Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Yeager on June 21, 2006, 11:04:44 AM
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Was searching for some data and came across a interesting site. I share with mongo:
http://icasualties.org/oif/
Many many good men and women are being wounded and killed in Iraq, is this just an opening operation into the great war about to engulf civilization, or is this the war that prevents it?
It is either one or the other.
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Can't it be an equal percentage of both? I have felt the attacks on 9-11 were the begining of WWIII. We should not back down even if it becomes nation vs. nation to root out the ideaology of terrorism & radical islam.
They want a holy war to decide once and for all if the jews & christians have a right to exist, they have it. If that alienates long time allies of the U.S. so be it; anytime one of our allies has needed us we were there & gave whatever it took to help them including our blood.
President Bush spelled it out clearly, "you're either with us or against us."
I agree with the president, there is no middle ground in this fight. I am thankful for the help in Afghanistan by many of our allies; but if they choose to leave & let us stand alone, we can. We have not even begun to draw upon the massive reserves of men, supplies & industrial might of this country - woe unto you that want to destroy us, "they sow the wind & reap the whirlwind"
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Problem is, the presidents rehtoric is not the US policy.
Negotiating with Iran and Korea are prime examples. The ungoverned territory of pakistan is another.
Where's the fleets? The embargos? The Draft? The wage and price controls?
Fact is, the magnitude of the war is perfect for corporate profits.. gas prices have doubled. Corporate Profits and government no-bid contracts are at an all time high. Corruption and greed abounds.. national will is gone; 2500 american kids dead, 8500 wounded and no end in sight.
And every day dawns with our kids getting sent out to play "i'm todays IED target".
We got lotsa political spin coming outta the whitehouse. As for Political will and the might of the nation bent to the task.. that is sorely lacking.
It's another BS Forever 'War'.... this one taylor made to suck the profits for administration cronies.
I say ramp it up to whatever it takes to win.. or get our kids the hell outta there.
NOW.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
I say ramp it up to whatever it takes to win.. or get our kids the hell outta there.
NOW.
This is a rather simplistic concept that really has nothing to do with a low intensity conflict. Unless you have strategy that is yet undiscovered in the last, say 250 years, to make this happen. Please expound and enlighten us on it.
If your idea is to simply pull a USSR solution I have a bit of a problem with that concept and I think most of the rest of the country would as well.
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its low intensity now. when 10,000 americans are gassed in the NY subway system I rather like to think the troops come out and the middle east is vaporized. Its either that or surrender, praise be to allah.
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Originally posted by Brenjen
Can't it be an equal percentage of both? I have felt the attacks on 9-11 were the begining of WWIII. We should not back down even if it becomes nation vs. nation to root out the ideaology of terrorism & radical islam.
They want a holy war to decide once and for all if the jews & christians have a right to exist, they have it. If that alienates long time allies of the U.S. so be it; anytime one of our allies has needed us we were there & gave whatever it took to help them including our blood.
If you make it into a new Crusade, you've already lost. There are millions of Muslims and other non-Christian US citizens. Freedom of religion, remember that?
You're just being baited. This isn't a war about religion, and don't let it become one. It's war about hegenomy. The reason that Iraq and Iran are disenfranchised members of the world community is because they made all the wrong choices. They overthrew the Shah in the late 1970s and preferred to revert to the dark ages. They could have been like India is now. India has 83,000 millionaires living there. They are taking jobs from Microsoft, Dell and Cisco and putting them there. That could have been Iran. They chose religious extremeism, they only have oil to sustain that outlook. Otherwise, they'd be North Korea and have to starve the population. Only the oil economy keeps them in line, Iran wants to westernize badly. All the signs are there.
No, make it about getting rid of the religious zealots. To do that, we need to marginalize all of ours. No more Pat Robertson getting to be on tv saying he talks to God and Jesus told him we should assassinate Chavez in Venezuela. Robertson, Falwell and the religious right are nuts. Rockerfeller Republicans need to take their party back from people like that.
