Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Dowding on October 31, 2000, 06:31:00 AM
-
What do people think about such a development?
The British people are going to have to decide in the next ten years (maximum) whether or not we want to join the Euro and give up the pound. After this, closer political ties with the continent are pretty inevitable, so the question is do we feel European enough to join a European 'Federation'?
I personally believe there will have to be some large changes to the way the EU works if I am to agree with closer political and economic ties.
1) Restrict membership to the most wealthiest 'core' of European nations: France, Germany, Italy, UK, Holland et al.
2) Halt the extension of the EU in the East to nations which have weak economies and poor human rights records.
I feel that the extension of full membership to many countries is premature - help them to establish themselves, however, but how can Romania or Estonia be on an economic par with the UK or Germany?
I am essentially a Europhile, but I have grave misgivings over some of the decisions the EU has taken recently. Many EU institutions are frankly undemocratic. But I believe that if we want to change the way Europe works, we have to be in it; after all we are only a small island (despite having the 4th largest economy in the world).
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 10-31-2000).]
-
Just another step in the direction of a "New World Order".
Don't worry about it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Eagler
-
ok so where is the place for Poland in your opinion? in or out EU?
-
And Spain? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (not that I care a toejam, the damned € experiment is making AH more expensive each month that passes)
-
Ram,
same without the Euro. But USA cant raise the gab for long time, too big discrepance in their household. Wait and be patient (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
A federal United States of Europe YES
A centralistic United States of Europe NO!!!
Lem
-
I'm not an economist, and won't pretend to be an expert for a single second. But it makes sense for countries with similar standards of living to form the core of the EU. As for the Euro - I'll tell you now that no-one in Britain will accept the Euro if it involves 'weaker' currencies. Poland (and the other former Eastern Bloc countries) would have to prove to the rest of Europe that its inclusion would benefit the union.
As for Spain - I said 'et al' - I couldn't be arsed to list all the countries that fit into the category I was describing.
Eagler, I would rather have the power concentrated in a democratically elected body than huge, democratically unaccountable multi-national companies.
BTW I saw a program about 'The Patriots' who live in some non-tax paying commune in the States. They constantly banged on about the 'New World Order' and how UN troops would someday come to their community and try to take it apart. They said they were prepared (i.e. armed to the teeth). They came across as decent people (non-rascist unlike some far-right anti-federal groups) but seemed very, very paranoid to me. Besides, as we have all been reminded on this BB, isn't the UN run by the US?
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 10-31-2000).]
-
Dowding I guess you havent been in Estonia in a while ?
I've been there 20-30 times in last 6-8 years and every time I've seen new buildings, shops etc. You could say They're running after us and maybe some day they'll even pass (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
btw:
Oldest bar I've ever been in was "Eesli tall" (Donkey's stable) in Tallinn; Built for a cattle in late 1700 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Tallinn is an old "Hansa town" and it's really beautifull place.
-
I hope in a future USE, every population will be in correct place,
Germans as soldiers,
Frenchs as dyplomatics,
English as politics,
Spanish as economics,
and...
Italians as lovers !!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
-
Spanish as economics???? you Kidding???? FIESTA ALL THE TIME!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Pepino.
[This message has been edited by arhurb (edited 10-31-2000).]
-
Originally posted by Dowding:
Poland (and the other former Eastern Bloc countries) would have to prove to the rest of Europe that its inclusion would benefit the union.
Benefit the union? What happend to your strong conviction that the "blessed" countries should help those not "blessed". Or is it that only the US has those obligations?
Obviously it does not bother you that you Brits screwed Poland in 1939 and then sold it into Soviet slavery in 1945.
mietla
-
Brits probably will be smart and get rid of the EU...
At least I would do so, it sounds like a bad plan from the begining.
I'd like more of independent brits as well as of independent Finland than as some semi-independent state.
These USA wannabe byrocrats sucks (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif)
They don't realise that Europe isn't built like USA.
-
Dowding,
In my judgement, UK going with the EU would be disasterous. Dont get mixed up with those fools!
Yeager (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
As a British Citizen, I have no wish to join the Soviet Socialist State of Europe.
-
The way I see it Yeager, it's either closer ties with the US or with Europe - I guess it will be up to the Great British Electorate to decide... I'm not going to tell you what I think (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif).
