Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Neubob on June 26, 2006, 03:18:01 PM
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How many people here think that patriotism is defined by the unrelenting support of a government, its symbols and its actions, during a time of war, or a time of peace, with the understanding that said government can be replaced come the election period?
How many people, by contrast, think that a true patriot is the kind best exhibited by the American Federalist--a person who believes that a corrupt and fundamentally inhumane government should be torn down by whatever means necesary(physical or political) to make room for something better, and that anyone standing by the corruption simply because it is who is in power, is the true traitor?
I'm very curious, because I see these two ideologies clashing here all the time, and while a strict adherence to either one usually ends in catastrophe, the more heated out debates get, the closer it seems people tend to edge to either one side or the other.
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I think everyone has their own different definition of patriotism.
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I don't think I like either of the definitions all that much.
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I think the first definition is closer to nationalism. Unrelenting support of a government would give it a licence to do whatever it liked. Remember the government is not the country, it merely exists to serve people of the country it governs. An obvious example is of course Nazi Germany. Many Germans supported the war to the bitter end even it was evident for a long time that it would only result in the destruction of everything they believed in.
A patriot on the other hand wants what he believes to be the best for the people of his country. If that means being unpopular or defying the government then so be it.
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Originally posted by Neubob
How many people here think that patriotism is defined by the unrelenting support of a government, its symbols and its actions, during a time of war, or a time of peace, with the understanding that said government can be replaced come the election period?
The problem is that the people who are #1, don't actually believe that they are #1. They think they are free thinkers. They listen to the radio personalities and tv pundits who are taking marching orders, and they don't see the money trail. The issues are re-framed in a way that offends their sensibilities by the pundits, and so they think they agree with the government even when they probably don't.
The people who are #2 seem closer to anarchists. Often they mask the fact they haven't successfully competed in the marketplace of ideas with some cocked up theory or conspiracy of why the playing field wasn't level.
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a patriot is a person blinded by dogma.
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Im a patriot.
Not to any given government, but to my family, the flag, our constitution and our king.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Im a patriot.
Not to any given government, but to my family, the flag, our constitution and our king.
We have more and more like that here Nilsen :)
shamus
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I'm a patriot to the US constitution. Everything else is expendable.
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I don't know if I'm considered a patriiot or not, I believe in the constitution. I believe that we are one people under a god or not. I believe we should be indivisible. I believe in freedom. I believe it isn't free. I honor our veterans, I stand up and put my hand over my heart for the National Anthum. I get mad when people burn the flag saying bad things about this country. I believe that marriage should be between a man and a woman.
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When does a Patriot stand by a corrupt system, hoping still to change it from within, and when does said Patroit say "enough is enough" and revolt?
I think this has always said it right.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
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Originally posted by Neubob
How many people, by contrast, think that a true patriot is the kind best exhibited by the American Federalist--a person who believes that a corrupt and fundamentally inhumane government should be torn down by whatever means necesary(physical or political) to make room for something better, and that anyone standing by the corruption simply because it is who is in power, is the true traitor?
I'm with yah till the last line.
The last revolution was lead by wealthy men.. men who pledged their lives, fortunes and sacred honor. So to speak. The people that did the majority of the dying for that ideal were not day traders with kids and a mortgage. The average joe today has a vested interest in this screwed up system and ain't about to get all jiggy and shoot up the supreme court over a few invasions of digital privacy...
Of course, should the majority become suddenly destitute, a starving army of former day traders could make a diffrence.
;)
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Patriotism is not born from discussion.
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Originally posted by Shamus
We have more and more like that here Nilsen :)
shamus
LOfluff'nL!
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
When does a Patriot stand by a corrupt system, hoping still to change it from within, and when does said Patroit say "enough is enough" and revolt?
I think this has always said it right.
Are you saying that maybe its time to start over?
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Well, though I don't see a whole lot of talk of forcefully breaking down the current system and building a new one in its place, I do hear quite a bit about how we must show support for this and that, or else we're liberal panzies who don't deserve to breath the same air as 'true Americans'.
The problem is that these same people take support for our troops, support for our government, support for the symbols and supposed ideologies of our nation and make it one and the same. You disagree with Bush, must mean you're against our troops, must mean you're against the flag and American way, your hearts beats for the insurgents and the terror cells, so go ahead and run to Canada, or join the ranks of the Taliban, or whatever.
It strikes me that anyone thinking this way would have felt right at home saying 'I was just following orders', during a time when that line was used to justify the deliberate mass execution of civilian prisoners. Because, after all, if the word of the leader is tantamount to the word of god, and just as important a symbol as the flag, or the Consititution, or apple-filled pastry, then we could justify anything, so long as it emerged from the mouth of a single man. Anyone speaking out against these words, conversely, are branded as universal panzies, commies and traitors, humiliated, and inevitably, grouped right alongside the enemy.