This is about captalism. About free societies where business can move along. These extremeists use religion as a tool to get kids to become suicide bombers for them. I bet they don't even believe it themselves at the top levels. Bin Laden was a playboy with a Bentley before he went extreme. He knew he had to wrap himself in the guise of religous zealtry to get the job done. Unmask him for what he is. A bull**** Muslim version of a televangilist. Trying to keep his people in the dark ages, because he's on a ego trip.
Let's move in and take the oil from them. They say "this is our land, the West has no right to take our oil". Sorry, that's not how we play the game. These regimes forfeit their sovergnity once they embrace terrorism. Now we move in and take what we want and push them to the edge. Europeans did it to the native americans. Clash of cultures, and the more progressive technologically advanced culture wins. So, let's get on with it and get gas prices down.
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stop calling them "kids" they are full grown men and women who have been trained and equipped to fight a war, and thats what they are doing.
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I agree with Dos Equis, now tell me your not nash in shades :cool:
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Given the information freely provided by the oposition it does indeed seem like it is a war of religious concepts and bias. The fact that both sides may not agree with that premise, (well it IS a war after all they don't HAVE to get along or agree by definition) is immaterial. If the side that claims God can convince non participants of their claim then they have a victory in their conflict of words and concepts. Truth is immaterial, victory in the conflict is all that is relevent in that case.
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There's no way win in a 'low intensity' conflict, religious or otherwize.
and THATS material to the discussion.
Again.. ramp it up, win it and leave, or keep sending kids out to die for corporate profits.
If we forced the administration and congress to saddle up and deploy to Iraq to fight along side our young men and women this 'low intensity conflict' would be over in 10 days.
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Originally posted by Yeager
I agree with Dos Equis, now tell me your not nash in shades :cool:
Nope. Original member of the Flying Pigs since '95. Stood up in Eagl's wedding party. I have witnesses.
Athiest (Agnostic actually) who thinks religion is not just the opiate of the masses - it's the real root of all evil, not money. Realist, progressive - socially liberal (who understands how Tories used the word liberal) who thinks the Republicans have been hijacked and the Democrats are too stupid to win. Wonders where all the good democrats like Sam Nunn went.
Hates corporate corruption and thinks a law like SoX actually might work. Usually gets labelled as an extreme liberal when talking social or domestic issues, and usually gets labelled as a far-right wacko or crypto-fascist when talking about foreign policy. In 1780, I would have had a home with the federalists. The presidency should be decided by popular vote. Corporations have replaced states, and the electoral system should be abandoned. We should adopt the German system of courts and abolish juries, leaving all trials to be decided by judges.
Believes that when the president says "there is scientific consensus that global warming exists, the debate is over", maybe somebody should listen to him. Darwinism debate is over as well, anybody who would revisitthe Scopes monkey trial is an abject idiot and should be ignored.
As other Flying Pigs have pointed out, I am the least electable human being in modern history. My platform would piss nearly every single constituency off in some fundamental way. When DoK GonZo tells you you're good at being an *******, you know you've set the bar a bit higher. Irish American parents, so imagine Dennis Leary but even more combative. As somebody pointed out - I went so far to the right that I wrapped around the spectrum. I want government in people's lives.
I doubt I line up with Nash in too many areas. Even Eagl thinks I'm off my rocker, but is enough of a libertarian to at least meet me part way.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
There's no way win in a 'low intensity' conflict, religious or otherwize.
and THATS material to the discussion.
Again.. ramp it up, win it and leave, or keep sending kids out to die for corporate profits.
If we forced the administration and congress to saddle up and deploy to Iraq to fight along side our young men and women this 'low intensity conflict' would be over in 10 days.
Ok lets look at this post here. You say there is no way to win, so how are you going to "ramp it up" and how would that make it any different?
Exactly how are you considering to "ramp it up"? Who or what is the target then? Do you have any particular tactic, or on a larger scale strategic method? Drop the politicians fighting bit, we both know it's a nonsense statement.
