Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Shuckins on June 16, 2006, 05:44:08 PM
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In the last month or so, friends of mine have had their lives touched by tragedy related to off-road 4-wheeler accidents.
I just returned from the home of a former co-worker whose 24 year-old son was killed in a four-wheeler accident last night.
He was on a paved two lane county road that he was unfamiliar with, riding a hopped up four-wheeler. He unexpectedly found himself in a curve, ran off the road and collided with a tree. His father told me that his forward was crushed. Undoubtedly, he died instantly.
He would have been 25 this Sunday.
Five weeks ago, the son of a high-school friend was riding his four-wheeler after dark, apparently going to a party, and backed off a cliff near Little Rock. Searchers found him seven hours later, early in the morning. The accident has left him a paraplegic.
I have no desire to ban these recreational vehicles, but I have known quite a few people over the years who have had deadly or near deadly accidents on them. Can't count the number of times I have seen good old boys blasting down darkened roads at high speeds on a vehicle with handling that can only be described as tricky at best.
And of course, hardly anybody wears a helmet.
Just feeling really down right now. What, if anything, can be done about the carnage associated with the use of these treacherous go-buggies?
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Sorry to hear about the loss of your friends son. Hopefully other youg men in the community can learn from this.
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Shuckins you have my sympathies.
Lemme tell you a little story when I Picked up my Triumph from the shop.
I am walking out back with the mechanic. He is explaining what was done to the bike . He glances over and i hear him say " aww S*** ".
I asked what was up, he just points.
This is what I see.
A 17-18 year old getting on a big bore crotch rocket. Undoubtedly his first bike. He couldn't touch the ground with both feet not even tip toe. He then starts the bike and tries to take off .. he stalls it. This happens 4 or 5 more times. He finally gets to the end of the parking lot which is off a 4 lane road.
He then proceeds to stall a couple more times trying to pull out onto the road. He finally gets out onto the road. What do you think I hear next?
Yup the bike screaming for all its worth because the road is straight.
I look at the mechanic and say "He is going to drop it on the first corner you know.". He say "probably" then says "I don't understand how the salesman could sell him that.".
I am not one for more gov controls but I believe there should be a mandatory licencing for all motorcycles/ATVs.
They should have to pass a meaningful training program.
Bronk
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Appreciate the thought Rip.
The father is doing about as well as could be expected. His wife has always been a little stronger about this sort of thing than he is...but they're both handling it better than some people I have known who have had similar tragedies.
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I know what you mean Bronk. Kinda makes you want to throttle the salesman doesn't it.
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Originally posted by Shuckins
He was on a paved two lane county road that he was unfamiliar with, riding a hopped up four-wheeler. He unexpectedly found himself in a curve, ran off the road and collided with a tree.
thats not a bad vehicle, thats just bad driving, sorry.
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A vehicle, like a weapon, only becomes dangerous once a person gets involved. It's not the fault of the machine.
Sorry about your friend. It's never good to lose someone you're close to or that you know.
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Originally posted by Maverick
A vehicle, like a weapon, only becomes dangerous once a person gets involved. It's not the fault of the machine.
Sorry about your friend. It's never good to lose someone you're close to or that you know.
hey, I still have that spot open for you if you come up this way. Plenty of room for your camper and truck. :)
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Rip,
Dunno if I'll be up that way. Doc thinks I may have blown a disk in the lower back, causing a nasty case of sciatica. Back in Tucson right now for confirmation and or repairs. I hate being here this time of year. It was 107 yesterday. :mad:
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Too bad that; I live in Arkansas too & 4-wheeler accidents are common here. I am 100% against more govt. control & I think once a person reaches the age of 18 or whatever the states in question recognize as an adult, they should be able to buy whatever they want.
Education will help keep some accidents from happening & so will experience; but nothing can take the place of maturity & common sense.
I know a lot of guys with 4-wheelers ( I have one myself ) & I can say first hand they are some of the best riders I have ever known, but also some of the most immature risk takers I have ever known....& god forbid you add alcohol to the mix.
It isn't easy to nail down a fix, except for the loved ones of people who are prone to acting foolish keeping after them about being careful until they wise up or get killed. Sad but true. Sometimes they kill other people who were innocent & doing nothing careless themselves; at least that didn't happen in this case.
