Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: LtHans on October 27, 2001, 05:20:00 AM
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It seems to me that the RAF has the option of buying F-24s (the official number of the X-35 prototype Joint Strike Fighter) instead of the Eurofighter 2000.
From what I understand the Eurofighter was mainly run by Germany, which had to cut back alot because of costs in their reunification with East Germany. The Eurofighter seems to be hanging in limbo.
Of course, the USAF F-22 Raptor seems to be in a similar situation. There was supposed to be a squadron or two of those up and flying by now, but all I have heard is problems getting the final design worked out in manufacturing, and reluctance by the government to actually buy them.
I guess noboby wants new planes? Of all these new generation planes only the Saab Grippen is up and flying, mainly because it was cheap.
Who's going to fly what?
Hans.
[ 10-27-2001: Message edited by: LtHans ]
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I think the JSF is only replacing the ageing Gr3/FA2 Harriers. The Euro Fighter is the Tornado F1,Gr4 replacement.
Tronsky
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I read the if the EF2000 takes more time, the plane will end up costing even more than the F-22
Then it would be dumb to buy Eurofighters..
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Eurofighter is doing very well, thank you.
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The JSF will replace the Harrier GR9 (updated from GR7 in 2002/3) and the Sea Harrier FA.2 and their respective training Harriers (T4 & T10). Both the RAF and Royal Navy Harriers are part of Joint Force 2000 and will operate from RAF Cottesmore and RAF Wittering, as well as operating from the future aircraft carrier project. Although the JSF is at a fairly advanced stage it is still uncertain whether it will enter service with both the US and British military due to escalating costs and future expenditure cuts to their countries military budgets. The main reason for this is due to the over budget of the F22 within the US budget.
As for the Eurofighter Typhoon, it's cost is already over that of the F22 - there were major delays when Germany nearly pulled out their share of the four consortiums involved in the project.
The Eurofighter enters RAF service in 2003 at RAF Coningsby under a newly formed 29 (Reserve) Squadron and as the Operational Conversion Unit (OCU). There will also be an Operational Evaluation Unit (OEU) which will either be at Coningsby or BAe Warton. In 2004/5/6 it will enter service at RAF Leeming and RAF Leuchars with 111 Sqn and 43 Sqn accordingly. Current Tornado F3s (ADV) will be phased out of service over the next 10 - 15 years.
Initially it will consist of single seat fighters and tandem seat training aircraft. Future projects may advance the Typhoon to the Ground Attack & Reconnaisance (GR) role within the RAF where it may eventually replace the Panavia Tornado GR4 (IDS) and also the SEPECAT Jaguar GR3.
Regards
Nexx
[ 10-27-2001: Message edited by: Replicant ]
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Well, talking costs here the JSF projects main goal was to get a good fighter (not a great fighter, just a good one) for a good price.
Price was the main goal. Make it affordable.
From what I have read so far this is actually comming true in the JSF project. Most planes end up running over budget and costing more than was originally planned. My information says that for the first time when the company that developed the plane said it would cost X amount of money per plane, this time it will actually cost X amount.
The figues I have seen for the JSF put it about 28 million for an airforce version, 30 million for the Jump Jet, and 32 million for the navy carrier version. I don't know why the Jump Jet is cheaper than the conventional carrier version, but it is.
Each F-22 Raptor will cost about 100 million.
I don't know about you, but I think with the threats we face in the future we need planes that don't cost an arm and a leg, but still marginally better than the planes we already have. The USAF said they won't buy the JSF if it is worse than their current F-16s. It wouldn't make any sense to go backwards.
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One must say that the F-16 is a damned fine airplane. Still alive and kicking arse very much. Apart from the latest top of the line fighters, which aren't out in numbers except the Gripen, it pretty much kicks anything's ass. Well, not counting the F-15 :)
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I talked to some people at British Aerospace (as was) involved in Eurofighter. In a simulation of combat survivability the F-16 had its survivability rated at 16%, the F-15 at something like 40%, the Eurofighter at 86% and the F-22 at 95%.
