Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Yeager on June 25, 2006, 02:57:01 PM
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Back in the old days USSR....err....Russia, would seek out and get viscious retribution against evildoers when its government officials were taken hostage and murdered. Well, its happened again in Iraq. I just wonder if Russia will go after those responsible with the zeal and lust of its former glory days. I hope they do.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/25/iraq.main/index.html
Actually seems pretty stupid for the islamofacists to put Russia and US on same page. But then again, we arent dealing with folks that have much going on in the critical thinking dept.
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Originally posted by Yeager
Actually seems pretty stupid for the islamofacists to put Russia and US on same page.
Chechnya.
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I don't think Russia has enough intelligence in that country at this moment to properly retaliate.
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Chechnya.
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Correct, I meant in Iraq.
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Russia has been at war with 'islamic terror' longer then the US. In fact many were complaining about the tactics employed by Russia in pursuit of victory in Chechnya. One of those voices complaining was the US government.
With Russian school children being blown up in thier schools, theater goers being taken hostage in Moscow, car / truck bombs and air hijackings I don't think that 4 dead diplomats in Iraq will force Russia to come to some different conclusion / repsonse to the situation. These 4 weren't the first Russians to die in Iraq anyway...
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Iraq does not have borders to the Russkies.
The others border them and/or were former USSR.
Whether it makes a difference or not don't know.:noid
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Many people here think that Zarqawists are sponsored by the US and are a tool in American hands... I first heard this opinion from a Russian Federation Moslim leader, he mentioned their previous actions against Arabic and Moslim countries... But at the same time the guy said that a demand to "release all Moslim brothers from Russian prisons" is quite reasonable because Moslims are opressed here. :rolleyes:
Anyway I'd like to see our Alfa finding the bastards and killing them with bayonets, like pigs. I also wish US sending some special forces to Chechnya to cleanse known Al-Quaeda links. At least in ths case both sides will probably refrain from idiotic accusations and do the job.
BTW, in Soviet times USSR seldomly did anything about Soviet citizens held for ransom or killed in third-world countries. Even Soviet scienticts "disappeared" in the US were out of attention. :(
Angus, USSR never had borders with Iraq. Only with Turkey and Iran. During WWII Soviet and British troops occupied Iran, but I think that then Iraqi border was in British zone.
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IIP :o
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wait a minute... is he saying that the US kidnapped soviet citizens? We made the work for us?
No wonder they had to have guards on citizens who visited here otherwise we would drag them off and take them away from the workers paradise.
lazs
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Originally posted by Boroda
Anyway I'd like to see our Alfa finding the bastards and killing them with bayonets, like pigs. I also wish US sending some special forces to Chechnya to cleanse known Al-Quaeda links. At least in ths case both sides will probably refrain from idiotic accusations and do the job.
I agree. It's time for a new elite unit, made up of US and Russian special forces. You could call them... hmm... Rainbow!
Seriously, Clancy's idea was ahead of its time. What better way to insure cooperation?
In the 1980's, Time magazine ran a report about how the Spetsnaz used to round up insurgents in Afghanistan. They would throw them down the wells of the towns. They would then douse them with some Willy Peter. It had the double effect of killing the insurgents horribly AND ruining the town's water supply to let the village know that's what happens when you harbor them.
We need some of that creative thinking now.
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we have too many hand wringers with access to tv cameras over here to ever do the job properly ...
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Originally posted by lazs2
wait a minute... is he saying that the US kidnapped soviet citizens? We made the work for us?
No wonder they had to have guards on citizens who visited here otherwise we would drag them off and take them away from the workers paradise.
lazs
yup. nobody ever defected from mother russia. brighton beach is our 'guantanamo bay' facility for russian spies.
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Originally posted by lazs2
wait a minute... is he saying that the US kidnapped soviet citizens? We made the work for us?
No wonder they had to have guards on citizens who visited here otherwise we would drag them off and take them away from the workers paradise.