BTW - the UK is already in the EU, we just still have our own independent currency, rather than the rather weak Euro.
Benefit the union? What happend to your strong conviction that the "blessed" countries should help those not "blessed". Or is it that only the US has those obligations?
Yes, and the EU already helps the Eastern Bloc countries with loans etc. We've helped to start the development of a modern infrastructure. I'm not saying Poland et al should NEVER be allowed to join the EU or Euro - the time has to be right. The question is do we devalue the Euro to support a weaker currency? I don't see who would really benefit from that.
I had alot respect for you Mietla until your next comment:
Obviously it does not bother you that you Brits screwed Poland in 1939 and then sold it into Soviet slavery in 1945.
My country, my relatives for god's sake, went to war against Germany when they invaded Poland. They could have appeased Hitler and sued for peace at any stage. But we did not. We gave a base of operations to Polish flyers to strike back at Hitler. I find your comment breath-takingly ignorant and insulting.
What were we supposed to do about the USSR and Poland? Declare war? Launch nuclear strikes to free the Eastern Bloc countries? My friend, that latter idea was actually considered.
Of course, all the world's problems are due to Britain - we are at fault for everything, we created Hitler, we appeased Hitler (let's just forget about the part of history that concerns us FIGHTING Hitler).
Hindsight is such a great f***ing tool.
BTW Mietla - how is the slavery of Poland 'my' fault. Quit with the 'you Brits' crap.
qts - "Soviet Socialist States of Europe"? Oh Pleeeze. You the speech writer for William Hague per chance? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 10-31-2000).]
-
Originally posted by Naso:
I hope in a future USE, every population will be in correct place,
Germans as soldiers,
Frenchs as dyplomatics,
English as politics,
Spanish as economics,
and...
Italians as lovers !!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
EVERYONE GATHER UP THE SHEEP AND HIDE THEM FROM THE NEW WORLD ORDER!!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Mav
-
Germans as soldiers! LMAO (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
ZERO outta TWO aint bad LOL
Ya VOlt!
YeAgEr (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-
Great thread Dowding!
I am absolutely rolling on the floor laughing. There's some great irony in this one.
BTW, Naso...
The joke was:
Heaven is where the British are the Police, the French are the Cooks, the Germans are the Mechanics, the Swiss are the Bankers and the Italians are the Lovers.
Hell is where the British are the Cooks, The French are the Mechanics, the Germans are the Police, the Swiss are the Lovers and the Italians are the Bankers.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-
Our commissioners are unelected, there is massive corruption, criticism of the EU is blasphemy...
Looks pretty much the same as the old Soviet Union to me.
Tell me, Dowding, are you in business? I run my own.
-
Staga :
I have been to Estonia and it is one of the strangest places I've been to (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
And what is with the genetics of the place?
The women have the most fantastic legs I have ever seen in a country, are slim and have the face of a blind cobblars thumb (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Something weired there...
Qts
Our commissioners are unelected, there is massive corruption, criticism of the EU is blasphemy...
And that differs from New Labour or Old Tory Quangos exactly how? Or come to think of it, certain aspects of the Royal Family.
Anyone who enters politics is no longer motivated with the 'leige Obliege' but usually greed/power/etc. Not the recipie for an honest chap..
-
Heheh Toad:
So, if you run into a furball with 10 guys, yer alone, and you shoot down 8 before you run outta fuel and get shot down; the ten puilots are better than you? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
At least initially, it must be said that the Wehrmacht was far superior to the allies - take the invasion of France for example. Outgunned, outarmoured, outnumbered, and they still spanked the Brits and French.
I see the Danes aren't in. I suggest adding us as Beer Drinkers.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
------------------
StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
-
ok the facts was:
"Germany" attacked Poland at 1st september 1939 (operation Fall Weiss), "Soviets" attacked Poland at 17th september 1939 (operation cowardly attack from behind (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) )
France and Great Britan was supposed to attack them at 3rd september 1939 but they did nothing....why????we were allies at that time!!!
they did nothing till 10.V>1940 when "Germany" attacked them ( i might be wrong about that date....memory fails sometimes).
after the war they didn't defended us at Jauta from that evil red monsters ( (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) ) also dunno why!
Dowding as you said your country gave us bases, planes and stuff like that. THANK YOU for that! our goverment (not that soviet based one in Warsaw) was in London till 1981 or even later...not sure. TY 2nd time!
