Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Reynolds on June 29, 2006, 11:25:40 PM
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Okay, since no one else has anything posted for my 109...
Post suggestions for combat, interesting experiences, and really anything else involving 109s here! :aok
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I suggest to use search option , its helpfull
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"109" is too short to search for, so try "leather underwear":lol :lol :lol :D :D :D
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Who is 'Konrad'?
K = Kurfürst
Search member name 'Kurfürst' and you will get all you can handle...
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Originally posted by Bruno
Who is 'Konrad'?
K = Kurf�rst
Search member name 'Kurf�rst' and you will get all you can handle...
Thats just mean Bruno ;)
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Konrad= Messerschmitt Bf-109 K series. So, um, none of that **** has anything to do w/ 109s, so please, dont post it. I would like to just seriously discuss the Bf-109!
Also, at the risk of sounding like the complete idiot i am, what does Kurfurst mean?!? I know sheiBe, but ive never heard of Kurfurst...
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Originally posted by Reynolds
Konrad= Messerschmitt Bf-109 K series. So, um, none of that **** has anything to do w/ 109s, so please, dont post it. I would like to just seriously discuss the Bf-109!
Also, at the risk of sounding like the complete idiot i am, what does Kurfurst mean?!? I know sheiBe, but ive never heard of Kurfurst...
Kürfürst : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince-elector
K stand for "Kürfürst" not "Konrad" like F stand for "Friedrich" not "Frantz" or "Fritz"
D==Dora
E==Emil
F==Friedrich
G==Gustav
K==Kürfürst
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I have never heard of it as Kurfurst. Every single website/ book/ tv show I have seen called it Konrad. Are you sure? Or is my world just crashing down?
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It's your world.
K is Kurfurst.
Never saw Konrad anywhere.
Most common 109 is Gustav anyway...
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Wow. I feel like an idiot. Sorry for the confusion, and thanks for setting me straight!
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NP, happens all the time.
There is a lot of confusion about the F model, I've slipped there ;)
Well, you had a question about interesting stuff with 109's.
If you fly Aces high, just fly them. The 109F is pretty nimble, and the 109K is very fast. I like the 109G-14 best for some odd reason, but they are all interesting.
There are links here somewhere for performance comparison pages for all the aircraft in AH,- there you can compare 109 to 109.
Then the internet...full of 109 stuff.
Here is a link to the 109 and one of it's head enemies:
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/9378/
You can download the engine sound there ;)
And here's the bird ;)
(http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/9378/bf37.jpg)
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Yes, the only fighters I fly are the 109s. Im a Luftwaffe pilot!:noid
And the F model i knew, i just cannot beleive I got something wrong about the 109!!! My dad would have a heart attack. I have more 109/Luftwaffe memorabelia than college kids have porn! I dont have any movie that came out withing the last 4 years, and my second favorite movie is Battle of Brittan! (My first favorite is Lord of War, because i think it sends a real message) I know nothing but the art of war, and i got something about the 109 wrong. Its hard to beleive! Its almost as embarassing as having my arse handed to me every time i fly my lovely Gustav, or Emil, or any other 109s! Oh, and the site you gave me is acting wierd. It says:
Sorry, this GeoCities site is currently unavailable.
The GeoCities web site you were trying to view has temporarily exceeded its data transfer limit. Please try again later.
Are you the site owner? Avoid service interruptions in the future by increasing your data transfer limit! Find out how.
Learn more about data transfer
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Works fine for me.
It was on the top 10 list when I just googled "me 109".
It's not my site, but I took one of the Spitfire photos there.
Oh, do you fly AH? If you do, you should also test other fighters against the 109, - gives a good lesson to try the whole planeset.
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F stand for "Friedrich" not "Frantz" or "Fritz"
Fritz is shorthand for Friedrich so is ok to describe the 109F for example...
Franz is the navigator / back seat on bomber (emil is pilot).
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Hi Bruno,
>Fritz is shorthand for Friedrich so is ok to describe the 109F for example...
So did I think, too, but I just checked the site of the Museum für Post und Telekommunikation in Berlin, and they show "Fritz" as official phonetic code:
Telefonalphabet 1934
Anton
Bruno
Cäsar
CH: Charlotte
Dora
Emil
Fritz
Gustav
Heinz
Ida
Jot
Kurfürst
Ludwig
Marie
Nordpol
Otto
Paula
Quelle
Richard
Siegfried
SCH: Schule
Toni
Ulrich
Viktor
Wilhelm
Xantippe
Ypern
Zeppelin
Ärger
Öse
Übel
They have documented quite a few versions on their site:
http://www.tu-berlin.de/~gebrauchsanleitung/Buchstab.htm
Note that there was a big change in 1934 for ideological reasons - biblical names were elimated because they were considered yewish.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telefonalphabet
Some more changes were the contraction of "Friedrich" to "Fritz" and "Heinrich" to "Heinz" (which was not that sensible phonetically), "Bernhard" was replaced by the linguistically related "Bruno". Then there were some new "patriotic sounding" codes in other places ("Kurfürst" and "Ypern" - the latter probably alluding to a popular WW1 myth).
It seems the changes of 1934 were rolled back after WW2, but somehow "Nathan" was an exception from that. I'm surprised to see that "Samuel" is supposed to be the official code (from 1950 on, and re-inforced by later standards such as the DIN 5009 from 1983), because I have never heard anyone use anything but "Siegfried"! Maybe if I had paid more attention ... :-)
To complicate matters further, the German phonetic alphabet is a civilian development dating back to 1903, and it may be that the military used a different version for some reason. Here is one that looks a bit strange to me, but refers to a numbered military publication as source:
http://www.gyges.dk/Operational%20brevity%20code.htm
As if that weren't complicated enough, different German-speaking countries had different versions of the civilian code, too:
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/radio/phonetic-alph/full/
(I'm actually a bit suspicious about the accuracy of the various quoted versions as none of them is documented with a dated reference.)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Thanks for all the info... but um, about 109s... ;)
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So, Dora instead of David :D
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honest question: what's so special about Kurfürst/Konrad/whatnot? It's still just the letter K?
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what's so special about Kurfürst/Konrad/whatnot? It's still just the letter K?
Nothing, my reply wasn't to be taken seriously. It was just 'having fun'...
Kurfürst is/was the nik of a poster on this forum who was banned. He was/is a dedicated enthusiast of the 109K.
So..,
I don't know 'Konrad' but 'Kurfürst' can be found by a simple search :p
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Here's an article about 109's, Myths and some facts (http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/articles/109myths/). That's based on pilot evaluations, many do disagree with those. Anyway, a good place to get started on, read through that for starters. :)
Tomorrow, Sat 10 am, a funeral of a Brewster and a Bf-109 pilot, Erkki Pakarinen, at Tampere Tuomiokirkko (Finland..), Rest in peace.
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Reynolds like i said what u cant out turn you can outclimb....
Engine Power/Climb rate...in order from worst to best..
109E-4
109F-4
109G-6
109G-2
109G-14
109K-4
Turning ability..In order from worst to best
109K-4
109G-14
109G-6
109G-2
109F-4
109E-4
*** please note this is from MY 4 months personal experience of flying nothing but 109's...if I am wrong please let me know as I am still a N00b :p***
You see the trend?? the more early war the 109 is the better its manuverbility but the more underpowered it is... vise-versa for the more the late war the 109 is the less manuverable it becomes but it makes up for it for having superior climbing...the 109K-4 is one of the best if not the best plane in a climb...
