Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Hangtime on June 26, 2006, 10:17:51 PM
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Officials said the men had no actual contact with al-Qaeda and were part of an increasing number of home-grown terrorist organizations in this country. The plot ``was more aspirational than operational,'' Pistole said.
The seven men met with a U.S. informant who posed as a member of al-Qaeda, the attorney general said. Five of the seven are U.S. citizens, while one is a legal permanent U.S. resident and one is a Haitian national in this country illegally.
``They certainly had the will; they were searching for the way,'' R. Alexander Acosta, U.S. attorney in Miami, said at a news conference in Florida. The leader of the plot sought al- Qaeda training for the group, and members took photos of their planned targets, he said.
`Had the Intent'
``Although this group had the intent and took steps toward'' destroying the Sears Tower and other buildings, ``they were never able to obtain the explosives or access needed to implement this plan,'' Acosta said. He said authorities believe they have arrested all members of the plot.
The men were charged with conspiring to support the al-Qaeda terrorist organization, conspiring to provide support to terrorists, conspiring to use an explosive to destroy buildings, and conspiring to levy war against the U.S. government.
ROFL!
A street cult/gang trying to shake some money outta the 'AQ Terrorist Philanthropy'.... this is downright pitiful.
And, I feel so much safer now.
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What a great great victory for the men and women of the Department of Homeland Security!
Their parents must be oh so very proud.
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of course, when somebody does blow up something, you two will be the first to cry "why didn't the govt DO SOMETHING?"
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Entrapment is what it is.
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Originally posted by Mr Big
Entrapment is what it is.
Sean Connery and Catherine Zeta Jones? No... that was Petronas Towers, not Sears.
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Originally posted by Mr Big
Entrapment is what it is.
yup, and of course a big splashy headline. that should be good for a few more chunks of our civil liberties.
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Originally posted by john9001
of course, when somebody does blow up something, you two will be the first to cry "why didn't the govt DO SOMETHING?"
LOL.. I think not. And, I didn't blame Bush for katrina, either. I prefer to take responsibility for my own security, and would be far less interested in blame than I would be in sure and certain justice.
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Originally posted by storch
yup, and of course a big splashy headline. that should be good for a few more chunks of our civil liberties.
Yup. The kickball moms will be demanding that heads roll. This is it folks... 50 billion; 4 years... and we got 7 homeless twits living in a warehouse. No weapons. No money. No plot. just a buncha homeless bums scamming a buck from an undercover homeland security creep.
"Say... anybody seen a big hatchetfaced dude inna turban pushing a dialisis machine around lately? I gotta plan.... "
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The cops should have just given them a bag of crystalized cyanide and let them believe it was crack... Problem solved, and without the legal fees.
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Originally posted by Neubob
The cops should have just given them a bag of crystalized cyanide and let them believe it was crack... Problem solved, and without the legal fees.
cops are just like you and I. some want recognition and they have personal agendas. they need to make arrests. In this instance there was no problem to solve, eg. the problem. they needed to create the problem then they could solve it and look good. view this dog and pony act as something akin to a forest ranger starting a forest for something to do and for the recoginition. it happens, and it did happen. I think what you have here is close to another waco or ruby ridge except the home boys could not shoot back as the only assault weapon they had was hiphop on a boom box.
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scum is scum
don't care where they scape it up from as long as it is disposed of properly
do you think the 1st homegrown cell will be from a rich and powerful caste?
I do not as they are soft and comfy and have way too much to live for here ..
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Originally posted by Eagler
scum is scum
don't care where they scape it up from as long as it is disposed of properly
do you think the 1st homegrown cell will be from a rich and powerful caste?
I do not as they are soft and comfy and have way too much to live for here ..
what do you define as "scum"?
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I didn't blame the goverment for the twin towers and I didn't blame em for katrina or an earthquake.
I would just as soon all the agencies that are suppossed to stop lightning from striking were disbanded.
