Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Hangtime on June 20, 2006, 06:33:29 PM
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Seems those two troops reported 'kidnapped' were murdered by the 2 Iraqi troops on patrol with them.
Chilling.
I have so many issues with this incident.. from the moment it was reported.. first portrayed as 'kidnapped'? WTF? It was my impression that a soldier captured by enemy forces (as they were assumed to be) would be described as 'MIA. PRESUMED CAPTURED'.
Kidnapped?
Worst fears relized.. the kids were tortured horribly; then dumped.
Now.. it was the Iraq Soldiers on training patrol with these kids?
Gawdamn.
Cripes, this sucks on so many levels...
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Did things like this occur in Vietnam or Somalia?
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You read this where?
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"just in" on CNN/TV. Not up in print anywhere.. only a few sentances on CNN.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
"just in" on CNN/TV. Not up in print anywhere.. only a few sentances on CNN.
Thanks. I went looking on couple of other places I know and didn't see it. Not watching sat TV right now, the reciever is down.
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infuriating if true. i vote that we unfreze The Duke and send him to Iraq. that should sort everything out.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Did things like this occur in Vietnam or Somalia?
Yah. It's not that it happened... it's predictable.. probably has an anticipated percentage number assigned to it like 'friendly fire' and 'transportation fatality'. I don't think there's a catagory called 'kidnapped'. To listen to the military describe this incident as a 'kidnapping'... well; THAT pissed me right the hell off. Since when have soldiers taken by the enemy been described as 'kidnapped'?
But if this report turns out to be true (at this point, unconfirmed) and those kids were tortured and murdered by iraq troops working in collusion with an insurgent group..
oh, how the crap will hit the fan.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Yah. It's not that it happened... it's predictable.. probably has an anticipated percentage number assigned to it like 'friendly fire' and 'transportation fatality'. I don't think there's a catagory called 'kidnapped'. To listen to the military describe this incident as a 'kidnapping'... well; THAT pissed me right the hell off. Since when have soldiers taken by the enemy been described as 'kidnapped'?
But if this report turns out to be true (at this point, unconfirmed) and those kids were tortured and murdered by iraq troops working in collusion with an insurgent group..
oh, how the crap will hit the fan.
Probably as the same watermelon that hit the fan when the Iraqi snipers we trained turned on 4 of our own snipers on a Mission together?
War is Hell Hangtime.
Mac
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kids??
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(http://www.phillyist.com/attachments/philly_nicole/mission-accomplished.jpg)
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Originally posted by john9001
kids??
Yah 'kids'. Matter of perspective.. from mine, anybody of an age to be my son or daughter is a 'kid'.
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Two of our young men have been killed in violation of all of the rules of civilization and humanity.
Give the politics a rest.
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Okay. I thought your post referred to the two who were recovered today. Is THIS (http://www.townhall.com/news/ap/online/gov/cabinet-state-pentagon/D8IC82JO0.html) what you refer to?
They've known for some time that the insurgency has tried, and been successful in some rare instances, to infiltrate the new Iraqi army and police forces.
Yes, it is not unlike the VC infiltrating units of the South Vietnamese army and attacking those units and U.S. units operating with them, or leading them into ambushes.
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Originally posted by Shuckins
Two of our young men have been killed in violation of all of the rules of civilization and humanity.
Give the politics a rest.
He can't, it's an obsession. Ignore it.
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Originally posted by Shuckins
Two of our young men have been killed in violation of all of the rules of civilization and humanity.
Give the politics a rest.
It's the politics that caused their deaths. Over 2,000 so far. When will we wake up? :confused:
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All war is a political act. What remains is to see if the usual folks on the bbs here decide to use this situation to further their egos and political agendas. So far it's running true to form.
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Passing off responsibility for atrocities committed in wartime by the enemy...blaming them on the 'politics' of our Commander-in-Chief is pretty ignorant, I'd have to say.
I wonder if RPM would blame FDR for the slaughter of POW's by their Japanese captors. "If he would only have given them the raw materials they needed, our innocent lads would have never had that happen to them!"
/sigh
Who was it that said, "Evil will have triumphed when it occurs and good men stand idly by and do nothing" ? Something along those lines.
I think it was best said in a movie that's become a favorite of mine over the years, I'm sure someone will know it:
"We do not ask for your poor or your hungry. We do not want your tired and sick. It is your corrupt we claim. It is your evil that will be sought by us. With every breath we shall hunt them down. Each day we will spill their blood til it rains down from the skies. Do not kill do not rape do not steal. These are principles which every man of every faith can embrace. These are not polite suggestions these are codes of behavior and those of you that ignore them will pay the dearest cost. There are varying degrees of evil we urge you lesser forms of filth not to push the bounds and cross over into true corruption, into our domain. But if you do one day you will look behind you and see we three, and on that day you will reap it- and we will send you to whatever god you wish. And shepards we shall be, for thee my lord for thee, power hath descended forth from thy hand, that our feet may swiftly carry out thy command, and we shall flow a river forth to thee, in teeming with souls shall it ever be, in nomine patri, et fili, et spiritus sancti."
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I heard on the news that the two U.S. soldiers were captured, taken to the guy who replaced Zarqawi, and were beheaded by him.
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We killed an awful lot of Iraqi's in '91 and '03. That some would harbor a vicious hatred for us is not hard to understand.
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Originally posted by Shuckins
Two of our young men have been killed in violation of all of the rules of civilization and humanity.
Give the politics a rest.
Yes, don’t you just want to run over to Iraq and help these people? Just be careful when hugging any kids, they may be booby-trapped.
They didn’t have the balls to fight Hussein, but they sure are fighting us aren’t they? Go Shuckins! Run and help.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Okay. I thought your post referred to the two who were recovered today. Is THIS (http://www.townhall.com/news/ap/online/gov/cabinet-state-pentagon/D8IC82JO0.html) what you refer to?
They've known for some time that the insurgency has tried, and been successful in some rare instances, to infiltrate the new Iraqi army and police forces.
Yes, it is not unlike the VC infiltrating units of the South Vietnamese army and attacking those units and U.S. units operating with them, or leading them into ambushes.
Could very well be.
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I'm just trying to make sure we're looking at and talking about the same thing. The guys found today are not the same guys my link refers to, and I've not heard of them (the guys found today) being ambushed by "insurgents" posing as Iraqi soldiers or police.
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War is Hell.... film at 11:00....
Mac
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My point? We lost focus. We broke it and now we gotta fix it. All the politics that drew us into this war was just that. Today we face 2 identical, if not greater threats and we are not pushing for invasion. Cooler heads could have prevailed with equal results and a lower KIA count.
