Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: cav58d on June 18, 2006, 10:42:55 AM
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HTC/Skuzzy....The next major scenario will include the Japanese versions of the 162, 262 and AR234....We only have german skins so far...Can you please accept Japanese skins for these aircraft, even if its only for the scenario??? I just dont think it would be up to scenario standards to be flying a jap jet with german markings if ya know what i mean...So even if its only temporarily accepted for the days of scenario, I think you would make a lot of us happy...
Can you please respond to this ASAP so skinners can get started (if you accept them)
thanks
happy fathers day to all the dads at HTC!:noid
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Ohh and while your at it can ya add the b-29 ,f7f, bearcat, p80, twin mustang, and the p51 h.
:aok
Bronk
My tongue is firmly in my cheek.
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Only, the japanese versions of the 163, the 262, and the 234, were the equivelant of Luft'46, never produced, only "tinkered" with. They were pipe dreams, designed for a country with all the resources to make them, not for the resource-starved Japanese islands. They'd never have made full production, even if they had time to start. Heck, even conventional craft like the Ki84 ran into SERIOUS quality control -- and it's a simple radial!
I don't think the skins really have a place, as they were "mythical" aircraft.
Not to mention the Japanese didn't just design clones, they took the German plans and upgraded them, including doubling the range on the 163 and various other designs.
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If I remember correctly the Japanese versions of the 262 and 163 were also going to be larger than their German counterparts.
From what I recall the Japanese had a lot of jet and rocket powered stuff that we may have seen in the air if the war had drug on another month or so.
I really can't imagine a scenario that even could include them, it would have to be a "what if" type of one.
I would think it's highly unlikely that Japanese skins would even be considered for them.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
snip
I really can't imagine a scenario that even could include them, it would have to be a "what if" type of one.
I would think it's highly unlikely that Japanese skins would even be considered for them.
What if there's a "what if" scenario to play? :)
culero
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Skuzzy is not the one bribes need to go to for this;)
Originally posted by Kev367th
I would think it's highly unlikely that Japanese skins would even be considered for them.
oops:aok
(http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/1777/2623yu.jpg)
I've said too much:noid
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But it's like putting a Ki61 skin on a Me109E. One was based off the other, but they weren't the same craft. They had the same layout, the same look, but all the details were different, including performance and armament.
Shouldn't be done in this case.
What do you call these? "Jap '46"? "Luft '46" is specifically Luftwaffe... Not sure the monosyllabic equivelant for the IJA/IJN
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hmmm... What If? (http://ahevents.org/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=122&Itemid=153) the Japanese did not surrender after we used our only 2 atomic weapons? What if we were forced to invade Japan... What if the war was drawn out another year.
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It's my understanding that the first Japanese 262 flight happened the day we dropped the first nuke on Japan. To little, to late.
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Yes, what if? What if a nation that was so resource starved it had no gas, no engines, no production plants to produce engines, -- what if this nation (while under seige from all directions) tried to even START production runs on high-tech advanced jet and rocket fighters and bombers?
The end result is utter failure. Hell even the Germans had a hard time producing enough refined metal to create the turbine blades of their jet engines. The decimated Japanese industry couldn't even have started, let alone finished, enough jet engines to fit a squadron, let alone enough planes to halt a war.
No, had the war dragged on it would have been bloody, but it would have been with the conventional radial-engined aircraft the Japanese forces already had.
Like I said, pipe dreams, from a nation that couldn't even build CONVENTIONAL designs properly at the end of the war. Pilots taking off in Ki84s (built in 1944 even) didn't know if they would be able to retract their landing gear, or if it would snap off on landing, or even if their engine would allow them to climb up to the enemy, or if it would even function at that altitude.
And you think they'd really produce thousands of jet fighters and stop the allies dead? :p (*mild sarcasm*)
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who said anything about thousands?
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Originally posted by Raptor
hmmm... What If? (http://ahevents.org/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=122&Itemid=153) the Japanese did not surrender after we used our only 2 atomic weapons? What if we were forced to invade Japan... What if the war was drawn out another year.
