Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: streakeagle on June 18, 2006, 01:28:02 PM
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If you haven't ever flown R/C aircraft because they were too expensive or you didn't have a place you could fly, you really need to try out the Air Hogs Aero Ace: http://www.airhogs.com/aeroace.html
I have flown full size gas powered R/C aircraft and don't really want to mess with all the hassles or expenses, but I have been keeping my eye on the under $40 foam flyers in the Walmart/Target toy departments. Finally, I stumbled onto one that flies exceptionally well both inside larger rooms (double car garage or larger) and outside on relatively calm days. There are many similar competing models, some of them are scale WW2 aircraft, but none of the other models have 2-channel proportional controls: that is fully variable throttle (for pitch control) and yaw (via left/right engine speed differences). I bought the Air Hogs F-16 from Target first... only to discover that it had only high/medium/low throttle or left/right controls (not proportional). It flies okay, but is fast enough to need a large area, the battery dies quickly, and you can't control very well. I was looking up the F-16 when I stumbled onto AeroAce topics in web forums, so I went back to Target and upgraded to this awesome tiny biplane for only $25 plus 6 AA batteries.
One little tip: don't apply the decals! The extra weight destroys the climbing ability of the aircraft. I had flown for a day and a half and decided to apply the decals. It wouldn't climb any more. I had to peel mine off to be able to climb again, which messed up the smoothness of the foam wing.
The Aero Ace is so easy to fly that anyone (even small children) can do it even if they have never flown an airplane before. However, it is capable enough to entertain skilled fliers. It is so light that you can't really damage it by crashing, but that means it does not fly very with any significant level of wind. There are entire webpages dedicated to this model airplane, including some that offer mods and spare parts: http://www.aeroacemods.com/aam/default.asp
I can't say enough about how fun this plane is! Everyone at work is going to get one. They come in three different channels, too. Hopefully, someone will have bought one over the weekend so that we can try dogfighting :)
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Just bought one of these and they are too cool!!! U all need to get one!!
Get the Bi-plane type!!...I tryed the Helecoptor it did'nt make it out of the box only stays up for 30 seconds to a min....and the bigger on that does stunts..needs a big field...and its hard to control...also I bought the stealth fighter jet.....it also needs alot of room to fly....and on all these planes there
has to be very low winds!
I cliped the bottom wings off and put a weight on front and it flys alot better!!
My first areo ace is in the top of my neighbors tree..bout...50 feet up!! Wind will blow it wherever its wants!!
Thanks for post im having a blast with this toy!!!
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I have 2 different kinds. Both are alot of fun. I practiced on them before upgrading.
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Originally posted by Kaw1000
My first areo ace is in the top of my neighbors tree..bout...50 feet up!!
:rofl
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I am soooo going to buy one of those for the summer :)
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On a similar note:
I tripped over a great little r/c helicopter called a BladeCX by eFlight.
I know helicopters are traditionally scary...way expensive, costly to repair and a spanking b**ch to fly, BUT...
This is a well-built, super-stable, fixed-pitch coaxial design. Comes everything complete in the box (which is designed to double as your flight box, too)...transmitter, Li-Po battery, charger, copter...even had all the batteries!...for $189. The coax design means two rotors, two motors, counterrotating. Counterrotating rotors means no tail rotor, and no tail rotor control. Yaw is controlled by differential rotor speed.
This little bird is only about 8oz all-up-weight, about 10" rotor diameter, and is designed to fly indoors! Any weather, day or night, you can have a quick flying fix. Hell, I've learned to take off and land in the palm of my hand! On a dead-calm day, you can fly outside. I've sailed mine right over my house, as well as out a third story window...and back.
Replacement parts are very affordable; new rotor blade = $1, new main frame = $9, new main shaft = $6 (yea..guess how I know:D ).
This is not a toy fan...it's the real deal in miniature, and I love it.
It's very popular, well regarded, and a hit with the modifications crowd. I've started working mine over already with performance improvements, and my new USAF UAV paint scheme will be done soon.
Check out the forums at rcgroups.com This little chopper is way too much fun!
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Now all I have to do is figure a way to rig my Air Hog to explode in mid air.
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I should get one to fly at the Con, buzz the tables. :lol
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Originally posted by Airscrew
I should get one to fly at the Con, buzz the tables. :lol
1st paint it to look like a La5.
