Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: leonid on November 08, 2000, 06:08:00 AM
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America. If it was it would've been 80/20, Bush. It's heartening to see that liberals still have the edge (don't forget the Nader votes).
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tsk tsk tsk.......
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Yeager
[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 11-08-2000).]
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Oh, my! Is that a threat? That's so typically conservative! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Oh, I see you've edited it. You must be a little more sane than the rest after all (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 11-08-2000).]
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dufus double post
[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 11-08-2000).]
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Yeager, don't forget liberals think all military personal only count as 3/5s of a person (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
At this point I fear no matter who ends up with the power that the price of oil is only going higher, prolly no reform of the Social Security system, spending going higher, a downturn in the economy, and more Americans turning to the Federal Government to solve even more of their daily problems. It just looks very sad at this point,very sad (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
My faith in the American people is currently very low (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Will we have the strength to endure the near future,I just don't know, I just don't know (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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1776,
You've stated your fears so plain for all to see unlike so many here who've resorted to ridicule and reparte (self included). I can see that something worries you by the sincerity of your words. It is hard for me to deny something like that, or to belittle it. I'm sorry you feel this way, 1776, and if I could I'd sit down with you in hopes that we could hear each others fears for this country, in the hope that we might help each other find something we can both agree on, even if it's only mutual respect.
And don't worry, this race isn't over, and if Bush wins, he'll have a Republican Senate & House.
<S>
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1776,
I HIGHLY resent your implications about Liberals.
Sir, if we were face to face, I would call you out on that.
YES, Al Gore thinks that members of the military are only worth 3/5s of a non military person. Thats why he wants to raise military spending by more than Bush. Thats why he wants to give raises to military personel.
You idiotic, gullible, Unamerican paranoid.
You beleive the crap that comes out of Talk Radio, don't you?
Sisu
-Karnak
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heheeeee, struck a nerve there, didn't I,Comrad (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Well, the ranks of our military will keep shrinking no matter who wins.
What a shame (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Liberals have won the day!!! Hail liberals!!!
Liberals have won the War!!! Hail liberals!!!
The majority of Americans have spoken (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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You beleive the crap that comes out of Talk Radio, don't you?
Sisu
-Karnak
I sure as heck don't believe anything that comes out of Gores mouth. How many times does someone have to lie to you before you see that person as what he is, a paid professional liar.
Eagler
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1776,
Sorry about flying off the handle at you. There are a lot of deep feelings involved in these things and I don't think you know how insulting that statement was to me. I think you should probably take a step back and then talk to some Liberals. You really don't seem to understand our positions and the reasons we have for them.
One other thing, why are you hailing Liberals? Bush is going to be the 43rd President of the United States.
Sisu
-Karnak
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Comrade Karnak, look at the vote totals!!!
The left has won, Bush being Pres will make no difference now. There is no mandate!!
No one is going to be able to govern!!! Gore or Bush!! The markets may be the biggest winner at this point<gridlock>!!!
We continue down the slope towards policies that have failed time after time in history!!! We Americans have abandoned our heritage. We are no longer unique in history but have become yet another nation that shined and faltered.
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Originally posted by Karnak:
1776,
YES, Al Gore thinks that members of the military are only worth 3/5s of a non military person. Thats why he wants to raise military spending by more than Bush. Thats why he wants to give raises to military personel.
Yes, of course he does, after he cuts down the size of the military even more, making my job even harder to do, with less people. i seriously doubt that even after his "Pay raises" that my income would catch up to the inflation rate. Ever been in the persian gulf off the coast of Iraq/Iran for 6 months?
Hamish!
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Why am I seeing people who are normally pretty much on an even keel going "critical mass" over this election?
Take a deep breath and look at it from a distance....'
First, our government works. This close election has not resulted in people having to riot to get the "leader" out of office.
The vote totals will be resolved peaceably and the work of the nation will proceed.
Whether Bush or Gore wins this, we still have a good system of checks and balances that will keep the pendulum from swinging too far one way or the other in one term.
Second, be thankful that we can resolve our differences this way, non-violently.
Third, this country, contrary to the hysterical reporting by the media, is not at the eve of destruction. The US is still one of the most prosperous countries in the world and while there are challenges before us there are none from which we need shrink.
Relax. The sun will come up tomorrow. Get up...watch the sun rise while eating a really good orange. Smell the grass, listen to the birds awaken.
Life is good.