The story about a Soviet scientist who disappeared abroad (he worked in a group that invented a "nuclear winter" concept) is well-known. I did some search and understood that I was mistaken, he went to a conference in Spain. He simply disappeared and didn't make any propaganda statements, unlike other defectors. Local police made an investigation and didn't find anything. Maybe it was an accident. Alexandrov had a family that he really loved, and he disappeared only a few weeks before he had to defend a thesis for a Doctor of Science degree. It still remains a mystery :(
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Originally posted by Hangtime
yup. nobody ever defected from mother russia. brighton beach is our 'guantanamo bay' facility for russian spies.
A final scene edited off "From Russia with love": a ciphered message to KGB, "Infiltration successfull. Tatiana Romanova." :D
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ROFL!...
the line was 'insertion successful'.
I'm gonna start callin you 'Ensign Checkov'.
;)
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Originally posted by Hangtime
ROFL!...
the line was 'insertion successful'.
I'm gonna start callin you 'Ensign Checkov'.
;)
It's a joke from a 1984 Soviet TV series "TASS is authorised to state...", Soviet journalist tells it to a CIA resident in some African country ;)
I still didn't see any ST episodes with michman Chekov, only saw modern ones and some from the first season :(
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5118702.stm
To paraphrase (some words changed to remove explicit content)
"Teh Russian foreign ministry said teh "terrorists" responsible were "inhuman, without honour, conscience or religion".
It urged teh Iraqi authorities and teh US-led coalition forces to find and punish teh perpetrators."
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Originally posted by Hangtime
yup. nobody ever defected from mother russia. brighton beach is our 'guantanamo bay' facility for russian spies.
A friend of mine has one of those mail order Russian brides, a real cute one named Olga. Her greatest thrill was when he took her shopping for clothes. She excitedly was showing me what he had bought for her, then I took her aside and explained what the Goodwill was......maybe I should'nt have done that.
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http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7724548452351649714&q=russian
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Originally posted by Dos Equis
In the 1980's, Time magazine ran a report about how the Spetsnaz used to round up insurgents in Afghanistan. They would throw them down the wells of the towns. They would then douse them with some Willy Peter. It had the double effect of killing the insurgents horribly AND ruining the town's water supply to let the village know that's what happens when you harbor them.
We need some of that creative thinking now.
Yep, it's tactics like this that won the Afghani war for the Russians. Yes sir, they really got that country ship shape in nothing flat. Even now, on a warm summer night, between the crackling sound of gunfire, you can still hear the grateful Afghanistan populace sing songs of thankfulness to their great benevolent Russian fathers.
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Originally posted by Dos Equis
I agree. It's time for a new elite unit, made up of US and Russian special forces. You could call them... hmm... Rainbow!
It will be impossible. There is very big difference in how we and you are fighting. If our squad will be blocked, it will fight till the end of gauges and then will go and fight with bayonets. Your guys will ask for help from artillery and evacution helicopters. It's a fact. I know history of Vietnam war. And I found there many situations when Delta interrupted missions and asked for evaco.
But this is not the only reason. Another one - big difference in tactics. Your tactics is based on massive support. Artillery strike on call, CAS and etc. Our tactics is to be able to fight without any support. Or with limited one.
Really I can't imagine US soldier on the war without refregerater with coca-cola and without bathroom.
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Originally posted by Estel
It will be impossible. There is very big difference in how we and you are fighting. If our squad will be blocked, it will fight till the end of gauges and then will go and fight with bayonets. Your guys will ask for help from artillery and evacution helicopters. It's a fact. I know history of Vietnam war. And I found there many situations when Delta interrupted missions and asked for evaco.
But this is not the only reason. Another one - big difference in tactics. Your tactics is based on massive support. Artillery strike on call, CAS and etc. Our tactics is to be able to fight without any support. Or with limited one.
Really I can't imagine US soldier on the war without refregerater with coca-cola and without bathroom.
Teh Russi4n C0mmandos Ar3 teh Pwnage bEST EVAR!!