As to your position that there is no way to win a low intensity conflict, can you specify why you believe that? To my knowledge simply out lasting the opposition can affect a victory or defeat there could it not? Even if you want to postulate Viet Nam as an example, there was a cessation of the conflict and on terms favorable to the US. The fact that the other side decided to violate the terms of the treaty later on does not change the fact that the conflict had ended any more than Germany reinvading Europe changed the fact that WW1 had ended.
I'm not trying to flame you. I just want you to explain what the hell you mean and how you mean for it to happen.
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Originally posted by Yeager
is this just an opening operation into the great war about to engulf civilization, or is this the war that prevents it?
Too early to tell, we probably wont know for anohter 3-5 years.
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Originally posted by Dos Equis
Well said
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You say there is no way to win, so how are you going to "ramp it up" and how would that make it any different?
He wants to nuke `em.
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Originally posted by Dos Equis
I doubt I line up with Nash in too many areas.
Hmm.... based on what you just said, you'd be surprised.
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Cmon, Hang. I wouldn't think you'd have much trouble explaining your own position. You gonna respond at all?
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Originally posted by Maverick
Ok lets look at this post here. You say there is no way to win, so how are you going to "ramp it up" and how would that make it any different?
No difference at all, IMHO. There is nothing to "win" in Iraq.
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Originally posted by Yeager
Many many good men and women are being wounded and killed in Iraq, is this just an opening operation into the great war about to engulf civilization, or is this the war that prevents it?
It is either one or the other.
It's just another war in a long line of wars. It will pass into history eventually and be replaced by another one. It's the nature of human behaviour. Only the dead are finished with war.
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Wow, Dos Equis, those are two damn well written posts.
I don't agree with everything you say but I'm looking forward to reading about your ideas.
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Originally posted by cpxxx
Only the dead are finished with war.
Is that Homer or Plato?
I agree though, we live in a world dominated by the aggressive use of force. Always have, probably always will. Despite humankind's ability to eveolve past that need, there will always be tyrants/kings/despots who will not relinquish their power via the use of words and/or diplomacy by their opposition.
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My question is, why do we have to ascribe so much damned significance to this war?
Deaths are tragic, yes, but how is this war, as it is presented to us, different from any other war fought in the second half of the 20th century? Just like Korea, just like Vietnam, just like Afghanistan for the Russians, we're just banging our ideological heads against theirs, trying to see which is harder. It won't lead to anything, it won't change anything, it won't resolve anything. All it does, is thin out certain populations. I weep for our servicemen and women. Could not care less about the Iraqis, their government, their plight or their desert. Saddam did not make Iraq or its problems. Just as the case is with every other dictator in history, his people and their problems made him.
Our problem is that we keep playing their game. Bin Laden provokes, and we follow suit with the most predictable course of action possible. We go in, and in the process of trying to stop the madness at its source, throw water on the proverbial gremlin that is islamic fundamentalism.
One of my big hopes is to see the discovery and implementation of a universal wonder-fuel before I die. Cold fusion, practically-derived hydrogen, liquified bovine flatulence, whatever it takes, to forever end our dependance on that ****hole of a region. Once our interest there is done, and our money stops flowing, the Middle East and every AK-toting, Allah-Ahkbaring caveman that dwells there will be forever robbed of the two things he needs most to survive--a reason to complain, and the funding to do it. Total and complete disassociation, not forceful restructuring, is the only way to create any sort of lasting change in that sandy rat-trap.
As for the Bin Ladens of the world, let them quit their rediculous charade and go back to drag racing Ferraris, snorting coke and trying to get lucky with underage body-pierced ecstacy addicts--at least those ambitions have some sort of tangible connection with reality. Anyone with half a brain should have seen through that bearded clam's act when his DNA didn't wind up plastered to the concrete at Battery Park in 2001.
I respect the **** out of our armed forces. I respect the **** out of our soldiers. I don't think that a single one of their lives is worth the whole of the collective cesspit that they've been sent to liberate/conquer/civilize. The fuel, well, since our entire way of life is based on it, that's a different story. If they're fighting and dying for the American way, then it should just be publically acknowledged that the American way is largely based on internal combustion, not bringing Britney Spears, McDonalds and Jesus to the Middle East.
