Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Widewing on July 14, 2006, 01:12:31 PM
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Over the past several days, I have used the F6F as my ride for training folks. I haven't flown it much since the update to the drag model and haven't tested it in a while.
Late Wednesday evening, I had a chance to duel a pretty good stick while flying the Hellcat. This fellow was in an N1K2-J.
Right from the get-go, something seemed different. I beat him on the merge by enough to hose him as he came over the top. From there on, the F6F was able to match the Niki turn for turn, including staying right on it in a full flap lufberry. Going vertical, the Niki tried to get above the Hellcat... No dice, the F6F was glued to his tail feathers.
Afterwards, I was still marveling at how the F6F had remained utterly stable as opposed to being a wobble monster not many months ago. Unfortunately, I wasn't running film.
Last evening I remembered to record my flights. Arriving in the TA around 11 PM eastern, I upped an F6F. about 10 miles west of field A1, Murdr and Iceman24 were dueling in P-38Js. I flew over and asked if I could join them, guns cold (I would not shoot or otherwise interfere). Lo and behold, the pudgeball Hellcat not only was able to stay with the P-38s, it did so without having to push it. Now, Murdr and Iceman are very, very able P-38 drivers, and it will take a pretty good fighter plane to follow their gyrations. Yet, the Hellcat did so, even in the vertical.
Later, we mixed it up again, this time Iceman was flying a 109F-4, which in case you've been living in a cave lately, is now one of the very best dogfighters in the game. Iceman24 hadn't flown the 109F-4 since the 2.07 update. Murdr was in a P-38J and LEDPIG was also in a PJ. once again, the Hellcat proved to be amazing. I won't describe the fight. Instead, you can watch this FILM (http://home.att.net/~C.C.Jordan/HellcatDance.zip)
Now, not being accustomed to the F6F being this good, I took a look at Mosq's test data for the Hellcat. Mosq reports a full flaps turn radius of 464.5 feet @ 20 degrees per second. I have tested enough aircraft to know that Mosq's data was accurate back in May when he did his testing. However, that was when the software revision was 2.07, patch 2. We are now in 2.08, patch 3. So, today I decided to retest the F6F-5. The test results were mindboggling... This formerly so-so dogfighter is now a genuine monster.
The data below shows turn radius and turn rate in degrees per second. I tested all five flap positions and no-flaps as well. The F6F was configured with 25% fuel, zero burn. Data is displayed as radius/rate in degrees/sec
No flaps: 675.0 feet / 19.68 degrees/sec
Flaps 1/5: 650.1 feet / 19.26 degrees/sec
Flaps 2/5: 560.8 feet / 21.59 degrees/sec
Flaps 3/5: 519.3 feet / 21.47 degrees/sec
Flaps 4/5: 445.3 feet / 23.23 degrees/sec*
Flaps 5/5: 430.5 feet / 22.07 degrees/sec**
For comparison, let's look at some other uber turners/dogfighters (all full flaps, 25% fuel)
N1K2-J: 413.8 / 22.5
109F-4: 437.6 / 20.8
F4U-1D: 427.3 / 19.4
Ki-84: 445.4 / 22.4
Spit16: 450.3 / 19.9
Spit9: 432.9 / 20.5
Seafire: 443.5 / 18.5
As you can see, the F6F-5 can now wade into a brawl and hand out beatings like never before. Only the very best turners can turn significantly smaller circles, but only the Zeros and Hurricane Mk.I can do so while matching or exceeding the Hellcat's remarkable turn rate (especially awesome with one notch less than full flaps).
Those of you who duel often in dissimilar fighters will recognize that turn rate is at least as important as turn radius, and often more important.
I have yet to test the Hellcat for acceleration and climb, but I did notice that the P-38J was unable to climb away by any significant margin. In addition, I did observe that the F6F was able to maintain 3,900 fpm while in auto-climb (at 25% fuel) up through 5k. I will do a full test over the weekend, but from what I have seen so far, the Hellcat can now live up to its real world reputation and its name. So, thanks HTC, those of us who like flying big blue fighters are grateful.