USA helping us now (TY) more then Europe, but it doesn't means that EuroCountries not helping us at all. as i know we getting a lot of money from EU (TY) Scandinavian countries helping us a lot with "Baltic Sea stuff" (TY) and so on.
i'm not an economist tho, but i think we schould be together with Europe 'cuz in other case we'll be unabled to groving and "red monster" 'll get us again.
to make it clear - i have nothing against you, Brits, ect. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
<S>
-
Our commissioners are unelected, there is massive corruption...
You won't get any argument from me on this one - I'm disillusioned with the whole set-up Europe. But I think the basic ideas behind the EU are sound - we shouldn't run away from it, we should be IN it. How else can we be involved in the reforms?
...criticism of the EU is blasphemy...
I don't think this is true and perhaps you could elaborate on this point, please.
Comparing the EU to the Soviet Union is ludicrous!!! The Soviet Union institutionalised the abuse of basic human rights - the EU has recently drawn up a bill of human rights which is not liked in this country because people believe it goes too far! I don't see how you can compare one to the other.
You mention your business. Business in this country does the great majority of its trade with Europe. Not America, not the Far East, but Europe. Therefore, what happens in Europe economically has a direct effect on the economy of Great Britain. Retreating from Europe and not helping to solve the problems therein does not make any sense.
The Conservatives want us to believe that we are not European. Hell, they want us to believe we are not part of a global community. Look at their stance on asylum seekers and the blatant attempt by Hague and Co. to appeal to zenophobic sentiment. Patriotism is one thing, but a recent survey looked at how people perceive the asylum seekers in this country. In areas where there are very few seekers (relative to places like Dover), a great majority of people said that something like 20% of the population were asylum seekers! The actual figure is a few per cent. I personally beleive that Tory scare policy is partly responsible for this.
I'm not saying Blair is perfect. Far from it, in fact. But god help us if the conservatives get into power.
Bike Killa - I reckon one of the reasons we didn't send an expedition force to Poland was the need to avoid war. This was uppermost in the minds of the British after the horror of WW1. Secondly, it is a matter of logistics - it would take months to get a large force set-up, coordinated and supplied to face a well-organised and capable Wehrmacht. Even in France, we couldn't stop the Germans. I think the British high command had to decide which battles to fight and when to retreat. Towards the end of the Battle of France (for example), Air Chief Marshal Dowding refused to send more Hurricane squadrons to France when the French requested them, because the situation was so dire.
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 11-01-2000).]
-
Dowding:
qts - "Soviet Socialist States of Europe"? Oh Pleeeze. You the speech writer for William Hague per chance?
Do I spot a Everyone's Darling Tony supporter? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (I remember reading somewhere that majority of UK businesses do not trade with EU/outside world - tell them the "benefits" of Euro with Euro itself loosing over 15% of it's value since it's launch, it also helps to explain benefits of a single currency to thousands of bank staff currently working providing exchange services etc - soon to join those out of work...)
Naso: and...
Italians as lovers !!
Your women had better start shaving their armpits then... Or was it the French I was thinking of? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Mielta: Benefit the union? What happend to your strong conviction that the "blessed" countries should help those not "blessed". Or is it that only the US has those obligations?
Obviously it does not bother you that you Brits screwed Poland in 1939 and then sold it into Soviet slavery in 1945.
1. Last time I looked only 3 countries were net contributors to the EU - UK, France and Germany...
2. Brits didn't screw Poland in 1939 - Nazis did; no-one sold them "into Soviet slavery" either - they just "happened" to be located on the way to Berlin where the Soviets were going at the time to stop slaughter of millions of Poles and others in concentration camps (amongst other things, of course).
A little historical titbit for you:
Both Poland and Finland used to be parts of Russian Empire - parts with less autonomy then individual states in the US.
After the revolution in 1917 both were "let go" by Lenin, that is reverted to their independent states form.
In WW2 Poland fought on the side of the Allies, Finland joined "the other camp" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif). Poland was/Finland could easily be occupied by the Soviet army after the war. Poland ended up in Soviet bloc for 45 years albeit with more autonomy this time - Finland was "let go" again... Go figure... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
------------------
lynx
13 Sqn RAF
[This message has been edited by -lynx- (edited 11-01-2000).]
