Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: sparow on June 16, 2006, 04:51:02 PM
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Hi all,
First of all, I would like to thank all - management and users - for the work and effort in creating and keeping alive AvsA, former CT.
I must say that CT was, and still is, the one of the main reasons to keep my interest in AH for all these years. The challenges, the setups, the people, in this arena, all contribute to give me a rewarding experience and, although I hardly put more than 35/40 hours of flying time per month, I find them rewarding and satisfying.
Beeing a true fan of historical correction and maximum realism as possible in a simulation, I only regret the low numbers that I find regularly in AvA when I am present. I do not know if it is different in other time zones - I'm in Europe - but, for the posts I have read, looks like the arena is having trouble in atracting players.
How can this be solved without transforming AvA in a transvestite MA? And, why should we need much more numbers? Basically, IMHO, we have to choose if we attract more people or if we transform AvA in some kind of "experten ghetto" for realism freaks...Neither solution is good, really...
So, in AvA we have some of the finest maps I ever saw online and no one to fill them...I feel sad when I log into Fin/Rus scenario and there is not enough people to fill two squadrons rosters...No bombing formations, no tank battles, nothing...Only - although very satisfying - endless dogfigthing between the same pilots...
It happens in the BoB scenario, the Fin/Rus scenario, it happens in whatever scenario is uploaded. Why? Why aren't the buffs attracted to AvA? Why aren't the tank fans driven to some of the best scenarios ever designed for massive tank battles?
I think about this many times...and, although I am sure that I do not have the magic answer, I faced myself many times with one possible answer: purpose.
AvA lacks purpose. Let me try to explain myself better. What would motivate a group of buffs to show up and fill the skies with bombers - and the land with craters? A point, some reward, the feeling that they are not there just to add to some fighter jock tally. And maybe status, prizes, perks. Maybe. The same applies to the gv chaps. Or the gunners of the world...
OTOH, AH, like many other WW2 combat sims, was developed and based in hard-core fighter pilots culture. All is based in fighter power and fighter combat. So, we could choose another approach: make smaller maps, with less area and fields, just for fighters, but where it would be possible for fighters to attain a geographical superiority without the need for bombers, gv's or fleets. But that would be a crippled AvA...
Another thought: why not create smaller historical setups, not of battles, but of operations? Instead of trying to recreate Midway, do Pearl Harbour instead. Instead trying to do Kursk, a smaller historical setup, a tactical battle with very definite objectives. For instance: in BoB the LW objective would be closing all RAF airfields - not invading the island - and RAF duty would be to defend it, not bombing France in an early Normandy landing...
In the Med, why not smaller operations, why not Malta, why not Crete or Greece? In the PTO, smaller ops, where the goals would be very definite.
I know that I am not inventing the wheel, but...I would like to see more people in, and the absolute need to have strategic or, at least, tactic objectives and coordination.
With the actual low numbers, we could - if it would be possible, wich I know is not - to have an historical allocation of aircraft per field and expect attrition to present his bill by resetting the map when one of the parts spent all his aircraft, either in futile doghfights, flying accidents or simple hangar bombing. That would give some brand new perspective regarding an aircrafts cost and operational value.
I also think that, should the AvA go to "experten ghetto", that some things should be tweaked a little bit: no radio comms between aircraft that historically didn't carry radios, no radar where there was any, hell, not even medium range icons!
The problem with the lack of some aircraft may be restrictive to build some historical setups. Lets build the possible ones and not invent "tropicalised" JU88's in the Pacific. They're allright in the Mediterranean. In Stalingrad they need winter conversion...
How to solve this dillema? What do you chaps think about it? How to bring more people in and - don't get me wrong - the right people for AvA?
How can we save ourselves from extinction? We must evolve, otherwyse, we die...
Sparrow
249 Squadron RAF "Gold Coast"
Pugnis et calcibus
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Originally posted by sparow
So, in AvA we have some of the finest maps I ever saw online and no one to fill them...I feel sad when I log into Fin/Rus scenario and there is not enough people to fill two squadrons rosters...No bombing formations, no tank battles, nothing...Only - although very satisfying - endless dogfigthing between the same pilots...
It sounds exactly like what the MA furballer types say they want. No toolshedders, no land grab, just endless dogfighting. Sounds perfect for them, wonder why they are not here. Maybe they can't fly their favorite aircraft.
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Funny thing, now that you mentioned it, you might be right!
As it is to be the real MA furballer paradise, shangri-la of all lone wolves, mother of all eternal dogfights, the only thing that's missing is an outrageous mix of uber-planes, free for all...
Maybe if we let this out they all migrate to AvA and leave MA for those like us that still believe in strategy, resource management, planned missions, sweeps, CAPs, RESCAPS and those pesky annoying things that stop us of getting 75 kills in one evening...
Maybe even go back to life Chuck Yeagar's flight model...no stall, no spins, no problems. Better, let's play Carmageddon, has more gore by fps...
Nice point, nicely put.
Thanks,
Sparrow
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Originally posted by Lye-El
It sounds exactly like what the MA furballer types say they want. No toolshedders, no land grab, just endless dogfighting. Sounds perfect for them, wonder why they are not here. Maybe they can't fly their favorite aircraft.
You are 100% correct
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Sparrow, you had some good points in there. I think it's the people who fly in the AvA that make it such a unique and pleasant environment... Historical plane sets don't appeal to everyone, I guess. Or people just don't know about the AvA, it's easier to click on the Main, that's where all the others are. :confused:
But for the smaller battles, with a certain purpose, there are the Special Events here in AH, like snapshots every week and scenarios every now and then.
I admit, AvA has been pretty quiet during Euro-time lately. But it's summer now, I expect to see more people there after the summer. Our squad will have squad nights, at least..
Cheers. :)
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The reason is like Lye said. They can't fly their favorite plane. The other reason is that some people like varied fights.
Last night, the furball was good. The problem is, if you were Allied, you furballed in the Spit V or P-40E. I saw 95% Zekes, 4% Tonies, and 1% Vals.
The furball itself is something that, for example, Lazs would enjoy for a little bit, but he'd get bored with it because of the lack of variety. (not putting words in his mouth, he's said this himself on numerous occasions over the years.)
The "true" furballer wants the furball we had last night, but with all the similar performing planes available to both sides, so you would see, again for example, a Zeke fighting a Zeke.
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Hi all!
Pannzer, I really appreciate the effort that the staff has put into AvA. I raised this topic because I really wish that AvA becomes a meeting point for all those that enjoy - not allways balanced - historical engagements.
I speak against myself because I mainly fly fighters - some will say very poorly :-) - and i'm an even worse bomber pilot and I rarely fly the big ones...
But why do we need such big maps when we do have so low numbers? Why do we have such complex maps when we have no bombers to destroy strategic targets and force heavy fighter defense that would force fighter escorts?
Are we setting our sights too high? Are we trying to create MA sizelike maps to 20 players? That's my point...No one tries to capture a field when one has 3 or 4 players online. Unless...
Unless rules were a bit different. Like making easier to knock an airfield out of action for a while. How long it takes to fill 20 or 30 small craters in a runway and make it safe for operations? Two hours? Close the field for two hours...How many planes you destroy starfing a hangar? Four? That means one third or one fourth of a squadron plane allocation...How long would it take to replace these planes? More than one day, I think...
On CV scenarios how many planes fit in one CV? How much time is needed to replace a sunken CV? Months...
In a simpler map, we could focus on very definite tactical objectives...one factory, one refinery, one town. If airfields could be knocked out with more ease, it would pay to sweep enemy airfields and force your adversary to take-off from further away fields...You would not gain terrain but you would gain tactical advantage.
Ok, now some ideas to bring in more people, especially bomber pilots and gv drivers: instead the flimsy 3 ship formations, give them a 12 ship formation. Instead of the lonely tank, give every tanker a full combat column of armour, tanks, aa armoured vehicles and troop carriers.
Now some ideas to scare off people: force pilots to fly 5 bomber missions prior to be able to get a fighter. Make them land it or fly 5 more bomber missions. That would have several major advantages: first, you would have more bombers in the air. Second, the fighters would fly less recklessly. Third, I would like to escort or be escorted by my squad mates if I was in a bomber or in a fighter...
So:
We may keep large maps, then we need more people.
We make maps smaller, fighter oriented, we need different rules.
We go into "experten mode", and everybody goes away...
