Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: Brenjen on June 16, 2006, 11:34:26 PM
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Long story short; I turned a minor annoyance into three broken wires inside my Saitek X-52 & they are too tiny for me to solder back in place.
I am looking at CH fighterstick USB & the pro pedals combined with my X-52 throttle as my replacement set-up. What do you guys think? Good choice? Will the X-52 throttle be compatible with CH J/S?
I am completely unfamiliar with CH products & am still trying to decide between cost vs. reliability & performance & I would really appreciate anyones constructive input on this matter please.
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i used my x-52 throttle with my ch fighter stick and pro pedals util my throttle came in . Worked fine , i actually miss the rotaries on the x-52 .throttle
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Thanks ruk, my other thought is to go with a cougar hotas & CH pro pedals; but ihear to make it a "good stick" you need to do something with hall effect sensors & potentiometers or some dam thing. I just don't know what to look for. My X-52 was ok, on a scale of 1-10 I'd have given it a 6 but I'm looking for an 8 or 9 at least.
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I think the CH is well worth the cost. CH makes some good reliable sticks right out of the box. The good thing about them is you can use another throttle and buy a little at a time.
I have a Cougar and I think it's the top of the line. But it will cost you quite a bit for the stick and modification upgrades. If our interested, here are some pics of the hall sensors and gimbal upgrade. You can find more information at the link to Cougar World.
Gunner's Cougar Page (http://webpages.charter.net/davegun/Cougar.htm)
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Thanks Gunner; so what you're saying is the Cougar is fine the way it is, but can be made better?
I have never had CH or Thrustmaster products...I'm not a J/S mechanic & don't know what the need for the hall effect sensors are if the pots or whatever work.
Do the Cougars suffer from stick drift within a few months or is it just the stiff springs that people prefer with the upgrade?
I have a squaddie with a Cougar & I think he did the hall effect sensor upgrade...I'm going to e-mail him & pick his brain too.
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My problem with my X-52 was this:
#1 - stick drift, it would drift forward ever so slightly if moved just right & was bought new in Dec. of '05
#2 - the twisty rudder control would cause rudder stutter (lol) so when I got on an enemy planes six, it was difficult to make fine adjustments. It was like rubbing a rubber O ring against a damp plastic base or wet skin on an inner-tube & my rounds would not concentrate except by the enemy pilot turning into my guns & holding still or I just would get lucky & the rudder would stop stuttering on the plane.
I don't want to have that problem again.
I dont like the way CH sticks look, they look cheap. If I'm going to drop another hundred bucks I might as well drop two more & get a stick that's going to last & that's what has turned my eye to the cougar. I just can't decide what is the best thing to do.
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Not going to bash the cougar but... I thought that I read some go bad in just a few hours of use.
I don't like the fact you pay top $$ for a stick and to make it work you through more $$ at it.
Is it true people have $800+ into the Cougar hotas set up?
Bronk
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Originally posted by Brenjen
I dont like the way CH sticks look, they look cheap. If I'm going to drop another hundred bucks I might as well drop two more & get a stick that's going to last & that's what has turned my eye to the cougar. I just can't decide what is the best thing to do.
I'll bet you there are people out there using 10+ year old CH stuff.
I am currently using 10 year old game port ch pro peds .
Also I gave my Squady my old CH fighter stick was game port also.
I was to lazy to mess with jumping between dos and xp to program stick.
When I shipped it to him the axises were still working flawlessly.
Bronk
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Thanks Bronk, I have heard the praises of CH sung here on these boards; & I know it's petty of me but I don't like the way they look. I hate it that my obsessive compulsive nature causes me to notice things like that. And what's worse it's only at the bottom of the stick where it attaches to the base, it reminds me of the floor shifter in a Mustang II.
I like the look of the Cougar, but I have never had my hands wrapped around either of them. My squaddie swears by his Cougar with the hall effect upgrade, but has never had a CH either & can't compare the two.
How difficult to find/purchase are the hall effect sensors used to upgrade the cougar? Anyone on here done it recently?
I appreciate all the help & information folks; that Frugals Cougar world page is really helpful, but I haven't gotten into it much yet; going to give it a read right now.
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The Cougar out of the box will work fine, but it has play in the center. I had used the stock pots for several years. The Cougar is nearly all metal, and can be taken apart, repaired or modified. There is a lot of community support, and modifications available. But, if you don't like to open the hood and mess with it, it may not be what you are looking for. Building PCs and Joysticks is part of the hobby for me.
