Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: x0847Marine on July 14, 2006, 02:33:43 AM
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I got a parking ticket in Pasadena & decided to fight it using my law enforcement experience... but how I won is common sense.
When the 'officer' arrives to court for some citations like speeding or metered parking, s/he must bring some evidence of calibration / service for the specific meter you were parked at.
I argued the parking meter cheated me by 5 min, the parking attendant brought the service records for a different meter and I won.
...these service records are great to expose how inaccurate some meters are as well, even if s/hed brought the right one I could still win.
For speeding tickets it should say either "paced" or "radar" on the citation.
Paced means the officer followed you and used his speed-o to determine your speed. Police cars go through AAA sponsored calibration, and they are almost never accurate. The officer must produce this calibration in court, if he says you were 10MPH over but his calibration is off +/- 5, you have a great chance of winning, or paying a hell of a lot less. If he forgets or brings calibration for a unit he was not driving that day... you win.
A few times I showed up to court before noticing the unit I had been driving was off by up to 15 MPH, I let the court clerk know and she dismissed the charges..
Police cars take a beating, units get wrecked, break and are otherwise abused almost 24/7.. the speed-o-meters are no exception and sometimes after a crash cars dont get calibrated right away, or at all.
Radar means, duh, radar.. these too must be calibrated, and they are almost always off by a few MPH. I used to calibrate my radar using a tuning fork, if I didn't... the Coke machine clocked in at 40-43MPH. Make the officer prove his radar isn't screwed.
You can also have your car calibrated, I think AAA will do it, if its way off you can turn a speeding ticket, moving violation, into a "fix it" or equipment violation; think insurance costs.
For parking tickets, look up the violation and read it. If the law says a sign must be posted every 100 feet and the signs are gone, unreadable or blocked by tree growth... you win. If the paint on the curb / sign is faded or otherwise not clear, you can win.
You'll need clear pictures to make your case.
Some state laws even define how big the font on a sign must be, most private parties buy signs at hardware stores that may, or may not be legal in your state.... a legal no parking sign in Colorado might not be in Cali
The "system" is using the letter of the law against you, its only fair you can stick the same pissant regulations up their brown eye.
Last but vital, the 1st question the traffic judge usually asks the officer is what you said when the officer contacted you... the officers copy of the ticket has space where s/he can leave notes you will never see, I used to jot down what the drivers said here... if the officer says you admitted to speeding, ask to see the officers copy... it might just say you were an A hole or jerk with nothing about speeding.
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You're threads are not only entertaining, but educational, thanks Marine!
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Oh my, that was very entertaining. I love hearing free legal advice from the experts.
Bet you cant get out of one of my tickets.:rofl
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well, i got a ticket 4 months ago day and ripped t up. heard nothing since.:aok
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I once got a ticket for parking in a handicaped spot, had my datestamp film camera with me and took some shots showing the blue stripes covered with snow, the sign was missing, judge took one look and dismissed.
shamus
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
well, i got a ticket 4 months ago day and ripped t up. heard nothing since.:aok
Careful because the next time you get pulled over you may find your suspended. Happened to my wife a few years back before she changed her address. She was in an accident and they mailed a ticket to her parents house but they never gave her the mail and the next time she was pulled over they almost took her to jail. The officer let her go because she was crying her eyes out and he believed her that she didn't know about it.
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Originally posted by parker00
Careful because the next time you get pulled over you may find your suspended. Happened to my wife a few years back before she changed her address. She was in an accident and they mailed a ticket to her parents house but they never gave her the mail and the next time she was pulled over they almost took her to jail. The officer let her go because she was crying her eyes out and he believed her that she didn't know about it.
They do that in California too, but... although your license is suspended there's a "service code" entered into the JDIC (the "system"). They indicate things like the letter was mailed & returned... usually, if the officer even knows about service codes, you wont be arrested and may not lose your car if the service code indicates it was sent via regular snail mail and you claim not to know.
A sharp trooper will then fill out a DMV notice of service form, meaning from that instant on.. your good to go to jail & lose the car.
