Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: 1epic1 on June 18, 2006, 12:56:29 AM
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In real life guns would jam or over heat after about 5-7 seconds of constant firing. How about this happening in Aces High?
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hey man, dont be a sprayer hater
:furious :furious :furious :furious :noid :noid :O
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ive never had a .50 cal jam on me... as long as you take care of it... i did have one freeze up on me when i was in Kosovo several years ago..
now, having jamming guns in AH would be interesting but how would you be able to perform corrective actions on the weapon to correct the jam?? in real life if the gun jams all they would do it open the feed try and extract the jammed shell.. we cant do that in the game... result would be a dead gun..
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Good Idea!
I would like to see this implemented on all aircraft, GVs and boats. Right now a bomber formation sometimes resembles a fountain of fire.
Fire the gun for too long, "long " depending on type of weapon and the weapon overheats (maybe starts smoking excessively) and Jams. Dunno if they even could do any corrective action in real life on fighters whilst airborne.....
Maybe them early way planes like A6MS with the guns in the cockpit did.....dont think a P51 ever could.
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guns in the zero could be cleared by pilot.p51 guns jammed frequently,as high g moves jammed the outside guns on the b model. was corrected in the d model.if u didnt use short burst with any plane,a jam could result.
irondog
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Originally posted by 101ABN
in real life if the gun jams all they would do it open the feed try and extract the jammed shell.. we cant do that in the game... result would be a dead gun..
There could always be an extra feature implemented which would require the pilot to activate it when the gun jams. When activated an animation rolls showing the gun being opened, the jam getting fixed, the gun get closed and armed.
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not bad bt how would u fly while this lil anmation is laoding?
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Considering the number of Gs that are being pulled during the average
furball in here, jammed guns would do nothing to gameplay but piss off the
customer base.
What's next..oxygen system failures, shock cooling...how about a lovely
birdstrike? :D
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oxygenfailers=no thanks:confused:
shock cooling-?
birdstrikes-:noid plz dont add that birds hate me:noid
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You mean to tell me that you don't know how to use your .303 calibers?
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Originally posted by Rino
Considering the number of Gs that are being pulled during the average
furball in here, jammed guns would do nothing to gameplay but piss off the
customer base.
you are right, but having this implemented on bombers (esp b17/24) and GV would be nice, the b17/24 need this because on average there are anywhere from (1-3 planes) 5-20 guns shooting at once (counting each individual gun) for one formation alone, thats just a ridiculous amount of bullets flying at one time.
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Learn how to properly engage the bombers in AH and you won't have to worry about their guns. Just sayin'.
ack-ack
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im not suggesting it for me, i have no problems taking down bombers unless im in a mk1, but this is a sim is it not? y not add this into AH it will also stop "sprayers" and help people to conserve ammo
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Originally posted by Nemeth
im not suggesting it for me, i have no problems taking down bombers unless im in a mk1, but this is a sim is it not? y not add this into AH it will also stop "sprayers" and help people to conserve ammo
Because its a game. Email HT and ask if it's a game or a sim, if ya don't believe me.
Bronk
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Originally posted by 1epic1
In real life guns would jam or over heat after about 5-7 seconds of constant firing. How about this happening in Aces High?
Originally posted by Nemeth
you are right, but having this implemented on bombers (esp b17/24) and GV would be nice, the b17/24 need this because on average there are anywhere from (1-3 planes) 5-20 guns shooting at once (counting each individual gun) for one formation alone, thats just a ridiculous amount of bullets flying at one time.
Originally posted by Nemeth
im not suggesting it for me, i have no problems taking down bombers unless im in a mk1, but this is a sim is it not? y not add this into AH it will also stop "sprayers" and help people to conserve ammo.
I can't remember who started the topic (Maybe Batfink?), but a while back, something similar came up. Instead of modeling the jamming, which would definitely peeve people to no end, the suggestion was to at least make the MGs slaved to your firing position (i.e. all unmanned guns firing with yours) fire in a more "realistic" manner. To prevent overheating/jamming, gunners were trained to fire in short bursts of usually 3 seconds or less. So, the slave guns would fire 3 seconds, then not fire for 3 seconds. Firing cycles would be staggered, so that at any one point, only half of your total slaved guns would be firing.
