Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: F4UDOA on November 03, 2000, 10:15:00 AM
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Gents,
I have heard mostly Republican opinions on this board about what a great thing it would be to have a Republican president this term. But I cannot, to save my life think of one campain issue between the two parties that would help me if Bush were elected. So I will break down the issues as I know them and give my reasons for voting for Gore.
STICK TO THE ISSUES. If you have and additional issue list it next in order. But it has to be a campain issue.
1. Medicare Reform
I have only heard Gore give actual numbers on the percentgae of people covered by his plan. Bushes plan, according to Bush, forces some seniors to go get there own insurance with no cost regulation on the insurance companies. I don't like that and I know the Republicans are backed by the insurance companies and the Democrats are backed by the Doctors. My wife is a Physical therapist so I hear daily horror stories about HMO's deneying care to people who need it. Both Doctors and HMO's can be greedy, but a greedy HMO can kill you. To make it simple for everyone Republicans=insurance companies Democrats=Doctors. I Pick-Democrats
2.Social Security reform
Gore wants to lock it up and Bush wants to let people keep some of the money to invest themselves.
Bushes plan may put a couple of extra dollars in my pocket now but the idea of people who cannot currently save money being able to save it with an extra 10 dollars a week in their paychecks is unrealistic. The loss of this money now is an inconvienance. The loss of that money when people are 70 years old and unemployable is devastating. I see allot of destitute people in the future with this idea. Remember, this is social "Security", not a 401K. The people with 401K's and IRA's won't need social security. The people who don't have those benifits or forehthought will need it badly. Pick Democrats
3. Abortion
Like it or not Gore is Pro-choice. Bush has always been against abortion however in this campain he has flopped like a fish. I really have no idea what his real stance is. Pro-life can't be happy because he won't say he's against it. In fact I have heard him say he is only against late term abortions.
I give gore the nod because at least he tells you where he stands. Pick Democrats
4. Gun control
Bush again will not give any specifics on what he wants or doesn't want for gun control. Howver he has said that he is in favor of a 24 hour waiting period at gun shows. I like that. Gore is the most friendly democrat toward guns owners that I know of. However he is in favor of forcing gun owners to get a license. Like a drivers license. I luv this idea. It puts a little responabilty with the people who claim to be responable. He doesn't want to restrict any sportsman, hunters or farmers. The people who really need their guns. He is also in favor of manditory child safety locks. A real no brainer. Pick Democrats
5. Military spending
I have heard this in the debates from both sides. Gore's plan spends three times more money on the military than Bushes. I am in favor of spending that money. pick democrats
6.Economy
During the late Reagan years and the Bush years the American economy was in the worst recession since the great depression. Clinton steps in and the economy grows at it's greatest rate ever. I do not believe in coincidence and I have a long memory. I just watched a clip of George Bush senoir in 1992 saying how bad the economy would be if the democrats get in office in 1992. He was wrong by the widest margin in history. The sign of a good Republican is someone who makes money in a bad economy. I can't afford another Bush economy. Pick Democrats
7. Bringing people together and uniting both parties.
I have no idea what this means but Bush has been saying it for the entire campain. It is another promise that has no accountability attatched to it. It means nothing and comes on the heels of the greatest partisan witch hunt of all time. Kenneth star.
Pick Democrats, just because Bush brought it up.
8. Foriegn Policy
I haven't heard either canidate say anything regarding this that makes me very happy. However Bush has said enough to make me think that he is a bit of an Isolationest. I do not like that. The world is much to small for that kind of thinking. Pick Democrats, but not a strong pick.
9. Civil rights
Fundamentally I am a democrat. No reason to babble. pick Democrat
10. Envirement
Duh. Pick Democrat
BTW, the Texas Polution is the worst in the country.
11. Education
Very important. Bush is in favor of school vouchers. Taking tax money from the public schools and giving it to religious orinizations in the hope that they will do something to educate with it. In the past the Republican party has cut Univercity funding in the Reagan and Bush era.
Gore is not in favor of vouchers and would give a 10,000 dollar tax deduction to families sending a child to colledge.
I am so adversely opposed to giving religious orginizations tax dollars I would risk going to jail to not pay this tax. It is against the constitution and support some of the most corrupt, unregulated, tax free and wealthest orginizations in this country or the world. We might as well go back to the dark ages if we depend on these groups for help. Pick very strongly democrat.
Also the Texas education sytem is the worst in the country.
That is my list. Add to it if you wish but stick to the format. One topic at a time.
Later
F4UDOA
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quick question, why do you think the government owes you or anybody else anything? What happened to personal responsiblity. If I dont save then its my own freaking fault I am broke when I am old.
I want the government out of my life as much as possibile. I sure as hell dont wanna pay for Bill gates prescription drugs, which we would do under Gores plan.
We may not agree but at least your voting, I think we can agree that is a good thing.
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Dnil---Skyhawk until I get Dnil back :)
Maj. 900th Bloody Jaguars
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer (http://www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer)
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can you say "Yellow Dog Democrat?"
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F4UDOA
Heard CNN is looking for another talking head. I think you'd qualify.
Eagler
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the ecomony was bad during bush's term but -
- who was controlling congress then?
- who has controlled congress during Clinton's term?
hmmmm? - are you going to attribute the economic growth to the president alone? it seems to me that business people grew this country not clinton - what did he do that really changed anything? there was no specific policy or act that changed things from him - he was just in office at the time - also, where was the internet in the 80's? most of the big new jobs are from the technology sector - the rest is pretty flat - I pay about a 1/4 of what i make in regular taxes and over 45% on bonuses and commissions - 45%! - so i can help pay for a bunch of people to get together and sing kumbaya and say a bunch of feel-goody things about each other? just let me keep my money thats the only campaign issue i care about
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I want more local control government and less big gov'tment. That means a Republican vote.
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Everybody is entitled to their vote, F4U. However, after reading your positions on the issues, I strongly recommend that you vote for Ralph Nader.
<S>
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"I can't afford another Bush economy. Pick Democrats"
This says it all for me .
I do remember what it's like not having full employment at work . It wasn't pretty . Better now , much better (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I'm voting mostly on education. To me vouchers are a no brainer. You can talk about school accountability all you want, but there is no greater accountability factor than giving parents the ability to choose another school if the ones their kids are stuck in is not working.
There is a real problem in disparity among schools, we've basically moved from racial segregation in schools to economic segregation. That the civil rights touting democrats would balk so strongly at the idea of giving poorer children the opportunity to attend their private schools is enlightening to say the least. To me this is the single strongest option available to keep economic mobility within our society.
Religion is another matter entirely, and admittedly clouds the issue, but it is a fact that religous sponsored schools are some of the best in the country. Do we deny poor children the ability to attend these schools based on religion alone?
Given that all ivy league schools have a very strong religous history, are you prepared to cut federal assistance to attend those as well? Personally I am an athiest, but if/when I have kids I'm going to send them whereever they will get the best education, I could care less what religous affiliation it has.
Voting Bush.
-Fatty
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Run Pat Run,,,,
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One IMPORTANT thing to remember F4UDOA.
Both Bush and Gore have plans. Thats all they are. Plans... It takes the approval of congress (both houses) to pass anything either men put fourth. In reality, the President has to work WITH congress to hammer out compromises. Its a wonderful thing really.
Clinton has had a terrible relationship with congress. Thats the truth. Gore will likely (by his rhetoric) continue the adversarial relationship with congress. I believe Bush will work WITH congress to get good legislation passed for the good of the people.
Another point: I have discovered that if a man has the balls to speak out for my right to own firearms, most everything else he thinks falls pretty much into my line of thinking regarding military, social and fiscal policies. 2nd Amendment, thats my litmus test.
Yeager
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1. Medicare Reform
From Bush's Website:
Governor Bush will reform Medicare by providing seniors with a prescription drug benefit as well as the ability to choose their own modern, comprehensive health plan. Governor Bush’s plan will cover all prescription drug expenses for low-income seniors, the full cost of Medicare premiums for low-income seniors, at least part of the premium cost for all seniors, and the cost of catastrophic Medicare costs for all seniors.