The hall sensors can take some time to get, but replacement standard pots are quite cheap and available through Cougar World (Red Dog). To eliminate any center play, you need to change out the gimbals.
The CH makes a good solid stick, no modifications needed.
Gunner
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Originally posted by Bronk
Not going to bash the cougar but... I thought that I read some go bad in just a few hours of use.
I don't like the fact you pay top $$ for a stick and to make it work you through more $$ at it.
Is it true people have $800+ into the Cougar hotas set up?
Bronk
My Cougar did not go bad in a few hours use. But then some people can break a joystick rather quickly. It may be more to do with their flying style (temper) then the hardware :)
I have more in my joystick then I do in my last PC upgrade. $800+ is not unreal. I didn't buy it all at once. First the Cougar, a few years later, the Hall Sensors, now the NXT gimbals. My last TM FLCS/TQS lasted me 8 years and is still in use. It also had upgrade modificatons and a few repairs. I plan to use my Cougar at least that long and longer. This is my hobby, so want outweighs need :)
Gunner
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I have all but decided on the Cougar.
I am also looking at the Über II NXT mod, that is the replacement gimble correct?
There are so many mods & the site is packed full of so much info it's difficult to understand what your looking at without already knowing what certain things are.
I absolutely live to take stuff apart. I have had nitro fuel powered 4x4 R/C trucks & modded them, I build P/C's now & then & twist wrenches on everything I own. I like the idea the Cougar is made out of metal & that is the single biggest factor that swayed me & the look of the stick was second.
I am thankful for the info Gunner/Bronk/38ruk :aok
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Originally posted by GunnerCAF
My Cougar did not go bad in a few hours use. But then some people can break a joystick rather quickly. It may be more to do with their flying style (temper) then the hardware :)
I have more in my joystick then I do in my last PC upgrade. $800+ is not unreal. I didn't buy it all at once. First the Cougar, a few years later, the Hall Sensors, now the NXT gimbals. My last TM FLCS/TQS lasted me 8 years and is still in use. It also had upgrade modificatons and a few repairs. I plan to use my Cougar at least that long and longer. This is my hobby, so want outweighs need :)
Gunner
Hmmm
Originally posted by smash
:furious
I purchased the TM Cougar knowing that I was going to go ahead and spend the money on the NXT mod and the Hall sensors from Cubby. I went ahead and ordered both mods the day I bought the stick, but figured I would use it until everything came in. (The NXT from Ian got to me in less then a week -- still waiting on the Halls.) The stick is being used with a set of RCS pedals and a new computer that I've detailed here before.
I got 2-3 years out of my old TM stick before replacing the pots, so its not like I'm hard on sticks. I would not have guessed that a $239 stick/throttle would fail within 7 days of flying... I'm disgusted to say the least.
Here's a graph out of the analyzer showing what the spikes look like. I am moving the stick only in the X,Y. When you lean it to the right, everything is fine. As soon as you go left past center it goes nuts. Last night I couldn't even take my hand off the stick and use the autopilot. Since I ordered the mods I didn't keep the box or receipt... otherwise I would exchange it at CompUSA.
(http://www.mindspear.com/generalpics/cougar.gif)
In the thread i got this from he said it happened in a week.
I completely agree with the $$ spent on a hobby. I can get a bit out of hand with my rc stuff.
Bronk
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O.K.
Now what rudder pedals are recomended by you folks that are compatible with the Cougar?
I saw the Roo-peds, they look like they would work great by taking your shoes off & using your toes like a monkey :D
But aside from building my own Or begging some roo peds :( , what brand/model are the best in your opinion?
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Guess I'm a CH fanboy.
In the 10 years I've had my set I've taken them apart once to clean the pot.
Bronk
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Hey that's cool Bronk, they have a solid reputation. Why not like CH?
The Cougar is too expensive & shouldn't need mods to be "tight" but eh, apparently it does. After the mods though it appears as though it's a last a lifetime deal.
So I take it your a CH rudder pedal fan too Bronk? Ever tried any other brands to compare performance?
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The only other peds I had a chance to try looked like this.
(http://www.premiere-search.com/images/5186415.jpg)
I didn't like the swing feel . But that's just a personal preference.
They are however quite effective.