2nd wait till Doobs gets good and drunk.
Then just buzz him a few times. He should get a FSO flashback and put him in the fetal position. We will need pics of this.:D
Bronk
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We should stop at a WalMart on the way up there. Georgetown/Temple/Killeen/Waco all have at least one we should be good.
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A friend bought me the Stealth AirHog after I fixed his laptop for him. I've had it for 3 month and still havent taken it out of the box.
If the winds are calm this weekend I'll fly it, I just hope my dawgs don't get hold of it at the park when it runs outa juice.
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Originally posted by Edbert1
We should stop at a WalMart on the way up there. Georgetown/Temple/Killeen/Waco all have at least one we should be good.
Oh yea, and then we can fly them along side the van and buzz traffic and the DPS cars on the way to Dallas, :aok
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Some of the other people at my jobsite are starting to buy them... I can see a dogfight coming soon :)
I went to the Hobby Town to get the BladeCX or whatever... but my wife go me to get the Blade CP since she thought I would get bored with the easy no tail rotor version. The CP is pretty hard to stabilize and I have crashed it a bunch trying to get used to it. It is pretty cool, but I think I would have been better off with the begginer version with contra-rotating rotors.
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ohh man thoughs air hogs are great i had one when they first came out i was like 12 they rullllllllleeeedddd. one of the best non R/C planes iever had. but now on the R/C side these plaines are awsome my very first 1 was a astrohog best plane i have ever flown. the sad part is you'll probably never find one. this is a really fun hobby and i would suggest every 1 to try. these planes are really easy to get frustrated with so find a trianer that really know what he is doing as these can be really expensive.
whats your guys favorite plane to fly???
catfish6
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http://h1071118.hobbyshopnow.com/products/description.asp?prod=EFLH1200
Oh man, that looks like well over 200 bucks worth of fun. Thanks for the tip Goomba! Cats AKA Stupid Cat AKA handsomehunk, prepare to be terrorized! :D
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You should try the Bladerunner II as well... less than $90 and it flies beautifully indoors.
The only downside is the short running times (5-8 minutes per charge)
Daniel
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Streak...go back and get the CX. I almost did the same thing, and the hobbyshop guy strongly suggested working up to it. Said the CP was a whole 'nother deal, and took much more time to get stable and pilot well. The CX will give you a ton of fun pretty quuick, while still being a challenge.
Its like AH..you can start up quick, and see some results first day, but you'll wanna spend time getting better. And if you like to modify stuff, you gotta check out those forums...unbelievable stuff.
SOB...hope you like it! Its been a bunch of desperately needed fun for me, on a low budget. Beware cats, dogs, parakeets and unsuspecting kids everywhere!
For a really good laugh...on a still-air early evening, take 'er out to the driveway for a spin. As a neighbor pulls into the driveway, follow 'em, then hover a few yards (safety never takes a holiday!) away as they get out of the car. Or...hover over the center of your street, and watch the reaction of passersby who first see you staring intently into space, then see what you're staring at. The expression is always priceless!
Cyrano...I've seen the Bladerunner, but never flown it. Actually, I think rcgroups.com has a thread all about the comparison, so I'll have to read up.
Fellas
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Modded airhog AKAK would be proud.
(http://image.rcuniverse.com/forum/upfiles/208518/Ej13175.jpg)
There are some truly creative people out there.
Bronk
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That thing doesn't have any control surfaces... wtf?
Nevermind, I didn't notice the copper wire...
Is there any way to make it explode in mid-air?
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Tie an M-80 to it
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The copper wire is the antenna, Neubob.
No control surfaces: it climbs/dives with engine power alone, and it turns by stopping (slowing down) the inside engine. Clever...
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The problem with balsa wood (as in the above P-38) is that it gets damaged very easily. The base design is so light and tough that the only thing that is going to break it is stepping on it or other similar crushing action. Free fall and collisions with static objects rarely do any damage at all.
I noticed some foam profile airplanes at Hobby Town. They were semi-scale models of anything from jets to biplanes. I think they would provide ideal platforms for Aeroace mods other than the problem of exposing the electronics to impact damage. Perhaps it would be worth the weight to put a foam core around the receiver as it is on the original?