I certainly feel embarassed about sending money to the government to stop these poor bums.
I can't imagine any private charity organizations doing a worse job than fema.
lazs
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there is a documentary titled "Unconstitutional: The War" produced by Nonny de la Peņa which pretty much captures how profoundly our civil liberties have been subjugated in the aftermath of the September 11, 2001 attack on our people. I'm of a divided opinion on the issue as there certainly have been historical precedence for these actions in other times of war but never has the gov't wielded so much power as it does in this information age. I'm not a liberal by any stretch never the less de la Peņa's expose is thoughtfully done and makes very valid points. catch it on the communist channel er sundance channel if you have any interest in the topic.
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I would be a lot more impressed if they didn't manufacture a "terrorist cell" out of seven dumb azzes and then go arrest them.
I hope that they at least have some "real" investigations going on.
shamus
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you have the right to revolt, now get busy.
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Originally posted by storch
the home boys could not shoot back as the only assault weapon they had was hiphop on a boom box.
Ok, that was worthy of a :rofl
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Jack Bauer could kick Chuck Norriss' arse!
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Originally posted by storch
there is a documentary titled "Unconstitutional: The War" produced by Nonny de la Peņa which pretty much captures how profoundly our civil liberties have been subjugated in the aftermath of the September 11, 2001 attack on our people. I'm of a divided opinion on the issue as there certainly have been historical precedence for these actions in other times of war but never has the gov't wielded so much power as it does in this information age. I'm not a liberal by any stretch never the less de la Peņa's expose is thoughtfully done and makes very valid points. catch it on the communist channel er sundance channel if you have any interest in the topic.
Why does,
observing: "civil liberties have been subjugated in the aftermath of the September 11, 2001 attack" = liberal
?
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it doesn't necessarily but the slant/bias of the author is clear. did you see the documentary? furious (and others) if you aren't familiar with de la Peņa's work, there is "the whistleblower", "jaundiced eye" and "death on the job" all of her stuff is critically acclaimed and quite compelling even though she is clearly a shill for the far left. hell her work is underwritten by the ACLU. what could possibly be more indicative of her bias than that?
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Originally posted by Shamus
I would be a lot more impressed if they didn't manufacture a "terrorist cell" out of seven dumb azzes and then go arrest them.
I hope that they at least have some "real" investigations going on.
shamus
hmmm
Timothy James McVeigh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh) never stuck me as the sharpest knife in the drawer but he and his dumb arse side-kick seemed to manage just fine
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8e/Murrah_Building_-_Aerial.jpg)
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Originally posted by storch
it doesn't necessarily but the slant/bias of the author is clear. did you see the documentary?
No, I haven't, but I understand better what you were saying now.
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Originally posted by storch
it doesn't necessarily but the slant/bias of the author is clear. did you see the documentary? furious (and others) if you aren't familiar with de la Peņa's work, there is "the whistleblower", "jaundiced eye" and "death on the job" all of her stuff is critically acclaimed and quite compelling even though she is clearly a shill for the far left. hell her work is underwritten by the ACLU. what could possibly be more indicative of her bias than that?
an edit upon further consideration of your previous question.
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Originally posted by Eagler
hmmm
Timothy James McVeigh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh) never stuck me as the sharpest knife in the drawer but he and his dumb arse side-kick seemed to manage just fine
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8e/Murrah_Building_-_Aerial.jpg)
Are you saying the government set up McVeigh like they did these morons and just kinda missed the arrest?, I know some think that, I always found it a bit unbelievable..you surprise me.
shamus
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Please explain what you mean by "setup". Is there some information you are privy to that has not already been publicised?
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Originally posted by Maverick
Please explain what you mean by "setup". Is there some information you are privy to that has not already been publicised?
They were so poor that the FBI:
Bought them those dangerous boots, uniforms and even helped to rent the car so they could go take pics with the camera they bought for them.
It wasn't a setup, so quit saying that!