My regards,
Widewing
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Nice report, thanks Widewing.
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Nice report Widewing. And yes I agree the F6F is much improved since the updated drag model.
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shhhhh dangit
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Originally posted by Stang
Nice report Widewing. And yes I agree the F6F is much improved since the updated drag model.
Lets duel em Stang I havent had a good one since Wadke, YUCCA, and Creton bout 6 months ago! Give me shout on 200!
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Do not give away the secrets of the Big Bad Blue
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Gotta love the F6F.
Big Blue, Baby!
(http://webpages.charter.net/wbarritt/gp1.jpg)
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Damn, I gotta start flying the US uber planes again!
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The Hellcat is beautiful:D , I was there as Widewing was following Murdr, Iceman24, and Damionte in P-38 J's dueling and was suprised to see Widewings Hellcat hanging back there in the vertical. The P-38 still could out vertical it, but it was definitely hanging in there as we did our soaring gyrations. I think this is much closer to the real Hellcats performance:D
P.S. We'll have to test them out next time i go in the TA Widewing, as i would be interested in seeing the Hellcats performance. :D
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Originally posted by Mathman
Gotta love the F6F.
Big Blue, Baby!
(http://webpages.charter.net/wbarritt/gp1.jpg)
I'd hit it..
:aok
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the 38 might be able to outhang it but the F6 will definately follow it up and be able to get close for a good shot... I wasn't really stunned as to its turning ability, but it can loop and actually hang with the 38 in the vert and I never woulda thought that. I've flown the F4U's since the update and noticed they can now turn with the best but never noticed the hell kitty has now grown up to a full fledged hell cat, its a very very capable ride.
Widewing, that was fun last night
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Hellcats my baby!! Loved it since i first flew it!!
Thats why im flying it in "Operation Downfall"
:aok
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Originally posted by Iceman24
the 38 might be able to outhang it but the F6 will definately follow it up and be able to get close for a good shot... I wasn't really stunned as to its turning ability, but it can loop and actually hang with the 38 in the vert and I never woulda thought that. I've flown the F4U's since the update and noticed they can now turn with the best but never noticed the hell kitty has now grown up to a full fledged hell cat, its a very very capable ride. Widewing, that was fun last night
I was just as surprised at how the F6F can follow the P-38J thru loop after loop. The added stability now allows the pilot to perform really slick rudder reversals and not violently drop a wing as before.
Last evening I watched you discover the 109F-4's greatest weakness, its inability to roll right at low speeds. Torque effect is simply greater than the force that can be applied by the ailerons and rudder. This is especially evil when you have flaps out. It left you hanging there in space a couple of times. Eventually, you figure out that it's better to "go with the flow", so to speak. At low speeds, it rolls smartly to the left thanks to torque and adding a boot-full of rudder makes it roll extremely fast in that direction. The 109G-2 behaves in a similar manner, although one tends not to get that slow in the G-2. Under the circumstances existing last night, I just go left and avoid reversing to the right unless absolutely necessary. This becomes predictable, so it's a good idea to constantly change one's vertical component.
Another factor that requires some flight time in the 109F to master is learning when to retract the flaps to avoid burning off too much E. Eventually, you find that working the flaps up and down constantly will yield the best results. Inasmuch as this was your first experience in the 109F since the 2.07 update, you would not know the details of flying it without more time in it. While you were learning the 109F, I was getting the feel for the Hellcat's flaps. With the F6F, torque is a far smaller factor, largely due to the mass of the Hellcat and its excellent rudder. It rolls to the right quite nicely, even on the verge of a stall. I found that I rarely needed more than two or three notches. Four notches produces the best combination of turn radius and turn rate, but you still have the ability of going full down and really reefing it in tight. Because the F6F still has good control in all three axes of flight, even at extremely low speeds, it offers the pilot more options than the 109F does when flying at the ragged edge of a stall.
Anyway, those fights were great fun and a real eye opener.
My regards,
Widewing
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Awe c'mon Widewing. You gotta let all my secrets about the thing out of the bag :mad:
:D
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And I thought it was just me when I rocked in that Franz the other night.