I liked the idea for the ammo conservation part of it, as 15-21 guns firing at one target seemed to be a terrible waste of ammo (and I always run out before that last bandit is dead). I think Bat liked it because it lowered bomber lethality -- don't remember. And it would at least give a flavor of the trade off between filling the sky with lead and having to worry about jams.
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Jamming wouldn't happen in bombers. Why not? Because you could clear the jam in a half a second. The only place jamming would need to be modeled would be inside fighters' wings.
I'm not for it. I think HTC's stand on it is "no", since they don't want to prevent the player from doing stuff, they want to enable the player to do stuff. Or something like that.
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krustipedia lolololol:aok :aok :aok :aok :aok :aok :rofl :rofl :rofl
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Learn how to properly engage the bombers in AH and you won't have to worry about their guns. Just sayin'.
No doubt, atleast 85% of anyone who engages my bombers come in dead 6. I mean what do you expect when your coming at me at roughly 150MPH faster then i am and expect to survive lol gl with that. Id rather see the ability to put out engine/wing fires before i see "jamming".
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LTARget i remember that thread now, woah good memory :)
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i watched a MP company fire 2 belts from a .50 at a range one time with no stoppage.
The M2 is one of the best weapons in the world.
If anything needs modeled it should be the true damage of the 20mm german cannons.
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Originally posted by skycaptn
i watched a MP company fire 2 belts from a .50 at a range one time with no stoppage.
The M2 is one of the best weapons in the world.
If anything needs modeled it should be the true damage of the 20mm german cannons.
I suppose you have official documents that show the German 20mm cannons are modeled incorrectly or is something that you're just ASSuming?
ack-ack
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No, it's admitted that HTC has averaged the damage of the belting. The minengeschoss were substantially more powerful than this average, becuase there was only 1 or 2 of them for every 5 rounds. They were more explosive than Hispano rounds.
That's been rehashed for 5+ years now.
The thing about bombers isn't the guns. It's the speed. If the bomber even had just 1 set of guns (no drones) it would still be a speed issue.
I have a film from a month or two ago where I ran into B17s at alt, that were cruising, YES CRUISING AT HISTORICAL SPEEDS, and my 190 was able to easily make slashing attacks as LW were reported to make. His guns were able to hit me but there was none of this utter nonsense BS about the bomber flying so fast the fighter falls behind into a 6 position just to get a shot off.
THAT's the problem with bombers: their speed is FFT 100% of the time. When used historically it doesn't matter how many drones they have, they'll get eaten without escorts. I have the film of this if anybody is interested. I started lower and slower and had to climb up to the bombers, but was still able to overtake them and set up repeated attack runs. They weren't just letting me do it, either.
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I am interested in seeing your movie. Bomber speed in AH is, probably due to the short range they are being flown, waaay too high. Currently I see no real reason in game to have escorts. fly up to 15 or 18k at full throttle and you're set. If anyone catches up, press alt-x, after 5 seconds x. Repeat. Threat either dead by gunners or out of fuel after 20 minutes and 35k alt.
Matt
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Hrm... it's 3.2MB unzipped, and 1.7MB zipped. Not sure where I can host it, let me find a place.
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Picture Hangar wouldn't support .AHF as an extension so I had to zip it.
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/858_1169606303_190a8_0408.zip
Some things to note:
This was one of my very first days with rudder pedals. The film included the tail end of the previous sortie where I had some Ju88s in sight and rammed them because I'm still no good with the rudders (and consequently me griping about the pedals on 200). It also had the end results of the sortie, where I go and land. I trimmed it out to between two points: where I first spot the bombers, and where the last one dies.
Other things to note: My aim is terrible because of just getting the pedals. I nearly ram the bombers 2 or 3 times. However, I *AM* able to easily overtake, outclimb WHILE overtaking, and double back at will. I'm not even in a very fast plane.
