Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: VOR on June 29, 2006, 07:21:01 PM
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Azhar Nazir, 30, and his cousin, 17, used four knives to cut Samaira Nazir’s throat and repeatedly stab her after she fell in love with an asylum-seeker from what they saw as an unsuitable caste.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2229505,00.html
Preventive measures aka the blame game: choose one item from the list below that you feel was the single greatest contributor to this incident.
1. Illegal Immigration
2. The caste system
3. Knives
4. Education
5. Black magic
6. Islam
7. Money
8. Marriage
9. Western Culture i.e. "Women's Lib"
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10. Stupidity and ignorance.
Find me a culture that doesn't have one of the above.
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11. Bush
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12. Oxygen
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It's ok, guys. I can understand being afraid to commit to an honest answer these days. Your taboo declaration might come with certain undesirable consequences. You'd have to be pretty brave.
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BOMBZ THEM ALL!!! MAKE A HUGE PARKING LOT!!!
happy now?
I rest my case.
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I think this cannot be retraced to a single point on the list, Islam contributes to it, male-female role patterns in the eastern world do so as well. And of course the complete idiocy of those involved in this one.
But of course that wasn't the answer you wanted to hear, that would be "Multiculturalism sucks!"
There you go...
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I'm not looking for a particular answer. I picked most of the keywords from the article and added the bit about gender-roles at the end.
I agree that it's a combination of things, but to honestly answer the question is going to be unpopular with someone somewhere. You might be branded, threatened, ridiculed, compartmentalized (cough). Don't you think this might disrupt any potential cure to the underlying problem (whatever it may be)? It's all hypothetical and can't be quantified anyway, so it really doesn't matter.
Ok, let me rephrase the question. Which single *controllable* factor would you eliminate in order to prevent or minimize the risk of this happening again?
Saintaw, don't get uppity me. I didn't kill anyone. Keep your stereotyping to yourself.
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My initial post was a honnest answer. You didn't like it and seemed to be expecting someone to ... I dunno exactly.
My 2nd post doesn't imply you killin'anyone... it's just the answer I'm expecting to hear shortly from the hicks on this board.
My appologies if I hurt your feelings, I wasn't sniping... think of it more as a pray-n-spray.
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Saintaw, I dismissed your first answer because I don't believe it's true. These aren't stupid or ignorant people. They're successful businessmen/women who owned/ operated multiple businesses in the UK, including a business specialising in human resources.
I don't think they're stupid. I believe they carefully thought this through over a course of time and decided it was in the best interest of their family unit. They intelligently made a decision, although of course I won't call it a sound decision because I don't think cutting the throats of one's siblings or children is ever going to be a necessary solution to any problem.
No, they're not stupid or ignorant people, but they're very different people from you or me. They're different, and of course you and I as modern, enlightened and educated people celebrate cultural diversity and at a bare minimum tolerate what we don't choose to embrace. Right?
So, if the core issue here isn't intelligence, what is it? Why did this happen,and what can be done to prevent it in the future? Like I said, difficult questions to answer without hurting somebody's feelings.
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VOR,
I'll agree with you on a point... it's a f**ed up story.
Someone using cultural/religious beliefs as an excuse for murder makes him an idiot to my eyes, even if he's a CEO or a Dphil.
I can however find a lot of f** ed stories that have nothing to do with culture or religion.
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That's kinda my point. They're not using their background or upbringing as a "cover" to commit murder. They really believe in their hearts they did the right thing, and you or I may never understand why it was "necessary". Idiots don't achieve the things this family has achieved. Again, I say they're not stupid, idiotic, ignorant or in any other way mentally substandard. They're just different.
I can however find a lot of f** ed stories that have nothing to do with culture or religion.
So could I. So could anyone. If you're looking for a way out of saying what you're really thinking, consider yourself off the hook. As for myself, I'll admit that I don't appreciate the differences in their culture vs. mine that would compel them to murder this woman, with knives, in front of two screaming children in order to preserve their family honor. Then again, I'm just a hick sometimes.
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I agree.
I am just a little premptively agressive sometimes, go figure...
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Originally posted by VOR
Idiots don't achieve the things this family has achieved. Again, I say they're not stupid, idiotic, ignorant or in any other way mentally substandard. They're just different.