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Originally posted by Maverick
Please explain what you mean by "setup". Is there some information you are privy to that has not already been publicised?
Nope, I am sure we have access to the same info, you think this was high quality police work?.
I'm sure that al-Quaeda hopes that this is an example our hard core investigative technique.
Stings are the lazy way out, wont catch the smart ones and I would think you would know that.
shamus
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Originally posted by Eagler
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8e/Murrah_Building_-_Aerial.jpg)
What better proof than this to show that Islamic terrorists, home grown or foreign, aren't the only terrorist threat to this country.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Shamus
Are you saying the government set up McVeigh like they did these morons and just kinda missed the arrest?, I know some think that, I always found it a bit unbelievable..you surprise me.
shamus
Incredible as it may seem, there's more evidence supporting THAT goofy theory than there is for those two dullard tools pulling it off.
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Folks,
Point 1: Anybody that has ever read any of the Darwin Awards, or News of the Weird can figure out pretty quickly that MOST criminals (and terrorists) aren't too smart. That doesn't mean that they aren't dangerous to innocent people.
If they got those idiots in Florida before they figured out how to mix ammonium nitrate and diesel fuel and take a truckload over to the sears tower, thats fine. If they roped them because they were so blatantly stupid as to think a FBI guy was their AQ link, that just goes to prove point 1. I think I'd rather have the FBI or DHS out there roping these guys instead of watching headline news tell me about the bodycount and asking how the Bush administration could have failed to protect innocent lives.
I'm in the DC Area, where a couple of idiots (Malvo & Mohammed) with a gun running around shooting people from the trunk of their car caused a whole lot of trouble. Not geniuses by any shake of the imagination, but a whole lot of innocent folks died nonetheless.
They might catch 100 shoe-bombers or idiots thinking they are talking to AQ about buying explosives before they catch 1 guy with the potential to really hurt a lot of innocent people, but I still want them out there trying to get that 1 really-nasty guy.
EagleDNY
$.02
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Originally posted by Shamus
Nope, I am sure we have access to the same info, you think this was high quality police work?.
I'm sure that al-Quaeda hopes that this is an example our hard core investigative technique.
Stings are the lazy way out, wont catch the smart ones and I would think you would know that.
shamus
First off I really had no opinion as to the quality of the police work. There has been too little information released to make any kind of real assessment of the suspects. I don't recall seeing any IQ scores posted on them.
I don't really give a damn what al queda thinks about it one way or the other. If they think this is the top of the line, fine. Underestimating us as the oposition works in our favor.
Stings catch the lazy, the bright, the stupid and the average. What motivates folks like this is to take the easy way, the greedy way. If they can be caught like this it's just hunky dory with me. I don't require terrorists or criminals to be smart, obviously you do. It doesn't take anyone real smart to blow up a building or start shooting in a crowded place. One might say that that kind of behavior is rather stupid.
In a few operations I have been in some rather bright folks were caught in a sting. I don't know the low lifes that were arrested here and I won't presume they were smart or stupid. I'm just happy that they are off of the street given their motivation and what the wanted to do.
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all worthy sentiments. But dontcha think the Feds are spinning this?
you see anything here that required much more than a local force round up?
anything worthy of a national press briefing?
I don't think I've over-simplified the credibility of the 'threat'.. after all; one of them had actually been to Chicago once. He even seemed to know where the Sears Tower was.
I guess I'm guilty too... since a post in the O'Club on the subject is the local equivelent of a National Press Breifing by the Attorney General of the United States.
:huh
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Originally posted by Shamus
Are you saying the government set up McVeigh like they did these morons and just kinda missed the arrest?, I know some think that, I always found it a bit unbelievable..you surprise me.
shamus
nope, I never said that nor had I even heard of it before
just saying it doesn't take a rocket scientist to blow something or one's self up
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Oklahoma City might have avoided a tragedy if some of those who knew McVeigh had paid more than just passing attention to his delusional and murderous rants.