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They chose to draw a line in the sand in Iraq--we either meet them and win, or go home and admit defeat-- call it want you want...but THAT is how our enemy will see it. Another year or so the Iraqi military will stand on its own, and we can start bringing guys home--THAT is what Bush has been saying for quite some time
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Originally posted by rpm
My point? We lost focus. We broke it and now we gotta fix it. All the politics that drew us into this war was just that. Today we face 2 identical, if not greater threats and we are not pushing for invasion. Cooler heads could have prevailed with equal results and a lower KIA count.
It's not your point, it's your opinion. When you can prove it is fact, let us all know. Then it will qualify as a "point". Until then, call it what it is, an opinion.
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on a related note: Arab nations with nuclear weapons makes me very uncomfortable.
What would the consequences be on the environment if we detonated 30-40 medium sized nuclear warheads....in a clean up the neighborhood type mission?
Just curious....
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Seems those two troops reported 'kidnapped' were murdered by the 2 Iraqi troops on patrol with them.
Chilling.
I have so many issues with this incident.. from the moment it was reported.. first portrayed as 'kidnapped'? WTF? It was my impression that a soldier captured by enemy forces (as they were assumed to be) would be described as 'MIA. PRESUMED CAPTURED'.
Kidnapped?
Worst fears relized.. the kids were tortured horribly; then dumped.
Now.. it was the Iraq Soldiers on training patrol with these kids?
Gawdamn.
Cripes, this sucks on so many levels...
Looks like the Psy-ops of terrorists has worked on Hang and co. You *do* know the enemy commonly dresses in Iraqi uniforms and infiltrates, don't you Hang? Or are you one of those that just love bad news from the war in the middle east to justify your dislike for the commander in Chief who was brilliant enough to bring the fight to them, rather than have it here?
More stories of presumed "Iraqi Soldiers":
Some accounts by police said the rebels were dressed in Iraqi military uniforms. (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,136419,00.html)
Insurgents dressed as Iraq police shot and killed six teachers Monday, while violence claimed at least 10 other lives, including three US soldiers (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/12/03/iraq.main/index.html)
You just can't face facts that its predomeniently INSURGENTS that are killing our boys, NOT Iraqi forces, can you? The press tells you its the Iraqi's turning on us, we should get out...the press probably would have been happy if we all hid in our closets after 9/11, hope the bad guys go away. Sorry, won't happen. Those scum terrorists only understand one thing. Violence on violence. It pisses them off that we're "over there". Thats our mission. Bring them out, fight them on their turf, not US soil. God Bless the men in uniform that understand this and go there to fight them.
On April 9, 2004, armed men attacked a seventeen-truck U.S. fuel convoy near Abu Ghraib and captured two U.S. servicemen, Sgt. Elmer C. Krause and Pfc. Keith M. Maupin from the Army Reserve’s 724th Transportation Company, and seven contractors.339 Bodies of four of the contractors were later found, as was the body of Sgt. Krause. One of the contractors, Thomas Hamill, escaped after one month, but the two other contractors and Pfc. Maupin remained missing. On April 16, al-Jazeera broadcast a video from an unnamed armed group that showed Pfc. Maupin sitting on the ground, apparently in good health, surrounded by six masked men. Ten weeks later, on June 28, al-Jazeera aired another video that showed Pfc. Maupin, along with a statement that he had been executed. Al-Jazeera did not broadcast the execution but said the video showed a gunman shooting Pfc. Maupin in the head from behind. U.S. officials said they could not confirm the execution due to the poor quality of the video.340 Pfc. Maupin remains the only missing U.S. soldier in Iraq.
On October 26, 2004, Ansar al-Sunna announced the abduction of eleven Iraqi soldiers south of Baghdad. Two days later, a statement posted on the Internet along with photographs said the group had executed the eleven men. “The ruling of God has been implemented against them by slaughtering one and killing the others by firing squad,” the statement reportedly said.341
On November 20, 2004, U.S. and Iraqi soldiers found the bodies of nine Iraqi soldiers in an industrial area of central Mosul. Each of the victims reportedly had a bullet wound in the head, and four of them were badly burned in manner suggesting they might have first been tortured.342 Eight days later, al-Qaeda in Iraq claimed responsibility for killing seventeen members of Iraq’s security forces in Mosul, although it is not clear if some of these victims were the men found on November 20. In a statement posted on a website, the group reportedly said it had killed seven “apostates” from the armed forces, as well as a Kurdish militiaman. Three members of the Iraqi government’s Emergency Response Units were executed after being “investigated,” the group said.343
On January 1, 2005, a group claiming to be al-Qaeda Group of Jihad in Mesopotamia in al-Ramadi posted a video on the Internet that reportedly showed the execution of five Iraqi soldiers. Entitled “Confessions and Implementations of God’s Judgment on the American Dogs,” the video showed five men in civilian clothes on a deserted city street with their hands tied behind their backs. One of the five men had identified himself as Bashar Latif Jassim, who “confessed” that his assignment was to “prevent the terrorists from entering Iraq.”344 Men with handguns shot them repeatedly in their backs.345
On January 23, 2005, Ansar al-Sunna released a video that showed the execution of an Iraqi soldier. Posted on the Internet, it reportedly showed a man in a chair with an identity card that read, “Defense Ministry, `Abd al-Jabbar `Ali `Abdullah, colonel.” An insurgent in a hood then shot the man. A statement with the video said, “the colonel was taken captive in Mosul, where he had been sent to help U.S. forces seeking to recapture the town from the mujahadin. He was executed by firing squad after confessing to his crimes.”346
On February 2, 2005, insurgents stopped a minibus carrying Iraqi soldiers south of Kirkuk. They reportedly ordered the fourteen soldiers off the bus and then executed twelve of them. The insurgents allowed two wounded men to live apparently as a warning to others. According to the Iraqi military commander in Kirkuk, Maj. Gen. Anwar Muhammad, “they deliberately wounded them and told them: go and tell your village what we did.”347 The assailants identified themselves as members of al-Takfir wal-Hijra (Atonement and Pilgrimage).348
On April 20, 2005, officials discovered the corpses of nineteen Iraqi soldiers in a stadium in the largely Sunni Arab city of Haditha, about 130 miles northwest of Baghdad. Unknown insurgents apparently kidnapped the soldiers while they were on leave from their posts. According to a local health official, “the armed group threatened the people and the medical staff of the hospital not to evacuate the bodies from the stadium,” so Iraqis would be warned not to join the Iraqi army or police.349 Two witnesses said they ran to the stadium after hearing shots and saw the nineteen bodies slumped up against a wall stained with blood.
http://hrw.org/reports/2005/iraq1005/13.htm
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
It's not your point, it's your opinion. When you can prove it is fact, let us all know. Then it will qualify as a "point". Until then, call it what it is, an opinion.
