Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Octavius on June 25, 2006, 06:54:48 PM
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saweet! (http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/articles/military_photos_200661625252.asp)
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nice!
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Thats nothing.
I've had NIKIS and dweebfires do that to me comming right off the runway in the MA LOL
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Cant wait for the 07 or 08 F-22 East and West Coast demo teams hitting the airshow circuit...I saw the F-22 at Andrews JSOH last month and I LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVED! Transient aircraft though, I wish I could have seen that bad boy t/o
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Ya think the Thunderbirds will ever use it for shows? I know there are very few of them but think of the new show maneuvers. :O
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Originally posted by Maverick
Ya think the Thunderbirds will ever use it for shows? I know there are very few of them but think of the new show maneuvers. :O
It's a rather expensive aircraft to be doing demonstrations with, IMHO.
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I was watching "A Year With The Blue Angels" yesterday on The Military Channel and was surprised to learn the Blues use nothing but fleet "retirees" for thier purposes. The Blues use these aircraft, getting the very last use out of them, and then the planes are sent into mothballs, scrapped, or stuck on a pole for public viewing.
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Well the mission of the thunderbirds is for recruiting purposes.....I doubt they will use the F-22 though, way to expensive...I believe the blue angels F-18's are some of the oldest fleet F/A-18's that were spared retirement and went to the BA...I heard somewhere that the F-16's used by the T-birds were brand new from the factory, and never combat operational? I think were gonna see the F-16's with the Air Force for atleast another 6-10 years....then maybe JSF?
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Originally posted by DiabloTX
I was watching "A Year With The Blue Angels" yesterday on The Military Channel and was surprised to learn the Blues use nothing but fleet "retirees" for thier purposes. The Blues use these aircraft, getting the very last use out of them, and then the planes are sent into mothballs, scrapped, or stuck on a pole for public viewing.
Exactly, you'll notice that the Blue Angels are not flying Super Hornets.
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The superhornets do demonstrations, though. It's just that the blue angels don't use them.
The military will continue to show the public exactly what they are paying for... though they won't necessarily tell them just how much they're paying. It makes the pill go down easier.
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Originally posted by Mini D
The superhornets do demonstrations, though. It's just that the blue angels don't use them.
True enough, but those demonstrations aren't nearly as dangerous as what the Blue Angels do.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Exactly, you'll notice that the Blue Angels are not flying Super Hornets.
I had assumed that they were new planes as anal as the Navy is about spit 'n' shine appearances. But, what they do with using the retirees makes sense.
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Originally posted by DiabloTX
I had assumed that they were new planes as anal as the Navy is about spit 'n' shine appearances. But, what they do with using the retirees makes sense.
Paint does wonders. :)
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Originally posted by Sandman
True enough, but those demonstrations aren't nearly as dangerous as what the Blue Angels do.
? I don't think you've been to many air shows recently.
The solo demonstrations have always been my favorite. The blue angels and t-birds do some decent formation flying and it's pretty cool, but the solo guys do the impressive stuff. F-15s with their gear up and staying at about 15 feet until mid field when they go verticle at about 300 mph. Harriers landing nose to nose then turning and taxiing in side by side at 50 feet. Whatever.
I imagine the shows are going to be fly-bys for a while, but eventually they have to show off some of the features... especially the ported exhaust. That looks like the main point of that demonstration. That... and I'm curious if he was using afterburner for that climb.
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Here's our fly by in Van Nuys a few weeks ago...nice quiet plane.
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c352/diamondshark/Airshow%2006/f-22.jpg)
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Originally posted by Mini D
? I don't think you've been to many air shows recently.
I've seen enough. The single plane stuff is all well within the performance envelope. Otherwise, they wouldn't be allowed to do it.
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I may be wrong, it has been proven before, but I THINK flying formation 18 inches apart between planes is a little more dangerous than showing the performance envelope of a single plane within airshow guidelines. I don't know, maybe it's just me. Whatever.
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Originally posted by DiabloTX
I may be wrong, it has been proven before, but I THINK flying formation 18 inches apart between planes is a little more dangerous than showing the performance envelope of a single plane within airshow guidelines. I don't know, maybe it's just me. Whatever.
It's not just you. ;)
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Hmmm... never seen the blue angels ride the sonic boom the length of the runway before.
Formation flying is OK.. but it doesn't show of the planes. The solos show off the plane's features. Even the T-Birds and Blue Angels do the near stall high AOA fly-by-wire demonstration solo. Every solo act I've seen beats the living snot out of any solo bit the blue angels or t-birds do.
