Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Chairboy on June 22, 2006, 04:00:33 AM
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As some of you may have noticed, I've not made any progress on my plane lately. My workspace is a mess, and I keep coming up with great excuses not to clean it when I have time. Sadly, the plane has not automagically built itself, so I'm going to have to try a different tactic to get in the air.
I've decided to buy a small plane to buzz around with in the meantime. I mentioned that I was interested in something like this a few months ago, but the restaurants still haven't sold (we might have a buyer for one, but never assume anything). A few days ago, I stumbled across a plane that has a very low cost of acquisition, is super simple, and just might fit the immediate bill.
Here's the part that's going to garner wave after wave of tsk'ing from folks like Golfer. It's a Rans S-4, originally sold as an ultralight, now being sold as an LSA. It's a single seater, tail dragger, and has no electrical system. Statistically 2-stroke engines have the highest failure rate, so of course it has a Rotax 447, a 47hp two stroke with a pull cord to start (as featured on many fine lawnmowers). It is unencumbered by such niceties like 'flaps' and 'brakes' but that should just increase its charm.
(http://hallert.net/images/coyote_front.jpg)
It's basically a single seat Piper Cub. Tube construction, fabric covering (in this case, Dacron), and the doors are optional. If I get it, I forsee some nice, leisurely river running and maybe even some light XC. It only has a 5 gallon tank at the moment, but this is perfect, it'll give me perfect weight loss milestones. When I lose enough weight, I'll be able to upgrade my fuel capacity appropriately to keep it near max gross! Eat your heart out Richard Simmons, I'll be on the Chuck Lindberg diet.
It's in Hanford, CA, so I'm planning on heading down in a few days with a trailer to inspect it. If it passes muster, I fit, and I decide that it's the right plane, then I'll drive it back home behind my Buick. I have a friend who has more recent 2-stroke mechanical experience than I do so between the two of us we can give the engine a thorough inspection (my good looks and his skills combined form SuperMechanic(tm)).
I'm going to go schedule some tail dragger time at the local FBO before I head south. I've done a lot of reading, done a lot of sim time in conventional gear planes, but nothing really beats actual tail experience. My main concern is ground handling (obviously), and I'll need that taildragger endorsement before I finish registering it as an E-LSA so I can log some honest time.
Ok, let the flames begin. For ease of discussion, I suggest the following identifiers to use in your message:
"A1" - Messages about how dangerous ultralights are.
"B1" - Replies focussing on how stupid I am to consider flying a conventional gear plane without the endorsement, irrespective of it being an ultralight at the moment.
"A2" - Messages that would fall in the A1 category except they have too many exclamation points.
"C1" - Chastisements to just get back to work on my Cozy because obviously I'll never work on it again if I'm out flying.
"D1" - General admonishments about experimental aviation and how safe Lycomings and Cessnas and whatnot are compared to homebuilt deathtraps, even though it's not directly relevant to this conversation.
"E1" - This is a special category for messages that involve mathematical calculations about the gross weight and a general concern that the plane may, based on published stats, be flying heavy.
Thanks!
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A fool and his money are soon to part.
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I saw one of these on the toy aisle at walmart. Didn't come with any AA batteries though.
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do you need a tailwheel endorsement for an LSA?
wood prop? kewl:cool:
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Cool, a baby Fiesler Storch!
If those two stroke engines aren't too reliable, I'd do a lot of deadstick landings to begin with... and I would buy an emergency parachute of course ;)
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E1
I like this system...I can be a math wiz without all of that pesky math!
Seriously though, it looks like it'd be fun as heck to fly around in, provided it doesn't fall apart and/or crash and go boom.
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Originally posted by SOB
Seriously though, it looks like it'd be fun as heck to fly around in, provided it doesn't fall apart and/or crash and go poof like a wet firecracker.
:D
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It all depends on the age of the aircraft and the condition of the fabric.
I like the 503 instead of the 447. I have flown trikes with 503 and basically at 200 hours send the engine to get overhauled (about $400) and you are good to go for another 200 hours. That engine is quite common in snowmobiles so there is no shortage of mechanics who know how to overhaul them. If you got that plane I would consider an engine upgrade.
I have flown a tail dragger ultralight. They are not that hard to handle as they land and take off pretty slow.