Magoo
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That's a bunch of garbage its all in your head man.
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I took it for two hops friday nite. I won't be getting out of it soon.
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Nopoop you need to do some new stories for the BK web page.
That's some of the funniest stuff I've ever read.
Bronk
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Bronk I'd love to. Just getting back into the game and the flow. Glad you enjoy them.
With time and a good dose of Nor Cal wheelchair dank I'll do my best.
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Great thread! Thanks.
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Thanks WideWing, good write up.
I can see it's back to the test range for me.
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Allways liked the hellcat but it would really do a violent wing drop followed by and urecoverable spin at low speeds making it about ueless for how I fly (low and slow).
Are you saying that it behaves more like the FM2 at low speeds now?
lazs
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always has ya twit.
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can you say twit in here?
If you weren't better than me I would give your cartoon plane a good thrashing. You would be so humiliated that you wouldn't even be able to hold up your head again in any arena..... even the ava.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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I landed 5 the other day in a F6F-5. I know one thing, sure wasn't the pilot :D
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Originally posted by lazs2
Allways liked the hellcat but it would really do a violent wing drop followed by and urecoverable spin at low speeds making it about ueless for how I fly (low and slow).
Are you saying that it behaves more like the FM2 at low speeds now?
lazs
The F6F is a sweetheart around the stall... Did you view the film? No bad behavior was observed.
Creton and I were flying around examining and comparing the F6F and the F4U-1D. In a sustained turn, the F6F and F4U displayed similar turning circles. However, the F6F gained ground every turn of the circle (faster turn rate). I pulled into a tight left-hand climbing spiral. Not only was the F4U unable to match it, Chitown's Spit16 was unable to follow it either. It stalled repeatedly when he pulled it that tight. To get a shot, both the F4U and Spit would have to bare off, build speed and go for a snap shot on the zoom. This assumes the F6F remains in the spiral.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by fuzeman
I landed 5 the other day in a F6F-5. I know one thing, sure wasn't the pilot :D
HAHAHA I landed 4 today myself and was gonna post your exact comment. Great minds think alike:D
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wide... from what I have read about the F6F and F4U.... they both turned about the same with a slight edge to the hellcat at very slow speeds... so I guess the planes are performing more realistic. When I fly I have to turn the stall horn down cause that is all you can hear if it is up. I wouldn't spin the wildcats but the f6 allways caught me by surprise.
lazs
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and.. super... no one likes you tinkerbell... BK scum. If kurt tank were alive he would hit you with his purse for sure.
lazs
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Tried out the F6 again because of this thread.
Landed 19 kills in 3 sorties. Not 1 vulch I swear!
Great plane as long as you got someone to cover your egress.
g00b
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Originally posted by g00b
Tried out the F6 again because of this thread.
Landed 19 kills in 3 sorties. Not 1 vulch I swear!
Great plane as long as you got someone to cover your egress.
g00b
lol, g00b. I won't even say it! What kind of tree did Washington chop down?:rofl :aok
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Originally posted by SkyRock
lol, g00b. I won't even say it! What kind of tree did Washington chop down?:rofl :aok
Got the films, want em?
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i did 47-0 in 4 runs F6f5 the other day I bet greebo went to pimp my ride and they got back to him ......
Bruv
~S~
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Well, I did some additional testing with the F6F-5. I tested max speed at critical altitude and saw 386 mph at 20k. This is about 20 mph slower than the TAIC and Factory speed data for the type.
Acceleration isn't spectacular, but needing 25.12 seconds to accelerate from 150 mph to 250 mph at sea level puts it dead even with the P-51D.
Climb was good, getting to 10k from sea level in a virtual dead heat with the Yak-9U at 2 minutes, 14 seconds. That's just 7 seconds behind the La-7 and 8 seconds behind the Tempest.
Where the Hellcat really shows muscle is in a zoom climb. With another pilot, we compared the F6F-5 against the P-38J in zoom climb beginning at 300 mph TAS in WEP. The P-38 was eased into a steep climb with the Hellcat following close behind. When the P-38 stalled, the F6F motored right on by, climbing an additional 300 to 400 feet before it also fell off. We repeated this three times with the same result. This ability to retain E makes the F6F a very dangerous fighter. Clearly, it benefits a great deal from the revised drag model. Any attempt by a P-38 pilot to turn with the F6F is futile. Once airspeed drops below corner velocity, the Hellcat will turn inside the Lightning with ease. Even with full flaps deployed by the P-38J, the F6F's turn radius is more than 100 feet smaller and its turn rate is greater as well.
Among the whole of the plane set, I'd rate the F6F as one of the very best dogfighters, easily in the top 10. Combined with its ruggedness, large ammo capacity and the ability to carry the same bomb and rocket load as the P-51D and F4Us, it has to rank among the best overall fighters. Now, if only HTC would bump its speed up to where it should be....
My regards,
Widewing
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How would it fair with the KI84 at lower speeds?
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Originally posted by SuperDud
How would it fair with the KI84 at lower speeds?
Comparing test data we find that the F6F has a slightly tighter turn radius and indentical turn rate.
In a straight climb from sea level to 10k, the Ki-84 wins by 10 seconds. In a zoom climb, the F6F runs down a Co-E Ki-84, the result of its far greater mass.
Measuring acceleration, the Ki-84 gets from 150 mph to 250 mph slightly faster (two seconds).
Roll rate unassisted by rudder input goes to the Ki-84 at 107 degrees/sec Vs 72 degrees/sec for the Hellcat.
The F6F has much better rudder authority, meaning that at speeds below 150 mph, the F6F can be made to roll as quickly as the Ki-84. Below 100 mph the F6F rolls a bit faster.
Then we have the flaps factor. One major problem for the Ki-84 is that the F6F can begin deploying flaps at 250 mph, much faster than the Ki-84 can. This means that the Hellcat can out-turn the Ki-84 at all speeds below 250 mph.
Given approximately equal pilots, the 109F-4 will defeat the Ki-84 in a turn fight. I discovered this to be the case dueling with Timppa. Given approximately equal pilots, the F6F will defeat the 109F-4, demonstrated dueling with Creton and Iceman24 (kudos to Iceman for winning the recent KOTH event).
Therefore, I am comfortable in stating the the F6F will defeat the Ki-84 when both are flown by pilots of roughly equal skills. Invariably, there will be a skill differential in the MA. So, results will depend to some degree upon who is flying what.
One other interesting fact. It is virtually impossible to get the F6F into compressibility trouble. It will simply not "lock up". Indeed, at 575 mph (with combat trim on) it will pull out of a dive "hands off" without needing trim changes.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
One other interesting fact. It is virtually impossible to get the F6F into compressibility trouble. It will simply not "lock up". Indeed, at 575 mph (with combat trim on) it will pull out of a dive "hands off" without needing trim changes.
I didnt check exact speed, but above ~500mph almost impossible to handle Hellcat w/o trims. And you need trims to achieve this speed actually.
Btw, "combat trim on" == "using trims"
Hellcat very good fighter w/o doubt. It can win turnfight against spit5 or seafire with bit of luck :) Nevertheless, i still prefer F4U
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Originally posted by Oleg
I didnt check exact speed, but above ~500mph almost impossible to handle Hellcat w/o trims. And you need trims to achieve this speed actually.
Btw, "combat trim on" == "using trims"
Hellcat very good fighter w/o doubt. It can win turnfight against spit5 or seafire with bit of luck :) Nevertheless, i still prefer F4U
I'm afraid that I completely disagree. There are few, if any aircraft that handle as well as the F6F at very high speeds.
Below is a link to a short film that demontrates this. Beginning at 22,500 feet, I dive an F6F up to 595 mph, While still well above 580 mph, It rolls easily and I line up, attack and destroy a B-24 drone at very high speed.
I left it in combat trim and used absolutely no trim adjustments.
F6F-5 Dive Test (http://home.att.net/~c.c.jordan/F6F-DiveTest.ahf)
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
I'm afraid that I completely disagree. There are few, if any aircraft that handle as well as the F6F at very high speeds.
Below is a link to a short film that demontrates this. Beginning at 22,500 feet, I dive an F6F up to 595 mph, While still well above 580 mph, It rolls easily and I line up, attack and destroy a B-24 drone at very high speed.
It left it in combat trim and used absolutely no trim adjustments.
F6F-5 Dive Test (http://home.att.net/~c.c.jordan/F6F-DiveTest.ahf)
My regards,
Widewing
"Combat trims" move trims for you. Turn off combat trims and try again. If you will able to repeat this with combat trims off and w/o manual trims, i will admit i wrong.
Personally, i cannt handle F6F5 at such speed w/o trims at any form.
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The ava is ki84 and lala 5's and sevens. I do not find the Ki84 to be much of a turner... even the lala 5 outturns it pretty well. I noticed I was not at a disadvantage in the turn with them even when using the la7
I am assuming that all the guys I fought were as good or better than me (I am not that good) and that given that I have very little time in the La series and mostly fly the FM2.... I shoulda been handily out turned by the Ki if it's turn rate and circle were as good or better. The Ki does climb very quickly tho.
lazs
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Originally posted by Widewing
I'm afraid that I completely disagree. There are few, if any aircraft that handle as well as the F6F at very high speeds.
Below is a link to a short film that demontrates this. Beginning at 22,500 feet, I dive an F6F up to 595 mph, While still well above 580 mph, It rolls easily and I line up, attack and destroy a B-24 drone at very high speed.
It left it in combat trim and used absolutely no trim adjustments.
F6F-5 Dive Test (http://home.att.net/~c.c.jordan/F6F-DiveTest.ahf)
Two fighters known for having superior control at very high speeds in a dive are the Spitfires and F4Us.
I performed the exact same dive test flying the Spitfire Mk.VIII and F4U-1D. As with the F6F, dives began at 22.5k by rolling inverted. Combat trim was enabled.
You shall see that the Spitfire locked up and gradually eased out of the dive into a climbing right turn. It was impossible to control until speed had bled down.
On the other hand, the F4U also locked up. It did "free-up" eventually, but was uncontrollable at speeds where the F6F maneuvers easily. Film links below.
Spitfire Mk.VIII Dive Test (http://home.att.net/~c.c.jordan/Spit8-DiveTest.ahf)
F4U-1D Dive Test (http://home.att.net/~c.c.jordan/F4U-1D-DiveTest.ahf)
My regards,
Widewing
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Once again: if you enable combat trims then you use trims. Then it say nothing about high-speed handle without trims.
You can say one plane has better combat trims than another or it has better control with trims or so on, but you cannt say it has better control w/o trims.
Btw, you cannt make same w/o trims at all, right?
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Originally posted by Oleg
Once again: if you enable combat trims then you use trims. Then it say nothing about high-speed handle without trims.
You can say one plane has better combat trims than another or it has better control with trims or so on, but you cannt say it has better control w/o trims.
Btw, you cannt make same w/o trims at all, right?
There is no such thing as w/o trim. Trim tabs are ALWAYS set to some position. You can pre-set trim to assist in a dive or you can pre-set trim for max speed. Combat trim tends to do the latter by eliminating or reducing stick forces. Virtually every aircraft requires trim changes over its speed range.
In the game, most aircraft fly as well in combat trim as they could being manually trimmed. Some don't, such as the P-38 and Ki-84. Leaving combat trim on for the F4Us and F6F does no harm and there is nothing to be gained by trimming manually.
It should also be mentioned that the F6F requires very little trim adjustment between 200 and 590 mph. You can see this in the film. Combat trim barely changes trim throughout the dive.
My point was and is that no other fighter has better control at high speeds with or without manual trim. In other words, the pilot has enough mechanical advantage remaining at very high speeds to maneuver the F6F, while most if not all other aircraft cannot.
How many fighters can dive nearly 20,000 feet at full throttle while still being light enough on the controls to maneuver and bring guns to bear at nearly 600 mph? Darn few. Indeed, the F6F is certainly one of the best at a high-speed bounce.
If any fighter in the plane set is nearly auger-proof, the F6F is it.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
Leaving combat trim on for the F4Us and F6F does no harm and there is nothing to be gained by trimming manually.
I'm not sure I'd agree regarding the F4U... TC suggested fiddling with my elevator trim a bit (slap it at the bottom of the "L"), and I have to admit, I think it makes the plane much more stable slow, especially when pushing the nose up.
When I forget to trim out, I notice it during the fight.
Then again, it might just be that I got used to trimming manually, and had I not, I could have gotten similar performance by simply "learning it" the other way around. I have my doubts, however.
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Originally posted by Widewing
There is no such thing as w/o trim. Trim tabs are ALWAYS set to some position.
In neutral, for example? ;)
High-speed handling is all about compression. If you can perform high speed maneuvers with "main" control surfaces w/o trim adjusting then your plane has good handling at high speed, if you need to adjust your trim - your plane has bad handling at high speed. Easy enough, huh?
In RL all high-speed handling test performed w/o trim adjusting, i believe. So you cannt make your tests with combat trims on and compare it with RL tests.
But if your point about combat trim realizations only, then ok, i can agree with you. It dont means F6F5's trims are wrong, nevertheless. M.b. they actually was more effective than usual due some reasons, i dont know.
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Originally posted by Oleg
In neutral, for example? ;)
High-speed handling is all about compression. If you can perform high speed maneuvers with "main" control surfaces w/o trim adjusting then your plane has good handling at high speed, if you need to adjust your trim - your plane has bad handling at high speed. Easy enough, huh?
In RL all high-speed handling test performed w/o trim adjusting, i believe. So you cannt make your tests with combat trims on and compare it with RL tests.
But if your point about combat trim realizations only, then ok, i can agree with you. It dont means F6F5's trims are wrong, nevertheless. M.b. they actually was more effective than usual due some reasons, i dont know.
High-speed handling isn't exclusively related to compression. It is also related to mechanical power advantage of the aircraft controls to displace surfaces when under high aero forces. For example, the A6M series suffered from a lack of rolling ability due to the a lack of mechanical advantage and high aileron forces. This had nothing to do with compression. Bf 109s suffered from high control forces at speeds well below that where compression was an issue.
Test reports I've read indicated that aircraft were trimmed as required. Neutral trim will result in a pitch-up condition at high speeds for the real F6F because of wing and tailplane incidence.
In the game, you can trim nose full down and actually improve F6F high-speed handling a bit by reducing the tendency to pitch up, but this is not beneficial below 550 mph.
Some aircraft require more trim adjustment over the full speed range than others. Hellcats require very little. Ki-84s require a lot. If planes were perfectly well balanced over the entire speed range, they would not need tabs. However, all designs are a compromise. Indeed, the primary purpose of the tabs if to reduce the labor of flying by minimizing the forces operating against the pilot's controls. A properly trimmed aircraft generates less drag and greatly reduces pilot workload.
Within the game, Combat trim works very well, except at the extreme ends of the speed envelope. Most planes see no measureable gain trimming manually at very low speeds. Virtually all will see an improvement by trimming manually at high speeds, some more than others. In this case, the F6F probably benefits the least by manual trimming.
My regards,
Widewing
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I took a look at your data, and originally I screamed "blasphemer! blasphemer! dirty dirty poopy face!"
but then I decided to try several engagements in the TA, a squaddie of mine and I switched off between the F6F and KI-84
one thing that should be noted, the turn performance of the Ki-84 with full flaps results in miserable performance, this is not something that is normally done.
