Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: rv6 on July 12, 2006, 05:53:22 AM
-
Hi all..
A question that bothered me for a while now, and just saw it happen yesterday.
Had a great 1 v 1 engagement with a guy I consider to be a "Top-Gun" in the game. Was lucky enough to stay out of his gunsite to the bitter end.
He was in an F4-C .. and he was GOOD! He walked that damn thing around a slow stall turn like a VW in a parking lot.
In the end, we were both literally cockpit to cockpit, nose-up, stall horn blaring, wings rattling, with no collision. (sheer luck).
I could clearly see his flaps full down.. (I can understand why you'd do that)..
But, also saw HIS LANDING GEAR DOWN??
I know that this is a technique (must be for this particular old vet to be using it),, but what in heck does dropping your gear in close ACM do for the better??
I mean, when I try it, it just puts additional drag on the plane, kills e bigtime, and makes manuevering harder.. (I fly real planes too, and gear retracted is the way to go in my humble opinion)..
Thanks for any enlightenment ~
RV6
-
heh, that is an old trick to employ for deliberate rapid deceleration, usually for forcing an enemy to overshoot, or to avoid yourself overshooting if your behind. The Corsair (F4u) has the ability to drop wheels at about 290 or so - at least in AH, im sure there is historic validity in this too?
-
Corsairs use landing gear as an airbrake. You can toss it out up to around 350 mph (been a while) without it departing your plane. Add some flaps and she'll turn on a dime.
Dump gear in a spitty at 350 and it will depart your plane before it gets all the way down. :) Same for just about every other plane in AH2....
Hope this helps.
-
I mean, when I try it, it just puts additional drag on the plane, kills e bigtime
That's the purpose, dumping E.
However, once the fight turns into a tall contest, the gears are supposed to increase stall speed as they produce pure drag and no lift. You should retract the gears when you've reached the stall.
In theory at least. I haven't tested it so I don't know if that is what actually happens in the game. The way some people use it you'd mistake the F4U to be a fixed gear plane. I'd also expect some severe heavy nose effect when they are out at high speeds, but it's not like that from what I remember.
-
I'm sure there is historic validity in this too?
I sincerely doubt there's any 'historic validity' in dumping gears for combat purposes.
Ofcourse, I could be wrong - Who knows? Maybe out of all those thousands of fights by thousands of pilots in the war such a thing actually did happen. But I personally believe it to be another one of those 'technically possible' stuff that practically never happens in real life.
Landing gears are one of the most important mechanism onboard a plane. Would any pilot ever risk being in a such a hectic fight, requiring all the 'technical possibilities' to be used to gain advantage during combat? What if the landing gears are destroyed? Damaged? Jammed? Unevenly deployed?
In AH, ditching and belly landing is a breeze, but all of those so frequent fatal accidents involving vintage war planes in many airshows proves that in real life any kind of emergency landing is dangerous to the max. I doubt that any real life combat pilot would ever risk deploying landing gears in such a manner.
-
They werent used as an air brake because someone said "lets try it" and it worked.
They were designed as an air brake. But, I do think that the pilot had far more to worry about in a close air combat situation (IRL) and far more to do than worry about raising and lowering the gear. To get that slow against most japanese fighters back then, wasnt a good idea. I did have a film of them doing ground attack runs with gear down. Which I bleive is what they were mostly used for... Ground attack.
-
Originally posted by Kweassa
I sincerely doubt there's any 'historic validity' in dumping gears for combat purposes.
Of course, I could be wrong - Who knows?
Heh. You are. At least once, that is.
If you have a copy of Caldwell's "JG26", look up Klaus Mietusch in the index, and go to Beyer's account of shooting him down. Mietusch was the commander of the 3d Gruppe of JG26 (the one that flew 109s), claimed to have 75 kills at the time of his death, and was in a 1v1 against Beyer's P-51 when Beyer dropped his gear to avoid the overshoot - just as in AH2.
Would copy it here, but my copy is at home.
- oldman
-
Just for the record.
Anyone fighting against me has my absolute and complete permission to use this tactic.
I wish more would. I could triple the amount of kills I get.:D
-
Originally posted by Morpheus
They werent used as an air brake because someone said "lets try it" and it worked.
They were designed as an air brake. But, I do think that the pilot had far more to worry about in a close air combat situation (IRL) and far more to do than worry about raising and lowering the gear. To get that slow against most japanese fighters back then, wasnt a good idea. I did have a film of them doing ground attack runs with gear down. Which I bleive is what they were mostly used for... Ground attack.
Saw a F4U-1 training film, i think at Zeno's warbirds. In addition to the "push this then pull that" part of the orientation, the film emphasized "never get it slow."
I figure that alone shows how early and how hard the need for speed was emphasized for USN and USMC aviators.
