Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: ~Caligula~ on July 14, 2006, 05:33:32 PM
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thank you all that support israel in this current crisis.(i cought the tread before it sunk into the "closed" cemetery)
in my oppinion it`ll blow over soon, and nothing will change. the three soldiers will never return alive to their homes, hezbollah and hamas will stay where they are, syria and iran will keep giving them cash and weapons...terrorism will continue to plague the world.
....we could crush them, but we shouldn`t and we won`t...so it`ll keep on going...as sad as it is.
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for myself, thankyou israel. all the best caligula to you, those that are close to you and your countrymates. israel is often in my prayers.
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It is sad.
Glad you're ok:)
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I was hoping you would post something Caligula. All of us can say what we want about the situation thousands of miles away. First hand accounts not filtered through the news are in my opinion better.
Good luck Caligula and to your family, freinds, and nation.
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Relax,
Israel is not in war, not even close. This is barely a skirmish.
Lebanon can end this instantly. All it has to do is deploy its army along the international border and not allow a private army to attack from its territory (as it should have done 6 years ago). The Hizballa has abundoned its positions along the south border, all they need to do is march there. Lebanon army is not being attacked by Israel.
If the Lebanon army and goverment cannot be bothered with ruling and controling their own country they have no excuse to come crying. Israel has no claims from Lebanon except for it to keep the border that the worthless UN has so kindly marked for us. If the Hizballa is not happy with it they can send a letter to the UN.
Bozon
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Stay safe Caligula and Bozon
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How the heck did Hezbollah hit a warship, with that drone !?? weak defence israely navy.:(
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weak statement ghi
I am sure you have ALL the facts of this attack before you made your lame comment
the US Navy once had motorboat with a torpedo strapped to its bow ram one of her warships .. anything is possible .. once
Israel
keep fighting the good fight
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Rip'em a new one Israel!
The US Govt. wouldn't care about 3 soldiers..
Unless they held super duper sec.... :confused:
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Good Luck Caligua and Bozon.
I think that Lebanon just set itself back economically 25 years.
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One should just look at Israels past history and battles they have fought. Not a force to be reckoned with. Israel can hold their own in battle.
Mac
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Originally posted by AWMac
One should just look at Israels past history and battles they have fought. Not a force to be reckoned with. Israel can hold their own in battle.
Mac
well... they are the "Chosen People". Anything is possible for them:aok
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Originally posted by AWMac
One should just look at Israels past history and battles they have fought. Not a force to be reckoned with. Israel can hold their own in battle.
Mac
only because the United States resupplies them with material as it is put out of action. during the yom kippur war we were replacing israeli tanks as quickly as the egyptians could knock them out and in the initial phase of the battle the egyptians took out a significant number of israeli armor. without that timely support israel would have lost despite the gallantry of israeli personnel and it's excellent leadership. isreal depends on the United States to back them up. without our support there would be no israel.
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I am a fan of Israel. I am not a fan of our homegrown liberal jews tho. I can't reconcile the thinking of our home grown jews with that of yours.
Perhaps some day you could explain this bizzare 180 degree thinking shift between two groups of the same race and religion and history?
It is one of the great mysteries to me.
Also... why do you think so many your-0-peeans are so anti-semetic?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
Also... why do you think so many your-0-peeans are so anti-semetic?
All in your head lazs
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This is why Israel has to hammer them into the ground:
For four decades we have been told that the cause of the anger, violence and terror against Israel is its occupation of the territories seized in that war. End the occupation and the "cycle of violence" ceases.
The problem with this claim was that before Israel came into possession of the West Bank and Gaza in the Six-Day War, every Arab state had rejected Israel's right to exist and declared Israel's pre-1967 borders -- now deemed sacred -- to be nothing more than the armistice lines suspending, and not ending, the 1948-49 war to exterminate Israel.
But you don't have to be a historian to understand the intention of Israel's enemies. You only have to read today's newspapers.