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I know how thouse things feel. I was at the CON thursday and I think it was airscrew that poped me in the head they fly great guys . see every one at the CON on Sat.
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Originally posted by Flatbar
A friend bought me the Stealth AirHog after I fixed his laptop for him. I've had it for 3 month and still havent taken it out of the box.
If the winds are calm this weekend I'll fly it, I just hope my dawgs don't get hold of it at the park when it runs outa juice.
I got one....it has to be very calm or its impossible to fly....make sure you are in a big field.......it needs lots of room unlike the bi planes
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Yea they bounce when they hit soome one in the head HA HA HA...
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Finally got into dogfights with someone at the jobsite today. My Aeroace is a little beat up and isn't performing as well as his. So he gains alt over me and dives into me. We usually hit at nearly head on angles and one or both aircraft stop dead in the air and drop straight down. With his slightly better performance, his AeroAce sometimes recovers and "wins" the dogfight. Mine always hits the ground after a collision. It is quite a bit of fun to fly together like that, even without the dogfighting/collisions.
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Ive got to get me some of thouse things there great .!!!:aok
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Originally posted by streakeagle
Finally got into dogfights with someone at the jobsite today. My Aeroace is a little beat up and isn't performing as well as his. So he gains alt over me and dives into me. We usually hit at nearly head on angles and one or both aircraft stop dead in the air and drop straight down. With his slightly better performance, his AeroAce sometimes recovers and "wins" the dogfight. Mine always hits the ground after a collision. It is quite a bit of fun to fly together like that, even without the dogfighting/collisions.
HOer. :D
Bronk
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Air Hog radio controlled airplane w/ 2nd bonus plane @ Target B&M $17.48 YMMV
This plane is normally $29.99 but was on the clearence endcap. The single plane is still $30, but they have a 2 pack which is the exact same plane in the exact same box, but this one also includes a 2nd airplane that just flies straight w/ no remote. Both are shrinkwrapped together.
The 2 pack was $17.48.
Here is the remote controlled plane
http://www.target.com/gp/detail.html...sin=B000E6226A
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WOOOO hoooo bronks avitard yea:aok :O :noid
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Originally posted by streakeagle
Finally got into dogfights with someone at the jobsite today. My Aeroace is a little beat up and isn't performing as well as his. So he gains alt over me and dives into me. We usually hit at nearly head on angles and one or both aircraft stop dead in the air and drop straight down. With his slightly better performance, his AeroAce sometimes recovers and "wins" the dogfight. Mine always hits the ground after a collision. It is quite a bit of fun to fly together like that, even without the dogfighting/collisions.
Thanks again for the post.........Im having a blast with these little dragon flys..I bought 3 of them...me and 2 freinds fly every night......the bottom wing has to go....Ive tryed all ways to fly um.....ive put weight on the front.added a extender on top wings....but it seems the best set up is to cut of bottom wing,,I left about a half on an inch on the bottom wing,,,,flys fast and still climbs good...also I added a small screw for weight ...seems to be the perfect set up!! very responsive too!!
After trying the stealth bomber.....it only flys about 3 minutes the the battery goes....dont buy one...stay with the bi-plane!!!
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We stopped by the Walmart in Waco on the way up and Aiscrew and I bought the last two they had. Too bad they are on the same channel so dogfighting was out of the question. Ouch went by a WalMart here and got the blue one, also the only one they had. You gotta keep your SA high here at the con to avoid getting vulched by the little bastiges. There's been a few videos taken, hopefully someone will post them.
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I finally decided to go back to Target and get more AeroAces since mine has lost some performance and is losing dofights. I was going to get one of each channel. However Target had marked the two-plane set down to $17.48 and no B channel ones were left (fortunately my first one was a B). So I got an A and C channel. The C will go to my nephew whose birthday is July 1. The A is mine mine mine!
I still can't belive the price versus performance. I am dogfighting others at the jobsite about once every couple of hours... the non-smoker's equivalent to a smoke break :) I got into a tight right-hand sprial and dove into my opponent today. Our first non-head-on collision. We both hit the ground, but I definitely hit him.