Bronk
Edit: the peds looked similar to the pic . Was more of a crossbar that ran between the pedals. I think it was a much older version of the one in the pic.
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Those look like the thrustmasters, do they pivot in the middle? Or do you have to depress the pedal like a gas pedal on a car?
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Originally posted by Brenjen
I have all but decided on the Cougar.
I am also looking at the Über II NXT mod, that is the replacement gimble correct?
There are so many mods & the site is packed full of so much info it's difficult to understand what your looking at without already knowing what certain things are.
I absolutely live to take stuff apart. I have had nitro fuel powered 4x4 R/C trucks & modded them, I build P/C's now & then & twist wrenches on everything I own. I like the idea the Cougar is made out of metal & that is the single biggest factor that swayed me & the look of the stick was second.
I am thankful for the info Gunner/Bronk/38ruk :aok
Brenjen,
The Uber II NXT are the gimbals, and you will need the Hall Sensors also. You need to contact IJ about the NXT. He just finished a run in the last few days. If he made any extra, now may be a good time to order. You will find all kinds of posts here, just click on his sig:
http://forums.frugalsworld.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=22044&page=216 (http://forums.frugalsworld.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=22044&page=216)
You need to contact Cub Pilot for the Hall Sensors. IJ will coorinate with Cubby on the delivery of the Halls with the NXT.
For Pedals, I have a set of CH pedals that are well over 10 years old. Many are going for Simpeds. There is a large thread on this here:
http://forums.frugalsworld.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=82299&page=8 (http://forums.frugalsworld.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=82299&page=8)
If you can find a set with a joystick port plug, they can be plugged into the Cougar and you can program them like the other Cougar axises.
Gunner
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They pivot and have toe brake also. IIRC
Bronk
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Thanks guys, I feel well armed enough with knowledge now to investigate & understand what I'm seeing & reading. That'll help me greatly with my final decision.
I really appreciate it.
Edit: Not sure what a simped is really, checking that now.
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Bronk
I saw this post from Smash also. I have no clue what was going on there, and I have not ever seen or heard of this. He also posted on Cougar World and I think he stumped them over there also. Must of had something go way wrong. The good thing about having something breaking right away is you can send it back :)
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Looks like they make one just for the Cougar. These have hall sensors, so I would expect these will last a long time. Looks like Eagle on Cougar World is helping with these orders.
http://home.arcor.de/p.madel/simped/simp001.htm (http://home.arcor.de/p.madel/simped/simp001.htm)
Hmmm, now that I am looking at these, I think I should look at getting one :)
Gunner
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Yeah; I was just checking them out, looks like around $316 U.S.
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WOW, the Uber2 NXT gimble replacement is nearly $400!:O
At least the Hall effect sensors are reasonable at $100; it's making me wonder about the Simpeds price though, the currency converter had a little problem & quoted the price in the thousands because the cost was printed as 250,00 euros so I changed the comma to a decimal point. Maybe the cost was $3,016 instead of $316 Holy $@*# batman!
It seems as though the Cougars are hard to come by but I have found some in stock at one retailer & apparently the stock pots are not always bad some say within hours there are problems & others say 4-6 months still more say with maintenance they will last longer.
Maybe I should buy a CH & a Cougar just to see for myself, what'll really suck is if I don't like either & want to go back to the X-52.:cry
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If you want to run it stock for a while, and worried about the pots, Cougar World sells replacements fairly cheap. You can also just buy the Hall sensors. Cubby makes a kit to install them on stock gimbals. This is what I did. When I put in the NXT, I just installed the halls into the NXT.
Again, CH makes a great reliable stick also. So many decisions :)
Gunner
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Yeah, the Hall effects from cubby are $100, it's the 370 some-odd dollar NXT gimble that floored me.
I looked at the Simpeds but they were labeled 250,00euros & the converter said they would be $31,431 but when the comma is replaced with a decimal it's $314.31
Seeing as how the gimbles are over $350 from IJ the Simpeds seem too affordable unless the price is really $3,143.12
See what I'm getting at?
I want the Cougar & cubbys hall effect sensors with Simpeds; if the Simpeds are $314....then the total cost would be under $700 but with the NXT gimbles it's over $1000 for a stick & peddles & I just can't see the nearly $400 extra just to remove a millimeter of slop in the center axis.
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IIRC I've paid 270 Autralian - not US - dollars for Ian's Über2next gimbals (plus 100 USD for Ernest's Hall sensors).
