Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Yoshimbo on June 26, 2006, 11:13:10 AM
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I have had minor successin beating the bnz in the a6m5b, p40, and yak against p51s, la7s, and temps. but only MINOR success.
I can only, manage to extend my life abit, rarely inflicting enough damage to make the kill.
I can only sumtimes reverse it if the are diving on me rather steeply from the six o'clock, if they dive in on me with horizontly, i find there is little i can do but bust sum sorta hairbrained spin and hope they miss.
I am hoping that sumone out there will help in stratagies on how to reverse the bnz more effectively, and how to perhaps loop that fool in the temp that flys out 100miles, and comes haulin back at ya goin mach1 gunz a blazin.
I need to know this since it seems that i am inevitable flying the slower planes. (a6m5b, p40, 110c4)
pics on maneuvers will be very much appreaciated.
tx
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Patience defeats the BnZ.
He is fast...you are slow....
You want him slow so that you may defeat him.
To do this...you must be patient...keep lag rolling him...keep outturning him....yet...keep your energy up. When he goes high, present him your six, yet remain in level flight to build up energy. You must keep repeating the above to survive. Use out-of-plane manuvers that conserve your energy but eats his up....a bit of rudder, an aileron roll, or a combination of both...use up his patience.
Most BnZ'ers haven't the patience but for a few passes....you must outwait their patience by manuvering against their passes. When you have negated their BnZ energy to CO-Energy with you, then use your skill in your aircraft to defeat him. Most of the time he'll find himself defensive and not understand how he got to where he is; but YOU will.
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a draw is the best you can hope for against a very good b&z'er
as it is extremely boring to fly that way, I am not a good b&z'er
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I get bored with the BnZ also.
However, I disagree with your assessment that a Draw is the Best you can hope to get from a good BnZ'er.
A good BnZer will eventually become boored with a good TnBer, who will become boored with the BnZer.
Both, at this point, will decide whether to engage at equal energy states, or disengage and fly to friendly territory, or engage in energy fighting.
Good SA (Situational Awereness) and command of individual aircrafts will determine the outcome.
Just some thoughts.
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Keep speed up some with level flight and try to fly energy conserving, evading his passes with barrel rolls, flat scissors, brake turns.
With A6M5 you have a chance to finally break his e state if he does his passes to tight.
One more thing that can work is diving away, if you have 10k alt and he has 20k make him dive with you to the deck, then let him pass and climb... hell end up with 10k and you with 4k, thats already a gain of 4k relative.
Mostly if your unpredictable and dodging his passes with high g maneuvering in the right moment he has slim chances to get you with pure BnZ attacks.
If he has only medium more speed than you then you can to roll out of way and back in shooting position to get a nice shot, but that is a tough move i never managed to hit... levi, wilbuz and a few others show it on their films though.
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All above replys are spot-on. A longtime ago, I was bounced by Shane in a higher-than-me P47,, I knew it was him (he was GOOD!), and I just kinda' gave up. He PM'd me and said; "Dont ever give up! Learn defensive tactics!" And, he was kind enough to show me some of his (via films he sent).
There's no single big secret answer to BnZ defense.. it's a series of "things" that you gota' master so that they're all a "reflexive action" without thought. THEN, being bounced from hi-6 is almost fun..
Like mentioned above, PATIENCE, is the key. You must be a master at snap-views, and be able to fly and land a plane while looking out the rear-view.
This is my fave tactic (there are many that work), from which I've nailed some great P51 pilots with forced overshoots.
High P51 overhead, and you're making for base, RTB. Here he comes, nose down, distance closing on you. Rear-UP-view, watch his wings.. manuever plane so that he's deadnuts on approach to your 6,, 20 deg. nosedown to gain speed.. like your trying to escape. (somewhere, an AH pilot is smiling! Ah! He's running! YES!)
At d' 1000 (still watching him out rear view), tip right wing straight up & slightly pull back on stick.. low-G left turn..
When his wing goes up, (he's now committed to the turn w/ you!),, pull hard back on stick, hi-G turn,,
20% of the time, you'll see his wings straighten out, (a wise pilot), and he'll abandon that pass, zooming back up for alt.
80% of the time, you'll see him try to cut inside your circle to pull lead for the shot. (risky, eager, pilot). This is the fun part!
At about d'400 (still watching enemy crawl up ur arse out rear view), both of you in 90 deg bank hard left turns,, do this:
Chop power to idle, and push stick full forward to the hilt! You'll RED-OUT instantly,, count; thousand-one, thousand-two, thousand-three, thousand-four..
Then, (in this order)=> stick over to right & back, and hit FULL WEP POWER.
Think of trying to roll your plane level, going straight up, and barrel rolling slowly to the left. (confusing sounding, but simple, as you'll see)
As RED-OUT clears, use view keys frantically to see where the bugger is.. 90% of the time, he'll be flopping around slightly below you on the left side, trying to figure out what in hell happened to his perfect bounce?