Comes down to the same thing we see for the 190 series -- in AH planes that were MEANT for energy attcks from unforgiving advantage end up stall fighting on the AH deck. Kinda makes the "how they did it in real life" part less applicable
-
The landing gear on hog can be deployed up to 404 mph. Anything over that will cause failure. It should only be used for slowing down rapidly or in barrel rolls, not so substained turns. With landing gear up in flat turn, u can out turn most spits and even come close to the hurri with full flaps and wep on. U will be doing like 80-100 mph.
-
I've been playing around with this whole landing gear thing for awhile now, trying to master it, but basically just dumping it in all sorts of situations and getting shot down numerous times in the process (best way to learn what will and will not work).
It can certainly come in handy.
There's really nothing like going into a steep, fast dive against a plane that probably thinks you're the average Corsair that's going to try and run away, only to drop that gear, pull a hard breaking turn up, and roll around onto them. If your persuer isn't expecting this they're in trouble. And in the MA, you really wouldn't expect this if you didn't know who you were fighting at first... Kinda like taking advantage of the fact that people expect you to be timid.
On the same token when merging with a Spit or anything really that you'd expect to turn hard at the merge, if you drop it during your merge you can often gain a good angle on it and suprise them them.
Using this tactic does require a fairly good ability to handle the plane at very low speeds, however, as you are basically giving your opponent the E advantage right at the merge, and if they notice, they're going to rope you. However, given the speed discrepancies at the merge (you should be much faster) you can often manage to get just slower enough that you can out or equal merge him without giving him TOO much of an E advantage, and you should still be able to hold with him if he takes it vertical after that, assuming you have a decent grasp of how to control that bird well slow.
Anyway, that's just my thoughts a month or so into trying to learn this new trick.
The Corsair really does amaze me though. It's one of the few planes that really can go into a 1v1 against any other fighter whether you're higher, lower, or co-alt and have many, many options to win. It's hard to say that about many planes.
-
Rv6...Check out this thread (in Help & Training forum) for some films on dropping gear in Corsair.
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=181670
-
Originally posted by Kweassa
I sincerely doubt there's any 'historic validity' in dumping gears for combat purposes.
Ofcourse, I could be wrong - Who knows? Maybe out of all those thousands of fights by thousands of pilots in the war such a thing actually did happen. But I personally believe it to be another one of those 'technically possible' stuff that practically never happens in real life.
Landing gears are one of the most important mechanism onboard a plane. Would any pilot ever risk being in a such a hectic fight, requiring all the 'technical possibilities' to be used to gain advantage during combat? What if the landing gears are destroyed? Damaged? Jammed? Unevenly deployed?
In AH, ditching and belly landing is a breeze, but all of those so frequent fatal accidents involving vintage war planes in many airshows proves that in real life any kind of emergency landing is dangerous to the max. I doubt that any real life combat pilot would ever risk deploying landing gears in such a manner.
Well, in reality the F4u didn't dump the landing gears as an airbrake. They dumped the landing gear doors. The gears stayed in. In AH the dive brake and gears are situated in on the same key and does the same thing in order to make it easier.
Having them dumped in a close combat wouldn't really give you anything IMO, just take away more E and reduce the turning ability.
It does come in handy when slowing down though.
-
there is a acont of a beaufighter using this in 1941 t keep behind a enemy bomber it a stalking. but that was to stop him ovr shooting
-
Dumping the gear gets your flaps out faster & thus you can gain angles.(or avoid nme bullets)..And when u get that last notch of flaps out in F4u,you can out-turn pretty much anything.
Airbrakes on Corsair acts like a wep-boost for flaps.
-
Originally posted by Morpheus
I did have a film of them doing ground attack runs with gear down. Which I bleive is what they were mostly used for... Ground attack.
Seen those or similar films too. What was the purpose of dropping the gear in that situation anyway? For a more precise strike on the position?
-
Many times I shoot a hog down when I'm on his six and see his gear deployed. It always makes me chuckle. Gear need only be deployed to force an overshoot in a dive. To be honest, I never put gear down while fighting in a corsair. Any slowing down can be easily done with rudder(hog has one of the biggest) and flaps and quite frankly you'll need the E to keep him in gun range when he passes or for the fight on the second pass. The only time that I ever see it being done wisely, is when your at the top of the stalll with the guy and you drop out first, then drop gear and stay out of his guns until he passes by. This would be more historically accurate as well being that the gear was intended to be used as DIVE breaks(remember the hog was a very heavy plane and it could gain very high dive speeds). Blukitty is one of the best at using this properly. Also it was mentioned that it works well in rolling scissors but I would say no to that to as you need your E in rolling scissors and you just use the angles to stay out of his guns.
-
It works.