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i bought one of these the other day, the most fun ive had without my computer :aok
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after buying 1, i had to get another. :lol
for those who havent gotten one, or not flown in a residential area yet
WARNING!!!
these are child MAGNETS. within 5 minutes of being outside i had a crowd of no less than 15 neighborhood kids begging to "let me try it"
went to a friends house in a completely seperate area of the city, same result, only this was a neighborhood where it's not really safe to leave your car on the street all night with anything of $10 value in it. these "kids" were a tad more pushy about "let me try it" and i finally had to fake the wind stopping flight by crashing it a bunch of times intentionally. :mad:
******* kids. get your own. :furious
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I got all three and me and my friends are having a blast!!Blew a engine on 1....the one I learned on...it went through so much abuse...Im just going to replace it instead of trying to fix it...will use the broke one for parts!
And for this cx chopper....dont forget that for $189 you get the chopper and 1 battery that last 15 minutes...so....I bought 3 extra batterys and 3 extra blades......now im up to $350...and then I crashed it and it needs a $50 part......BEWARE!!!....ERRRRRR
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Never underestimate the power of suggestion.
I had to go buy one too.
:)
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Originally posted by ChickenHawk
Never underestimate the power of suggestion.
I had to go buy one too.
:)
how ya doing flying it???? need some help here!!!:lol
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Mine flew fine in the CON-room. But my house is not large enough, low ceilings/tall furniture. I tried it outside but even a slight breeze makes it lose control, I recall the airvents in the con room gave it trouble too.
HOW to fly them is easy. WHERE do you guys fly them?
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Originally posted by Edbert1
Mine flew fine in the CON-room. But my house is not large enough, low ceilings/tall furniture. I tried it outside but even a slight breeze makes it lose control, I recall the airvents in the con room gave it trouble too.
HOW to fly them is easy. WHERE do you guys fly them?
I fly mine outside in cul ta sac early in morning or right before sunset!
did u cut off the bottom wing?? it flys much better without it.....also add a small screw in bottom front, gives it a little more weight so it does'nt porpose as bad!
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Originally posted by Edbert1
Mine flew fine in the CON-room. But my house is not large enough, low ceilings/tall furniture. I tried it outside but even a slight breeze makes it lose control, I recall the airvents in the con room gave it trouble too.
HOW to fly them is easy. WHERE do you guys fly them?
i can handle it outside in 5mph winds, just neet to keep it low. i only fly it outside, so it is only on "calm" days.
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Originally posted by Kaw1000
I fly mine outside in cul ta sac early in morning or right before sunset!
did u cut off the bottom wing?? it flys much better without it.....also add a small screw in bottom front, gives it a little more weight so it does'nt porpose as bad!
Hitech was helping me with mine at the con. we tried adding some of the weights to the plane and it helped a little.
We kinda wondered why there were bumps all over the wings and body, and I'm thinking of trimming them off, as anybody tried that yet?
Kaw, what size screw did you use and where in the bottom front, close to the nose?
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Best mod so far for me was to clip bottom wing. Clip it just inside where the strut meets it. Then open it up trim the foam inside and move the battery forward. Secure battery, doing this you ad no weight and help eliminate porpoising.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Kaw1000
how ya doing flying it???? need some help here!!!:lol
Actually I find that it fly's much better with a light touch. Full power and full right or left is a sure way to crash. When you push all the way to the right or left, that engine goes full power and lifts the wing too high which in turn lowers the opposite wing and down you go. I'm sure some will fly different but mid throttle and small corrections make mine fly much better.
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Originally posted by Airscrew
Hitech was helping me with mine at the con. we tried adding some of the weights to the plane and it helped a little.
We kinda wondered why there were bumps all over the wings and body, and I'm thinking of trimming them off, as anybody tried that yet?
Kaw, what size screw did you use and where in the bottom front, close to the nose?
right under nose.....the screw was about 1/4 inch...your really need to cut the bottom wing...I left about 1/2 inch on each side...its faster and is easyer to control...with 2 wings it climbs to fast and the smallest wind takes it away!
read this site!!!...........http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2453
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good site, I'll have to explore later. Right after I figure out how to get my plane out of a 50 foot tree :lol
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i just trimmed the nubbies off the top of my upper wing (pain in the but) and took off the bottom wing. first flight, maple tree 1, little plane 0. i got it down though, its really a lot faster. need more room to test though.