If you are not getting a really really good deal on this aircraft I would look at what else is out there in the same price range. Ultralights tend to be hard to sell outside of the circle of ultrapilots that know the seller personally. There are good deals to be had.
However ultralights are great to fly as they are cheap and very safe if you go with a proven design and have your PPL.
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Only flew in one microlight. A remarkable flight in conditions too rough for it really. I was glad to get down in one piece. But I always thought it would be nice to have one for those calm summer evenings. Perhaps when I get my house out in the country.
I could flit around the locality until the sun starts to set and the shadows start to lengthen.
I say buy it or something similar. Real fun flying.
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I'd give anything for any kind of aircraft. And, I always liked the stick-n-wire simplicity of ultras. Enjoy the hell out of the priviledge.
Get yerself a BRS for safety, tho, just in case.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
A fool and his money are soon to part.
Hmm Tailwheel, handpropped, low time pilot.... how's your life insurance?
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Check to make sure how it is registered and what the requirements are for maintenance and mechanics. If it requires an A&P the costs will go up. The engine is one thing to be concerned about but they are fairly cheap to overhaul. Make sure you have a mechanic who understands the engine and secondly understands you will be FLYING behind it and not just cruising accross the snow with it.
You will need fully covered "lodging" for it or the fabric will degrade as it is not fully shielded from the sun like opaque painted fabric.
The no brakes is something I'd look into especially if you will be flying to and from an airport. How will you hold in place if you have no brakes.
Get a small handheld radio to monitor and call out positioning if you do use an airport. You already know you'll have to use non towered airports but it is very annoying to be in the pattern and have some oversized tinker toy kite pop up in the middle of the operation without any radio notice so you have to take evasive action.
Good luck with it and fly near someplace you can set down with an engine failure at all times.
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Originally posted by jigsaw
Hmm Tailwheel, handpropped, low time pilot.... how's your life insurance?
First thing I did before taking lessons was get life insurance. It is hard to get once you have to declare you are a pilot.
However I have over 100 hours on a trike and know 10 or so other trike pilots who all started flying in the past 5 years. No major accidents in the group. We all took good lessons and apply what was taught.
Chairboy got his private in southern California airspace. He knows how to fly. He will do fine.
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What are you paying if it's over 10k go buy a decent Champ, Vagabond or the like. Tried, trusted and true.
http://www.barnstormers.com/Piper,%20PA-15+Vagabond%20Classifieds.htm
http://www.barnstormers.com/Taildragger,%20Aeronca%20Classifieds.htm
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id buy it. anything that flies is cool :aok
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When all else fails...
(http://www.clusterballoon.org/intro/intro_40.jpg)
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Originally posted by moneyguy
id buy it. anything that flies is cool :aok
on the right, AOPA boss Phil Boyer
(http://www.greatscotsaircraft.com/Phil_Boyer.jpg)
cool?
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Originally posted by indy007
When all else fails...
(http://www.clusterballoon.org/intro/intro_40.jpg)
Don't forget your pellet gun for the decent.
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Originally posted by ChickenHawk
Don't forget your pellet gun for the decent.
or a pointy stick! :aok :aok :aok
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YOU'LL SHOOT YOU EYE OUT WITH THAT PLANE...
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The plane is $3,900. The A&P requirements do not exist as it is currently an ultralight. Once I add an ELT, do some paperwork, and have one of the A&Ps or the DAR in my EAA chapter give it a once over, I'll register it as an E-LSA (Experimental Light Sport Aircraft). I'll have an N-Number and everything. I'll attend the appropriate 16 hour course to get my repairmans certificate (this is something that E-LSAs can do, but ya can't do with normal experimental aircraft) and will be able to sign off on the annual myself, but I'll still get a second pair of eyes involved as a backup. Never proofread your own writing.
Interestingly, it's _not_ hand propped, not technically. There's a pull cable (like a lawnmower) sticking out of the floorboard/firewall between the rudder pedals. You preflight, strap yourself in with seatbelts, turn on the ignition, yell 'clear!' and pull the cable.
Regarding the no brakes thing, I'll be watching that carefully. The seller and a few other Rans owners online say that the plane is very draggy and very controllable even without brakes, but if I don't believe 'em after trying it on a wide runway, then I'll retrofit something appropriate.