Traffic laws, and the system in place to rush us through like cattle, is a draconian farce.... but you'll never get a true politician to care because chicken-spackle fines amount to millions in revenue. The City of Beverly Hills is one of the worst, or best... BH generates almost as much parking fine $$ as the City of Los Angeles, LA is about 20x bigger. They prey on visitors with confusing local parking laws, meters everywhere with a small army of meter maids at the ready.
It used to be that a higher level of training was required to issue a citation, Ca law says who can write a ticket and who cant... at least reserve police officer training was needed. Now cities (like West Hollywood) can contract to private companies who put people through an 8 hr class and send them out with a cite machine that spits out tickets with the push of a few buttons.
Plus you must pay the fine in advance of fighting it, guess who collects interest on your $$?.. a city can techinaclly lose every contested parking citation and still earn some change.
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Originally posted by x0847Marine
...Plus you must pay the fine in advance of fighting it, guess who collects interest on your $$?.. a city can techinaclly lose every contested parking citation and still earn some change.
And that's the crappy thing about it. It's not about public safety, it's a revenue stream.
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Well....former MARINE here.....I would respond to you in detail...however I'm out issuing summonses to idots like you....
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I was involved in a 1 1/2 hour, 120+ mph chase, but when my tires were shredded and they finally pitted me, between intermittant profanity and violence I told the officer in a very polite tone that he was mistaken and was really chasing somebody else.
I think I will use some of your advice and see if I can get a decent ruling.
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I got a speeding ticket last month but there was no doubt that I was guilty.
I hopped onto the freeway on my cycle and was greeted by clear lanes and decided to, um, accelerate quickly. At about 85 I backed off and cruised a bit between 85-90 before slowing to 75, this in a 65 zone.
Behind me in the distance I see another bike getting closer fast, expecting to see a ricer fly past me I was suprised when my next glance in my mirriors I saw the flashing red and blue lights.
I pulled over on a wide area alongside a deceleration lane for an offramp. The cop was at first rather curt and he explained to me that he was going to pull over a car that was behind me after I got on the freeway but I got his attention because I was going faster and I suppose that my debaffeled pipes may have helped in getting his attention.
To get to the point, the cop was actually a cool guy, we talked motorcycles, laying them down and fun roads in the area and other related stuff while he was writing me up. He did give me a break by writing me up for 75mph but I know that I was going faster.
I was guilty, no doubt about it, I took the ticket with a smile and shook the officers hand and mentioned a group ride the next weekend, he showed up for it on a beautiful ruby red Road King.
The ticket worked as designed, I watch my speed closer and my mirriors for cops less now.
Maybe beating a ticket when you know you were guilty blows some peoples skirts up but for me, when a person is guilty and gets caught he/she should own up to their deeds and take the punishment perscribed by law. Trying to wiggle out on technicality's when you're guilty as sin seems to be what a lot of people on this board rile against defense lawers for. It isn't for me but I guess YMMV.
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Flatbar,
Nice comments there. I commend you for being a responsible adult.
Before anyone tries to use the "strategy" that x0847Marine has posted about you might want to consider something. What he has posted, if true, may work in his particular jurisdiction. Don't count on it to work anywhere else.
Requiring "calibration records" is by far not universal. What he neglected to indicate also was the calibration tests the manufacturer of the unit provides for field use and the procedure the court has already approved for determineing accuracy of the unit including how often the unit's calibration must be checked. I did the calibtation check before and after each stop the radar was used for.
As to the comment regarding error in the radar units. :rofl If he used a unit that gave ANY error to write a ticket he screwed up. A coke machine is hardly an approved calibration test device for anything, even a thermometer. Writing without having tested calibration, not calibrating as users are not authorized to calibrate it only test it, places the Officer in the position of writing an estimated only ticket (not necessarily a bad ticket) instead of a radar clocked ticket. The individual Officer also has (at least in my home state) to be trained and certified to use the radar / laser device for speed clocking. Also they had to be trained in visual speed estimation and have a consistent ability to do visual speed estimation before using the device to confirm a speeding violation. Plus or minus 3 MPH is not uncommon visually as long as you remain in practice. Radar doesn't give you the speed, it only confirms it, again in my home state.