You'll get a passing snapshot at the very least if you can get him in view quick enough.. At the very worst, he'll try and zoom up, with 50% of his e wasted.
Set yourself on course to escape, and repeat if need be, turning to the right the next time.
This is (was?) one of the coolest Shane moves that works for me every time. Negative-G pushover under close 6 O'clock attack. Interestingly enough, I was reading one of the many WWII fighter pilot books. Found that Eric Hartmann described (and used) this same exact tactic, over & over, and attributed his longevity (and life!) to this tactic.
Good luck,
RV6
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if the b&z'er turns or slows, he is not b&z'ing anymore
as stated, the best you can hope for against a VERY good b&z'er is a draw as he will never turn or slow down but will be forced to rtb due to low fuel, no ammo or both .. they usually go off to find someone who isn't paying as much attention, afk or is still in their 2 week trial :)
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Originally posted by Eagler
if the b&z'er turns or slows, he is not b&z'ing anymore
as stated, the best you can hope for against a VERY good b&z'er is a draw as he will never turn or slow down but will be forced to rtb due to low fuel, no ammo or both .. they usually go off to find someone who isn't paying as much attention, afk or is still in their 2 week trial :)
I disagree with this... A VERY good B&Z'er will eventually trick you by anticipate your break, act like he is zooming up when in fact he is merely cutting inside your break with a high rolling turn, bleeding a bit of E on purpose to obtain an angle on you and blow you away.
What you are describing is someone who thinks he is a good BnZ'er ;) if they really were THAT good they'd be able to kill you and not have to go off and find a 2 week newbie or someone who is afk.
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The trick is to bait them to burn as much E as possible
A shallow dive can do this, if you have alt
Or extending flat, forceing them to 'run you down'
If your stuck on the deck low on E, use the deck to force angles that require a BnZer to slow down, pull off, or auger. This is usally done by getting under them.
So a BnZer is going to turn very little or not at all.... knowing this ... you need to turn very little or not at all, but be ready to switch it up if the BnZer tries to 'saddle up'.
So turn just a little to get off to a side ... watch the BnZer... if he turns, you keep gradually turning into a shallow dive. This will quickly move the planes towards an equal E state....
Now the con will ethier commit or pull off... if they pull off you need to reverse immediately and get back into thier flight path and shoot as they fly by. If they commit you need to pull into more complex ACM.
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Excelent post Blu
Originally posted by BluKitty
If your stuck on the deck low on E, use the deck to force angles that require a BnZer to slow down, pull off, or auger. This is usally done by getting under them.
Do not underestimate this tactic. That was exactly how I got my first hitech kill years ago. You don't always have to automatically try for fancy ACM. In fact when it's multiple bogies, sometimes simple is better.
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very good information here, yous guys.
thankyou
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I've always loved this very short clip for describing the perfect reversal.
LINK: http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/the_perfect_reversal.ahf
throwing yourself into a forced spin is a bad idea, as most BnZers want you to be as easy a target as possible.
think SLIM PROFILE whenever you are under fire.
paitience.
get into your enemies head and bring them down to your level by making yourself seems easy and tempting.
If all else fails, pull up right into them and HO hard.
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Don't confuse B&Z with Energy Fighting. A B&Z attack, the attacker will stay way high.
Try to even the advantage by bleeding their energy. Make the attacker turn hard. If you can bait him to turn, he will quickly loose his energy advantage.
If you are high, drag them down. A B&Zer has a limited range of altitude he can dive and recover. If he get's too fast, he will just burn off his energy advantage avoiding compression. By diving you can keep your speed high and your plane manouverable.
If you are near the ground or hill, use it. Fly along the ground into his attack making him dive steeply at the ground. If he does not auger, he will need to pull big Gs to avoid the ground. High G pulls will bleed energy.
With a good turning plane, if you can get them to burn energy, you should gain the advantage or they will exit before giving up all their energy. Learning how to energy fight will make you a master at avoiding the B&Z and energy attack :)
Gunner
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yoshi, extend 8 miles climbing, pull a 180, and cherry pick the temp in your zeke while he's got himself in a fix w/your fellow countrymen.
hap
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pffft just split S
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Back in the old days to get a turn fighter i would make a half hearted pass on a turn fighter just to see what his reaction would be. if the guy was smart and pulled some of the moves as you all have described i sometimes would test the turn fighter again just to see if i had a chance.
if he was good i would break off or fight until things started looking close on the E situation. ( or how many wingies he had inbound) gaining angles or forcing a mistake on either ones part. as soon as i felt the Turner was going to get the upper hand it is time to leave. ( this is a good Zoomer Turner fight) both have to know when to put the fangs back in and go home . some Zoomers leave much too early IMHO.
if i felt i had a chance i would always keep the E atvantage so i have the options and stay on top of the fight. if you get a Zoomer co E you have him by the short ones kill the fool !!! if he knows when it is time to leave Salute him and tell him good fight.