My point, my opinion, same thing. Please keep up with the entendre.
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Military investigators have concluded two California National Guardsmen were shot and killed in June 2004 by Iraqi soldiers on patrol with them, Army officials said Tuesday. The two U.S. soldiers, Spc. Patrick R. McCaffrey Sr., 34, and 1st Lt. Andre D. Tyson, 33, were originally reported to have died in an ambush.
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Originally posted by Shuckins
Two of our young men have been killed in violation of all of the rules of civilization and humanity.
Give the politics a rest.
Since when war is not politic ?
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i just hate that when r guys r captured the terrorist/iraqs will kill and torture them, but when we prison these guys the liberals say we r wrong and that we are killin civilains and useing torture tatics to get info out of prisoners. Im not a violent monster but i believe in letting our guys get the job done by "any" means necessary. I live in nyc i saw on the news that they stoped a plane to attack our subways systems here. Our guys must be doin somethin right, an attack like that will turn this city upside down. And im im very greetful that r guys r workin everyday to keep us safe.These crazy liberals have to understand that they want to kill us, they need to back the media out of there so our guys can fight the war wit out 50 reports question every shot they fire. If civilains die blame the terrorist, these guys are cowards and use the population to hide, stripin bombs to childern to kill americans? These guys deserve no mercy.
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Ease up on the Koolaid. ;)
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No need to worry, everything is going just fine...
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Looks like the Psy-ops of terrorists has worked on Hang and co. You *do* know the enemy commonly dresses in Iraqi uniforms and infiltrates, don't you Hang? Or are you one of those that just love bad news from the war in the middle east to justify your dislike for the commander in Chief who was brilliant enough to bring the fight to them, rather than have it here?
More stories of presumed "Iraqi Soldiers":
Some accounts by police said the rebels were dressed in Iraqi military uniforms. (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,136419,00.html)
Insurgents dressed as Iraq police shot and killed six teachers Monday, while violence claimed at least 10 other lives, including three US soldiers (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/12/03/iraq.main/index.html)
You just can't face facts that its predomeniently INSURGENTS that are killing our boys, NOT Iraqi forces, can you? The press tells you its the Iraqi's turning on us, we should get out...the press probably would have been happy if we all hid in our closets after 9/11, hope the bad guys go away. Sorry, won't happen. Those scum terrorists only understand one thing. Violence on violence. It pisses them off that we're "over there". Thats our mission. Bring them out, fight them on their turf, not US soil. God Bless the men in uniform that understand this and go there to fight them.
My God, look at all that useless text.
You are total piece of work.... know that Rip?
"You just can't face facts that its predomeniently INSURGENTS that are killing our boys, NOT Iraqi forces, can you?"
"Insurgents" ARE Iraqi forces.... Einstein.
Maybe you were trying to talk about the difference between insurgents and the Al qaeda.... but even then it'd still be a huge exaggeration.
It doesn't escape me that you constantly come here equipped with knowing next to nothing, every single time, and rely on snippets of articles... which usually have nothing to do with anything at hand. And you still get it wrong!
You're like that dumb guy in class. He had no idea. He just never learned how to research. And he never learned how to identify and categorize useful information when he was lucky enough to stumble upon it.
And Ripsnort - you don't merely stumble upon it. You land flat on your bellybutton tripping over it, oblivious to it.... while looking off in a different direction... getting up and pocketing the shiny object you were fixated on during the way down.
"You just can't face facts that its predomeniently INSURGENTS that are killing our boys, NOT Iraqi forces, can you? - Ripsnort"
:rofl
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By the way...
It also doesn't escape me that you use the loving term "Our boys" when talking about this.
If you really, really gave a toss about "our boys" you would actually know what exactly they are up against over there.
It's obvious that you don't. And I really don't think you care.
God Bless the men in uniform that understand this and go there to fight them.
You have no idea who "them" are.
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I think this is what Hang was talking about, in print (IHT) (http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/06/20/news/iraq.php)
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Wow, over 2000 soldiers have died correct?
That really is a low number.
Around half a million died during the American Civial War.
I think Millions died during World War II.
How many people died in the first 3 hours of D-Day?
2,000 people compared to recent wars is a very small number. I think we have done a great job of reducing fatalities in war. But no matter how hard we try, I believe there will always be death in war.
(It just really sucks to be one of those 2k men that died)
I am glad Saddam is no longer in power. He is a very bad man and should be punished for the horrible things he had done to his own people.
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Nash the insurgents are both external and ex-Baathist's/radical muslims who are fighting US Soldiers. They are not the established Iraqi Army or police. Since I know that you have a short attention span, I've made bold the highlites from more than one news source below (so you don't attack the news source messenger ;) )
An insurgency is an armed uprising, revolt, or insurrection against an established civil or political authority, such as a constituted government or a military occupation by an invading force. Persons engaging in insurgency are called insurgents, and typically engage in regular or guerrilla combat against the armed forces of the established regime, or conduct sabotage and harassment in the land.
Iraqi insurgency -- the armed campaign being waged by various irregular forces, both Iraqi and external in origin, against the multinational force and the new Iraqi government
first you need a sense of how a growing array of soldiers and security men from Saddam's devastated military, members of his old Baathist regime, rebellious desert tribesmen, fierce nationalists, common thugs and a relatively few itinerant fanatics from around the Muslim world have come together to challenge American power and all it stands for in Iraq. Interviews with guerrilla veterans of the Iraqi war, tribal leaders and Baathists, as well as American, Coalition and Iraqi officials, make it clear this is not one insurgency, but many. What Zarqawi and al-Kurdi have brought to the fight is not numbers but a particular talent for horror, for videotaped beheadings and for delivering suicide bombs.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6885867/site/newsweek/
Below is a list of some of the main insurgent groups.
The Shia Badr Brigade and the Kurdish peshmerga are not included, as these are militia groups that do not have a record of attacking US targets or their Iraqi government allies.
AL-QAEDA IN IRAQ
Al-Qaeda is Iraq's most successful insurgent group, blamed for many of the country's bloodiest bombings and beheadings.
The group's prominence is partly down to a media campaign that exploits the exposure - and the anonymity - offered by internet and television channels.
The group's local commander is said to be the Jordanian militant, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.
Abu Musab al-Zarqawi is the most wanted man in Iraq
The US military regards him as its biggest foe in Iraq, though many analysts question whether he alone is directing all the violence attributed to him.