Oh BTW, riding an ATV on Arkansas roads is against the law & there are warning labels telling everyone about riding on hard surfaces; that's enough govt. control.
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Sorry to hear that Shuckins. Sounds to me like your describing the 4X4 as your typical kid CJ with a lift kit and oversize rims and tires..
..they are not safe road vehicles and require a judical amount savvy and experience from the driver if it's in GOOD mechanical condition. With a worn steering gear box, shot tie rod end, worn springs, a low tire... a death trap, no matter who's at the wheel.
Did they do a mechanical check on the Jeep after the accident?
Again.. my condolences.
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About 4 years ago my cousin, who was 16 or 17 at the time, decided to have a paintball match with his friends...on ATV's. Anyone know how this turns out? He flipped the ATV, exhaust landed on his ankle, leaving him with a nice 7 inch scar from a 3rd degree burn. He also had burns across his back, road rash i'd suspect. No one died but i'm pretty sure he hasn't driven an ATV since.
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Did they do a mechanical check on the Jeep after the accident?
I believe he's referring to an ATV 4-wheel motorcycle Hang, not a jeep.
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I think two words are the only way to prevent these tragedies.
Parental supervision.
John had it right. Bad driving was the cause of the accidents, not unsafe vehicles. Those kids were endangered the moment they were left unsupervised with the vehicles, just the same as if their parents had given them the keys to the family car and let them go on the freeway.
It sounds harsh and insensitive, but that's the truth here. You don't ban something just because their parents left their kids alone with it and they got injured or killed... From that point of view, there are few things in this world that shouldn't be banned because almost everything we have or do can be fatal to children if left unsupervised.
Maybe we should ban houses because kids can climb up on them and jump off.
Or maybe we can watch our kids when they're in proximity to dangerous things, so they are introduced to them in a controlled manner.
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Sorry for the confusion Hang...it was an ATV I was talking about.
It's hard to educate someone who's already 25 years old. He was a risk taker and had caused his family a fair amount of grief during his life. Sad but true.
Brenjen, what area of Arkansas are you from?
Regards, Shuckins
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Life is the leading cause of death. Be smart because this is the only shot you get.
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The thing is, you call the vehicles themselves "treacherous", when they're not any more treacherous than my wife's crappy corolla. They're perfectly fine when operated in a safe fashion, but give a kid the keys or operate it in an unsafe manner, and you're just asking for trouble.
Life itself is treacherous, not some vehicle. ATV deaths amount for just a small fraction of child and young adult fatalities nationwide, because most parents know that it's stupid to let a kid use one unsupervised. That said, even the most talented person, whether they're a child or an adult, will make occasional mistakes. Sometimes those mistakes are fatal.
How many adults have you seen run their cars off the road when it's raining or snowing? Do you then call the cars treacherous and curse the salesman who sold it to them? That happens far far far more often than kids killing themselves on ATVs, but somehow the fatal results of bad driving in a regular car is "ok", but fatal results of bad ATV driving is the ATVs fault. That's a load of BS but people get all excited waving their arms around, and it makes them feel better pointing the finger at the evil salesman or the evil ATV manufacturer.
Where is the outrage against the evil automakers for enticing us to buy and drive cars that can go 2 times the legal speed limit? There are around 16,000 fatalities in traffic accidents EVERY YEAR, so why is that OK, but a handful of ATV fatalities involving people who shouldn't have even been driving them is blamed on the ATV instead of the person driving or the person who let them drive?
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Originally posted by eagl
fatal results of bad ATV driving is the ATVs fault. That's a load of BS but people get all excited waving their arms around, and it makes them feel better pointing the finger at the evil salesman or the evil ATV manufacturer.
Where is the outrage against the evil automakers for enticing us to buy and drive cars that can go 2 times the legal speed limit? There are around 16,000 fatalities in traffic accidents EVERY YEAR, so why is that OK, but a handful of ATV fatalities involving people who shouldn't have even been driving them is blamed on the ATV instead of the person driving or the person who let them drive?
Not making fun of you and I don't want to hijack the thread but this is not the only kind of circumstance where this type of response is seen. It's seen very frequently where we blame the instrument / machine / weapon whatever for the fault of the person operating it. Then someone raises a hue and cry that we must ban the object to save lives because people aren't smart or competant to operate them properly 100% of the time. All those who don't misuse the item must be "punished" by a ban of ownership for the misdeeds of the few that do misuse it. Makes sense right?. Hell no it doesn't but that doesn't stop the bleating of save this or that by banning this and that.