Of course... the best demonstrations are the empty cargo planes. Especially the C-17. The empty bombers can be fun too as long as they're not letting the squadron commander fly.
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Originally posted by Mini D
Hmmm... never seen the blue angels ride the sonic boom the length of the runway before.
I haven't seen a supersonic pass since I was at sea. Nowadays, it seems that the military is far too worried about braking things and complaints to the public affairs office. If you're someplace where planes are still allowed to do a low supersonic pass, savor it.
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It's not supersonic... it's "near supersonic". Portions of the plane have supersonic airflow and it creates the popping vapor bubbles. I've seen this at every civil and military airshow I've been at for the last 5 years.
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This is kinda silly.
The military is going to do demonstrations for someone with this aircraft. They have to. Either they'll do it at airshows or they'll just do it at the factory. Either way, it's going to happen no matter how much the plane costs. Actually, the cost will make it absolutely required.
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Originally posted by Sandman
I haven't seen a sonic boom since I was at sea.
I've never seen a sonic boom at all... of course I've never heard a lightning flash either.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
I've never seen a sonic boom at all... of course I've never heard a lightning flash either.
Edited for grammar, you... you... English Nazi Bastard. :D
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Originally posted by Mini D
This is kinda silly.
The military is going to do demonstrations for someone with this aircraft. They have to. Either they'll do it at airshows or they'll just do it at the factory. Either way, it's going to happen no matter how much the plane costs. Actually, the cost will make it absolutely required.
Not arguing that at all. The military just doesn't use the newest and most expensive aircraft for demonstration teams. It's too dangerous.
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Originally posted by Mini D
That... and I'm curious if he was using afterburner for that climb.
He was. you could see them lit as he dropped the nose and hear the telltale 'crackle' as he went by the camera into the climb.
it's likely he was fully fueled too...mighty impressive for a low speed pull up like that just after rotations. I've seen F-15's do 'quick climbs' and that involves accelerating to the end of whatever runway they're using and then pitching up. He rotated into the vertical...very very impressive.
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I haven't seen a supersonic pass since I was at sea.
I've never seen a supersonic pass, just the ones where they are just under Mach 1 and you cant hear them coming until they are almost on top of you. :)
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Originally posted by Elfie
I've never seen a supersonic pass, just the ones where they are just under Mach 1 and you cant hear them coming until they are almost on top of you. :)
On a supersonic pass, you don't hear it until they're past you and the shock wave slaps you right in the face hard enough to sting. It's amazing.
When I was a kid, I can recall seeing the Thunderbirds do a supersonic pass at Castle Air Force Base. They were flying Phantoms then.
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A few years back an F-16 did a SS pass 200' off the runway at Reno. The sound was a brutal crack and I would be surprized if a few windshields did not suffer.
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Originally posted by Sandman
On a supersonic pass, you don't hear it until they're past you and the shock wave slaps you right in the face hard enough to sting. It's amazing.
When I was a kid, I can recall seeing the Thunderbirds do a supersonic pass at Castle Air Force Base. They were flying Phantoms then.
When the jets are just barely under Mach 1, you dont hear them, but you can see them coming, the roar of the engines hits you just before they pass you. That was amazing as well. It's kind of eerie (sp?) seeing a jet coming toward you, but you cant hear it. I do wish I could have witnessed one supersonic pass. :)
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I've experienced a dozen or so. It never gets old.
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Flying the diamond with the blue's or t-birds is without a doubt 10x's harder than flying a 1 ship demo...Hands down without question in my opinion...
I think its awesome to see bombers and cargo planes fly at airshows...B-1 is the greatest demo ever...Ofcourse fluff'n al qaeda had to mess with us, and its nearly impossible to find a b-1 demo in the US since the start of the war on terrorism...I believe theres only 50 or so operational, and most are deployed fighting the war.... I think I like the C-5 demo slightly better than the C-17...C-5 is just soooooooooooo big! I also like the engine noise...big fans =)....
I am yet to see one but I hear a "factory demo" is like no other...Especially the F-16s...Apparantly they do not have to adhere to AF mininums...if anyone has seen a factory demo please comment on it, i'd love to hear what really stood out
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If you like engine noise, you should hear an F-111 take off. You can *feel* it from a mile away, literally.
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I think the noisest aircraft I've heard on takeoff was an A-6. Things just rattled everything. On the Vinson, the CIC was just inboard and directly beneath Cat 3. Damn A-6s used to shake the dust loose.
On the other hand, standing close to an F-14 while it's in full AB on the cat is a really odd feeling. You can feel your internal organs vibrate. It's just bizarre.
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On the other hand, standing close to an F-14 while it's in full AB on the cat is a really odd feeling. You can feel your internal organs vibrate. It's just bizarre.