-
One quick word of warning though, if you're gonna mess around with the gear, remember you messed around with the gear. Can't tell you how many times I look down and see three green dots when I didn't want them. Either hit the button three times by accident or just forgot, it'll get you in trouble quick :D
-
pfffffffffffffffff ....
On the actual plane, the landing gear handle had a dive brake position in addition to the extended and retracted positions. The dive brake position would extend the main gear but not the tailwheel because the tailwheel doors were not rated for high speeds. In Aces High, the separate dive brake position is not used. You only need to extend your landing gear as normal. The high speeds will not damage the tailwheel doors.
from http://www.hitechcreations.com/ahhelp/models/f4u1d.html
But I don't know if this source is really credible ! :D
-
Actually, I've dropped gear as high as 450 to almost 500mph with no problems. Kicking the gear out also seems to improve the Hog's instantaneous turn, and has been noted helps the Corsair get her flaps out earlier.
As to why they dropped their doors on ground attacks:
Think of it as the same reason they installed dive breaks on the SBD: To keep the dive speed down and make the plane more responsive in an attack run.
-
One thing I found interesting was that the F6F was capable of using it's gear as a dive brake also. Haven't checked in-game to see what speeds you can deploy it though.
-
Originally posted by Kweassa
I sincerely doubt there's any 'historic validity' in dumping gears for combat purposes.
Actually, there is. The F4U's gear were designed to be used as airbrakes as I understand it.
I also know that the Mosquito's airbrake frill was abandoned after tests showed that dropping the landing gear had the same effect. I have heard of them jamming when dropped at over 300mph on occasion too.
-
Originally posted by Karnak
Actually, there is. The F4U's gear were designed to be used as airbrakes as I understand it.
I also know that the Mosquito's airbrake frill was abandoned after tests showed that dropping the landing gear had the same effect. I have heard of them jamming when dropped at over 300mph on occasion too.
Like I said before... the landing gear doors were used as airbrakes and activated by another switch. The gears didn't actually extend when the switch/lever was triggered.
This is modelled on the same key in AH though.
-
Originally posted by Wilbus
Like I said before... the landing gear doors were used as airbrakes and activated by another switch. The gears didn't actually extend when the switch/lever was triggered.
This is modelled on the same key in AH though.
Every time a thread like this comes up someone says that the two main gear did in fact drop but the tail wheel didn't.
I don't know if that's true, or not. But that's what seems to be a common thought.
-
Let's keep this simple. Since we aren't playing the game with only one life and then we're done, folks are going to do things that a real WW2 combat pilot wouldn't do because they know they're not really dying and they'll get another brand new plane if they die.
So you get in a spot why not try everything you can think of to get the edge? If you mess up, there isn't any realy penalty for it so who cares? You can bet that the real pilots would have taken a lot more risks and tried a lot more 'tricks' if they knew there was no death penalty back then if they messed up :)
-
there were 2 sets of controls -
One dropped the front gears / dive brake - without the rear landing gear.
The other dropped all of the gears as normal.
here you go if ya need proof :) BTW - later on - watch the stalls...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1056703518162002454&q=f4u
-
Actually, there is. The F4U's gear were designed to be used as airbrakes as I understand it.
I also know that the Mosquito's airbrake frill was abandoned after tests showed that dropping the landing gear had the same effect. I have heard of them jamming when dropped at over 300mph on occasion too.
For direct combat purposes?
IMO, logically the so-called "airbrakes" itself being associated with the landing gear pretty much clearly demonstrates its purposes as a feature for carrier-based aircraft which one of its primary concerns would be lowering the difficulty of carrier landings. An airbrake would be extremely useful for aircraft trying to land at a limited space in the middle of the ocean.
From what I understand keeping it "simple" and "direct" was the most important thing in WW2 aerial combat. HOTAS - hands on throttle and stick, and anything else that diverts the pilot's attention should be considered a deadweight, despite the fact that some expert pilots did make use of such features to pull off rare and occasional 'stunts'. Fiddling with flaps, mixture control, RPM levers, trim tabs, etc etc...
Since some of the guys pointed out such use of landing gears (and gear doors) did happen in combat, I must ask about the frequency of such incidents. Can it be considered frequent enough to really say that such 'airbrake' features are a truly valid part of combat maneuvering?
-
Originally posted by Vudak
There's really nothing like going into a steep, fast dive against a plane that probably thinks you're the average Corsair that's going to try and run away, only to drop that gear, pull a hard breaking turn up, and roll around onto them. If your persuer isn't expecting this they're in trouble. And in the MA, you really wouldn't expect this if you didn't know who you were fighting at first...
Vudak, what you said is EXACTLY what happened! I had Alt, I had e, I had cannons, whoopee for me..