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dos ekk... I think your hate of religions has you not thinking clearly... it is not a war against muslims and getting rid of religious fanatics here (not giving them a voice) will change very little.
Nope... we are not fighting muslims... we are fighting fanatical muslim regiems or those controled by fantatical muslims. Our pat robertsons are not in the least powerful nor do they really control anything except possibly a block of votes that is marginalized by those who vote the oppossite simply because they dislike him and his ilk.
Your politics are simply socialist. They are easy to explain and not at all complex. You are my enemy. You simply want more government in our lives in both social and economic venues. extreme left... extreme right... you are correct...you are so far gone in both that you are just another socialist.
I am an individualist which is what I think our founders really wanted.
The war to me is about fundamentalists controling countries. In that respect they are the root of all evil.
To me.... socialism and communism are fantatical religions also. I see no difference in the threat that any of them pose to my living a free and happy life. Your brand of religion is just as intrusive if not more than any religion history has known.
In this case, Iran and iraq and the whole region... we are fighting the control of a people by a book.. the koran... It is no less improtant than the fight of the control of people in the cold war by the religion of communism.
You worship the state... that makes you very dangerous to me. I believe in human rights that no other human has the right to take away.... I don't believe that they can be "voted" on.... I don't believe in democracy when it comes to human rights.... I believe that all crimes are "hate crimes" and that afirmative action is discrimination and destroys lives... I believe that social welfare crushes the soul and cheats the individual... no... cheats everyone.
you are at least as much my enemy as pat robertson and the muslim regiem of some country. I simply wish that you would wear a uniform and we could get this confict settled in a civil war. Red against the Blue.
I am sure that you consider yourself special and unpredictable and "progressive" but I bet that there is nothing you would vote for that would surprise me and very few things that we would agree on. "Progressive" to me is changing the order in which the stop lights change color.... "democracy" to me is 3 wolves and a sheep all voting on what's for dinner. Words like "democracy" and "progressive" and "governement regulation" all scare the crap out of me.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
Words like "democracy" and "progressive" and "governement regulation" all scare the crap out of me.
You must have had quite a bit of crap in you to begin with, otherwise, you'd be empty by now.
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This has all the possibilities of a strong debate between Lazs and the new kid on the block, Dos Equis.
Originally posted by Edbert1
Is that Homer or Plato?
Plato as I recall, but it is apt. The more you know history the more you realise that war is as much a part of the human condition as anything else. Though many peace activists and idealists seem to think war between states and idealogies is something that can be eventually be put away as if it was some kind of aberrant activity. In truth it is no more than an expanded tribal or local conflict over land, water or oil or even a schoolyard brawl. No soldier can join the military under the illusion that he or she will never have to kill or be killed. It's part of the contract.
To misquote someone else, Lee? 'It is well that war is so terrible — lest we should grow too fond of it.'
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Can't it be an equal percentage of both? I have felt the attacks on 9-11 were the begining of WWIII. We should not back down even if it becomes nation vs. nation to root out the ideaology of terrorism & radical islam.
If you have ever studied history, you would know the begining of WW3 happened way before 9-11. September 11th was just the pearl harbor for the US.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
If you have ever studied history, you would know the begining of WW3 happened way before 9-11. September 11th was just the pearl harbor for the US.
You've got condescension down pat. :aok
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Condescension Rice?
:confused:
:rolleyes:
:D
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I'm just trying to show that Sept. 11th wasn't the start, nor the end of radical islam. It's the current limp wristedness on the part of the US and Coalition that will allow stuff like this to happen.
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Condoleeza, roughly translated, means "Mushroom Cloud" in sanskrit.
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cpxx.... I agree that war...or at least conflict are an integral part of human nature. I define war as going all the way down to a barroom brawl tho.
neubob... You are correct... I am full of crap. It is all relative tho.
lazs
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Historically, large populations & scarce resources are the trigger for war. "Where goods do not cross frontiers, armies will." -Bastiat, 19th century
In the 1960s New Guinea had a very high state of between-group violence. Colonial powers imposed peace, and ensured it by loading them up with goods & supplies. 1 generation later they were using computers, flying planes, & established small businesses. Between-group violence hit an all time low.