As commander of a jihadi training camp in Afghanistan in 2001, Zarqawi is said to have regarded himself as a rival to al-Qaeda leader Osama Bin Laden.
He made his debut in Iraq as the alleged head of the Tawhid and Jihad group, claiming credit for the beheading of foreign hostages.
In late 2004, Zarqawi reportedly merged his network with Osama Bin Laden's, renaming it al-Qaeda in Iraq.
Al-Qaeda in Iraq's hallmarks include synchronised bomb attacks and the abduction and murder of foreign hostages.
The bombs have had a range of targets - from US military personnel to Iraq's fledgling security forces and its Shia community - derided as apostates in messages attributed to Zarqawi.
Igniting sectarian conflict is central to al-Qaeda's strategy in Iraq, according to a letter purportedly authored by Zarqawi and released by the US military in early 2004.
Hostages said to have been murdered by the group include the US citizen Nick Berg and the British contractor, Kenneth Bigley.
US and Iraqi government sources say al-Qaeda has recruited foreign fighters for its operations in Iraq.
A September 2005 report released by US think-tank, the Centre for Strategic and International Studies, said foreign volunteers account at most for 10% - some 3,000 fighters - of the insurgency, the remainder being Iraqi Sunni Arabs.
According to the report, most of the foreign insurgents have come from Algeria, Syria, Yemen and Sudan.
Saudis form an influential minority in the foreign contingent because of the money they bring and because of the media coverage their deaths generate, the report says.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4268904.stm
Originally posted by Nash
You're like that dumb guy in class. He had no idea. He just never learned how to research. And he never learned how to identify and categorize useful information when he was lucky enough to stumble upon it.
And Ripsnort - you don't merely stumble upon it. You land flat on your bellybutton tripping over it, oblivious to it.... while looking off in a different direction... getting up and pocketing the shiny object you were fixated on during the way down.
Nash, you're like that kid in class who was most likely skipping school to smoke dope. Barely got by, might have graduated but probably went the GED route along with harder drugs to the point that they control ones life. Guess we all stereotype, eh Nash?
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Gee nash... what special insights do you as a socilaist canadian have about what American boys are facing over there?
upwzxcv... Yes... the terrorists are a lot more brave against U.S. troops than they were against the sadman... for one thing... the sadman was just like em... common interests...for another..
U.S. troops won't torture everyone in the villiage one at a time until they find the "insurgents" and then throw them and their families into the woodchipper feet first.
I kinda doubt that the Iraqis would rather have the sadman back.
lazs
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Yep.. I got my 'reporting' wrong. Was watching CNN last night, they broke into a canned story to report that two of our soldiers reported killed in an ambush were instead killed by their iraqi patrol 'partners'.. a seperate incident from the more recent capture of the kids in the news over the past couple of days.
My apologies.
Regarding the 'numbers'.. During WWII the average number of days for an american soldier exposed to direct fire was 41 per year. In Vietnam that number went to 240 per year. In Iraq it's expected to be higher. And these kids keep going back.
During WWII the troops in the field enjoyed the support of a unified nation with it's shoulder bent to the concept of WINNING. Every citizen was asked to sacrafice.. children and schools raised funds, sponsored the purchase of warplanes, ships, tanks...
Our kids don't get that support.
Our citizens have lost the will to fight.
Our kids in uniform haven't.
I've said it before, I'll say it again. If we as a nation continue to see our days as just another at the office and refuse to accept the moral commitment of Total War against Islamic Jihadi's... then we are not worthy of the sacrafice of the lives of our kids in battle against them.
Bring them home... or send them everything we have. Commit.. or get 'em outta there. Sending them out to cruise as targets or bait is not a warplan.
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bottom line, the bad guys are sneaking into the ranks of the new iraqi army.. how else would you learn good tactics.. there are american gangs who groom members to join the military so when they get out they can share the good warfighting knowledge with their counterparts. its old news. i trained Iraqis in Mosul back in 03-04.. there is a good screening process in place trying to weed out the suspected types before they ever leave the VEO (iraqi recruiting station). keep in mind that the average yearly income for a worker in Mosul before the war made on average 300 dollars.. if you made that much and some terd came up to you and asked you to plant a bomb for 500 dollars would you? how about taking a pot shot at a soldier for 500 dollars.. yep, you would... that is the common tactic they are using to get people to help.. their army doesnt pay all that much.. my basic private was making 100 dollars a month.. officers at the rank of captain was making 300 dollars a month.. imagine a quick 500 dollars to release a patrol route, convoy route and times..... as for the 2 soldiers that were snatched from the checkpoint.. they were not hit by Iraqis that they were with.. these soldiers were in my brigade.. pray for their families.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Bring them home... or send them everything we have. Commit.. or get 'em outta there. Sending them out to cruise as targets or bait is not a warplan.
They are sending them out on patrol with Iraqi security forces training the Iraqi security forces to deal with the insurgency. I'm sure the insurgents can funnel as many recruits into Iraqi as they want just as we could continue to funnel as many troops as we want to fight them, but we must teach the standing government forces how to walk before we can run.
Meanwhile, we are situated right on top of this big piece of intelligence gathering piece of real estate called Iraq. Big brother is watching them. It's pissing the radical muslims off, and that's good. They come to us there, not here on our soil. Kill them all let (insert deity here) sort them out.
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If you read the SOG books about vietnam you will see a few (more than a few) examples of the indiginous troops betraying our troops... sometimes is was just the reward.... other times it was the threat to their families. A person who's family is threatened by monsters could be expected to take his chances with U.S. justice.
lazs
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Originally posted by Nash
By the way...
It also doesn't escape me that you use the loving term "Our boys" when talking about this.
If you really, really gave a toss about "our boys" you would actually know what exactly they are up against over there.
It's obvious that you don't. And I really don't think you care.
You have no idea who "them" are.
Nash, my Nephew serves in the U.S. Army Intelligence division. You want a picture? :rolleyes:
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What a Herculean effort there, Rip, to.... what? Continue to try and say that the insurgents are "NOT Iraqi forces?"
And how do you go about that? By saying that the "established Iraqi Army or police" are not fighting the US.... as if they are going to turn around and fire on their trainers. Jeeze...
So in effect, this:
"You just can't face facts that its predomeniently INSURGENTS that are killing our boys, NOT Iraqi forces, can you?"
Actually means:
"You just can't face facts that its predomeniently an armed Iraqi uprising that are killing our boys, NOT the army and police we are trying to train."