Until I dove in on that hapless F4U.. He snapped upward like a snake and shot at me from every angle! Every turn, was on a dime, his guns were 1 degree off me ALL THE TIME! No matter how tight I turned, or how cleaverly I stall looped, or whatever.. (the gear down, in my face, just slayed me however.. (literally!).
I never fly an F4.. but the moral of all these very specific answers (and thank you all for them, especially the link from SirLoin) is, IMHO..
Never, EVER underestimate the F4U below you, and run like hell from the F4U above you.
Thanks again,
RV6
-
I still wonder why you get no nose down pull when gears are out at high speed.
You add a lot of drag low under the center of gravity, and I'd expect that the disturbance of airflow around the wing will not improve lift. This would make perfect sense if you are dive bombing, but pulling out the gears at 300 mph and pull 6 G.... ?
And when u get that last notch of flaps out in F4u,you can out-turn pretty much anything.
I have no data but that can't be right, especially in a plane notorious for difficult handeling when slow.
-
I've defently used the gear in the F4u1d to cause an overshoot. P-51 High 6 OC, i dive in to get a bit of speed, he dives, i pull gear pop rudder and barrel roll. come out P51 is 200 infront :) death.
Worship
-
Kweassa,
The RAF's concern with the Mosquito was that it would not be able to reduce speed as it pulled in behind another aircraft due to its very streamlined design. The frill airbrake was intended to allow it to dump speed so as to not overshoot its intended target.
I think this is likely a Night Fighter concern as you would want to get in position and stay there long enough to identify the aircraft in front of you before shooting it and in poor light conditions that could be time consuming.
-
I think its safe to say if a real ww2 vet came in here and flew against some in here he could easily lose if he didnt push the limits, beyond what he would do in a real F4U. Just like if we were to jump in a real F4u and fly against him we would lose. Its a game..we have fun. Thats enough for me.
-
IIRC the RAF experimented with an airbrake for the spitfire to deal with complaints of overshoots from pilots.
-
Interesting Vudak and Waffle, thanks :)
As for Filth... how DARE you have fun?!
-
And don't get it all of you have me on ignore or what ???
-
Have read it before Straffo and read it now again :)
Now I will put you back on my ignore list :p
-
HEHEH, The F4 is the trickiest plane in the game :D
She can do things, no real plane or pilot would ever do. The gear trick is awsome at high speed to slow down and I've out turned a few in a last ditch effort in the slow stall fight. Remember this is a GAME not real life with external factors effecting your plane.
In a slow tight turn, drop the gear for a sec, reverse the fht and then raise them once you've cut the corner for a snap shot. Takes alot of practice, but once you've mastered it, have no fear vs any plane. You can't get a long 1v1 in ma too often to really perfect this, but when AvA has the Pac map up come over and fly the f4.
I'll be glad to 1v1 you :aok
-
Originally posted by Wilbus
Have read it before Straffo and read it now again :)
Now I will put you back on my ignore list :p
:cry :cry :cry :cry :cry
-
LOL Straffo :D
Nohooo, you'd never be on my ignore list my French little friend :)
-
Originally posted by Wilbus
Well, in reality the F4u didn't dump the landing gears as an airbrake. They dumped the landing gear doors. The gears stayed in. In AH the dive brake and gears are situated in on the same key and does the same thing in order to make it easier.
Having them dumped in a close combat wouldn't really give you anything IMO, just take away more E and reduce the turning ability.
It does come in handy when slowing down though.
Sorry Wilbus 'ol buddy, but the above is incorrect. F4Us deployed the main gear (not just the doors) as a dive brake, while the tail wheel remained up. There is a "Dive Brake" lever in the cockpit that lowers the main mounts only. F4Us used this to enable them to dive almost vertically on a bomb run. Using the gear as a dive brake, you were limited to 300 mph for lowering and must retract them before 400 mph. There was substantial leeway in these figures as pilots often deployed the Dive Brake (gear) at speeds close to 400 mph. You do, however, risk doing damage to the extension cylinder when deploying at high speeds.
My regards,
Widewing
-
but what in heck does dropping your gear in close ACM do for the better??
Maybe he was showin off his new goodyear radial's.........
-
Thanks Widewing, I was proven wrong before actually and you clearified it even better now :)
-
Originally posted by rv6
But, also saw HIS LANDING GEAR DOWN??
I know that this is a technique (must be for this particular old vet to be using it),, but what in heck does dropping your gear in close ACM do for the better??
I mean, when I try it, it just puts additional drag on the plane, kills e bigtime, and makes manuevering harder.. (I fly real planes too, and gear retracted is the way to go in my humble opinion)..