The 190A8 performs poorly above 15k. However it's flying rings around these bombers, and it earns the reputation the real one had against US bombers in WW2. Seriously, if all bombers were limited to cruise speeds in level flight, it would be a slaughterfest. 999000 would have no multikill landings. Tatertot wouldn't exist. Bombers would require active escorts every time they took off. The dynamics of the game wouldn't be so messed up that bombers outrun fighters most of the time, and so forth.
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Originally posted by Keiler
I am interested in seeing your movie. Bomber speed in AH is, probably due to the short range they are being flown, waaay too high. Currently I see no real reason in game to have escorts. fly up to 15 or 18k at full throttle and you're set. If anyone catches up, press alt-x, after 5 seconds x. Repeat. Threat either dead by gunners or out of fuel after 20 minutes and 35k alt.
Matt
I'll take this any day of the week. If you're at 18K when I spot you, I'll climb to 24K before you can climb to 20K. And a fully fueled P-47N in this game can fly farther than a B-17, faster, and absolutely loves flying at 35K.
The only reason people can successfully fly bombers at 18K in this game is because all the fighters are lower than that. If people actually took the time to grab some altitude, and learned how to intercept them properly, bombers would become a deathwish, at any speed. Add some escorts, and then you've got a better chance.
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Thanks Krusty! :)
Stoney, sure if you already have some alt, and given enough patiens you will catch any bomber. A few years back in AH1 I just did what I wrote, dryflying a 190A8 in my Ki67. Accel, climb, accel, climb... after a few sectors he had to split and floated around 2 or 3 sectos back :)
He couldnt catch up.
Matt
[btw] That movie shows how bomber vs. Fighter fights SHOULD be. Nice flying, Krusty!
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plus the fact you get noobs and they fire all the ammo they got...figuring they get free ammo refills when they are running low
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
I suppose you have official documents that show the German 20mm cannons are modeled incorrectly or is something that you're just ASSuming?
ack-ack
Actually ack-ack i would love to enlighten you on some of the particulars of german made cannon damage.
documented occurances of (3) 30mm cannons taking tails off b-17's
and things of this nature exsist all over this thing called the "internet"
This "internet" while not a completely perfect source of information is a great deal more useful than trying to find the wwII pilots themselves due to something called "death" and "the fact that we killed most of them"
Now if i where truely "ASSuming" as you term it, I would have failed to look up sources of my information. Well happily using this "internet" I have some here.. most of these are above an 8th grade reading level so... read slowly. Also email me if any of the words dont make sense..
http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt/mg151-aircraft-weapon-ww2.html
This above link if clicked on will take you to an example of some of this information.
NOW we are learning!! isnt this fun!!
Next time you post a literary abortion like the one you did above consider the fact that others can be equally insulting. :cool: Have a nice day mental giant.
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Originally posted by Krusty
The dynamics of the game wouldn't be so messed up that bombers outrun fighters most of the time, and so forth.
I know we've hashed this out before Krusty, but I really don't understand how you have such a hard time catching bombers. B-24's/B-17's at around 20K are only able to reach 250-270 TAS at full throttle. P-47's, P-51's, 109K4, Ta-152--all these planes are flying over 400 TAS at that altitude. That's a closure rate of over 2 miles a minute! You could chase them down with a full sector's lead over you in 13 minutes or so.
I just don't understand...
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Originally posted by Stoney74
I know we've hashed this out before Krusty, but I really don't understand how you have such a hard time catching bombers. B-24's/B-17's at around 20K are only able to reach 250-270 TAS at full throttle. P-47's, P-51's, 109K4, Ta-152--all these planes are flying over 400 TAS at that altitude. That's a closure rate of over 2 miles a minute! You could chase them down with a full sector's lead over you in 13 minutes or so.
I just don't understand...
It's a repeated discussion that crops up again and again..... and again.....with little thought and less merit much of the time in relation to "a game".