These gimbals do not only solve the (potential) center-play issue, they moreover remove the nasty (IMHO) "transition flats" (the stick gets "sucked" into the axes' travel when you move it, it's literally impossible to draw a circle) of the stock gimbals with their stiff springs - if you're flying WWII-sims, then the stock gimbals are too stiff for fine-control (but I've lived some years with them, though).
One question, if you don't mind: you're not planning to go 64-bit, are you? There are no 64-bit drivers available for the Cougar, nor are they planned before Vista will be available (next year). (They can be used under 64-bit, though, just not be programmed.) Just FYI...
As for which pedals to get, well, you don't really need game-port pedals and plug 'em into the Cougar - not for games that support multiple devices (most of today's sims). The only reason to plug pedals into the Cougar is if a specific game does not support multiple controllers, or if you need/want to program them via the Cougar's means. All of TM's old pedals fit, both the older and wider RCS as well as the newer Elites (both standard 1-axis pedals without toe-brakes). For CH's USB-port Pro Pedals you can find detailed instructions on how to add a switch with a game-port (so you can plug 'em anywhere you want) on Cougar World (but they come along with their own app so you can program them anyway). But the Simpeds are the best you can get if you're after fine-control (just like the TMs are the best when it comes to being (almost) indestructable), though they can be a bit hard to get: Peter Hofman was/is(?) very ill, and he's a one-man-show, plus he doesn't speak English; a friend of his is active at Cougar World, though, so you should be able to get them if you really should want them.
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I've used Ch Products for the last 15 years exclusively. Used other HOTAS brands before that.
As to the Ch looking cheap.....the F-16 Combat Stick is a replica of an F-16 joystick. Reportedly used by NASA for the Space Shuttle Sim.
All I can state from my experience is that Ch performs well above other input devices. A few of the gentlemen playing this game are using some of my old equipment. In some instances it is 10 years old. One complete analog HOTAS being used by an AH Player that I donated is 10 yrs old and doing very well.
From my experience I've spent fewer dollars by using Ch equipment. I might have paid more initially but I've spent less money on input devices in that 15 year span than others have using other various brands of joysticks etc. I've never had trouble with any Ch product. And...I've never worn one out. I've bought new and gave my used equipment away and that equipment is still in use.
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Originally posted by DonULFonso
IIRC I've paid 270 Autralian - not US - dollars for Ian's Über2next gimbals (plus 100 USD for Ernest's Hall sensors).
The prices I quoted are U.S. Dollars, the reason is I am in the U.S. & IJ wants paid by pay-pal in U.S. currency or there is an added fee for him. If I lived in Australia I would just send the guy a money order in aussie bucks & be done with it; except I'm not going to pay that much money for them, I think they are overpriced.
As far as the simpeds I am already aware of all that, it's the price conversion I'm wondering about, sorry for the confusion I thought I had explained it clearly, I guess I didn't.
Hajo; As far as CH products, I have never said they were cheap, or would malfunction. I am well aware of their stellar dependability. I just do not personally like the way the base attaches to the stick; it looks cheap to me...maybe cheesy would be a better description. It's just my opinion of how it looks to me.
thanks folks, I decided on the cougar:aok
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Ah, IC - it's been a while since I modded my Cougar, and maybe my memory was playing me false. I fully understand your hesitation to invest further money - I had considered it back and forth for years myself before I finally decided to do it. As for the prices range of the available mods, keep in mind that they're done by other users, in only small numbers, not in large batches by a large company.
As for the CHs looking somewhat 'cheap' compared to the Cougar, well, I've had the same opinion myself - before I got mine, mind. In the meantime I've come to love their quality and their feeling, and I even got used to the 'missing' rotaries on the throttle. I'm using both of my sets, TM as well as CH, but I can't deny that the Cougar beats everything else hands down when it comes to ergonomics. The CH isn't bad, it actually is even close - but it still is not as ergonomical as the Cougar, that's right.
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Thank you, that's what I was originally looking for, someone who has & uses both TM & CH to compare feel & functionality.
The Cougar sold me on the all metal construction & the look. I like that the stick unscrews from the base & that function makes the base look better to me imo.