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I remember being truly amazed when it finally became clear that the USSR was losing its War in Afganistan. At the time I couldnt understand it, I mean here was this great superpower, ICBMs, Nuclear submarines, best tanks, best planes, best everything...and these cave dwelling throwbacks were defeating them on the field of battle.....
of course the cavers were receiving a certain amount of.........shall we say, covert support :huh
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Originally posted by Yeager
I remember being truly amazed when it finally became clear that the USSR was losing its War in Afganistan. At the time I couldnt understand it, I mean here was this great superpower, ICBMs, Nuclear submarines, best tanks, best planes, best everything...and these cave dwelling throwbacks were defeating them on the field of battle.....
of course the cavers were receiving a certain amount of.........shall we say, covert support :huh
USSR didn't "lose" an Afghan war. We withdrew after Gorby's decision. So now we have the same war in former Central-Asian Soviet Republics.
As I said many times - sending troops to Afghanistan was a stupidity, and withdrawing in a way it was done was a crime. Ask Estel about what was going on there...
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Im sure there are aspects to it that I do not undersand......I suppose it was a war that could have been won militarily, but was lost politically.
Hmmm....sounds familiar :cry
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Originally posted by Estel
Really I can't imagine US soldier on the war without refregerater with coca-cola and without bathroom.
That's a fairly scathing indictment of the US Special Forces. My guess is that they operate just as well without CnC support as anything the Russians have. I'm not qualified to do a comparative analysis, but there are plenty of people in Jane's and other think tanks that have papers on that sort of thing.
As for no organization that fights terror at the highest levels - all we can hope is that the terror orgnaizations stay fragmented like the counter terror organizations are.
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Originally posted by ChickenHawk
Yep, it's tactics like this that won the Afghani war for the Russians. Yes sir, they really got that country ship shape in nothing flat. Even now, on a warm summer night, between the crackling sound of gunfire, you can still hear the grateful Afghanistan populace sing songs of thankfulness to their great benevolent Russian fathers.
You can ask Estel and others, but I don't think the Russians lost the war because of their anti-insurgent tactics. Nor did they have Predator drones, sat recon and the CnC that the US military does.
Winning hearts and minds only to have it backfire when a few Marines get pissed after an IED incident, this isn't working. The Sunnis and Shi'tes want at each other. Only the American occupation keeps them from going at it. Time to retreat to the oil fields and Basra and let them have at it.
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I hope you understand that the situation there in late-80s was much more under control then what you guys have in Iraq now. At least noone kidnapped and killed US diplomats. And Afghanistan had a legitimate government that only got some support from USSR. And Afghanistan wasn't occupied.
Sorry to say this - but what US govt does in recent years looks absolutely insane :( If only you didn't bomb Yugoslavia - RF probably could provide all possible support in Iraq, but that 1999 aggression was tooo much. Now occupants are responsible for all such accidents with diplomats, so it goes.
Do you have such an idiomatic expression as "stepping on a rake"?
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Originally posted by Boroda
Do you have such an idiomatic expression as "stepping on a rake"?
What's a rake?
If you're talking about lawn-care equipment, we prefer John Deere tractors and migrant laborers.
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Originally posted by Dos Equis
Winning hearts and minds only to have it backfire when a few Marines get pissed after an IED incident, this isn't working.
I couldn't agree more that this isn't working. But if you kill off an entire village by poisoning their water, you can pretty much forget taking the high road and you might as well just call yourself a terrorist state. Because that's what it is, terrorism.
Originally posted by Dos Equis
The Sunnis and Shi'tes want at each other. Only the American occupation keeps them from going at it. Time to retreat to the oil fields and Basra and let them have at it.
On this we agree.
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Few statements made here makes me wonder...
If the russians by some accounts gave us bad intel....sold Iraq stuff when they weren't supposed to...don't really back the war at all.....and yet they make statements to the US to please find them and kill them??
IF I had the power...I would very quietly say...............Huh NO !!!!
Find em on your own...have a nice day.
Did I read this thread right in hearing that ?
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Originally posted by Neubob
What's a rake?
"Rake" = "grabli". Try stepping on it and you'll get a bang in a forehead. A sane man never steps on one rake twice. Wise men never step on a rake that someone already stepped on. IMHO US now is perfecting in rake-racing. :(
Originally posted by Neubob
If you're talking about lawn-care equipment, we prefer John Deere tractors and migrant laborers.