I'm looking to buy a handheld, anyone have one they want to sell? I'm super interested in the Icom A5 Sport or A6 Sport (or their VOR capable doppelgangers), but I'm all ears on other radios y'all recommend. I'm not going to be a toy kite clogging up the airport, I'm comfortable using the airways/ATC system and I don't intend to suddenly get radio shy now that I'm in a non-electric plane.
I might be able to go get it this weekend if things work out, I'll let y'all know what happens!
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C1
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Chairboy, that is very similar to my old Ultralight. As Habu recommended, I'd look into an engine upgrade. The one in it is ......... adequate. Barely. How much do you weigh? I was 185-195 lbs when I was flying, and I was close to the limit. Makes for some sluggish climbs and maneuvering. The 503 I put in mine was about an extra 10HP I think, and it made a world of difference. They made a bigger one yet, cant remember the number on that one. After that you have to step up to 4 strokes.
I'd still be flying one today if I werent so dang fat now. And the fact that I worry about the winds here. Small planes have enough trouble with the wind and crashing, I can just imagine what 40-50mph gusts would do to an Ultralight. I'd make you a great deal on my old one, only I'm afraid after sitting this long the wing fabric is going to be junk and I'm sure the engine needs rebuilt. Its been in storage in a barn for going on 10 years now. Plus I dont think you want to drive all the way to Illinois to pick it up lol. :)
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I won't be saying anything other than can I be listed as the beneficiary of your insurance policy?
The only fixed wing ultralights I've flown were the Challenger/Challenger II. Between all 4 models (1 & 2 seats with the long and clipped wings) and a couple powered parachutes I only have maybe 20 hours in ultralight airplanes. Personally I wouldn't be one to touch that airplane with a 10-1/2 foot pole. I'd buy an Aeronca Chief and hire a good instructor to teach me how to fly it if I were you. But I'm not and that's why the EAA thrives :)
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hangs formula for light weight aircraft.
wind shear+lack of horsepower=dead
...does not matter how hot yer pilot poo is.
wind shear+lack of horsepower=dead
cute plane though. I'd never get in it unless it could paylod double my weight and climb at better than 500fpm. (a cub can do 450fpm)
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The next engine up from the 503 is the 582. It is liquid cooled and weighs more but it is a nice engine as well. More money.
My trike has a 912 S on it. Climbs at better than 2000fpm for the first few thousand feet.
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Ah yes, 582 it is. I didnt know it was liquid cooled though, good thing I didnt buy that one lol. Would have been a short first flight. :)
Have to agree with Hang. That little 40hp just aint enough if you get into any wind. A good friend of my family died that way. He came around for a landing and a wind shear caught him, pushed him down into powerlines. Of course, he wasnt electrocuted. The powerlines took his tail section off and he went straight into the ground.
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Well, the official factory lies-uh, er, specs are here:
http://www.rans.com/s4spec.html
At gross, 700fpm with this engine combination. I expect a bit less, but if it's within an order of magnitude, that doesn't sound half bad.
Clean stall, 31mph. Cruise 60-65mph. 100ft takeoff roll, not bad. The 6:1 glide ratio is an attention getter, definately not a glass plane. Of course, with a 27mph stall w/ flaps, those 2-stroke unexpected landings sound pretty survivable with a little planning/smart decision making.
The 447 is so dang light, I'm concerned that a bigger engine would take me way over gross. The 503 is only 5hp stronger but adds 10lbs. Going up to the 582 or revmasters mean even more weight.
Horsepower is definately smart for windy situations, but there's no replacement for inertial displacement (eg, mass). A light plane like this will not handle gusts quite as well as, say, a fifteen hundred pound loaded 152!
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Originally posted by Debonair
on the right, AOPA boss Phil Boyer
(http://www.greatscotsaircraft.com/Phil_Boyer.jpg)
cool?
im not sure i follow what your trying to say :confused:
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He's saying that Phil Boyer isn't cool, challenging the assertion that anything that flies is cool (since Boyer is a pilot).
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Chairboy, there are 2 versions of the 503. One puts out 4-5 hp more than the other one. Thats 10 hp over what you have now for about the same weight increase as the lesser 503. Just sayin.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
He's saying that Phil Boyer isn't cool, challenging the assertion that anything that flies is cool (since Boyer is a pilot).
and since he is teh ghey (just look at him lol)...amazing thedifference a little more HP makes.