-
Poland's been shafted by it's neighbours since time began ... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
British reluctance to assist in 1939 was due more to continuing fear of a repeat of WWI than anything else.
after the war they didn't defended us at Jauta from that evil red monsters
Actually Patton wanted to invade / attack the USSR in July 1945, and Churchill was also into the idea (documents relating to this were released to the PRO earlier this year) however Truman was against it both due to cost ($ and human lives) and the fact that the USA was at that point not anti USSR. Also, the Western powers still had Japan to contend with.
-
How could I suport Tony Blair and 'New' Labour - I'm a (moderate) socialist, damnit!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
The Liberal Democrats advocate policies which are more left wing than Labour. I voted for them last time, probably will do so again. Or I might vote for Labour to keep the Tory scum out. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The banks have been sacking their staff left, right and centre without the adoption of the Euro - its the way things are going I'm afraid.
-
Denigrating the EU being blasphemy is in official EU documentation, as reported in the Daily Telegraph.
Bluntly, we're being taken for a ride by Europe, and the rot has got to stop.
Yes, the UK does a lot of business with other EU countries. So what? That's no reason for economic or political union. The company at which I'm currently consulting buys a lot of computers from Dell, but it's not going to buy Dell.
Your attack on the Tories - presuming me a Tory - is ill founded and incorrect.
As for Tony Blair, I'd like to ask him if his wife being a lawyer had anything to do with lawyers being excluded from IR35. IMO TB is not to be trusted, nor IMO is Mr Hague, but TB is by far the less trustworthy, and Mr Hague has displayed far more integrity.
FWIW I disagree with Tory policy on many issues, and Mr Major was IMO a complete prat.
As for voting next time around, I'll examine the manifestos (I still have Labour's last one) and vote on the contents therein and my perception of my local candidates.
-
Originally posted by Dowding:
I find your comment breath-takingly ignorant and insulting.
Man, you really get jumpy when you see (or should I say do not see) sarkasm. The first time I used sarkasm, you called me a racist, this time you call me ignorant. I have start using icons to clarify my statements.
My country, my relatives for god's sake, went to war against Germany when they invaded Poland. They could have appeased Hitler and sued for peace at any stage. But we did not.
[/b]
Oh yes you did. Poland GB and France had a treaty on which France and GB reneged. They declared war but never did anything and watched Poland being eaten alive by Germans and Soviets. And that was what Hitler expected. He "knew" GB and France wil stay put.
We gave a base of operations to Polish flyers to strike back at Hitler.
[/b]
This just begs for sarkasm, but I'll refrain. Obviously you do not mean that it was the Polish pilots who benefited from it. It's your nation who owes a debt to those pilots, not the other way around.
What were we supposed to do about the USSR and Poland? Declare war? Launch nuclear strikes to free the Eastern Bloc countries? My friend, that latter idea was actually considered.
[/b]
Poland was a member of the coalition in a total war. At some point GB and US simply decided, ok, we've got what we wanted, screw the rest. Poland way betrayed, pure and simple.
BTW Mietla - how is the slavery of Poland 'my' fault. Quit with the 'you Brits' crap.
[/b]
Why would it be your fault? It is your nation (not you) who along with others betrayed war allies, and bought peace paying for it with our freedom.
P.S. You better be nice to us Poles. This Sunday our Polish Fighting Team we'll provide a cover to your 227 Sqdn. in Africa Corps scenario. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by mietla (edited 11-01-2000).]
-
Originally posted by Naso:
I hope in a future USE, every population will be in correct place,
Germans as soldiers,
Frenchs as dyplomatics,
English as politics,
Spanish as economics,
and...
Italians as lovers !!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
ROFL !!! Naso now this is Fun! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Gh0stFT
-
Dowding:
"My country, my relatives for god's sake, went to war against Germany when they invaded Poland."
Declaring war and going to war are two different things don't you think? Hitler knew it very well that France and Britain won't do ANYTHING to help their ally. That's why he attacked Poland, risking that France will move their tulips from Maginot Line and attack Germany from the west, he knew it will never happen.
"We gave a base of operations to Polish flyers to strike back at Hitler."
In case you didn't know, Polish government had to pay every single penny for operating costs of Polish Army in Britain, including 68 million pounds sterling for operating costs and equipment of Polish Air Force. You "gave us", huh?