Good one. ;)
If, however, what you were really trying to say that that it's predominantly foreign terorists and NOT the Iraqi insurgents that the US is fighting over there, then you'd still be wrong. That number is more like one in ten.
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Originally posted by Kermit de frog
Wow, over 2000 soldiers have died correct?
That really is a low number.
Around half a million died during the American Civial War.
I think Millions died during World War II.
How many people died in the first 3 hours of D-Day?
2,000 people compared to recent wars is a very small number. I think we have done a great job of reducing fatalities in war. But no matter how hard we try, I believe there will always be death in war.
(It just really sucks to be one of those 2k men that died)
I am glad Saddam is no longer in power. He is a very bad man and should be punished for the horrible things he had done to his own people.
Total KIA's
Civil War: 562130
WW2: 408306
WW1: 58354
Vietnam: 58219
Korean War: 54246
Revolutionary War: 25324
Mexican War: 13283
Iraq War: (it's just over 2500 now ish right?)
Something else to take into account when comparing casualty figures for American Wars--the relative size of the US polulation.
For example, there were a little over 2 million Americans in 1776--3,929,214 on the 1790 census. Our population is 100xs as much as it was during the Revolutionary War. In the War of 1812, the population was just over 7 million (7,239,881 on the 1812 census). For the Civil War, our population was right at 30 million--on tenth what it is now. We were at half of our current population during the second World War, and at 183,285,009 on the 1960 census at the eve of Vietnam.
In other words, while every American life is precious, if you what to know the true imact of war casualties as percentage of population--you need to do the following:
If Iraq 2500 (ish)
Then,
Vietnam=98,9723
WWII=816,712
Civil War=5,6300,000
Revolutionary War=2,532,400
During World War II, more American soldiers died in two weeks on average than in all of the months of operations in Iraq. Despite the tragically higher fatalities rate of World War II, the media of its day kept a respectful distance, and allowed the families of the dead to grieve privately in dignity. There was no complaint that American soldiers were dying "needlessly in a war of aggression" against a Nazi Germany that did not bomb Pearl Harbor.
Using Pentagon statistics cross-checked with independent research, an annualized Iraqi civilian death rate would be 27.51 per 100,000.
While that number sounds high, it's significantly lower than a number of major American cities, including the nation's capital.
It's 45 violent deaths per 100,000 in Washington, D.C
Other American cities with higher violent civilian death rates than Iraq include:
Detroit - 41.8 per 100,000
Baltimore - 37.7 per 100,000
(I'll add that my hometown of St. Louis also is higher)
At what point did so many Americans become such whiney babies? Where did our resolve go? It's SAFER to live in Iraq as a civilian than in the U.S for cripes sake!!!
Threads like this just make me shake my head in disgust at what huge wussies many Americans have become. If soooo many people on this BBS are sooooo concerned w/ the loss of human life, maybe they need to focus on things like the 30,000 people that will commit suicide this year. Or the 100,000 that will die in an accident. (TWICE as many people will die in a work related accident this year than have died in Iraq) Y'all need to step back and get some perspective. We need MORE resolve in Iraq. We need to be MORE aggressive. Not less. This is WAR! Don't care if you are for it or against it, we are IN it. Lets try to not not go down in history as the generation of the biggest bunch of wimps produced by this great country of ours to date.
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Originally posted by Nash
What a Herculean effort there, Rip, to.... what? Continue to try and say that the insurgents are "NOT Iraqi forces?"
And how do you go about that? By saying that the "established Iraqi Army or police" are not fighting the US.... as if they are going to turn around and fire on their trainers. Jeeze...
So in effect, this:
"You just can't face facts that its predomeniently INSURGENTS that are killing our boys, NOT Iraqi forces, can you?"
Actually means:
"You just can't face facts that its predomeniently an armed Iraqi uprising that are killing our boys, NOT the army and police we are trying to train."
Good one. ;)
If, however, what you were really trying to say that that it's predominantly foreign terorists and NOT the Iraqi insurgents that the US is fighting over there, then you'd still be wrong. That number is more like one in ten.
I can't help those with sand in their ears, Nash. Regarding the last sentence in your drivel, got a source?
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
I can't help those with sand in their ears, Nash. Regarding the last sentence in your drivel, got a source?
Sure! There are tons out there.
Here's one. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1576666,00.html)
"The US and the Iraqi government have overstated the number of foreign fighters in Iraq, "feeding the myth" that they are the backbone of the insurgency, an American thinktank says in a new report.
Foreign militants - mainly from Algeria, Syria, Yemen, Sudan, Egypt and Saudi Arabia - account for less than 10% of the estimated 30,000 insurgents, according to the Washington-based Centre for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS)."
Note the distinction between "foreign fighters" and "insurgency," genius.
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It is safer to be a soldier in iraq than it is to be a civilian in several of nash's darling blue cities like washington dc or detroit.
lazs
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Originally posted by Nash
Sure! There are tons out there.
Here's one. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1576666,00.html)
"The US and the Iraqi government have overstated the number of foreign fighters in Iraq, "feeding the myth" that they are the backbone of the insurgency, an American thinktank says in a new report.
Foreign militants - mainly from Algeria, Syria, Yemen, Sudan, Egypt and Saudi Arabia - account for less than 10% of the estimated 30,000 insurgents, according to the Washington-based Centre for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS)."
Note the distinction between "foreign fighters" and "insurgency," genius.
Ah. I see. They stood by the border and counted them I suppose...:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Nash
Note the distinction between "foreign fighters" and "insurgency," genius.
Yes, I noticed Nash. Your point?
The report says the presence of foreign fighters is cause for alarm "particularly because they play so large a role in the most violent bombings and in the efforts to provoke a major and intense civil war". The CSIS disputes reports that Saudis account for most of the foreign insurgents
This might be news to you Nash, but insurgency does not me "freedom fighter" nor does it mean that resistence is strictly from the civilian population.
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Ask CSIS.
Nevertheless, asked and answered.
Now run along and continue to pretend that as long as the US trained Iraqi police force isn't turning around and shooting their trainers in the face, then there wouldn't be any insurgency.
:rofl
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with our overwhelming hardware, training, skills and ppl, I find it strange that we would lose any battle against these sand savages ... and no one should be able to kidnap any US soldier at anytime. The forces should never be placed in a position where that possibility is even possible ..
have the Israelis ever have a soldier kidnapped in the west bank? Think we should folow their lead as they have much more experience in dealing with these animals..