Also from 109G-2 and on, 109's have probably the best acceleration there is ..I especially like to show thier acceleration off If im in a stall fight going reeeeeeelly slow(If i dont get picked first that is) and im losing ground on the opponent I retract my flaps hit the wep and watch that baby go like a rocket.. This is especially fun against USN (AKA the blue planes) planes as their acceleration sucks butt big time :lol
When we trained you stated how you like the K-4 and G-14....beware these are not easy to learn...try the easier models first like the F-4 or the G-2....Also once in a blue moon up another plane thats not a 109 so you learn it and you know what it can and cannot do so when you face it in combat you'll know exactly how to fight it...I am a LW pilot myself and I love nothing but 109's but ocassionally I'll up a P-38 or a P-51 so I learn wat it can and cannot do..Same goes for all RAF planes and IJN planes...
One last thing to tell you Reynolds...109's are NOT easy planes to learn... DO NOT get discouraged if you keep getting shot down..I've only been playing since February and 109 is only thing I like to fly and Im still learning to fly them....
Remember stay fast, check your 6 every 8 seconds, DONT up at a capped field, always try to get AT LEAST 8K when going into a fight in the MA, and Happy Huntings :aok
Hope this Helps ;)
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Thanks very much all of you! and one thing... Angus, thats a 109 G-2 right? Also about those pro-words, Kurfurst, Gustav, they make it sound so much more important. I prefer to use those instead of just the letter, because it makes it sound more interesting.
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Platano, are you sure that the G-14 on WEP doesn't out-turn the G14?
And the F-4 should be on par with the 109E, even better. Besides, it rolls and climbs much better. The F is a dogfighter ;)
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Originally posted by Angus
And the F-4 should be on par with the 109E, even better. Besides, it rolls and climbs much better. The F is a dogfighter ;)
Ive tried it..the F-4 rolls better and feels more nimble overall but cant keep up with the E-4 in a flat turn....
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Originally posted by Platano
Ive tried it..the F-4 rolls better and feels more nimble overall but cant keep up with the E-4 in a flat turn....
The E-4 turns a tad tighter (roughly 30 feet smaller radius), but the F-4 has a considerable advantage in turn rate, plus it's superior in a yo-yo. In short, the F-4 will win a stall fight.
My regards,
Widewing
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YAY!!! All of this pretty information! My folders gonna get thicker today! :D :D :D
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A thread that perhaps won't catch fire...
109 vs 109 ;)
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Originally posted by HoHun
Hi Bruno,
>Fritz is shorthand for Friedrich so is ok to describe the 109F for example...
So did I think, too, but I just checked the site of the Museum für Post und Telekommunikation in Berlin, and they show "Fritz" as official phonetic code:
Ahh, thanks Hun. I always wondered about that discrepancy.
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So, from peoples experience, what best against a Spit V?
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Best fun? 109F vs Spit5 is best matchup for skill, I think.
Best = easiest to kill a spit5 in? Then K-4 has the best engine, the best climb, and a 30mm. If you have the 30mm take the G14 with the 20mm, still has a good engine and good climb.
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Okay thanks. Anyone have any fun/nice pics/stories about 109s? ill post some of my in-game pics here.
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(http://www.freewebs.com/stepford_child/ahss2.JPG)
(http://www.freewebs.com/stepford_child/ahss0.JPG)
(http://www.freewebs.com/stepford_child/ahss5.JPG)
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Hi Murdr,
>Ahh, thanks Hun. I always wondered about that discrepancy.
Glad I could help! :-)
On re-reading my post, I think I my choice of word was lacking in (at least ;-) one point: Just as Bruno pointed out, "Fritz" is indeed a short form for "Friedrich", independend of the phonetic code, but apparently in 1934 the abbreviated form was written into the phonetic code officially.
So it's not as if Bruno was wrong, just that the abbreviation became the official code in 1934.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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I've been trying to learn the 109's as well.Me an Plantano had some good duels last week.Look me up some time on the weekend and I'll show you what little I know about the 109's.Shouldnt take more than 10 minutes of your time.
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What's your opinion on the best gun loadout on the G-14?
I love the hits from the tatergun, but the MG-151 carries a bit more ammo and has better ballistics. One person told me that the only compelling reason to take the G-14 over the G-2 was the 30mm option. Was told the G-2 was much more nimble and more forgiving than the -14.
And, if taking the 30mm with the G-14 is the more effective gun package, is there a reason to take the -14 over the later, faster, better climbing K-4 model?
Thanks!!
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Originally posted by Creton
I've been trying to learn the 109's as well.Me an Plantano had some good duels last week.Look me up some time on the weekend and I'll show you what little I know about the 109's.Shouldnt take more than 10 minutes of your time.
Understatement? :D
I can remember aa hurri mk1 vs your g2 or g6 not sure which it was....but it was a great fight. It's not often that you will find a 109 that wants to turn with a hurri mk1 :)
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CRETON?!? YOU ARE KIDDING RIGHT?!?
1. YOU are NOT just learning. I have never seen a single person land more 6-kill-victories in a 109 K-4!!!
2. It would be my greatest honor to learn from you!
And the gun load for the G-14:
Personally, that depends on the target. If you are straffing a town, take the G-14/R-6. Otherwise, the 30mm is good for close range (600-) and the 20mm for long (600+). I like the 30mm, because if you are good enough, you can do anything with it. If you learn to tap, and fire just one cannon round at a time, youll do great. I spent 8 minutes once following a La-La from 600 behind and losing ground fast. I just kept tapping firring one round at a time, and finally i hit him with just one round, and he went spiralling down. Its a powerful enough gun, that as long as you are accurate enough, you only need one round per fighter A/C you are going to attack.
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Oh, and my pics above: (the one with just one wing) Thats why you dont drink and fly kids!
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Originally posted by Warspawn
And, if taking the 30mm with the G-14 is the more effective gun package, is there a reason to take the -14 over the later, faster, better climbing K-4 model?
Thanks!!
G-14 is lighter and more manueverable thats all
oh and BTW nice pics reynolds especially the last one....One thing i couldnt help but notice is that you were firing all of your weapons at once...Wat I tend to do is leave the 30mm for a shot that I know I'm not gonna miss.. It looks like you are a bit far for a 30mm cannon hit... In a situtaion like that i would fire my cowl guns only...
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i though there was a long range mk108 hit srite in there & thats what made it notable
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Originally posted by Platano
G-14 is lighter and more manueverable thats all
But...
As I was asking before, if you want lighter and more maneuverable, wouldn't the G-2 fill that role better than the G-14? I guess I'm just trying to fit the G-14 into a niche within the 109 family. The G-2 seems to outmaneuver it, while the K-4 does everything else better. It seems like the -14 gets put into the category of a sluggish G-2, or a slow K-4...
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G-14 can hit like a mother ****er. Oh, and platano, that was a staged pic. I was actually supposed to shoot the guy in front of that guy, but my icons were off, and i didnt know there was anyone else up. That pic is from the TA, recognize it?
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Originally posted by Warspawn
But...
As I was asking before, if you want lighter and more maneuverable, wouldn't the G-2 fill that role better than the G-14? I guess I'm just trying to fit the G-14 into a niche within the 109 family. The G-2 seems to outmaneuver it, while the K-4 does everything else better. It seems like the -14 gets put into the category of a sluggish G-2, or a slow K-4...
Yes warspawn correct..the G-2 is lighter and more nimble but the guns are infererior compred to a G-14.. G-14 packs 2x12.7mm MG's plus the option of a 30mm OR a 20mm cannon in the nose...G-2 has 2x7.7mm MG's with a 20mm cannon in the nose...no option for a 30mm on the G-2..
all a G-14 really is a 109 in a G2 body frame with an improved engine and weapons (2x12.7MG's and the 30mm cannon)..thus making it heavier and less manuverable than a G-2..In a way it falls between the categories of a G6 and a K-4
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Hey platano, wanna help me w/ my pics tomorrow? 18:45 GMT in TA. Check the screenshots board for my thread, it has more details!