Cessna 150, 100hp rate of climb@sea level & fully loaded ~700'/min if you're in the engines first 100hrs.
same plane 150hp 1500'/min easy.
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Originally posted by Debonair
on the right, AOPA boss Phil Boyer
(http://www.greatscotsaircraft.com/Phil_Boyer.jpg)
cool?
And is that you on the left Debonair?
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Originally posted by Debonair
same plane 150hp 1500'/min easy.
150/150's are a riot... I used to have access to one and it was really a fun little scooter.
Never underestimate the fun of an average engine in a lighter than average airframe :aok
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A1
Engine Dependenability 101 (http://www.flurl.com/uploaded/Ultralight_Crash_6402.html)
If yer gonna get an ultralight with a 'real' aircraft airframe.. why not get one with a 'real' aircraft engine in it? That miserable 2 stroke has a suck-ass rep for a reason. Save the gambling trips for Vegas.
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Originally posted by Kurt
And is that you on the left Debonair?
no, iirc that is the champion of several malomar eating competions
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I'm going to try to make it down this weekend, can anyone suggest a place between Eugene, OR and Hanford, CA that might sell Icom handhelds? I'm looking to get an A5 Sport or A6 Sport, and I can get 'em off the internet but not before my trip.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
A1
Engine Dependenability 101 (http://www.flurl.com/uploaded/Ultralight_Crash_6402.html)
If yer gonna get an ultralight with a 'real' aircraft airframe.. why not get one with a 'real' aircraft engine in it? That miserable 2 stroke has a suck-ass rep for a reason. Save the gambling trips for Vegas.
That guy turned over trees right after take off. Not smart. He had a nice road he could have climbed out over.
Always fly as if your engine is going to quit any time.
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C1
Plus flying solo is fun for only so long...
I'd say get back to work slacker!
Seriously, if you're on a budget, split your cash between rentals for currency and building the plane you really want.
IMHO.
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Seriously, if you're on a budget, split your cash between rentals for currency and building the plane you really want.
Most sensible idea yet.
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Re: Flying as if the engine will quit anytime
Absolutely! My instructor and I were in strong agreement about that, and I'm a fulltime member of the "Where can I land?" club when flying.
Regarding the sensibility of X,Y, or Z: Making sense has nothing to do with it. I've got enough supplies to make a lot of progress on the plane, but I'm finding it almost impossible to work on at the moment because the kids come barging in, the workspace is a mess, and so on. I'll get back to work on it soon, but right now, I just want to flyyyyyyyyyy.
Renting makes me feel like I'm on a clock, and the scheduling, lack of availabillity, and stuff like that takes some of the fun out of it. Plus, most FBOs (the local ones included) prohibit grass/turf operations (other than the one the local CFIs do during student training), and right now I've got a hankering for some unimproved landing strips!
My mom has a nice field at her house, not to mention a super well mowed and maintained private RC/Piper Cub hangout practially next door, and it would sure be neat to try at least the latter out.
Finally, if pilots were all level headed guys who only did the practical, then at the very least all general aviation planes would be owned by large partnerships to spread the expenses.
:D
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Re: Flying as if the engine will quit anytime
Absolutely! My instructor and I were in strong agreement about that, and I'm a fulltime member of the "Where can I land?" club when flying.
Regarding the sensibility of X,Y, or Z: Making sense has nothing to do with it. I've got enough supplies to make a lot of progress on the plane, but I'm finding it almost impossible to work on at the moment because the kids come barging in, the workspace is a mess, and so on. I'll get back to work on it soon, but right now, I just want to flyyyyyyyyyy.
Renting makes me feel like I'm on a clock, and the scheduling, lack of availabillity, and stuff like that takes some of the fun out of it. Plus, most FBOs (the local ones included) prohibit grass/turf operations (other than the one the local CFIs do during student training), and right now I've got a hankering for some unimproved landing strips!
My mom has a nice field at her house, not to mention a super well mowed and maintained private RC/Piper Cub hangout practially next door, and it would sure be neat to try at least the latter out.
Finally, if pilots were all level headed guys who only did the practical, then at the very least all general aviation planes would be owned by large partnerships to spread the expenses.