A pilot that picks a proper interceptor and shows some patience and discipline will catch most buffs in most situations in this game. Then it comes down to gunnery on each side and tactics.
I can't pull up the plane stats any more.... guess the database inquiries not working any more, or a problem at my end, but I can't look up the model K/D ratios.... but I'm betting that the bombers get shot down at a pretty high percentage still. Plenty of people out there catch and kill them.
It's a game, which people tend to forget..... if it were modeled true to form, bombers AND fighters, ALL pilots would be bored to tears with 100's of miles between bases, and not 25. They would spend far more time traveling to fights. No one would lift bombers at all due to time investment they would require. So, the numbers for distances, and speeds don't reflect reality.
They are playability issues.
Finally, I fly buffs ..... most of the kills I make from the belly turret and rear gun position. Not my fault they attack from dead to low six position. They take the shortest route to get into range, and climbing while they do so, so their overtake speed sux. Easy prey.
If they got above me, and came from flanks with E...... much harder to bring enough guns to bear and get a good angle on them during their runs. They don't do this.
"Buffs fly too fast" ..... okay......
* Buffs fly in groups of 3, and not 30, or 100, or 1000 like they did in the war, most of the time.
* Buffs fly without escorts most of the time.
* Buffs limited to 1 gunner, and turret conversion should be adjustable on the fly to reflect the abilities of separate gunners at all positions to acquire a target.
* Buffs can't engage multiple enemy planes simultaneously.... need more gunners.
But, we buff drivers make due somehow.....
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As to the original post? Have to agree with 101ABN... never had a problem with a properly maintained M2 jamming on me.... 6 years as TC with mechanized Engineers and a tour in Iraq with Corps Wheeled Engineers attached to 1st Cav, OIF2, on convoy escort..... always fired when I needed it too..... even though mine was an ancient rebuild... lubrication came from WD-40.... pintel mount was jury rigged in bed of an up-armored 5-ton dump truck.
Even if an M2 jammed on a bomber crewman..... clearing and getting gun back in action takes 5 seconds under fire. Dealing with a split case stuck in the barrel might take a minute with a pocket knife.
Bursts too long? Maybe......in historical context...... but then, 30 second reload times? Flying missions with no brief and debriefs? Not performing maintenance on airframes and engines between missions? Getting to chose whatever plane and bomb load you want? Whoever heard of such things?
You folks is spoiled!
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Last tour:
B-24: 30099 deaths to 11897 kills = .39 K/D
B-17: 14805 deaths to 5129 kills = .35 K/D
Lanc: 24386 deaths to 7389 kills = .30 K/D
A couple of fighter comparisons:
LA-7 vs B-24: 1697 vs. 698 = 2.4 K/D advantage LA7
P-47N vs B-24: 389 vs. 88 = 4.4 K/D advantage P-47N
Ta152 vs B-24: 381 vs. 148 = 2.6 K/D advantage Ta152
N1K2 vs B-24: 1917 vs. 550 = 3.5 K/D advantage N1K2
190A8 vs B-24: 858 vs. 260 = 3.3 K/D advantage FW190A8
P-47D11 vs B-24: 176 vs. 32 = 5.5 K/D advantage P-47D11
I contend that the lower numbers for the cannon armed planes are over-reliance on the cannon and less tactics. Obviously, whomever is flying the D11 have better tactics. Only the Tempest, F4U-4 and 262 have a better ratio.
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Stoney, what you're not understanding is a very simple principle.... These planes can travel 400mph at that altitude if they dive from a higher alititude, or if they spend 10 minutes in level flight building up speed. When they take off from the ground, they must climb at slower speeds.
No plane that has to climb up to bombers is going 400mph. Even if you leveled out at full WEP (which you don't have anymore, because you used it up trying to climb) you still would only wave bye-bye to the bombers as they pull away from you.
I really don't understand how you have such a hard time catching bombers.
That's probably because you don't bother to try shooting them down unless they magically apear in front of you, lower, and sitting ducks.