From Gore's Website:
Expanding Access to Health Care Coverage
Expand eligibility under the Children's Health Insurance Program (CHIP...Expand health care coverage to working families by extending CHIP to parents...Provide affordable health care options for Americans ages 55 to 65 with a 25 percent tax credit to buy into Medicare....Make health insurance more affordable for small businesses by offering a 25 percent tax credit for the premium costs of each employee.
Gore would strengthen Medicare through price competition among managed care plans and cost savings for competitive pricing.
Improving Medicare with a Prescription Drug Benefit: As President, Al Gore will expand Medicare to help seniors and people with disabilities afford prescription drugs.
Pretty much the same rhetoric except for one thing. Bush mentions CHOICE. Gore just makes old programs bigger.
Bush for me, I like choice.
2.Social Security reform
Bush:
Governor Bush believes Social Security is a defining American promise that must be kept. He will not change benefits in any way for current retirees or those near retirement. But to save Social Security for the next generation, he will lead a bipartisan effort to reform it by giving individuals the option of voluntarily investing a portion of their Social Security payroll taxes in personal retirement accounts. These accounts will earn higher rates of return and generate wealth that can be owned and passed on from parents to their children.
Gore:
Saving Social Security
Devote all Social Security Surpluses to Social Security and debt reduction.
Oppose efforts to raise the retirement age or reduce benefits by privatizing the system.
Improving fairness for Widows, Widowers and Mothers by giving parents credit toward Social Security for up to five years spent raising children -
Retirement Savings Plus Accounts:
Voluntary contributions, with a generous match that offers the greatest rewards for saving to lower-income Americans.
Securing Pensions for Working Americans: to expand pension portability, simplify the pension process for small businesses and protect employee pension funds.
There is no "social security surplus". They've ALL been playing numbers games with Social Security money since the '50's at least. No one is talking about raising the retirement age, privatizing or reducing benefits either. Everyone in the Congress is afraid to even mention SS, let alone actually change it.
Extra credit for non-workers who raised children? Who should pay for that? The folks that worked AND raised children? THAT doesn't seem too fair. Retirement Savings accounts with a GENEROUS MATCH? Guess we'll use tax money to make that Generous Match..so this is another transfer of wealth program...Democrats are famous for this.
"A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul."
-George Bernard Shaw
At least the portable pension has merit.
Still, Bush is going to leave things as they are for the Seniors (fair enough..this is even better than the deal they ORIGINALLY signed into and give the young guys a chance to put a small bit of THEIR OWN cash away for themselves in a "self-directed" savings mode?
"I believe that every individual is naturally entitled to do as he pleases with himself and the fruits of his labor, so far as it in no way interferes with any other men’s rights."
-Abraham Lincoln
Did I mention Choice? Bush for me again.
3. Abortion
Bush:
Life Issues: Pro life with exceptions for rape, incest and life of the mother
Set the goal that all children should be welcomed in life and protected by law
Supports parental notification, banning use of taxpayer funds for abortion, and banning partial birth abortion
Supports efforts to increase adoptions
Opposes doctor assisted suicide, believes the role of a doctor is to relieve pain and suffering, not to end life
Make permanent the $5,000 adoption tax credit
Gore:
Protecting Women's Right to Choose: Al Gore believes that there is no challenge more fundamental than protecting women's reproductive health. Al Gore will fight to guarantee women the right to choose and make abortion safe, legal, and rare while making significant investments in family planning and education. Freedom of choice also means freedom from fear in making that choice, and we must not allow a woman's right to choose to be taken away by those who resort to violence.
Serious Question: Can anyone tell me where in the US a woman does NOT currently have the right to "choose" and where it is that abortion is NOT "safe, legal". AS far as I can tell, any woman can get an abortion anywhere in any of several safe, legal clinics.
So what is the big deal here? Ever since Roe V Wade abortion has been legal.
I suspect the REAL argument is over whether the government is going to provide free abortion using tax dollars of all citizens.
Gore is making a big deal out of an issue that has long been decided. So it's no issue.
Highly unlikely ANYONE can get Roe overturned, so non-issue there. Bush less likely to support government funded "personal choice" (Hey, it's YOUR choice...you pay for it!) I'll go Bush.[/b]
4. Gun control
Bush: Governor Bush believes the best gun control measure is to vigorously prosecute those who illegally sell guns, those who illegally carry guns, and those who illegally commit crimes with guns. Governor Bush’s priority as President will be to keep guns away from criminals and juveniles. He will make federal gun prosecutions a top priority, reversing the 46% decline in federal gun prosecutions under the Clinton-Gore Administration. In addition, he will protect law-abiding citizens’ constitutional Second Amendment rights while at the same time enacting reasonable, common-sense restrictions on the unsafe use of firearms.
Gore believes we must:
Increase penalties for gun-related crimes.
Hire new federal, state, and local gun prosecutors to get gun criminals off the street and put them behind bars.
Require gun manufacturers and federally-licensed sellers to report gun sales to a state authority.
Oppose weakening restrictions on concealed weapons and ban concealed weapons from places of worship.
GETTING GUNS OUT OF THE HANDS OF CRIMINALS
Require every buyer of a handgun to obtain a state-issued photo license, after passing a background check and safety test.
Ban so-called "junk guns" and assault weapons.
Limit handgun purchases to one-a-month and require a three-day waiting period for handgun purchases.
Fight to close the Gun Show Loophole that exempts unlicensed gun dealers at shows from the Brady Law, allowing them to sell guns without a background check.
Oppose special legal protections for gun manufacturers.
PROTECTING CHILDREN FROM GUNS
Require child-safety locks for all new handguns.
Raise the minimum age to possess a handgun from 18 to 21.
Prohibit juveniles from possessing assault rifles and large capacity ammunition clips.
Support Gun-Free Schools, requiring states to adopt a policy of mandatory 1-year expulsion for any student who brings a gun to school.
Extend the Brady Law to violent juveniles, barring youth convicted of serious violent crimes in juvenile court from owning firearms as adults.
I like the FAR GREATER emphasis Bush puts on punishing those criminals who use guns for violent crime. Gore has way to much interest in restricting (Don't restrict the good guys! Prosecute the bad guys!)the law abiding citizens who are not the problem.
Bush again, what a suprise.
5. Military spending
Bush:
Restore the morale of our armed forces.
Insist that deployments have well-defined objectives. Focus on defending the American homeland. Prepare the military for the challenges of the information age. Begin to build the military of the future.
GORE:
Rewarding the Men and Women in Uniform with Competitive Pay.
Reforming the Military Housing System.
Improving Family Services.
Investing in Health Care.
Fulfilling the Promise to Take Care of Retirees. Getting Our Soldiers Off Food Stamps Now. Increasing the Investment in Advanced Hardware. Supporting a Healthy Industrial and Technology Base.National Missile Defense. America must maintain its nuclear strength, with adequate offensive forces to ensure deterrence and to be ready to participate in peacekeeping, humanitarian, and other efforts.
Bush wants to start bringing US troops home from overseas. Gore doesn't, leans toward more involvement in forein problems. The rest of it is political boilerplate. Let me see...yup, Bush.
6.Economy
Bush:
Governor Bush believes that roughly one-quarter of the surplus should be returned to the people who earned it through broad tax cuts – otherwise, Washington will spend it. His plan will promote economic growth and increase access to the middle class by cutting high marginal rates. It will also double the child credit, eliminate the death tax, reduce the marriage penalty, and expand Education Savings Accounts and charitable deductions. The largest percentage cuts will go to the lowest income earners. As a result, 6 million families will no longer pay federal income tax.
Gore:
Help Working Families Care for Children and Aging Parents
Making child care more affordable for working families by making the Child and Dependent Care Tax Credit (CDCTC) refundable for the first time.