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Originally posted by dmf
Are you saying that maybe its time to start over?
Past Time.
maybe too late. (http://www.freedomtofascism.com/trailer/trailer01_wmv.html)
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Originally posted by dmf
I don't know if I'm considered a patriiot or not, I believe in the constitution. I believe that we are one people under god. I believe we should be indivisible. I believe in freedom. I believe it isn't free. I honor our veterans, I stand up and put my hand over my heart for the National Anthum. I get mad when people burn the flag saying bad things about this country. I believe that marriage should be between a man and a woman.
I think dmf summed up pretty well how I feel as a patriot. I dont feel any allegiance to any particular administration. I DO feel allegiance to our constitution though.
*edit* dmf, no offense intended by my edit of your quote. I do believe in God, so I edited out the *or not* part. :)
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I couldn't care less about a piece of cloth. I live in different countries than "mine" most of the time, pay my taxes where I live.... if I no longer like it, I move.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Past Time.
maybe too late. (http://www.freedomtofascism.com/trailer/trailer01_wmv.html)
If not, it's certainly getting closer. (http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/06/26/flag.amendment/index.html?section=cnn_allpolitics).
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Simply put, America was founded by people who were tired of a poorly run and corupt government.
To be against change when change is necessary is fundamentally opposite of that one original intent. Deciding when it is necessary is the tricky bit.
Today, just like then however, there are a lot of people who don't think its bad enough to make a scene. We will make it to the next election, and then we can vote as we see fit. Hopefully we will pay attention and not let the media make the decision for us.
The current situation is bad, and it is my personal opinion (and I'm not going to ram it down anyone's throat) that the current administration is corrupt, misguided and headed the wrong way.
I believe the decision to go to war in Iraq was a poor decision, but I don't think it was wrong... I just think it was poorly planned. And the planning at the government level hasn't improved much over time.
I support and admire the strength and bravery of our men and women fighting overseas, and I pray for them. I do not want them suddenly and foolishly brought home leaving a nation to collapse... I just want to see an intelligent plan to get them home as soon as possible and put this whole mess behind us.
We have a responsibility morally and legally as the occupying force, to support and defend the New Iraq until it is able to defend itself. I know our guys can do the job... And I hope everyone's sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, fathers and mothers are home where they belong as soon as possible.
Coming back to the original question... What is patriotism... Its a little of both... Sometimes you survive the bad government so that better things can follow. And sometimes you take it down as was done in the revolution. But I stand behind America and the people who make it what it is - Even during the times I can not stand behind the President.
America is a country. It is not an administration.
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Originally posted by Kurt
Simply put, America was founded by people who were tired of a poorly run and corupt government.
Odd. I thought they were tired of taxation without representation. The very idea of being a colony did not sit well.
But go with the corupt government thing... it works better for your argument.
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Originally posted by Mini D
Odd. I thought they were tired of taxation without representation. The very idea of being a colony did not sit well.
But go with the corupt government thing... it works better for your argument.
Isn't taxation without representation a bit on the unfair side, though? Or the fact that his majesty's troops could up and commandeer any civilian domecile when they got tired of marching around?
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Yes. Your point? Coruption was not the point. This was all perfectly legal... dare I say "entitled". The people had absolutely no say in it.
To compare that situation with the current government is laughable. To pretend the people with the "impeach bush" bumper stickers on their cars even remotely compare to the founding fathers is equally laughable.
Today, people seem to be creating a crisis at all costs. I get up, go to work, come home, do yardwork, **** around on the computer, drive my car anywhere I want to and pretty much do as I please. Virtually anyone else in America is entitled to those same opportunities.
The cry of government for more regulations mates up quite nicely with the cry of "those against government" for any kind of rebellion because of how out of hand society is today.
I just don't get it. I must not be patriotic because I think the government is a bunch of morons and believe anyone out to overthrow them would be even worse.
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Originally posted by Mini D
Yes. Your point? Coruption was not the point. This was all perfectly legal... dare I say "entitled". The people had absolutely no say in it.
The fact that the government made it legal does not mean that it wasn't corrupt. You're missing the point by miles. Saddam made lots of things legal for himself in Iraq, but I don't think you'll argue that he was of stout moral fiber? Or will you?
To pretend the people with the "impeach bush" bumper stickers on their cars even remotely compare to the founding fathers is equally laughable.
I'd didn't say any such thing, and I don't believe anything of the sort... You made that up for your troll.
Today, people seem to be creating a crisis at all costs. I get up, go to work, come home, do yardwork, **** around on the computer, drive my car anywhere I want to and pretty much do as I please. Virtually anyone else in America is entitled to those same opportunities.