I imagine thats probably what its like when an F-111 takes off also, I just wasnt as close to them as you were. I only saw the F-111's at Nellis AFB while there for Red Flag exercises. Our parking spots on the flight line were about a mile or so from the end of the runway.
The F-111's were loud enough on take off a mile away that I put on ear protection.
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Quite possibly the noisiest aircraft ever built... MD 88B supersonic propeller development a/c: legend had it you could hear it during run-up from 20 miles away.
(http://www.boeing.com/history/mdc/graphics/histlarg/hist059b.jpg)
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nice site, thanks for posting that Octavius. the only sonic boom pass I've experienced was while underweigh north of rosie roads PR in the caribbean while performing escort duties for the sara or the rosie I don't recall which. the fly by was performed by a brace of F14As from VF84. I had just come off of 0400-0800 watch on the electrical switchboard in Bravo 4 and went out to the fantail for a smoke and a cup of joe before turning to. I was sitting on a cap when in the horizon I see two specks growing ever larger. they passed about a 100 meters just astern and a second later BOOM. I had my hearing protection still around my neck. when I identified them I quickly put them on. talk about rocking your world. what I would give today to have had a good camera ready.
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Holden, I think they performed some similar tests with a modified F-84 as well.
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fun fact:
"The US Congress is poised to lift a ban of almost nine years on export sales of the F-22A Raptor aircraft following a vote to lift the ban in the US House of Representatives on 20 June."
http://www.janes.com/defence/air_forces/news/jdw/jdw060626_1_n.shtml
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Nilsen
Oh teh noes...
:(
Why can't they lift the ban on enforcing immigration and legal employment laws instead?
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Originally posted by eagl
Nilsen
Oh teh noes...
:(
Why can't they lift the ban on enforcing immigration and legal employment laws instead?
Because "secretly" they want cheap labour for their businesses and the money from exports of the f22 (they prolly own shares in LM)
was that :noid enough?
:D
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Originally posted by Sandman
Not arguing that at all. The military just doesn't use the newest and most expensive aircraft for demonstration teams. It's too dangerous.
Ummmm... yes the do. They have to. They don't go 2 years being too afraid to test the capabilities of the aircraft out. They have to test them before they're even delivered. And I guarantee virtually every senator is going to want to see what all the money is for. DOH! Just saw "teams". I believe I've said solo from the start. Just what were you arguing about?
Originally posted by Elfie
I imagine thats probably what its like when an F-111 takes off also, I just wasnt as close to them as you were. I only saw the F-111's at Nellis AFB while there for Red Flag exercises. Our parking spots on the flight line were about a mile or so from the end of the runway.
The F-111's were loud enough on take off a mile away that I put on ear protection.
I worked 3 years in a shack about 1/4 mile from EOR at Mt. Home AFB when they had F-111A aircraft. They were pretty loud, but then so where the F-4s. The planes really beat them for noise were the bombers (B1, B-52) and the KC-135 which was, hands down, the loudest aircraft in the arsenal. They had just started replacing the water injected engines when I got out of the service that made a drastic improvement in it's noise level. The older stuff was all louder too. We'd get some of the old fighters/bombers in once in a while.
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P.S. I don't mean to imply one type of flying is more/less dangerous. The Blue Angels and T-Birds shows are all about formation flying. They show off the team, not the aircraft. The solo demonstrations are about showing off the aircraft. They are, in my oppinion, more exciting as a result. I've been to more than a few airshows where the crowd started leaving midway through the "grand finale" t-birds or blue angels show. The harrier, F-15 and stunt plane demo put them to shame.
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I worked 3 years in a shack about 1/4 mile from EOR at Mt. Home AFB when they had F-111A aircraft. They were pretty loud, but then so where the F-4s. The planes really beat them for noise were the bombers (B1, B-52) and the KC-135 which was, hands down, the loudest aircraft in the arsenal. They had just started replacing the water injected engines when I got out of the service that made a drastic improvement in it's noise level. The older stuff was all louder too. We'd get some of the old fighters/bombers in once in a while.
I worked F-4E's at Seymour Johnson AFB in NC for almost 2 years. During that time I was on EOR (End of Runway) duties several times. While they were loud, they weren't nearly as loud as the F-111's. You couldnt *feel* the sound from the Phantoms like you could with the F-111's.
In addition to the 3 squadrons of Phantoms assigned to the base, we also had a squadron of B-52's and another of KC-135 tankers. The bombers and tankers were assigned alert duty. There were 4 B-52's loaded with live nukes and 4 tankers on alert 24/7/365. None of the bombers or tankers flew very often so I dont really recall their noise levels and I certainly didnt get the same impression of *feeling* the sound like I did with the F-111's. If I had, I'm sure I would recall that.