Providing tax relief for stay-at-home-parents: and expand family leave for those working outside the home.
Helping parents pay for after-school care through a new refundable After-School Tax Credit (ASTC) for children age 16 and under.
Supporting families with long-term care needs through a $3,000 tax credit.
Helping families pay for college with the College Opportunity Tax Cut that allows families to take a tax credit or tax deduction for tuition.Reward Work and Family
Expanding the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC).
Marriage penalty tax relief by raising the standard deduction, so that a married couple would get the same standard deduction as if they remained single.
Simplifying estate tax exemptions and raising the tax exemption for small businesses and family farms.
Lets' see.
Bush Plan: Tax Cut...those who paid the most in get the most back, those that paid the least in get the least back. Seems fair.
Gore Plan: Tax Cut and Credits. (Huge Democratic Transfer of Wealth Plan) Those that paid the most in get NOTHING back...maybe 25% of the taxpayers in this category. Those that paid the least in get some back plus some bonus matches paid by those who got NOTHING BACK. Those that paid NOTHING in get money back and bonus matches all paid for by those who got NOTHING BACK.
If there's going to be some redistribution of my paycheck, I'd like to redistribute it to the old folks in my family that have NOTHING. I'd like to do the redistributing myself.
Bush again. [/b]
7. Bringing people together and uniting both parties.
This isn't a campaign issue, it's a delusion. Washington is Washington and Politics is Politics. The people and the National interest come after lining your own pocket. No one can change it either.
Ran out of time on the rest of it. I suggest you folks that are undecided make a visit to the Bush and Gore websites. There is a great deal more information on specific issues than I clipped for this post.
While most of it is probably political fertilizer, it does lay out the position more clearly than the news media does.
It's "in their own words" so to speak, rather than distilled through the "talking heads" of the media.
TTFN
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 11-03-2000).]
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AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH I voted 2 weeks ago (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
go Bush go!
udie
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Go, Gore, go!!!
F4UDOA,
Nice write up.
Udie,
You're from Texas and I'm from California. Like it matters who you and I vote for in the Presidential race. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Local issues yes, but we all know Texas is a gimme to Bush and California is a gimme to Gore.
Sisu
-Karnak
[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 11-03-2000).]
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Well, about the vouchers and religious schools:
You run into a fundamental problem; the separation of church from state. if state money goes to support religions through various way, you have a hole.
If parents want to indoctrinate their children, lettum pay for it themselves (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
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Bush wants less government involvement in my life: 1 for Bush
Al Gore reminds me of a sleazy door-to-door salesman: 2 for Bush
A Republican Congress was behind the scenes of "the greatest economic growth ever.":draw
Bush wants to give me a few more dollars to invest as I see fit, instead of financing the retirement of short-sighted people who didn't save enough. :3 for Bush
Bush wants to give me the means to send my kids to a different school if the public school sucks. :4 for Bush
I'm not so much Pro-Bush as I am Anti-Gore. The guy reeks of insincerity.
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
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F4UDOA - Some of your fellow Jews have arrived at different conclusions after reviewing the same set of facts about the candidates. Check it out
http://www.rjchq.org/index2.html (http://www.rjchq.org/index2.html)
Gunthr
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Who do you guys think you're fooling?
You're voting for Bush because he is republican. PLAIN AND SIMPLE.
If Bush said he was goign to cut down all the forests in america, you would do your very best to find a slant were that idea would be productive to society. Geez.
[This message has been edited by Igloo (edited 11-04-2000).]
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Originally posted by StSanta:
If parents want to indoctrinate their children, lettum pay for it themselves (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Your statement is simply dishonest. The government is using my money to fund a public education even though my kids are in private schols. In effect, I'm paying for government indoctrinating someone else's kids. According to your logic those who like their kids indoctinated by the libs, should pay for it themselves.
I like that. To hell with public education.
[This message has been edited by mietla (edited 11-04-2000).]
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Not true Igloo!
I am simply tired of Bill Clinton. He has been the most disgraceful, deceitful, disgusting, repulsive backwater moron of a President this nation has ever had. Says alot about the nation doesnt it.
Al Gore is up to his nostrils in Bill Clinton residue! Thats why I would rather vote for Nader than Gore.
Bush is a hell of a lot more preferable than Nader. Thats why Im voting for Bush.
Yeager
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Hate to break it to you, the goverment already both directly and indirectly funds religious affiliated schools, but at present it's largely limited to colleges and universities. With the present public school system, a large portion of kids will never be prepared to take advantage of that though.
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From my "point of view":
When AH went to 30$/month it costs 176 Finnish Marks. Now I pay 210fim... +15% (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
I sure hope you got a president who turns your economy downhill.... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Good thing is you cannot have Clinton (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Fatty, could you give me some references?
I have some friends who are quite interested in taking such practises to court. And have done in the past.
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
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Originally posted by Igloo:
Who do you guys think you're fooling?
You're voting for Bush because he is republican. PLAIN AND SIMPLE.
If Bush said he was goign to cut down all the forests in america, you would do your very best to find a slant were that idea would be productive to society. Geez.
[This message has been edited by Igloo (edited 11-04-2000).]
Igloo,
Who do you think you are lecturing??? You aren't a citizen and your opinion is of no consequence.
You are in favor of a guy who can't tell reality from fantasy, truth from lies. OH YEAH that really makes him fit to be president....
Mav
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Santa, most any federally sponsored college grant/loan/scholarship is applicable to any college's tuition, be that college public or private, so long as said college is accredited.
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Say, what has Clinton-Gore been doing the last 7 or so years??? Shouldn't all of these problems have been fixed or at least have a solution ready to be signed by Clinton?? Man, they had 4 years of total control!!!!! Yet we still have all the same problems we had 8 years ago!! Clinton-Gore had a middle-class tax cut as part of their campaign in 1992. In this time of "surplus" I still see no middle-class tax cut!!
Well, change is going to be a great thing:Bush by a landslide!!
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Originally posted by StSanta:
You run into a fundamental problem; the separation of church from state. if state money goes to support religions through various way, you have a hole.
You seem to forget that not every private school is affiliated to a particular religion.
There ARE fine non-sectarian private schools, Montessori schools are just one example. My boys BOTH attended Montessori schools in the early grades and I personally believe it made a big difference in their Math and Reading abilities.
Under Bush's plan, vouchers would be valid for a Montessori school.
Further, once vouchers are implemented, I believe you would see a larger number of good private schools open.
If you subsidize something you get more of it. If we were to actually subsidize something worth having for a change...GOOD SCHOOLS....why would we not want to do that?
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Originally posted by Igloo:
You're voting for Bush because he is republican. PLAIN AND SIMPLE.
Ah, I love irony.
The one guy that NEVER posts supportable FACT on this BBS, relying totally on his own often provably incorrect OPINION....
...accusing people of not researching issues and arriving at their own decisions.
Gotta love it!
(http://smilecwm.tripod.com/net6/jump3.gif) (http://smilecwm.tripod.com/net6/jump3.gif) (http://smilecwm.tripod.com/net6/jump3.gif) (http://smilecwm.tripod.com/net6/jump3.gif) (http://smilecwm.tripod.com/net6/jump3.gif)
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Toad, have you ever voted Democrat?
BTW, saying that Clinton had 8 years to fix all the problems, yada, yada, yada, is ignorant. The economy has never been so good. That did not happen by accident. George duubelyah Bush's father did not do nearly as much for the economy as Clinton. Infact, when Bush was president, even the Canadian dollar was higher than the US.
Did anyone see what George Bush did while on Letterman during the commercial break? Letterman's assistant was standing beside George, talking to Dave. George took of his glasses, looked around, and cleaned them on her shirt, then put them back on, without letting her know what he did.
As David Letterman said, it was just an example of George being himself. Classless.
What do I care anyways, go ahead and elect him, it's not my country that will take a nosedive.