But nobody did.
Who knows what this other group of retards might have ultimately been capable of if they had managed to make the right connections for getting arms and explosives.
Where there's a will, there's a way. It's a mistake to underestimate their potential.
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eagleDNY, that's why I'm of a torn opinion on the matter, as are most of us I would suspect.
here's the rub. throughout human history far more of humanity has died at hands of our governments than by any other means. this is not conjecture but a documented fact. look back to the moron stalin and what he did to an estimated 30million of his own people. even our own gov't is guilty of some pretty horrendous stuff. there is evidence of involuntary sterilization of blacks and puertoricans. what do you think abortion is truly about? it's the nature of the beast and if we, as a people do not take measures to contain it through legislation then at some point our progeny will find themselves in a situation of having to revolt. coupled with the complete revisionist crap students are fed regarding our proud heritage in another generation only but a few may comprehend the principals this republic was founded upon. it is now the obligation of my generation to pass on, intact those freedoms which were handed to us. If it means that I and my children must die at the hands of a terrorist so be it. better than to lose the freedoms and liberties that make life worth living. what we enjoy today was purchased with blood, the blood of people who also had lives and loved ones. it is our responsibility to be ever vigilant and to be involved in the political process no matter how frustrating it is. the alternative is just not acceptable. don't just post stuff here email you senators and district rep. do so often.
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Anyone expecting the local police forces to catch terrorists and such is bound to be terribly disappointed. Local forces, meaning township, city, county, and metropolitan forces, are almost without exception completely unsuited for seeking out the sort of people who would conspire to and succeed in terrorist activity. They have neither the staff, the funding, the training, nor the time. They do well to keep traffic under control, and deal with "normal" criminal activity. They just don't. I'm no fan of the Federal government by any stretch, but in order to deal with real terrorism, be it homegrown or imported, you're going to have to have the feds. Take it from a formal local law enforcement officer, less than 1% of the local agencies have a prayer, anything they hit on will be pure luck and chance. Hell, a lot of state agencies would have trouble. Even when you DO have time and resources to devote to a task like that, you still need to get lucky and get a break, regardless of how good and how smart you are.
And yes, you'll also end up busting idiots and morons who have no idea what they are doing in the process of actually bagging terrorists and stopping their plans. Same thing happens with every other law enforcement task outside of traffic. Working on a drug task force? You'll no doubt bust at least a couple crews of total incompetent fools and wannabes making illfated attempts to move a bag of pot on your way to catching some one with five bales of pot hidden behind an access panel in a tractor trailer rig.
You follow every lead, until it runs out or results in an arrest, or a dead end. You NEVER know how adept, capable, intent, willing, or successful someone really is until it is all over. When it comes to the possibility of someone committing a terrorist act, in this day and age, you can't just blow it off because they LOOK like total morons. I ran across plenty of people looked for all the world like they couldn't tie their shoes or wipe their bellybutton without a set of instructions and some one there to read them. But they were pretty successful as criminals, despite the fact that they weren't Mensa candidates.
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so storch you'd rather of had your family killed by these losers say at a mall than to have whatever imagined "freedoms" you feel were violated with their arrests?
not me buddy ... best look at a calendar, it ain't 1775 anymore..
you are slipping into the paraniod group, you best go run off and watch for those black copters now .. :noid
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any medium smart crook will be able to kill a lot of people if he doesn't mind getting caught or doesn't really think that part through... Even a really stupid one can kill people if he is suicidal.
Even the FBI and ATF can catch a crook if someone hand feeds em the perps. We are paying a lot of money for police that basicaly sit and wait for us to snitch each other off. Even then... they often get the wrong address even when they write it down. They mostly cause more harm than good.
Uniformed police are a deterent when they are seen. They also generate some revenue by traffic enforcement.
We have far too many police forces in this country. They don't offer us security in any way and often... they destroy liberty.
lazs
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Originally posted by Eagler
so storch you'd rather of had your family killed by these losers say at a mall than to have whatever imagined "freedoms" you feel were violated with their arrests?