Different definately, but not a reason to allow non-historic skins in-game.
In fact they break two golden for skins -
1) Must be historic
2) Seen combat.
This would open the door to the "formation" polka dot B-24, test plane skins etc.
Don't think it will be allowed.
I couldn't get a Spit IX through that WAS historic, but was only used for testing purposes at Wright Field. Shame, it had noseart the full length of the nose.
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Originally posted by Raptor
who said anything about thousands?
Who said anything about tens? You'd not even get as many as that, had the war progressed.
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I think for once me and Krusty agree on something ...EEEK
Allowing these would open the door to -
1) Buff formation planes, i.e. polka dot B-24
2) Test plane schemes.
3) Demonstration camo schemes, i.e. B-24 with multiple painted images of itself.
etc etc.
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Not just skins, it would be a "gateway" into allowing new aircraft in... We'd see things like the Do335, the F7F, the German stratospheric bomber that could level New York without refueling! The Japanese 6-engined bomber that could (theoretically) fly to San Fancisco without refueling and drop chemical and biological weapons! zOMG!
Sorry, I don't mean to be rude. What I mean to say is that it opens the way for aircraft that have no point, purpose, or place in this game.
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never said those skins would make it to the MA, think Okinawa AH1.
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Unless you build them into the map itself (AH1 Okinawa) , I don't think there is a way to make skins available in one arena and not another.
So if allowed, would be available in the MA also.
Maybe a terrain/map maker can do it for you.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Unless you build them into the map itself (AH1 Okinawa) , I don't think there is a way to make skins available in one arena and not another.
By George he's got it!;)
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Who's this George bloke ;) .
Seriously -
I think you'll need a terrain maker to take it on, I wouldn't think HT has the spare time at the moment.
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I don't see what the huge deal is about making a few "what if" skins available for a few weeks of a scenario only... Or even in a map, only, if possible still. If that's not possible, you just take the skins away when the frames aren't going on. If they're temporary (like everyone for them seems to have requested) they're not going to open any flood gates. Some of you guys really need to get a grip lol :)
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Vudak - How about reading the skinning forum guidelines on what will get accepted.
If there isn't time to build them into a map they'd have to go on 'general' release.
We would then have them until the next skins update could remove them, and thats a lot more than a few weeks.
I know from speaking to Skuzzy they are currently working on another patch that they are hoping will make this release 'stable', so I don't think HT's crew will have the time to build them into a map.
Once thats done they are then going to update the skinviewer, and then release more skins. Just can't see where the time for a map build is going to come from.
Oh timeline - No idea, 2 weeks?
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Vudak - How about reading the skinning forum guidelines on what will get accepted.
Kev - how about reading the very first post - where Cav asks that they only be allowed for the scenario... I take that as another way of saying "get rid of them right after it, since they're obviously not up to the guidelines."
Why you and Krusty are getting all bent out of shape over this, I can't figure out.
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Vudak, it doesn't work the way you think it does.
First, HTC has to vet all maps that co on the servers. You give it to them and THEY compile it, is what I gather.
Second, adding a default skin for even a handful of aircraft can triple or quadruple the file size of the map itself.
Third, HTC might not want to allow these default skins (for whatever reasons they have).
When you're in the SEA or AVA the skins you see are all "HTC approved," they are not just random skins you see being put into the map itself.
So, basically, if HTC doesn't want a skin, they won't allow it, or won't include it when it's built by them.
Otherwise the only other route is HTH, and with 8 players max it's not worth the effort to put custom skins in a map.
Skins in this game are not temporary. It can take up to 6 months to start, create, finish, submit, wait for approval (if you get it) and then only do you see it in-game. Skins are not made just-for-events, nor ar they for what-if events. When approved they are kept in the game until the 3D model changes and they no longer display properly. It's not so easy to just put a skin in and then take it out again.