Just looking at production costs, what are the projected per unit costs for the F-22, the Typhoon and the Grippen? I'm betting the F-22 costs way more than the Typhoon. :)
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Originally posted by Dowding:
I talked to some people at British Aerospace (as was) involved in Eurofighter. In a simulation of combat survivability the F-16 had its survivability rated at 16%, the F-15 at something like 40%, the Eurofighter at 86% and the F-22 at 95%.
Just looking at production costs, what are the projected per unit costs for the F-22, the Typhoon and the Grippen? I'm betting the F-22 costs way more than the Typhoon. :)
Hi Dowding
The last I heard was that the Typhoon was going to cost loads more than the F22! I can't remember the exact prices but the Typhoon was somewhere in the region of £30 - 40 million, whereas the F22 was in the region of £15 - 25 million. I think the main reason why the F22 is cheaper is because they're building greater numbers and also have a level of lower avionics costs. The price of the Typhoon almost doubled because of the fiasco that Germany put the project in when they almost pulled out. I think some of the other three nations involved had to take some of the extra cost with Germany taking a smaller slice.
The main problem now is that as the F22 is going to be considerably cheaper it will be a lot easier to sell than the more expensive Typhoon. Remember that the Typhoon is running about 5 - 10 years behind schedule and that doesn't come cheap! Additionally the basic Typhoon is the fighter variant that will replace the Panavia Tornado F3 within RAF service. The expected Ground Attack & Reconnaisance version that will replace the Tornado GR4 will come at an even greater expence. So, because of this hike in price the anticipated numbers of Typhoons that will enter service will be lower than the original order. I think the only country outside of the consortium to show any interest is regular customer Saudi Arabia and possibly Kuwait.
So, in all I believe the Typhoon will be a top class aircraft BUT I don't think it will be a successful export aircraft.
Regards
Nexx
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Now if we finally realise that there's no threat from the East any more spending millions of dollars/pounds/marks/whatevers on a plane with the only purpose to get air superiority over those pesky MiGs and Su's does look daft. If and when Russia joins NATO the source for any advanced military plane will be cut off for the Middle East (not that they can use them anyway). The only other potential "enemy" with supersonic capability is China but they can't even fly around big slow moving planes safely ;). Why is all this massive expense still necessary?
:rolleyes:
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We Brits need to defend ourselves from the French ;)
There are multiple possible flashpoints - India/China, China/Russia, Arabia, Libya, Malaysia, etc ad nauseam.
Even against guerrillas, air superiority is important - control the air and your ground troops are at less risk.
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Didn't know that Nexx. The guy definitely said the F-22 was more expensive, but it was a year and half ago. Perhaps they decided to gold plate the Typhoon cockpit or something? ;)
Lynx - it's called job security and national pride. The Eurofighter project must employ thousands alone. Unlike previous Labour governments, the current lot show no intentions of reducing military strength in any great amount.
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I heard the F-22 was going to cost in the range of almost $180 million/copy considering in all the development expenses and the reduced number that are being purchased. The Eurofighter was in the range of $60-80 million a copy. The JSF was supposed to be in the $30-35 million/copy range though that was only accurate if the overall development costs were factored over almost 3,000 total aircraft. Other current aircraft, for reference, were the F-18E at ~$60 million, Rafale @ ~$65 million, and Gripen @ ~ $40 million... (all estimates from different sources and might only include airframe costs, not including spares, etc).
Nowhere have I read that the Eurofighter is even close in cost to the F-22 and I would be very astonished to find that the truth. Then again, typically, fighter design costs appear to have the expenses mostly associated with the engine (20% of total cost) and avionics (30% of total cost) so the airframe only accounts for 50% of the price. Still, the exotic nature of much of the F22 would carry a premium I would think (materials, special avionics, weapons bays, thrust vectoring, etc).
btw, I'd be really surprised if the JSF ends up in the $30 million/copy range. Maybe if the overall buy exceeds 3,000 units, but the early purchased models will most likely cost more and the late purchase models way less. The engine and avionics alone are still going to be very expensive.