Those F-111's taking off is something I still remember quite vividly and I doubt I will ever be able to forget it.
Another thing I will never forget is watching Phantoms taking off at Elemendorf AFB in afterburner. They would literally set the runway on fire with their angled exhaust. Well, they set the de-icing chemicals on the runway on fire but the impression was that the runway itself was on fire. During the low light conditions of a 9am takeoff in the middle of an Alaskan winter, watching the *runway burn* was quite an impressive sight. :)
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I'll be fixing those purty F-22s in a few months time. Im setting a goal for myself to work on the ground crew of the Blue Angels.
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Originally posted by Mini D
Ummmm... yes the do. They have to. They don't go 2 years being too afraid to test the capabilities of the aircraft out. They have to test them before they're even delivered. And I guarantee virtually every senator is going to want to see what all the money is for. DOH! Just saw "teams". I believe I've said solo from the start. Just what were you arguing about?
I highly doubt senators are waiting for airshows to see demonstrations of aircraft capabilities. There's a reason why we have test ranges. The performance capabilities are well known well before an aircraft is allowed to perform in front of a public audience. The pilots flying these single aircraft performances are not demonstration pilots. They are regular pilots in regular fleet assigned aircraft performing maneuvers that are all well within NATOPS guidelines.
And within the context of Mavericks initial question and my response, we were speaking of demonstration teams from the start.
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Sandman at Elemendorf there was always one F-15 pilot designated as a demonstration pilot. For several weeks before Elmendorf's *open house* weekend we would be treated to a practice demo flight on fridays. This also happened before the open house at Eilsen AFB in Fairbanks. There were other times the demo pilot would practice as well although I was never aware of the reasons other than the open house events.
Interesting difference between how the Navy and Air Force approach demonstration flights. :)
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Originally posted by BlueJ1
I'll be fixing those purty F-22s in a few months time. Im setting a goal for myself to work on the ground crew of the Blue Angels.
Do the blues use air force wrenches?
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i think the F-22 is smurfy. Be a shame when both the single seat F-15 and the F-14 are out of service :(
Russia has certainly taken over the purty plane producer mantle.
(http://www.flyinthesky.it/images/flanker/Su-27-008.jpg)
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Originally posted by Furball
*Yawn*
:lol
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you cannot deny it... no doubting it is a very good plane... but it is smurfy... :D
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Russian airplanes have a face only a mother could love.
I'm not their mother.
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The Russians have a pretty distinct airshow history. Especially the paris arishows.
Their pilots wreck and fly home commerical airline :)
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Well they just have to show the world's best ejection seat performance.
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Originally posted by Sandman
I highly doubt senators are waiting for airshows to see demonstrations of aircraft capabilities. There's a reason why we have test ranges. The performance capabilities are well known well before an aircraft is allowed to perform in front of a public audience. The pilots flying these single aircraft performances are not demonstration pilots. They are regular pilots in regular fleet assigned aircraft performing maneuvers that are all well within NATOPS guidelines.
And within the context of Mavericks initial question and my response, we were speaking of demonstration teams from the start.
Senators don't have to wait at airshows. They get their own.
This plane can do things others cannot. It's akin to thinking that harrier demonstrations are just flybys. The plane considerably increased capabilites and not showing them off would be a bit silly.
And... I've said solo from the start. The Superhornet demonstrations have been more impressive than the T-Birds or Blue Angels at any airshow I've seen them at. The F-15 demonstrations have also been significantly better. The teams are presice and amazing, but they are boring. Formation flying is something you appreciate the complexity of, but not nearly as much as a full AB climb off of the runway.
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BTW... these planes won't do the T-Birds stuff for one simple reason: Cost. Making these planes non-military capable would be a waste. Danger has nothing to do with it.
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Senators don't have to wait at airshows. They get their own.
Like I said...
BTW... these planes won't do the T-Birds stuff for one simple reason: Cost. Making these planes non-military capable would be a waste. Danger has nothing to do with it.
Exactly! Flying $350+ million worth of advanced aircraft as a demonstration team is a huge risk.
The F/A-18Cs used by the Blue Angels are early development models. They are not modified fleet aircraft. In fact they aren't even carrier capable. Using these aircraft for demonstration rather than scrap makes more sense than using fleet-ready aircraft. AFAIK, the F/A-18 could easily be readied for demonstration. It's a modular aircraft. Simply remove the components that aren't needed.