Kev and I were "bent out of shape" on the premise that a mythical skin for a what-if scenario that would never have happened, using a plane substitute that isn't the proper plane would be included in AH. We've both done a couple of skins and we realize the requirements for skins and why this isn't a good idea. I don't call that "bent out of shape" -- rather trying to inform folks of what "the shape" is :lol
So far this has been a calm and easy-going thread. At the same time we were discussing things clearly and stating our reasons (both sides) etc. That's all. :aok
EDIT: Kev, P.S. Raptor makes maps, does that clear things up a tad? :P
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Originally posted by Kev367th
I think you'll need a terrain maker to take it on, I wouldn't think HT has the spare time at the moment.
You're absolutely right. What was I thinking? Now where can I find one of these "Map maker" fellas:confused:
(http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/5598/image27hf.jpg)
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You may still have to spell it out for some.;)
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Krusty, I didn't know anyone was asking you to make the skin? Anyway from the first few posts of yours it just seemed like you were missing what Cav said, but thanks for clearing that up.
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Originally posted by Krusty
When approved they are kept in the game until the 3D model changes and they no longer display properly. It's not so easy to just put a skin in and then take it out again.
When the 3d model is redone, the skin becomes obsolete and no longer shows in the terrain. Instead it will show the new default skin in its place. That is when we take the terrain and update it (poor skuzzy). Karelia was updated several times before the scenario, though that is something I would like to avoid.
Krusty, you make it sound like the scenario should be wingless ki-84s, m3s and jeeps vs the entire US planeset.
Now I will argue my case, for I tried to just let this be a teaser but you need an explanation. The Japanese, though they were limited to imported supplies, were not as deprived of natural resources as you make it sound like. The last bomb raid of the war hit oil refineries in Northern Japan that, though not completely out of the range of B29s, were at the limit of how far the b29 could fly (round trip). They would not have had missions going so far if they had not captured Iwo Jima and Okinawa. Also the Japanese had a test site for airplanes inside a mountain and it remained intact throughout the war and was not effected by B29 bombing. The plans on the larger version of the 163, the Ki-200, consisted largely of wood.
http://aerostories.free.fr/reaction/Ki-200.jpg
They would not have been making plans for these aircraft if they did not have the resources to build them. Both the Shusui and Karyuu flew before the war ended, so they most likely would have been able to compile atleast one squadron of each.
The 234 is being incorporated to simulate several things. First off, the Japanese had plans for a jet powered bomber, which would have flown the kamikazi rocket plane within range of US carriers. Since Kamikazi attacks have no effect in AH, the 234's bombs will have to make up for that.
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Originally posted by Bronk
Ohh and while your at it can ya add the b-29 ,f7f, bearcat, p80, twin mustang, and the p51 h.
:aok
Bronk
My tongue is firmly in my cheek.
LOL.:aok
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I guess all these guys want German skins in the Operation Downfall scenario .
:(
either that or we leave out the 262's 163's and 234's ...
And Krusty your wrong ... totally wrong .
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Well the Japanese planeset has so many holes... you would think they would let us give em a bone so they aren't completely outmatched by the US.
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Originally posted by Raptor
Well the Japanese planeset has so many holes... you would think they would let us give em a bone so they aren't completely outmatched by the US.
It's a good idea Raptor, then again like Bronk pointed out there are huge holes in the 1946 US plane set.
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Originally posted by Raptor
hmmm... What If? (http://ahevents.org/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=122&Itemid=153) the Japanese did not surrender after we used our only 2 atomic weapons? What if we were forced to invade Japan... What if the war was drawn out another year.
Sounds familiar.
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=108016&referrerid=4072
Was fun then and Im sure this will be ten times better. Looking forward to this Raptor:aok
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You guys are freaking nuts! does a jap meatball on the 262's 163's and 234's for a SCENARO really get you this pissy? How the hell do you come up with adding the b-29, f8f and whatever other crap you threw out? CM team....whats your opinion???? Do you really want to run this event in german markings when it can easily be changed and dropped as soon as the event is over
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LMAO cav you are to ez.