Drummer
P.S. Sorry for my bad English I'm still working on it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-
Drummer,
Your English is just fine. In fact, your English is better than some of the native English speakers present.
...
But than again, it is not my native language either, so what do I know?
-
Damn it, forgot to put an emotion face again. I keep assuming that people can get what I'm talking about without those siily faces. "Smile now" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif), "be sad now" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif), "I realy hate you" (http://smilecwm.tripod.com/ut1/rocketpotato.gif) , "I really love you" (http://www.bayarea.net/~amazur/smilies/smile_files/smileysex.gif) etc.
[This message has been edited by mietla (edited 11-02-2000).]
-
As for Tony Blair, I'd like to ask him if his wife being a lawyer had anything to do with lawyers being excluded from IR35.
I'm sure it's somewhere along the same lines as lifting tobacco advertising ban on Formula 1 having nothing (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (I say - nothing!) to do with a million pounds donation to the Labour party from the F1 boss.
As for IR35 - I hear you... You, tax avoiding, dividend paying, socially irresponsible and obviously good for nothing but for screwing yet more tax outta you person... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Can someone please make a terrain with Reading Kennethside tax-office building in it? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
------------------
lynx
13 Sqn RAF
-
Well, of course the easter european countries aren't equal to Germany or France economically. We need someone to exploit (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
------------------
Rickenbacker (Ricken)
-ISAF-
the Independent Swedish Air Force
-
Mielta - you really need to use smileys - comments can be taken either way when actually spoken, nevermind when written down.
For instance:
In fact, your English is better than some of the native English speakers present.
I could take this as a slight against myself, rather than as a joke as it was intended. A smiley (despite how lame they might be) would clear this up. It would avoid misunderstandings like those described by yourself.
Drummer - your English is fine, but I doubt the information you give. Firstly, Great Britain was virtually bankrupt after the war. The whole country had given virtually everything it had in WW2. Why shouldn't we ask for the costs to be paid back? Also £68 million is a lot of money now, but in 1945 it would be equivalent to several BILLION pounds - are you sure that's right?
Defending Poland was a logistical impossibility once it Hitler had amassed his forces - we couldn't even halt them in France, which was a mere 23 miles from Dover. From what I can see, trying to 'save' Poland would have been futile. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but remember that Britain and France wanted to avoid war at any cost, even if that meant sacrificing allies. Not pleasant, but I can empathise with their sentiments.
Mietla - you're our air cover? God help us! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Good to know we got some capable help while we plaster... er... oops almost gave away our mission then! Don't know who might be listening. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
See you Sunday. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 11-02-2000).]
-
Originally posted by Dowding:
In fact, your English is better than some of the native English speakers present.
I could take this as a slight against myself, rather than as a joke as it was intended.
Oh, c’mon Dowding, your Queen's English criticized by a Pole? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I wasn't speaking about anyone in particular. It's just that when you read this board, you'll find a lot of examples of poor language usage. We are all "guilty" here.
Besides, as far as I know an exquisite and/or efficacious command of the English language is not a prerequisite to expressing your opinions here.
. Firstly, Great Britain was virtually bankrupt after the war. The whole country had given virtually everything it had in WW2. Why shouldn't we ask for the costs to be paid back? Also £68 million is a lot of money now, but in 1945 it would be equivalent to several BILLION pounds - are you sure that's right?
[/b]
We have to disagree again. Polish pilots fought directly for your country (some of them directly in British units.), and may I add they were pretty damn effective at that.
If GB was broke, Poland was wiped out.
remember that Britain and France wanted to avoid war at any cost, even if that meant sacrificing allies. Not pleasant, but I can empathize with their sentiments.
[/b]
That is exactly what I said in an original post. We agree again.
Mietla - you're our air cover? God help us! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[/b]
Don’t you worry Dowding, we’ll keep your behind nice and clear (so to speak). Hope you won’t send us another £68 million bill for the service. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by mietla (edited 11-02-2000).]
-
I really don't see any point of this discussion because U dowding was learning different History then other European Countries !!!
(I was in UK this Year and old people are much more understanding then the youngsters)
BTW I have family in UK.
U cant tell me that U are so great.
Your own leader Winston Churchill said something during a war, about your behavior in 1939 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (as I remember)
Dowding:
1st. read some publications about WW2, not only UK ones.