I don't know about a tractor brand, but migrant labour is quite popular at Muscovite's "dachas". If you want to ruin your countryhouse - feel free to invite a brigade of Moldavian workers. :) My Father sold his "dacha" about 10 years ago, so now I excersice at my friends. So far the achievement was building a firewood shelter for 5 cubic meters and a stand for a 1 cubic meter water canister 3 meters high in one day. Both things still stand. It was 5 years ago. I also remember digging a bomb-shelter style cellar ("pogreb"), building a terrace so the wooden house built in XVIII century won't collapse and othe heroic deeds performed after a third glass.
I had a motor-electrical-equipment store near my subway station (Leninskiy prospekt, where I work), and they had a Motorized Lawnmover on display as an advertisement. What amazed me was that it had a headlight. Incredible. If you want to cut the grass at night - voila! :D
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Originally posted by ChickenHawk
I couldn't agree more that this isn't working. But if you kill off an entire village by poisoning their water, you can pretty much forget taking the high road and you might as well just call yourself a terrorist state. Because that's what it is, terrorism.
1) Terrorism is an attempt to force someone to perform as you wish by scaring him. (sorry for a lame translation from Russian). Killing some people living in a certain location isn't terrorism. It's a war crime. So far no Soviet officers were found guilty by international courts. And we didn't refrain from sending our servicemen to such courts as US did. Do you remember anything like Abu Graib from Afghanistan 1979-89?
2) I doubt that Soviet Army did such things in Afghanistan. It's hard to believe. In 1986 I heard Voice of America seriously reporting Soviet Army using poisonous gases in Afghanistan, and it was a blatant lie. There was absolutely no chance that USSR could ever use WMD in a local conflict.
3) VoA also reported Soviet Army spreading toys filled with explosives so Afghani kids will blow themselves up. I have several friends who fought there and they say they saw such explosive toys definetly made outside USSR. It's no problem telling if the toy was made here or "there" for a person who spent his childhood in USSR.
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Originally posted by Boroda
1) Terrorism is an attempt to force someone to perform as you wish by scaring him. (sorry for a lame translation from Russian).
Actually your English is quite good.
I think the village down the road would be pretty scared.
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Originally posted by RedTop
Few statements made here makes me wonder...
If the russians by some accounts gave us bad intel....sold Iraq stuff when they weren't supposed to...don't really back the war at all.....and yet they make statements to the US to please find them and kill them??
IF I had the power...I would very quietly say...............Huh NO !!!!
US sold some veeery serious stuf to Iraq when USSR abandoned all contracts with an aggressor, I mean 1980-85.
Do you really think that if USSR... er, RF, "backed the war" you could win the way you did? So far one whisper from Kremlin made you guys scrap your launch facilities in Turkey in 35 hours instead of 72, and so on. Providing aircraft defence for Vietnam was real fun, and there was absolutely nothing US could do about it. Should I continue?
You, not us, occupy a souverign country, caging it's [formally] democratically elected leader, unable to restore law and order on occupied territory. So athetically unable that you can't do anything about diplomatic representatives being murdered under your responsibility. It's an utter failure. Do something, please, if you can. If you can't - then admit that you criminaly invaded a country and provide environment for international terrorism.
I am angry. Please, think about it. All Russians that have a radio or TV and know about this sad accident demand a revenge. It's YOUR responsibilty.
Originally posted by RedTop
Find em on your own...have a nice day.
Did I read this thread right in hearing that ?
Are you serious? Do you really want Russian Army to kick occupants out of Iraq and perform our own justice?! No way. You started this mess, so it's up to you. If Haliburton gets Soviet/Russian contracts in Iraq after InterEnergoService employees got kidnapped back in 2003 - stop complaining about "Russian barbarians". Do something! You rule there, not us. We don't want to have common business with occupants on occupied land. So far we may easily find people guilty for this situation, but I doubt that Alfa will storm the White House. They definetly can, but it's... inappropriate behaviour.
Sorry for being impolite.