The cry of government for more regulations mates up quite nicely with the cry of "those against government" for any kind of rebellion because of how out of hand society is today.
I agree with you on this point and with every bit of enthusiam. I'm a very happy American I feel unthreatened by anything and I make a good solid paycheck and own many nice things.
I also agree that the uneducated are nervous about nothing and I think the media feeds on it... This was the basis of my remark about not letting the media elect the next president.
Just because a few whackos live in a rock and learned how to crash airplanes doesn't make me scared. They are a poor pathetic troop of miscreants. Precisely ONE TIME they made a successful attack within the United States. Six years later CNN still keeps everyone paranoid and frankly I believe GW tries to capitalize on that fear.
In an age where any teenager can make a DVD quality movie on a $400 computer these guys still only make raspy audio tapes where you can barely hear them... They are no serious threat to the American way of life... They are only thugs. We have worse people in our own citys and we let them wander free.
I just don't get it. I must not be patriotic because I think the government is a bunch of morons and believe anyone out to overthrow them would be even worse.
Currently I agree...(except that I DO think there are some high level morons in the government - the President himself can only form an understandable sentence about 60% of the time.) The point was that a government CAN be corrupt enough to require that action. The current situation is not like that... If you take a moment to actually read the post, you would have picked up on this subtle point made in the first 3 paragraphs.
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Originally posted by Mini D
Odd. I thought they were tired of taxation without representation. The very idea of being a colony did not sit well.
But go with the corupt government thing... it works better for your argument.
Taking a persons money, calling it taxes and shipping it off to the King who then does nothing to support the colony, gives them no voice in the government and only farms it for profit is corrupt abuse of power. That is taxation without representation. Learn the meaning of the words instead of memorizing the text so that you can pass the test.
If you can't see that, then I'm afraid there is no point in trying to convince you...
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Originally posted by Kurt
Taking a persons money, calling it taxes and shipping it off to the King who then does nothing to support the colony*1, gives them no voice in the government and only farms it for profit is corrupt abuse of power. That is taxation without representation. Learn the meaning of the words instead of memorizing the text so that you can pass the test.
If you can't see that, then I'm afraid there is no point in trying to convince you...
*1 The taxes levied on the British Colonies in North America was largely to pay for the costs of the French and Indian War. So the King had already done something for the colonies, he just did not sell it well and did not give voice to the Americans.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
*1 The taxes levied on the British Colonies in North America was largely to pay for the costs of the French and Indian War. So the King had already done something for the colonies, he just did not sell it well and did not give voice to the Americans.
There are two sides to every story... I'm certain that in England, they are taught that we were unruly colonists and we were the bad guys... And I'm certain that just like every where else in life, the truth is in the middle somewhere.
I'm not going to debate the cause of the revolution... The point is that the people (many, but not all of them) decided it was bad enough to rise up, and they did... It formed a new nation.
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Originally posted by Kurt
Taking a persons money, calling it taxes and shipping it off to the King who then does nothing to support the colony, gives them no voice in the government and only farms it for profit is corrupt abuse of power. That is taxation without representation. Learn the meaning of the words instead of memorizing the text so that you can pass the test.
If you can't see that, then I'm afraid there is no point in trying to convince you...
Whoa whoa whoa. Back up there tiger, and catch your breath. You keep straining against your leash like that, you'll choke yourself to death.
Saying we had no representative in England's govt. just isnt true. Also, England had every right at the time to collect taxes, and the American colonies had agreed to pay taxes as loyal English citizens.
What we objected to were taxes that were levied ONLY on colonists, instead of all Englishmen equally. The colonies also felt they did not have ADEQUATE representation for their numbers, but we DID have representation.
Also saying the King did nothing to support the colonies is a bit of a stretch, when the thing the extra taxes were to pay for was the French and Indian war expenditures, a war which was fought to protect the colonies, and which nearly bankrupted England. As a matter of fact, the reason the new taxes were passed in spite of arguments against them, was because of a pervading idea that the American colonies did not pay their way as part of the British Empire. We were actually seen as rather spoiled. Boy we proved em wrong there didnt we?
I'm as patriotic as the next man and I love my country. I think the Constitution is one of the greatest documents ever written. But I acknowledge that the men who led our country to freedom from England werent perfect either, and were politicians as much as they were patriots. That said, I'm certainly glad they won and not the other way round.
Dont go telling other people off when you havent bothered to study the history yourself. And dont just accept what was in your 6th grade history book as the sum total of the experience.
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"There are too many people who imagine that there is something sophisticated about always believing the best of those who hate your country, and the worst of those who defend it"... This quote came to mind after reading a couple threads...