Thanks for any enlightenment ~
RV6
I've used this trick on very rare occasions to try to force an overshoot but it's a last ditch effort to salvage the fight when I've already done everything else wrong :D . Put the gear out, slow down enough to see your oppo gaining and then get the wheels back in the wells and go vertical (as much as you can). I use it only when you're going to die anyway. FWIW
Cheers,
asw
-
Originally posted by Kweassa
I sincerely doubt there's any 'historic validity' in dumping gears for combat purposes.
Ofcourse, I could be wrong - Who knows?
It is a perfect way to slow up one's aircraft during dive bombing. Several vets I know who flew the Hog discussed doing this to avoid compression in a dive.
-
Originally posted by Widewing
Sorry Wilbus 'ol buddy, but the above is incorrect. F4Us deployed the main gear (not just the doors) as a dive brake, while the tail wheel remained up. There is a "Dive Brake" lever in the cockpit that lowers the main mounts only. F4Us used this to enable them to dive almost vertically on a bomb run. Using the gear as a dive brake, you were limited to 300 mph for lowering and must retract them before 400 mph. There was substantial leeway in these figures as pilots often deployed the Dive Brake (gear) at speeds close to 400 mph. You do, however, risk doing damage to the extension cylinder when deploying at high speeds.
My regards,
Widewing
Widewing,
By the -4 series, (have seen field mods on -1d's) the installation of an unloader valve was prominent in the "dive brake feature". This enabled the dropping of the gear at any speeds to act as a speed brake, but at higher speeds, they never fully extend as the pressures required would cause damage. As the speed decreased, the gear would further extend.
-
ok, grab you a dueling partner and go to the DA, both of you get in the same type of F4U series all be it -1 -1C -1D -4, both of you agree on a merge alt and commence to fighting..........now on the 1st fight, 1 of you when getting slow lower your gear.......when the other sees that you have lowered or started lowering your gear, he should rollout and extend............by the time he gets his gear back in, you will have gained 1K+ distance on him and can reset and merge again.........
now switch it up and you let him lower gear next flight. When you see him start lowering gear, you roll away and extend, as you are extending and while he is bringing his gear back in, you rev low G turn, holding your speed, you can then remerge taking him vertical, and make em flounder / send him to the Tower......
the Gear produces so much drag, that , by the time the other guy raises it again you can extend to 1K + and hit 300 IAS and fight on your terms bleeding his speed........
<-----would much rather use 4th notch of flaps or all out before ever lowering Gear, 1 can lower all flaps and raise them faster than you could lower &/or raise the gear............but every once and awhile especially when going over the top inverted, lowering the Gear will drop that nose straight down like a BOULDER.......
YMMV
-
Originally posted by Widewing
Sorry Wilbus 'ol buddy, but the above is incorrect. F4Us deployed the main gear (not just the doors) as a dive brake, while the tail wheel remained up. There is a "Dive Brake" lever in the cockpit that lowers the main mounts only. F4Us used this to enable them to dive almost vertically on a bomb run. Using the gear as a dive brake, you were limited to 300 mph for lowering and must retract them before 400 mph. There was substantial leeway in these figures as pilots often deployed the Dive Brake (gear) at speeds close to 400 mph. You do, however, risk doing damage to the extension cylinder when deploying at high speeds.
Ive read this in books written by guys that flew in the war and they wrote that this was standard practice dropping gear so the speed wouldnt build up in a dive. I also read they did not dive straight down but that steeper dives caused speed problems too so they used tape or paint marks on the canopy to show them the best angle. They would line the canopy line up with the horizon as best they could when they attacked.
-
I had a great 1on1 fight with an F4 last night, he used this tactic, and it gave him about 4 more turns before I lit him up like a roman candle on the 4th of july.
His response was to lift a spit16 & grab a friend in an la7 to try to avenge his death in a 2on1- the 2 being in EZ mode planes & me in my same ole yakU. I drug them to my base- and tried to fight the 2 of them in ack but it wasnt going to work as I was almost outta fuel, I had to belly land into a hangar to save my skin. Part luck - part skill---- all fun:D
uKnoMe
-
It is a perfect way to slow up one's aircraft during dive bombing. Several vets I know who flew the Hog discussed doing this to avoid compression in a dive.
I don't argue that they'd not have used the landing gears in such manner. It's perfectly understandable during divebomb runs - many divebombers had airbrakes and under specific procedures they'd set up their attack runs and extend dive flaps.
The one I'm skeptical about is like rv6's original title - "Dropping landing gears in close combat"
I'm wondering about the grand average here, not just seasoned pilots, not just rookies.
For every tale of grand combat, such as some spectacular fights like between Malan vs Moelders, there is also a tale of the norms, where pilots forget they had flaps down, they pushed the wrong button, forgot the procedures required, etc etc.. The reports from one leader remarks on his group's P-38s as 'not suitable for combat for average pilots' for the reason that it is much too complicated most pilots, and specifically mentions not every pilot can be skilled enough, and plenty of similar reports for many planes, all indicating that keeping the controlling procedures simple and the combat doctrine straight-forward should always be more preferred than trying to teach each pilot some exotic moves.