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Comrade, toad, the vote totals show that a majority of Americans are willing to offer up their freedoms on bended knee for the illusion of safety and security!! There is much to be alarmed about in the USA right now!!! We will crumble from within if we don't stop our current path and reverse direction. We now glady elect and reelect people we know to be corrupt. When is enough, enough???!!?!?!?
I have no answers but I see what is happening and am very alarmed!!
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Originally posted by 1776:
Comrade, toad, the vote totals show that a majority of Americans are willing to offer up their freedoms on bended knee for the illusion of safety and security
You know what Ben Franklin said about that right? They deserve neither, and it's true. What are the Republicans to do when they've been lied about by the mainstream media for what 30+ years now?
I realy want to know where the hell the other 150 million Americans were yesterday? Pathetic losers who deserve no freedom if you ask me, they don't even use their most fundamental right. It's a shame because the system does work.
SIGH........................
Udie
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So what would you have me do?
Give up?
Sorry, that's not my nature. (http://smilecwm.tripod.com/net6/smsmile2.gif)
Become totally depressed because my fellow citizens in the most urban and populous states are more than willing to give up freedoms that were purchased with the blood of their ancestors for the illusion of security provided by an overly-intrusive government?
Sorry, that's not my nature. (http://smilecwm.tripod.com/net6/nuts.gif)
These are the best of times. I am in good health, I am still on the right side of the grass, I am 1/2 way thru a new airplane school and when it has ended I will go pheasant hunting with my sons and my Labs.
In the doldrums of winter I will seek out politicians that share my views. I will work to get them elected. In four years I will do what I can to revive the spirit of independence in my fellow citizens. I will encourage personal responsibility and personal accountability.
I will hope. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
"The citizen of the United States is taught from the earliest infancy to rely upon his own exertions in order to resist the evils and the difficulties of life; he looks upon social [political] authority with an eye of mistrust and anxiety, and he only claims its assistance when he is quite unable to shift without it."
Alexis Charles Henri Clerel de Tocqueville, DEMOCRACY
IN AMERICA (1835).
There lies our challenge. Can we Americans reawaken to our heritage?
Or shall we become spineless wards of a mindless bureacracy?
Don't give up.
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 11-08-2000).]
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America is evolving. The capitalist theme of this country is beginning to be questioned for its true value wrt the people, and it is found wanting. Capitalism, once the proud signature of this nation has become gnarled, and self-absorbed. It no longer cares for the people, or the community, only the profit margin. Some may say that it never cared, but in the past the government held the power to curb it. Now, this is no longer true because Capitalism employs government itself, doling out financial charities to syncophantic political parties in return for preferential treatment, and 'business as usual'. This can no longer continue if we are to remain a free nation. We can no longer allow Capitalism to rule our lives, govern our politicians. And the only entity that can hope to combat it is the Federal Government. Our government must be answerable to the people, not Capitalism. More needs to be done to curb the inevitable greed that has infested American big business. We are the richest nation in the world yet most of us never see this wealth, so what good is it to us, the people? None. Government must hold the reins of power in this country, because it is the only thing the people have left to trust in. Not big business. Not politicians.
I'm not talking about Communism. That is too harsh, and violence is not a means to an ends. I'm not even talking pure Socialism. But I am talking of a merging of Socialism and Democracy where the government oversees the process, and protects the people. To continue on our present road of Capitalism will only result in our demise as a nation, as it inevitably devours itself from greed and hunger. Maybe not today, but in two to three decades.
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Originally posted by Eagler:
I sure as heck don't believe anything that comes out of Gores mouth. How many times does someone have to lie to you before you see that person as what he is, a paid professional liar.
Eagler
Sorry Eagler, but politicians aren't professional liars?
At least this is the image I have of them.
When they are good ones. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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I sure as heck don't believe anything that comes out of Gores mouth. How many times does someone have to lie to you before you see that person as what he is, a paid professional liar.
So... You say that half of the voting population of USA is unable to choose honest candidate over pathological lier? Is that what you are saying? If Gore is so great liar, why Bush didn't get a landslide victory?
Either voters are really dumb and cannot choose a clearly better candidate? Or voters really want to vote pathological liar?
Or both candidates are equal liars, thus they got almost equal number of votes? How about this scenario?
What really intrigues me is that many americans see everything in black and white without anything between. One candidate is saint and other is antichrist.