Exhibit A: Gaza. Just last September, Israel evacuated Gaza completely. It declared the border between Israel and Gaza an international frontier, renouncing any claim to the territory. Gaza became the first independent Palestinian territory in history. Yet the Gazans continued the war. They turned Gaza into a base for launching rocket attacks against Israel and for digging tunnels under the border to conduct attacks such as the one that killed two Israeli soldiers on June 25 and yielded a wounded hostage brought back to Gaza. Israeli tanks have now had to return to Gaza to try to rescue the hostage and suppress the rocket fire.
Exhibit B: South Lebanon. Two weeks later, the Lebanese terror organization, Hezbollah, which has representation in the Lebanese parliament and in the cabinet, launched an attack into Israel on Wednesday that resulted in the deaths of eight soldiers and the wounding of two others, who were brought back to Lebanon as hostages.
What's the grievance here? Israel withdrew from Lebanon completely in 2000. It was so scrupulous in making sure that not one square inch of Lebanon was left inadvertently occupied that it asked the United Nations to verify the exact frontier defining Lebanon's southern border and retreated behind it. This "blue line" was approved by the Security Council, which declared that Israel had fully complied with resolutions demanding its withdrawal from Lebanon.
Grievance satisfied. Yet what happens? Hezbollah has done to South Lebanon exactly what Hamas has done to Gaza: turned it into a military base and terrorist operations center from which to continue the war against Israel. South Lebanon bristles with Hezbollah's 10,000 Katyusha rockets that put northern Israel under the gun. Fired in the first hours of fighting, just 85 of these killed two Israelis and wounded 120 in Israel's northern towns.
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/13/AR2006071301667.html
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well nelson... I could be wrong but to most Americans the your-0-peeans seem very anti semetic and biggoted in general.
It could be just a myth that a whole bunch of people believe just like.... your-0-peeans all seem to believe that the U.S., the most integrated society in the world, is full of biggots.
lazs
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Free press allows for all views in the media.
We dont see things as much in black and white as you do.Its just like the constant use of the word anti-amercan if some would dare criticise america on issues.
Its expected from you tho i guess.. trying desperatly to insult by namcalling. Most people outgrow that by the time they hit 14.
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Ooops... struck a nerve. I did not say anything about anti-American.
I simply said that Americans percieve your-0-peeeans as being anti semetic and your-0-peeans percieve Americans as being biggoted.
I never believe anything in the press so you can't lay that one on me. I go by what people actually say. On this BB I don't think anyone can miss the your-0-peean anti semetic feel.
I have no idea how you stand on it. You may or may not be like most your-0-peeans. You haven't said many anti semetic things here that I can point to.
lazs
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nahh.. didnt strike a nerve at all.
The most likley reason for hearing "anti-semetic" things here from europeans is that fact that the majority of the things on this BBS from the americans tend to be (understandable to some degree) "anti-arabic" or "anti-muslim"
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Originally posted by Nilsen
All in your head lazs
< Like Hell it is !
CHECKERS
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Get some Israel!
Although terrorism will not be stopped as a whole, it is good to see another country getting in the mix on it`s own without having to be dragged, kicking and screaming/whining just to save face.
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GO ISRAEL!!!
Israel has every right to defend herself, and if the US should get dragged into this, so be it. Its our duty to stop any country that wants to harm us or our freinds and allies. And i dont want to sounds like a war obsessor. War is bad, but if its needed, let it be. What would the world be like if Hitler's 3rd Reich was still around??
God Bless Israel and The United States of America!!
:aok
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Both Lebanon and Israel has a right to defend themselves.
Neither of them gets a thumbs-up from me.
Hizbolla started, but Israel responded way to harsh.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Both Lebanon and Israel has a right to defend themselves.
Neither of them gets a thumbs-up from me.
Hizbolla started, but Israel responded way to harsh.