Again, since some folks were nice enough to post actual events that happened I do not doubt some pilots did use 'airbrake' methods during combat - although my take on it is, like Karnak speculated, such cases were limited to either against a mostly a stationary target(crawling up behind a target in night fighters) or a perfectly set-up BnZ run (where the target is unaware of impending doom).
However, during 'close combat'? Raising gears up and down, while fiddling with flaps up and down, at the same time changing throttle up and down?
His eyes gazing at the target, the gunsight, what's around him, and the individual control guages/indicators/levers/buttons for such mechanisms at the same time?
The target breaks hard at 3G, the attacker tries to follow him, pulling a 3G turn with both hands and then cutting throttle to slow down, letting go of the stick with his left hand, and then locating the flap levers/buttons, engage combat flaps, sees the impending overshoot, his left hand fiddling with first the landing gear doors, then the main landing gear themselves, oops, the speed dropping too fast, have to retract/reset all of what he did previously, raise flaps up, raise landing gears, close landing gear doors, and at the same time maneuver the plane with just his right hand to the stick, trying to follow the jinking enemy.... and then he has to repeat everything again if he sees it likely he might overshoot again, all during a slow-speed scissors fight?
How many left hands does the pilot have?
-
So far as I could tell, there was no intention or expectation that lowering the gear on the Mossie would make it more manuverable. The only expectation was that it would act as an airbrake to help prevent overshoots.
So on that account, no, I don't think it was used in close, manuvering fights.
-
Originally posted by Kweassa
I However, during 'close combat'? Raising gears up and down, while fiddling with flaps up and down, at the same time changing throttle up and down?
How many left hands does the pilot have?
For the F4Us, the throttle lever, prop lever, mixture, dive brake lever and flap controls were within inches of each other. Very little hand motion was required to operate any of them.
On the F6Fs, the above controls were even more closely grouped, with cooler door and cowl flap controls in the same area.
A smart pilot would have memorized the locations of these various controls and could find each of them blindfolded. Thus, they would never have to look inside the cockpit during a close-in fight.
In contrast, a P-38 had its flap lever on the right side of the cockpit....
My regards,
Widewing
-
I will not attest to the veracity of the claim but I read once that the F4U's used gull wings in order to have short landing gear. The designers insisted on short gear for two reasons; one, that they could be strong enough for carrier duty but also so they could be used as air-brakes. The only way to have usually short and strong gear AND a huge propellor was with gull-wings.
-
Sounds like he was trying to land
-
Originally posted by Oldman731
Would copy it here, but my copy is at home.
OK, so now I am home, and had the time to copy the account here. Not only is it relevant for the dropped-gear issue, but I think we've all had fights like this. AH does a pretty good job of simulating real life.
- oldman
From JG 26 - Top Guns of the Luftwaffe, by Donald L. Caldwell (Ivy Books, New York 1991), ISBN 0-8041-1050-6 (First Ballentine Edition, June 1993), at page 276:
[The following occurred on the afternoon of September 17, 1944 - the first day of Operation Market-Garden]:
The Third Gruppe [of JG26] also fought a battle with Mustangs, with ruinous consequences for itself. In mid-afternoon, Major Mietusch assembled about fifteen Bf 109s of his scattered command and headed for the landing zones, climbing all the way. The weather had taken a turn for the worse, and there was a continuous layer of thin cloud at 15,000 feet. The Germans climbed through it, and then, while above the Dutch-German border, Mietusch spotted a squadron of P-51s below them. He radioed, “Otter Mietusch, I am attacking!” and dove through the cloud. His first burst of fire destroyed the Number 4 plane of the trailing cover flight. Oblt. Schild hit the Number 2 Mustang’s drop tank, and it dove away trailing a solid sheet of flame. The events of the next few minutes are best stated in the words of the leader of that P-51 flight, Lt. William Beyer of the 361st Fighter Group’s 376th Squadron:
* * *
I was the flight leader at the tail end of the squadron. We had flown back and forth between checkpoints for a couple of hours. My wingmen apparently got tired of looking around for enemy aircraft. Only by the grace of God did I happen to look behind us at that particular moment, because in no more than a couple of seconds the enemy would have shot the whole flight down.
I saw about fifteen German fighters closing fast with all their guns firing. I immediately broke 180 degrees and called out the enemy attack. My Number 4 man went down in flames, and my wingman got hit and spun out. I headed straight back into the German fighters and went through the whole group, just about in the center of them. We were separated by only a few feet...