:D
Agree on all the salient points. only wish to add:
You have one license.. and one life. Little complications like FAA accident and incident reports, insurance, recovery costs, medical bills... vs utter dependability and price.
Choose Wisely, grasshopper.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Finally, if pilots were all level headed guys who only did the practical, then at the very least all general aviation planes would be owned by large partnerships to spread the expenses.
:D
Practical people suck! If everybody was practical, there'd be no reason for these to even exist. :t :t :t
(http://www.legendaircraft.net/construction.jpg)
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Originally posted by Hangtime
You have one license.. and one life. Little complications like FAA accident and incident reports, insurance, recovery costs, medical bills... vs utter dependability and price.
Ultimate dependability is available in a firefall forward package now? Hadn't heard....
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Update!
I'm borrowing my dad's Toyota Tacoma. The neighbor has a boat trailer for sale. Tomorrow, I plan on welding or bolting some little wheel saddles at the back for the main gear to rest in. I'll remove the thing that the boat rests on at the front and should be able to tie down the tail wheel to the neck of the trailer and still have about 3 feet to the hitch.
The horizontal stabs fold up for storage, and the wings are about 14'x4.5' each. When in Hanford, I'll build some PVC frames to transport them. I'll wrap 'em in a tarp or something for this trip to protect them from the wind and figure out something more permanent when I'm back at home base. I'll secure these frames to the sides of the boat trailer.
Need to do some welding, bolting, and so on tomorrow. Should be a busy day. At some point, I should probably introduce myself to the neighbor and actually buy the trailer I've been plotting over for the last couple days.
With luck, I'll be on the road early Monday morning for an afternoon rendezvous.
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.....or I could just whip a box together to put on the back of the boat trailer. No welding, just use some plywood, angle brackets, carriage bolts, and maybe even a hinge on back so I have a built in loading ramp.
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Chairboy. If flying was safe and predictable then it would not be such a skill to learn to be a good pilot. Every flight involves risk. Good pilots do what they can to eliminate as much of it as possible and if something does go wrong they deal with it as best they can.
Today I flew my trike into a very busy aviation exposition in Oshawa Ontario. Lots of incoming at departing traffic. Lots of radio calls and 3 different arrival procedures depending on your aircraft type.
It was hectic and the winds were gusty and there was strong thermal activity when I departed. I probably could have driven there faster direct from my house.
However I never gave driving a second though. I flew in and flew back in the gusty conditions. I guess that is what separates those of us who live to fly from those of us who don't get it.
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http://www.faa.gov/NTAP/oshkosh.pdf
Here's an arrival. These are more exciting for me...and beautiful.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/621_1151266659_locdmeease.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/621_1151266670_rabbitapproach.jpg)
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Originally posted by indy007
Practical people suck! If everybody was practical, there'd be no reason for these to even exist. :t :t :t
(http://www.legendaircraft.net/construction.jpg)
An LA-7 with a PT-6?
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I'm abut off to bed. I have the alarm clock set to go off in 5 hours, hope to be on the road by 5:30ish.
I bought a 17' long boat trailer (usually hails 12' boats) today for $220. I detached the rear rollers and mounted a piece of 3/4" plywoodon it to make a slightly tilting platform, bolted that to the frame that the rollers were on. I'll fabricate some ramps down in California, ran out of time here.
I'm kicking myself, I had this big plan to burn some audiobooks to CD for the drive since I wouldn't be taking my carputer along. Assuming I had synced them to my master media collection at home, I traded vehicles with my dad (so I could use his truck to tow) and didn't realize until late tonight that the books I wanted to listen to were not there. Crikey! So I've scraped together a bunch of old CDs lying around and burned a couple of mix disks, hope the drive doesn't suck too much. Maybe I'll just spend the time making airplane noises and having imaginary conversations between myself and the various airspace controllers.
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How about an update?
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Yes! I was wondering if anyone was going to ask....
So, I drove down. 700 miles-ish. I met with the seller, great guy. We talked about the plane and plans for trailering it, then he gave me the manuals and docs for the plane and engine. I took them back to my hotel room and started reading. Read every page, learned a lot.