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Whoa whoa whoa. Back up there tiger, and catch your breath. You keep straining against your leash like that, you'll choke yourself to death.
Are you guys just looking for a stupid argument, or are you answering the original post?
I never made any claim to be a history professor...
Right after my initial post the first remark disregards everything meaningful that was said and picks one little quip rather than arguing the more valid intents of that post.
My post was about being able to disagree with your government and still supporting your country. Thats all. Nothing more.
Freakin bulldogs. I have no interest to debate the finer points of the American Revolution... That was never my intent.
Since there seems to be a belief that I want to debate history with you in unending detail, let me instead summarize the point about the revolution in bold so that you're not confused what I'm getting at...
the colonists perceived they were getting jerked around and they rose up against it... Right or wrong. They made a new nation.
Ok? Get it now? They felt jacked over, they got tired of it. The simple version... Not the version where anyone is trying to prove how smart they are or how many names and dates they can quote.
I'm not arguing who did what, why, on what day... I'm simply saying that this DID happen.. There is a precident. Change IS the American way. The ability to bring change via the democratic system is our legacy.. We make bad changes... we make good changes... In the end, we make America out of that.
very simple...
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"Loyalty to petrified opinions never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul in this world--and never will."
Mark Twain (1835-1910)
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Umm, Kurt, you were the one who felt your interpretation of History was being trampled on and got all nasty with someone. We reacted to your TONE, not your words. Does this ring a bell for you?
Learn the meaning of the words instead of memorizing the text so that you can pass the test.
Dont start throwing your weight around if you dont like having your arguments refuted.
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The original draft of Declaration did not read,
"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security..."
The original draft said, "When jacked around long enough, peeps get pissed, and we best be gettin' to kickin' some regal ass..." Later the text reads, "We gonna make our own country and the king can go f--- off"
The edits of Franklin and Adams helped massage the prose to what we prize today.
oh yeah, WTG Beavers!
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I'm not sure, but it seems to me that the prospect of successfully revolting against Washington is sort of an out-of-touch idea today. Hell, the South tried it, and with a whole army, didn't get the job done... What is America to do then, to heed the words of the Declaration? Are we supposed to get our dis-enfrachised tulips up and, with post-ban Aks and Ar-15s in hand, go up against the National Guard? Is that what Franklin and his cronies suggested? Isn't that one of the reasons we have to thank for the second ammendment?
Seems that the only way to revolt is to do so by pooling public opinion. Thankfully, we still live in a place where it's legal to call the president an *******. Enough people doing that, coupled with some well-placed ad campaigns and perhaps in idiotically skewed propaganda film by a rich yet poorly-attired fat man, will lead to, well, a second term for said *******, but, after that term's over, we're in business...
Bush administration meet.... Uh....
Hillary!!!
For Christ sake. Makes me wanna choke on my own puke sometimes.
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What cpxxx said. ^ Especially "Unrelenting support of a government would give it a licence to do whatever it liked." This is what happened in Britain from 1997-2005 in Tony Blair's first two administrations. One needs to remember that there is a difference between the Government and the State in any democracy, something Blair and co. seemed to have forgotten in those years, but they're getting plenty of reminders now.
Kurt - I think you are partly right - quoting from memory (no time to look it up just now), there were the Stamp Acts - forms which had to be filled in by American officials, who had to use the very expensive special paper supplied by the British. So yes, the Americans were being ripped off by Britain.Originally posted by Kurt
I'm certain that in England, they are taught that we were unruly colonists and we were the bad guys...
This, however, is bollocks. Was it a troll? I passed History O-Level in 1971, and part of the course covered the American Revolution, Boston Tea Party etc. I think most of us found it to be an amusing story! Something about the revolutionaries dressing up as tea traders and chucking the tea into Boston Harbor. That was then and this is now! And Britain and America have been joined at the hip since WW2 and probably long before.
Which brings me on to why I'm pressed for time. I have been invited to lunch in London, by a visiting American friend, who now lives in Bloomington, Indiana. WTF is that? So TP till later on this afternoon.
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Here's the catch: Voting democrat is not being a rebel. Quit labeling yourself as such.
The two parties are so stagnent that it's laughable. But I don't see the voters doing much about that. The change needs to come from within government. You're not going to get rid of the people supporting their own state, nor buisnesses in their own state. That's why they're called representatives. It just seems there are some things that can be done to curtail election costs and hold politicians to their word.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: I wish more of the politicians were like Arnold. He speaks his mind and makes a concerted effort to be true to his word. He seemingly makes decisions that are for the betterment of his state that aren't based on pandering, corperate greed nor partisan politics.