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(http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/456/messerschmittbf109c12mq.jpg)
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Originally posted by HoHun
Hi Bruno,
>Cäsar
Henning (HoHun)
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Originally posted by Blixen
(http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/456/messerschmittbf109c12mq.jpg)
how am i supposed to know that?
i've never ever seen that photo before.
is it from your personal private photo collection or did you take it?
lmao
:noid :noid :noid :noid :furious :furious
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109 C is Casar.
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109c`s(http://me109.sofiacity.com/Me-109_all/Me-109C/Me-109C_pics/Bf109C1-1.jpg)
(http://me109.sofiacity.com/Me-109_all/Me-109C/Me-109C_pics/Me109C2-1.jpg)
109b
(http://me109.sofiacity.com/Me-109_all/Me-109B/Me-109B_pics/bf109b-2_t.JPG)
109d
(http://me109.sofiacity.com/Me-109_all/Me-109D/Me-109D_pics/Me109D1-2.jpg)
109H
(http://me109.sofiacity.com/Me-109_all/Me-109H/Me-109_pics/bf109h1.jpg)
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That H is an R-6 right? oh, and thanks for the pics. those early model's intakes make them quite ugly, i think.
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bf 109 v-1
(http://www.luzinde.com/meisaku/zero/bf109v1.jpg)
V1 Original 109 prototype fitted with Rolls-Royce Kestrel engine of 695 hp. Civil registration D-IABI.
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Czechoslovak AVIA - S 199 with jumo 211 engine
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/26/AVIA-S_199.jpg/800px-AVIA-S_199.jpg)
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(http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/1128/109c4ts.png)
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Hey, um, those 109s, what do those... um... circular things in the right side below cockpit do?
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109H Was intended to be high alt scout fighter for use over england
but it was scraped do to fw making the 152
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air intakes or u talking bout gun cowls?
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(http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/5021/109t4sd.jpg)
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The one with the yellow triangle is for acces to the fuel tank filling point.
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Just above the engine exhaust points. in that above picture, it is kind of box-shaped
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early model 109's look ugly period.. 2 bladed prop?? eww
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Originally posted by Reynolds
Just above the engine exhaust points. in that above picture, it is kind of box-shaped
Reynolds those are supercharger intakes..all 109's had them..early 109's had them looking square-ish while later models had them circular..
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Ah, thanks, i have always wondered
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(http://www.eagle-editions.com/blond-knight.gif)
I have this print mounted and hanging in my condo. Done by Jerry Crandall and autographed by Hartmann. One of my most cherished possessions.
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Dear god that is beutiful...:eek:
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Originally posted by DiabloTX
(http://www.eagle-editions.com/blond-knight.gif)
I have this print mounted and hanging in my condo. Done by Jerry Crandall and autographed by Hartmann. One of my most cherished possessions.
wow autographed by THE HArtmann??? isnt he dead?? if so when did he die?
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I dont know who Hartman is, but that is absolutely breathtaking...
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Erich Hartmann, Ace of Aces, 354 kills in 109.
He died in 1993 I think.
I've got 2 books autographed by Gunther Rall, - basically my most cherished posessions. He is still alive and well as far as I know.
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THAT HARTMAN?!? I didnt know he was a painter! DEAR squealing GOD YOU ARE LUCKY Diablo! How much did you pay for it?
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Ok, here's the story: Back in the spring of 1990 I was stationed in Norfolk, Virginia. I had a weekend off so a shipmate of mine (who's still my best friend and is here in Houston as well) took a trip up to D.C. While there I went to Virginia Bader's Fine Arts Gallery. They had this print and I bought it for $145 unframed. While the salesman was getting the print I also saw a print by Mike Wooten of a 109E-4 from the Battle Of Britain. They wanted $45.00 for that so when the salesman came back I told him that I would like a copy of the Emil as well. He told me that he had a special one that he'd sell me for the same price, the only difference was this one is signed by Mike Wooten AND G. Rall, D. Hrabak, and A. Galland. He went back to the stockroom and came out with it, unrolled it and I saw the signatures on it. Needless to say I was smilin' like a possum eatin' a sweet potater. I have it framed and hanging on the wall next to the Hartmann print. I'll take pictures of them later and post them here.
That print (the white Hartmann 109 by Jerry Crandall, Hartmann wasn't a painter, not that I know of) hasn't been available in over 15 years and it sells for about $2000 now on the secondary market.
This is someone else's copy of the same Emil print...you can just see the signatures on it.
(http://pages.zdnet.com/gdortch/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/HPIM0156.JPG.w300h226.jpg)
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Reynolds you mis read , the painter is Crandall not Hartmann
But the painted plane is Hartmann 109 (see the double chevron, a Gruppenkommandeur marking)
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So, a Non-signed, non-canvas, poster of that picture sells for 2000? or less? I have to get one, even if it is just a poster!
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As far as I know all of the limited edition prints were signed. In fact, it's kind of hard to find any J. Crandall prints now and this one was a VERY limited print. I have a thing for things painted white; cars, guitars, etc...so when I saw this print of a white 109 flown by Hartmann I had to have it! :D
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I just checked eBay and they only had 3 Jerry Crandall WWII aviation prints. 2 going for $999 of a 109 and a P-47 and a Me-262 going for $2000. Both of the former prints were signed: Hartmann and Zemke, Gabreski, with Mahurin respectively.
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Damn i wish i had that kind of money! Id settle for a poster!
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Originally posted by Blixen
bf 109 v-1
(http://www.luzinde.com/meisaku/zero/bf109v1.jpg)
V1 Original 109 prototype fitted with Rolls-Royce Kestrel engine of 695 hp. Civil registration D-IABI.
If this machine still existed, can you imagine what the value of it would be?
:eek:
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Who knows, it might! Just a few years ago, they found 3 more type XXI U-Boats in Germany, that baby might be out there somewhere too...
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Was at Duxford in 2000, - twice.
They had BoB aces signing like wild. Didn't get my hand on anything from there though.
But my chance came later, when I spent a day with Rall. There was an aviation "event" in the evening, and I was thinking, dang, I'd like to have him sign something.
Well, my luck was there, - a guy brought me a book I had lent to him, and I just had to turn around for Rall with the pen in his hand.
"Warplanes of the Luftwaffe", signed by Rall ;)
Later I got his book "Mein Flugbuch" also signed.
There are some others. I have a rather rare book, - "Smoke trails in the sky" signed by the author, - BoB pilot and ace, A.Bartley.
And then, sadly not signed, - Ernst Udet's "Mein Fliegerleben" from 1935 ;)
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Originally posted by Angus
Erich Hartmann, Ace of Aces, 354 kills in 109.
So what does that make Adolf Galland?
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Erich Hartmann, Ace of Aces, 354 kills in 109.
thought it was 352?
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Great duels this morning Balor.
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bahh you meanie. :) was fun.
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Reynolds, list of WW2 aces, http://www.1000pictures.com/aircraft/aces.htm
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There have been some discussion about the flaps of the 109 so here is some data on it. The first one is the V24 prototype with 15,1m2 wing measured in Chalais-Meudon (NASM reel 2147):
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/852_1152052533_v24polar.jpg)
The used flap angle (60deg) is more than used in the production wing (40deg). The polars indicate quite clearly that full flaps does not give any sustained turning advantage above stalling speed of the clean wing. The report does not give polars for partial flap settings.
The second one is a 1:4,3 scale model of the Bf 109G measured by Mtt in their wind tunnel (NASM reel 2057). The polars are for the wing only and not directly comparable with full scale plane:
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/852_1152052567_flugel.jpg)
Again large deflections give no practical sustained turn advantage above stalling speed of the clean wing. But small deflection (10deg) give some advantage at that speed range, the Cl being roughly 10% higher at same drag around the stalling speed of the clean wing.
gripen
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Originally posted by Baylor
thought it was 352?
Correct, Hartmann had 352, Galland 104...which makes Galland, uh, Galland. But it didn't stand in the way of his becoming General der Jagdflieger at the ripe old age of 29.
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What was our highest kill score? 30 something?
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Richard "Dick" Bong - 40 kills.
All of them BnZin'.
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40 kills, 352 kills. And yet they lost the war... something seem a bit wierd there?
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352 kills it was, sorry.
By many Galland is considered the greater one though. Johnny Johnsson considers him the best of the German aces in WW2.
Rall is by some considered the best, - 275 kills while spending so and so much time in Hospital, - and he was also active on the western front.
Then again you have phenomenal characters like Marseille, tacticians like Mölders etc etc.
(Sticking to 109 pilots)
Top ace of the USAAF is as mentioned Dick Bong with 40, and the USN was David McCampbell (?), USMC "Pappy" Boyngton I think, RAF is Pat Pattle, etc etc.
Many of the Aces never met an enemy Ace, but there are famous exceptions. The one that comes to mind with the 109 is when Werner Mölders fought the South African RAF pilot A.G.Malan. Mölders got on Malans tail, but Malan managed to reverse the situation and shot Mölders up pretty badly.
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Originally posted by Reynolds
What was our highest kill score? 30 something?
Did you even look at the link provided? If you had, you would not have to ask the question.
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Originally posted by Angus
352 kills it was, sorry.
By many Galland is considered the greater one though. Johnny Johnsson considers him the best of the German aces in WW2.
Rall is by some considered the best, - 275 kills while spending so and so much time in Hospital, - and he was also active on the western front.
Then again you have phenomenal characters like Marseille, tacticians like Mölders etc etc.
(Sticking to 109 pilots)
Top ace of the USAAF is as mentioned Dick Bong with 40, and the USN was David McCampbell (?), USMC "Pappy" Boyngton I think, RAF is Pat Pattle, etc etc.
Many of the Aces never met an enemy Ace, but there are famous exceptions. The one that comes to mind with the 109 is when Werner Mölders fought the South African RAF pilot A.G.Malan. Mölders got on Malans tail, but Malan managed to reverse the situation and shot Mölders up pretty badly.
From what I understand there's been a little issue come to light about the authenticity of Marseille's victory claims. I'm not sure where I saw it but there was some discrepency about what the RAF records showed and what Marseille claimed. If I find it again I'll post it.
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Originally posted by Reynolds
40 kills, 352 kills. And yet they lost the war... something seem a bit wierd there?
5 * 100 > 352
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Diablo, you thinking about his 17 in one day?
There is some questions about his claims this day. To make a long story short, he claimed a/c that were not in the area where he made the claims and/or claimed the wrong a/c type (this is not unusual).
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The SAAF was also in the area which confuses things a bit but like Milo said, in short, the allied side has not been able to put together a total list of that.
Lots of fog about the med theater. Axis for instance had aircraft in the area while files show them at Stalingrad ;)
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40 kills, 352 kills. And yet they lost the war... something seem a bit wierd there?
Reynolds,
Your kidding right?
Gripen,
Am I reading that chart wrong or does Ca=Clmax? It looks like clean the Clmax is approx 1.5 and with flaps almost 2.0, is that right? Where do you see the drag increase?
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There is some questions about his claims this day. To make a long story short, he claimed a/c that were not in the area where he made the claims and/or claimed the wrong a/c type (this is not unusual).
In Ring and Shores in 'Fighters Over the Desert' on 1 Sept '42 Marseille claimed 17 aircraft over 3 sorties:
First sortie with 4 claims @:
09:26
09:28
09:35
09:38
He used 80 cannon rounds and 240 MG rounds. Ring and Shores list the pilots shot down as:
Hurricane - Lt Bailey
Hurricane - Maj Metelerkamp (Damaged but managed to rtb)
Hurricane - F/O Matthews
Spitfire - P/O Bradley-Smith
Second Sortie with 8 claims @:
11:55
11:56
11:58
11:59
12:01
12:02
12:03
12:05
These were claimed as P-40s. Another JG 27 pilot filed 1 P-40 claim as well. According to 'Fighters Over the Desert' the RAF lost 6 fighters on an escort mission.
His third sortie he claimed 5 more @:
18:47
18:48
18:49
18:50
18:53
These were all Hurricanes. 4 other Hurricanes were claimed by other JG27 pilots. In 'Fighters Over the Desert' Ring and Shores write that 5 Hurricanes from 213sqn and 1 from 208sqn were lost at about the same time as these claims. They also write about other Allied losses and JG 27 claims. Allied losses total 22 (2 Spitfires, 4 Kittyhawks, 1 Warhawk, 4 Tomahawks, and 9 Hurricanes) and besides Marseille's claim of 17 JG 27 claimed 9 other aircraft.
JG 27 had some pilots who definitely 'padded their scores'. A section of 4 were observed in the desert firing their guns at the empty ground and later they filed claims. These 4 were later split up, Franz Stigler was one of them. However, I don't think there's any real 'proof' that Marseille's claims weren't 'genuine'. Whether he shot down 17 actual aircraft or 14, 15, or 16 on 1 Sept '42 is only the concern of 'kill total' geeks like us.
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Originally posted by DiabloTX
If this machine still existed, can you imagine what the value of it would be?
:eek:
Not that one, but close. Think it's wreckage but anything is restorable these days :)
Bf 109B-0 (V10a) Werk Nr. 1010 Privately owned, "Bayerische Flugzeug Historiker" Oberschleissheim, Munich
And of course much of the Me-209 still exists
(http://www.preservedaxisaircraft.com/Luftwaffe/messerschmitt/images/me209.jpg)
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Originally posted by F4UDOA
Am I reading that chart wrong or does Ca=Clmax? It looks like clean the Clmax is approx 1.5 and with flaps almost 2.0, is that right? Where do you see the drag increase? [/B]
Ca and Cw are, respectively, lift and drag coefficients.
FWIW, V24 had slotted flaps (Spaltklappe) while F-G-K series had plain flaps (Wölbungsklappe).
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Bruno, - I wish I had that book ;)
Had it in my hands in German (Sand & Sonne etc) while visiting a LW person in Germany.
(That person, scooled by Rall and others promptly declared that Rall had been the finest shot of the LW because of his deflection skills, while Marseille was simply better up close.)
Anyway...
This has been a teasing debate over the times, and some have doubted Marseilles score seriously - i.e. Duncan Smith.
Shores work is usually very good as I know it, and he has published incredible amounts of data, - with some help.
If one is to dig very deep into the day of Marseille, one will need some maps, distances and calculations. D.S. points is that many of the aircraft lost by the RAF (and SAAF) couldn't even have been close to Marseille.
Would be a lovely time-consuming project wouldn't it :D
OK, - bottom line, Marseille shot up incredible amounts of aircraft in very short timeframes. Be it 17 kills, or 12 doesn't really matter. It's incredible.
And the spoiler:
AFAIK, Marseille was the "shot" of the group, and the tactic was to cover him completely while he was in the business. That may explain why his claim is higher than the rest put together.
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Originally posted by F4UDOA
Reynolds,
Your kidding right?
Gripen,
Am I reading that chart wrong or does Ca=Clmax? It looks like clean the Clmax is approx 1.5 and with flaps almost 2.0, is that right? Where do you see the drag increase?
Hey man, calm down. Im just stateing here, asking you guys, because info tends to conflict. And it was a nice link, thank you.
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But, dont you think with skills like that, there was obviously horrible planning on the part of the Nazis and WWII Luftwaffe that caused them to lose the war?
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That's only a very small part of what caused them to lose the war. The main thing the Nazi's didn't plan on was long-term strategic war plan, among other things.
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Yeah. Why the f**k did they attack Britan AND Russia at the same time?!?
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easy to say that now, but if you pretend you're in the late fall of 1941 it seemed like quite a good idea.
teh hitler pwnd or was allied with just about all of europe & was on the march in the next continent.
:noid :noid :noid :noid :cool: :O
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The Battle of Britain was July, 1940 – May, 1941. Hitler's invasion of Russia started June, 1941. By late fall '41 Hitler was half way to Moscow.
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yeah, put yourself somewhere reading a newspaper then & you'd think it would be about another 18 months before teh hitler had completed the 1st world conquest
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If I had read a paper in the fall of '41 I'd be packing for Rio. In fact, I may just to that now.
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Originally posted by Debonair
easy to say that now, but if you pretend you're in the late fall of 1941 it seemed like quite a good idea.
teh hitler pwnd or was allied with just about all of europe & was on the march in the next continent.
:noid :noid :noid :noid :cool: :O
Personally, i think (and im pretty sure i would have thought then) That attacking an enemy to the north and to the west at the same time is rather stupid. I think he should have taken Britan first.
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Yes the 109 is a beautiful airplane:D . I may be a P-38 junkie at heart but i love any plane with the deadlines and beauty of the 109. There's something sinister about the look of that plane, more so than the others :)
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Originally posted by Reynolds
Personally, i think (and im pretty sure i would have thought then) That attacking an enemy to the north and to the west at the same time is rather stupid. I think he should have taken Britan first.
u
R
teh
jinyus
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This may be a good time for a quick review of the history of WWII...IRC style!:
An IRC history of WWII
*Hitler[AoE] has joined the game.*
*Eisenhower has joined the game.*
*paTTon has joined the game.*
*Churchill has joined the game.*
*benny-tow has joined the game.*
*T0J0 has joined the game.*
*Roosevelt has joined the game.*
*Stalin has joined the game.*
*deGaulle has joined the game.*
Roosevelt: hey sup
T0J0: y0
Stalin: hi
Churchill: hi
Hitler[AoE]: cool, i start with panzer tanks!
paTTon: lol more like panzy tanks
T0JO: lol
Roosevelt: o this fockin sucks i got a depression!
benny-tow: haha america sux
Stalin: hey hitler you dont fight me i dont fight u, cool?
Hitler[AoE]; sure whatever
Stalin: cool
deGaulle: **** Hitler rushed some1 help
Hitler[AoE]: lol byebye frenchy
Roosevelt: i dont got **** to help, sry
Churchill: wtf the luftwaffle is attacking me
Roosevelt: get antiair guns
Churchill: i cant afford them
benny-tow: u n00bs know what team talk is?
paTTon: stfu
Roosevelt: o yah hit the navajo button guys
deGaulle: eisenhower ur worthless come help me quick
Eisenhower: i cant do **** til rosevelt gives me an army
paTTon: yah hurry the fock up
Churchill: d00d im gettin pounded
deGaulle: this is fockin weak u guys suck
*deGaulle has left the game.*
Roosevelt: im gonna attack the axis k?
benny-tow: with what? ur wheelchair?
benny-tow: lol did u mess up ur legs AND ur head?
Hitler[AoE]: ROFLMAO
T0J0: lol o no america im comin 4 u
Roosevelt: wtf! thats bullshiat u studmuffins im gunna kick ur asses
T0JO: not without ur harbors u wont! lol
Roosevelt: u little biotch ill get u
Hitler[AoE]: wtf
Hitler[AoE]: america hax, u had depression and now u got a huge fockin army
Hitler[AoE]: thats bullshiat u hacker
Churchill: lol no more france for u hitler
Hitler[AoE]: tojo help me!
T0J0: wtf u want me to do, im on the other side of the world retard
Hitler[AoE]: fine ill clear you a path
Stalin: WTF u arsshoel! WE HAD A FoCKIN TRUCE
Hitler[AoE]: i changed my mind lol
benny-tow: haha
benny-tow: hey ur losing ur guys in africa im gonna need help in italy soon sum1
T0J0: o **** i cant help u i got my hands full
Hitler[AoE]: im 2 busy 2 help
Roosevelt: yah thats right ***** im comin for ya
Stalin: church help me
Churchill: like u helped me before? sure ill just sit here
Stalin: dont be an arss
Churchill: dont be a commie. oops too late
Eisenhower: LOL
benny-tow: hahahh oh shiat help
Hitler: o man ur focked
paTTon: oh what now biotch
Roosevelt: whos the cripple now lol
*benny-tow has been eliminated.*
benny-tow: lame
Roosevelt: gj patton
paTTon: thnx
Hitler[AoE]: WTF eisenhower hax hes killing all my shiat
Hitler[AoE]: quit u hacker so u dont ruin my record
Eisenhower: Nuts!
benny~tow: wtf that mean?
Eisenhower: meant to say cheekbones lol finger slipped
paTTon: coming to get u hitler u paper hanging hun noodlesocker
Stalin: rofl
T0J0: HAHAHHAA
Hitler[AoE]: u guys are fockin gay
Hitler[AoE]: ur never getting in my city
*Hitler[AoE] has been eliminated.*
benny~tow: OMG u noob you killed yourself
Eisenhower: ROFLOLOLOL
Stalin: OMG LMAO!
Hitler[AoE]: WTF i didnt click there omg this game blows
*Hitler[AoE] has left the game*
paTTon: hahahhah
T0J0: WTF my teammates are n00bs
benny~tow: shut up noob
Roosevelt: haha wut a moron
paTTon: wtf am i gunna do now?
Eisenhower: yah me too
T0J0: why dont u attack me o thats right u dont got no ships lololol
Eisenhower: fock u
paTTon: lemme go thru ur base commie
Stalin: go to hell lol
paTTon: fock this shiat im goin afk
Eisenhower: yah this is gay
*Roosevelt has left the game.*
Hitler[AoE]: wtf?
Eisenhower: shiat now we need some1 to join
*tru_m4n has joined the game.*
tru_m4n: hi all
T0J0: hey
Stalin: sup
Churchill: hi
tru_m4n: OMG OMG OMG i got all his stuff!
tru_m4n: NUKES! HOLY **** I GOT NUKES
Stalin: d00d gimmie some plz
tru_m4n: no way i only got like a couple
Stalin: omg dont be gay gimmie nuculer secrets
T0J0: wtf is nukes?
T0J0: holy ****holy****hoyl****!
*T0J0 has been eliminated.*
*The Allied team has won the game!*
Eisenhower: awesome!
Churchill: gg noobs no re
T0J0: thats bull**** u fockin suck
*T0J0 has left the game.*
*Eisenhower has left the game.*
Stalin: next game im not going to be on ur team, u guys didnt help me for ****
Churchill: wutever, we didnt need ur help neway dumbarss
tru_m4n: l8r all
benny~tow: bye
Churchill: l8r
Stalin: fock u all
tru_m4n: shut up commie lol
*tru_m4n has left the game.*
benny~tow: lololol u commie
Churchill: ROFL
Churchill: bye commie
*Churchill has left the game.*
*benny~tow has left the game.*
Stalin: i hate u all studmuffins
*Stalin has left the game.*
paTTon: lol no1 is left
paTTon: weeeee i got a jeep
*paTTon has been eliminated.*
paTTon: o shiat!
*paTTon has left the game.*
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LOL!!!
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:rofl :rofl :rofl
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OMFG :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
diablo thas got to be one of the funniest things ive ever seen:lol :lol
It would help if we would know who some of the characters were..
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TOJO: Japan
Hitler:Germany
Patton:America...
SOME should seem familiar...
But yeah, AWESOME Diablo!!!
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"benny~tow" is Mussolini. He got killed and hung up on his feet.
So, he should have been #kicked by host# :D
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See Rule #2
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Told ya, P-38 mafia is out to get you. Who was that P-38 pilot that killed himself trying to strafe a ditched LW pilot? That video kinda reminded me of that...
Maybe an AH trainer could show those boys just how 'flaps' work...
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See Rule #5, #7, #2
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See Rule #2
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See Rule #2
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See Rule #6
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So, how about some more 109 stuff.
Something like performance of the 109E for instance, - 109E3 and the 109E7 for instance.
Have been looking for performance charts on those as well as the F-4, but have not come across anything good.
So, anyone????
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Man, what a POS Glasses became. Glad he got Skuzzied.
Anyway, back to the subject at hand, der 109.
BTW, I take no credit for that IRC WWII history, that's been around for years. But yes it's damn funny. My favorite part:
T0J0: wtf is nukes?
T0J0: holy ****holy****hoyl****!
*T0J0 has been eliminated.*
*The Allied team has won the game!*
Funny stuff.
My ride to work parked in front of my garage;
(http://www.graf-grislawski.elknet.pl/Photos/Bf109G5-1.jpg)
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Thats a beutiful picture! what is it, 109 G-14 with wing rockets? Okay, as for performance and 109 tactics. Anyone notice the 109s snap-roll left when stalling?
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Originally posted by Reynolds
Thats a beutiful picture! what is it, 109 G-14 with wing rockets? Okay, as for performance and 109 tactics. Anyone notice the 109s snap-roll left when stalling?
yep i knoe jus wat you talking about...
I fly 109's so much that I now fail to notice when its doing that.... either I got used to flying the 109 so much that I know when its about to do it and I ease off the stick OR it does it and I correct it without me even noticing...kinda like second nature to me
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So, whats the best way to counter that? For me it happens in two situations:
1. When i am flying defensively, with a bandit on my six, im low to the deck, and i try a snap-roll to either side. The roll gets out of control and i crash.
2. Im coming in for a landing, as slow as i can go (Standard procedure for me, which is normally for, because i first how to land on carriers, instead of airfields) Im pretty stable, but im dropping too fast, so i throttle up, and nose-up a very small bit. Suddenly my 109 (particularly the G-14 and K-4s) snap-rolls (left with a G-14, right with a K-4).
Whats the best recovery in these situations?
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dont increase angle attack if you're near stalling, unless you want to stall, which is fun
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Diablo did you make that whole thing up yourself? I bow before you, your the master !!! :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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Originally posted by Reynolds
So, whats the best way to counter that? For me it happens in two situations:
1. When i am flying defensively, with a bandit on my six, im low to the deck, and i try a snap-roll to either side. The roll gets out of control and i crash.
2. Im coming in for a landing, as slow as i can go (Standard procedure for me, which is normally for, because i first how to land on carriers, instead of airfields) Im pretty stable, but im dropping too fast, so i throttle up, and nose-up a very small bit. Suddenly my 109 (particularly the G-14 and K-4s) snap-rolls (left with a G-14, right with a K-4).
Whats the best recovery in these situations?
Well first of all 109's werent made to land on carriers and that probably why your going as slow as you can go..and when you go as slow as you can go it's inevitable that she's gonna snap roll on you....
If your landing on an airfield notice that its an airfield and not a cv... Use ALL of the runway...you dont have to go so slow to land her.. just make sure your speed under 160mph
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Yeah, the fist... 30-40 times i ever landed in any games it was on a carrier, so im used to going low and slow. But I CAN succesfully land a 109 on a carrier, come to a full stop, and take off again! :D
Also, those of you really interested in the luftwaffe, go to my squadron's not yet official website. I made it in the last 12 hours, so i didnt sleep at all. Everything on there i did all alone in the last day, so check it out. I have a long listing of Luftwaffe Medals and Awards you all might like. the site is:
WINGS OF DEATH Not-yet-official-website that i made in a day, and i made the forums too in a day too, and i think it looks really friggin awesome!!! and its relevant here because it has lots of Luftwaffe information on it! :D (http://www.freewebs.com/wings_of_death)
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All 109s should be landed slow, around 100 mph, in a 3-point attitude with full flaps and slats deployed. The 109 should always be stalled onto the runway. Not doing this was the mistake made by so many inexperienced 109 pilots during the war that the plane got a reputation for being dangerous on the ground. Landing a 109 fast is dangerous.
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Land the 109 around 100 mph on the 3 point. Make sure the slats are out (they should) and it's a piece of pie.
Want a challenge on a CV, try something big, - like a Lancaster :D
Or a 262....:D
Oh, and BTW about 5% of 109's were lost because of landing accidents. AFAIK that is.
If you are about to stall as well, and throttle to full power, you'll snap...
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What do you guys mean a 3 point landing, you mean touch down on all three weels at once? I try to touch nose weels first, like in real life, but about 20% of the time the propeller clips the ground, 1% its a real pretty landing, and the other 79% of the time all three weels touch at once.
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Originally posted by Reynolds
What do you guys mean a 3 point landing, you mean touch down on all three weels at once? I try to touch nose weels first, like in real life, but about 20% of the time the propeller clips the ground, 1% its a real pretty landing, and the other 79% of the time all three weels touch at once.
And thats why the finnish 109 pilots laughed at the germans landing their 109's like you do ;)
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What can i say... HEIL DEUTSCHLAND!!! lol. but no, whats it mean? should i drop all 3 weels at once? or what?
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O god who cares how one lands thier 109 as long as your on concrete when you click on tower :aok
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Well, i like to refuel and relaunch without ending sortie, so it would be nice not to nick the propeller. And i want to be GOOD at, not just good enough.
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ehem...Reynolds...the 109 is a taildragger.
No nosewheel.
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Originally posted by Angus
ehem...Reynolds...the 109 is a taildragger.
No nosewheel.
I think he ment to say main wheels Angus.;)
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Originally posted by Reynolds
What can i say... HEIL DEUTSCHLAND!!! lol. but no, whats it mean? should i drop all 3 weels at once? or what?
Remember that pitch is speed and throttle is alt :)
Just try to keep the plane just off the runway near stall and keep nose up then just let it settle onto all 3 wheels at once.
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Originally posted by Porta
FWIW, V24 had slotted flaps (Spaltklappe) while F-G-K series had plain flaps (Wölbungsklappe).
Well, the flaps itself of the V24 seem to be quite similar as in the 109E ie slotted (except the max angle being higher and the slot seem to more closed), while the radiator flaps seem to be quite close the design of the 109F.
gripen
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/852_1152452178_flap.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/852_1152452228_rad.jpg)
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So, again the question:
Land on all three weels at once? or the front (MAIN) weels and let it slow until the rear drops? (As i normally do)
Zoreztorer, you think all 3?
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Three wheels at once or as close to 3 wheels as possible. ie the tail wheel touches JUST slightly (fraction of a second) after the main wheels.
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Thats what normally happens entirely by accident actually
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Hey, what would you guys say if i started a Bf-109 club? Its not a squad, i would just create a website dedicated only to 109s. I would give all of you guys admin access, on one condition: You guys dont delete other people's posts, and we stick to just puting up information about 109s, all types. Would you guys be interested?