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Originally posted by Boroda
BTW, in Soviet times USSR seldomly did anything about Soviet citizens held for ransom or killed in third-world countries. Even Soviet scienticts "disappeared" in the US were out of attention. :(
I guess Lebenon was the acception.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Estel
Your guys will ask for help from artillery and evacution helicopters. It's a fact. I know history of Vietnam war. And I found there many situations when Delta interrupted missions and asked for evaco.
Although elite units of spetsnaz received training in both styles of combat, in Afgan they used, just as Delta, tactic of being dropped behind enemy lines, making ambush and retreating on a chopper. There is nothing wrong with tactics that work well.
Source: http://www.agentura.ru/library/spetsnaz50/
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Originally posted by Boroda
IAnd Afghanistan wasn't occupied.
That's because the Soviet troops were too afraid to leave their bases.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by ChickenHawk
Actually your English is quite good.
Thanks.
Originally posted by ChickenHawk
I think the village down the road would be pretty scared.
During Caucasian War 1818-68 standard tactics that lead to victory was burning a mountain village, killing everyone except 3-4 "freedom fighters" who were sent to neighbouring villages. Neighbours usually met Russian troops with bread and salt, because they got warned that a death of a single Russian soldier was a reason for such measures. It took 30 years to adopt such tactics, before that Russians thought too much about "human rights" and other crap, as if they were fighting in Europe, like the occupation of France in 1814-1818.
Please don't call me "inhuman murderer" and "fascist". Just remember what happened to Indians in the US at the same time, while Chechens and other "freedom fighters" got national autonomys and ruled their land under Russian Empire and USSR, and they still so in Russian Federation. Just remember that imam Shamil lived in Kaluga on Russian govt money, his sons were raised together with Russian aristocracy children and Imperial govt payed for his "haj" where he died in Mecca.
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Originally posted by Russian
Although elite units of spetsnaz received training in both styles of combat, in Afgan they used, just as Delta, tactic of being dropped behind enemy lines, making ambush and retreating on a chopper. There is nothing wrong with tactics that work well.
Source: http://www.agentura.ru/library/spetsnaz50/
Estel flew on such missions in mid-90s from Tajikistan. JFYI ;) When I first met him in 1997 he had his face still severely burnt by mountain sun...
I suppose he knows what he speaks about.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
That's because the Soviet troops were too afraid to leave their bases.
Really?!
Is it possible for American soldiers in Kabul to run away from a base unarmed just to go to the market to buy some stuff?!
Russians/Soviets could walk in Kabul and other places without being afraid of kidnapping or such things. "Shuravi" (Soviet) is still a respected name there.
Soviets felt much more free and easy in Afghanistan then Americans seem to feel now in Iraq. And it was not about terror, but about trade and understanding that everyone does their job.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Estel flew on such missions in mid-90s from Tajikistan. JFYI ;) When I first met him in 1997 he had his face still severely burnt by mountain sun...
I suppose he knows what he speaks about.
If he substitutes ‘marines’ for Delta, then that statement will be correct. That’s the only part I disagree on.
Was he part of spetnaz or disantniki?
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Originally posted by Russian
If he substitutes ‘marines’ for Delta, then that statement will be correct. That’s the only part I disagree on.
Was he part of spetnaz or disantniki?
He was a helicopter pilot.
We have all kinds of interesting people in Russian WBFH crowd... I hope Estel will forgive me :(
When I was in a hospital a year ago - in my room I had old men who have been to Cuba 1962, Hungary 1956, Chechoslovakia 1968 and one man who was in nazi concentration camp with his Mother when he was 3 years old...
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Go get 'em President Putin.
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Putin orders forces to destroy hostage killers
Russian special services told to strike militants who killed 4 workers in Iraq
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13163804/
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Boroda...
:rofl
Afghanistan wasn't occupied...
:lol
Thanks for the laugh, that one's gonna keep me entertained on a long drive today.
:aok
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Originally posted by Russian
Although elite units of spetsnaz received training in both styles of combat, in Afgan they used, just as Delta, tactic of being dropped behind enemy lines, making ambush and retreating on a chopper.