2nd. I had pleasure to meet one of english pilots fighting in BoB and he said that the "Foreigners saved Your bellybutton that day"
Not only a Poles but many other countries was flighting for you!!! so or me people like U are ................. (U can answer yourself)
<S> to all of U !
Asmodan
308 (Polish) Squadron RAF "City of Cracow"
(http://www.raf303.org/308/308banner.gif)
[This message has been edited by Asmodan PL (edited 11-02-2000).]
-
One more thing I dont know for sure but UK didnt pay USA for there support
------------------
Asmodan
308 (Polish) Squadron RAF "City of Cracow"
(http://www.raf303.org/308/308banner.gif)
[This message has been edited by Asmodan PL (edited 11-02-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Asmodan PL (edited 11-02-2000).]
-
.......but remember that Britain and France wanted to avoid war at any cost, even if that meant sacrificing allies.....
yeah. that's what i'm talking about (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) both of my grandfathers was fighting at WW2. one with Soviets ( captured but alived, died 12 years ago ) second with Germans ( captured, alived too, retired Colonel now ). as i know they expected some help from their Ally at that hard days. can i say that they were sacrified? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) that's why i think that it was unfair. a lot of peoples was believing that your country 'll help us, but when we were dying here our allies...........ehhh
nothing personal of course i hope you know it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
<S>
-
Dowding - try to get this book.
"The Forgotten Few" by Adam Zamoyski
Might shed some light.
As for paying for the equipment that polish services used - it did happend. Every uniform and bullet was paid for from the polish government reserves abroad. They prefered to hand it to london then allow commies to claim it.
That i have no problem with.
There is just one thing that really saddens me. After the war there was no room for the Poles in england... they were no longer needed. Up till late 1947 they were activelly encouraged by an official government ( and by population well after that ) to "go home". Some did...
( from the book mentioned above. Page 212 )
"Many were less fortunate. Wladysklaw Sliwinski was shot, and his English wife Wyra was thrown into jail. Either other pilots were shot wiht him. Zygmunt Spkolowski, a navigator, was given a job in the Polish Air Force pilots' training school, but he was arrested at the same time as Skalski. He was shot in 1953, along with thirty others."
All those men were enougraged by UK government (which was quite aware of the Katyn and other of the Stalin's little places ) and population - to return to poland. This is what they survived the war for.
Whole thing is a moot point.
As for Europian union - face up to the facts lads - there is no way that UK or any other country on the planet by itself can stand up and negotiate with USA as equal.
Europian Union can. That's why it's created. UK by itself is powerless... Denmark is powerless.. Poland is powerless... as someone once said.. "united we stand, divided we fall"
------------------
Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
-
Not only a Poles but many other countries was flighting for you!!! so or me people like U are ................. (U can answer yourself)...
Go on Asmodan, finish the sentence, I'm sure you want to.
Can someone, particularly Asmodan, please point out a part of any of my posts that denied that Poles (or other foreigners) fought for Britain? Or that I believed Polish assistance wasn't welcome (or needed)? Because I must be blind, stupid and ignorant going by what you guys have posted. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
I do know my WW2 history, and to say the BoB was won solely by foreign pilots is simply untrue. They helped and contributed, and maybe without them the outcome would have been different, but what would the outcome have been if you removed all the British pilots (i.e. the majority)? Poland, Britain, France and the res of Europe would be plunged into a dark-age that might never have ended.
As for post-war British foreign policy, this was largely driven by intense paranoia viz the USSR. Maybe it wasn't right, but you show me a country with a blemish free record of international relations and I'll show you a country that doesn't actually exist.
I'll ask the same question I've asked in previous posts - how could Britain realistically hope to stop the Germans marching through Poland in 1939. Tell me how the British Army was supposed to transfer men, tanks and munitions in just a few months AND fight a victorious campaign that would rout the Germans and avoid a global conflict. Also tell me how any democratically elected government could get the British people (who are still so very anti-war and could not tolerate any action that would be seen as openly provocative to the Germans) to agree to deploying troops along Poland's border with Germany?
Gentlemen, your use of hindsight is exemplary. But Chamberlain et al didn't have that; all they had was the public opinion that war was to be avoided at any cost. It gave them very, very little room for manoever.