I immediately made another 180-degree turn, picked out one of them, and started to chase it. The rest of the fighters zoomed back up into the clouds and disappeared. We made many violent high-G maneuvers with wide open throttle. When I started to close and fire, I noticed that his plane seemed to have stopped in the air. I had to decide whether to shoot and run, or to try to stop my plane. I cut throttle, lowered flaps, and dropped my wheels - I still kept closing. I had to fishtail and do flat weaves to stay behind him. This maneuver was repeated three times, and on one occasion I almost cut his tail off, we were so close...
Then we started into steep dives. The last one was at around 1,000 feet with flaps down. This last maneuver was deadly and nerve-racking. He went straight down toward the ground, hoping I couldn’t pull out. If I pulled out early, he could have come in behind me, so I stayed with him. If we had had our wheels down when we pulled out, we would have been on the ground.
It was after this pullout that I finally was able to get my sights lined up and fire at him. I must have hit him with the first burst, because he kept turning and went into the ground and broke up. Knowing the caliber of this German pilot, I am sure that if I had taken the time to get off some shots when he was slowing down he could have possibly shot me down or made a getaway. My other combat victories were not nearly as spectacular as this one, and it is with this in mind that I can recall it so vividly.
* * *
Lt Beyer’s victim was Klaus Mietusch. Mietusch was one of the most fascinating individuals in the Geschwader’s history. He was a career officer, had joined the Geschwader in 1938, and was its senior pilot in length of service when he died at age twenty-five. His early combat career was marked by a seemingly endless series of failures and frustrations. A member of the successful 7th Staffel under Muencheberg, he did not come into his own until he succeeded to the command and led it on detached assignment in Russia in 1943. He was the opposite of the typical extroverted, self-confident fighter pilot. He compensated for what he believed to be his lack of ability by an act of will. According to Priller, Mietusch’s combat motto was, “Bore in, until the enemy is as large as a barn door in your sights.” Again quoting Priller, duty as Mietusch’s wingman was an “unforgettable experience.” Mietusch was shot down ten times and was wounded at least four times. He was said never to have turned down a mission, and he had logged an incredible 452 combat sorties at the time of his death. His seventy-two victories brought the award of the Oak Leaves to his Knights’s Cross, two months after his death.
-
Edbert I dont know where you get your information but its transmemberfied somehow. Im hoping Widewing will tell you the gull wings were designed to reduce drag at the point at which they were mounted to the fuselage and that the landing gear is what it is because of the horsepower used at the front end of it all and the weight of the plane. I dont know that the landing gear was designed from the outset to be dive brakes and right now I think it just happened that they excelled at it. Id like to hear from someone that knows for sure.
-
The intent of the gull wings was to accomodate the giant propeller, which would have forced the Corsair's landing gear to be too long to be practical for carrier ops. Vought designed the gull wings as a work-around to be able to provide ground clearance for the prop without having to lengthen the landing gear struts.
Drag reduction was an unintended bonus.
-
Originally posted by Saxman
The intent of the gull wings was to accomodate the giant propeller, which would have forced the Corsair's landing gear to be too long to be practical for carrier ops. Vought designed the gull wings as a work-around to be able to provide ground clearance for the prop without having to lengthen the landing gear struts.
Drag reduction was an unintended bonus.
This is my understanding as well.
- oldman
-
Originally posted by Edbert1
The only way to have usually short and strong gear AND a huge propellor was with gull-wings.
Originally posted by Chalenge
Edbert I dont know where you get your information but its transmemberfied somehow.
Originally posted by Saxman
Vought designed the gull wings as a work-around to be able to provide ground clearance for the prop without having to lengthen the landing gear struts.
Originally posted by Oldman731
This is my understanding as well.
Thanks for the challenge ;)
-
Here's a photo of an F4U-1A at Peleliu. It has just come off of a bomb run. Note that the main gear is down, but the tail wheel is up. This is the configuration when the dive brakes are selected.
(http://home.att.net/~c.c.jordan/F4U-DiveBrakes.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
-
Question for you Widewing:
Captured this screen from a film I took today. As a setup, I was chasing a Hurricane at high speed and he pulled up suddenly. I dropped gear to cut my turn and we both went vertical:
(http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g247/Ambaryerno/HogHurri1.png)
I KNOW I should have had him, but my best shot when I had the most response from my plane came as he vanished into the sun and I couldn't see (NARROWLY missed him, at that).
I had E on him as I was closing fairly quickly so he hung on his prop while I was still coming up on him. I (obviously) forgot to tuck the gear again. What I noticed, though, is that the plane was far more stable in this situation than I either expected OR experienced in similar situations before (not the first kill I've lost chasing a baddie vertical into the sun and losing him).
Could the extended gear act to help stabilize the plane and keep her from rolling or snapping into a spin?