If we are talking about little (up to 10 members) group with specific target then yes. But if special group incorporated in big army operation then no.
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Originally posted by Dos Equis
I agree. It's time for a new elite unit, made up of US and Russian special forces. You could call them... hmm... Rainbow!
We've already done that, don't you remember the documentary when the US / USSR teamed up to target that incoming asteroid?
Some of you have NO clue....
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Originally posted by Stang
Boroda...
:rofl
Afghanistan wasn't occupied...
:lol
Thanks for the laugh, that one's gonna keep me entertained on a long drive today.
:aok
You mean that it was occupied, it's army defeated, it's legitimate democratically elected government killed or caged and occupational administration was working there?!
Technically an "invasion" in Afghanistan was absolutely, 100% legal and all the propaganda screaming, including the boycott of the Moscow Olympics and other silly things like cancelling a brilliant "Unknown War" documentary on American TV was absolutely inadequate.
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Anybody heard anything more on this? I keep hoping to see some story about Russian special forces depositing the heads of terrorists in a town square somewhere, or kidnapping the families of suspected terrorists and sending their fingers out in the mail. Something shocking. Something "old school". Something that says "Russia is back, dont **** with us."
Only been a week, I know, but I expected to hear SOMETHING by now.
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Originally posted by Yeager
Im sure there are aspects to it that I do not undersand......I suppose it was a war that could have been won militarily, but was lost politically.
Hmmm....sounds familiar :cry
Its easier to understand if you classify it properly. The USSR defeated the Afgan militarily but lost in its bid to occupy the country. Just like the US defeated saddams army militarily but will lose in its bid to occupy iraq. Wars are easy to win for the mighty US and former USSR, its the occupation that is so difficult.
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Originally posted by WhiteHawk
Its easier to understand if you classify it properly. The USSR defeated the Afgan militarily but lost in its bid to occupy the country. Just like the US defeated saddams army militarily but will lose in its bid to occupy iraq. Wars are easy to win for the mighty US and former USSR, its the occupation that is so difficult.
Not exactly true. USSR couldn't defeat Afghani miltary because both Soviet Army and local government forces fought together on one side.
There was no occupation technically, there was no Soviet administration installed, even temporarily.
Even with US, China and Iran supporting terrorists - most of the country was under control of government forces and/or Soviet Army.
The total number of forces involved in operations in Afganistan was sometimes two times smaller then current US presence in Iraq. Afghanistan is about two times bigger then Iraq, and has two times more population, plus you can compare the terrain. And noone was kidnapping foreign diplomats in Afghanistan in 80-89.
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Anybody heard anything more on this? I keep hoping to see some story about Russian special forces depositing the heads of terrorists in a town square somewhere, or kidnapping the families of suspected terrorists and sending their fingers out in the mail. Something shocking. Something "old school". Something that says "Russia is back, dont **** with us."
Only been a week, I know, but I expected to hear SOMETHING by now.
So far the only things done are:
1) Comrade Putin ordered the defence minister to "destroy" persons involved in kidnapping and murder.
2) Our beloved legislators from Federal Assembly (State Duma and Federation Counsil) granted our president the right to use military force outside Russian Federation to fight terrorists and protect Russian citizens without taking permission from parliament.
I don't think that any "special operations" will be successfull in a country controlled by occupational forces. So all this ritual dances are no more then shaking the air :(
But I think that terrorists made a big mistake killing one of the diplomats who was a Tatar and truely religious Moslim.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Not exactly true. USSR couldn't defeat Afghani miltary because both Soviet Army and local government forces fought together on one side.
There was no occupation technically, there was no Soviet administration installed, even temporarily.
Even with US, China and Iran supporting terrorists - most of the country was under control of government forces and/or Soviet Army.
The total number of forces involved in operations in Afganistan was sometimes two times smaller then current US presence in Iraq. Afghanistan is about two times bigger then Iraq, and has two times more population, plus you can compare the terrain. And noone was kidnapping foreign diplomats in Afghanistan in 80-89.
Dude...
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Originally posted by Suave
Dude...
???
Do you mean that I said something not true?