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What I was trying to focus on was not the capability of just the jet itself, techology is definitely cool to watch. But there is something about the tightness of a formation flying that highlights the capability of the PILOT which, to me, is far more interesting than the technology itself. The only solo act that makes my exhaust pipe pucker are those pilots in the aerobatic planes doing all kinds of crazy maneuvers. Now THAT is some real flying!!
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Originally posted by Sandman
Like I said..
Exactly! Flying $350+ million worth of advanced aircraft as a demonstration team is a huge risk.
The F/A-18Cs used by the Blue Angels are early development models. They are not modified fleet aircraft. In fact they aren't even carrier capable. Using these aircraft for demonstration rather than scrap makes more sense than using fleet-ready aircraft. AFAIK, the F/A-18 could easily be readied for demonstration. It's a modular aircraft. Simply remove the components that aren't needed.
I thought the Blue Angels got their jets from the fleet. Used.
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Originally posted by Mini D
And... I've said solo from the start. The Superhornet demonstrations have been more impressive than the T-Birds or Blue Angels at any airshow I've seen them at. The F-15 demonstrations have also been significantly better. The teams are presice and amazing, but they are boring. Formation flying is something you appreciate the complexity of, but not nearly as much as a full AB climb off of the runway.
Like this one (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5705445292492435253&q=f-16&pl=true)
Just by conincidence its from Oregon :)
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Originally posted by BlueJ1
I thought the Blue Angels got their jets from the fleet. Used.
Not according to US Naval Institute (http://www.usni.org/resources/FA18Hornet/FA18CD.htm).
The Navy–Marine Corps Blue Angels flight demonstration team began flying the F/A-18 in 1987. These are early, development models of the Hornet that are not carrier capable.
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Originally posted by BlueJ1
I'll be fixing those purty F-22s in a few months time. Im setting a goal for myself to work on the ground crew of the Blue Angels.
You are aware that the F-22 Raptor is a USAF (United States Air Force) aircraft, right? Squids aint getting em.
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According to the show on the Blue Angels on the Military channel. THe Marine in charge of repairing "new" F-18s said that the one we were looking at had just come back from the fleet. From there they go to A schools for new personel to the Navy to learn on or on a stick (put on a stand for public display).
Navy dosnt have F-22 yet. But Im sure in my planned atleast 20 year career I will see one. I mistated the month part.
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Originally posted by BlueJ1
According to the show on the Blue Angels on the Military channel. THe Marine in charge of repairing "new" F-18s said that the one we were looking at had just come back from the fleet. From there they go to A schools for new personel to the Navy to learn on or on a stick (put on a stand for public display).
Navy dosnt have F-22 yet. But Im sure in my planned atleast 20 year career I will see one. I mistated the month part.
I suspect that the Naval Institute is out of date. According to the Navy.com Blue Angels FAQ (http://www.navy.com/about/navylife/onduty/blueangels/faq/):
How many jets are in the Squadron?
The Blue Angels currently have 11 jets: numbers 1 through 6, 2 two-seat (#7) jets and 3 spare jets.
What are the major differences between the fleet model and the Blue Angel F/A-18?
The Blue Angel F/A-18s have the nose cannon removed, a smoke-oil tank installed and a spring installed on the stick which applies pressure for better formation and inverted flying. Otherwise, the aircraft that the squadron flies are the same as those in the fleet. Each Blue Angel aircraft is fleet capable and able to return to combat duty aboard an aircraft carrier within 72 hours.
Are Blue Angels’ aircraft carrier capable?
All of the Blue Angels’ jets are carrier-capable and can be made combat ready in about 72 hours. The squadron’s C-130 (“Fat Albert”) is a Marine Corps fleet aircraft manned by the squadron Marine Corps detachment and was not designed for routine carrier operations.
Apparently, the cost of making an aircraft combat ready or demonstration ready is minimal.
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Sandman, Id take your answer over mine. I cannot provide a real quote or fact. Plus who knows where this Marine got his information. And it was on tv...
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Originally posted by DiabloTX
I was watching "A Year With The Blue Angels" yesterday on The Military Channel and was surprised to learn the Blues use nothing but fleet "retirees" for thier purposes. The Blues use these aircraft, getting the very last use out of them, and then the planes are sent into mothballs, scrapped, or stuck on a pole for public viewing.
That's what I been sayin', damnnnnnnnn yo!
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BlueJ and Diablo, you're correct as near as I can tell.
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Apparently, the cost of making an aircraft combat ready or demonstration ready is minimal.
Sounds the like Air Force's Thunderbird team, a new paint job, put the gun back in and those F-16's are again combat ready.