There are approximately 40,000 deaths atributed to motor vehicles each year in the US but those aren't critical because we term those deaths the result of an "accident". See if it's an "accident" there's no one to blame, it's not really a "bad" thing someone did, it was an "ACCIDENT". Collisions are not an "accident" over 90% of the time, they are the results of negligence. Intentional or not it's still negligence, but we can't blame the people because of the semantics of refering to it as an "accident".
It's all bovine excrement and it's time there was a change to holding people responsible for their own damn actions, instead of calling it an "accident" and blowing it off. Don't hold your breath waiting for it however.
When a pilot screws up the results are called pilot error. Perhaps we should start doing the same thing and refer to collisions for what they really are, driver error.
<----- picks up soap box and hobbles off stage right
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You're right Mav. I was using autos as my example because of their similiarity to ATVs.
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Originally posted by Shuckins
Sorry for the confusion Hang...it was an ATV I was talking about.
It's hard to educate someone who's already 25 years old. He was a risk taker and had caused his family a fair amount of grief during his life. Sad but true.
Brenjen, what area of Arkansas are you from?
Regards, Shuckins
North central...Searcy to be exact.
Edit: ATV's are not intended for hard surfaces, they are difficult to control on those. Pavement especially, the tires need to be able to slide to steer correctly believe it or not.
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Originally posted by eagl
The thing is, you call the vehicles themselves "treacherous", when they're not any more treacherous than my wife's crappy corolla. They're perfectly fine when operated in a safe fashion, but give a kid the keys or operate it in an unsafe manner, and you're just asking for trouble.
Life itself is treacherous, not some vehicle. ATV deaths amount for just a small fraction of child and young adult fatalities nationwide, because most parents know that it's stupid to let a kid use one unsupervised. That said, even the most talented person, whether they're a child or an adult, will make occasional mistakes. Sometimes those mistakes are fatal.
How many adults have you seen run their cars off the road when it's raining or snowing? Do you then call the cars treacherous and curse the salesman who sold it to them? That happens far far far more often than kids killing themselves on ATVs, but somehow the fatal results of bad driving in a regular car is "ok", but fatal results of bad ATV driving is the ATVs fault. That's a load of BS but people get all excited waving their arms around, and it makes them feel better pointing the finger at the evil salesman or the evil ATV manufacturer.
Where is the outrage against the evil automakers for enticing us to buy and drive cars that can go 2 times the legal speed limit? There are around 16,000 fatalities in traffic accidents EVERY YEAR, so why is that OK, but a handful of ATV fatalities involving people who shouldn't have even been driving them is blamed on the ATV instead of the person driving or the person who let them drive?
I don't want em banned I just want em licenced
We are licenced to drive a car and are required to take a skill test. (and should be more stringent)
If you read my previous post person i was describing had no business on a motorcycle.
I agree the vehicles themselves are not treacherous. If you add an unskilled rider and use in an inappropriate local , it becomes a serious hazard.
Bronk
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Bronk,
In the vast majority of the 40k fatalities each year the drivers were all licensed. The license does not prohibit stupidity. In addition there are those who will drive even though their license has been revoked or suspended because they already had been shown in a court that they were stupid. Never underestimate the power of human stupidity.
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I think licensing would be too restrictive. ATVs of the appropriate size and power are fine tools and toys when properly supervised. Plus those parents who let their kids use them unsupervised will just get them licensed themselves, and then let their kids use them anyhow.
For example, I think it would be perfectly safe to let a 6 year old ride one of those small 1/4 or 1/2 hp "ATV" karts or motorbikes if properly supervised, because adults can run just as fast as the little suckers can drive. As the kid gets older, they can be taught to safely ride bigger and more powerful ATVs. But can you imagine the govt sticking their neck out to create a licensing scheme that would allow such a logical training progression? Not likely. They would set a minimum age and very restrictive rules, ensuring that it's impossible to legally ride and learn how to ride until you're too old to develop the reflexes that any really good rider learns as a child. Now THAT is BS in my opinion. The govt is simply too rigid and any rules they could make would be far too restrictive to be of any use.