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jochen
Kids today! Why can't they fetishize Fascist military hardware like normal people?
Ladysmith wants you forthwith to come to her relief
Burn your briefs you leave for France tonight
Carefully cut the straps of the booby-traps and set the captives free
But don't shoot 'til you see her big blue eyes
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Quote:
<snip>
"step back and then talk to some Liberals. You really don't seem to understand our positions and the reasons we have for them."
LOL!!! The only belief Liberals have is that they have no beliefs.
Leonid:
You assume that Government is "good" and "protects" people and Capitalism is "bad" and only "hurts" people. That assumption is utterly ridiculous and illogical. An assumption only a communist like Nader, or a spineless mollusk like Phil Donohue, could spew.
It seems that 50% of the US population has been reduced to the "Bread and Circuses" mentality of the ancient Romans. And we know how that turned out.
Cabby
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Sorry, cabby, nothing ridiculous or illogical about it, but you are free to feel that way.
I have no idea what you're talking about when you equate the dole of late republican/imperial Rome to what's happening here today. Americans are the hardest working people in the world, yet have very little to show for it, except a wad of cash. Having that wad of cash seems real cool at first, because it leaves you with 'choices', but after awhile those choices end up requiring a larger wad of money than you've got. Thus, no money, no choices, no guarantees. When considering what many other industrialized nations provide their citizens, Americans end up with the cheapest package of the lot. If this is what it means to have 'choices', then Capitalism isn't making it anymore.
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Got a bad feeling about the recount here in Florida. Less than 950 votes diff. - and shrinking.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Eagler
[This message has been edited by Eagler (edited 11-09-2000).]
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Cabby the Rabid Reactionary:
"... communist like Nader..."
equates to:
"Go get ya gun, momma, he looks different to us normal folks."
I agree with you Leonid, almost totally.
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Dowding:
You are a moron.
Leonid:
"Americans are the hardest working people in the world, yet have very little to show for it, except a wad of cash."
That statement is absurd. Incredibly so.
Cabby
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Originally posted by leonid:
Americans are the hardest working people in the world, yet have very little to show for it, except a wad of cash. Having that wad of cash seems real cool at first, because it leaves you with 'choices', but after awhile those choices end up requiring a larger wad of money than you've got. Thus, no money, no choices, no guarantees.
So having money causes you to loose money? Does that actually make sense to you?
What should our work be rewarded with? Food? Water? A hefty pat on the back and a "well done"
You must set yourself free leonid. Send all your cash to me and it will oppress you no longer.
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Dowding:
You are a moron.
lol. Great comeback.
Are sure you don't want to call me a communist?
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 11-09-2000).]
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Dowding, if i called you a communist, then the "moron" part would only be redundant.
Cabby
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"All communists are and were morons." - Cabby
Read a book on Stalin sometime (or perhaps that would be 'un-american'?) and see if you hold the same opinion.
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human nature prevents communism from ever working on a large scale. it is simply not feasable for a country-sized unit.
on a smaller level tho (say a few hundred people) it works out rather nicely - see the israeli communal farms for example.
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Quote:
""All communists are and were morons." - Cabby"
Didn't say that. Though i don't necessarily disagree with it. But your "quote" of me confirms my initial evaluation of you.
Stalin??? A murderous moron. I never confuse cunning/brute force with intelligence. I suppose though, you admire the "brilliant" Saddam Hussein too.
Cabby
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Cabby,
You are a hypocrite. You talk of liberal embellishments, yet your own language is full of nothing but rhetoric, and snide remarks.
I think it's time for you to go grease your weapons now. They're getting rusty.
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Originally posted by Regurge:
So having money causes you to loose money? Does that actually make sense to you?
What should our work be rewarded with? Food? Water? A hefty pat on the back and a "well done"
Your post reminds me of the stories of Soviet citizens who when told of western supermarkets, and shopping malls would just shake their heads, and smile, saying, "Western propaganda." In fact, there are quite a few things that we could be getting in return for our work, and our taxes. It's just that strong political forces have labeled such programs as 'communist-socialist activities'. And we all know there's no better way to get a 'patriotic' American's undies in a bunch, than to utter the word, "Red." Thank big business, and that parochial idiot, McCarthy.
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Cabby - that 'quote' was accurrate by inference from your comment. You even agree with it.