-Soda
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I tried looking at work today where I read this information about the F22 being cheaper than the Eurofighter. What I do remember is sitting back and thinking that it would be cheaper to equip the RAF with the F22 so it couldn't have been more expensive than the Eurofighter. I'll continue looking through the MOD/RAF publications.
Remember than the initial order of the F22 was for it to replace all F15s, F16s and other used aircraft, so we're talking about a BIG order. Divide that by the total cost and you've got price per plane. As the Eurofighter is only going to be bought by the UK, Germany, Spain and Italy then it's going to have a lower production outlay hence high cost. Possible buyers include Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and the Netherlands and Norway are still yet undecided.
Regards
Nexx
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I don't think the F-22 was ever envisioned as a replacement for the F-16. They are designed for totally different roles and the largest number of F-22's I ever heard being considered for purchase was only 750. That would barely make a dent in the US F-16 fleet. Current projections have only 200-250 being aquired, not even enough to replace all the F-15's 1 for 1. The F-22 is one very expensive bird.
I honestly think the Eurofighter will have a good opportunity to take a nice portion of the mid-heavy fighter market worldwide. The JSF is considered too light, as is Gripen. The Rafale carrys around some performance concerns and compatibility concerns with a price that runs about the same as the Typhoon. Other than that, Sukoi is the only real fighter manufacturer that could put out a competing product. The new MiG (1.44) and Su (Su-40 or whatever the new name is) are pure demonstration aircraft with a new russian "jsf" type model still a couple of years away from first flight. I read an article last week saying the russian JSF is still just a paper aircraft and little if any design work has been even started yet.
Anyone looking for a heavy weight fighter and can't afford an F-22 will have little choice but to look seriously at the Eurofighter. Then again, a lot might go with lightweight JSF's for the price.
-Soda
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Just got some prices on the Typhoon from the Eurofighter website:-
The costs ...
In January 1998, Eurofighter GmbH and EuroJet Turbo GmbH signed production, production investment and support contracts for these 620 aircraft worth ~$32B (billion U.S dollars), pricing each aircraft at some £33M ($50M). In a written response by Robert Walmsley (the Chief Executive for Defence Procurement in the UK) to a House of Commons question on the 6th of July 1999 stated that the current total UK program cost at current (1998/99) prices was £16.1B. Assuming that R&D still accounts for £4.4B (as it did for 1997/98 prices) each RAF aircraft (inclusive of all non-R&D costs) sits at £50.5M ($79.6M). According to the RAF the actual unit cost of each aircraft will be around £40-45M ($62.4M-70.2M). Why three different prices? Well it must be remembered that no standard Eurofighter exists, each nation can modify the basic system to fit their requirements. For price comparisons though a good estimate would be between £40million and £50million since the RAF model will offer the highest basic specification.
According to the F22 website, the F22 should be around $83million compared to the $70.2million RAF version of the Typhoon (be costly if it works out at the $79million price!).
There are variations of the price of the F22 which is between $70million and $110million and I believe this has something to do with the difference in F22s that are going to be ordered. Originally it was going to be for about 700-800 aircraft, but now stands at 339 aircraft.
So, the prices are not too far apart and until they actually go up for sale we won't know exactly just how much they'll both cost.
Regards
Nexx
[ 10-29-2001: Message edited by: Replicant ]
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The GAO (General Accounting Office) for the US lists the price of the F-22 at $40.8-$48.6 billion for 339 aircraft. That equates to a unit cost of $120-$143 million/aircraft.
From GAO office document on F22 costs:
Both Office of the Secretary and Air Force cost estimators projected F-22
production costs that exceeded the congressional cost limitation of $39.8
billion in effect at that time. In 1999, after considering the potential of
all the cost reduction plans, the Air Force estimated F-22 production costs
at $40.8 billion, and the Office of the Secretary of Defense estimated
production costs at $48.6 billion. Both estimates were based on the
production of 339 aircraft.