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My enemy/co-worker found a mod that is great for dogfighting and improves handling: addiing a thin milar tape streamer about 2 or 3 feet long. We tape it under the leading edge of the tail. It acts like a tail on a kite helping to keep the plane going straight and reduces porpoising without having to modify the plane in any other way. My co-worker hit my streamer and I went down (stopped my plane cold), but his kept flying like nothing happened.
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I pulled the lower wing completely off, easy to put back once I know what kind of glue to use. My port nacelle has been loose since I bought it, if I hit anything hard it pops off the wing. So, what kind of glue should I use that is semi-permanent and wont dissolve the styrofoam (or whatever)?
AAR...the little bastige is MUCH faster without the lower wing due to loss of drag, but it also lost a lot of lift so I have to fly at about 66-75% throttle for level flight as opposed to 50%. I have not put any weights or stickers on it and it flies pretty level, if it starts porpoising it is usually due to poor throttle imputs on my part. Of course with the higher speed and higher wing-loading the turn radius is much larger, so flying indoors at my house is a total no-go (I was able to do about 5 laps of the den last night with both wings on). When I do turn now it wants to do a diving turn much more readilly, so an easy hand on the "rudder" is required. I got the sucker up to about 50 feet straight up and it did not want to come down, so the diving turn DOES come in handy. I flew it over the neighbor's back yard and drove their dog insane, one mistake on my part while over their yard and he'd have chewed it to peices...LOL.
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i'd like to see some pictures of these different bottom wing "mods" i am really hesitant because of the fact of how much faster they get and all... i like the leisure fun of the slow little plane. plus i am still learing to control an RC plane for the first time, plus i dont have unlimited funds to go buy more and more of the buggers, the neighbors and all already bought out target, and they are now selling for $39.99 @ the local walmart, guess demand has raised the price. :O :huh :mad:
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Originally posted by Mustaine
i'd like to see some pictures of these different bottom wing "mods" i am really hesitant because of the fact of how much faster they get and all..
http://www.aeroacemods.com/aam/
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Originally posted by Edbert1
http://www.aeroacemods.com/aam/
been there seen it...
i'm talking about the fully cut off or 1/2 or partial cut off bottom wings.
on that site in the gallery i can find 1 pic of what i think is a clipped wing plane. otherwise nothing helpful
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Originally posted by Mustaine
i'd like to see some pictures of these different bottom wing "mods" i am really hesitant because of the fact of how much faster they get and all... i like the leisure fun of the slow little plane. plus i am still learing to control an RC plane for the first time, plus i dont have unlimited funds to go buy more and more of the buggers, the neighbors and all already bought out target, and they are now selling for $39.99 @ the local walmart, guess demand has raised the price. :O :huh :mad:
Yeah, $39.99 is walmart's standard price for these. I think Target is getting rid of them because I've had a hard time finding them. I got the last one. But when I was at Target last night, I noticed that they now have a F-16 aero-ace for sale with the same engine setup. The control is a little different as it only has one joystick instead of two but the design looks like pretty much the same.
Anyone have one of these new F-16's? I'm curious how they match up to the biplane.
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Originally posted by ChickenHawk
Yeah, $39.99 is walmart's standard price for these. I think Target is getting rid of them because I've had a hard time finding them. I got the last one. But when I was at Target last night, I noticed that they now have a F-16 aero-ace for sale with the same engine setup. The control is a little different as it only has one joystick instead of two but the design looks like pretty much the same.
Anyone have one of these new F-16's? I'm curious how they match up to the biplane.
yeah i got the F16 for $17....
it is FAST. buddy and i were trying to fly them the other day.
when turned on the are flying right away, throttle is always "on" we were flying @ a softball diamond next to a golf course. the plane was above the field lights (what about 100 feet) and it got pulled by the wind enough it went all the way across the field and all the way across the fairway of one of the holes @ the golf course. i'd say in ideal conditions it could maybe circle the edge of the infield of a regular baseball field. it can not turn tighter than that, it's too fast. my buddy loves it, i hate it. i couldnt control it for ****, funny huh? he was alot better and he's never don an RC plane , or flight sim.
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Originally posted by Mustaine
yeah i got the F16 for $17....
it is FAST. buddy and i were trying to fly them the other day.
when turned on the are flying right away, throttle is always "on" we were flying @ a softball diamond next to a golf course. the plane was above the field lights (what about 100 feet) and it got pulled by the wind enough it went all the way across the field and all the way across the fairway of one of the holes @ the golf course. i'd say in ideal conditions it could maybe circle the edge of the infield of a regular baseball field. it can not turn tighter than that, it's too fast.