You clearly are only open to 'politically correct' judgements that paint a black and white picture of the world. Again, I advise you to read about Stalin some more, or failing that, a complete history of the USSR from pre-revolution to its fall. Stalin was a political genius and an excellent judge of character. He was as evil as perhaps anybody could be, but he certainly wasn't a moron. He had to be intelligent to be able to hold on to absolute power for so long (especially since he repeatedly eliminated his closest henchmen, while still avoiding a coup d'etat). I certainly don't admire him and it amuses me greatly that you are unable to deviate from the McCarthy view of socialism.
To people like you socialism will always equate to communism, and you will never be able to see that make such a comment is as indefensible as equating conservatism to fascism.
Saddam Hussein is a tyrant, and should be treated as such. But the embargo on humanitarian aid to Iraq by the US and UK is nothing short of a disgrace.
Zigrat - communism certainly couldn't work on a grand scale, and I wouldn't advocate it as an alternative to modern democracy. But that doesn't mean some of the ideas that it developed should be cast aside. And socialism should never be confused with communism.
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 11-10-2000).]
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Originally posted by leonid:
In fact, there are quite a few things that we could be getting in return for our work, and our taxes.
Such as.....what? I would really like to know.
[This message has been edited by Regurge (edited 11-10-2000).]
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I second Regurge....exactly what are you talking about leonid? You spout all of this jibberish about "other rewards" that our country can give us, but its all very vague. Care to expand on this wonderful world that you envision? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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More precisely, what can government provide using our taxes that private industry could not provide with better quality for less money?
quote:
"In fact, there are quite a few things that we could be getting in return for our work, and our taxes."
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Originally posted by 1776:
Yeager, don't forget liberals think all military personal only count as 3/5s of a person (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Bull.
4 years in USN and liberal here.
Hamish - i'm a liberal and managed to be in Persian Gulf for 6 months twice in my time.
Why does everyone assume that military is full of rednecks and good old boys ?
if you were to get a racial statistic of any service you would find more blacks and hispanics there then in normal population, and you should remember that those groups ususally vote for democrats.
Saying that everyone in military is a gun totting repulican is like saying that everyone who lives south of Washington DC is a illiterate redneck.
Leonid - isn't it hilarious that people like us who've seen the evils of communism have to defend it ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
cracks me up everytime...
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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
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Fd-Ski:
There are lots of "hills to die on", but defending Communism is not one i would choose. I guess because you are a Liberal, and therefore "broad-minded" and "inclusive", you defend Facism with the same fervor as you defend Communism?? After all i, an ignorant hillbilly, have trouble distinguishing between the two.
Cabby
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Originally posted by cabby:
Fd-Ski:
There are lots of "hills to die on", but defending Communism is not one i would choose. I guess because you are a Liberal, and therefore "broad-minded" and "inclusive", you defend Facism with the same fervor as you defend Communism?? After all i, an ignorant hillbilly, have trouble distinguishing between the two.
Cabby
You see Cabby, difference between out approaches is the fact that you assume something is evil ( communism ) without any direct first head knowledge of it while i try to be open minded to things.
Communism, while it didn't work out, is a noble idea. The good and equality for all, the very essence of what idealistic communist tried to create was noble in character.
Execusion sucked, i agree, but it doesn't mean that everyone who is willing to see past the propagana is some sort of evil communist trying to undermind the world order.
I lived in communism. I educated me, it took care of me. I came from poor family, and after living in capitalizm, i think i was lucky to be brought up in communism, being poor and all.
But, it's not a perfect system. It doesn't work, but with advences in economics, maybe one day it could.
Maybe one day we would be able to give up the money chasing so pounded into our heads by other money chasers and enjoy our stay on the planet. Work because of passion - not salary. Spend time with families, not work overtime for promotion. Maybe one day the backstabbing "i got to have a nicer car then you" attitudes will end. Maybe ?
Would it be so awful ? Really, would it ?
Why are you so afraid of chance and improvement ?
Why does opening up to new and better things scare you so badly ?
Do you really think we should barricade outselves in our ranches with rifles and bibles in case that "liberal government" tries to take them away from us ?
We've met twice by now. I enjoyed your company and i know you for a nice and pleasant fellow you are, but your "us/them" mentality is still a mistery to me Cabby.
We're all the same, you know. Rich and poor, sick and healthy. Black and while. Straight and gay. We're all humans and with notable exception of few sick f___s, most of us wish others well.
Sorry... too many beers for one evening (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
You all can go back to fighting over Gore and evil Hilary now (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
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Im dumbfounded.