Cars do have speedometers that can be and are frequently off. Ours came from the factory with a fancy sticker saying they were calibrated at manufacture. We checked them against radar and found up to 7 or more MPH error in 35 to 45 mph range. Thank you very much for the speedo's Ford. After that they were checked by the shops at each maintenance interval and a calibrated correction sticker placed on the speedo to show the amount of error. Records of this were also not required for court.
Lastly most traffic violations are known as non intentional violations. In other words you do not have to prove intent, only that the violation occured. In regards to speeding if your speedometer is in error it's up to you the driver to be aware of it and drive accordingly. If you exceed the limit by 1 MPH you are still in violation. If you exceed it by 15 and the speedometer of the clocking vehicle was off by 5 mph you are still speeding. The error of the clocking vehicle is not a get out of jail free situation on a ticket in many jurisdictions. Then again, some judges will decide things one way one day and the opposite on others. It can be the luck of the draw at times.
I saw one judge that admitted in open court that if a woman had to get a babysitter just to appear in court he felt they had a valid defense and would dismiss the violation, even before they testified. Go figure.
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See Rule #4, #5
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
I was involved in a 1 1/2 hour, 120+ mph chase, but when my tires were shredded and they finally pitted me, between intermittant profanity and violence I told the officer in a very polite tone that he was mistaken and was really chasing somebody else.
I think I will use some of your advice and see if I can get a decent ruling.
:lol Good luck, although I don't think you will need it.
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And that's the crappy thing about it. It's not about public safety, it's a revenue stream.
Not really Furious, it is about public safety. The only way to get someone to stop their bad driving is by getting into their wallet where it hurts those stupid people the most. If you dont want to pay fines and support the revenue system, then follow the simple rules.:aok
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But M36, my pedal just keeps going to the floor when I reach the speed limit, how in the world am I supposed to maintain the proper speed when the car doesn't automatically slow down for me?:confused:
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I'm reminded of a quote from 'Liar Liar' --> "Stop breaking the law, ***hole!"
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Originally posted by Maverick
Requiring "calibration records" is by far not universal. What he neglected to indicate also was the calibration tests the manufacturer of the unit provides for field use and the procedure the court has already approved for determineing accuracy of the unit including how often the unit's calibration must be checked. I did the calibtation check before and after each stop the radar was used for.
As to the comment regarding error in the radar units. :rofl If he used a unit that gave ANY error to write a ticket he screwed up. A coke machine is hardly an approved calibration test device for anything, even a thermometer. Writing without having tested calibration, not calibrating as users are not authorized to calibrate it only test it, places the Officer in the position of writing an estimated only ticket (not necessarily a bad ticket) instead of a radar clocked ticket. The individual Officer also has (at least in my home state) to be trained and certified to use the radar / laser device for speed clocking. Also they had to be trained in visual speed estimation and have a consistent ability to do visual speed estimation before using the device to confirm a speeding violation. Plus or minus 3 MPH is not uncommon visually as long as you remain in practice. Radar doesn't give you the speed, it only confirms it, again in my home state.
IIRC the older X band stuff required in an the field tuning fork test (k/ka definitely doesn't).
I got done wrongfully with laser once, I have an active laser jammer (ie not that passive bs rmr stuff) now, bel laserpro, front and rear heads. No more issues for me :D
Our cops have quotas now, not 'official' quota's, but they are rated on their ticket issueing performance so go figure. In NZ a good radar detector and laserjammer is well worth the investment.
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Texas residents take note. There is no legal speed limit in Texas. Posted speed limits are only a suggestion. Ask a Texas lawyer for details.
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just out run them (http://dukesofhazzard.warnerbros.com/)
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last ticket I got was running a "red light" :rofl, apparently I am supposed to stop a 5 ton truck in less then 20 yards, while going 35 when the light turns yell-red. Seriously the light went yellow-red in about 1 sec, I saw it go yellow started to break and with less then 2 truck lengths Ifigured if I slammed the brakes on I might get stopped about the middle of the intersection. at the crosswalk I was still going about 25 while braking so I let up and go up to 35 and I am not even out of the intersection when this little motorcycle cop is already behind me sirens going. What was funny at the court he told the judge I was going 45 but he decided not to cite me for speeding as I blatently ran a red light that was almost 5 secs old. :mad:
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My dad owns a vending machine business. He had a coke machine at our cities police department headquarters. In case the machine ever jammed, he left a key for the machine at the front desk. The cops would go get the key and steal cokes out of the machine!