Next morning, we got together and went out to the airport. Airplane looked good, I inspected it and found some squawks. We spent a few hours working on it and going over stuff. While wrenching around in the cockpit, I found a wasp nest. I cut it off, but on and off had to jump out and run off when Mr. Wasp came looking for me. We rolled it over to the pump and I put in a half tank of gas, mixed with 2-stroke oil. We primed it, cleared the area, and I gave the pull cord a yank. Took a couple times, but then it fired up.
HOLY CRAP IT'S LOUD!
The doors were off because of the heat, and the noise and prop blast were... pretty surprising.
I did some practice taxiing, then checked the windsock. Limp, maybe a little bit towards the right, so I picked the appropriate end of the runway and finished taxiing.
I checked the pattern, then took the runway and gave it power. The plane started rolling. Unbeknownst to me, while I was pulling onto the runway, the wind suddenly switched 180 degrees and began gusting slightly. On my first tailwheel takeoff, I was taking off with a quartering tail wind.
Accelerating, I pushed the stick forward slightly to pick up the tail and was then on the mains. I continued to speed up, and just as the plane took off, I was hit by a light tail gust. It pushed the plane off to one side towards the edge of the runway, and the right wheel touched the pavement again. I kicked the left rudder, took the wheel off the pavement and steadied things up. I flew down the runway at about 5 feet to get more airspeed, then began a slow climb. This was about when I noticed that my airspeed indicator was reading zero. I checked my altimeter, it hadn't changed from when I had dialed it into the field alt.
Aw geez.
I tipped the nose forward a bit to build up extra airspeed because I didn't know the stall characteristics. Using visual references, I flew the pattern. On downwind, I experimented with the controls to see how it responded. I turned base and final in a stabilized descent, having to rely on the feel of the plane to figure out my speed. This was suck.
I lined up, reduced power, and brought it down. At about 50 feet, another gust. The plane tipped to one side, I kicked the rudder over, jammed the throttle, aborted the landing and flew out the runway heading. Obviously (still oblivious to the quartering tailwind) there was something else about the plane I needed to know. I climbed out, turned crosswind. The engine was screaming, the wind was almost taking my glasses off, and I wasn't wild about the experience so far. I turned downwind, and a bit of motion caught my eye.
The wasp.
Somehow, Mr. Wasp had hidden somewhere in the cockpit and was pissed. He came flying out from behind the panel towards my face. About 6 inches from my nose, the wind blast from the prop caught him and chucked him out the side. Holy cow, close one.
I turn base, then final, and set up for landing again. I stabilize my approach, bring it in. Pulling back the throttle, I bring it in, flare, and touch down. As I touch down, my wheelspeed is of course higher than optimal because of the tailwind (which I am still oblivious to) and I'm not quite perfectly lined up with the centerline, so when I touch, the plane veers to one side. Again, I abort the landing. Full throttle, fly the rudder, keep the ball centered, fly out the runway heading, and turn crosswind. By this time, I know that something's not right. While on crosswind, another gust hits and throws the plane sideways. I keep it coordinated, but I have a clue that it might be external. I turn downwind and look down at the airport and see two planes taxiing to the opposite of the runway I expect.
???
I find the windsock, and it instantly tells me the whole story. Feeling like an idiot, I make a gentle left 270. On this turn, I touch the edge of a local rainshower and am briefly wetted. No need to wipe my glasses dry, the prop blast takes care of that for me. Really not wild about this.
I re-enter on base, then turn final. This time, I've gotta get down. The approach stabilizes and I note the new lower groundspeed. Things are falling into place, it's a much better approach than before. Bringing it in, I bring it over the threshold. My flare this time is MUCH better, and when I get a little gust, it's no longer a tailwind, so I'm able to deal with it much easier. I fly the runway heading for a few seconds with the wheels just above the runway, then gently pull back the power. Carefully, I begin a stall and bring the wheels down. Touchdown, the lower ground speed is making a big difference. Driving down the runway with the tail in the air, I pull the throttle to idle.
That's when it gets interesting again.
When I pulled the throttle, I lost some P-factor. Not quite fast enough on my toes, the tail starts to turn one way a little. In a trike, this is a non-issue, and all the planes I've flown before I've been able to manhandle the rudder a bit to fix this, but this is an unfamiliar plane, it's a conventional gear job, and it's super lightweight.