Same thing with the Yanomamo. Missionaries, and then the Venezuelan gov, gave food & tools for agriculture. Even without outside intervention they setup labor divisions across villages. Specific crafts could be made in all villages, but weren't so they purposely could create interdependant trade. This caused internal warfare to drop off considerably.
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Originally posted by Yeager
Was searching for some data and came across a interesting site. I share with mongo:
http://icasualties.org/oif/
Many many good men and women are being wounded and killed in Iraq, is this just an opening operation into the great war about to engulf civilization, or is this the war that prevents it?
It is either one or the other. [/B]
Saddam's nuclear program would have started again as soon as he got a chance.Saddam was a genocidal dictator who had snuffed out human freedom in Iraq and has tortured and executed hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women and. Personally, I think this reason alone is the only reason I need to support it. I support a war against people like this any time, for any reason.
Saddam won't even keep his tyranny at home, but was a threat to all his neighbors, including:
(A) half the world's oil supply, and:
(B) the democracy of Israel.
The US needs to change the Middle East, and Iraq is a good place to start. It's a perfectly good reason to invade IMO.
The US needed to take the war home to the Middle East instead of them coming here, killing civilians in the US via trains, planes, shopping malls, etc. The Islamic extremists are now forced to take on heavily-armed US soldiers in their own countries. If there has to be a war, this is where the war belongs, not in America. Islamic extremists are dying in huge numbers, while achieving nothing so far at least.
Sleep safe tonight, there are brave men fighting over there who know this is a necessary war for the safety of the USA and its national interests.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Islamic extremists are dying in huge numbers, while achieving nothing so far at least.
They're doing plenty. By dying, they spawning more of their own ilk.
Bin Laden played us like a harmonica. He didn't attack New York to 'Break America's back', he attacked it because he knew full well that our response would polarize the world into two camps. He knew that it would start this bull**** holy war of West verses Islam, and in doing so, would bring untold attention his way and untold negative press our way.
Once again, Bin Laden is NOT an Islamic fundamentalist. His employees sure are, because they're willing to die for him, but, thus far at least, he hasn't given his life for the cause. He's nothing more than a socio-pathic attention potato who doesn't care who dies in the process of his rise to world fame, his people or those of the enemy, it's all the same to him.
Call me a racist if you want, but those dirtballs we're trying to civilize aren't worth a single American life, and if it's our goal to stop funamentalism, we have to stop feeding the flames. Stop giving them untold billions in oil money, stop turning them into martyrs, stop giving them a reason to chant their idiotic caveman chants as they slice the head off another hostage.
Just like you stop paying attention to a kid who's screaming and yelling for you to buy him yet another toy, we have to back away from that catastrophe, now and forever. Once their ideological temper tantrums are all used up, then, maybe there can be talks of change. As it stands, they are not ready, nor particularly receptive to what we're selling.
And frankly, if their economies dry up, if they sink deeper into poverty, if their infant mortality rates shoot throughthe roof, if disease runs rampant, so be it. It's all happening in Africa as we speak, and yet, amazingly, we're not plagued by Somolian terrorist attacks on our homeland. The difference is that we're not funding their entire civilization, as we are with Islam. Religion is just an excuse to rally the troops, and I'm sick of hearing about how we're making the world safer. Personally, I'd rather be out drinking beers and acting stupid with our servicemen than watching them risking their lives for that pit of primordial ooze.
If you value their lives so much, value them enough to let them live to be old. And yes, a big <> to them all.
Jesus Christ, I'm starting to sound like a ****ing Democrat...
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Originally posted by Dos Equis
This isn't a war about religion
On ours it isn't. On their's it is.
hap
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Originally posted by Neubob
They're doing plenty. By dying, they spawning more of their own ilk....
The DoD need spawn campers!!!!:O :O :furious :furious :rofl :rofl :cool: :D
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Originally posted by Neubob
They're doing plenty. By dying, they spawning more of their own ilk.