Yeager
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I seem to remember a book called "Animal Farm".
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Originally posted by Regurge:
Such as.....what? I would really like to know.
[This message has been edited by Regurge (edited 11-10-2000).]
Wow, you guys really are in the dark. Okay, how about guaranteed housing for all, guaranteed health care, and a guaranteed pension plan that is viable. This isn't pipe dreaming either, it's a fact in quite a few other industrialized nations. So what if it's socialistic??? Who gives a rat's ass? If it improves the citizenry as a whole, it can only help.
In America, if you make enough money, or are extremely aggressive with your investments (again, need a fair chunk of cash), such an arrangement as housing, health care, and pension are all within easy reach. But if you don't make enough money, then your choices dwindle rapidly. Thus, having viable choices in America is directly proportional to how much money you have. We are certainly free to try and make more money, but in the business world nothing is guaranteed. This should not be the way to provide for a nation's citizenry. Every citizen should be guaranteed housing, health care, and pension. At least in my book.
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Every citizen should be guaranteed housing, health care, and pension. At least in my book.
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Are we talking salary caps here Leonid?
Yeager (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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You'd have to get rid of trivial non-productive capitalist wastes of time like Aces High, of course.
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Thanks leo, i understand (and respect) specifics like that much more than flowery, abiguous sentances.
Actually I'd like to see a new thread on this. I got some questions for u, but i gotta sleep now.
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Originally posted by leonid:
Wow, you guys really are in the dark. Okay, how about guaranteed housing for all, guaranteed health care, and a guaranteed pension plan that is viable. This isn't pipe dreaming either, it's a fact in quite a few other industrialized nations. So what if it's socialistic??? Who gives a rat's ass? If it improves the citizenry as a whole, it can only help.
In America, if you make enough money, or are extremely aggressive with your investments (again, need a fair chunk of cash), such an arrangement as housing, health care, and pension are all within easy reach. But if you don't make enough money, then your choices dwindle rapidly. Thus, having viable choices in America is directly proportional to how much money you have. We are certainly free to try and make more money, but in the business world nothing is guaranteed. This should not be the way to provide for a nation's citizenry. Every citizen should be guaranteed housing, health care, and pension. At least in my book.
Sounds Great!!!! I want a mansion with a 3 car garage, 3 limos for my personal use. The best healthcare money can buy!!!
A pension of $14-$20k/week (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Now why would I work hard and be productive if I know that is at the end of my worklife??? You forgot to factor in human nature!!!!!
Human nature is the reason Socialism has failed, is failing, and will always fail!!
[This message has been edited by 1776 (edited 11-11-2000).]
[This message has been edited by 1776 (edited 11-11-2000).]
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Originally posted by 1776:
I seem to remember a book called "Animal Farm".
and hearing about it from one of your friends who can read makes you an expert on the subject ?
<g,d,r>
I hate to tell you but Animal Farm is a cruique of communism in its soviet implementation, believe it or not the author was as socialist as you could find...
Next step for you to sound eloqent now is to say that "some animals are more equal then the others". Go ahead... It's ok. But for a long run conversation i suggest you go buy cliffnotes.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
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rofl (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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downright scarey when communism is defended. Hell lets have them implant chips so they can insure we only do the correct and honorable thing. My god, if ya like communism so much head to china. I cannot believe its being proposed as being viable.
From my cold dead hands.
but hey, go here and read some biased, hehe, facts on gore's history. http://www.algore-2000.org/ (http://www.algore-2000.org/)
now this communism talk makes sense.
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Dnil---Skyhawk until I get Dnil back :)
Maj. 900th Bloody Jaguars
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer (http://www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer)
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Yes Dnil, you got us pegged. We're all out to get you.
To everyone - we've been found out. Plot to destroy Dnil and his princilaps have been put off until 2004 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
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Excellent points well made, Fd-ski. <S!>
Dnil - go back to your black and white world, or perhaps re-read the posts here. No-one is defending communism as a viable alternative to democracy - they are pointing out the ideals are commendable and that *some* of the concepts might make the world a better place.
Cabby - care to reply to my last post? I'd like to hear what you say - or perhaps you prefer not to defend your opinions when challenged?
Human nature is the reason Socialism has failed, is failing, and will always fail!!