Achieving commercial success and being an idiot are not mutually exclusive at all. The thing is, culture wasn't listed in your initial top 9, perhaps it should've been. In that case I'd have to say that could be earmarked as the predominant factor causing this drama.
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Originally posted by Thud
Multiculturalism sucks!
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There we go...
1. Culture is an important factor.
2. Multiculturalism sucks.
How did you go from 1 to 2?
Would be the same as saying that since peanut butter past its date and strawberries on a sandwich taste terrible it is a mistake to mix fillings by default...
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I'm exercising my right to make assumptions and jump to conclusions.
By the way, it's always a mistake to mix bad peanut butter with anything else. The only thing it goes well with is bad peanut butter. There will always be people though that believe bad peanut butter can be made good if it's mixed with the right fresh ingredients. Some people even refuse to acknowledge the horrible taste of bad peanut butter, preferring to discredit the taste tester or think him biased or narrow minded.
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You're right. And it certainly doesn't make you an ingredient fascist.
An important sidenote regarding your first post remains though that bad peanut butter is bad, regardless what it is mixed with and that does certainly not negate the tasteful combo that other ingredients, for example ham and cheese, have been forming for decades, if not more.
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Originally posted by VOR
These aren't stupid or ignorant people. They're successful businessmen/women who owned/ operated multiple businesses in the UK, including a business specialising in human resources.
Being successful in business certainly does not make them immune to stupidity.
I have known a lot of folks who were successful in their business life that also sold out their friends, family and everyone they came in contact with to become successful. Pretty stupid in my book to trade life for the allmighty buck or any currency.
Comparing intelligence and common sense to monetary gain just can`t be done.
They intelligently made a decision
An intelligent decision to kill a family member over who they chose as a boyfriend/spouse? I think not. There is certainly no intelligence involved in that.
Stupidity is definitely what`s missing from the list.
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that should have been a glass parking lot you silly frenchman who lost his woman to a moslem. :D
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?
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maybe murder should be illegal.
lazs
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...unless family honor demands it. Then it would be legal, right?
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VOR, I don't understand what you're getting at, exactly.
For us to understand,much less accept these actions, even from a group of seemingly functional, successfull people, would be the same as them understanding and accepting our open obsessions with scantily clad large-breasted women, the consumption of pork products and our failure to pray to Mecca five times daily.
In fact, the only reason there is any confusion at all is because these people have demonstrated some ability to function, and function well, within the parameters of western society. You can work with them, hell, even work for them, and thus, there is overlap in our values. Leave the workplace, and we stray in one direction, and they in the other, and there is as much hope of mutual understanding in matters such as these as there would be between you and a fish living at the bottom of an oceanic trench.
What they did, to them, seems as normal and justified as my going out and getting Egg McMuffins yesterday. Indeed, to them, your response to their actions may seem as rediculous as their actions seem to you.
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yep.. nubob pretty much hit it. the other thing tho is not so much illegal immigration but immigration that involves multiculturalism.
You need to become a part of the country you immigrate to. that means that you need to speak the language and observe the laws and customs...
even....no.... especialy when they contradict the ones you so gleefully left behind. That includes religious or ingrained custom that conflicts with the laws of the land you adopt.
lazs
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Lets see here. A few members of a family believes an intangible (caste and social status) is far mor important to them than the life of their offspring / sibling.
Yep sounds pretty freaking stupid and most definately ignorant to me.
FWIW the one variable to control or get rid of to eliminate this type of behavior, people. Never never underestimate the power of human STUPIDITY.
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Originally posted by lazs2
You need to become a part of the country you immigrate to. that means that you need to speak the language and observe the laws and customs...
even....no.... especialy when they contradict the ones you so gleefully left behind. That includes religious or ingrained custom that conflicts with the laws of the land you adopt.
lazs
I don't think there is a way to say it better.
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Yep mav... and if they love those ignorant customs so much then why the hell did they ever leave? And.... more importantly.... what the hell are they doing in the new country?
That does not mean they can't have a cultrual based resteraunt or business... those things are acepted and welcomed as "diviersity" in allmost any civilized country.... You can have plays and dress and worship as you please and so long as it conforms with the laws allready established in your adopted country.
It is not difficult and it is not "gray"... it is black and white and simple.
lazs