And what about drafting? What if, to access MA, you had to do 1 ToD in AvA? Err...or should it be the other way around? Gee, now I totally confused myself!
On a more serous note, AvA people is not average MA client...Why not exploit this "difference"? Why not transform AvA in the "Top Gun School" for WW2 air combat? We do not want MA style arena? We make it the thoughest, hardest, the most demanding experience ever created in a WW2 air combat simulation.
Who cares if we're 20? Let's fly 200 miles to pick a fight, lets fly without radar and gps maps when airborne. Let's go "orthodox" and go as near as possible of the real thing. Let's make it so hard that people says: «AvA? Are u crazy? Its full of geeks, just waiting to chew you up!». Lets have night and fog and low cloud.
Hey, why don't we setup a date, day and hour and all registered pilots in AvA meet in one "Big Meeting" every month? Maybe not all all over the world but as many as we could manage to gather up?
That would be nice, let's do it in one Saturday, that would allow some to log in before sunrise, others at noon, others at sunset, others even in the evening. How many would we gather? 100? 200?
Thank you all for supporting AvA.
Sparrow
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I think the reasons the furballers stay in the MA is that the limited planeset is unappealing to a lot, and there is more action in the MA. I've run into some very good pilots in the AvA, but I still don't really buy the argument that the average skill level is higher in the AvA.
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Originally posted by Urchin
I think the reasons the furballers stay in the MA is that the limited planeset is unappealing to a lot, and there is more action in the MA. I've run into some very good pilots in the AvA, but I still don't really buy the argument that the average skill level is higher in the AvA.
I don' t think the average skill level is higher, but with small numbers, you are far more likely to run into the skilled players (and get shot down :) )
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Originally posted by Urchin
I think the reasons the furballers stay in the MA is that the limited planeset is unappealing to a lot, and there is more action in the MA. I've run into some very good pilots in the AvA, but I still don't really buy the argument that the average skill level is higher in the AvA.
Perhaps not, but if you are a skilled player, you do not have the added bonus of being boths skilled and having a plane that outclasses your target's. Your opponent is also more focused on you because generally, with fewer players, there is less likelihood of a Cherry Picker coming in unnoticed from 15K feet. And finally, even a bum like me can occasionally land 5 kills in the MA because I ran into a fleet of Noobs . . . no fleet of noobs in the AvA. That is, the "average" skill level may not be higher, but there are fewer at the extreme low end.
My take, anyway.
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Originally posted by Urchin
I think the reasons the furballers stay in the MA is that the limited planeset is unappealing to a lot, and there is more action in the MA. I've run into some very good pilots in the AvA, but I still don't really buy the argument that the average skill level is higher in the AvA.
I actually agree with almost all of this. I think the AVERAGE skill level probably is higher in AvA, as Brauno says. But this isn't an arena of Top Guns by any means. Otherwise, despite all the whining about how they just really want a good furball and a good fight, the top MA pilots really want to have their favorite planes and a school of small fish to feed on.
My take, at least.
- oldman
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Originally posted by sparow
Who cares if we're 20? Let's fly 200 miles to pick a fight, lets fly without radar and gps maps when airborne. Let's go "orthodox" and go as near as possible of the real thing. Let's make it so hard that people says: «AvA? Are u crazy? Its full of geeks, just waiting to chew you up!». Lets have night and fog and low cloud.
Hey, why don't we setup a date, day and hour and all registered pilots in AvA meet in one "Big Meeting" every month? Maybe not all all over the world but as many as we could manage to gather up?
That would be nice, let's do it in one Saturday, that would allow some to log in before sunrise, others at noon, others at sunset, others even in the evening. How many would we gather? 100? 200?
Sparrow
I like it alot!!! :aok
wat do yall think ??
staff?
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I don't like the idea of changing the strat/field/bomber/gv system. I think that ToD will appeal to those who like tackling big bomber formations and bombing strategic targets.
I DO like the idea of a once a month AvA-athon where everyone gets together and have some wicked missions. I believe that Filth was doing this for a while. Basically, all it would take is 5-10 guys in bomber formations, with 5-10 guys in escorts to go fight it out against 15-20 interceptors.
As far as people not flying b/c their favorite plane isn't there...I think there are enough rotations to get all the planes in at some point.
Finally...I think for late war planes, air spawns are key! 190s and P51s really do best above 20K. One of the maps may have had this, but I can't remember. It would be nice if this feature was included in the last stage of every RPS. (or 10K for midset, then 20K for the last set).
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Sparow has made some good points and I like most of his ideas, especially the one about purpose and rewards. I believe that one big motivator in the MA is scoring, although many players say it doesn't matter - a claim I'm very sceptical about. It's the simplest form of rewarding, but at least it's something. Should HTC make AvA statistics too or would it only bring stat padders?
I have a feeling that the new CT is going to replace AvA. That is, IF it will ever be released... It's historical and realistic arena with rewards like medals and promotions. So it should have everything AvA has and more? Or am I missing something?
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Originally posted by teeri
Sparow has made some good points and I like most of his ideas, especially the one about purpose and rewards. I believe that one big motivator in the MA is scoring, although many players say it doesn't matter - a claim I'm very sceptical about. It's the simplest form of rewarding, but at least it's something. Should HTC make AvA statistics too or would it only bring stat padders?
AH already has AvsA statistics / scores same as the MA........they just don't list them on the Homepage in BOLD TEXT each campaign.......
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Damn, you're right! Why haven't I noticed it before :) Ok, clearly it doesn't attract people to AvA, so we have to come up with something else.
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those of us that play this arena. enjoy the fact that it is not as populated as the MA. you get some great fights with 10-20 people on. the Key for the staff is to not run unpopular sets. this current set has been fun to me but the arena has been devoid of even the regulars. I guess that the spit drivers are intimidated by the zeke, you can't just yank and bank your way to victory you must actually think and fight. I was in the MA this AM for about five minutes, I played in a Ki61 even though I was lower three players all in late war planes would not come down to engage!!!! eventually I climbed up up enough to have a late comer (P38G) come down to engage. I shot him down after chasing him 1/2 way back to his base. the others were too timid to give up their vultch perches. The MA absolutely sucks IMHO. I don't think I'll even bother with the TOD/CT abomination if it involves any AI at all. If the AvA were to be disbanded I'd be done with AH. A friend and former AH player is working on some pretty exciting developements in a competitor game. they are currently running open beta tests, if they continue to develope along the current lines I will probably be playing there most of the time.
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Originally posted by sparow
Beeing a true fan of historical correction and maximum realism as possible in a simulation,
What you doing in the AvA then?
Been shown time and time again it's not historical planesets.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
What you doing in the AvA then?
Been shown time and time again it's not historical planesets.
Why do you care?
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Originally posted by Kev367th
What you doing in the AvA then?
Been shown time and time again it's not historical planesets.
Heh.
It's still far more historical than the MA, dude.
- oldman
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Originally posted by sparow
Who cares if we're 20? Let's fly 200 miles to pick a fight, lets fly without radar and gps maps when airborne. Let's go "orthodox" and go as near as possible of the real thing. Let's make it so hard that people says: «AvA? Are u crazy? Its full of geeks, just waiting to chew you up!». Lets have night and fog and low cloud.
Sparrow
I think that sounds perfect Sparrow and would definitely draw me back to the AvA. But you will never cut through the red tape that the AvA is. Logic isn't a tool that gets things done.
But I am glad to see you take up the "fight" :) There are quite a few that share your opinion of what the AvA could be, most have just become tired of working towards change without any progress.
But I wish you the best of luck Your ideas and enthusiasm are great!
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Originally posted by Slash27
Why do you care?
I was going to post a lengthy reply to this, but if you really can't work out why numbers are low for the AvA try the following -
Look at the possibility of the AvA running as true AvA arena with planes being available when they historically were, as opposed to the personal playground for some LW squads with the resultant botched planesets.
Storch - I'm pretty sure I know which game and who your talking about. Been checking their forums recently, their planeset is going to be more unrealistic/flight of fancy than AH2's, although granted a much bigger choice.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Look at the possibility of the AvA running as true AvA arena with planes being available when they historically were, as opposed to the personal playground for some LW squads with the resultant botched planesets.
ah, a JG-54 bashing thread. Thats so 2004.:rolleyes:
Kev, you have nothing to back this up but your opinion. Im not here to change your opinion.