Open your eyes a little 1776. The UK has a moderate socialist government, yet we have the lowest unemployment for 30 years (and more than 18 of those were under a conservative government). We have the fourth largest economy in the world (which isn't bad for a country with 55 million inhabitants). Sure, it isn't perfect, but it hardly fits your image of a a democratic socialist state.
Or perhaps you are mistaking socialism for communism? This seems to be a common mistake with a lot of people on this BB (and maybe in America as a whole?). It seems to me people can't be bothered to look at the facts and admit not everything is as black and white as you might want it to be. Communism and socialism are as different as conservatism is from facism - there are only superficial similarities.
Fd-ski is right about Animal Farm and makes a good point about Soviet communism. Stalin twisted the revolution into a form which suited him, and it remained with the USSR until its end.
I'll say it again, Communism might not work on a grand scale, but that doesn't mean *some* of the ideas developed therein aren't valuable to a democracy.
And then there's Marxism...
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 11-11-2000).]
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Please,I am willing to listen to you with open eyes,as you have determined I am totally ignorant,and who knows maybe I am!!. Now tell me how the healthcare is administered in the UK? It is social healthcare,isn't it??
I eagerly await your words of wisdom with a worm on my tongue(baited breathe, hehee)
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actually promoting socialism is a threat to me.
Maybe in your world your government can pick the right job for me but not in mine, at least not without a fight. I believe in personal responsibilty, not having big brother tell me what my responsibilty is.
Sure in a perfect world it all sounds rosey, no one fights we have all our needs and wants met, but its not gonna happen, ever. We are animals, plain and simple. I know liberals hate hearing that but its true, we hunt, we gather, we make babies.
One thing is for certain, I will not support unmotivated lazy people, no way no how. You make your bed, you have to lie in it.
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Dnil---Skyhawk until I get Dnil back :)
Maj. 900th Bloody Jaguars
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer (http://www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer)
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Nice that you ask. Yes, healthcare is administered in the form of the 'National Health Service' (founded 50 years ago or so), which is paid for through income tax. Anyone can use it and it covers major operations as well as minor treatment. Access to emergency care is not dependant on medical insurance of any kind (I've heard that in the States you have to sign forms before you get treatment - true?).
Although it has its weaknesses and its critics (like any system has), I believe it preferable to a completely privatised service.
BTW, I don't profess to being a fountain of knowledge.
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Maybe in your world your government can pick the right job for me but not in mine, at least not without a fight. I believe in personal responsibilty, not having big brother tell me what my responsibilty is.
Who said anything about governments deciding what job you have? I agree, I don't believe in having a 'big brother' watching over me.
Yet again, you confuse socialism for communism (I'm getting tired of writing that sentence).
actually promoting socialism is a threat to me.
Seems to me you don't want to hear anything that might contradict your blinkered and restrictive view of the world. You talk about individualism yet you want everyone to think the same.
I've got news for you - that ain't going to happen. Not ever.
In fact, 'over my dead body'.
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actually you do, you assume im the blind and unknowing one. maybe its not me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
help me understand your point, explain to me your perfect society.
hows is promoting individualism wanting everyone to think my way? its i do my thing you do yours, but dont step on my way and i wont step on yours. seems pretty unblinkered to me.
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Dnil---Skyhawk until I get Dnil back (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Maj. 900th Bloody Jaguars
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer (http://www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer)
[This message has been edited by Dnil (edited 11-11-2000).]
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Hmmm, seems to me your answer is very short.
How much in taxes do you have to pay??
There is no private healthcare in the UK??
[This message has been edited by 1776 (edited 11-11-2000).]
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If you are assured of housing, healthcare, a job, and a pension, what is there to strive for? The "American Dream" is alive and well. With hard work, you can reap large rewards. Hard work in a Communist system gets you the same thing your lazy co-worker gets.
Yes, you English folk, Socialism works for some people. But any system that restricts my choices is a system I don't want.
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
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Sorry if my answer is short - I don't have much time at the moment.
I'm not sure how much we pay. I do know that most people agree with paying extra in income tax if it means healthcare available to all. Private healthcare does exist, but I would say most people can't afford it (although alot of jobs these days come with a private healthcare package).
Like I've said before, its not a perfect system and it does have its shortcomings. The same goes for our style of government.
Raubvogel - who said anything abut being assured a job and a pension? The unemplyment benefit is barely adequate to live on (something like £40 a week - so that's about $60 I guess) and the same goes for a pension. The idea is that you can live on them, but your standard of living would be low - there is therefore an incentive to succeed in a job and in life in general. But if things go wrong (and they do to the best of us), then at least you've got something to fall back on, so you can start again.