Bin Laden played us like a harmonica. He didn't attack New York to 'Break America's back', he attacked it because he knew full well that our response would polarize the world into two camps. He knew that it would start this bull**** holy war of West verses Islam, and in doing so, would bring untold attention his way and untold negative press our way.
Once again, Bin Laden is NOT an Islamic fundamentalist. His employees sure are, because they're willing to die for him, but, thus far at least, he hasn't given his life for the cause. He's nothing more than a socio-pathic attention potato who doesn't care who dies in the process of his rise to world fame, his people or those of the enemy, it's all the same to him.
Call me a racist if you want, but those dirtballs we're trying to civilize aren't worth a single American life, and if it's our goal to stop funamentalism, we have to stop feeding the flames. Stop giving them untold billions in oil money, stop turning them into martyrs, stop giving them a reason to chant their idiotic caveman chants as they slice the head off another hostage.
Just like you stop paying attention to a kid who's screaming and yelling for you to buy him yet another toy, we have to back away from that catastrophe, now and forever. Once their ideological temper tantrums are all used up, then, maybe there can be talks of change. As it stands, they are not ready, nor particularly receptive to what we're selling.
And frankly, if their economies dry up, if they sink deeper into poverty, if their infant mortality rates shoot throughthe roof, if disease runs rampant, so be it. It's all happening in Africa as we speak, and yet, amazingly, we're not plagued by Somolian terrorist attacks on our homeland. The difference is that we're not funding their entire civilization, as we are with Islam. Religion is just an excuse to rally the troops, and I'm sick of hearing about how we're making the world safer. Personally, I'd rather be out drinking beers and acting stupid with our servicemen than watching them risking their lives for that pit of primordial ooze.
If you value their lives so much, value them enough to let them live to be old. And yes, a big <> to them all.
Jesus Christ, I'm starting to sound like a ****ing Democrat...
In short your solution is to ignore them to victory. In addition ignore the oil they sit on. Yeah right that will work. :rolleyes:
Assuming you have even a slight infinitesmal percentage of being correct, what is to stop them from just going to Europe and America and blowing stuff up to regain the attention you are denying them by ignoring them to death?
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Originally posted by Maverick
In short your solution is to ignore them to victory. In addition ignore the oil they sit on. Yeah right that will work. :rolleyes:
Assuming you have even a slight infinitesmal percentage of being correct, what is to stop them from just going to Europe and America and blowing stuff up to regain the attention you are denying them by ignoring them to death?
No, my solution isn't to simply ignore them, it's to leave them for dead, on the side of the road.
How much have we invested in the war? Take that sum and use it to discover oil elsewhere. Build a pipeline across to Siberia, make a deal with the Russians, drill in the middle of the ocean, drill in antarctica, grow corn and produce more ethanol, invest in new technologies, do ANYTHING but send it to the middle east. No more Saudis, no more Kuwaitis, no more Iraqis. We'll never impose out ideology on them, and it's foolish to even pretend we're trying to do so. They don't want it, and we can't afford it.
No more investement, not monetary, not social, not military. Not a penny of aid. Let them stone each other to death for the next hundred years, if that's what they want.
Our tax dollars should be going into developing and perfecting THIS society, not bringing theirs, any of theirs, out of the dark ages.
And as for coming back and bombing us here, well, we're damned if we do and we're damned if we don't. I'm all for air strike and assassinations, if the intel's good and if we're not doing it under the guise of nation-building. Ultimately, it's less involvement, not more, that'll end their ambitions. Right now, we're only fueling their resolve.
Quit sustaining them. Let them die their own death.
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So you intend to ignore them to death. If it were simply down to only 2 sides and you could guarantee that the offensive nation could not gain any trade at all, it may work if they were also dependent for any and all necessities of life. Unfortunately I have no doubt you'd see something that has happened already. Oil for food, and the scandal of other nations lining their pockets violating the agreement.
It is not a sterile environment and you cannot control the situation to make your solution viable.