Here's what the results were:
The F6F pilot needs to take the shot or two he gets on the initial part of the engagement, otherwise the KI is controling the fight after the first 40 secs or so
zoom performance is about the same but the combination of better acceleration and better climb of the KI is leathal to the F6F
once settled into a climbing spiral the KI will climb up and away from the F6F and the Hellcat will never be able to get the nose high enough to get a shot, eventuall the KI will roll over on top and then it's game over
in one fight, the F6F decided to disenage from a climbing spiral at 7K and dive straight down on to the deck, and while the KI was at it's dive limits, it stayed on and infact pulled into about D400 from the hellcats tail
I fly the KI all the time, so I felt completely comfortable, and the other pilot who basically never flies the KI84 still came to the same conclusion: we would both much rather be in the KI84 in the fight instead of the F6F.
POOPY FACE!!! POOPY POOPY POOPY FACE!!!!!!!!!
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Originally posted by Bombardy
I fly the KI all the time, so I felt completely comfortable, and the other pilot who basically never flies the KI84 still came to the same conclusion: we would both much rather be in the KI84 in the fight instead of the F6F.
POOPY FACE!!! POOPY POOPY POOPY FACE!!!!!!!!!
I'm in the TA training folks almost every week night, usually after 9 PM eastern. So, drop on in and we can duel, F6F-5 Vs Ki-84.
My regards,
Widewing
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I'll drop in and see if I can catch you in the TA
all your bullets are rubber and mine are glue, they bounce off me and stick to you!
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Originally posted by Widewing
Test reports I've read indicated that aircraft were trimmed as required.
To maintain straight-line flight, as it was used in RL almost exclusively.
Originally posted by Widewing
Neutral trim will result in a pitch-up condition at high speeds for the real F6F because of wing and tailplane incidence.
Sure. I said it just to note not every trim position affect you flight.
Originally posted by Widewing
In the game, you can trim nose full down and actually improve F6F high-speed handling a bit by reducing the tendency to pitch up, but this is not beneficial below 550 mph.
Like in any other plane, isnt it?
May be Hellcat has better trims than other planes, may be not. And i dont know how it must be actually, because i never see any mentions about trim effectiveness in any plane.
And i will say it again: you cannt compare tests related to high-speed handling with combat trims enabled and RL tests. It has not any sense.
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Originally posted by Oleg
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Like in any other plane, isnt it?
May be Hellcat has better trims than other planes, may be not. And i dont know how it must be actually, because i never see any mentions about trim effectiveness in any plane.
And i will say it again: you cannt compare tests related to high-speed handling with combat trims enabled and RL tests. It has not any sense.
I've dive tested most of the plane set. Using manual trim in all but two does not prevent lock-up. In a Spitfire, 190 or P-51 full nose up trim results in an inability to point the nose where you want it, and the aircraft simply climbs out until the speed drops. Full nose down trim will result in a terminal velocity dive that will result in a crash. Full nose down trim in an F6F does not result in a loss of control. That makes it rather unique among the other planes in the game. Using combat trim significantly hurts those others at very high dive speeds, while the F6F suffers much less than they do while in combat trim.
Perhaps it is the language barrier, but I have never implied that combat trim is in any way comparable to actual aircraft. Only you have mentioned RL aircraft. My discussion had been, up until that point, confined to planes within the game.
I'm trying clear up any misunderstanding....
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
Perhaps it is the language barrier, but I have never implied that combat trim is in any way comparable to actual aircraft. Only you have mentioned RL aircraft. My discussion had been, up until that point, confined to planes within the game.
I thought next quote bold paragraph was related to RL planes. If not, then i didnt understood your words right.
Originally posted by Widewing
Two fighters known for having superior control at very high speeds in a dive are the Spitfires and F4Us.
I performed the exact same dive test flying the Spitfire Mk.VIII and F4U-1D. As with the F6F, dives began at 22.5k by rolling inverted. Combat trim was enabled.
You shall see that the Spitfire locked up and gradually eased out of the dive into a climbing right turn. It was impossible to control until speed had bled down.
On the other hand, the F4U also locked up. It did "free-up" eventually, but was uncontrollable at speeds where the F6F maneuvers easily.
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Originally posted by Oleg
I thought next quote bold paragraph was related to RL planes. If not, then i didnt understood your words right.
I should have been more specific. My bad.
My regards,
Widewing