There is 'council' housing for all - but again there is always an incentive to buy your house.
Well, that's the theory. It ain't perfect, but its preferable to many other systems. I don't mind paying a little extra to have good schools and hospitals, or to give a little extra to pensioners who fought in the War (which is alot of them).
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So your healthcare system is 2 tiered: one for the peasants and one for the rich.
Hmmmmm, and prefered jobs will provide private healthcare.
So if I were a doctor why would I work in the government provided healthcare area? Is it possible that the best doctors are in the private sector??
If any of the above is true I will stick to our system of insurance and the fact that I can seek out the best care possible. I don't want to stand in line and possibly be assigned to a doctor who is just in it for the fact he is unable to meet the demands of the market place!! What incentive do the public healthcare people have?? They get paid if they cure ya or kill ya!!
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Quote: [In regard to taxes]
<snip>
"I'm not sure how much we pay."
LOL!!! Liberals, Socialists, Communists, whatever you want to call 'em, basic economics is not their strong suit. Or understanding Human Nature either.
Now, i know you have to be a moron to be a Democrat, but to actually want to live under communism, i dunno, it's mind-boggling.......
Cabby
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Dowding....the first part of my post refers to Communism...the 2nd part to Socialism. I'll take neither thank you.
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
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Cabby - you are unwilling to be anything other than personal. I get the impression that if anyone holds a contrary view to your own, they must be a communist. You come across as a deeply paranoid individual; you must walk down the street fearing you're going to be part of a 'Red' revolution at any second.
Liberals, Socialists, Communists, whatever you want to call 'em...
By the same token: Nazis, republicans, conservatives, whatever you want to call them...
At least 1776 is willing to have a debate.
I don't know the exact figures because I'm on the move at the moment.
The same doctors do private and NHS work. With private work the patient pays, with NHS work the service pays. The problem is waiting times - some are greater than others.
I had to have a battery of tests done to try to diagnose epilepsy (I'm applying for officer training in the RAF). Privately, I could have had done in a week, but it would have cost me about £2000. With the NHS, I had them done within a month.
Keep your system - I'll keep mine. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Dowding:
You make a mistake in assuming i'm "debating". I'm not. I tell it like it is whether you, or anyone else, likes it or not. I'm not here to convince you my postion is the right one.
I couldn't care less what you think about what i post. I just like to show you folks the read-out on my Liberal Bulls*** Meter from time to time.
I'm very familiar with the smear-tactics used by foaming-at-the-mouth Leftists the world over. I enjoy giving you wacko socialists a taste of your own medicine.
And no, i'm not afraid of any "Red" menace. I'm way too well-armed to fear such a threat<g>.
Cabby
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You mean I may have to wait to have some basic tests done in the UK or pay an outragious price?? What a choise (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Free markets(although it is under great presure in the US because of government intervention) would produce low costs and "service".
When I was 10 and living in a small town in Minnesota the doctor came to your house(anybody besides myself remember house-calls?) I think my parents had to pay $10 per call. The hospital in the town was controled by the city too if memeory serves me. We have come along ways in such a short time!!! But can you call it progress???
[This message has been edited by 1776 (edited 11-12-2000).]
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Cabby - "foaming at the mouth", "wacko" - pretty much describes your comment on Nader or your lumping together of Communists, Socialists and liberals. Monumental ignorance, if you ask me. Anybody, who has read your posts knows your not here to debate - I don't think you know how.
1776 - the tests weren't 'basic' by any means. I had a CT head scan (which I think is done using an NMR machine) - this is an expensive test no matter where you live. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I also had an EEG to test whether I had a brain...err... to test the electrical pathways in my brain. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
The only 'cheap' examination was a blood test.
We have house calls in this country if the patient is too ill to be moved, or is elderly, by on call GP's (General Practitioners). But most people would wait until the morning and visit the GP's surgery.
Like I said before, it ain't perfect, but it works for the most part.
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 11-13-2000).]
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those tests are kinda basic here. Had all of those before, all scheduled within a day or whenever i wanted to do them and they were paid for by my insurance that i had through my workplace.
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Dnil---Skyhawk until I get Dnil back :)
Maj. 900th Bloody Jaguars
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer (http://www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer)