Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Custom Skins => Topic started by: Fencer51 on July 02, 2006, 10:02:21 PM
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This 109G6 is possibly unique. There is one picture of it that I have found, Page 51 of Aircraft of the Luftwaffe Fighter Aces I by Bernard Barbas.
There is also a profile on page 179 of Volume II of that book series.
To quote the text,
"Fw Horst Petzschler flew this very unusual Messerschmitt in 2./JG3, although he normally operated with JG 51. He had a total of 26 victories including four American aircraft. On 30th May 1944 his friend Fw Otto Bussow was shot down and killed in this aircraft. This particular Bf-109G-6 AS is one of the few if not the only well documented single-seat German fighter in overall RLM 76 camouflage. This national markings and number were all in black but the camouflage had been compromised by the black-and-white sprial spinner. The engine cowling carried the markings of JG 3 in red and white. The exhaust grime on the rear fuselage was quite noticeable. This exceptionally pale style of camouflage was used for aircraft flying high-altitude cover as did the Bf 109s of the second Staffel under Oblt Bohatsch when the unit's Fw 190s required extra protection."
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Pic 2:
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Pic 3:
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Ahhh, quite interesting!
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Petzschler flew a G-6/AS, a completely different aircraft then the standard G-6. The cowling was completely re-designed and its performance was much better then the AH G-6 (and G-14) at altitude (higher FTH).
Neither the G-6 or G-14 models are suitable as a substitute for a G-6/AS or G-14/AS. The 109K is closest but its performs well above either G-6/AS or G-14/AS.
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Thanks Bruno, I was wondering what the AS meant and the differences between it and the regular G6.
I think I will complete it and send it in as it is unique and surely with the allowances being made on the spitfires as to skins on different aircraft they will allow it.
Unless there is a Luftwaffe bias. :rofl
Cheers
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The differences are to great imho. It would be like putting a P-51D skin on an A-36.
The tail is different, the canopy, the cowling, the oil cooler and more importantly the performance. The standard G-6 entered service in Feb '43 the G-6/AS didn't enter service until April / May '44 and in very limited numbers being replaced by the G-14/AS in July '44. The variation is far more different then what Kev is doing with the Spitfires...
To see a side by side comparison of a standard G-6 and G-6/AS check this page (http://www.markstyling.com/bf109gs5.htm). Just scroll down and you will see a profile of Petzschler's AS and compare it to the G-6 above it.
FYI, Here's a scanned image of Petzschler's G-6/AS:
(http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/o/wotans/schwarze14.jpg)
As you can see the nose spiral is of the much wider version.
Most G-6/AS aircraft were painted all over RLM 76 because they were 'high altitude aircraft'. The color isn't that 'unique' for G-6/AS aircraft. If you do an image search of Walter Ösau's Grün 13 or Jagdgeschwader 1 you should come across several more G-6/AS in the same scheme.
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I think bruno exaggerates a bit. The AS meant it was geared toward high-alts, like the differences between a spit LFIX and a spit HFIX, for example.
We've got various different spits and spit engines, but we put them on the same "type" skin. The same should go for the G6/AS. The type is clearly G6, even if the engine is geared for 10k of more alt.
I say do it.
EDIT: Suggestion, you could submit it for the G14. It's got the tall tail and the galland hood. That might be a better match.
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You have no idea what you are talking about Crusty (as usual). The G-6/AS is different plane then either the G-6 or G-14, completely different.
The majority of LW skins in game already are full errors it gets comical at a certain level. I agree one more won't make a difference but it won't because folks don't know 'better'. If folks work together to 'push up the standards' we all benefit. I am not talking about the quality of 'work' put into the skin but of the choices some folks make. After all there were 12000 G-6s produced and there's enough variety of schemes, many more unique then all over RLM 76, to keep G-6 skinner occupied for years.
Fencer can certainly submit it as is, that's up to him. All I am doing is pointing out the fact that the standard G-6 is not a G-6/AS and the performance difference is in upwards of 25 mph at FTH and not to mention the physical differences.
If folks are following Skuzzy's suggestion to link back to these threads when submitting a skin they (HTC) will judge the information provided in these posts on their own.
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The AS engines were just that, different engines. They were meant to perform better at higher altitudes. The plane itself was any old plane off the line. The non-WEP power was about the same as a non-AS engine.
EDIT: the physical differences led me to suggest skinning it for the G14 (tall tail and galland hood). [misread what you said on the spinner, deleted comment here] I think in some late AS models they smoothed out the cowling bulges, as in the K-4.
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Ya know I am beginning to see why people don't do German aircraft skins. You cannot please the Luftwaffe guys. I got my first clue when the discussion of shades of grey and the 3 or so websites I check and the book references as well all were different. :rolleyes:
Bruno, I bow before your superiour knowledge. Thats why I post skins here for review. I will grant you that the canopy is different but does that mean that we cannot skin any G6s that have the galland hood?