George Bush doesn't exactly tell the truth either. He refuses to answer questions about doing cocaine (wonder why). He refused to disclose his 1976 DUI charge. What else is going to come up?
As I said in another string, he also believes that "the jury is still out on evolution". In the 21st century, to have someone running for president believing evolution does not exist is a sign something is wrong.
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Huh ?
We all know Darwin was a fool without knowledge... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Let me ask once again, why haven't we seen a middle class tax cut proposed by the Clinton-Gore team????
You should be able to answer that simple question!!! In 1992 Clinton-Gore promised that cut!!!
(Hint: Dems think all money belongs to the government)
This is just one question I would like you Clinton-Gore supporters to answer.
We will move on to other questions if you can provide an answer (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by 1776 (edited 11-05-2000).]
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I see no one has answered(not at all surprised!!) I will answer it for you then (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Clinton-Gore just don't have the ability to tell the truth!! Not when they are campaigning or governing("I did not have sexual relations withe that women, Ms Lewinsky")
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Yeah, a middle class tax cut and the government has collected billions more than required by the fiscal budgets!
Robbery?
Everytime the congress tried to free up some money to give back top the people, the president vetoed the bill.
Y
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This same President who denies you your own money is also expecting an apology from the people for impeachment!!!!
[This message has been edited by 1776 (edited 11-05-2000).]
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Originally posted by SR:
"I can't afford another Bush economy. Pick Democrats"
This says it all for me .
I do remember what it's like not having full employment at work . It wasn't pretty . Better now , much better (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
You do realize that this economy is not Clinton's doing. It is policies and procedures set in place by Reagan and then Bush. Since when does something happen that fast in politics or business which an administration would see in its own term? Never. Just as Clinton's short comings will fall on the next admin thus they will be credited with the failure though it was set in motion by the last eight years of poor government/choices.
Get a grip
Eagler
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Funny how do democrat ever brings up the first 2 years of Clinton/Gore, you know when the democrats controlled the executive AND legislative branches. They didn't do squat but raise taxes, even on the elderly, and try and take over the healthcare system. The economy was starting to improve in late 91 and 92, at least here in Tx. Realy it started getting better in late 89 early 90 in Houston.
Udie
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Gents,
I don't know why you republicans are still in luv with Bush because of his Middle class tax cut plan. I just watched Rep Sen. John Mcain and Dem Sen. Kerry on CNBC talking about how 40% of the surplus has already been spent by your your Republican congress.
Yes it's true, it gone, 40% gone.
Do you think George W. doesn't know that? But yet he can't seem to stop promising everybody that money. Do you call that a lie? At least Gore isn't promising people money that doesn't exist. I guess that is what the definition of an honest republican canadate. What do you think of your canidate now that you will get NO tax break? Is he lying about anything else?
The School vouchers are a clear violation of the serparation between church and state. Plain and simple. Especially when it undermines the public school system. Why would you give tax money to some of the wealthiest orginizations in the world today?
Not only are these religious groups wealthy they don't pay taxes and they lobby the congress and George W. So they get goverment money. Gee no taxes and get to teach whatever garbadge they see fit as an eductaion.
And oh yeah, they can discriminate who they want and who they don't want, leaving the public schools with they troubled kids while only admitting the teachable ones. Which is exactly what those schools do now BTW. Great plan!!!
You guy's are a riot. Especially coming from George W. who is Governer in the worst educated state in the USA.
Later
F4UDOA
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Originally posted by F4UDOA:
Gents,
I don't know why you republicans are still in luv with Bush because of his Middle class tax cut plan. I just watched Rep Sen. John Mcain and Dem Sen. Kerry on CNBC talking about how 40% of the surplus has already been spent by your your Republican congress.
Yes it's true, it gone, 40% gone.
Do you think George W. doesn't know that? But yet he can't seem to stop promising everybody that money. Do you call that a lie? At least Gore isn't promising people money that doesn't exist. I guess that is what the definition of an honest republican canadate. What do you think of your canidate now that you will get NO tax break? Is he lying about anything else?
I'm not counting on anything back. I just want them to stop taking it!
The School vouchers are a clear violation of the serparation between church and state. Plain and simple. Especially when it undermines the public school system. Why would you give tax money to some of the wealthiest orginizations in the world today?
Not only are these religious groups wealthy they don't pay taxes and they lobby the congress and George W. So they get goverment money.
WRONG!!!
It's my money! I worked for it not the fat arse politicians. Yes, if I could I would take MY money and put MY child into a private school as the public school system SUCKS!
Gee no taxes and get to teach whatever garbadge they see fit as an eductaion.
And oh yeah, they can discriminate who they want and who they don't want, leaving the public schools with they troubled kids while only admitting the teachable ones. Which is exactly what those schools do now BTW. Great plan!!!
The trash is being taught in the public schools, you have it backwards. And the troublesome kids is another reason I prefer my child in a private school. When was the last time you heard of a Catholic School shooting?
You guy's are a riot. Especially coming from George W. who is Governer in the worst educated state in the USA.
Later
F4UDOA
F4DOA please use the spell checker, are you a product of the lovely public school system?
Eagler
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It's amazing how CNN is now starting to talk about the homeless and that we are all one paycheck from being homeless!!!
I think they know that Bush has won and the House and Senate will be republican.
We haven't heard of the homeless for 7 or so years. Why all of sudden are we now hearing about them??? Didn't Clinton-Gore fix that!!???!!
Of course not!!! Democrats can't fix anything because a resolution to problems would mean they are no longer needed!!
For 50 years now the Dems have been able to count on the Black vote. You would think by now that the Blacks would see that the Dems will only provide crumbs to Black America. A real resolution to race relations wouldn't help the Dems as it would take away
part of their easily scared base!! Same thing for Social Security, Dems want no resolution as they need to scare all retirees in order to remain in power!!!
Democrats are the party of fear and misery!!
The more they can spread the happier they are!!
[This message has been edited by 1776 (edited 11-06-2000).]
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F4UDOA.....
There is a difference between a tax deduction and a Tax Credit...Gores proposal and the offering of it to the public throughout his campaign is pure deception.
People believe like yourself that they can write off 10k from taxable income...not true...10k equates to an additional $800.00 actual deduction in addition to the current $2200.00 deduction allowed.
Vote for who you may, but save us the crap about Clinton/Gore being responsible for the economy...just the fact that you believe they are responsible for our economic growth shows me how very little you understand why we have experienced growth in the first place.
I would share facts with you, however, you have a closed mind and would not falter from the party line I'm sure (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Whoever is the next president, will have the helm when the economy adjusts itself downward and reflects a more true value of itself...neither men would be responsible for this correction as neither would be responsible for its growth....all of us working each day along with the advent of new innovations in the high tech sectors and the growth of secondary markets are what will determine our economic health.
Wish ya the best my liberal friend....hopefully someday you will realize that what is earned is sweeter than what is free (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Ice
[This message has been edited by Ice (edited 11-06-2000).]
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Eagler,
I'm not counting on anything back. I just want them to stop taking it!
Which part of "They already spent the money"
Didn't you understand? The republican congress already spent your precious tax cut.
WRONG!!!
It's my money! I worked for it not the fat arse politicians. Yes, if I could I would take MY money and put MY child into a private school as the public school system SUCKS!
If you want to send your money to a wealthy religious/political group be my guest. But don't send one penny of my money with it. Remeber that little church and state rule? Go ahead and send all of your money there. I'm sure Jerry Farwell(Non tax paying multi-millionare) will spend it on a new house or boat or something. He will pray for you. You need it.
The trash is being taught in the public schools, you have it backwards. And the troublesome kids is another reason I prefer my child in a private school. When was the last time you heard of a Catholic School shooting?
Trash in public schools? Like evolution?
BTW, that's why they call them private schools, Private money. Public schools, public money. Get it? School shootings you say? Well that is a product of the one part of the constitution that you can remember. Although the "well regulated" and the "militia" part you can't seem to remember very well. Maybe one reason why you don't have student violence in Catholic schools is because all of the teenage boys are being anally violated and unable to reach their guns? Oops, I forgot. The Church doesn't like to talk about that.