I admit, at the momment I'm a wee bit strapped for cash & the CH may be my choice if it becomes neccesary to adjust for cost issues.:cry
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NP, Brenjen - if you've got further questions, just ask. I'm using both and dare say can judge 'em pretty well, especially WRT ergonomics as well as programmability, so if there's something you should wanna know, fire away. I was/am in both beta-teams, too, but - hence, rather - I'm not a bit biased.
Money always is an issue, but without intending to talk you into either choice, keep in mind that you're gonna buy your next set once - and will keep it for years, much longer than you'll keep your current video-card, and probably much cheaper, too, especially in the longer run.
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Go with CH Products. I'm so happy with them. And I suggest them to everyone.
I have a friend with saitex toys and another with the Cougar setup.
They have countless issues with hardware and their mapping quiting in game.
Ch mapper is so easy and can do anything you can imagine your joysticks controlling ingame/pc funcitons.
Very well worth the extra buck or two.
I never understood why people go and buy the Cougar for the same money or more and then have to go and drop additional time and cash just to get it working "right" with mods. Maybe the pretty metal draws them in.
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Well, I'm not really sure he'd be happy with CHs. It's not that he'd have any reason not to be happy with 'em, mind - but since he seems to fancy the Cougar's design and dislike that of the Fighterstick, you can't argue with quality and support but have to stick to ergonomics. So let's talk about the design - and if you think that both are replicas of the real deal you're just almost right.
The HOTAS Cougar, just like its predecessors, is a 1:1 replica of the stick and an almost 1:1 replica of the throttle of the F-16 - the Fighterstick is just closely modelled after the stick but no true replica, and the Pro Throttle is no replica of anything I'd know of. The Cougar features everything the real deal's controllers feature, too, except the idle-safety of the throttle: the dual-stage trigger, all buttons and hats and switches, the rotaries. The Figterstick doesn't feature a dual-stage trigger, and the paddle-switch is missing, too; instead of the single coolie, 2 3-way switches and 2 rotaries of the original throttle, the Pro Throttle features neither rotaries nor the original 3-way switches but only the analog mini-stick, but it provides 3 single buttons plus a total of 4 coolie-hats instead. All of the Cougar's coolies can be used fully 8-way (or 4-way, with or without corners, depending on what you want or need to set up) - of the CHs, each controller only features a single 8-way coolie, the others are only 4-way. All of the Cougar's buttons and coolies and switches provide a rather long throw with the best feel I've ever experienced - they feel so much better than the usual short-throw plastic buttons it is hard to describe. The CHs' buttons and coolies have a clear travel, too, and feel like high quality just as well - but not as good as the stunning feel of the Cougar's buttons. The Cougar's rest-plate at the base of the stick is large enough and extends towards the user to allow for a truly comfortable position of your right hand - the Fighterstick's plate is much smaller and does not extent towards the user, so it is rather uncomfortable in comparison. Altogether the Cougar feels like a part of your body while the CHs are ergonomical, but controllers in your hands. In terms of ergonomics, the Cougar wins hands down, with the CHs getting a very good second place (still much better than any Saitek, for instance).
So yes, I can fully understand what the people love about "that metal feel" - that's more than just being a snob, it is just great (mind, I'm only referring to the buttons, switches and coolies, not e.g. the gimbals)! The Cougar feels sexy - the CHs are high-quality implements. If that's what he's after - sex appeal ;) - then he'll be lucky and easily satisfied with the Cougar, while the CHs may take some time to convince by quality.
Unfortunately, that quality does not extent on the innards, especially the gimbals: the stock gimbals of the Cougar come along with such great tolerances that an increasing center-play can be an issue. The stock springs are very, very stiff (to hald the metal grip, of course), and if you're not mainly into jet sims but prefer WWII you may hate them (and learn to detest them even more). Luckily, these issues can be solved - though this means the need to invest further money into the Cougar to get modded gimbals. If you expect your high-end HOTAS to be top notch straight out of the box, then the Cougar can be a disappointment - but if you're aware of its potential issues and woes and don't mind to spend some more money, then you can make it (almost) exactly the stick you want it to be. For WWII sims I'd recommend Ian's current gimbals, the Über2next, which requires Ernest's Hall-sensors - not cheap, exactly, but worth it if you consider it worth it!
I hope this may help you a bit to make up your mind. If you should have further questions - let's say about the support (or the lack thereof) or the programming capabilities (in both cases it's a clear 1st place for the CHs, with the Cougar limping way behind) - just ask.
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Thank you again.