Fd-ski - I agree with you about the UK's involvement in the EU. But it has to be right for ALL countries. To build a community on anything less would be to condemn future generations to great instability, the exact opposite of what the EU is about. Perhaps war would be the outcome. For this reason the decision to enter into a European Common Currency has to be a careful one; there will be no going back.
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 11-02-2000).]
-
Sorry dowding (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) but 1st time I was reading this Topic I was weary upset probably it was why I attack U (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
the most incredible thing is that U probably never was in East Europe in countries like Poland/Czechs/Slovakia
But U Know what to think about that countries (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
that's really sad (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
sorry for attacking U one more (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) <S>
BTW: as a pilots U was not so great Best pilot in BOB was Czech (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)flying with polish squadron 303 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (Frantisek Jozef)
and answer me for one question what was the best squadron ???
One more thing West border of Germany was left without almost any forces (1st, September 1939r.) army of 3000 would go straight to Berlin !!!!
(that's from a History book that I bought in RAF museum)
[This message has been edited by Asmodan PL (edited 11-02-2000).]
-
i found it on UK website:
Following the invasion of Poland by Germany and the Soviet Union in September 1939 the Polish government and forces evacuated to Romania, and on into France where they reformed.
After the fall of France the Polish government was established in London and Polish armed forces came under the overall allied command.
During the Battle of Britain in 1940 1 in 8 of allied pilots was Polish, and the highest scoring allied fighter pilot flew with 303 Squadron of the Polish Air Force.
It is said that the Battle of Britain was won by a narrow margin, and the contribution of the already combat experienced Polish pilots was decisive.
i hope this likn 'll be working for you:
http://www.aquila.btinternet.co.uk/lincs/polishaf/paf.htm (http://www.aquila.btinternet.co.uk/lincs/polishaf/paf.htm)
p.s. i don't blame YOU for anything (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
Dowding - no amocity left here (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Basically what happneded is, your statement about "bringing something beneficial into the union" kinda pissed my fellow squadron/country mates - and i don't blame them.
It seems that Poland has an opinion of an "back assed" country in Europe.. "second class europians" one might say.
Is there a reason for that ? Sure. We're way behind and got long way to go. But, is it entirely our own fault ?
Freedom of Poland was a price that UK and USA was willing to pay for support of USSR against Hitler. We got screwed for 50 years - with no other fault of ours then geography.
Many brave man died to save Korea and South Vietnam from evils of communism.. yet nobody saved poles... who wanted to be saved more then other two coutries mentioned combined (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
getting back to the topic - lot of poles feel that they earned their entry into EU - the union of developed countries - by being a "beating boy" of europe for long long time. It was Poland where the revolution against communism started. Would the wall come down without "Solidairy" movement ?
Poland won't get rich overnight. Polish people in general are not very good with money ( i know i'm not (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ) We tend to be too nice and naive to be good bussinessmen... just read some Polish history.
What can Poland contribute to the Union ?
Hell... we ain't got toejam. But we're trying to make up for the time we lost. We have great educated youth, excellent researchers and tradition of hard work and pride. If you're looking for Poland to bring the wealth to the equation - sorry, can't do.
Please forgive my countrymen if their posts offended you. Their english doesn't do them justice. If their words seemed harsh, i truly believe its the language barrier.
------------------
Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
-
dowding, please contact me at bikekilla@poczta.onet.pl
i'm sure we can get some info together and try to learn some things from each other (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
i hope i didn't offended you in my posts, was trying to put it in words as good as i can (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
-
Hm, am I the only one who is astonished to see how far Poland has come since the collapse of the Soviet Union?
I remember back in high school, there was an exchange program where some from our school went to Poland for a month, and some Polacks came to Sweden for a month.
Back then, they said that Poland was quite poor, and that living conditions weren't very good.
Now, it's much better, and getting better each day. I think that give Poland another 10-20 years, and it'll be up there with the rest with regards to material wealth.
------------------
StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
-
It was Poland where the revolution against communism started. Would the wall come down without "Solidairy" movement ?
Well - it actually started in Hungary in 1956, to be followed by another attempt in Prague in 1968 - both crashed.
Not sure if the wall would come down without Solidarity but it sure as hell would not move anywhere without Mikhail "Forgotten Hero Who Liberated Eastern Europe" Gorbachev.
Not doubting for a second the bravery or dedication of Poles, Chechs and others but without this guy we would quite possibly still have the Warzaw pact...