F4DOA please use the spell checker, are you a product of the lovely public school system?
Why yes I am. A very successfull one too. Philadelphia Public schools. So spelling isn't my strong suit. But you seem to have trouble with reading and comprehension. But I don't think they teach the constitution or the bill of rights in those fancy private schools. BTW, you mispelled my name. It's F4UDOA.
Later
F4UDOA
[This message has been edited by F4UDOA (edited 11-06-2000).]
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Originally posted by F4UDOA:
Maybe one reason why you don't have student violence in Catholic schools is because all of the teenage boys are being anally violated and unable to reach their guns? Oops, I forgot. The Church doesn't like to talk about that.
You are sick and a waste of my time. I will refrain from responding to anymore of your posts as I now consider the source.
Eagler
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Bush's proposals to let the people control more of their own money is going to make America Boom!!! I have checked out the Bush web site with its tax calculator and I will be able to make an additional house payment each year!! That isn't chicken feed!!! Others will spend theirs on goods which in turn will create new jobs and businesses which in turn will create additional revenues for Government which in turn will create additional tax reductions!!!!! This is a win win situation for the American people and their government!!
Now if we are able to invest part of our Social Security.......that money will also be poured into the economy!!! I see only boom times ahead!!!
[This message has been edited by 1776 (edited 11-06-2000).]
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F4U, vouchers are the same thing as scholarships, which we already have consitution or no. They are not sponsoring private schools, they are providing families with the means to help their children attend a good school.
Sure some public schools are great. Others are beyond pitiful. The problem is people are stuck with no choice, and the school's quality typically mirrors the area's economic standing, poor area=no voting power=no improved school. I don't expect that to change with EITHER party, but at least the republicans are looking at giving their kids somewhere better to go to school.
You notice the President and Vice President's kids don't go to public school. Welp, I never said they were stupid.
And F4U, easy on the graphic accusations, your paranoia is showing.
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Ice,
I completely understand the difference between a tax credit and a tax deduction. That is what angers me about the republicans. Take your partisan hat off and follow between the two scenario's.
1. Democrat tax credit= A 10,000 tax deduction on your tax form at the end of the year. That money only benifits the tax payer. If are paying a morgage, that 10,000 dollar tax credit can make you almost 2,000 dollars in your refund check. I am basing this on my last years taxes and how much I would have saved if I were declaring 10,000 dollars less. It's like putting another entire 401K deduction in your taxes.
2. Republican Tax voucher= The Government sends a $500 dollar check to the private school of your choice.
A. This money will never see your pocket.
B. $500 will not pay the tuition of any private school. So this will only affect people that can already afford to send their children to private schools.
C. Their is no garauntee that these schools will not raise their prices just to "gouge" more money from the Goverment and to make sure that border line lower income families will not be able to afford tuition.
D. It is a clear violation Of "Church and State". Their already was a time in history where all education was done by the church. It was called the "Dark Ages". More recently in this country we are 100 years from the Salem Witch burnings. So I think the religious groups in the world have already proven that they are incapable of being responsable for the education of people. They are certainly not known for their acceptance of new idea's. Just ask Copernicus or Galileo.
Thanks
F4UDOA
[This message has been edited by F4UDOA (edited 11-06-2000).]
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How come nobody ever wants to talk about the deviant behavior in some of the religious institutions today? Why do people become offended that I bring it up, but they condone that behavior by supporting these groups and their total unwillingness to deal with the situation. I apologize if my analogy was to graphic for some, but the fact remains that this is a problem with many of these institutions. And the larger problem is the cover up that goes along with it. This is exactly why tax dollars should not go to an unregulated group with no accountability to the public.
BTW, Fatty. The Pesident and the VP send their kids to private schools because they can afford it. That is why they are private. Public schools are offered to people who cannot. I would like to own a warbird but I wouldn't ask the government to help me pay for it.
[This message has been edited by F4UDOA (edited 11-06-2000).]
[This message has been edited by F4UDOA (edited 11-06-2000).]
[This message has been edited by F4UDOA (edited 11-06-2000).]
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Ok, I'll discuss it:
Question: Why do Rabbi's like to do circumcisions?
Answer: Because they get to keep the tips...
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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1776,
Do you remember Reagans trickle down economics? That really made the economy boom didn't it? It didn't work because he forgot one thing. The greed of the wealthy and their unwillingness to let anything trickle down.
But the most important thing for you to remember is this. That tax calculator on Bushes web page is a joke. The money he wants to give you for a tax break has already been spent by the Republcan congress this year. 40% Gone according to Republcan Sen. John MCain and Dem. Sen. Kerry. Whatever he has promised you is gone. Also the money he says he wants to put into his social security plan is gone. It was to come from the same budget surplus as the tax cut.
Do you think he doesn't know that? Just maybe he's saying these things because he knows he can't possibly deliver? You will see none of this budget weather he gets elected or not. It's all election babble.
Blah
Blah
Blah
Later
F4UDOA
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Gunthr,
Very good information there. Did you learn that in slip and fall school?
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A Jewish mother transfers her son, who is doing very poorly in his Jewish school, to a Catholic school where his grades suddenly and dramatically improve.
Mama: My son, how is it that you are doing so much better in this Catholic school?
Boy: Mama, when those nuns showed me that poor boy up on there on that cross, I knew that they meant business. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
---------------------------------------------
By the way, I went to Catholic parochial school. Public school kids in the neighborhood called us "tie-boys" and "curtain crawlers". I went to Mass every morning from 1st to 12th grade. I was an alter boy. I used to jab my buddies in the neck with the gold palette or whatever you call it, as the priest served them communion. I was never sodomized, but one of the priests in our parish was rumored to have a bit of a drinking problem. I always watched him close when he drank the sacramental wine, thinking I would be able to tell if he was a crocky or not, but he hid it well. He finally did have to go and get dried out.
That is the most sordid thing that went on in my Catholic upbringing. I got used to the nuns, and I did wind up with quite a good education.
<S> Gunthr
.
.
.
[This message has been edited by Gunthr (edited 11-06-2000).]
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Maybe one reason why you don't have student
violence in Catholic schools is because all of the teenage boys are being anally violated
and unable to reach their guns? Oops, I forgot. The Church doesn't like to talk about
that.
<sarcasm>Wow-your opinions really matter to me now.</sarcasm> *shakes head in disgust*
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
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I smell a thread-jacker.
Did you ever play hide the sacrament with your favorite Priest? I hear that's a big one with the kids these days.
BTW, what kind of school would you have to be in to get to play with snakes and roll around on the floor shaking? Are they Baptist?
Also do they have school nurses in the Christian Science schools? Or do they just let the kid die right there?
Does L. Ron Hubbard accept school vouchers?
Does Dianetics have Pre-K?
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Originally posted by F4UDOA:
I smell a thread-jacker.
Did you ever play hide the sacrament with your favorite Priest? I hear that's a big one with the kids these days.
BTW, what kind of school would you have to be in to get to play with snakes and roll around on the floor shaking? Are they Baptist?
Also do they have school nurses in the Christian Science schools? Or do they just let the kid die right there?
Does L. Ron Hubbard accept school vouchers?
Does Dianetics have Pre-K?
You are a real piece of work. You prove your ignorance more with each post. There are plenty of private schools that are not affiliated with religion in any way. Also, instead of posting all the negative stereotypes you can fabricate on private schools, why not post some of the positive aspects? How about the fact that over 90% of the students that graduated from the Catholic schools I attended went on to attend college.
What do you suppose the national average is? If you have nothing constructive to contribute, you should consider not revealing any more of your ignorance. I'm not really sure what any of your snipes at religious schools have to do with the election. It seems like you have some personal issues to deal with.