SA and E managment is always the Key.
I think i just decribed the coversion of a Band Z to a totally cool E fight.
but heck what do i know im just a Newbie
AWRabbit
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yoshi ur in a zero, if hes on u one on one and if he doesnt get u on the bnz he can just leave, zeros are retarded slow and i never find a zero at nothin above 1k and at that alt it doesnt even do 300. If zeros arent in a slow turn fight there no good, when i come adjust them(this is normally in a furbal) i got the speed at atleast above 360(meaning if a miss the shot he cant catch me) and normally he is chaseing someone or doesnt see me, a quick pass he nromally trys to go left at the last minute and i buzz him or nail him either way he cant get me. A smart guy in a speed demon wont let u get him, either he kills u, u escape, or a buddy joins the fight. Ur meal is the guy in the spit16 that thinks nothin can turn wit him(so i noe ur eating good:lol ). Last time i had a zero to myslef it was a easy meal, i dive, get close he turns, gives me a nice flat target, 6 50s blast, zero pops or hes on fire, back up and watch him burn. I remeber once i cam alittle higher then one maybe 500 feet above he turned and i hi yoyo'd after then he pulled up i guess to level so he can get me in a turn fight but he was slow and flat at about 550k out and i put 50s on him.
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Rabbit, et all, gud points. thanks
awrabbit a noob? roflmao
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I have a couple of lag roll films up on the Unforgiven's website. Link is in my sig.
Your best bet for defeating a BnZer is to be patient. Keep out of guns when they pull in for the shot. Eventually, all their pulling for a shot on you is going to remove their E advantage and level the playing field.
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so alot of wut i'm seeing here is,
1.) don't get shot
2.)be patient
3.)mix it up so as not be shot
4.) when he finally loses all that E (assuming he hasn't just left) the playing field is level, unless he turns tail and runs
5.) hook 'em into a turn fight if possible, (although i prefer the twisting turning/vertical fights) then blast 'is oscar
but, please keep posting it is interesting to here every1s different stratagies to this; and i'm sure this is most usefull to plenty of other pilots as well.:aok
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Shhhhh..... dont tell anyone
backatcha /O
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just learn to bleed the E out of the B&Z'er and he is all yers.
as i said before most zoomers are pretty helpless co-e /alt .
it is pretty easy to bait a zoomer into a knife fight (most times his fangs are out and he has lost his mind) and totally forgot that the closer he gets to co- E the closer he loses he is to losing hi advantage.
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well if his head aint on straight that wat will happen, but if ur all alone and he takes his time i dont thin there much u cant do, ur in a zero, one good rake will kill u. if u were in somethin else u have more options
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bkbandit, I feel sorry for you the first time you encounter someone who actually knows how to fly a zero. ;)
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I agree a Zero is a mean little fighter in the right hands.
Fester has cleaned my clock in the past many times in one
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lol, stay fast. the thing is the slowest fighter in the game. they never climb, 90% of them r found on the deck and if ur fightin that 10% up hi alittle speed turns his controls to trash, u can out turn him or force him to break his plane. Unless ur slow and low there not a threat to u. A slow speed of 300 mpg on the deck will out run it or at least let u drag race him. The zeros best place is in a furball sneakin in behind someone, but then him being the slowest and the biggest threat in the turnin biz hes normally killed first by ur la7,hurri c,nik, this is why there not a popular ride in m/a. the only thing it can do is turn slow but once ur(assuming ur smart and carrying ur cruze speed or above) in behind him and he turns hi yo yo or just go verticel and work him wit patience, soft skined zeros normally go on fire quick(they burn for too long, in the gun cams they die as soon as they go on fire) so then sit back and watch. Its no secret that zero is the best slow turner in the game, just dont be stupid and work around it.
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I've had bad luck when the BnZ'er goes vertical on me and he's a good shot. I just don't know what to do then. He can aileron roll to match anything I do & if I dive he'll just catch me & kill me in 1 pass.
That said - I've had good luck by keeping the the con at 90 degrees to my flight path - that is off the right or left wing tip. I climb at 200 mph and keep him off my wingtip until he starts to try & saddle me up. At about 1.5k I will pull up & do a barrel roll toward the con. When I roll out level I try to change my heading to match his in the hopes of getting a snap shot on him.
The barrel roll at 90 degree deflection is brutal to hit - you go up, then down, so if he thinks you're doing a climbing turn he'll climb then red out when you tuck under.
I've done this repeatedly and the best part is you're climbing most of the time while he's bleeding. I wind up co-alt and the con is too pissed to let me go.
Also, getting a snap shot on a 109K in your Wildcat and killing his engine is really a good time. Once a 109k goes glider the wildcat can catch 'em.
Heheheh.