Most of the time, stopping bombers (and I don't mean killing, I mean attempting to kill them before they shut down your base, or before they kill your CV, or before they bomb something you don't want bombed) is a reaction to a threat. The threat shows up already doing 250+mph, already at 15k-20k alt. Average climb speed for most planes is between 150 and 170mph. Average best climb rate is 3500fpm (some have over 4000fpm but only below 5k, after that it drops). So time to 15k is usually between 5 and 10 minutes. More if you're in a plane actually suitable for bomber-hunting (as they tend to be heavier and climb at a slower rate -- 110Gs, 190s, P47s, and so forth)
At 270mph a bomber can cover 25 miles (a full sector) in 10 minutes. That means before you even get to altitude, they are an entire sector away. If, miraculously, you time it exactly that you get to their altitude, in front of them, at the right time, you are still boned thoroughly because they're travelling 270mph and you're at about 160mph. Add to that you need to follow them and overtake them while climbing above them (for a better attack), and you're still boned thoroughly. Bomber interception in this game is a farce because unless you're sitting around twiddling your thumbs (i.e. with your thumb up yer ***) at 15k for 5 hours with nothing else to do, you're not ever EVER going to be traveling 400mph at 20k when you spot 20k bombers.
So please don't tell me the planes go 400mph at 20k. That doesn't come into play when you're accelerating from near-stall to catch a target diminishing further and further into the distance.
I'll reply to ted in another reply for length reasons.
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Ted, you've made some comments I can't let slide.
with little thought and less merit much of the time in relation to "a game"
Yes, it is a game. A game where bombers have advantage after advantage heaped upon them, with no detriment. Bombers disrupt the game. Look at all the griping about the furballers yelling at the toolshedders for bombing FH, or for sinking the CV during "a nice fight!", or for killing HQ, or for bombing the TT VHs, or for killing the FT hangars. Bombers are the most disruptive tool/weapon in the game, and most of the time it's by a single person, uncatchable, unstoppable, because they're coming in at 20k at 270+mph when everybody else is just taking off to stop them.
A pilot that picks a proper interceptor and shows some patience and discipline will catch most buffs in most situations in this game. Then it comes down to gunnery on each side and tactics.
Wrong. They will not. You can't tell which cons on a map are buffs. Sometimes you can guess if they're heading to HQ or if they're heading to a CV. Most of the time you cannot. You either rely on visual ID from some pilot, or a radar con (in case of HQ or CV), and both are limited to about 1 sector (or less) from the target. Again, see my response to stoney74. A bomber formation can cover that distance in 10 minutes, by which time you're only passing 10k, and that's if you're doing 5,000 fpm the entire time. If bombers had distinctive icons on the map dar, and showed up no matter where they were in relation to radar, then you might have something. Historically when bombers were in the air everybody knew about it. Everybody. The folks flying them, the folks hunting them, the folks plugging their ears and hoping no bombs fall on them as the bombers fly overhead. The spies, the observer corps. Bombers were not stealth weapons, as they are used in this game.
You can use that patience and up a fighter to be in front of the bombers if and only if you know where they are 30 minutes in advance, that's 3 sectors out. Radar doesn't even reach across 1 sector most of the time. You can use patience to intercept a bomber formation if you know these things, and this is evident with HQ raids. They are usually spotted well in advance, and most of the time the fighters are only just getting to the bombers' level when they come into view. Just barely, most of the time (not counting 163s). Even so, they still have to get speed up, and even if they are in front of the bombers and attack head-on, they are now behind them at a very high speed going the wrong way. If they turn around they've just blown all their speed and are now in a slow-closure-rate tail chase. Why? Because the bombers are still traveling 270+mph, when historic cruising speeds were 160mph for b17s and b24s. I don't know cruising speeds of lancasters.
So, planning ahead does jack watermelon when the bombers come into range at T=0, bomb all your FH down at T=6, and are rtb passing out of radar T=12, and.. oh yes, you're still 5k below them at T=12, and now your field is shut down.