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Well my opinion yes, but I'm not the only one, go search some threads.
Botched planesets aren't my opinion - they are a FACT.
My whole squad flew in the AvA when it was launched just to try it out.
We flew the very first RPS.
Didn't mind or complain about the 1941 period, Vb v FW190, was historical after all.
Then came the changes -
WAAAAAAH the LW are at a disadvantage in mid/late 1944 - No problem, we'll just add the D9 4 months ahead of time.
Funny how during the 1941 period no Spit Vb pilots complained about the disadvantage.
Next it was WAHHHHH the XVI is so imbalancing - No problem, we'll just pretend it never existed and omit it from scenarios it actuall flew in.
Funnily enough one of MAIN reasons it wasn't given it's 1944 25lbs boost was to make it more suitable for scenarios etc.
I'm actually trying to get it re-tagged as the LF IXe and given an optional 1943 loadout of .303's so we have the LF IXc also. What you going to do then? Pretend it didn't exist also.
Soon after we decided it just wasn't for us, either be historical or advertise for what it truly is -
Axis v botched Allies planeset.
As for getting "the right people", there's part of your problem, what makes you lot so special.
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Why I fly the AvA:
1. When that little dot appears out of the haze odds are it’s going to try to shoot you down.
2. More engagements in a given time period
3. Variety of engagements: You get some 1v1, some furballs, everything in between.
4. Variety of adversaries.
I personally don’t want alterations that change these things.
Notice I said –personally-. I’ve no problem with guys that want some uber historical type of setup. What is mildly irritating is how it’s expressed.
“ I have a superior point of view, if the arena were my way it would be better. Anyone who doesn’t want it my way is inherently inferior. The lessor beings screw up any efforts to create a proper environment so they shall not be blessed with my presence. Hopefully, one day, the plebeians will ascend to my point of view.”
In all actuality this idiosyncratic mindset is an indicator of inferior intellectual functioning.
Historical play means (among other things): Flying as a group (squad) with a leader calling the shots. Said leader having a predetermined assignment No dar, one life, decreased visibility, no icons, no choice of planes, hours of just flying around, and maybe an average of one engagement every two sorties.
Here’s a clue. Squad ops are just like that. Go - play - have fun. An open arena where people wander in and out and do their own thing can’t be like that.
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Kev you could use the low numbers from the last two setups to back up your opinon. One of which Finn/Russ is always so highly toughted as the best. Don't bother though because they just won't listen .:lol
Vote with your feet and let em play themselves.
Most of your ideas are good ones sparrow, good luck I'd like to see you have some success with them. One thing though , you mentioned turning the AVA into an Expertan Ghetto....... I'd argue it's a ghetto already , and like all ghetteos people move out and leave it to the thugs.
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A word on numbers: Low numbers are not a problem. Get 60 people in the AvA and game play will be identical to the MA.
Now for something you can’t argue with:
If you want to know how to set up a WWII flight sim arena to attract the MOST numbers look at the MA. Never been any more populated and growing all the time.
Note to Kev: Set up a H2H arena the way you would like it with the planes the way you want them. I’m willing to wager that despite being free to the entire world you can’t keep 8 in there. At least you can fly in a correct environment.;)
Edit: Shifty, the thug remark cracked me up.:aok
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Originally posted by Shifty
Kev you could use the low numbers from the last two setups to back up your opinon. One of which Finn/Russ is always so highly toughted as the best. Don't bother though because they just won't listen .:lol
Vote with your feet and let em play themselves.
Most of your ideas are good ones sparrow, good luck I'd like to see you have some success with them. One thing though , you mentioned turning the AVA into an Expertan Ghetto....... I'd argue it's a ghetto already , and like all ghetteos people move out and leave it to the thugs.
Thats the problem, they are so wrapped up in thier own little world they can't, or refuse to see any problems.
They just sit and wonder why the numbers are low.
Why would you guess that the initial very high numbers in the AvA when it renamed has now dwindled back to the 'old core'.
How about NOTHING really changed apart from the name, and people very quickly reconised it for what it was, a sham.
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Originally posted by KONG1
Edit: Shifty, the thug remark cracked me up.:aok
Yeah I'm waiting for OM to come in and make the Shifty forgot to take his meds quoate any minute.;)
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Gentlemen, please...
Lets stay focused. I thank you all for your input, this is the kind of collective reflexion that is needed from time to time. Let's not personalize it, or divert to who has the best planes and when...
As you know, I fly 99,999% british and american aircraft and a few years have passed since I upped in other than bishop or allied colors. You may even think that it is silly of me to do so, I know it is, I miss the opportunity to fly very good machines like zekes, 109's and 190's. But that's a personal choice, I know that I am missing part of the experience but I accept that.
Tell me: why do we need such elaborate maps for so few pilots. Lets assume that we are not attract more than 20/30 players, tops. Why can't we have a map with 3 or 4 bases for each side, preferably, the closest possible to historical reality and two or three tactical targets? To dogfigth we need to have 30 fields to each side? No.
And if we keep the maps, why can´t we fill them up with pilots? Do we need to advertise AvA? Maybe.
About planesets...We ave difficulties in setting up some scenarios because there are a few models missing. That's a fact. But we could avoid "substitution" planesets. They are fictional, incorrect and, many times, they fail to do what they were supposed to do. Maybe we should stick with the ones we have and build the setups accordingly, even if a bit more repetitive.
But, if the maps where part of the large ones and the objectives were tactical, maybe we could use better the planes we currently have. For instance, MTO: instead of one big map, we could break it into several smaller maps, in sequence, depicting operations or even missions, instead of trying to re-enact a whole campaign...
CBI, early PTO, Greece or Cyprus, Malta, Aleutians and so on, are maps hardly used...
Ah, and another thing: I don't believe in balanced setups. Historically balanced switched regularly from one side to the other at the rithm of tecnical or industrial advances. The problem rises mostly from the fact that resources (planes) are unlimited here. More than one IJN carrier turned back home not because of damage, but because he had run out of planes and pilots...
About the monthly AvA bash, that might be a good idea. It would be fun.
One last thing: when I said "right people" I didn't wanted to look discriminating whatsoever. When I say that I mean people that enjoys historical engagements in demanding conditions.
Going to fly a bit now, will check our debate later,
Cya all soon,
Sparrow
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Originally posted by Kev367th
As for getting "the right people", there's part of your problem, what makes you lot so special.
Sign up chief. Come on and join the staff and make it perfect. I mean, waht the hell do we know? Its not like we were players in the CT long before we signed up for the staff. Want in the AvA Development Group forum? I can make that happen right now for you.
Nice cheap shots there Shifty. Very classy there bud:aok You want to step in and help? You think you have something to offer? Let me know.
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and while this debate plods on, I just logged off from the AvA where we had a total of ten players with everyone being careful not to let the sides become too unbalanced mostly everyone in spits v zekes no one higher than 8k and those were the timid cherrypickers lots of explosions and few kills actually landed. in short a great furball!!! when I didn't hear a sewing machine I knew a spit was saddling up and I needed to twist. exactly what my idea of an enjoyable sunday pm should be.
great fights all to reddog and skygnome for doing some amazing stuff in those spitVs.
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In fact Storch, I must agree with you - it was innevitable, I think - it was a very enjoyable furball. In fact, we only needed the CV and one field. All the rest was superfluous...
Fights between Spit V and A6M5 are very interesting. The fact of having more pilots than usual contributed to general amusement.
One thing stands out from tonight's action: AvA is a fighter-jock arena.
One idea: develop special maps for all TOD, few fields, no ack except mannable guns, nothing to take, only realistic planes- fighters only - match-up, low icons d's, realistic fuel consumption, friendly DAR only, killshooter OFF, and 1 big map, full of goodies, for the Monthly AvA Slugfest. One event a month to gather all "usual" squadrons, almost 4 weeks to research and get the thing going.
What do you think about this?
Note: separation between fields should never be less than 50 miles...maybe 75 would be better.
Salute,
Sparrow
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Originally posted by Slash27
Nice cheap shots there Shifty. Very classy there bud:aok You want to step in and help? You think you have something to offer? Let me know.
I think you take it all a little to personally Slash and allow you're emotions get the best of you and your intentions end up turning out as negative, imo. I mean that contructively and not as any kind of a poke.
As for the AvA development group, I say don't even bother it is a waste of time. It is just another form of the "red tape" of the AvA. I wish it was a different case and my opinion might be completely different from yours but it is my opinion.