You cannot see a difference between Hizbollah / Hamas making their life's work targeting Jewish women and children, versus Israel defending itself? Really don't know how to respond to that. Overwhelming force is the only thing that even has a NEGligible effect on these people. Your view seems to mirror that of the EU/UN as well..of course, THEY don't have suicide bombers and rockets raining down on them every day for generations
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Originally posted by bj229r
You cannot see a difference between Hizbollah / Hamas making their life's work targeting Jewish women and children, versus Israel defending itself? Really don't know how to respond to that. Overwhelming force is the only thing that even has a NEGligible effect on these people. Your view seems to mirror that of the EU/UN as well..of course, THEY don't have suicide bombers and rockets raining down on them every day for generations
Israel are killing civilians too and hitting infrastructure that makes life for the innocent worse. Its right there on the news for everyone to see... unless its cencored.
Overwhelming force makes little differece.
Would the US roll over and play dead if someone struck you REALLY hard or would you be more determened to kick back?
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I suppose the only thing I find confusing is the attack on Beirut International airport. Isnt that an internation civilian airport???? werent there aircraft from other nations there ????
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Originally posted by jamesdeanoo7
I suppose the only thing I find confusing is the attack on Beirut International airport. Isnt that an internation civilian airport???? werent there aircraft from other nations there ????
They didnt hit any planes, but there may have been some stuck on the ground. Maybe the Israeli government gave the airport warning or maybe they hit at night.
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Israel said that they attacked the runways so it wouldnt continue to be used as a resupply point for the terrorists. The terrorists were supposedly streaming in through the airport.
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hezbollah gets supplies from iran trough the beirut int. airport. that is why it was bombed...at least that`s what we`re told.
the ship was hit by an iranian made missle. it has the range to reach tel aviv.i`m sure once tel aviv`s hit, we`ll enter lebanon once again.
i hope it won`t happen though, i wish my tax shekels weren`t spent on all this bs.
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I'm trying to remember the last time a Jewish Militant walked into a Palistinian market place and exploded a bomb... or when a Jew attacked a Palistinian Airport lobby, when was the last time Jews had captured Palistinian Olympic Members and killed them? (Munchen)
Please read your History. Prior to 1948 no Middle Eastern Country wanted anything to do with the Palistinains.. they were rebuked by Egypt, Syria and others. No one wanted to be associated with them... they were nothing until the Jews were reestablished in 1948. Returned to they're land..
There was a great Documentary on this.. I wish I could find it again.
But in all in all... Israel is protecting itself and I wish them well, supportive.
Irans President needs to drop the opium pipe.... So far he's claimed the the Holocost never happened and it was a lie. That Israel need to be wiped off the face of the Earth... Syria has laffed in our face by supporting and sending insurgents from Syria into Iraq to disrupt all.
North Korea is just like a chained up stray dog, barking and growling to get attention.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Mac
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Originally posted by storch
only because the United States resupplies them with material as it is put out of action. during the yom kippur war we were replacing israeli tanks as quickly as the egyptians could knock them out and in the initial phase of the battle the egyptians took out a significant number of israeli armor. without that timely support israel would have lost despite the gallantry of israeli personnel and it's excellent leadership. isreal depends on the United States to back them up. without our support there would be no israel.
That's not entirely accurate. The IDF could very well be the absolute best at pulling destroyed/damaged tanks off the battlefield, repairing them and sending them back into combat with new crews. Heck, the Israelis pull damaged/destroyed Arab tanks off the battlefield, repair them, regun them and send them back into battle against their former owners.
Due to political pressures I dont believe the US actually sent any military equiptment to Israel while the Yom Kippur war was going on. The Yom Kippur War only lasted about 30 days, most of the Israeli tank losses were in the initial stages of the war. By the end of the war the majority of those tanks had been repaired and sent back into combat.
The Yom Kippur war saw the first use of large quantities of anti-tank missles by infantry. This took the Israeli tank units by surprise, they apparently didnt realize just how many Sagger missles (I think that was the missle) the Egyptians had.