Waiting for the oposition to get here just gets you another WTC, with no one to hold directly accountable.
In short, it would be nice if your idea could work but it cannot and is far from realistic.
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Look dude, my point is this, and I came to it only after spending a very long time supporting the war effort, supporting the cause, supporting the active struggle against this plague on humanity:
We're playing into their hand when we go to fight. Bin Laden is sitting somewhere, right now, scratching his bearded scankiness, and smiling at how things are going. Of this I am sure. Therefore, the only logical solution would be to do the opposite of what we have been doing. Instead of trying to remake them into something we hold dear, we need to let them go. It may take a year, a decade, a number of decades, but it is we who are empowering them. It is not Allah, or Bin Laden, or images of the deposed Saddam. We created the modern middle east, with our money, with our weapons, even with our concern for their own plight.
Those who manipulate the masses understand this game, and they continue to play us every passing day. And it pains me, to no end, to think of what could have been done with those Billions we've spent on the war. How many of those service men could have been granted college educations, how many engineers we could have created, and yes, how many thus undiscovered oil fields and technologies we could have tapped.
It's gotten to the point where every time I fill up my gas-guzzling truck, I think that I'm feeding those apes, ensuring their future, putting our own youth, who went their because it was their job, at risk.
Yes, the stuff I said is unrealistic. There was no winning after 9/11 because either reaction would have been villified, somehow, somewhere, by somebody. Personally, I like Dos Equis's idea about taking over their oil fields and letting their cities crumble into anarchy, but this would require, again, an investment of time, money and human life, and I'm getting sick and tired of hearing about 'our boys' being hurt and killed by that bearded scum.
You know, I hear this time and time again, and it's really starting to hit home... I was watching an interview with a young soldier in Iraq who spoke of the commonness of the 'uncommon valor'. He said that the opposite of fear is not courage, but love. Those guys are out there, fighting not for the Iraqis, but for each other, for their LIVES. When they storm a building, it's not in the name of GWB or the stars and stripes, or gas prices, it's so that the human vermin they kill today won't live till tomorrow to kill one of them. They're fighting for their lives, each and every day, they're scared, they're frustrated and they're pissed. There's just too much work to be done here to be losing the cream of our youth over there, to say nothing of the money we're wasting on a society that could only benefit the world by ceasing to exist.
Yes, it's unrealistic, but, at the same time, it was also pretty awful to act as predictably as we did. They hit us, we hit them, all the while, we're still paying out the bellybutton for their damned oil, and that money, by one means or another, IS ending up in the pocket of the enemy.
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To me, this War on Terrorism started long before i was alive. Im 19 years old and have seen terrorism since i was little. Wheather it was bombings of US Embassy's in Africa, or Suicide attacks in Isreal. It has something that i have seen on television since i was little. Let us not forget what happened in Somalia in 1993 "Blackhawk Down". It was proven that Al-Qeada was behind that day in American history. Its rather sick that we as Americans didnt open our eyes until thousands of Americans died in one day "Sept 11th". Something else that sickens me is how fast people have seem to have forgoten about Sept 11th. Those months after 9/11, EVERYONE called themselves AMERICANS. There were no Republicans, Democrates, Whites, Blacks, Christian, Jews. We were AMERICANS. And now, it seems as if we have gone back to pre 9/11 times. Wheather we should have attacked Iraq or not is now irrelavent. We are there, and we have stopped many terrorist attacks on our homeland. I cant say this about a lot of people my age. But if there ever was a draft, id be there ready to fight. Think of the millions of Americans who have died so we can live with Freedom. We cant just sit here and let Terrorist and rogue nations attack us. We need to stand up and fight like we have since 1776. We are Americans and we need to defend our freedom. Personally, id be more then willing to give my life so that my children in the future can live in peace and have the freedoms i do today. Dont get me wrong, its not that i WANT to die, but if it came down to it being either me or my friend, id want it to be me.
God bless the US and our President!!
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Jordon
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Originally posted by EagleEyes
Dont get me wrong, its not that i WANT to die, but if it came down to it being either me or my friend, id want it to be me.