Its a what if scenario as in nov 45 . Cav the war was over in august.
The b-29 was operational in what late 44?
All the other AC i listed I think were on line by the time of the invasion date.
So... If we have JAP 163s , 262s, and 234s. Allied should have their super duper late war AC , no?
That's why I tagged on my request .
Have a nice day.
Bronk
Tongue is still in cheek.
Edit: First combat for a b-29 was June 5 1944. This what if scenario gets better and better.
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I understand it is a "what if" scenario....I also understand that the aircraft we are using are not the same models the japs had, or were trying to build...They are German Jets....BUT...These German jets are representing their Japanese counterparts...What would be the harm in allowing a jap skin to be flown on these aircraft during the scenario only???? What I love about scenarios is that they are as close to realism as I have ever seen in a multiplayer online flight simulator (I KNOW IT'S A WHAT IF SCENARIO), and I think flying jets with german markings while they are supposed to be representing the Japanese would take away from the event...Allowing these skins for the scenario only would only add to the event...
In regards to the B-29 or any other aircraft you mentioned, I think it would be stupid to ADD any aircraft into this scenario...The CM team has decided that these three existing aircraft will represent their Jap counterparts...
I think it would be one thing if I were asking to have these be put in the Main arena or other arenas...I dont think its belongs there, but even if the only way to do this was to allow these skins in all arenas during the duration on the scenario, would it really be that big of a deal? Unless you have forgotten, we have dive bombing lancasters, a collission system where only 1 person gets damage, and the strangest ditch model on earth...Even if skins could not be used exclusively in the SEA during the days of the event, and as a last resort, had to be made available in the MA for the 4 weeks that the scenario will run, is it really going to affect a game that has unrealistic flaws, or your personal gameplay?
Scenario guys and HTC staff.....Do you have any thoughts on this
dive bombing lancasters....ditches
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Originally posted by cav58d
when it can easily be changed and dropped as soon as the event is over
Thats exactly what they were getting at.... it CANT be easily changed and dropped.
Skins have either to be approved for ALL online use (ie MA) - which wont happen to your so called "what if" skins.
Or they will have to be built into the TERRAIN itself. Looking at that CM Terrain Team...... im pretty sure we wont see German markings on Japs planes. But thats just me guessing and i do know that things are a lot more complicated then just "skinning it and add it to the map".
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The default skin for the jets will be in Japanese markings. They will only be available in arenas using the Japan terrain. I agree with Bronk, we would need all of those late war US planes, but we do not have them. We also need more Japanese planes such as the ki-43, G4M, but we do not have them either. But putting F4u4s, P51Ds, P47Ns up agains Ki-84s, N1KJs and Ki-61s isn't exactly fairl, but with the Ki-84 it is more balanced than past scenarios. The Jets will be limited, you are not going to see F4u4s up against 262s on a regular basis.
It's not as complicated as you all make it seem.
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Thanks Raptor...Just spoke with rosc and he also confirmed we will be getting the Jap skins for the event! wooooo whooo! Gonna make it all the better!
for putting it together, cant wait!
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If we put Bronk's avatar in the US CVs and JB28's avatar in the Japanese towers, will everyone be happy?:D
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Originally posted by Raptor
If we put Bronk's avatar in the US CVs and JB28's avatar in the Japanese towers, will everyone be happy?:D
I second this idea . This may cause to many lawndarts on both sides though.
:D
And just so you know I really don't care about skins or LW ac used .
Its a fine scenario and am looking forward to it.
I just couldn't miss an opportunity to spin cav up.
Bronk
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Theres something both bronk and I can agree on! lmao:noid
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Originally posted by Schatzi
Thats exactly what they were getting at.... it CANT be easily changed and dropped.
Skins have either to be approved for ALL online use (ie MA) - which wont happen to your so called "what if" skins.