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
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BTW, Fatty. The Pesident and the VP send their kids to private schools because they can afford it. That is why they are private. Public schools are offered to people who cannot. I would like to own a warbird but I wouldn't ask the government to help me pay for it.
This is where the democrats and I disagree the most. I would prefer spending my tax money to enable people a quality education and in doing so the ability to function and earn a quality living. They would evidently prefer lower income families be kept in their own schools, and we'll just give them government programs later when they're adult and illiterate. Giving you an airplane is not quite the same thing.
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I have heard that there is going to be such a huge turnout to vote that only Republicans are to vote on Tuesday. Democrats are to vote Wednesday.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by Igloo:
Toad, have you ever voted Democrat?
Yes. In fact, despite your amusing attempts to paint me as an unthinking Republican party zombie, I have only voted for the Republican Presidential Candidate in 4/8 Presidential elections.
Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has not heart; and any man who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains. "
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
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Gee 1776 you are to smart for me. I heard that George W. was a drug abusing drunk until the age of 40, then failed in three busineses and bought a baseball team. Oh yeah, that's true.
LJK,
I'm ignorant? Well genius those weren't stereo types I was describing. Those are groups that you want the government to fund. What happened to smaller goverment?
Still think I'm lying?
1. True. The Catholic church has a problem with pedophelia that it has never addressed and continues to hide from. Dodging lawsuites around the country and settling out of court to avoid exposure and responsabilty.
2. True-Their are religious groups in the USA that use venomous snakes as part of their religious practices, followed by violent shaking on the group to release the Deamons.
3.True-The Christian scientist are famous for not using doctors or tradional medicine.
In a case in PA. a child died from lackof care and the parents were prosecuted.
4.True-Dianetics is a religion with many thousands of followers. So are the Moonies, Hare Krishna's and several groups of occult warshippers regardless of your feelings to them.
Are all of these valid religions? Yes. Does one or all of them deserve to be goverment funded? No. The Catholic church is one of the wealthest orginizations in the world and they are tax free. Do people have a right to practice their religion? Yes, do they have the right to deny their chidren a functional education? No. Children have the RIGHT to and education that will allow them to function in this world. And tax payers have the right not to fund every golden sheep of a god that pops up in East bumble USA. Wich is exactly what we will be doing if this is past.
I know that you do not have the forethought to look past breakfast. But just imagine for a second all of the people that will pop up claiming to be school teachers around the country under the gise of religion. I can just see the class of 2018 walking down the isle to graduate from the Hale Bop comet High. Ahh, so proud.
F4UDOA
BTW, Why does God need money???
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Toad<S>,
That is a great quote by Sir Winston.
However he was voted out of office the very next term after the war.
As a matter of fact I am the exact opposite. As a younger less sympathetic man I was republican. As an older wiser man I am a Democrat.
Here is another quote you might like.
"To win a hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill"
SUN-TZU
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What the "control freak" liberals forget is a truth so old that the philosophers of the most ancient civilizations espoused it:
"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws."
- Plato (427-347 B.C.)
People have not changed...nor has the nature of those who always "know what's best for you"...
Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters.
-Daniel Webster
The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.
-H.L. Mencken
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber barons cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
-C. S. Lewis
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F4UDOA: Well that is a product of the one part of the constitution that you can remember. Although the "well regulated" and the "militia" part you can't seem to remember very well.
Well, most people accept Thomas Jefferson as an eminent authority on what the Constitution means. Explain these views of his, please:
"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun, therefore, be the constant companion of your walks." --Thomas Jefferson to Peter Carr, 1785. ME 5:85, Papers 8:407
"The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that... it is their right and duty to be at all times armed." --Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824. ME 16:45
"One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them." --Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1796. ME 9:341
"I learn with great concern that [one] portion of our frontier so interesting, so important, and so exposed, should be so entirely unprovided with common fire-arms. I did not suppose any part of the United States so destitute of what is considered as among the first necessaries of a farm-house." --Thomas Jefferson to Jacob J. Brown, 1808. ME 11:432
"No freeman shall be debarred the use of arms (within his own lands or tenements)." --Thomas Jefferson: Draft Virginia Constitution (with his note added), 1776. Papers 1:353
Perhaps you are the one refusing to acknowledge the true intent of the Bill of Rights?
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 11-06-2000).]
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Originally posted by F4UDOA:
LJK,
I'm ignorant? Well genius those weren't stereo types I was describing. Those are groups that you want the government to fund. What happened to smaller goverment?
Still think I'm lying?
1. True. The Catholic church has a problem with pedophelia that it has never addressed and continues to hide from. Dodging lawsuites around the country and settling out of court to avoid exposure and responsabilty.
2. True-Their are religious groups in the USA that use venomous snakes as part of their religious practices, followed by violent shaking on the group to release the Deamons.
3.True-The Christian scientist are famous for not using doctors or tradional medicine.
In a case in PA. a child died from lackof care and the parents were prosecuted.
4.True-Dianetics is a religion with many thousands of followers. So are the Moonies, Hare Krishna's and several groups of occult warshippers regardless of your feelings to them.
Are all of these valid religions? Yes. Does one or all of them deserve to be goverment funded? No. The Catholic church is one of the wealthest orginizations in the world and they are tax free. Do people have a right to practice their religion? Yes, do they have the right to deny their chidren a functional education? No. Children have the RIGHT to and education that will allow them to function in this world. And tax payers have the right not to fund every golden sheep of a god that pops up in East bumble USA. Wich is exactly what we will be doing if this is past.
I know that you do not have the forethought to look past breakfast. But just imagine for a second all of the people that will pop up claiming to be school teachers around the country under the gise of religion. I can just see the class of 2018 walking down the isle to graduate from the Hale Bop comet High. Ahh, so proud.
F4UDOA
BTW, Why does God need money???
School vouchers are not about giving government money to religious schools. Get the facts straight. It's about giving me a choice about where to educate my children. Your statements make absolutely no sense. If I don't want my kids to attend public school, why in the hell would I send them to one of the schools you're describing?
I suggest you research school vouchers a little more, and save the sensationalist "evil religion" stereotypes for someone else. Wtf does the Hale-Bop comet have to do with an opportunity to send my kids to a better school? Are you seriously suggesting that giving parents school vouchers will lead to a nation of abused children in cults?
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
[This message has been edited by LJK Raubvogel (edited 11-06-2000).]
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I am curious about something that I haven't been able to find the answer to. Perhaps someone can edumacate me here.
How does Bush's voucher system work? Meaning, if I want to send my kid to a private school and I obtain a voucher, where does the Government get the money to pay for that voucher? Will they take it out of the money that is already being alloted to public schools? Or does he plan to keep the same ammount of federal money allocated to public schools and then allocating additional money on top of that to pay for these vouchers?
Gordo
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$500.00 of it comes out of the Federal funds to the State, but the State must match that with funds taken from the State's General Education Fund. So much for the Federal Government not dictating a voucher program to the States as Gov. Bush claimed in the 3rd debate. He also claimed that the number od children lacking health care was declining in Texas and rising in the USA as a whole. In reality the opposite is true. I guess he's a compulsive liar too.
Sisu
-Karnak
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Gordo,
As far as I can see, here is the HUGE threat to public education that Bush proposes:
http://www.georgewbush.com/issues/education.html (http://www.georgewbush.com/issues/education.html)
"4. Give Parents More Options from Kindergarten to College:
Publish school-by-school report cards on the Internet to arm parents with information.
Double the number of charter schools through a “Charter School Homestead Fund” to provide $3 billion of loan guarantees for start-up and construction costs.
Expand “Education Savings Accounts” by increasing the annual contributions limit from $500 to $5,000, and allowing funds to be withdrawn tax free to pay for expenses from kindergarten through college.
Establish a $1.5 billion “College Challenge” grant to cover one-third of state costs to establish a merit scholarship program for students who take an advanced or recommended curriculum.
Makes it easier for parent to save early for college by granting complete tax exemption to all qualified pre-paid and tuition savings plans."