God bless the US and our President!!
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Jordon
Your gallant sacrifice is exactly what they want, and, frankly, it is a price I do not want to pay, nor do your parents, or your friends.
Don't get ME wrong, when all this happened, five years ago, I was just about your age, and I shared your enthusiasm wholeheartedly. The moment you pick up your rifle and face them in the field of battle, they've already won.
This is a battle of intellect, not muzzle-velocity. We need to rob them of their ideological fuel, because for every one we kill, we only help to give rise to a generation of hell-bent enemies.
Victory, if it comes, will be slow and quiet, and nobody wil notice.
Failure, on the other hand, will be heralded by the sounds of our bombs and shells dropping into their villages and cities. This war will never end, until we change the rules of engagement.
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We're playing into their hand when we go to fight. Bin Laden is sitting somewhere, right now, scratching his bearded scankiness, and smiling at how things are going. Of this I am sure. Therefore, the only logical solution would be to do the opposite of what we have been doing. Instead of trying to remake them into something we hold dear, we need to let them go. It may take a year, a decade, a number of decades, but it is we who are empowering them. It is not Allah, or Bin Laden, or images of the deposed Saddam. We created the modern middle east, with our money, with our weapons, even with our concern for their own plight.
That's all true. But we can't ignore them because they've got so much oil. About 30% of world oil production comes from the ME. About 40% of world oil exports. As a percentage, it's growing, whilst Europe and North America's oil production is declining.
They've got 62% of the world oil reserves.
Barring some really major technological breakthrough, the west can't ignore the ME.
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Originally posted by Dos Equis
I(...) The reason that Iraq and Iran are disenfranchised members of the world community is because they made all the wrong choices. They overthrew the Shah in the late 1970s and preferred to revert to the dark ages. They could have been like India is now. India has 83,000 millionaires living there. They are taking jobs from Microsoft, Dell and Cisco and putting them there. That could have been Iran. (...)
Dont mix the arab Iraq with the non-arab Iran. They are not only from different race but the history of their nations alos differ extremely. Iran exists for 2500 years while Iraq was created as an artficial building from the dead corpse of the Osman Empire after WW1. Thats one of the reasons of today problems in iraq because by creating this thing three different groupes were forced to live as one nation - shi ite arabs, sunnite arabs and kurds.
But back to Iran and the overthrow of the Shah.
After WW1 - when Irans neutrality was ignored by the Allies and Axis Forces - the Kadjar dynasty was overthown by the Pahlevi dynasty. The Shah Reza Khan wanted to modernize Iran. He was strong and charismatic like the great Ataturk of Turkey.
In WW2 Iran refused to side with the Allies and also refused to declare War against the German Reich.
So agin the neutrality of Iran was ignored and the country was occupied by soviet and british forces. The Shah was deposed, his son was installed and Iran joined the allies and declared war against Germany.
Then after WW1 a new nation became the friend of the Iranians: The USA. They helped us to destroy the kurdish rebel republic on iranian territory and in this time the USA and the ideas from that country were very attractive for iranians.
The iranians wanted to become a democracy and this dream seemed to become true, when in the 50ties the prime minister of Iran, Dr. Mossadegh, deposed the Shah in an unbloody revolution.
But then the US- and british secret service started Operation Ajax, deposed Mossadegh and re-installed the Shah.
The Shah feared another revolution and so - with the help of the CIA - his secret police, the SAVAK became a Gestapo-like terror instrument.
You wrote "They overthrew the Shah in the late 1970s and preferred to revert to the dark ages."
No - Mr. They were desperate because it was a time of terror. Year by year tenthousands of iranians were killed or tortured by the SAVAK. The people wanted this terror to end. They didnt wanted the dark ages.
The got them, because in their desperation to kick out the terrorregime of the Shah and all what he symbolized they thought that a religious leader like Khomeine would bring a better Iran.
That was wrong. But to say "They decided to go back to the dark ages" is quite unfair, when you ignore the real reasons for the bloody revolution in Iran.