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[
Threads like this just make me shake my head in disgust at what huge wussies many Americans have become. If soooo many people on this BBS are sooooo concerned w/ the loss of human life, maybe they need to focus on things like the 30,000 people that will commit suicide this year. Or the 100,000 that will die in an accident. (TWICE as many people will die in a work related accident this year than have died in Iraq) Y'all need to step back and get some perspective. We need MORE resolve in Iraq. We need to be MORE aggressive. Not less. This is WAR! Don't care if you are for it or against it, we are IN it. Lets try to not not go down in history as the generation of the biggest bunch of wimps produced by this great country of ours to date. [/B]
So, we know what you are against. What are you for? Continued troops on the ground? You can say only 2,500 were killed - but over 15,000 soldiers have been wounded. That plus the massive logistics around places like Camp Bremer make the amount of money that the US government spends in Iraq. We're looking at $6 billion a day (source: http://www2.gsb.columbia.edu/faculty/jstiglitz/cost_of_war_in_iraq.pdf)
This is going to be a trillion dollar war. And nothing is changing.
British Brig. Gen. James Everard, who is in Basra - perhaps 101ABN knows of him - has said - when he took the action of holding British troops back from a firefight in a Basra suburb:
"I look at them and say, `Shall I go and clean it up?' And I think I'm just going to piss them off and drive them away from democracy. Will I have done good for the people of al Majar? Probably not. I will have just radicalized them."
The path the interim government is on looks to be a pro al-queda, pro-Iran regime. The biggest winner in the whole affair is now Iran. They can sabre rattle and make waves about nuclear weapons. British Lt. Col. David Labouchere stated that the Iranians are setting up training camps across the border for Iraqi Shi'ites to learn guerrilla warfare. An Iraqi aide also said to one of Lasseter's comrades that "we are a branch of Iran".
So - when does this end? How do we measure the fight? To the point that "everyone we fight there is one we don't fight here" - even if that weren't ridiculous on its face - it ignores the effect of radicalizing the middle east and creating generations of new fighters who only harbor hatred for the US.
I'm sure everytime the Israelis use a helocopter and a TOW against a car carrying a palestinian leader, they say "well, that's one less we have to fight". And hope for a temporary restructuring of power - but it happens quickly and the mortor attacks start up quickly again.
Hangtime happens to be right, either shore up the troops with a massive influx of men - to the tune of half a million new troops on the ground - or leave and let the Sunnis and ****es rip each other apart. In fact, foster it. Sponsor assassinations. Get them at each others throats, what we need is to cull the population of fighting age men in Iraq.
If a pro al-queda regime sprouts up - bomb it and overthrow it again. And make all the regimes that have benefited from the USA saving them with decades of economic aid start shouldering the burden. This week the Japanese troops, about 400 of them pulled out. Who said they could leave? get the heck back in there. And the Germans, and the Poles. We need a massive group of troops from all over the world. Get the Russians in there. Putin needs US economic aid badly still, and so he should pony up some of those special forces troops hardened against fighting the Chechnians.
If you are going to win against Muslim radicalism, I agree we need to play to win. What is going on now is stupid. The guys who just got beheaded were seperated when their three-Humvee unit was ambushed. What the hell are we doing with a three Humvee convoy anyway? Keeping the peace? Screw that. Tanks, and lots of them. Rolling in groups. All US troops get immunity against civillian casualties, this court martial that is going on is stupid aginst those guys that pulled people out of their homes and shot them. Those women are running messages and using cellphones, and those kids are carrying grenades. If you have to pull a woman or two out into the town square and put her on her knees to tell you where the IED is buried; then do it. THe Sovets had no trouble with this in Afghanistan in the 1980s. But better yet, don't even go there. Simply evacuate the people of Basra, and secure the pipelines leading up from there and start taking the oil. Forget Baghdad, there's nothing of use there. Anyone who digs in at Basra gets a one time chemical bath. Send in bulldozers to pile them up, make Basra and the oil ports into one giant Camp Bremer.
Spend what it takes once to get it done. Now, were just wasting money and going nowhere.
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Originally posted by Dos Equis
Keeping the peace? Screw that. Tanks, and lots of them. Rolling in groups. All US troops get immunity against civillian casualties, this court martial that is going on is stupid aginst those guys that pulled people out of their homes and shot them. Those women are running messages and using cellphones, and those kids are carrying grenades. If you have to pull a woman or two out into the town square and put her on her knees to tell you where the IED is buried; then do it.
You've just mentioned all the things that American and other free world forces have been fighting against the past century.
Not only will you lose any war and especially this one and bankrupt the US both economically and morally if you adopt the tactics above but you will dishonor the legacy of all who fought and died to keep such excesses out of our world.
You are a complete Rule #4!
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Originally posted by Thud
You've just mentioned all the things that American and other free world forces have been fighting against the past century.
Not only will you lose any war and especially this one and bankrupt the US both economically and morally if you adopt the tactics above but you will dishonor the legacy of all who fought and died to keep such excesses out of our world.
You are a complete Rule #4!
We're bankrupting the US now. We should at least get cheap oil from the region to fill our cars up with for a few more generations.
Let Sean Penn go make an Oliver Stone film about war atrocities. I don't want to do the above, just until we clear the population out of the areas of economic interest. Then put fences and checkpoints in. This urban combat in the capital of Iraq is BS. Gains the US nothing. These idiots cant even write a consititution correctly.
Move out to the eastern oil fields, which are mostly in open areas that are easier to secure. Approach an oil field in a car bomb, and a sniper will put a .50 cal round through the windshield before the car even gets close.
All the rest is BS. Let the ****es and Sunnis have at it.
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Im starting to think Dos might actually be on to something here.....
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Originally posted by 101ABN
bottom line, the bad guys are sneaking into the ranks of the new iraqi army.. how else would you learn good tactics.. there are american gangs who groom members to join the military so when they get out they can share the good warfighting knowledge with their counterparts. its old news. i trained Iraqis in Mosul back in 03-04.. there is a good screening process in place trying to weed out the suspected types before they ever leave the VEO (iraqi recruiting station). keep in mind that the average yearly income for a worker in Mosul before the war made on average 300 dollars.. if you made that much and some terd came up to you and asked you to plant a bomb for 500 dollars would you? how about taking a pot shot at a soldier for 500 dollars.. yep, you would... that is the common tactic they are using to get people to help.. their army doesnt pay all that much.. my basic private was making 100 dollars a month.. officers at the rank of captain was making 300 dollars a month.. imagine a quick 500 dollars to release a patrol route, convoy route and times..... as for the 2 soldiers that were snatched from the checkpoint.. they were not hit by Iraqis that they were with.. these soldiers were in my brigade.. pray for their families.
Good old Capitalism at work...i wonder what the screenning process is at this point. Are the insurgents more saavy ad avoiding the screening tactics, or are there lesser, or no, screening tactics whatsoever?