Scary stuff, eh?
Sometimes I do wonder if those that oppose such proposals really DO wish American education to be the hallmark of mediocrity. Competition improves the breed. Public schools NEED competition and parents need options.
All this talk of "church and state" is merely a smokescreen. There are nearly as many non-sectarian private schools as there are sectarian schools. Therefore, the argument must be obscured with hobgoblins and strawmen.
What are those that oppose private schools afraid of? That children might actually learn more?
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Amen Toad!(no pun intended)
Competition is a good thing. Case in point: The Department of Defense decided it would accept bids on the Public Works job on the base I am stationed at. They stated that if a private company could underbid the Civil Service employees and use less manpower, while retaining quality, than the job was theirs. Guess what? The Civil Service became really efficient really fast. They also miraculously decided they could do the same job with 300 fewer employees.
Competition among schools can lead to nothing but better education opportunities for our children. No one is talking about financing cults, or financing the Catholic church. But, if my local elementary school is garbage, it would be nice to have an alternative. Also, let's be honest. Do you think it only costs $500 to educate 1 child for a year? The public schools will still get the majority of the subsidy for that student regardless.
Well, the point will be moot in about 24 hours (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
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Originally posted by Toad:
What are those that oppose private schools afraid of? That children might actually learn more?
Good education -> good job -> good income -> self-reliance -> independence from the government -> "leave me alone" attitude -> voting for less government.
The people who depend on the government will vote for more government. And losers will gladly pay for the government goodies with achiever's propery and liberty.
I tend to agree that we are beyond the point of no return. A fundamentally unfair and amoral tax code shifted the burden to those who produce, so the underachievers who don't pay taxes, have no problems with raising them. Clinton/Gore types actually dare to say that they have to "pay" for the tax cut. How ignorant you have to be to buy this line?
For those who produce, the tax cut is relief, the tax increase is a burden.
For the losers, the opposite is true.
It is to the benefit of the liberal government to maintain the public school system, and to keep the public school what it is now: an "ignoramus factory".
mietla
[This message has been edited by mietla (edited 11-06-2000).]
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So, I'm a loser and the Government is supporting me, eh?
Lets see...
I'm making $46,000.00 a year.
I am not delinquent on any of my debts.
I have health insurance through my workplace.
I am supporting my mother and 4 half siblings, keeping them off of the Government payout list.
I am putting $300.00 a month into a 401K.
The Government is not giving me anything. I get no tax breaks. I pay $11,719.50 dollars in taxes each year.
Yeah, the Government sure is subsidizing me.
Idiots.
And if you think that your stereotypes are true, than you really are idiots.
I don't get the impression that F4UDOA is being subsidized either.
Sisu
-Karnak
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Karnak, based on an income of $42,000.00 no kids and single, your tax cut is 8.9% or a savings of $576.00. He heeeeee, now we may be giving HT a thought that AH price should go up after Bush is elected (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by 1776 (edited 11-06-2000).]
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1776,
Which is about $20.00 a paycheck. Whoohoo. I can buy lunch twice.
I'd much rather it be put towards paying off the National Debt.
My ideal candidate would be as follows:
Pro-choice: Gore 1, Bush 0
Pro-Environment: Gore 1, Bush -1
Pro Campaign Finance Reform: Gore .5, Bush 0
Pro paying off the National Debt: Gore .11, Bush .1
Honest: Gore 0, Bush 0
People oriented, not business oriented: Gore 0, Bush 0
Out of a possible 6, Gore scores 2.61 and Bush scores -.9
Sisu
-Karnak
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Ok, $20 is no big deal!!! I will e-mail you my addy and you can start sending me the money today (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Thanks in advance I will spend it so jobs can be created (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Oh, boy, a new puter will soon be on the way to my house,thanks Karnak (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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There is no word "Karnak" in my post.
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Karnak,
You are truly "Karnak the amazing" HiOOO!
A little Johnny Carson humor incase anyone is wondering.
You hit the nail on the head. George W. is like a magician. He dangles a shiny object in front of your face(tax cut) and then he takes your whole wallet. And it is in the case of someone truly middle class, 40,000 dollars a year. A 20 dollar a week savings (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
And that is a lye to because that money that is ear-marked for this tax cut IE. the budget surplus has already been spent by the republican congress. So as they say in my neighborhood "Fawget aboud it". It's vapor ware and the election hasn't even started yet. Mark my words, you will never see this tax cut.
LJK Raubvogel,
You obviously think I'm joking when I bring up such groups as the moonies and Hare Krishna's but I'm not. You see they, and all others would fall under the same broad sword as other private and parochial schools. Every special interest will be fighting for these vouchers and we will foot the bill.
But the real issue hear lies with the ethics of giving ANY religious group in this country government money. You talk about it they they are private contractors bidding on a government job. This is a grave error.
What these groups are is
A. Some of the most wealthy organizations in the world.
B. Most important, completely tax exempt. They don't even pay real estate tax on their enormous compounds across the country. I have read where if the Catholic church would just pay their real estate tax the national debt would be eliminated.
C. Having No government regulation as to what they teach or how they treat children. This country is already full of poorly educated children. It is now supposed to get better when there is no oversight? Also these schools do not have to allow all minorities or trouble children. Are they less deserving of an education or protection from the bill of rights.
Are these the groups that Tax dollars should go to? You can turn on your TV at any time of the day or night and find some religious group panhandling for cash from usually the poor or elderly to give to who? Last time I checked Jerry Farwell was a millionare and the Pope lives in a Gold plated city.
Why does God need cash?
Later F4UDOA
"Religion is the opiate of the people"
BTW, I predict George W. will win this election. And I only hope that these boards are here in 4 years so I can say I told you so!
[This message has been edited by F4UDOA (edited 11-06-2000).]
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Just one more day and this will all be over and done with.
Hrmm, what would you Republicans do if Bush won the election but the Electotal College apointed Gore president. They have the right to do so as was appointed by your founding fathers. Remember you live in a republic, not a democracy.
BTW, speaking of sterotypes Eagler, you were the first to sterotype Arabs.
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[This message has been edited by Peter V (edited 11-06-2000).]
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BTW, Gore is not for environment (or education, or any of the issues he demagogs). He uses those issue to grab more power for the government and himself. The last thing the libs want to do is to solve the problem. They'd rather perpetuate a misery and victimhood atmosphere (real or imaginary), because this leaves them in a position of indispensible "saviors" and "benefactors" of the nation.
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Originally posted by Peter V:
Hrmm, what would you Republicans do if Bush won the election but the Electotal College apointed Gore president. They have the right to do so as was appointed by your founding fathers. Remember you live in a republic, not a democracy.
Yes you are correct. The electoral college can nulify the elections at their whim (just like the OJ jury did). I believe though, that their vote does not stick automatically, but it must be approved by the States who apoointed the electors.
I would not be surprised if the Clintonites pulled this off. There is nothing they would not do, to hold on to power.
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mietla,
Whatever.
You gotta hate those evil, conniving Liberals. After all they are just out to intentionally ruin the country.
Thank God for the Noble Republicans who can't tell a lie.
I can't believe anybody could fall for that crap.
Both Bush and Gore want to improve things in this country, they just have different ideas on how to do that. I happen to think Gore is closer to the mark and you happen to think Bush is closer to the mark. I don't see a problem.
1776,
Will you use that $20.00 to help pay off the National Debt? No? Didn't think so, so you can't have it.
F4UDOA,
Actually my ID is from the temple complex in Egypt. Nice guess though.
Sisu
-Karnak
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If Gore wins via the electoral college then Gore is the President of the United States.
It used to be that you couldnt even cast a vote unless you owned property. My, we have come a long ways havent we (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Yeager
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Yes, we see what terrible results choice has had at the university level. My, the horror if parents were allowed to choose a better school at earlier ages as well.
Gordo the proposal on vouchers is if a school fails testing it is given a finite period of time to improve, if it does not parents of kids in that school may send their kids to another school or use their share of public school funding towards a private school.