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Reynolds, on landing, keep your nose HIGH, resulting in all three wheels touching runway simultaneously (or as close as you can get). Make the apporach SLOW and shallow, on final control your altitude with THROTTLE. You want to hear the stall horn buzzing at touchdown.
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Okay, thanks! So, anyone interested in a 109 club?
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yall should meet at 1:09 every January ninth, lmao
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I would be intrested in the club.
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Originally posted by Debonair
yall should meet at 1:09 every January ninth, lmao
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Sure reynolds if you wanna take the time to do this, sure why not :aok
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Go here Reynolds. This guy's had the 109 addiction a lot longer :)
http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/index1024.htm
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Well, yeah. This one will be focused on the A/C in aces high though. Its an excellent resource though! Thanks!
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(http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/multimedia/wallpapers/jc.hartmann_g14-1024.bmp)
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(http://[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/KinGKillaTFD/109s.jpg)[/IMG]
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OH! Beutiful!!! Mind if I use that on the site? where the hell did you get it? whats the story behind it? its almost as beutiful as Diablo's! And Diablo, thanks for the full size. Thats definately going to be my desktop!
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Ive had that pic for a while..I forgot were I got it though....I like it cuz it can be interpreted anyway you want to..
Here are some 109 pics from the ARR-Aeronautica Regala Romana, (Romanian Royal Aeronautics) particularly Grupul 7 Vanatoare (7th Fighter Group)...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/KinGKillaTFD/wingies.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/KinGKillaTFD/Landing.jpg)
Grupul 7 Vanatoare's 109E
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/KinGKillaTFD/Emil.jpg)
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Are you romanian Platano?
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Originally posted by Angus
Are you romanian Platano?
lol no Im dominican but in AH I fly in a Rumanian squad :)
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Nice!
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Originally posted by Platano
Well first of all 109's werent made to land on carriers and that probably why your going as slow as you can go..and when you go as slow as you can go it's inevitable that she's gonna snap roll on you....
But 109 was made to land on a carrier. Bf 109T was the carrier version of the 109, with lenghtened wings, reinforcements and hook.
Also, 109s did not snap roll on stalling. The plane gave very clear warning when approaching stall and the wing slats enhanced slow speed flying qualities, AND eliminated sudden snaps to either side.
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Originally posted by Grendel
But 109 was made to land on a carrier. Bf 109T was the carrier version of the 109, with lenghtened wings, reinforcements and hook.
Also, 109s did not snap roll on stalling. The plane gave very clear warning when approaching stall and the wing slats enhanced slow speed flying qualities, AND eliminated sudden snaps to either side.
Okay. several things:
Yes, the T was a carrier, but it was modified. Es, Fs, Gs, and Ks dont have the nescesarry parts (hooks and a lengthened wings) to land on carriers.
No, a 109 K is not meant for carrier landings, but YES, it can be done without moderate damage to the airframe.
No, it doesnt snap-roll when i dont throttle up, it DOES nose down and to the left, and wont recover. When slowly throttling up it DOES snap-roll left, and YES i DO know that the torque of the engine causes that.
Maybe HTC needs to look at the 109 flight modelling. It may be the way i fly, or it may be the models. I dont know.
Also, i think a T would be a nice addition, so Deutschland can get it's foot in the door as far as carrier warfare. I know we didnt have any CVs commisioned, but we DID have the aircraft! :D
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Reynolds,
just noticed your sig....
Guess who I met last weekend in Duxford in Flying Legends airshow?
I bought his new book called "Wings on my Sleeve" and he also signed the book with best wishes.
Yup... that very same gentleman :)
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Damn! I wish i had the money to travel and see these shows and meet these people... DAMN THE UNIVERSE FOR MAKING ME 13!!!
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BlauK: I envy you.
And Reynolds: I wish I had all those years that have passed since I was 13 as perks :D
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hey, i just wanna be 17, and go off the USAFA, and join the Air Force already!!!:furious :furious :cry :furious :furious
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Okay, lets have some votes, whats your favorite 109?
I vote the Emil! (Bright Yellow skin!!!)
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G-2 with LLv34 skin... naturally ;)
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Yeah, i use the G2/R6 when attacking towns
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109F
(Then comes the G-14)
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Originally posted by Platano
Reynolds like i said what u cant out turn you can outclimb....
Engine Power/Climb rate...in order from worst to best..
109E-4
109F-4
109G-6
109G-2
109G-14
109K-4
The F-4 EASILY outclimbs the G-2 and G-6.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
The F-4 EASILY outclimbs the G-2 and G-6.
:noid your buggin.... This coming from someone that has recently discovered the wonders of the F4...
NEwayz..my favourite 109 would have to be the G2 with the jg54 brigh brownish skin..followed by the ....umm..what's it called reynolds Konrad?
yea that one...
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Originally posted by Platano
:noid your buggin.... This coming from someone that has recently discovered the wonders of the F4...
NEwayz..my favourite 109 would have to be the G2 with the jg54 brigh brownish skin..followed by the ....umm..what's it called reynolds Konrad?
yea that one...
Platan0, I've been playing for over 4 years. I've flown em all. Yes, the F4 will outclimb the G2 and G6. It also did in WWII. When I flew NAZGUL (my first squad) I flew the 109's all of the time.
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He may have you there platano, i recently noticed i actually get a VERY SLIGHTLY better climb rate with the F. I like the JG54 skin myself, only i like the green one.
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He may have you there platano, i recently noticed i actually get a VERY SLIGHTLY better climb rate with the F. I like the JG54 skin myself, only i like the green one.
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Originally posted by Reynolds
He may have you there platano, i recently noticed i actually get a VERY SLIGHTLY better climb rate with the F. I like the JG54 skin myself, only i like the green one.
ok wateva..but lemme point somthing out..
"F-4 EASILY outclimbs G-2 and G-6"
now lets comepare that with:
"i recently noticed i actually get a VERY SLIGHTLY better climb rate with the F"
umm who's right here? :confused:
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Originally posted by Platano
ok wateva..but lemme point somthing out..
"F-4 EASILY outclimbs G-2 and G-6"
now lets comepare that with:
"i recently noticed i actually get a VERY SLIGHTLY better climb rate with the F"
umm who's right here? :confused:
Look at the numbers. No question it will "Easily outclimb em". I don;t want to, have to or desire to be right. All I can do is help and educate others. Damn, you try and help others and they rake you over the f**king coals.
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Well Platano, im not saying hes entirely right, but the F does out-climb the G2 under certain cercumstances.
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Originally posted by Reynolds
Well Platano, im not saying hes entirely right, but the F does out-climb the G2 under certain cercumstances.
Those circumstances would be limited to a zoom climb where the 109F had a significant advantage in speed at the start. The 109F also climbs better between 12,000 and 18,000 feet.
Let's review the performance of the two. First, go to DokGonzo's site (http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php) and do a comparison of the two.
Second, we can compare actual test data taken offline. Climb was measured beginning at 300 mph @ 50 feet ASL, up to 10k. This introduces a zoom climb that breaks down to a steady-state climb. I find this is an excellent way to establish climb in a combat environment. Data shown is time-to-height recorded in minutes:seconds:10ths of seconds:100ths of seconds. 25% fuel was used with zero burn.
Bf 109F-4 - 1:59:90
Bf 109G-2 - 1:51:62
They are close enough that the difference would not likely effect the outcome of a fight where speeds were similar, but the 109G-2 certainly has the advantage in a straight climb up to about 12k, with its biggest advantage being seen between 5k and 6k.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
Those circumstances would be limited to a zoom climb where the 109F had a significant advantage in speed at the start. The 109F also climbs better between 12,000 and 18,000 feet.
Let's review the performance of the two. First, go to DokGonzo's site (http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php) and do a comparison of the two.
Second, we can compare actual test data taken offline. Climb was measured beginning at 300 mph @ 50 feet ASL, up to 10k. This introduces a zoom climb that breaks down to a steady-state climb. I find this is an excellent way to establish climb in a combat environment. Data shown is time-to-height recorded in minutes:seconds:10ths of seconds:100ths of seconds. 25% fuel was used with zero burn.
Bf 109F-4 - 1:59:90
Bf 109G-2 - 1:51:62
They are close enough that the difference would not likely effect the outcome of a fight where speeds were similar, but the 109G-2 certainly has the advantage in a straight climb up to about 12k, with its biggest advantage being seen between 5k and 6k.
My regards,
Widewing
Well, which can climb... more severly? I know there is a steady climb rate, but when i fly the G2, i can climb to run a lot better than with the F4, but if i want to start high, i find the F4 is better. No idea why, it just seems that way to me.
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all a G-14 really is a 109 in a G2 body frame with an improved engine and weapons (2x12.7MG's and the 30mm cannon)..thus making it heavier and less manuverable than a G-2..In a way it falls between the categories of a G6 and a K-4 [/B]
just to pick nits.
1) the german mg131 is 13mm not 12.7 aka .50cal. while better than the mg15/17 of the earlier 109s it's about (a little more than half) half as powerful round for round vs the browning or shvak 12.7mm heavy machine guns due to mass and velocity reasons. mg131 falls to fourth just behind the italian safat 12.7mm for HMG aviation guns.
2) the g14 was based off the G6 frame and was more or less a combination of sub types into the ultimate and last 'G6' type 109. the g14 could'nt possibly be based off the G2 as the G2 was in fact based off the F series frame. G14 appeared after the g10 btw.
3) regarding the climb rate discussion (just above this post), i dont know how the planes fly in AH2. i more or less lurk on these forums but plan to give AH2 a try since im bored with everything else. anyways, the G2 should be in everyway superior to the F4 in terms of climb rate. the G2 IS an F4 w/ a more powerful engine (db605-A 1475hp vs db601-N 1355hp) and an improved prop (better thrust) while only being about 70kg heavier*. apparently this game has them modeled such that there isnt a major difference and in reality i suppose it isnt that huge but the G2 should outpace it at all altitudes by an appreciable amount.
*other differences were the exterior wind screen armor was moved inside the canopy (already done on some late type F4s) and different radios. also the side cowling had some very minor differences too, almost not worth mentioning.
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w00t!!! Another 109 buff! :aok
When you get into the game, fly for the Knights and look up the 303rd Bombardment Group!
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Welcome madrebel, I hope you don't fully abandon that "other game" yet.
You are also welcome to Rookland on my behalf.
Chrg ;)
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Well, no matter where you go, dont go Bishop! lol. But join a squad, a J/G if you like 109s. May I suggets KG200 though? Im sure nonsense uses fighters a lot as well, and he is a great commander. If you are a fan of B-17s however come with us at the 303rd! All nonsense has is MY old bird 'Flak Wolf'! Bloody theif... lol j/k. Nonsense is great. But join a squad when you enter the game, meantime, we would love to hear more of your thoughts on the 109. I am currently experimenting with the Emil, and am finding it decidedly lethal, especially against late-war spitfires! As long as you get them while they are turning, they are as good as dead!
For those of you who enjoy the Emil as I do, I find a great trick offensively is to slash across a fighter while its turning. I find spitfires especially, 16s are weakest in this, but their pilots tend to be... 'cocky'. They think a 109 cant turn inside them, and wont waste the ammo by slashing. When the see that it is an Emil, they dont even bother trying to avoid getting hit. Just slash across their nose, fire for a second or two, and then duck him. If you are accurate enough, they wont survive! Defensively, I like to cut the throttle and roll alot. Its not that effective, but since I am having such severe rudder trouble, its about all I can do.
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You're welcome to duel my Spit 16 in yer Emil anytime :D
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Originally posted by Angus
You're welcome to duel my Spit 16 in yer Emil anytime :D
Thats not fair! Your GOOD!!! Those 'Dirty Luftwaffe Tricks' only work on Spit Dweebs!
note: just because you fly a spit, doesnt mean you are a spit dweeb. You must be crappy pilot who can only kill things because your plane rocks.
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Originally posted by Reynolds
Thats not fair! Your GOOD!!! Those 'Dirty Luftwaffe Tricks' only work on Spit Dweebs!
note: just because you fly a spit, doesnt mean you are a spit dweeb. You must be crappy pilot who can only kill things because your plane rocks.
Me good?
Naaa. Just evil :D
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Originally posted by Charge
Welcome madrebel, I hope you don't fully abandon that "other game" yet.
You are also welcome to Rookland on my behalf.
Chrg ;)
not leaving 'that other game' until they turn the power off. i am a little frustrated with the recent 'enhancements' though and have been meaning to give AH an honest go for awhile.
might be fun to bring some of my jg51 boys over for some squad fun once in awhile or something, i dont know.
anywho, wish this game and 'that other game' combined dev houses to create the ultimate ww2 prop sim ;).
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Yeah, I've heard that the weather has been rather bad for flying lately... :D
-C+
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Hey, am I the ONLY one who flies the Emil regularyly??? Ive seen every other plane in the game (EVERY SINGEL ONE) flown by someone else more than once, EXCEPT the 109E! I have never EVER seen anyone (Friend or foe) land voctories or even fly one. Does anyone else fly it regularly?
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Originally posted by Reynolds
Hey, am I the ONLY one who flies the Emil regularyly??? Ive seen every other plane in the game (EVERY SINGEL ONE) flown by someone else more than once, EXCEPT the 109E! I have never EVER seen anyone (Friend or foe) land voctories or even fly one. Does anyone else fly it regularly?
before I joined the 56th I'm sure some people know I was a 109 jock....
and the Emil was one of my mainstay rides aside form the g2 or k4....I up an emil here and there once in a while..
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Wierd. Never seen one in combat before...
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Originally posted by Reynolds
Wierd. Never seen one in combat before...
I guess because all u see in MA is late war rides, and the Emil is outclassed
in almost every way that some people dont even bother to fly it.....
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Okay, there was one in FT las night! I salute whoever was flying that!
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Don't salute 'em unless they flew it well :t
Some folks take up the 109E or the C202 or the P40B/E because they hear other folks raving about 'em, then they really haven't quite learned the intricacies of flying them. If they're free bait, snap 'em up. If they're not bad then give 'em a salute.
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saw one E4 in FT today also, and I shot him down (we were playing trains over the pond lol)
about the F4 and G2 and their weak differences on climb, I'd like to say that 100hp is nothing, something like 7% of the total, wich is very little in an air combat. I think that a very small error in your climb angle choice or too much fuel loaded can cost way more.
The F4 is a great ride on MA because it has very decent turns and speed, and is forgiving on stalls. Many people don't know the plane at all and most noob pilots in their la7 and spit16 want to turn with you, and I often gladly accept their invitations niark niark. (BTW was it facing the spit5 or spit9 in RL ? poor spit5 pilots)
And once I made a good ride I get a spit14 with the perks and start freaking the runners (they see you coming fast on 6 but they don't believe it !!! too funny !!. but it is out of subject)
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Hey! I fly a P-40E and I suck at it!!! Well, I did kill 3 Nikkis, a Spit8, a Spit16, an La7...