I give it some rudder, but (in what I read later is a classic mistake) overcompensate and swing the tail too far. The tail swings back and keeps going. At this point, nothing I'm doing on the rudder is making a difference. I don't have brakes, so I reach up, pull the magnetos to kill the engine, and brace myself on the frame. I'm still trying to use the rudder to straighten things up, but I'm a passenger. At about 10-15 mph, the plane veers off the runway, at 5 mph, I'm still turning, and after a few seconds, I come to a rest on the grass, facing 180 degrees from the direction I landed.
Aircraft: Undamaged.
Pilot: Uninjured (except for a bruised ego)
Airport: Untowered and oblivious.
I've managed to ground loop a plane w/o brakes, something of an accomplishment, I suppose.
I bring the plane back to the hangar and spend some time thinking about my flight. We check the pitot static system for blockages, find none. No problem, he has some spares.
While we're doing this, I'm thinking about the feel of the plane. Mentally, I make a list of things I like and don't. I'm comfortable in the seat, the ground characteristics are predictable, it maneuvers ok, but.....
The Rotax screaming in my face at 6000rpm is deafening.
The prop blast isn't great, even though doors would attenuate that.
The worst part, though, is how easilly the wind threw it around the sky.
It's soooo lightweight that it has no inertia, it seems. The slightest wind is feels like a huge gust in a Cherokee or Cessna.
The tailwheel stuff I'm not too worried about, I can (and should have before) get training for that, but the engine and basic feel of the plane in the wind are just a bit too much for me. I'm looking for a plane to fly a lot, not just during the 45 minutes each morning when there's no wind.
Finally, I turn to the seller and tell him I'm going to pass on the plane. I offer to pay him any expenses he incurred, but he waves me off. He has another buyer, and he tells me that he doesn't want me to buy it if it's not the right plane. He gives me my money back and we shake hands and part, and I drive another 700 miles back home.
The plane is fine.... for someone else, it's just not what I was looking for. The seller is super honest and a good guy, we'll probably stay in touch (we have other aviation interests in common, and there are no hard feelings).
The hunt goes on...
BTW, Golfer, the lawnmower engine was indeed teh suck. I was willing to give it a shot, but... not my cup of tea.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
"...so I reach up, pull the magnetos to kill the engine, and brace myself on the frame."
:rofl
Awesome story man - I'm lmao!
:aok
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Originally posted by Nash
:rofl
Awesome story man - I'm lmao!
:aok
Ditto.
And the pissed off wasp was classic!
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Followup: While checking the pitot-static system on the ground, the wasp re-appeared and sent me skittering off to safety again. Must have been quite a descent, considering I dropped him off at over 700 feet AGL.
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Chair..Im glad u passed..just read it..
1) WAY LOUD.....One of my first solo'd ..Some a hole was in one of those..I hear some squakwing..."Linsqqsshshh Finsqghshshs..."
I say ..WTF..as im on the downwind going to land....Im looking all over the place now..I kind of hear somone say..."Lincoln Traffic..sqhshshshhs"..
So Now im thinking..theres soem guy in the pattern with me,,,??!!!
Well thsi was probbly 33 hours into my flying carrer....Im abit nervous,...
SO all along im still doing my pre-land checklist..GUMPS check..ect..
Im turning onto final..And I see the Little bastard...hes taxing away in a Ultralight thingy......Its Dusk.,,he has no lights..AND YOU CANT HEAR HIM SAY SHEITE ..THe Wind and his engine Complelty crap his transmissions..
I was pissed...But hoped if the mighty Cessna 152 hit him..Id go rigth thru that suker
NOW GET IN YOUR GARAGE AND GET YOUR GLUE OUT!!
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Why'd you leave out the part where you slipped on your big floppy shoes and red nose, then walked to the crowd control line to make some balloon animals?
:)
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Good story. Glad your still with us.
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so...
Not only did this joker let you take the airplane for a solo spin (a big huge giant no-no until money has changed hands in my book)
He let you fly his tailwheel airplane with zero tailwheel experience.
The result is just about where it should be. Glad you're still here chairboy...and that's a very serious I'm glad you're still with us.
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I paid him for the plane first. It was my insistence, I didn't want to leave him high and dry if anything happened.
I learned a few good lessons, including this one: Just because you can LEGALLY fly a tailwheel ultralight without tailwheel specific endorsement doesn't mean you SHOULD.