Now I look at how he was treated during the elections. I look at the "groping" charges levied against him by people so politically corrupt that anything that put a chink in his armor was considered a good thing. The voters ended up winning that one in the end, but they were mocked relentlessly by virtually everyone around them because they chose the better governer.
I guess in that regards, the voters need to take a serious reality check too. Once again, reading this BBS highlights that. There is no goverment that opperates the way most people here portray it. It's neither noble nor absolutely corrupt. Good things happen and bad things happen. The more we make nothing issues into serious issues the more fuel we throw on the flame. Our "rebellion" against one party is support for the other. At least, it sure seems that way with 90% of what I see posted here and 100% of what you (neubob) post.
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The catch is that a true patriot is an individualist... he believes that man has inalienable rights and that government is only there to protect those rights.
As such... the current government is much better than the klinton one say to someone like me but... I have enemies in both parties...
What my choices are is staying with the rupublicans and walking toward socialism and the loss of individualism or voting for democrats and running full speed toward it.
If I were to take up arms I would probly wait till the democrats were in power because they are so much more abhorent and they are the most likely to try to disarm me in the first place. That is probly what it will take to get a violent revolution in this country.
But.... for now and for a peaceful solution I would suggest that if you love freedom and hate tyranny and corruption....
That we all simply vote down every new tax that comes up for us to vote on and that we vote down any new ban or law or restriction on anything.
If you don't..... you are allowing, no.... you are gleefuly encouraging the growth of government and the loss of your individual rights.
The enemy is big government and socialism. No patriot to himself and man would allow them to flourish.
lazs
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The trouble is we are too far into whatever this monster is we've created since after WW2. If a rebellion ever started it would be the ruination of this country, not the cure.
That said I dont think we have to worry about a rebellion anytime soon. Look at what the left is largely made up of. Not really the stuff of Paul Revere and Betsy Ross. I think high schools should have a course for kids, thats called "My Expanding Mind, and Why I will soon think (at my young age) I have the answer that will make everything better".
As long as people are polled for what changes they would make, and the answer is "legallize pot", I dont think we have to worry much.
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Originally posted by Mini D
Here's the catch: Voting democrat is not being a rebel. Quit labeling yourself as such.
I didn't label myself anything. Seems maybe you did?
My point last night remains the same today... We have the power to make change at the voting booth. And we do.
I do not think a rebellion is necessary or even that it would work. I simply said that in sufficiently bad times, people do rebel against their government.
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Originally posted by lazs2
The catch is that a true patriot is an individualist... he believes that man has inalienable rights and that government is only there to protect those rights.
As such... the current government is much better than the klinton one say to someone like me but... I have enemies in both parties...
What my choices are is staying with the rupublicans and walking toward socialism and the loss of individualism or voting for democrats and running full speed toward it.
If I were to take up arms I would probly wait till the democrats were in power because they are so much more abhorent and they are the most likely to try to disarm me in the first place. That is probly what it will take to get a violent revolution in this country.
But.... for now and for a peaceful solution I would suggest that if you love freedom and hate tyranny and corruption....
That we all simply vote down every new tax that comes up for us to vote on and that we vote down any new ban or law or restriction on anything.
If you don't..... you are allowing, no.... you are gleefuly encouraging the growth of government and the loss of your individual rights.
The enemy is big government and socialism. No patriot to himself and man would allow them to flourish.
lazs
An excellent post Laz.. Hit every nail right on the head.
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Personally I think that the US is in as much risk of getting a socialist government as of getting trampled by a continent-sized oppossum bred out of a salt-water croc and a grey bunny from a certain region within Belorussia.
Seriously though, if one observes the political tendencies in the Western world a cyclic movement becomes apparent. Public sympathy for (and therewith power) respectively 'left' and 'right' parties comes and fades, usually retraceable to the prevailing economic climate during the reign of a given political orientation.
I may be less inititiated into the finer details of US (domestic) politics than many of you but I'm fairly sure the political views of both the general public and respective US governments will remain virtually the same before and after any given prolonged periods.
In between it will fluctuate but in the end nothing will change.
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filth... not sure I understand what you are saying... The left will not rebel because they are getting what they want not because they are such wimps.
We are going more and more toward socialism (communism for those who can't spell) and the loss of individualism....
Sure... they make a lot of noise when there is a glitch or slowdown in the slide toward socialism but... in the end they know that they control enough.... media... schools etc to insure that we keep sliding toward government control of everything.
anyone want to put their money where their mouth is? Vote down every new tax and every new law... no matter how little it affects you or "get's" the other guy that you don't like or.... no matter how much you think that putting the burden on someone else will save you...
Take helmet and seatbelt laws.... You wanted em cause they were gonna save you money on insurance at the expense of people you didn't care about anyway....