I'd sign up any day, but you and I both know that won't happen. Especially under the terms I asked for.
"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”.
Albert Einstein[/b]
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Originally posted by Slash27
Nice cheap shots there Shifty. Very classy there bud:aok You want to step in and help? You think you have something to offer? Let me know.
Yeah I have a lot to offer. Actually I have offered in the past. Once even in an e-mail to you. I doubt you want my help any more now then you did then.
My shots are no cheaper than yours. Since your talking about cheap shots,, this board is nothing but cheap shots. You got a guy who finds a way to take cheap shots at the Allies in every post. Nothing ever gets said to him.
Many cheap shots are made by you, and usually because somebody questions the AVA staff. Just because somebody questions how things are done , or even complains about how things are doesn't mean you need to automatically turn on the sarcasm button. Your on the staff, couldnt you handle it better? You could have replied in a different manner to see if there was a way to see Kevs point or make your point clearer to him. Your response Why do you care? Pretty much says it all, you ethier don't care , or are of the opinon the AVA staff should never be questioned. Your response is usually like that if anyone has a complaint. So if you want to mention a lack of class,,,, look in the mirror.
I don't always agree with Oldman, but at least he seems to try and understand what the player is talking about, and reason out an answer.
What Kev said isn't the only reason numbers are down, but has a lot to do with it.
You want the numbers up? Run the RPS. Thats when you get the most numbers. Allow the planes in when they should be.
One last thing to remember. I agree Luftwaffe planes are harder to learn as a whole. So Quote me!
However they are some of the most leathel machines in the game. Once somebody learns to fly them they should be able to handle anybody in anything.
Out of necessity except for PTO's every setup will contain 109s,110's and usually 190s. Therefore the guys that love those planes get to fly those planes every setup. I understand why this has to be. However what you guys are failing to notice is.................They become incredably proficient in them. Yet they get to complain about Allied models , insult Allied players , all while flying their favorite aircraft almost every setup. While the Allies usually fly a limited plane set of whatever the AVA staff decides is fair. Many times after lots of input by the guys flying the 109s and 190s, on this very board. So you have guys flying their favorite rides each setup against guys that have different aircraft be they Brit, US, or Russian. The only time this doesn't happen is when you run an RPS starting with BOB.
The fact that none of you on the staff havent picked up on this yet tells me your not paying attention to why the numbers are down. You can't give one side their favorites each setup, while you limit the other side and expect numbers.
Slash this is not an attack on the staff. Reading this board and seeing what I see , has led me to this opinon. I've given up on the AVA , along with quite a few others. This place has gotten to the point where it's actually more enjoyable to fly in the MA. Thats something I never thought I'd say.
I'm actually rooting for you guys Slash, and I hope you pull it out of the dive.
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I think Shifty just about covered it all.
As for logging off with a GRAND total of 10 players in the AvA Storch -
Must be nice to have a company that allows a tiny, weeny, itty bit of the community as a whole to treat a server as their own personal playground.
You can't actually be happy that you had only 10 people out of whats available, 600 in the MA?
Makes you wonder how long it will be allowed to continue as the demands on the MA continue to increase.
A lot of people were expecting big things when the name changed, unfortuneately thats all it was, a name change with business as usual.
Just checked arena numbers 11.30pm EST -
MA - 490
AvA - 4
TA - 21
Makes you wonder huh?
[edit] Thinking about it, if you want balance you do have a choice.
There were two periods when neither side really had a big advantage -
1940, and 1942-43.
That cuts out the LW big advantage in 1941, and the allies big advantage 1944-45.
Easy aint it.
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nerfed planeset? what you are seeing is the axis planes have improved ever so slightly that is all. the spits are still very easy to fly, probably as they should be. with regard to 10 people in a fight, that is essentially what you have at any given base in the MA when I play which is usually before 0800 EST. when the MA fills near capacity you essentially have hordes of pork shedders ignoring each other enroute to their next remaxing venture. not my idea of fun. the fact is that in my opinion you cannot find a fight equal to the worst fight in the AvA in the MA on it's best day. here's what I find amusing. we have people who seldomly play the arena complaining about game play they don't participate in. on the few occassions they do show up. they play for about 10-15 minutes with amazing timidity, get shot down then run away to hide under the proverbial porch. there are some of us that play every day. with that type of exposure one can only improve. that would go equally to axis and allied players as well as guys like some of the gunfighters which are very proficient in any ride. the ten guys that play the arena regularly do so because inspite of all the flaws with the AvA they like it. is that fact lost on any of you? I think the real problem is you guys just can't compete against the regulars in their element. there's spits in their right now. next week you'll have seafires. why not bring your bad selves in there and show us how the big boys do it downtown? I personally will even stay in the Ki61 until you guys start ganging as you inevitably must. I don't think your individual playing skills will be up to the challenge.
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Oh geez, would all dweebs please check their egos at the door.
I admit it, us non AvA guys are crap, not worthy to share the same server, happy now?
Nerfed wasn't referring to performance - It was referring to the crippled allied planeset that accompanies most AvA setups.
a) Spit XVI is a perfect example - Can't have it even it was available as it unbalances the arena (allegedly).
b) Can't have the LW as a disadvantage in 1944 so we'll enable the D9 4 months early.
c) But we can have the RAF at a disadvantage all through 1941.
Looks like BS, smells like BS, generally is BS.
No-one saying 10 guys weren't enjoying themselves, but ask yourself this -
Seems like on average you have less than 5% of the total available players in the AvA.
How long you do think HT will continue to leave a server for a minute percentage of players to run their own personal trainset, with CT on the way, and the continuing increasing pressure on the MA server.
The all new AvA started with such promise, then descended very quickly back to it's roots.
As for running away, on the very few occasions I've met you in the MA you've been in your K4 running for the clouds looking for an easy cherry.
Learn that in the AvA?
So why do you think the AvA gets CONSISTENLY very low attendance?
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Oh geez, would all dweebs please check their egos at the door.
I admit it, us non AvA guys are crap, not worthy to share the same server, happy now?
Nerfed wasn't referring to performance - It was referring to the crippled allied planeset that accompanies most AvA setups.
a) Spit XVI is a perfect example - Can't have it even it was available as it unbalances the arena (allegedly).
b) Can't have the LW as a disadvantage in 1944 so we'll enable the D9 4 months early.
c) But we can have the RAF at a disadvantage all through 1941.
Looks like BS, smells like BS, generally is BS.
No-one saying 10 guys weren't enjoying themselves, but ask yourself this -
Seems like on average you have less than 5% of the total available players in the AvA.
How long you do think HT will continue to leave a server for a minute percentage of players to run their own personal trainset, with CT on the way, and the continuing increasing pressure on the MA server.
The all new AvA started with such promise, then descended very quickly back to it's roots.
As for running away, on the very few occasions I've met you in the MA you've been in your K4 running for the clouds looking for an easy cherry.
Learn that in the AvA?
So why do you think the AvA gets CONSISTENLY very low attendance?
Is this how you are in real life? Just running around screaming " im a victim!!" while you spew misinformation and lies while pretending to be some kind of voice for whats "really going on"? What the hell is your issue anyway? You can back up nothing of what you type but the D9 being added 4 months early (one day) in a RPS. Honestly. Whats wrong with you?
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Originally posted by Shifty
Yeah I have a lot to offer. Actually I have offered in the past. Once even in an e-mail to you. I doubt you want my help any more now then you did then.
My shots are no cheaper than yours. Since your talking about cheap shots,, this board is nothing but cheap shots. You got a guy who finds a way to take cheap shots at the Allies in every post. Nothing ever gets said to him.
Many cheap shots are made by you, and usually because somebody questions the AVA staff. Just because somebody questions how things are done , or even complains about how things are doesn't mean you need to automatically turn on the sarcasm button. Your on the staff, couldnt you handle it better? You could have replied in a different manner to see if there was a way to see Kevs point or make your point clearer to him. Your response Why do you care? Pretty much says it all, you ethier don't care , or are of the opinon the AVA staff should never be questioned. Your response is usually like that if anyone has a complaint. So if you want to mention a lack of class,,,, look in the mirror.
I see. Im supposed to entertain what amounts to lies from Kev because Im on the staff. Im also supposed to tolerate being refered to as a "thug" by you because you think as Kev does, that we cater to certain group in the AvA. Nothing to back this up but you think you have a free pass to make baseless accusations. Ok, my bad.