The problem you're not seeing is that you're getting off scott free. All you do is put in time to climb out and level off. I know, I flew bombers a HELL of a lot, since AH came out. AH1 I liked to fly lancs exclusively on HQ runs for a while. All you need to do is climb and level. Full-frakking-throttle 100% of the time and all you have to do is man the tail guns.
I can't pull up the plane stats any more.... guess the database inquiries not working any more, or a problem at my end, but I can't look up the model K/D ratios.... but I'm betting that the bombers get shot down at a pretty high percentage still. Plenty of people out there catch and kill them.
That doesn't work, same way using kills/deaths on LA7 doesn't work. Why? Because a lot of idiots fly them too. There's a lot more suicide-dive-bombers than there are level bombers in this game. Hell I had a lancaster pull an immelman on me today and turn back to the target to dive bomb it after I took a drone off of him. Hell even I dive-bombed a field after 3 163s and a 190 were inside 1k of my Ju88 Ack got me more than anybody else, but I had a P51B chase me at 12k for 2 sectors and he could barely do anything but sit on my six and weave back and forth a few times. That's a P51B. One of the FASTEST unperked planes in the game.
They are playability issues.
Finally, I fly buffs ..... most of the kills I make from the belly turret and rear gun position. Not my fault they attack from dead to low six position. They take the shortest route to get into range, and climbing while they do so, so their overtake speed sux. Easy prey.
Exactly my point. Oh, and it *IS* your fault, because you're flying so fast they can't do anything *but* fall behind you. Even if they were level, you're going so fast that if they made a slashing attack from the side and you were going straight, the geometry means that they still fall behind you. You're forcing ... no, not just you, this game Aces High, is forcing all bomber-killers into a dead-six attack. It is highly unrealistic not only in regards to performance, but in regards to impact, in regards to effect, in regards to the potency of a tool (the level bomber). Like I said, Just FFT and sit in the tail gun. No need to do anything else. It's a flaw in the system.
If they got above me, and came from flanks with E...... much harder to bring enough guns to bear and get a good angle on them during their runs. They don't do this.
For a reason. Because they're slower than you and falling behind you. Now, IF (big if) somebody does come at you from the flank, from above, or from the front, you're still going over twice as fast as a bomber did historically. If they come in off the 2-3 oclock and make a slashing attack, they have little chance of scoring any major damage, and as they come out the other size you are now pulling away laterally, because you're going 270+mph in the other direction, and they're going 300mph the other way, that's roughly 600 mph of separation. You're pulling away like a frakking drag racer against a pinto. If they blow all their E and speed and turn around to make another ineffective slashing attack from the 9-10 oclock they lose all the energy they had after one pass. You're too fast. Nose attacks are worse, as the only way to "turn around" is dead 6, and the closure rate is even worse (often it's an opening rate). High attacks might be effective if executed properly, but after one pass you either are sitting off the nose of the formation a sitting duck, you dive through and lose your position for a second attack, or you pull up again. If you do the first two you're screwed. You can't reposition for an attack and if you do you put yourself into the meat grinder. If you pull up again you lose position, as you convert speed into alt the bombers pull ahead. You have alt but must lose more of it every run as you have to catch the fleeing bombers. Usually I find you can only do 3 vertical attacks, even if you're in the perfect spot, by #3 you're in a semi-high-six attack, vulnerable to the meat grinder.
Normally the bomber is still within range after fighters turn around for another pass. Now they have to turn to you, not only spend 5 more minutes catching you, but overtake well ahead of you, so that as they turn into you you come in at 270mph and time it just right so that, as they turn 90 degrees, you pass in front of them in the blink of an eye. Again you're still going 270+mph and they now start chasing you all over again.
* Buffs fly in groups of 3, and not 30, or 100, or 1000 like they did in the war, most of the time.
* Buffs fly without escorts most of the time.
* Buffs limited to 1 gunner, and turret conversion should be adjustable on the fly to reflect the abilities of separate gunners at all positions to acquire a target.