Of course, the only people who want such laws are the bleeding-hearts who don't use ATVs or other off-road vehicles anyhow, so why the hell can't they take a big cup of STFU and go away? Just let people live their life without forcing everyone else to follow your own personal rules.
You can't legislate common sense, and that's what pisses me off the most about busybodies who run around after tragedies blaming the vehicle or the manufacturer. Like Mav said, it's about personal responsibility and you don't teach responsibility by passing laws that remove all ability to exercise judgement when conducting your own business.
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Yea your right.
I just hate to see a kid get killed because he had more B***s than brains.
I think most atv dealers offer a safety course now. I guess most don't take em up on this offer.
In RI to get your motorcycle endorsement you have to complete the safety course.
Has 2 types advanced and beginner.
Back when went through it. They booted a guy down to the beginner class when he dropped the bike . The funny part was he was told just to roll back a bit while sitting on it.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Sorry to hear about the loss of your friends son. Hopefully other youg men in the community can learn from this.
Yes it was a tragic loss.
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Really makes you think, I mean anyone of us could just die tomorrow. Eternal darkness.
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4 Wheelers + pavement = disaster. Same with dirtbikes. Knobby tires do not react well on asphault. It took me a couple of times to realise that when I was young.
Sorry to hear about your friends. I know a couple guys that have had serious 3 and 4 wheeler accidents. Luckily they recovered.
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"HEY! YOU! YEAH YOU! OUT OF THE GENE POOL! NOW!"
If you act like a retard, occasionally you're going to get caught with your dick flapping in the wind. Set and Point: Ben Roethlisberger.
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This is too crazy...too wierd.
Got a phone call last night just as I was going to bed.
One of the ladies who was at my friend's home helping greet the well-wishers and handle the flowers and food and all such...left shortly after we did...and was killed when she ran off the shoulder of the highway and flipped her vehicle.
Two other vehicle accidents occurred yesterday as well...both at the same intersection but at different times.
Absolute carnage on our highways yesterday.
:(
Regards, Shuckins
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Damn shame all these accidents and losses. Always seems harder when someone close was having fun, was on trip or on a vacation, when they were supposed to relax and enjoy themselves...
Here for big quads a motorcycle license is required, not sure though that would reduce the risks considerably
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Government regulation isn't the answer. If the motorcycle/ATV businesses want to be smart about things and keep the gubmint out of their dealings, then they should be emphasizing education as an integral part of the sales process.
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This will prolly cause a lot of whining but i dont care.
Why not ban ATVs on roads? Im not sure if you can drive them on the road here but I dont think its legal. A few years back there were alot of accidents with them because kids preferred them to mopeds etc. Dont see them on the roads anymore so that why i think they now are restriced to offroad use.
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They've never been legal on the roads, at least, anywhere I've lived.
But it turns out that they don't automatically shut off when you drive onto pavement....
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oh i see..
does that mean that you wont get anything on the insurance if you have na accident with them on the road?
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My sister flipped her rodeo by going off the edge of the pavement about four days ago. She lives up in the boston mountains between Harrison & Eureka Springs & Springdale; lot's of tourists up there, she came around a corner in the two lane state highway & there was a group of motorcyclists riding two by two (illegal here) & in the corner the outside rider was on the yellow line & my sister thought part of the bike was sticking over into her lane so she moved over...no shoulder; it grabbed the wheel & flung her into a culvert at 50 m.p.h.
I was gone tues, wed & most of thurs visiting with her, she got lucky & came out with only a black eye & seatbelt & air bag burns on her chest & arms. It has been a wreck a minute week here in Arkansas.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
oh i see..
does that mean that you wont get anything on the insurance if you have na accident with them on the road?
No vehicle liability insurance is required by law because they are not allowed on the roads.
If you have life insurance, it's going to pay regardless unless you violate a clause in the policy.
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Originally posted by Brenjen
No vehicle liability insurance is required by law because they are not allowed on the roads.
If you have life insurance, it's going to pay regardless unless you violate a clause in the policy.
but there prolly is a clause against breaking the law right?
here the company would pay out to anyone you injure and then reclaim it from you.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
but there prolly is a clause against breaking the law right?
here the company would pay out to anyone you injure and then reclaim it from you.
For life insurance? Maybe...suicide is the only popular clause, each policy is different I'm sure.
What you refer to in the second part is back to vehicle liability insurance & the ATV's are not allowed on roads; therefore not insured. ;)