Originally posted by Shifty
Kev you could use the low numbers from the last two setups to back up your opinon. One of which Finn/Russ is always so highly toughted as the best. Don't bother though because they just won't listen .:lol
Vote with your feet and let em play themselves.
Most of your ideas are good ones sparrow, good luck I'd like to see you have some success with them. One thing though , you mentioned turning the AVA into an Expertan Ghetto....... I'd argue it's a ghetto already , and like all ghetteos people move out and leave it to the thugs.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I could care less what you or anyone elses opinion of me is on the matter. I wont apologize for defending guys like Oldman,Duke,Panzzer, and Fork against unfounded allegations from some one who has some chip on thier shoulder about God knows what. Those guys put alot of effort out of thier day for the AvA. Much more than I do for sure. Of course its not enough for some of you. It never will be. Your only solution is to focus on what to grief about. How easy is that?
Im nothing more than a reserve staffer. I have been for about a year now. If some one thinks they can breathe new life into the AvA and can bring about some awe inspiring change to bring the arena back from the abyss. Come on with it.
The CT was dead. When it changed to the AvA we went with the RPS. Things were looking good again. Now its summer time. Even when the old CT was at its prime it didnt have near the same numbers as it did during fall and winter. Fall come around things will pick back up. Or, we can have this BBS grief fest and do everything possible to drag the AvA down and make it the ghost town the CT was. But no worries, youll have the staff to blame for your unhappiness while you grief away and refuse to lift a finger or take any initiative, come up with any ideas, or focus on the positive.Wont matter if you do anyway. Youll never get through all that "AvA red tape".
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Kev
I have always had tons of respect for your knowledge and for you as a person but your behaviour in regards to the AvA situation is imho quite poor. Man you have tons of knowledge but instead of using it to improve something that you feel beeing wrong you use it to obeserve and whine.
Why not instead use that huge amount of knowledge you have to help improve the arena and the plane sets?
Then you might actually realize two things first of all the CMs arnt as LW biased as you think. If someone sudgests something its usually not a problem getting it in if you can motivate it. Second you will notice its damn hard to create good historical and time accurate planesets due to the huge gaps in the plane sets. This is extreamly obvious on the east front and pacific front.
If its so that the AvA game play isnt to your liking and you dont feel that you want to invest your energy in helping improving it then that is fine. But then you dont have any right to whine either.
Anyways one of the worst things I know is people who run around playing smart arse instead of beeing constructive.
Tex
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Geez Slash the ghetto remark wasn't aimed at the staff it was aimed at Storch.:lol As usual he is at it again, talking about how great he is and how everybody else is timid and sucks. Thats what I meant when I said people move out and leave the ghetto to the thugs. Mix that kind of constant behavior from the same individuals along with the fact those same people get the aircraft they want most setups , and theres one of your reasons for low numbers.
It's not JG54 bashing.. It's called being fed up.
Slash
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Originally posted by Slash27
the D9 being added 4 months early (one day) in a RPS. Honestly. Whats wrong with you?
Heh. This was pretty funny, I think Kev probably didn't recognize that it was just a one-day thing.
If I can pull any sense out of the criticisms here, it seems to me that there is some concern that those who fly LW rides get favored treatment. Certainly the staff is not trying to favor anyone. Flying G6s and A8s against P-51s, Spitfires and P-38s is a challenge - try it, you'll see. I'm more inclined to think that Shifty has a point, which is that anyone who regularly flies a particular plane type will get pretty good at it. Isn't this unavoidable? If someone is willing to bite the bullet and get good at flying the G6, for example, should we enable Tempests on the Allied side to compensate for his increased skill?
This isn't a rhetorical question. I've heard the gripes, now I'd like to hear the proffered solutions.
- oldman
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Enable the European RPS on a constant rotation for 6 months.
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Originally posted by TheBug
Enable the European RPS on a constant rotation for 6 months.
So, no more Tunisia, or Russian or blue planes?
- oldman
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Correct!
A necessary sacrifice to redefine the arena.
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Dear AvA staff,
Thank you for your time and effort in providing these setups for us.
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I disagree with thebug. while I personally prefer to be a 109 every day there are others that prefer other rides. the setups have been challenging. this is what makes them good to some of us. this particular setup has been extremely frustrating for me. The only plane I like in the IJ inventory is the Ki61. try flying that against N7, reddog or 1duke1 if they are in spitVs. the outcomes of fights between the spitv and the zeke have all come down to the skill of the players. this is exactly the kind of setup we need to see more of. The idea for the setup was came from the fertile if not somewhat devious mind of MrFork but the refinement into what it is, came from TexMurphy. One can hardly say that the AvA staff is not receptive to ideas from the players. On the contrary they have demonstrated that they are very open to suggestions and implement them fairly quickly if they are ideas of merit.
I agree with Tex regarding Kev, Kev's knowledge of things spitfire is respectable. In that spirit why not come up with your ideal setup Kev and present it in this fora, put it up for discussion.
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shifty, I'm not a great player, hell I'm not even good. however the second part of your statement, the one where you say I say you guys are timid, that part is indeed correct. you guys are amazingly timid. but thats ok we shoot down all comers, or die trying :aok
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Originally posted by storch
I disagree with thebug.
Valid points for keeping the AvA the way that it is, but isn't that the problem for most right now---The way that it is. I wished it worked out the way you're thinking Storch, but the past dictates otherwise. Speaking mostly in regards to low numbers. Without change there will be no change.
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Originally posted by storch
I disagree with thebug. while I personally prefer to be a 109 every day there are others that prefer other rides. the setups have been challenging. this is what makes them good to some of us. this particular setup has been extremely frustrating for me. The only plane I like in the IJ inventory is the Ki61. try flying that against N7, reddog or 1duke1 if they are in spitVs. the outcomes of fights between the spitv and the zeke have all come down to the skill of the players. this is exactly the kind of setup we need to see more of. The idea for the setup was came from the fertile if not somewhat devious mind of MrFork but the refinement into what it is, came from TexMurphy. One can hardly say that the AvA staff is not receptive to ideas from the players. On the contrary they have demonstrated that they are very open to suggestions and implement them fairly quickly if they are ideas of merit.
I agree with Tex regarding Kev, Kev's knowledge of things spitfire is respectable. In that spirit why not come up with your ideal setup Kev and present it in this fora, put it up for discussion.
Ok then let me think about it, given that
1) It's unlikely a slight pre or post D-Day scenario will fly as it would most probably involve having a XVI (LF IXe) in it
2) By the same token I wouldn't pick 1941
Bit of info Storch -
How much fun would your fights have been with a historical matched Spit v Zeke?
given the Spit would be -
1) Our old Vc
2) Seafire L III (basically naval version of our old Vc)
3) Spit VIII
4) Seafire L IIc, not the very early rare Seafire IIc we have.
5) Using a sub with a low alt performance similar to the LIII, for e.g. the F IX
Is there a list you use for aircraft service dates?
Funnily enough I was all for derating the old Vc, but it has shown up now as a big hole in the planeset.
a) Major variant early 42 through mid 43
b) Big part of early Far east scenarios
c) Perfect sub for the LIII, also needed Far East/Pacific scenarios.
Oh well :(
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Originally posted by Oldman731
If I can pull any sense out of the criticisms here, it seems to me that there is some concern that those who fly LW rides get favored treatment. Certainly the staff is not trying to favor anyone. Flying G6s and A8s against P-51s, Spitfires and P-38s is a challenge - try it, you'll see. I'm more inclined to think that Shifty has a point, which is that anyone who regularly flies a particular plane type will get pretty good at it. Isn't this unavoidable? If someone is willing to bite the bullet and get good at flying the G6, for example, should we enable Tempests on the Allied side to compensate for his increased skill?
- oldman
I guess the problem is I can't make the point in a way where it doesn't get under somebodys skin. No you should not have to enable the Tempest because Platano has become a monster in the G6. I would think thats absurd.
I would think the obvious solution would be the RPS. I also understand thats not a complete answer to the problem . I have not always been an Allied guy, I spent a lot of years as a LW in AW, and WB's plus a fair amount of time in AH in JG54, JG3, and the 27th Sentai. So I can understand the Axis point of view. The RPS has a problem in that the LW pilots are encountering so many different types at one time. That can suck too.