So tell me..... How much did your rates go down? How much better is your life?
lazs
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I never knew that Laz and I thought so similarly on the this topic.
I actually did start voting down anything that required additional tax money. I started this 3 elections ago..
Every school bond (in california hardly a year goes by without a school bond issue... We have authorized billions that they have managed to lose... I'm not giving them any more until they justify the money already lost...)
Anyhow, every school bond, every feel good grant, etc... Every indian gaming initiative, NO. If it costs money (name a law that doesn't) I'm not voting for anything that lightens my wallet so someone can be irresponsible.
No on every ballot proposition... We wouldn't need propositions if we would vote out those idiots in the state capitol who keep writing bad laws. Propositions are just band-aids for bad law, get rid of the inept law makers and you don't need the propositions.
And MOST ESPECIALLY.. NO on any additional amendments to the consitution unless they increase freedom rather than restrict it further. Don't waste my tax money by trying to legislate morality. In America everyone has the right to their own morality (or lack thereof) within the confines of the exisiting law.
Glad to see someone else with the same policy :aok
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Geesh...I really like Mini D's and Lazs take. Thanks D & Lazs
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The enemy is big government and socialism. No patriot to himself and man would allow them to flourish.
"Unrelenting support of a government would give it a licence to do whatever it liked."
Seems that the only way to revolt is to do so by pooling public opinion. Thankfully, we still live in a place where it's legal to call the president an *******. Enough people doing that, coupled with some well-placed ad campaigns and perhaps in idiotically skewed propaganda film by a rich yet poorly-attired fat man, will lead to, well, a second term for said *******, but, after that term's over, we're in business...
You wanna see a change?
Cut the money off.
Tax Strike.
The law sez yah have to file.. so file. No law sez yah have to pay.
Don't pay. Put the money in escrow. pay up when they show yah the law that sez YOU have to pay for the corporate monkey shines.
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yep hang... gotta cut the money and the power off but.... You don't want to be a martyr. Martyrs get..... crucified.
A lawful tax revolt would be to simply stop playing the game... stop being duped... don't vote for new laws (except as kurt points out... those that increase freedom) and don't vote for new taxes.
new school taxes make for richer and more powerful public schools that make for dumber kids.
If you vote for a special tax to fix roads then they use the regular road fees for something else...
If you vote to save social securtity then they give more of the social security fees away.
you vote for helmet and seatbelt laws and the insurance companies just make more money and the government has an excuse to build it's police force.
You vote to restrict the other guy and they can then concentrate on getting your life restricted.
We pay too much tax right now. make em use it smarter. Make em shrink the government.
That is the real answer.
I would very much like to hear how nash and the other socialists (your-0-peeeans) think about this.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
I would very much like to hear how nash and the other socialists (your-0-peeeans) think about this.
lazs
Well Lazs, I don't disagree with any of what you said about taxes. The problem is not that Government is receiving too little money in order to provide services and enact reforms, but that Government itself is guilty of gross ineptitude. At least that's how I feel about the current government in Britain, which seems to tally with what other people are saying in this thread about the situation in the US. As you know, I could probably afford a bigger and thirstier car, plus other extravagances. But I forego these luxuries because I know that the whole package would be costing me a lot more in terms of tax. And I feel that with the current government, I might as well take wads of £50 notes and flush them down the toilet for all the good it would do anyone were the government to get its hands on the money.
HangTime's idea is not without merit - a Tax Strike! It could well come to just that, assuming that Britain is the canary in the coalmine for what is about to happen in the USA. Already, several elderly pensioners have gone to jail in protest at swingeing increases in council tax - a tax which is supposed to pay for things like education, police, street cleaning etc. But many are feeling badly let down. Just this week, another pensioner went to jail for nonpayment of tax. Read about it here (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/06/27/ncrack27.xml). It is patently obvious that this woman is no common criminal, but a great humanitarian and pillar within her community.
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It's not my idea. Toad implanted it in my brain in another thread a month or so ago. I've been swimming upstream, checking out the concept ever since. And, I gotta say; my immediate reaction was the same as laz's.
Now, I'm not so sure.
I think all we need is a leader... rather than just a few of us on tax strike; it's gonna take most of us on a tax strike. To get there it's gonna take a charismatic leader; somebody that can galvanize the dissent for the runaway deficit, corruption and erosion of rights..
We need a Modern Boston Tea Party.
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An american who says he doesnt support bush is more of a patriot then an american who says he supports bush because he (the american) is a patriot.
Tex
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A revolution needn't be quick and violent. I believe the surest way to divert us from the path to socialism and loss of indiviual liberty is school vouchers. Who will argue that the future of our nation lives in the hearts and minds of our youth?