You can call me paranoid if you want to write me off, that's fine with me. But in all honesty I beleive that our government's willingness to ignore the consitution is a much greater threat to me, my kids, and our future than AQ could ever dream of being.
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please list these "lost freedoms" and exactly what you can't do today that you could do say in 2000?
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I do believe the greater good is more important than any one individual's life. I do believe that liberty is and always will be paid for in blood. I'm not wholly opposed to the war being executed in afghanistan, iraq and soon to be other places. I agree that it's better to keep them at bay by attacking them at their homes instead of the them attacking us here. but at some point you have the obligation to question governmental power grabbing. don't you think the government may be utilizing this time of national insecurity to further increase it's power over our people? it is very astute of you to notice that it is indeed 230 years since we openly declared war upon a despotic regime. a thinking person can't help but wonder what the founders of our republic would opine about the current state of their legacy. what would John Adams think of the current state of the republic, how about Thomas Jefferson? each successive generation has the responsibility to safeguard those freedoms. it is our generation's time now. eagler, are you not at least a little concerned with the steady erosion of our civil rights and liberties? don't worry if you're not you are in the majority. just as during that time not so long ago one third of the population was on the side of oppression another third opted for a "wait and see" stance and would not commit leaving the difficult task for the final third. you see sir, that the 80/20 rule applies to any difficult task. this one should be no different. In answer to your question, yes you can count me among the ones who will challenge any further intrusions into our civil liberties, I will do so by pressuring my elected representatives repeatedly each and every time a piece of potentially intrusive legislation is brought to my attention. it is my obligation as a beneficiary of those very same freedoms to do so. it should be yours as well.
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anyone who has been to an airport lately knows what it is to lose freedom... looks like those old noir films of nazi gestapo at train stations.... a smile is the rarest thing to see in an airport these days.
The book 1984 gave us all nighmares decades ago when we read it.... nowdays....it seems like no big deal.... "click it or ticket" signs on the freeway... gun control... helmet laws... property confiscation...
As for catching these types of guys.... All of us can do a better job than some fbi or atf clown in an office somewhere. They never catch anyone without our help anyway.
lazs
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Originally posted by Eagler
please list these "lost freedoms" and exactly what you can't do today that you could do say in 2000?
There is nothing magical about Y2K, in fact most of the dissolution of the bill-of-rights began with Lincoln and accelerated with the unratified 16th ammendment. The great depression, WWII, and cold-war/war-on-poverty/war-on-drugs all saw errosion to a greater degree than the war-on-terror has, IMHO.
See, when we are "at war" with something we tend to ignore the loss of freedom. Sadly we have been "at war" (not my term, the term our government uses) with something for a VERY long time now.
-Note: I support the current offensive military (and pseudo-military) actions against islamofascists in Afghanistan/Iraq and all those other countries that the NYT has not leaked yet. It is the war being waged on the bill-of-rights that I protest, and my protestations have nothing to do with the jokers in the subject of this thread either.
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it goes beyond a mere inconvenience at an airport. get pulled over by a law enforcement official who may be having a bad day and see what he can legally do to you. I have personally been detained at a home depot parking lot by INS looking for illegals even though I presented my DL and VR. and don't look hispanic, my english is flawless etc. the guy was bored and possibly didn't like my truck. after of keeping me standing in the hot sun for quite some time I told him I was going to my truck and sit in the A/C he told me no. I told him to F/off and shoot me and got in the truck. after still more time he returned my documentation at which time I taunted the crap outta him. I reported it to INS still no reply though. I'm minding my business and out of the blue the gestapo wants to see my papers. you don't see a problem, you ain't looking around.
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The loss of freedom has been gradual.... creeping socialism and big brotherism..