* Buffs can't engage multiple enemy planes simultaneously.... need more gunners.
First, if they fly without escorts it's their fault. Get a friend, advertise, hell use a mission. There's hundreds that want easy kills.
Second, it doesn't matter if they have 1 gunner if that gunner has the effectiveness of 30 crewmen (10 men x 3 planes) all in one gunner position. Historically bomber guns were ineffective. They relied on 1000+ formations for safety, and still were shot down so much the 8th halted bomber missions until escorts were improved. Yet, in this game a single 3-plane formation can take on and kill 5+ enemy planes in a single mission and land safely after having bombed its targets to rubble. I've done this myself many times. This is beyond "it's a game" -- this is "we're pandering to bombers".
Third, buffs rarely need to engage multiple planes. The only time I have EVER seen fighters attack in a pincer on a bomber formation has been when *I* suggested it to a squaddie. It worked well for me, my squaddie got shot down. If there are multiple planes, they're all dead 6 because the bomber is going so fast they naturally fall behind. In this case it doesn't matter how many "gunners" you have onboard, the tail gun would only be able to fire at 1 plane, and with only 2 guns instead of 12-18 (tail, ball, and/or dorsal for 3 aircraft) all slaved to instantly saw the enemy wing off. If it were the way you wanted, 2 rounds from the tail gun might make an enemy cringe, but the way we have it now most first-hits are kill-shots on the fighters attacking the bombers. That means you can move to the next target and kill it in a short burst. Your effectiveness is far far FAR above that of a "1-man-per-gun" setup. The only folks that think it isn't are nostalgic for Warbirds. That's a different game.
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I suggest you both view the film I put up a few posts above this one. You see how effective guns are in any other situation? The same guns, I'm still taking hits, the only difference is the speed of the bombers. Hell this guy shot down 2 before I got to him. They came in dead-six I think.
Watch that film and think about this game. This game doesn't re-create WW2. It gives you the tools of WW2 and lets you use them (i.e. P51 vs Spitfire, which historically would never happen). However, having bombers fly at full speed all the time at all alts with slaved guns and 3 drones is like giving us a 2,000lb P51H with a 4,500hp engine and a 10,000fpm climb rate. It's enhancing the actual effectiveness of the real weapon/tool far far FAR past what it could ever do in the war.
Actually it's like having a P51 that flies 2x its cruising speed (i.e. 700mph) all the time without overheating, oh and you get 3x guns (18) all killing whatever you aim at, and if you get shot down there's no penaltytil your third death!.
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Originally posted by Krusty
That's probably because you don't bother to try shooting them down unless they magically apear in front of you, lower, and sitting ducks.
That's awlful presumptuous of you isn't it? You have no idea how I intercept bombers.
At 270mph a bomber can cover 25 miles (a full sector) in 10 minutes.
Here's part of your problem--your math... At 270 TAS, you're covering 4.5 miles per minute (270mph/60min=4.5 miles/min). That's one sector in 5.5 minutes. So, its even worse than you thought.
But, you're right. You can't climb up even with bombers a sector out from their target and have any chance of catching them. If that's the criteria for sim-realism, I think you're reaching. The Allies wouldn't have even invented chaff if the Germans hadn't relied on radar to help them predict where the formations were going to be. In AH, you're also correct that you can't tell what type of targets are coming in on the radar and its always cluttered with both fighters and bombers. The Germans knew that the big blob showing up on the radar set represented masses of B-17's, 24's, or Lancs (at night).
Generally, I find myself taking off a base back from the action, and typically climb to at least 15k, arriving over the fight at altitude, and already up to speed. I suppose this gives me the ability to climb and still intercept, but its hardly a concept that I came up with on my own. To me, it gives me options if the bad guys are a bunch of fighters, bombers, or a combination. Regardless, I still look at the map, and if I see slow moving darbar 3 sectors behind the fight, I assume they're bombers and begin to prepare. I'll do some testing and try to compile some film and I guess we can debate whatever information I have in the future.