Thanks for the feedback. Looks like I'll stick with the biplane for now as I'm having trouble finding a big enough area without trees as it is.
Originally posted by Mustaine
my buddy loves it, i hate it. i couldnt control it for ****, funny huh? he was alot better and he's never don an RC plane , or flight sim.
I know what you mean. My ten year old son put me to shame on his first flight. He's never done any RC flying before and he took to it like a pro. It's true that I started out over flying it and I warned him to be gentle with it but it still took me down a few pegs.
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I got one of the little aerohog bi-planes this past weekend.
Stupid thing just turns to the left. I adjusted the rudder but that didn't help much. :P
Also it just climbs steady..no matter how I adjust or feather the throttle.
But it IS fun...and straffing the girl friends cat is a hoot and is sure to get a yelling out the house window.:rofl
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if you do it slowly and carefully, you can pull the bottom wings out of their sockets. theyre just glued it. maybe put em back if you dont like it without.
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cut my wings last night...
went straight in from the front outside of the struts, then at the back of the struts went 45__° to the fuselage.
OMFG does it fly nice now. put a small screw into the nose, no porpising, and it is faster. w00t!
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Originally posted by Mustaine
cut my wings last night...
went straight in from the front outside of the struts, then at the back of the struts went 45__° to the fuselage.
OMFG does it fly nice now. put a small screw into the nose, no porpising, and it is faster. w00t!
Now ya got it!! wanna try somet6hing else...take those wings you cut off and scotch tape um to upper wings,,,,it really glides good!!!
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news Flash....I cut off half of a sparkler and stuck it in the botton rear...lite it and flew it....too funny...cool night effect:rofl
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With the faster plane (sans entire lower wing) it handles light breezes much better.
So what kind of glue should be used on the foam? I am thinking rubber cement but don't want the Bestine to dissolve it.
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The price having dropped to $17.48 per plane, I expanded my AeroAce collection a bit :)
(http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/2694/aeroaces9uj.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
By the way, I am using Elmers Rubber Cement to effect repairs (sometimes engines and tails have a tendency to fall off).
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What is your sub-$20 source?
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Anyone having problems with range? Mine gets about 20 feet away, and dies like it has lost the signal from the transmitter (and yes, this is with a fully charged battery).
Thoughts, suggestions?
thanks
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Originally posted by streakeagle
The price having dropped to $17.48 per plane, I expanded my AeroAce collection a bit :)
(http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/2694/aeroaces9uj.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
By the way, I am using Elmers Rubber Cement to effect repairs (sometimes engines and tails have a tendency to fall off).
Where Where.....I broke 2 of the 3 I bought!!! Btw....I bought these for my aeros....http://www.tjtrc.com/LiPoV2.html
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Target is clearing out old stock, that is where I got the deal on these. I gave my nephew one, so my brother (his father) went out and bought two more so his whole family can fly together (wife included).
I saw the new stock... the AeroAce jet in the advertisement at the airhogs website is in stock at my local target. It looks kind of like an F-35. I would get a jet, but I already have four bi-planes :)
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Hey guys there is a boat now that go'es on land,water and air Im going to get one there made by the same company as the Bi-Planes
Just a UPDATE :aok
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After reading this thread I asked Santa to get me one. This is a fun little plane and is well worth the price.
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I've bought a Silverlit Picooz for 29€: 10 gram IR controlled helicopter! 2 channel controller for main and tail rotor speeds. It's a bit tricky to fly at first (it's autostable but it goes where it wants until you learn to trim it constantly).
It's incredibly fun: this afternoon, I was able to make it cross 2 rooms before landing it into my dad's (empty) plate.
It's sturdy too, mine has already survived numerous spectacular crashes
(http://my-coke.net/i/xrotor_lg.jpg)
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Originally posted by eskimo2
After reading this thread I asked Santa to get me one. This is a fun little plane and is well worth the price.
<--- own 3 and love them... too bad it is windy alot here., GD neighborhood kids ALWAYS asking "can i play with it?"
can't fly at home any more, or anywhere public for that matter. :mad: :furious
a tip NEVER let the neighborhood kids see them