Still the RPS seems to be the best option. It also seems to draw the most numbers. I know this is not a popular theory but I think you could allow the blue planes , and the Japanse planes in the same RPS with the European based planes. I know some pureist will skoff at the idea , saying it's not historical. Then again how historical is the same few people killing each other between the same couple of bases week after week? Plus it would add a counter to the Axis for the Spits.
Just my opinon , and somebody can probably shoot it full of holes. Thanks for taking the time to listen OM.
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Bug, then my suggestion to you is the same as the one to Kev. think of a historic mission you would like to participate in, research the info and present it here, in the open, in this fora and let it's merits be debated by the interested parties.
the current AvA staff is possibly the best one we've had since I started playing. no more tyranical folks doing what ever they please. these folks (unlike you and I) don't seem to have a large amount of discreationary time on their hands.
Slash is a first responder
OM is an attorney
MrFork is busy raising a young family
The point is don't just gripe, think, research post for refinement and who knows.
I'm currently working on an idea and will post it soon. the key word is mission interesting specific missions.
as a hint I'm thinking of ploesti it will only run good for about a week. it will take the talents of people like filth and yourself. I'm hoping for a sunday, tuesday and thursday run. I'd like to see the bombers not say when they will attack only what time the mission will occur.
I'm thinking operation tidal wave 1 Aug. 1943
177 B-24s
230 P38s and P40s
I'm not sure what the axis upped in defense but it matters little since we probably don't have it. maybe white13 will know he's very knowledgable on this topic.
go ahead and accuse me of "swaying the staff to do my bidding"
:D
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Originally posted by storch
shifty, I'm not a great player, hell I'm not even good. however the second part of your statement, the one where you say I say you guys are timid, that part is indeed correct. you guys are amazingly timid. but thats ok we shoot down all comers, or die trying :aok
LOL what color are the trees on your planet?
Keep living the dream bro, your just about to have the whole place all to yourself.:aok
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In regard to the Pacific / Far East planeset, is there an official what stands in for what.
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Kev the seafire will be in this week IIRC. remember it's an RPS. all the planesets have "holes" in them. the most glaring is the VVS and IJ. the most complete are the german and american followed closely by the british. we may never see a complete plane set for any country it doesn't detract from making workable equally challenging setups for people to spend a few leisurely hours of entertainment in.
come up with a setup, I'm sure it will be welcomed.
shifty, any one of us can be replaced as quickly as hole in water is filled. :aok
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Originally posted by storch
Bug, then my suggestion to you is the same as the one to Kev. think of a historic mission you would like to participate in, research the info and present it here, in the open, in this fora and let it's merits be debated by the interested parties.
Done that a few times. But that's not the point, I am not arguing for what planeset I would like to see. I am arguing for tactics to increase the AvA population. European RPS on a continuous basis or possibly a full planeset RPS. I am redefining the arena not tweaking setups, that has been done before. The other theaters lack the planeset at the moment to justify a RPS. Just a little thinking "out of a box":) that has become quite small. And in know way to I mean to imply the Staff themselves are not receptive to ideas, in fact I sometimes think they are too receptive. :D
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Problem with our Seafire - It only existed with the Merlin 46 for a very short period of time. Only delivered with the Merlin 46 for 4 months before the switch to the Merlin 32, then the Merlin 46 ones were all re-engined with the Merlin 32 also.
All the pics from operation Avalanche (Sept 43) show clipped Merlin 32 Seafire L IIc's
As an added bonus - It appears from pictures that a very large number of the Merlin 32 IIc's and the Seafire LIII's were clipped. In fact yet to see a pic of Merlin 32 Seafire un-clipped.
Found out by accident while researching the sharksmouth Seafire skin.
A big difference - Yup the Merlin 32 ran at 18lbs boost max.
Something I've been asking Pyro to change, with no luck up to now.
Agreed theres always going to holes, it a question of making them as small as possible, whilst making sure the planes partly filling the big holes are representative.
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so bug, if I understand you correctly your idea is to have an arena more like MA but this one with a rolling planeset?
I hear you Kev but the 109s aren't representative of all modifications either. certainly not at their apex. the G14 in it's current iteration is still far from documented wartime performance. the 190s aren't even close to what they actually were. the Ki84 is a representation of an early model, the gripes applies equally to all planes. one could argue that the current roster best supports balanced gameplay in all arenas. don't you think an 18lb boosted spitV would be the only thing flown anywhere. the spitV we currently have aquits itself very well against tthe A6M5 as this setup has clearly demonstrated.
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I think the point was with the Seafire IIc only the initial 4 month batch of 110 were delivered with the Merlin 46, up to Oct 42.
From Nov 42 they had the Merlin 32, 300 (approx) built.
Then the orignal Merlin 46 ones were then refitted with the Merlin 32.
Suppose my gripe is -
110 as Merlin 46 over a 4 month period
v
300 as Merlin 32 up to end of production, plus the original 110 refitted with Merlin 32.
Which one would you consider the representative version?
Also as a Merlin 32 it would be far more suitable (although still below the performance) as a Seafire L III (1400 built) stand in
Not as though as a Merlin 32 it was rare bird, all Seafire II's ended up as Merlin 32 L IIc's.
Irony is with 110 built it makes it the 2nd most rare plane in the game lol.
But point taken about modificaions.
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Originally posted by storch
so bug, if I understand you correctly your idea is to have an arena more like MA but this one with a rolling planeset?
Well yes and no. All the standard settings used in the AvA to date would be used, not sure if that differs from the MA or not? I also wouldn't be opposed to stricter DAR setups, but sticking with setup parameters in place would be fine.
The European RPS would be done exactly as it was before, but once the last day is reached it resets and starts over.
The full planeset is more along an Axis versus Allies line. The full planeset would be implemented through the month based upon service date and playability. The maps used could be rotated, weekly or monthly whatever keeps interest up.
I guess it does become a bit more like the MA but at least there won't be any Spits vs Spits or Mustangs versus La7s etc. I really like the format used in the AvA right now though. Sure everybody has a complaint about this setup or that that is inevitable. But no matter how much I like it the numbers don't support it. Having more in the training arena most night is just plain silly. I really think giving the RPS 6 months to blossom would allow the AvA to really develop the average number of players.
So again increasing the player base would be the goal. I understand this isn't necessarily a desire for some players already in the AvA and implementing the RPS would basically dismantle what has been known to be the AvA to this point. It's just an idea to get more people interested.
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Bug, does that mean all axis planes as one country and all allied planes in the other?
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I think that may his point Storch. I know it's the point I was trying to make.
It would give some of the planes not flown much in the AVA a chance and might bring in new blood on both sides. Not just Allied.
Maybe they have been included but the I never recall seeing a C205 in the AVA. The 202 , N1K2 , are rare enough. It would be nice to if they got included in the RPS wih all the other Axis , and Allied rides.
[EDIT] All the planes but still Axis vs Allied.
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Originally posted by storch
Bug, does that mean all axis planes as one country and all allied planes in the other?
Yes, so the last day(s) of the RPS would see all planes enabled but split between historical sides.
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Kev
The PTO setup we have now is NOT date based. Reason it aint date based is that we dont have the planes to do that. It goes from "roughly early war" to "roughly late war" via "roughly mid war".
Personally I think its a better way of handling it then going by exact dates. As you say not even the spits can be placed well into a dated rps, yet less the jap planes with all the gaps in their lineup.
You would know this if you would have read the thread which came up with the plane set.
For the next RPS we are most likely going to norway, if that map will be ready in time.
Im gonna challange you by creating a thread "Kev´s Norway RPS". Please provide us with a good setup for the norway map.
Tex
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duh, never occurred to me. I could go for that. I would probably play a lot early to mid then late war might not be fun, but who knows. I think late war would be the most popular with most players though.
players interested should sound off on this idea.
I say let's give it a whirl for one month then see how it goes.
would you suggest weekly map changes?
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Originally posted by storch
duh, never occurred to me. I could go for that. I would probably play a lot early to mid then late war might not be fun, but who knows. I think late war would be the most popular with most players though.
players interested should sound off on this idea.
I say let's give it a whirl for one month then see how it goes.
would you suggest weekly map changes?
I personally like weekly map changes, but wouldn't want to press it knowing the efforts needed by staffers to keep the RPS going. Not sure on the amount of work needed to change a map during the RPS and would hate to assume it is something easily done.