It is only apparent if you have lived through more than a couple of decades and can compare then to now.
lazs
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edbert is right it begins with the northern war of aggression when President Lincoln first suspended habeus corpus.
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Originally posted by storch
eagleDNY, that's why I'm of a torn opinion on the matter, as are most of us I would suspect.
here's the rub. throughout human history far more of humanity has died at hands of our governments than by any other means.
It is a sad comment on humanity that your statement is true. As a 'history-geek' myself, I frequently find it appalling how little of our history most people know these days. We've got students graduating high school that can't tell you who the president is, or when the civil war was fought, or what amendment to the constitution guarantees freedom of religion. Without this link to our past, I wonder how they expect to lead our nation into the future.
I worry about the direction our government it taking - sure I do. I'm not so worried about the administration, which by it's nature goes through a referendum every 4 years, than I am about congress and the courts though. When I see congress pass a law limiting my freedom of speech during the political campaign season, I get upset and people hear about it. When I see the courts uphold the proposition that it is OK for local governments to use eminent domain to kick people off their land so that we can have another shopping mall or condo development, I think the founding fathers must be spinning in their graves.
Terrorism, by it's very nature, cannot beat us militarily. That doesn't mean that it isn't a threat to our freedoms however. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness doesn't hold up well to suicide bombers and nutbag snipers. Do I think it was some great constitutional affront to let the NSA listen in on international cell phone calls - no, if the terrorists were using pack radios instead of prepaid cell phones it wouldn't even be a question. Do I want the government monitoring international banking to track terrorist funding - damn right I do. Do I think the idiots who leaked the story to the NY Times did this country a disservice - damn right I do.
Yes, I agree that we do have to watch out for encroachment on our freedoms from all sides. We are going to have to strike a balance between privacy and security, and the debate will be ongoing as to what we should allow the government to do in the name of security. The beauty of our system is that when We the People think things have gone too far, we will be able to speak, and vote, and change things for the better.
EagleDNY
$.02
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Originally posted by storch
it goes beyond a mere inconvenience at an airport. get pulled over by a law enforcement official who may be having a bad day and see what he can legally do to you. I have personally been detained at a home depot parking lot by INS looking for illegals even though I presented my DL and VR. and don't look hispanic, my english is flawless etc. the guy was bored and possibly didn't like my truck. after of keeping me standing in the hot sun for quite some time I told him I was going to my truck and sit in the A/C he told me no. I told him to F/off and shoot me and got in the truck. after still more time he returned my documentation at which time I taunted the crap outta him. I reported it to INS still no reply though. I'm minding my business and out of the blue the gestapo wants to see my papers. you don't see a problem, you ain't looking around.
I soooooooooooooooooooooo wish this would happen to Rip and Eagler. Every frakin day. Every time they try to get on a freeway, or go pick up a family member at the airport... You get it. I get it. They won't till they've been 'detained'.
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srry hang, that sort of stuff just is not happening to the vast majority of americans. If it were happening, I doubt ether of us would be spending any time on this hilarious bsb.
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yet.
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Originally posted by storch
...eagler, are you not at least a little concerned with the steady erosion of our civil rights and liberties?...
Oh, he would be all up in arms about it if a non-christian democrat was in office. If this was, say, hillary's doing, he wouldn't be able to stop railing against the injustices of the administration.
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my right to lawfully own a semi automatic rifle was severely infringed while bill clinton occupied the oral office and the socialists ruled congress. That was without comparrison to anything that has happened as a result of the security measures enacted after the attacks of 9/11. Fortunately that BS law had a sunset provision......sort of like (GASP) the patriot act, which so many of you seem to fear worse than any suicide attack :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Hangtime
I soooooooooooooooooooooo wish this would happen to Rip and Eagler. Every frakin day. Every time they try to get on a freeway, or go pick up a family member at the airport... You get it. I get it. They won't till they've been 'detained'.
got a speeding ticket a couple of years ago on the way to catch a plane
I was speeding, and the cop was a storch ... does that count?