-
[OT]
I remember an anecdote fom somewhere about F4Us persuing what I want to say were Betty bombers. They were so high up that the guns froze (the pilot forgot to fire a burst every once in a while after spotting the Bettys, so the guns eventually froze). The Betty guns had frozen too, so the F4U pilots pulled in close and sawed chunks off with the props.
No idea if that's true or not. Sounds kinda off to me, but cool nonetheless.
[/OT]
-
Originally posted by Saxman
I dropped gear to cut my turn
to slow down is a better phrase to use! gear are used to slow the plane down and land on, they really have no mechanical assistance in turning the plane, that would be rudder,ailerons, and elevators! hee hee :aok
-
Originally posted by SkyRock
to slow down is a better phrase to use! gear are used to slow the plane down and land on, they really have no mechanical assistance in turning the plane, that would be rudder,ailerons, and elevators! hee hee :aok
This is true, landing gear do not assist in turning. But, what they do accomplish is to reduce your speed rapidly to that where the F4U can turn its smallest radius. Thus, the impression is created is that the gear assisted in reducing turn radius.
What pilots quickly discover is that when going vertical, lowering the gear swallows up much of your E, which in turn kills the plane's ability to zoom climb. This can be an advantage or a disadvantage depending upon the situation at hand. It can prevent an overshoot, or in the worst case leave you hanging helpless.
Using the gear as an airbrake/dive brake requires great care and in most instances is detrimental if not immediately pulled back up.
My regards,
Widewing
-
I know that Sky, that wasn't the point of my post. :p
Anyway, could the gear also have stabilized the plane in some way? Certainly in this case it WAS an advantage as it kept me from overshooting, and I felt like the plane was easier to control than I've experienced before in this situation.
-
Originally posted by Saxman
I know that Sky, that wasn't the point of my post. :p
Anyway, could the gear also have stabilized the plane in some way? Certainly in this case it WAS an advantage as it kept me from overshooting, and I felt like the plane was easier to control than I've experienced before in this situation.
Usually I find that the less E, the less stabilization. But let me get to what I really want to say about this, the only time I ever see dropping gear as being advantagous is when your in a dive and someone is on your 6 diving with you, then u can drop gear and stay out of their bullets until they pass. Now to drop gear so that you don't overshoot can be an option, but then picking a better merge is recomended. As far as dropping gear when a plane is coming in on your 6, I believe it to be a disadvantage to do so! If you know how to manipulate the hog to avoid being shot, then you will want all the E you can to follow this guy and kill him. The hog has a huge rudder so use it to your advantage. learning the angles that the hog is capable of is much more of a help in turn fighting than dropping gear and hoping for the best! also, here's a little helpful hint in fighting spits: lets say a spit is above you and you know hes going to come in on you, simply nose down until you reach 400 letting the spit come right on in, wait until he is about 800 out then make a flat turn to vert roll and you will be right on his 6. at speeds above 400 mph the hog outturns the spit easily as compression limits the spits ability dramatically. :aok
-
I\'d need to see a diagram of some of these maneuvers, or a film, as I have trouble visualizing sometimes.
-
Originally posted by Saxman
I\'d need to see a diagram of some of these maneuvers, or a film, as I have trouble visualizing sometimes.
Sax, just yell at me on 200 next time you see me on! I fly under SmashR!
-
Originally posted by SkyRock
Usually I find that the less E, the less stabilization. But let me get to what I really want to say about this, the only time I ever see dropping gear as being advantagous is when your in a dive and someone is on your 6 diving with you, then u can drop gear and stay out of their bullets until they pass. Now to drop gear so that you don't overshoot can be an option, but then picking a better merge is recomended. As far as dropping gear when a plane is coming in on your 6, I believe it to be a disadvantage to do so! If you know how to manipulate the hog to avoid being shot, then you will want all the E you can to follow this guy and kill him. The hog has a huge rudder so use it to your advantage. learning the angles that the hog is capable of is much more of a help in turn fighting than dropping gear and hoping for the best! :aok
yep, yep.........my thoughts exactly.......
I also find is better stability when slow if you are trimmed out so you have to have slight pull to keep nose up ( manually trim to say 300 mph/IAS ) and leave it there, if you use ( I should say if I use ) combat Trim and am slow, with elev. trimmed all up it is more unstable then the manual trim I mentioned.......
but
YMMV..........;)
-
Originally posted by TequilaChaser
yep, yep.........my thoughts exactly.......
I also find is better stability when slow if you are trimmed out so you have to have slight pull to keep nose up ( manually trim to say 300 mph/IAS ) and leave it there, if you use ( I should say if I use ) combat Trim and am slow, with elev. trimmed all up it is more unstable then the manual trim I mentioned.......
but
YMMV..........;)
yup trim nose down a bit and then pull against it to shoot! Good advice TC I think I learned that one from Nomak!