The govt seems to figure it can reduce this number though by cost cutting measures and creative purchasing (stockpiling of materials). They suggest industry should be able to meet a price figure in the range of $71 million/copy. That sounds a little optimistic if you ask me since that could be as little as half price.
For comparison, the F18D would cost $28 million to manufacture (when last manufactured) and the F18E would be $64 million (in 1997 dollars) because of the reduced buy level. F15 aircraft were procured through 1998 at a unit cost of $46 million. (All GAO numbers).
A F-22 at $71 million would be quite the deal if it is possible. Still, I doubt that they can slash the price that much and bet the real cost will still be around $100 million/aircraft.
-Soda
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................ergo the reason for the JSF project.
Cut costs.
The JSF was specifically designed to be cheaper than most comparable fighters.
The information I have said a study by the appropriations commitee in the US government figures at the current rate of fight plane costs, the USAF could afford only a single fighter in 2050.
So, no more super expensive planes. Sure, make them better, but don't bother if it is more expensive than the gear we have now. It would make more sense to keep buying F-15s and F-16s otherwise.
300 F-22s and 3,000 F-35 JSFs. There will be ten JSFs for every F-22.
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In reponse to Soda,
The US is not replacing F-16's with F-F22s.
Today its like this,
"Super fighter" = F-15 in modest(?) numbers.
"Workhorse fighter" = F-16 by the boat load.
Tommorow it's going to be,
"Super fighter" = F-22 in modest numbers.(335 est.)
"Workhorse fighter" = F-35(JSF) by the boat load.(3000+ est.)
So the JSF is to the F-16 like what the F-22 is the the F-15.
I suppose you could also equate the lineages to the navy too.
Today is F-14D's supported by F-18D's.
Tommorow is F-18E's(a bigger better F-18) supported by F-35C's.
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The reason that the Eurofighter is still around here is that Germany - though cutting costs drastically - needs a new fighter for the Luftwaffe ASAP. The old Phantoms are now over 20 years old and the MiG29 - though being a damn fine AC - are not that suitable for NATO missions. And to buy american planes is not acceptable for the german weapon industry as it would reduce their income to almost zero. You know that our Bundeswehr has some serious issues concerning aging tech and money. That we have former peace-protesters and leftist pacifists in our government doesn“t help either. :(
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I knew the JSF was not to replace the F-15, my wording just wasn't clear. I was pointing out that to replace the F-16's you would need a lot more than the 340ish F-22's that are being bought. Those 340 would barely replace the F-15's. To replace all the F-18C/D's, F-16's, Harriers and A10's you'd need something that gets produced in at least 3,000 units. Thus the reason for something cheaper than an F-22.
The F-16 was originally meant as a way to cut costs also... but as it's capabilities were increased/realized, it started to get more expensive also.
I think the Germans/Brits/Italians will do fine with the Eurofighter. The Tornado program ran into many of the same issues as Eurofighter with each country opting for slightly different equipment fits so this is an area where they've been before. It apppears to be a very good plane with a lot of growth potential so should serve anyone who owns them very well.
The Germans certainly do have a problem with their aging aircraft but so do a number of other airforces in Europe right now. I'm sure the costs of operating and maintaining planes like the Phantom are getting high. This is a trend though with most airforces right now. Lots of the European F-16s have gone through Mid Life Upgrades but they are still aquiring a lot of flight hours on the airframes. The Brits have a lot of hours on their Tornado, Jaguer and Harrier airframes even though most of them have received a lot of upgrades also. It's just time for some new airframes. This isn't just a European issue either, the US has the same problem where a lot of their airframes have gathered a lot of hours of flight time. The US has only been buying small numbers of replacement aircraft in recent budgets before the start of F18E and F22 production. Now they will be starting a wholesale replacement of these with new aircraft.
-Soda
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Well Soda but the fine difference is that the US has money where most EU countries lack it :(
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Soda said:
I think the Germans/Brits/Italians will do fine with the Eurofighter.
The sentence should be:
I think the Germans/Brits/Italians/spaniards will do fine with the Eurofighter.
Greetings from Spain :D