Or they will have to be built into the TERRAIN itself. Looking at that CM Terrain Team...... im pretty sure we wont see German markings on Japs planes. But thats just me guessing and i do know that things are a lot more complicated then just "skinning it and add it to the map".
With all due respect Schatzi, having a sleigh led by flying reindeer, or a bunch of hovering PT boats aren't realistic either. But we have them for a day or so every now and then (no one complains - well, not many complain :) ) so what's the big deal about having a few "what if skins" available in the MA for a few Saturdays of a month for the benefit of a scenario? After that Saturday, just make 'em unavailable again until next week.
I understand what the skinners are getting at now, but I don't see it as an insurmountable obstacle :)
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Vudak the sleigh is in there all the time, and the PTs are already in there. HTC just unlocks certain parts of the code at certain times. A skin would be there all the time :(
HTC are far too busy to put a skin in the skin pack, in the high res pack, to enable it for DL on all the servers, then undo all their work a day or so later. Hey, it would be cool if they had that kind of turnaround, but it doesn't seem to be the case. Rap's way is the only way it could be done (included in a map) and that's basically permanent for the map whenever anybody uses it.
Just a FYI. I'm not arguing my point anymore. I've said my mind. This was more in response to the complexity of pulling it off.
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The only way you were going to get in was by someone building them into the terrain, so I guess it's in Raptors court.
Adding and pulling skins isn't as easy as some seem to think it is.
Each time requires the whole skinpack to be rebuilt.
Add to that the time between skin updates, it was highly unlikely they'd ever get released for general use.
HTC have far too much stuff on their plate at the moment to worry about non-historical skins.
Last time I spoke to Skuzzy (last week)
1) Another patch to hopefully get this current release stable and fix more bugs.
2) Then update skinviewer
3) Then new skins
All this with TOD (or whatever the hell it's called now) development ongoing.
I'm sorry - 1 day (not even a day, a few hours tops) A YEAR when HT flies around the MA in his sleigh is hardly a precedent for adding non-historically skins to the MA.
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You and Krusty keep implying that it is going to be submitted like a typical skin. I've already stated it is going to be built into the terrain, so lets just let that thought go.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
I'm sorry - 1 day (not even a day, a few hours tops) A YEAR when HT flies around the MA in his sleigh is hardly a precedent for adding non-historically skins to the MA.
How did you come to that conclusion?:huh
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Originally posted by Raptor
You and Krusty keep implying that it is going to be submitted like a typical skin. I've already stated it is going to be built into the terrain, so lets just let that thought go.
Think I said that on the very first line.
My point was it's not as easy as people think to add/remove skins globally, and that HT has a lot on his on his plate at this time.
Please Slash27 - In that case if we can have Santas sleigh, why not any other fantasy aircraft you can think of.
How about because Christmas night is a ONE off bit of fun. for an hour or two each year, and not a precedent for any fantasy aircraft or skin you might like.
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Im sorry I ever started this stupid thread...The CM guys have enough on their plate, and BBS argueing isnt something else they need to worry about before the event...I should have contacted them first....
I also didnt realize the complexity of "temporarily" or "permenantly" adding a skin into the game....Underestimation on my part. Either way the skins will be jap during the event so theres nothing else to say accept ...HTC "nothing to see here move along" - For the sake of rosc and the other CM guys
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Please Slash27 - In that case if we can have Santas sleigh, why not any other fantasy aircraft you can think of.
How about because Christmas night is a ONE off bit of fun. for an hour or two each year, and not a precedent for any fantasy aircraft or skin you might like.
The skins will be for a scenario. Who's asking for them to be added to the MA?
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Originally posted by Kev367th
I'm sorry - 1 day (not even a day, a few hours tops) A YEAR when HT flies around the MA in his sleigh is hardly a precedent for adding non-historically skins to the MA.
I will admit, it was a bit of an extreme example :D
It seems what I suggested is not feasable. But I also can't help but get the feeling you aren't reading what I suggest. I was suggested 4 days a year in the MA. Not adding non-historical's for good.
Oh well.