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
well, i got a ticket 4 months ago day and ripped t up. heard nothing since.:aok
hehe, I did that once. JUST ONCE:eek: . Wound up being hauled into the cooler 2 years later, for a night of misery. Pay it or it will bite you in the butt.
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Originally posted by nirvana
But M36, my pedal just keeps going to the floor when I reach the speed limit, how in the world am I supposed to maintain the proper speed when the car doesn't automatically slow down for me?:confused:
Some folks just aren't bright enough to operate machinery. Don't believe me? Go look in this silvered glass window here and I'll show you one.
:p :D
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A ticket can't be beat. Think about it:
1. Your going to miss time at work. In most cases this is more money than the ticket cost anyway. Unless you happen to be off. So we move to #2.
2. Your going to lose 4 to 8 hours out of your day in court waiting to be heard. (Unless your hire a liar so we move to #3.)
3. You hire a liar to handle your case. This is by far more money than the ticket cost. (Well at least your record is clear right?) Sorry but the charge stays there for the LEO to see on his laptop. It just says not convicted. Which to the LEO means you beat his partner’s ticket, so he's going to write you another one just to see your happy face in court again.
4. You do it just to make the LEO mad that you beat it. :furious Not so lucky he already knows he got you, because he knows #1,2, and 3. :rofl ;)
The best that you can do is avoid points on your OL. Just follow the rules and you wont have to waist your time, and money.
From the LEO himself,
PuckIt
:aok
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Originally posted by Maverick
Some folks just aren't bright enough to operate machinery. Don't believe me? Go look in this silvered glass window here and I'll show you one.
:p :D
I think I just got owned:(
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ahahahaha he said if you look in a mirror you would see someone who isn't very bright!!!!!111one ahahaha
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ahahahaha he said if you look in a mirror you would see someone who isn't very bright!!!!!111one ahahaha
OH Nirvana, my little squadie friend........should'nt have said anything about looking in the mirror.:furious
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
well, i got a ticket 4 months ago day and ripped t up. heard nothing since.:aok
You wouldn't want to do that if you're a foreign visitor to the US. I heard of one English guy who got a ticket but didn't pay for one reason or other. Next time he went to the States, he was stopped by Homeland security, clapped in irons, sent to the the county jail, made pay his fine and deported:( :O
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Originally posted by M36
Not really Furious, it is about public safety. The only way to get someone to stop their bad driving is by getting into their wallet where it hurts those stupid people the most. If you dont want to pay fines and support the revenue system, then follow the simple rules.:aok
Thats crap.
If you all by yourself on an open road doing 10 mph over the posted limit how is that bad driving?
Driving like a jerkoff ya, thats endangering. Going over the posted limit within reason is not unless your equipment is not up to the task.
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Originally posted by nirvana
I think I just got owned:(
Quick, look again and see if he's still there! :confused:
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It is a revenue stream in alot of places...take Hampton ,FL for instance..known as one of the nations worst speed traps. It's one of the only 3 in the US designated as speed trap. Hamton is actually a few miles off Highway 301, but the exyended a narrow corridor out to the highway just so they could put a patrol car out there.
http://www.iht.com/articles/1996/02/07/topics.t_6.php (http://www.iht.com/articles/1996/02/07/topics.t_6.php)
In the google map I've linked..you can just make out the gray area that is the town limit..notice how it shoots a wedge shape out from the actual town.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=hampton,fl+&ie=UTF8&om=1&ll=29.86346,-82.142072&spn=0.024898,0.054245 (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=hampton,fl+&ie=UTF8&om=1&ll=29.86346,-82.142072&spn=0.024898,0.054245)
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Originally posted by rpm
Texas residents take note. There is no legal speed limit in Texas. Posted speed limits are only a suggestion. Ask a Texas lawyer for details.
what about prima facia speeds?
black/white signs are the law.
yellow/black are cautionary.
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I don't have the details, but I know a lawyer that has used it 1000's of times and the procecutor never objects. Something about speed being reasonable for the road conditions.