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Originally posted by Karnak:
mietla,
Whatever.
I'm not sure what you are trying to convey in this "sentence".
You gotta hate those evil, conniving Liberals. After all they are just out to intentionally ruin the country.
[/b]
Why would you use this kind of the hollow and ineffective "You disagree with me, therefore you hate me, therefore you are a bigot, therefore you are an idiot, therefore I win the discussion" type of argument.
No, I do not hate liberals (or anyone else for this matter). I do respect you and I do tolerate your views. Rejection is a more appropriate term. I do reject liberalism/socialism/communism and the rest of the self-proclaimed "progressive" ideologies, because I do think that (as you said in a quote above):
"they are just out to intentionally ruin the country"
In any nation (or any social group for that matter) if you punish the achievement, self-reliance and initiative and reward incompetence, laziness and non-achievement, within 2-3 generations you'll get less of the former and way more of the later. People start actually think that the government owes them things just because they were born, and that those things must come without strings attached.
"I want it, therefore I need it, therefore I deserve it, therefore someone better provides it to me, and do it now damn it" attitude.
I've not only seen that with my own eyes, I've lived it.
I my view, no one owe anything to anyone else (except for the parent-child relationship). “You want it, earn it”, is my motto and believe it or not I practiced it all my life.
Thank God for the Noble Republicans who can't tell a lie.
[/b]
I don't think the reps are much better than libs. They also want/need a big government, they just want to piss away the loot a bit differently. Besides, they have no balls. If they really stood for what they claim to stand for, I might give them a look. As it is now, it is simply a lesser evil.
I can't believe anybody could fall for that crap.
[/b]
I don't fall for it. See above.
Both Bush and Gore want to improve things in this country, they just have different ideas on how to do that.
[/b]
Neither of them could care less about the country. They both want power, that’s all. Besides, it is not their business to improve things. The Constitution clearly limits the scope of the federal government. There are very few things the Constitution allows them to do, the primary being the defense of a nation. This includes a defense of the Constitution itself (remember the President's oath), the sovereignty of the USA, conducting the foreign policy for the benefit of this nation, and yes the defense of the borders against the foreign invasion, armed or unarmed.
And yes, these are exactly the things the feds refuse to do. The Constitution is raped daily, US sovereignty is given away piece by piece, foreign policy benefits everybody and his uncle except the US citizens and borders are practically open to illegal immigration. The key word here is illegal. Try to immigrate to US legally, the feds will give you a snowball’s chance in hell to get a permit, but if you do it illegally, not only they’ll let you in, they’ll give you all the benefits that most of the US citizens do not get, heck, they’ll pay for the US lawyer, so you can sue the US for your “victimization”.
I happen to think Gore is closer to the mark and you happen to think Bush is closer to the mark. I don't see a problem
[/b]
Obviously I disagree with your choice, but I do agree with the “closer to the mark” justification.
1776,
Will you use that $20.00 to help pay off the National Debt? No? Didn't think so, so you can't have it.
[/b]
This is not your money to begin with. 1776 paid it in extraneous taxes already, and he just wants to (fraction of it) back. What gives you the right to decide “you don’t need your money, so I’ll keep it”?
Karnak,
I do not share your “I benefit = good, someone else benefits = bad” view. I think that although the world we live in is analog and gray, most issues (but not all) can be distilled to a black-white, digital abstract.
A theft remains a theft regardless of what the wealth of the person robbed is and regardless of how the thief intends to spend the stolen wealth.
A premeditated murder (I mean murder not killing someone) remains a murder regardless of the motive of the perpetrator and the age of the victim is. The very notion of a “hate” crime makes me cringe. As oppose to what, a “love” crime?
Karnak, clearly you do not mean to say that your views depend on how much money you make, do you?
mietla
P.S. What does Sisu in your signature mean? It makes me curious for a while now. If you do not mind me asking of course.
P.P.S. We live not that far from each other. I'd me more than happy to invite you to my place and fly AH and/or WB together. I promise not to talk politics (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
What do you say?
[This message has been edited by mietla (edited 11-07-2000).]
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Hmmmmm,let me ask why the national debt is such a big deal now?? When this debt was being created by the Democrat Congress, no one sopke of the national debt and the fact that it needed to be paid down. Year after year more debt was added, but now.....
If you really want to pay off the national debt, buy bonds!!! Use your Social Security
portion that you will be able to invest to buy those bonds!!!
Ya, things are going to boom in America!!!!
Our future looks very bright, for the first time in 20 years!!!!
Watch the mainstream media now. You are going to see a panic. You are going to see the homeless resurface.
As I live close to where the Clinton library is going to be built. I plan on visiting it after the double wide is parked and the velvet painting of Monica is installed (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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1. 1776- there is no tax cut. Move on.
2. Fatty- You can't take advantage of college students like you can little school children. Colleges can loose their accreditation as well as scholarship money. Their is no such provision in the student voucher system. And if you wait for religious zealots to rat out their own demi-gods, well you will be waiting a long time.
3. Mietla-I'm not sure what your trying to convey. In one sentence the republicans are the only way to go the next they are power hungry. I don't care what Al Gore does on his own time, but I know the ABC's of what he represents. That's why you are voting.
And what do you mean by incompetence, Laziness and non-achievement? Is that directed at the executive branch of government or some minority that you disagree with. I love it when a republican points at a minority with unbelievable social disadvantages and says "pull yourself up by your bootstraps kid". And the public goes wild.
BTW, the national debt over tripled during the Reagan/Bush years. So if your looking for someplace to point the finger you know where to put it.
Oh well, going to vote.
Later
F4UDOA
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mietla,
Hmmm.
The "I benefit = good, somebody else benefits = bad" is exactly how I feel about conservative voters. We seem to see the same thing from opposite sides of the thing.
A Gore Presidency will not directly benefit me. It will indirectly benefit me through a stronger economy and a cleaner environment though. I won't be bribed for the paltry sum of $2300.00 over four years. My vote casts more than that.
I think that I am a bit less cynical than you. I don't think any of the candidates are just out for themselves.
The $20.00 1776 was asking for was directly from my pocket because I had scoffed at the tax reduction Bush claimed he'd give me. He stated that if $20.00 meant so little to me, why don't I send him $20.00 from each of my paychecks.
No, my views do not depend on how much money I make.
Sisu is a Finnish word that translates roughly as "What must be done, will be done regardless of the cost". My ancestry is Finnish.
I wouldn't mind that next year sometime. I'm afraid that I am, and will be for some time, horribly busy.
1776,
Check your history books. Reagan is the guy responsible for the massive debt increase. The Democratic Congress passed smaller budgets than Reagan submitted each year. Reagan pushed through the lower taxes, particularly for the wealthy and corporations, and massively increased spending. Of course the debt went up. Even my Republican friends admit that. It IS certainly true that the Democratic Congress bears some responsibility for it as well.
Sisu
-Karnak
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"Democratic Congress bears some responsibility for it as well."
And now you are going to tell me that Reagan held the Congress at gunpoint,right? heheeee
The Pres can only sign or veto. Congress holds the final say!!!
Karnak, now I understand, hehe I'm a Swede (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by 1776 (edited 11-07-2000).]
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3. Mietla-I'm not sure what your trying to convey. In one sentence the republicans are the only way to go the next they are power hungry. I don't care what Al Gore does on his own time, but I know the ABC's of what he represents. That's why you are voting.
[/b]
I'm not a republican.
I'm not voting for Bush, I'm voting against Gore. I'll wait till 8:00 PM to keep my options open.
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You really think there will be no accreditation standards F4U? In order to even qualify to change schools you would need to be in a school failing standardized testing (which includes evolution, despite hysteria to the contrary). Any nightmare you have listed can happen in a public school or day care center, it's a societal problem.
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Thanks, Fatty. Got that just in time to go vote! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Didn't sway my opinion any, but I was curious.
Gordo