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I believe option 2 is true patriotism. The first thing described at the begining of this thread is blatant Nationalism, and should only be confused with patriotism at a nation's peril.
Far too many people now adays fail to make the destinction. The government is the most eager to lead people astray like this, making it seem that if you are not an entusiastic follower that you are not a patriot, or are even worse a traitor. Nationalism leads quickly to fascism, and other forms of despotism, and I fear that this country is quickly sinking into that trap.
If you havn't read it already, check this out and see what you think for yourself.
http://ellensplace.net/fascism.html
http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm
True patriots won't be afraid to give it a shot.
True patriots can question their own country in the hopes of rectifying faults.
True patriots fail to settle for something that's good when they know that something better is out there.
True patriots have the courage to question their country, their government and themselves.
True patriots are not so cowardly as to go along with a government agenda that is absent of justification or moral credibility.
............................. .......
Following one political party or another, unflinchingly and unquestioningly, is even more dangerous than Nationalism. It is an internal form of Nationalism, and partisan politics will be what finally tears the fabric of America.
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And on the note of school vouchers.......
These are but a scheme to pick apart the public school system, which is already in enough trouble as it is. Won't help anything, and will only send my tax dollars to parochial schools.
How is that fighting socialism?
Big government is bad, but socialism and the left in general do still have things they can offer.
Never forget that the right, left and even the center (where liberalism truly resides) all have something good to offer to political discourse, as do they all have falling points. Just because something is left or right, doesn't necessarily mean it is bad.
And for the record, liberalism is not the left. Liberalism is the center of the classical political spectrum (which is extremely out dated anyway). There is no true left to American politics, at least not one that gets any attention. If there were, maybe we would have more balanced discourse in this country, and maybe we'd have better options that two parties who are beholden to the same interests anyway. Centrists representing themselves as leftists only do us all a disservice.
Vote independent!!!! Both parties want to enslave you!!!
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i only like me
patriotism is for suckers
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a true patriot is the one who is always ready to take up arms against his own govt.
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Patriotism is by definition an irrational, mindless persuit: there's no more rational choice involved in which is your country of origin than what your natural hair colour is.
The only criteria is assuming that whichever country you were born in is the best country in thee world. Which smacks of egotism.
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Originally posted by 68Hawk
And on the note of school vouchers.......
These are but a scheme to pick apart the public school system, which is already in enough trouble as it is. Won't help anything, and will only send my tax dollars to parochial schools.
How is that fighting socialism?
Big government is bad, but socialism and the left in general do still have things they can offer.
Never forget that the right, left and even the center (where liberalism truly resides) all have something good to offer to political discourse, as do they all have falling points. Just because something is left or right, doesn't necessarily mean it is bad.
And for the record, liberalism is not the left. Liberalism is the center of the classical political spectrum (which is extremely out dated anyway). There is no true left to American politics, at least not one that gets any attention. If there were, maybe we would have more balanced discourse in this country, and maybe we'd have better options that two parties who are beholden to the same interests anyway. Centrists representing themselves as leftists only do us all a disservice.
Vote independent!!!! Both parties want to enslave you!!!
The public school system is socialism at it's worst. It is dying a painful and lingering death while taking us with it. Let's put it out of it's misery.
Today's self proclaimed liberals are more socialists than anything else.
If dissent is true patriotism then I was very patriotic when Wild Bill was at the wheel.
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Today's liberals are no socialists. If they were they'd be able to make up their damn minds and stick to something hard. They're main problem is they are trying to float both ways, or waffle as I think some have termed it.
The public school system is one of the best things that ever happened to this country. It's why Americans became so much better educated than the rest of the world. But it's been neglected, malfunded and relegated to the beaurocratic stupidity of so many other government departments. Giving all our kids an education isn't really socialism, its good common sense, and also good for business if you think about it in capitalistic terms.
On the subject of Billy..........
Props to you for being a patriot. Clinton (which one??? I don't care) is just as bad as both Bush's have been for this country. They are all in it together. One big piece that the liberals have played in this big chess game is getting weapons bans approved, making what WhiteHawk said all the more important.
Again I urge you to vote independent, because liberal or conservative, both parties are controlled, and voting for them is wanting to be controlled by them. Clintons, Bushs, Kennedys, all of them can go stuff it. It's time to stand up for America again, getting back to what true patriotism is about.
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Cool...
The verbal equivalent of barf.
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68... interesting views you have...
Not well thought out or correct... but interesting.
You would have been correct that the public school system was the best thing our government had done if you would have been speaking of public schools a century ago.
the American revolution was the best thing for the world 2 centuries ago...
Both have something in common... absolute power corrupts absolutely... Our public schools have turned into propoganda socialist experiments. Our government has grown to a tyranny of the individual.