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Originally posted by Pooh21
last ticket I got was running a "red light" :rofl, apparently I am supposed to stop a 5 ton truck in less then 20 yards, while going 35 when the light turns yell-red. Seriously the light went yellow-red in about 1 sec, I saw it go yellow started to break and with less then 2 truck lengths Ifigured if I slammed the brakes on I might get stopped about the middle of the intersection. at the crosswalk I was still going about 25 while braking so I let up and go up to 35 and I am not even out of the intersection when this little motorcycle cop is already behind me sirens going. What was funny at the court he told the judge I was going 45 but he decided not to cite me for speeding as I blatently ran a red light that was almost 5 secs old. :mad:
I wish the little pajama wearing SOB who flashed his opticon to make the light change pulls in front of a semi on his stupid little motorcycle thinking it can stop in 100ft and takes a trip around the driveshaft a few times soon
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Originally posted by rpm
I don't have the details, but I know a lawyer that has used it 1000's of times and the procecutor never objects. Something about speed being reasonable for the road conditions.
well, it dosent work around here.
i write close to 2,000 speeding tickets a year and the only time that i've seen resonable condions come in is when the road wont let you travel at the posted speed ie rain or ice.
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Originally posted by Pooh21
last ticket I got was running a "red light" :rofl, apparently I am supposed to stop a 5 ton truck in less then 20 yards, while going 35 when the light turns yell-red. Seriously the light went yellow-red in about 1 sec, I saw it go yellow started to break and with less then 2 truck lengths Ifigured if I slammed the brakes on I might get stopped about the middle of the intersection. at the crosswalk I was still going about 25 while braking so I let up and go up to 35 and I am not even out of the intersection when this little motorcycle cop is already behind me sirens going. What was funny at the court he told the judge I was going 45 but he decided not to cite me for speeding as I blatently ran a red light that was almost 5 secs old. :mad:
Can see how might be difficult to stop a 5ton truck in short distance. But what is amazing about your story is how you got that 5 ton truck to accelerate from 25 to 35 in less time/distance than an intersection. Either serious acceleration capablities of the truck or one big intersection.
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Originally posted by BigGun
Can see how might be difficult to stop a 5ton truck in short distance. But what is amazing about your story is how you got that 5 ton truck to accelerate from 25 to 35 in less time/distance than an intersection. Either serious acceleration capablities of the truck or one big intersection.
it was a pretty big intersection, on of those places where 2 four lane roads intersect I would say that intersection was about 80 yards give or take.
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Thats crap. If you all by yourself on an open road doing 10 mph over the posted limit how is that bad driving?
What part of speeding and following simple rules dont you understand?? Is it really that hard??
Next it will be 15+, or no wait a minute 20+ since there are no cars. But wait there is a blue car in front of me and a yellow going the other way. Maybe I should slow down to 18 over since 20 over take away two cars is 18. "But Judge I slowed down 2 mph when I saw the two cars, Im not a bad driver, honest"
Thats the same mentality of people that speed because "I am late for work" or " I have to go to the bathroom" or "the hospital paged me" or "I have to get home because my toilet overflowed".
Your excuse is just like all the other excuses that judges hear all the time. The bottom line is not really the excuse, unless life or death situations, is were you speeding? Are you speeding at 10 over the speed limit??
rabbit why dont you find out for yourself sometime maybe the judge will agree with you.
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Despite your ramble you made no counter point to what I said. Beyond saying this is the rule and you broke the rule so you must pay you have no point. Safety is one thing, jacking people because you can is another.
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I have a lot a cop friends, and every one of them are the worse drivers ever when it comes to speeding. I always let em drive when we are going places. :D
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Whatever dude. "Jacking" people up as you like to put it is my job. And because of drivers with that attitude like yours, I really enjoy my job. Do the police in your area pick on you alot? I guess your the type that cant do anything wrong and cant accept responsiblility for their actions.
BTW I got my point across.
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Your point is you have an arrogant self rightious attitude which you use to harrass people for no good reason. In doing so you create unsafe conditions by disrupting traffic and causing a distraction. How many millions of dollars, thousands of lives have been lost or disrupted by a cops who pulled someone over for a trivial matter only to cause a collision by passersby who are distracted? It's not a small number.