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Sorry on both points (my comment and my math), it was 1:30 AM when I typed it.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Sorry on both points (my comment and my math), it was 1:30 AM when I typed it.
As for climbing out to 15k from a rear base, that only helps you if you don't care what you run into. If you specifically want to stop enemy bombers you don't have that luxury. The bombers you kill will be ones you just "happen across" -- and you won't have any imperative to protect your field/HQ/CV/assets.
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Originally posted by Krusty
As for climbing out to 15k from a rear base, that only helps you if you don't care what you run into. If you specifically want to stop enemy bombers you don't have that luxury. The bombers you kill will be ones you just "happen across" -- and you won't have any imperative to protect your field/HQ/CV/assets.
I take a p47 or p51 and fly around enemy areas...if i run into bombers they are dead
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Yes, but you're not trying to stop any, you're just attacking any that you happen across. Very different sort of mission.
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Krusty, on several occasions, myself and my squaddies will pack some drop tanks, climb to 20K or so, and purposefully target bombers coming into a specific base.
Some times we go out purposefully looking for fighters, and fly lighter. Sometimes we don't find anyone wanting to tangle at altitude, so we pick up whatever we find--which lots of times are bombers droning from point A to B.
Regardless, I think the key is to put yourself in a position to intercept before the ordnance release point, either by building SA from Darbar, watching the fight move around the map, or by just plain dumb luck. One night a couple of weeks ago, the Knits in one of the LW arenas put together a about 30 B-17's in a pretty good formation with about 4 P-51 escorts. Me and a squaddie in 2 P-47D25's made about 6 or 7 passes on the formation. They were all flying in excess of 20,000 feet. We both picked up a couple or 3 bomber kills while darting through the formation and evading the escorts. Each pass took a 3-5 minute climb to get back up to altitude and get back into position to attack. We both flew home with operable planes and no grease on the windshield. It was extremely fun and extremely competitive. We picked up a solid, sector-wide darbar about 4 sectors behind the fight, and upped in time to get to altitude to intercept, or so we thought. We were at 20K thinking the typical bomber mission coming in lower than that. They arrived in front of us co-altitude or higher, and we had to make a climbing turn back into them to get to a spot that would allow us to attack without committing suicide. We had plenty of fuel, and plenty of ammo. The whole engagement lasted approximately 20 mins, at which time some friendlies had finally made it to the fight, which we handed off to them and returned to base.
Just an example.
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Krusty I looked at the film. A few things you will notice if you watch from teh bombers viewpoint with trails on. The bomber has his flaps down at the start of the flight. He opens his bomb bay doors at the start of the fight. He makes several turns in the fight putting you in his forward quarter. He is going slow and you are catching him and getting into good possition but it's not because he is cruising. That being said to hit with a bomber formation from above 20k you have to be going slower so generaly the 78th isn't going firewall with our 17s. We do kick up the juice after the drop if we are trailing bandits. Most do go for the climbing 6 attack and sometimes I will just let the TG's take care of them if we have other smarter intercepters in the area that have climbed above us as they move to intercept. You know it's going to be fun when they move out to the side and try to get in front.
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Even with flaps and doors he should have been going much faster if he was full throttle. For whatever reasons, he was at cruising speed, even if he wasn't cruising. The results would have been the same if he were intentionally cruising. Bombers at full throttle you cannot make a second attack upon. You can only make one attack and then waste 5-10 minutes repositioning for a second attack. Completely unlike anything these bombers could/would do in real life.
B17s cruised at 160. However, in this game they run all the time (they "cruise") at 270. That's nearly 2x speed. The equivelant would be having a 190A8 fly at 700mph without overheat (and then having more with WEP), or a P51 flying at 800mph without overheating (ever) at full throttle and then even more speed with WEP. It's something these aircraft couldn't do, yet the bombers in AH do it
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i think this is an excellent idea
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Krusty,
we do have to change that, ive played games that airforce had made
and I havent seen any p51 and 190D fight at 400mph....and after thw dogfight one of them still can do a 10 second 90 degree climb