Vouchers are a "scheme" to destroy public schools (as they exist today)
That is a very good thing... the bloated liberal socialist public school system needs to die and something more along the lines of education put in it's place... every decade they do less with a doubling of the money thrown at them... they are the exact defenition of liberal socialism.
Socialism started in the FDR 30's and was reinforced by LBJ and "the great society"
We are so far gone down the path of liberal socialism that people like you don't even recognize socialism anymore.
As for what they have to offer... little or nothing for me thank you.
What independent would you vote for? most are so far left that they would gag marx.
Some are one idea platforms... commune with nature or smoke pot are their only concerns... Libertarian? they are wussie eggheads who wouldn't fight if you rubbed their faces in dog doo.
lazs
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I have to disagree with this comment:
The public school system is one of the best things that ever happened to this country. It's why Americans became so much better educated than the rest of the world.
Americans are not so much better educated than the rest of the world. That is an illusion. Any number of countries have better school systems. You have been let down by your school system. It does need reform.
Many countries have higher standards in high school complete with tough competitive exams to go to college. In fact exams are needed whethet you go to college or not.
However it is fair to say that after college, Americans are as well educated as anyone in the world. There is no doubt whatever that many American universities are the best in the world. But at high school level that is not true I'm afraid.
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cpx... you are correct. You would not be correct if you were talking the public school systems of the early 20th century.
This is proof that we are going in the wrong direction now or... that absolute power corrupts absolutely.... sometimes it takes a while.
Our public school system is in the grip of the teachers union and the liberal socialists... I think anyone with a fair mind can see how much worse they have gotten as more and more control by the liberals is exerted.
lazs
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First of all I do agree with you on a lot of points lazs, and if the public school system hadn't been left to dissrepair we would still be the best educated in the world.
However, liberal socialist is a contradiction in terms. Are you trying to say left of center or center of left? Its kind of like saying conservative liberal.
Its too bad that the public schools have become a breeding ground for propagandising our youth, but I've never seen socialism presented as anything in public schools here.
More pay for the teachers, more money for paper and heat and less hampering from administrators and people trying to mess with cirriculum. The dumbing down of America started when they started gutting the public schools.
I love that saying that goes: It will be a wonderful day when our schools have all the money they need and the air force has to have a bake sale to buy a bomber. I don't completely agree with that of course, but its an interesting perspecitve.
lazs, you rant and rave about socialism and liberalism and interchange them, but what would you propose in stead? Libertarianism is socially left and economically right, and you dont like that either.
Food for thought: you know one of marx's principles was the universal arming of the masses?
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Originally posted by Sandman
I don't think I like either of the definitions all that much.
I agree with that.
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I agree with your agreement with that.
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68... so I am to give up individualism in order to be armed?
That is an example of one tiny item of a political philosophy that may appeal while the rest sickens.
Liberal socialism is not a contradiction in terms. If anything it is redundant. A trait that I don't mind having.... redundant used on most people still get's a "yeah but whaaaa did you mean?"
I am an individualist. this may appear to have some beliefes of all political philosophies but in the end.... it is anti socialist and... anti liberal.
In practice.... a liberal is a fine person to be around so long as he has no power over anyone.... Just as a socialist is. Both believe that we are social creatures and that individualists are an aberation.
Both liberals and socialists want to limit personal freedom for the good of the whole "humanity" They both love humanity but hate people.
An individualist loves people but hates humanity. Humanity to me is the mob in the theatre right after someone yells "fire" or the lynch mob.
Of all the systems... libertarianism is the least repugnant to me. Simply because they would interfere with me the least... Socialism or tyranny (same thing... matter of degree) appeal the least.
Liberal has become a dirty word... not because people don't understand it but because people are beggining TO understand it. Liberals allign themselves with the socialists in every case.... why is that? well..... in the end... they have the same goals and thoughts. That somehow... there must be a level playing field not in opportunity but.... in result. The effect being that the lazy and the sociopath and the whiner are fed at the expense of the individual... individual rights are forfiet in the perfectr liberal socialist world.
lazs
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and... how have the schools been left to disrepair? are you saying the buildings? the grounds? How much "dissrepair" was the wood stove heated school house of the 1800's in?
How good a building do you need to teach kids? how much salary does someone need to be able to teach children?
Socialism is not even taught in schools.... it is the accepted way of life. Individualism is frowned on (to put it lightly). The socialists and liberals have destroyed the ability of schools to teach...
the taxpayers who are paying more every year for such a simple jop are not responsible for the crappy buildings.
The parents who have the kids a couple of hours a night are not responsible for the teachers inability to teach. The liberals with their lunch programs and illegal alien programs and social meddling are to bolame along with teachers unions who all vote liberal democrat (socialist).
lazs