As for Britain "betraying" Poland before and after the war: to say this is just as shallow as to accuse the Russians in screwing Eastern Europe for 50 years. Politicians make these decisions, not ordinary people. Why can't we grasp this rather simple concept and lay the blaim where it belongs?
------------------
lynx
13 Sqn RAF
-
Asmodan - I went to the USSR in 1990 when the country was at its lowest, just before the coup. It's not much of a leap in imagination to assume most of the Eastern Bloc was in a similar (or worse) condition.
I'll say it again, I've never disputed the fact that Polish, Czech, French etc pilots were decisive in the BoB victory. Read my last post again. But why should that decide which countries enter economic union? It is completely irrelevant to the economics of the situation.
I think you all misundertand what I'm getting at in this thread. I was discussing European integration, and specifically economic integration in the form of a single european currency. The issue is really about economics, and I don't think political history comes into it. If we allow Poland into the the Single European Currency because of the deeds of their flyers, then we must exclude Germany by the same token. That would be senseless.
Fd-ski - the fact is that Poland (and other former Eastern Bloc states) are second class compared to the UK, Germany etc IN TERMS OF ECONOMICS. The issue is not who is to blame for that, but how the future can be shaped to allow Poland etc to become a partner in Europe. Surely that is what matters now?
Let me also say that I was not being intentionally disparaging of your country (or of any Eastern European country). I was talking of the future, not the past, because only the future can be changed. I think alot of you read my notes of caution regarding the integration of Eastern European countries as a slur, when in fact I was trying to discuss the hard facts that will determine Europe's future. Rushing into integration will mean disaster, in my opinion (for what that's worth (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)).
I realise that sometimes things written on this BB can read the wrong way, especially if English is not the first language of the poster. But your English, guys, is excellent. You can probably speak it better than I can - I come from an area of England called Yorkshire - I have a strong accent and use alot of dialect and slang when I speak. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
<S>
-
I love you all! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Yep, the west screwed Poland over that is for sure - but for good reason. If they stood up to Stalin in 1945, I don't think it would be a pretty picture. 10 T-34s vs 1 Sherman are not good odds. ...and please, no more "who would have won WWIII" discussions - the point is that it would be a bloodshed.
Poles died becasue of the Commie "occupation", but many more Poles and many others would have died if it came to blows between the soviets and the west in 1945.
Besides, the reds went away after 50 years - they got their punishment (just look at Russia today). Too bad about the inocent people over there. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
There is little excuse for expecting Poland to pay for the "priviledge" of defending Britain or the harsh treatment Poles received in the later stages of the war and after it (a lot of common people in Britain liked the Soviets). This is ironic, but one anti-Polish demonstration near London in 1944 was interrupted when a low flying Polish Mustang went zooming overhead in pursuit of a buzz bomb headed for the capitol (not to be outdone by No. 303 Sqn, the Polish Mustang pilots took up 16 spots on the list of the top 20 Mustang diver aces). The harsh treatement dealt to the Poles was the fault of certain easily influenced people that were alive back then. The military guys that saw Poles in action hated what their goverment did to them (read "The Forgotten Few" by Zamoyski).
As for 1939, I guess its just a difference in the way poeple look at things. True, the French Army and the BEF lasted only slightly longer then the Poles who were fighting two enemies, so I think it is safe to say there was no way for Britain and France to mobilize on September 1st and have any outcome on the Polish campaign. Still, Poles think that a word is a word, and they try their best to honor it (as foolish as that is).
-----------------------
As for the EU, give it time. I am very proud to say Poland is on its way, just like it was after WWI. Who knows, it soon might be the 15th Century "Hussar" times reborn. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
----------------
S/L rf-a,
No. 308 (Polish) Sqn
Royal Air Force
[This message has been edited by rfa (edited 11-03-2000).]
-
I'm prolly missing something but there are loads - and I mean LOADS of people of Polish origin in the UK. Most of them stayed after the war - I used to rent a house from a Pole. I've lived here for 10 years and never come across people who would have anything against Poles. French - sure, but that's another story. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
------------------
lynx
13 Sqn RAF
-
Lynx, that is what I mean when I say it was the fault of certain people that were alive back then, not now. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
<S>
-
Hindsight is king in these type of discussions.
Show me a country with clean record of tolerance for foreigners (in every sense of the word).