Here is an old post with a VERY rough layout for the planeset. It still needs a lot of work, meant it just as laying the foundation.
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=171905
I say give it a try for 6 months, I really don't think a one month test would be conclusive. But better than nothing.
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Well, I think we waved a little bit along the lines of our debate but we are almost getting there...
Let me try to resume what I read so far:
1 - everyone ignores the maps issue;
2 - AvA will keep low numbers;
3 - one solution to improve AvA would be the introduction of full WW2 RPS;
4 - the best way to do this would be a two sided world (Axis vs Allied);
5 - we could use an old rps plan;
6 - we must accept some gaps until certain models are created;
7 - we must be carefull with maps, not all have born equal...
If you allow me, I would like to contribute to this debate with my own personal experience. I started to fly online in WB back in 1998 - for those who didn't knew that already - then I moved to AH two or three years ago, maybe a little bit more...I only tried WW2 Online for two weeks, free trial.
WB had this Axis vs Allied arena in 2 country mode and RPS. I liked it, I still do. AH had CT, I liked it, I still do. AvA, I like it - I'm a masochist old chap - although I fly Allied planes - those supplied - and never complain, even when I am accused of running away or beeing an alt-monkey (curious, I learned that from observing the tactics generally used by the top scorers in every arena). I left WW2Online because I could not bail out of a stricken plane and had no rear-view mirrors or even a 6:30/5:30 back view. All the rest was bearable and I enjoyed having to take-off from England and ferry a Spitfire, refuel in France and go pick a fight and get shot to pieces while my pc stuttered and I spent all my ammo in one or two passes in a flleeting 109...
Ok, after this moment of pure nostalgia moment, what's my point? My point is: I agree with a full ww2 rps plane set but, for what you have more sacred, don't mix what never was mixed! Please! Or you will kill AvA for good!
Start the war in ETO, Poland, France, go to Norway, Dunkerque, BoB, Mediterranean, Malta, Greece, Crete, launch the Western Front, bombing raids on Germany, go to CBI, move to New-Guinea, start PTO, do whatever is needed to cover all WW2 but keep the Japanese planes in their place, the Italian planes where they belong, and so forth. One week maps, all RPessed, covering the whole possible unfolding of the conflict.
I even suggest that at the monthly meeting bomber squadrons be invited for the only bomber-based actions take place - Ploesti would be better with a filled arena, wouldn't it Storch, instead 4 109's chasing 2 B24's and 2 P51's - instead of expecting much more than fighter furballs.
Maybe the RPS makes it. We must try to whatever we can to bring numbers higher and the scope correct. The only things I dislike in MA are the mixed planes and the totally wreckless mentality of many players.
IMHO, AH is not a game. It's an aircraft combat simulator.
Maybe I am waiting for Tour of Duty to come up. But like many, I wonder if I will be up to it and if it will be up to my expectations...
Please, dear Santa...err...Staff, bring me MTO and Malta. Or Let us have a mini-Pearl Harbour with one CV and zekes fighting P40's and F4F's. Put a big BB fleet in the harbour for Vals and Kates to sink. Don't put radar working, they didn't payed much attention to it in RL either...Don't let the CV come to less than 50 miles off the island. Make our wannabe IJN pilots land their bullet riddled kites aboard their carrier, crash and burn...
Map: one island, one CV, two airfields, sea all around.
Targets: 2 fields and lots of moored ships.
That looks fun!
Cya all tomorrow,
Sparrow
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Originally posted by storch
duh, never occurred to me. I could go for that. I would probably play a lot early to mid then late war might not be fun, but who knows. I think late war would be the most popular with most players though.
players interested should sound off on this idea.
I say let's give it a whirl for one month then see how it goes.
would you suggest weekly map changes?
Full RPS for this arena is a great idea
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Indeed a full RPS would be a great idea, but I'm a bit worried about the Me262's...... the 163 i dont care much for becuase of thier pathetic range..but I started to think and an arena with unperked 262's at a base close to the fights is kinda skary....I wouldnt want the AvA to be full of MA'ers that are just there cuz they heard about the "fly till u drop in a 262 cuz thier free marathon"...I am not whining nor complaining, just a bit concerned.
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Splat.
Full RPS should mean just that. Even the 262, and 163 should have their day or days in the sun.
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ok
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Bit of info Storch -
How much fun would your fights have been with a historical matched Spit v Zeke?
given the Spit would be -
1) Our old Vc
2) Seafire L III (basically naval version of our old Vc)
3) Spit VIII
4) Seafire L IIc, not the very early rare Seafire IIc we have.
5) Using a sub with a low alt performance similar to the LIII, for e.g. the F IX
First, an observation -- you keep referring to planes we don't have in AH. I have no idea what an "old Vc" would fly like because I doubt I ever flew them, and unless reintroduced, never will, and therefore it can't be added. Same with your Seafire LIII, and LIIc. Therefore, although you complain about the design/designers of the arena, it seems your gripe is really with the available plane set. So, I am not sure why all the hostility -- the AvA crew does the best they can with what they have. Hard to make a good apple pie if all you have are lemons and sandpaper.
Second, a question -- you obviously know when the various spits were introduced / built / available for service. Do you have firm information about when those planes would have been available in numbers in the CBI theatre? I am asking out of complete ignorance. My impression of the CBI theatre has always been that it was by and large considered a backwater theatre and tended to get the older / borderline obsolete equipment that was no longer useful in the ETO or Central Pacific. It certainly was true of armor as the M3 Grant/Lee was used in the CBI until the end of the war. If the same was true of aircraft, then as an example, the older V's may have been more prevailant in the CBI long after the VIII was "available".
It matters little in the current setup with the broad (early, mid, late) categories, but I am still curious.
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You guys are missing the entire point of the AvA. Opinions are that, and we love this arena, this game.
Couple of points.
A) we have a very limited plane-set. We don't have 1000 aircraft to make historical match-ups, we have 73. Not 1000.
B) We often have to sacrifice game-play vs. historical match-ups.
C) All AvA staff are VOLUNTEERS. Did I mention EVERY staffer is a volunteer? No freebies, no nothing, just Admin status and the responsibilities that come with it.
D) This is a game. As staffers, we attempt to create an environment with issue A trying to keep issue B minimized as possible. We often succeed, we often don't. But, as VOLUNTEERS (see point C), we try.
Please resume this discussion with points A to D in mind.
And I love you guys. Don't forget the love.
:)
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A) Four sentences, labelled A through D.
B) Don't forget second chute-they're volunteers
C) Say Love not once..
D) But twice... Love
And presto the arena is fixed!!! Brilliant!
That's why they pay you the big bucks Mister Fork. ;)
AvA should be crawling with people tomorrow night.
:D
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E25280
First unit to operate a Spitfire within RAF SEAC (CBI) was 607 Co. of Durham.
They recieved the Spit Vc Sept 1943.
Vc was very capable aircraft, to the point that hardly ANY scenarios ever used it, its the one that was used in the first frame of the Malta scenario.
In AH1 and 2 prior to the remodel it was the major Spit in the MA.
Other aircraft used by SEAC (not complete) -
Hurricane IIc -
B24 Liberator II and IV - Earlier than Jan 44
Thunderbolt II - 1945
Mosquito - Nov 43
Spit XIV - July 45
Spit Vc - Sep 43
Spit VIII - Late 43
Seafire LIIc and LIII (FAA)
One of the other threads actually lists the service dates of SEAC aircraft, I'll see if I can find it.
As you can see by late 43 they started to recieve the 'good' stuff. In fact the Spit VIII was almost exclusively used in SEAC.
Hope this helps a little.
[edit] found it, it was one Mrfork started, thorough but by no means complete. I think the only one I disagreed with was 12/44 for the D9.
http://www.flyaceshigh.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=164796&highlight=service+dates
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Originally posted by Oldman731
Heh. This was pretty funny, I think Kev probably didn't recognize that it was just a one-day thing.
If I can pull any sense out of the criticisms here, it seems to me that there is some concern that those who fly LW rides get favored treatment. Certainly the staff is not trying to favor anyone. Flying G6s and A8s against P-51s, Spitfires and P-38s is a challenge - try it, you'll see. I'm more inclined to think that Shifty has a point, which is that anyone who regularly flies a particular plane type will get pretty good at it. Isn't this unavoidable? If someone is willing to bite the bullet and get good at flying the G6, for example, should we enable Tempests on the Allied side to compensate for his increased skill?