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Originally posted by Dos Equis
We're bankrupting the US now. We should at least get cheap oil from the region to fill our cars up with for a few more generations.
Let Sean Penn go make an Oliver Stone film about war atrocities. I don't want to do the above, just until we clear the population out of the areas of economic interest. Then put fences and checkpoints in. This urban combat in the capital of Iraq is BS. Gains the US nothing. These idiots cant even write a consititution correctly.
Move out to the eastern oil fields, which are mostly in open areas that are easier to secure. Approach an oil field in a car bomb, and a sniper will put a .50 cal round through the windshield before the car even gets close.
All the rest is BS. Let the ****es and Sunnis have at it.
You know, I've been mulling the above statement over for the last couple minutes, and I have only one response...
Dos Equis in '08!!
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Start exterminating these ****ers over there and get it over with. All they've done is caused trouble for thousands of years. They want to die. They live to die.... So I say kill them all & let god sort em out.
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Originally posted by Nash
By the way...
It also doesn't escape me that you use the loving term "Our boys" when talking about this.
If you really, really gave a toss about "our boys" you would actually know what exactly they are up against over there.
It's obvious that you don't. And I really don't think you care.
You have no idea who "them" are.
One of my sons is set return to Iraq in August his last tour was 14 months there. Ripsnort you can call em "Our Boys" all you want sir, and Thank You!:aok
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Originally posted by Shifty
One of my sons is set return to Iraq in August his last tour was 14 months there. Ripsnort you can call em "Our Boys" all you want sir, and Thank You!:aok
Thanks. My Nephew is going over soon, this will be his first tour. I've asked his wife to send me a pic so I'll post a pic of Jake soon.
to your son and give him our thanks. :aok
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Here is my nephew, protecting the Nash's of the world so they can sleep at night without fear of terrorism on their homeland (well, except the homegrown kind)
(http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL767/2726312/8668097/158730412.jpg)
(http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL767/2726312/8668097/158730457.jpg)
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Originally posted by Kermit de frog
Wow, over 2000 soldiers have died correct?
That really is a low number.
As long as it is not you or a loved one, it's OK right frogie?
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A Big to you nephew, Jake. I hope he stays safe and comes home whole. Strong family support is what these young soldiers and their wives/kids need... when he deploys to Iraq, you folks would be well advised to deploy to her side.. and check in often.
Rip.. I'm a bit discomfited by a feeling I get.. that Jake somehow gives your opinion more merit. It does not.. not any more than Cindy Sheehan's Mom's opinion means dick, or the wives of the 9/11 tragedy's opinions are more valid than yours or mine.
Jake's opinion has merit.. has weight.. carries the inertia of conviction and deeds in regards to his tasks because it's him that's doing them, or his opinion of you; because he knows you..
Yer still just a corporate sellout that gleefuly goes 'ka-ching' every time the corporate machine puts it to us with another gas price increase.. while they (and you) enjoy your war stock portfolios, yer young nephew Jake is the guy that's paying the most for your smile and pile. Your sons and Jakes will be the ones that pay the war deficit inflicted on our progeny while you and the resta the corporate war contract shills racked up record profits on the Forever War.
get the drift?
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Originally posted by Hangtime
A Big to you nephew, Jake. I hope he stays safe and comes home whole. Strong family support is what these young soldiers and their wives/kids need... when he deploys to Iraq, you folks would be well advised to deploy to her side.. and check in often.
Rip.. I'm a bit discomfited by a feeling I get.. that Jake somehow gives your opinion more merit. It does not.. not any more than Cindy Sheehan's Mom's opinion means dick, or the wives of the 9/11 tragedy's opinions are more valid than yours or mine.
Jake's opinion has merit.. has weight.. carries the inertia of conviction and deeds in regards to his tasks because it's him that's doing them, or his opinion of you; because he knows you..
Yer still just a corporate sellout that gleefuly goes 'ka-ching' every time the corporate machine puts it to us with another gas price increase.. while they (and you) enjoy your war stock portfolios, yer young nephew Jake is the guy that's paying the most for your smile and pile. Your sons and Jakes will be the ones that pay the war deficit inflicted on our progeny while you and the resta the corporate war contract shills racked up record profits on the Forever War.
get the drift?
Better a corporate sell out than an alcoholic that can't handle holding a family together. (shrugs)
Incidently, what your perceptions are, I cannot control. But I posted that information because this war has a personal meaning to our family. So, I simply pointed out to Nash (who's hid now) that they are indeed "My boys" too. My family has been sending care packages since day 1 to Afghanistan and Iraq. I wonder how much Nash has sent his countrymen? For that matter, when was the last time you put together a box with candies, junk food, magazines for our soldiers, Hang? What have you contributed to our men in uniform besides snide remarks and accusations to those who have contributed something, albeit small contributions that morally support our troops?
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Rip, Hang, Knock it off. Both of you know better than to post in that manner. The attacks neither lend credibility nor maturity to your posts guys.
You can have differing opinions and argue them, lay off of the below the belt hits.
Now both of you go to your room and sit in the corner! Time out for you each for 1 hour.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Rip, Hang, Knock it off. Both of you know better than to post in that manner. The attacks neither lend credibility nor maturity to your posts guys.
You can have differing opinions and argue them, lay off of the below the belt hits.
Now both of you go to your room and sit in the corner! Time out for you each for 1 hour.
He started it. :)
Hey, could you shoot me a pic of your rig again? I lost the original and wanted to send it to Dad...he's in the market for a new truck. :)
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Cool Rip.
My son Thomas is in the 1st CAV as well! He's a tank crewman.
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Originally posted by Shifty
Cool Rip.
My son Thomas is in the 1st CAV as well! He's a tank crewman.
Cool! :aok Abrams?
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Rip wilco. I have the e-mail addy you can edit it out now.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Cool! :aok Abrams?
Yeah Thank God he'll be in one this tour. The first deployment he went as a new private. For whatever reason his troop didn't take their tanks. So he ended up like his older brother who was already in Iraq with the 4th ID doing infantry type missions such as patrols, and being on the QRF, which I think stands for Quick Response Force. I'm an Air Force puke so I'm not real sure if thats the correct nomeclature.
The day before my oldest son returned from Iraq I got a call from Ft Hood it was a Lt with the 4th ID telling me what time I could expect Travis's unit to return to Ft Hood the following day. I had just hung up the phone and was telling my wife to get backed we were driving down to Ft Hood, to be there to welcome travis home and the phone rings again...... This time it's a Lt from the 1st Cav. I knew this wasn't good because Thomas had only been there a couple of moths. He told me that Thomas had been wounded the day before by morter fire. He said he didnt have details, but he didn't think it was life threatening. Well needless to say that put a dampner on the Travis's homecoming.