The rudder is different? Well gee I can see that, but in the air thats not even noticable. Huh, no humps for the MGs. Thats the only major difference I see. Its called a G6. A P-51D-5 is alot different than a P-51D-25 as well. Don't even get me started on the P-51K. As fall as that goes a P-51B with a malcom hood is alot different than a P-51B without.
Krusty, I appreciate the idea of moving it to a G14 but that would be like putting a P-51B-15 on a P-51D-5 imho. So lets see what the community says. I will go with the majority. Even better yet.. Skuzzy you have an opinion?
I am not crazy about this skin to the point I will submitt it no matter what. Its a neat skin, and its something different.
Off to the next project.
Thanks all.
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My idea of putting it on the G14 actually came from Kev and his spitfires. Kev (I think it was him) tries to match the pointed tail or rounded tail, the clipped or non-clipped wings, and the 50cal or .303cal armament to the best model we have in the game, (for example) rather than just its designation.
I think in AH our G14 has the tall tail and the galland hood. I think it's also about 20-25mph faster. The only main problem would be the full throttle height difference between the G14 and G6/AS
Again, just explaining why I suggested it. It's up to you.
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considering there are currently zero G6 skins, other than default, go with G6. :aok There are 2 G14 skins as is. Granted, I dont know what has been sent in, but as they have stated before...If a better skin is sent in and that plane is full of skins, the best will be put up for use. imo anyways.
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Bruno, I bow before your superiour knowledge.
I only post information because some folks don't know. If you are happy with the G-6/AS as a G-6 then there's no problem with that. Submit it :) I am no more informed then what can be found in any decent book.
Thats why I post skins here for review.
So do I, see one of my skin threads:
Bf 109K-4 - 9./JG53 - Lechfeld - May 1945 (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=177990)
My G-14 16./JG 53 skin was recently updated due to new information that I found. I believed from the first images I saw of the aircraft that the gruppe symbol was blue. I later found better images that showed they were white:
(http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/o/wotans/16JG53.jpg)
After further research I found out why. The information I have now indicates this plane belonged to 13./JG 53 and then was transferred to 16./JG 53 just before Bodenplatte. That explains why number is blue, and gruppe mark white.
My point neing is the more information the better. I posted information about this particualr 109 and gave my opinion. What ever happens from here is up to those on high.
I will grant you that the canopy is different but does that mean that we cannot skin any G6s that have the galland hood?
Late G-6 had Erla Haube, they then even had tall tails but even then the cowling on a G-6/G-14 and G-6/AS / G-14/AS are different, there's no bulges, the oil cooler is larger etc... The old G-6 model was almost exactly like the G-14 but as requested HTC re-did the model to the early variant (exception armored glass).
The difference between a G-6 and G-6/AS isn't just the Erla Haube or the tail. It's not just the cowling. It's all that combined with the fact the performance between the two is different. How many differences does there need to be before it is 'different'?
Why not do G-2s as G-6s, these are closer in comparison then the G-6 to G-6/AS. They both are called 'Gustav'...
As I said there were 12000 G-6s produced. Far more then any other 109 variant. There's enough paint scheme variety among these 12000 to keep any skinner busy for years. See the link I gave above. I just don't understand the need to cram a circular peg into a square whole.
YMMV
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There are 2 G14 skins as is.
Yeah those G-14s are mine I have about 3 more doen (or just about done) but I won't send them in until I see how many others submit G-14s. I am re-doing the G-6s I did and had in game before the last 109 updates. G-6s from JG53 (Rollwage) in particular. I am going to do a JG5 G-6 as well.
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The AS engines were just that, different engines. They were meant to perform better at higher altitudes. The plane itself was any old plane off the line. The non-WEP power was about the same as a non-AS engine.
Incorrect, the G-6/AS had the larger supercharger of a DB603. It's performance at 'climb and combat' power (military in AH terms) is different not just at wep nor just at high altitude.
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eah those G-14s are mine I have about 3 more doen
very nice sir. thought those were yours.
You have any K4's in the works? I love Nravens skins, but variety is the spice of life...so ive been told.
The only G14 ive seen done and said was submitted was a winter camo G14 driven by Herr Hartmann.
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You have any K4's in the works
See the link above for more info:
(click on thumbnail below)
(http://img104.potato.com/loc28/th_91574_9JG535.jpg) (http://img104.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc28&image=91574_9JG535.jpg)
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Finally finished this plane as the recommended G14.
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You have really been doing some great work on these birds Fencer. That looks fantastic :)
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I remember that plane! I was *wondering* if it was ever going to turn up! Thanks, man!