This isn't a rhetorical question. I've heard the gripes, now I'd like to hear the proffered solutions.
- oldman
Haven't stopped by in a while, but figured I'd throw in my two cents.
The key to it all is to remember that the historically minded AH flyers are a small group. Those who want to 'win', score points, earn perks and fly the latest and greatest uber ride are many. The fear of losing a fight supersedes any other interest. Why would they learn to fly a P40 for example, when you can go light speed in an LA7 and have all those cannons besides. It's about winning, not experiencing the other aspects of the game. The need to feed the AH ego is the overpowering factor.
I don't know that you can change that.
So you are left with that small group that doesn't mind dying, or taking a ride that doesn't do everything better then the other guys that will populate the AvA, and even then the arguments fly as one side or the other has to fly the rides that aren't 'better' then the other.
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Oh, and just for fun. My ideal set up:
RAF v Luftwaffe late 1942-1943 Cross Channel
RAF
Spit V
Spit FIX
Spit LFVIII (stand in for the LFIX)
Tiffie
Boston
Mossie
LW
109G2
109G6
190A5
190A8 (yeah I know it's a late 43 bird but like the VIII for the LFIX it fits)
110G
Ju88
Seems like it gives the best opportunity for evenly matched fights without the opportunity to scream one side or the other has the better planes.
It was essentially a period of stalemate during the war with no one having a the edge other then the numbers that were growing in the Allies favor.
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I've flown in the AvA a couple times. It's not bad, but a large reason I don't spend much time there is not many other people there either. I really do like the idea of flying more historic matchups though.
I know some of these ideas may be kinda "strange", but just bear with me... I'm NOT saying change the AvA wholesale. These are just ideas. Pick and choose as you like or do not. Again, please do not take this as me asking for a million changes.
#1. First server option in the list of servers.
I know this isn't possible, but did anyone stop to think the MA is so full is because it simply is the first item on the list of choices? Think of it like Internet Explorer 3.0 vs. Netscape 3.0. Internet Explorer was included in Windows for free and worked good enough, so who even looked anywhere else? I'd think that just chaning the order to be 1st on the list, while it wouldn't fix the issue, might get a little more "flow" to the arena.
#2. Adjusting Rolling Plane Set (ARPS).
As of right now, the RPS basically states from Day A to Day B, planes A, B, and C are available, X, Y, and Z are available. From B to C, Planes B, C, Y, Z are available and D and W are available at back bases. Instead of doing that, how about keeping A and X as options, or not. Doesn't matter. And enable D and W at ALL bases, but with Perks. The next time period, remove the perks from D and W, and add perks to E and V. This allows you to keep the exclusivity of those limited models, without relegating them to WHERE they can deploy. Meaning these expensive planes can be caught in any manner of fight at any altitude, instead of the higher alts because of the long climb from back bases.
#3. Change the way Radar towers are layed out and active.
This may also be a not possible one, but why is every Radar tower in the center of a field? It wasn't all THAT unusual for a Radar Tower to not be near a base, but instead, closer to the front lines for earlier warning of invasion. Add Radar Towers that are not associated to bases, in "wall" style formations. You could then "pierce" the radar "wall" to do attacks deep into enemy territory without pinpoint notification of where you are, but also there's earlier warning of where an attack will be until those towers are taken down.
#4. Make "Large" airbases capturable, and small/medium ones not. In other words, only like 3-8 Airbases max per side capturable.
This would give a "target" or "goal" for people. A focal point. Combined with the above, it may make it interesting to see a chain of Radar towers go down in a line towards one of the few capturable bases. You can possibly get the "game winners" to play in AvA then, and having that line of radar towers, there'd be more warning as to where they'd strike, since you'd know the direction, and know which one of very few targets they could be going for. More warning = more possibility of setting a counter strike. Counter strikes means more bomber escort needed. More escort = more dogfighting. etc. etc. The fact of there being so few capturable airbases means that if one DOES get captured, it would basically be surrounded by enemy bases, meaning for frantic defense against the surrounding and inevitable attack.
#5. Less Strats. More effect. Put them in towns, like Karelia's cities.
Karelia is freaking gorgeous. But instead of just little factories with no purpose down there. Put the strats behind the airfields, and they can still do fuel, troops, ord, etc. But now that the airfields are slightly farther away, and some airfields can be captured, fuel can be more important. bombs are needed for the pesky radar towers, and troops to get a foothold in one of the limited areas.
Who knows. Maybe some crazy ideas. But that's all they are is ideas.
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Originally posted by Knite
#2. Adjusting Rolling Plane Set (ARPS).
As of right now, the RPS basically states from Day A to Day B, planes A, B, and C are available, X, Y, and Z are available. From B to C, Planes B, C, Y, Z are available and D and W are available at back bases. Instead of doing that, how about keeping A and X as options, or not. Doesn't matter. And enable D and W at ALL bases, but with Perks. The next time period, remove the perks from D and W, and add perks to E and V. This allows you to keep the exclusivity of those limited models, without relegating them to WHERE they can deploy. Meaning these expensive planes can be caught in any manner of fight at any altitude, instead of the higher alts because of the long climb from back bases.
I have thought about using perks with the RPS as kind of a rarity factor to limit a planes usage even though it's available for service. I have mixed feelings on it though and could probably argue each case equally. I'd be interested in hearing other people's opinions on perks used with a RPS. Also any input by the staff on the feasabilty of using perks with a RPS would be appreciated.
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Hi Bug,
This is a very personal opinion...I agree with perks for some models in a RPS just because there are models that were built in very small numbers and saw very limited use. These are historical/industrial facts. To limit availability in an RPS is only replicate what happened in RL: best squadrons had the latest machines, in small batches and often to use in very limited actions.
That's my opinion.
Thanks,
Sparrow
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Originally posted by Kev367th
E25280
First unit to operate a Spitfire within RAF SEAC (CBI) was 607 Co. of Durham.
They recieved the Spit Vc Sept 1943.
Vc was very capable aircraft, to the point that hardly ANY scenarios ever used it, its the one that was used in the first frame of the Malta scenario.
In AH1 and 2 prior to the remodel it was the major Spit in the MA.
Other aircraft used by SEAC (not complete) -
Hurricane IIc -
B24 Liberator II and IV - Earlier than Jan 44
Thunderbolt II - 1945
Mosquito - Nov 43
Spit XIV - July 45
Spit Vc - Sep 43
Spit VIII - Late 43
Seafire LIIc and LIII (FAA)
One of the other threads actually lists the service dates of SEAC aircraft, I'll see if I can find it.
As you can see by late 43 they started to recieve the 'good' stuff. In fact the Spit VIII was almost exclusively used in SEAC.
Hope this helps a little.
[edit] found it, it was one Mrfork started, thorough but by no means complete. I think the only one I disagreed with was 12/44 for the D9.
http://www.flyaceshigh.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=164796&highlight=service+dates
As a follow on the Spit VIII's -
By Jan 44 there were 2 sqns with Vc's, 4 with Spit VIII's
By March 44 the V's were replaced, and more sqns equipped with VIII up to a total of 7 sqdns all with the VIII.
So quite a fast introduction from the initial sqn to get the first VIII's late 43.
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Originally posted by TheBug
Also any input by the staff on the feasabilty of using perks with a RPS would be appreciated.
Setting perk prices for the planes would require someone from HTC to do it. And if those would have to be adjusted almost every day... That's why the rear fields are being used for limiting a plane's availability.
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Thanks for that info Panzzer, that pretty much rules out perks in a RPS.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
As a follow on the Spit VIII's -
By Jan 44 there were 2 sqns with Vc's, 4 with Spit VIII's
By March 44 the V's were replaced, and more sqns equipped with VIII up to a total of 7 sqdns all with the VIII.
So quite a fast introduction from the initial sqn to get the first VIII's late 43.
Thanks. I guess as far as air power is concerned, the Brits were on top of things . . . :aok
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Originally posted by E25280
Thanks. I guess as far as air power is concerned, the Brits were on top of things . . . :aok
I think in all honesty that the plane itself decided on where it was needed.
Remember the IX was only supposed to be a temporary solution until the VIII was ready.
The extra range of the VIII made it more suitable to the Far East than the IX, hence almost all RAF VIII's went to SEAC.