When Travis got back to Ft Hood the following morning I told him about his brother. He asked me if Thomas was still in Iraq, or had been airlifted to Germany. I told him that he was still in Iraq , he said. "He'll be okay then if they left him in Iraq he's not injured too bad." Three days later I finnally get a call from Thomas in the middle of the night. "Hey Dad" I'm so happy to hear his voice I blurt out how bad were you hit? He responds. "How'd you know I got hit?" I told him because the military does thing like notify next of kin , or havent you heard??
He tells me how he just took a couple of pieces of shrpnel in the left shoulder . He was manning the gun in the top hatch of a humvee when the morter hit right behind them. He said the driver, and an NCO inside were injured worse then him. He said it only took a few minutes to dig out the shrapnel , and he was out of the Hospital in no time.
Being ex- Air Force I asked him a question he'd probably been waiting for since he joined the Army...... I asked "Are you on light duty?" His response..
"This isnt the Air Force Dad, we don't have light duty!":lol
Anyway sorry for rambling on. I'll probably never tire of telling this story.
Thomas was supposed to be out of the Army now. He got caught up in the Stop Loss program. He was supposed to final out process the day after Mothers Day. On Mothers Day he called me and told me he had been extended and would be heading back for another tour in Iraq in late August or early September. I was dissapointed , and thought he would be very dissapointed. He told me that when they first informed him he was being extended, he was upset. He had already started out processing , and was wanting to get settled in as a civilian , and go to college.
He stated it took a couple of days to get his mind adjusted to the fact he was going back. He told me that this time they will have their tanks, and he does love being a tanker, so thats helped. He also stated that his car is paid for so for at least a year he'll sock his money away and be that much better prepared when he does get out. He's hoping to make Sgt while deployed this time, and one other thing he's happy about,,, the NCO thats his Tank Commander is from the same town I live in. So I'm very proud of his attitude, and how he is handling it . If it would have happened to me theres not enough cheese in Holland for the whine this Air force weenie would have put up.;)
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Originally posted by Maverick
Rip, Hang, Knock it off. Both of you know better than to post in that manner. The attacks neither lend credibility nor maturity to your posts guys.
You can have differing opinions and argue them, lay off of the below the belt hits.
Now both of you go to your room and sit in the corner! Time out for you each for 1 hour.
Mav, I stand by my remarks. Looks to me like he trotted out Jake as a snub for Nash.. and that just ain't right. I'm not ever likely to be silent while a PC whitewasher hangs a flag to deflect the truth... and it's a good thing there's a few million more of the same mind, or we'd have Kerry holding the Key to the Corporate Crapper.
His response to my pointing that out speaks volumes.
BTW Rip.. I've never been a alcoholic; and my family is doin just fine because I did[/b] stick around and hold them together.... and what I do every day in support of servicemen.. well; suffice to say it's not done or used to glorify my image or give my opinions some imaginary heft.
And guess what, Rip?? ...yer still a sellout.
Cheers! :)
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Wow, Rip trying to give lessons on counter-insurgency to a Vietnam vet, will wonders ever cease.
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Better a corporate sell out than an alcoholic that can't handle holding a family together. (shrugs)
What does Bush have to do with this?
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Originally posted by Hangtime
BTW Rip.. I've never been a alcoholic; and my family is doin just fine because I did stick around and hold them together.... and what I do every day in support of servicemen.. well; suffice to say it's not done or used to glorify my image or give my opinions some imaginary heft.
And guess what, Rip?? ...yer still a sellout.
Cheers! :) [/B]
Meanwhile, you just lied about your ex-wife asking to buy your 19 year old a car in 2002? Uh huh.
And if you're not drinking when you post, then you should probably start...because your posts certainly sound like a drunk hunting/pecking a keyboard. Get my drift?
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Meanwhile, you just lied about your ex-wife asking to buy your 19 year old a car in 2002? Uh huh.
And if you're not drinking when you post, then you should probably start...because your posts certainly sound like a drunk hunting/pecking a keyboard. Get my drift?
My wife and I got a divorce 2 years before my daughter was born in 1984. We got back together.. never remarried. We were however honest about our relationship.. with each other and those that know us.
Not that it makes a bit of difference in this mud slinging contest. As of this point, you've called me an alcoholic, a bad father and spouse, a liar and a hunt and peck typist.
The last part you got right.. but yah know what.. I typed 'em. Unlike you, I came by my ignorance honestly.
And guess what.. yer still a cut 'n paste sellout, Rip.
:aok
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Well, attacks on a personal level aside. The fact that two of our men in uniform who were basically just kids, were tortured to death according to what I have heard; the reports have been mild to save the families the knowledge of what horrific things were done to them. The reports I heard alluded to some of what was done but didn't come right out & say it.
The "insurgency" is just what it is said to be, a mix of foriegn terrorists following their jihad & Iraqis who do not have a love for the U.S. because of the first & second gulf wars....& some of them may be jihadists too.
I.M.H.O. the Iraqi insurgents are doing what I would do too if a foriegn power invaded my country. Booby traps & the use of improvised munitions against the U.S. military assets & the Iraqi forces that stand side by side with the U.S. forces.
Some of the insurgents are not these Iraqis who have a legit fight with the U.S. forces; they are the torturing, murdering, foriegn jihadists who have snuck in country to get their chance to die for allah & our forces should have a free hand to level whatever & whoever is in the way, innocent or not, this is war.
2,500 dead personel is a drop in the bucket, I feel for the families of the dead, but our losses have been slight & wouldn't even raise an eyebrow to a country who had the intestinal fortitude to fight a protracted war, & I am proud to say, most Americans understand this & are willing to stay the course. These men volunteered for duty in the armed military forces of the United States of America & knew exactly what that meant, the chance of dying in combat.
I salute & praise every dead American serviceman & their families & I hope they will believe me when I say I support them, I support their choice to die for their country with honor, I would have preffered they were killed in a stand-up fight rather than being tortured to death, but dead they are none-the-less. Apparently one of the three saw what was coming & had to be shot dead on the spot, I also individually salute his bravery & his understanding of the situation; he went down with a roar swinging & as an American, that is expected, we don't field cowards as long as we can keep the liberal left wing socialists out of the military.
Any of you who find it just, right or funny that my countrymen are dead are no friends of mine & I would not even stop to say hello to you if we were to meet. In fact I would cough up a welcome to you & leave it dripping off your face. :aok