I've mapped up some beautiful 'chain of failures' for my own study about decisions that, in hindsight, could have been better, but I'll be damned if I'll let you jackals see 'em! If I do, next time I say "maybe an official US religion isn't a good idea" or "X violates the following constitutional amendments" or something, some joker will trot 'em out and wave 'em around saying "SEE! CHAIRBOY IS FALLIBLE!"
I'd hate to spoil that illusion....
:D
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Well heck chairboy lets look at this situation. You got into an aircraft, flew it, did some low speed and low alt attitude recoveries and landed the plane with the end result that you are healthy and the plane does not require repairs to fly again. Sounds pretty successful to me. Not necessarily smart now, but successful. Now if you don't do the same kind of thing again, you can even claim it as educational. :p
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I'd be more than happy to fly with you in something along the lines of an Aeronca Chief or a Supercub. Take you out on windy days and make you keep one main wheel down for the length of the runway.
Hopefully now you'll see why I'm skeptical of the whole LSA/ultralight thing. You get guys with zero or next to no training flying manned kites with no experience to draw upon.
Having flown a few ultralights I like to think I know a little something.
The Light-Sport is best used as a sanctuary for certificated pilots who want to use their drivers license as a medical. I mean do you really want the same guy who takes his camaro 120mph to walmart to be sharing the same skies as you?
There are going to be some people who take it seriously but with so little training no matter how serious they are won't make up for lack of skill when they paint themselves into a corner.
This isn't a dig but take yourself.
A 100hr private pilot who knows almost enough to kill himself takes the prized grail of LSA airplanes up for a spin. I certainly hope you realize how easy it would have been for the situation to end up very very different.
I've flown with 3000hr pilots with multiple type ratings in a 90kt Chief. They couldn't taxi with any level of smoothness, takeoff was hair raising and forget about landing without several attempts and lots of auctioneer paced instructions being spit out by me. "riiirudder riirudder do i hear riirudder have riiirudder lookin' for lefrudder lefrudder little more lefrudder SOLD!"
After 10 hours or so I'd sign them off to fly the airplane. Included in all this is basically what the FAA says and my own requirements. Wheel landings, 3 point landings, normal/xwind landings. Rejected landings/takeoffs. I do require them to show me with consistancy the ability to hold one wheel on the runway centerline, transition to the other wheel and then back to both mains. At that point they have the coordination and skill required that I can confidently say to the airplane owner that it will come back undamaged.
Now a Pitts...that's a whole new ball game. Two bounces on the mains and then prop meets pavement on the third. Mars can tell you all about it since I have a very modest know-nothing 25ish hours in them.
Aaaaaanyways the tailwheel airplane is something to respect if all you've flown are tricycle gear airplanes...as you've learned. Now don't do it again, damnit.
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Chairboy, up until this point I'd thought of you as a NTSB report waiting to happen. Hopefully this experience has opened your eyes and you'll prove me wrong.
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Chairboy that was a funny write-up but if I was you I would slow down and listen to the experienced ones before they start calling you the DGIT or decide to organize an O'Club crash bingo.
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Chairboy,
Don't listen to the scolding sallys... Back "in the day" (not my day, but you know, BACK THERE in that other day), new pilots would often solo after as few as 3 flights and were considered "pilots" in just a dozen or two. Those guys flew primitive tailwheel (or tailskid) aircraft with no gauges at all, and guess what... Most of them made it. You already have almost as much flight time as many WWII fighter pilots had when they flew their first combat sortie.
So yea take your lessons learned (windsock check on downwind?) and apply them to the rest of your flying career, but don't let the sisters here get you down. You did that "pilot stuff" when you needed to, and that's alright.
:)
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Originally posted by eagl
... Back "in the day" (not my day, but you know, BACK THERE in that other day), new pilots would often solo after as few as 3 flights and were considered "pilots" in just a dozen or two. Those guys flew primitive tailwheel (or tailskid) aircraft with no gauges at all, and guess what... Most of them made it...
not true
those guys are all dead
:noid :noid :noid :noid :noid
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Great story, just like 'I learned about flying from that' in FLYING magazine. But one thing, I'm sure it was Mrs Wasp not Mr. Which makes sense when you think about it. You were messing about with her home, no female likes that human or insect :rofl