Yes, you got your point across but you did not counter mine at all. Would you like to try again? What is unsafe about a vehicle traveling in the middle lane of 3 on an open road with wide open visibility doing 10 mph over the posted speed limit? It's clearly illegal, your point. But how is it unsafe?
For the record, I have driven well over 500k miles and have never been pulled over. I drive the road speed be it 20 mph or 80 on a highway since its the difference in speed that causes risks not the speed itself. I don't tailgate, never rip through traffic, use directionals etc. Maybe the cops in my areas don't think like you and just pull people over who really stand out. Otherwise they focus on real crimes which explains why they are at such low rates in my area.
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t's clearly illegal, your point. But how is it unsafe?
Ok, so it's safe to speed?? Yes or no??
Incidently, my arrogance is a return for yours. So if its safe to drive 10 over on a three lane highway with you in the middle lane, then it would be safe for you to drive 10 over down a residential street with the chance children running out in the road or cars backing out of their driveways?
I am going to assume that with your mileage you are a truck driver and have at one time had some run ins with some highway patrol folks which might be a reason for your stupid reasoning and your hatred of police officers.
As far as cops causing all these accidents and reaking havoc because of traffic stops, for trivial matters, and passerbys who are distracted, I think you need to get a life or maybe grow up a little, I dont know which and dont really care. In fact, since having a good logical debate just flew out the window with your statements that cops are the scourage of the motoring world, your really a waste of time now. :noid
I do expect you to reply with more of your dribble. Again, I got my point acoss to you whether you accept it or not. :noid
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"
Incidently, my arrogance is a return for yours. So if its safe to drive 10 over on a three lane highway with you in the middle lane, then it would be safe for you to drive 10 over down a residential street with the chance children running out in the road or cars backing out of their driveways?"
its a matter of scale. he'd be as safe at 1 or 2 over in a residential area as 10 over on a highway.
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I really wouldn't say that a driver rubbernecking to look at the flashing lights is a cop's fault. It's bad driving, period.
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There is a reason that there are primae faceia (sp????) speed limits as well as other seemingly arbitrary traffic laws. That is because people cannot be trusted to drive consistently and safely based soley on their own skills and abilities. The second reason is you are almost NEVER on the roads alone and it's the guy you don't see or don't anticipate or don't have sufficient reaction time to deal with that will end up taking you out or being taken out by you. People often look but they don't see. Ask anyone who has ridden a motorcycle in heavy traffic for a bit.
Everyone driving on the road is supposed to be able to count on others following the same rules so they can be predictable. That means they will reasonably be able to determine it's safe to pull out onto the road since other vehicles are supposed to be going a predictable speed in the correct lanes and signalling before moving left or right on the roadway.
There is always someone who decides on their own they know better than the traffic engineers and civil engineers as to how THEY can drive. Sooner or later they end up finding themselves with a ticket or collision or both. Hopefully without anyone else having top pay a penalty for their arrogance that THEY know better than everyone else what is a safe way for them to drive on public roads.
M36 don't waste your time, it's futile to try and teach a rabbit to sing. It wastes your time, annoys the rabbit and he'll never learn to sing. (Apologies to R. Heinlein)
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Not a truck driver.. just a commuter. I don't hate cops, I respect the ones who don't have a us vs them attitude towards the rest of society. What I said is safe is safe. If you can't stop in your line of sight you are wrong. If you tailgate or cut through traffic or blast through stop signs and red lights you are wrong. Intelligence should trump the letter of the law. If the average road speed is 80 I don't turn myself into a rolling roadblock just because the posted speed limit is 55. I drive the average of the lane I'm in and get out of it if its faster than I think is safe. I drive newer vehicles that are designed for highway commuting and put the best tires I can find on them since they are the weakest link in an emergency. I have read about and witnessed plenty of crashes due to rubernecking from traffic stops. Its not the cops fault in itself but pulling someone for doing 5 over the posted limit does not seem like a intelligent decision for the cop to cause the inevitable for such a trivial matter. If you want me or anyone to respect your better than everyone else attitude you will be waiting a long time. My brother in law has 4 friends who recently became state cops. They cut lines to get in clubs, pick fights, demand free booze and flash their badges left and right expecting everything. Its the same BS arrogance that serves no one.