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Would it not have been better for the Israeli secret service (dont remember the name atm) to try and find the soldiers? History has shown that they are some really clever guys with impressive results. They are prolly the best "spy" guys in the world.
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Moussad
Nilsen I applaud you Sir!
:aok
Mac
Still like yer beard !
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Israel are killing civilians too and hitting infrastructure that makes life for the innocent worse. Its right there on the news for everyone to see... unless its cencored.
Overwhelming force makes little differece.
Would the US roll over and play dead if someone struck you REALLY hard or would you be more determened to kick back?
Just saw on MSN that the Israeli's are using prescion guided munitions and are making every attempt to avoid civilian casualties. They are however, hitting any and all KNOWN Hizbollah buildings.
Yeah, some of the infrastructure that is being hit will make life harder for innocents. Those innocents only have the Lebanese gov't to blame though. If the Lebanese had secured their side of the border like they were suppossed to when the IDF pulled out of south Lebanon the fighting today would most likely not be happening.
For the record, I support Israel and believe the US and all countries should support Israel as well.
To all Israeli's and especially those on this board, I hope you and all your loved ones come through this safely.
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
hezbollah gets supplies from iran trough the beirut int. airport. that is why it was bombed...at least that`s what we`re told.
the ship was hit by an iranian made missle. it has the range to reach tel aviv.i`m sure once tel aviv`s hit, we`ll enter lebanon once again.
i hope it won`t happen though, i wish my tax shekels weren`t spent on all this bs.
Just wondering, but did you have to serve in the military being that your nation has compulsory service? (Dumb question i know)
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Would it not have been better for the Israeli secret service (dont remember the name atm) to try and find the soldiers? History has shown that they are some really clever guys with impressive results. They are prolly the best "spy" guys in the world.
While the Moussad probably could have found and retrieved the captured soldiers, that would have done nothing to resolve the problem of Hizbollah's private army occupying the land on the Lebanese side of the border and attacking Israel from there.
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it`s not about the soldiers anymore. rockets are raining down on our cities,people`s homes are being destroyed. i just watched em on the news, those 122mm rockets do a lot of damage.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Would it not have been better for the Israeli secret service (dont remember the name atm) to try and find the soldiers? History has shown that they are some really clever guys with impressive results. They are prolly the best "spy" guys in the world.
The best way to get this resolved is to cut ALL aid from ALL sides and then let them duke it out. The winner gets the land. Same ol stuff for the last 50 years and all of sudden it's supposed to start working. :rolleyes: Same as sticking medal in a outlet over and over and expecting a different outcome each time. Stupid if you ask me.
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Originally posted by BlueJ1
Just wondering, but did you have to serve in the military being that your nation has compulsory service? (Dumb question i know)
i immigrated too old to serve in the IDF. i wish i could have though.
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
it`s not about the soldiers anymore. rockets are raining down on our cities,people`s homes are being destroyed. i just watched em on the news, those 122mm rockets do a lot of damage.
~Caligula~ You & yours , stay safe !
GO ISRAEL!!!
CHECKERS ....
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
it`s not about the soldiers anymore. rockets are raining down on our cities,people`s homes are being destroyed. i just watched em on the news, those 122mm rockets do a lot of damage.
I know, but those rockets would not have started raining down if Israel had not started the "offencive" right? Violence breeds viloence.
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
i immigrated too old to serve in the IDF. i wish i could have though.
Then Bud just take good care of you and your Family and stay low...Shalom.
Mac
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Originally posted by Nilsen
I know, but those rockets would not have started raining down if Israel had not started the "offencive" right? Violence breeds viloence.
The rockets probably would have been fired on Israeli cities eventually anyways. Wouldn't be the first time either.
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Originally posted by Elfie
The rockets probably would have been fired on Israeli cities eventually anyways. Wouldn't be the first time either.
Thats prolly true. In most tense areas both sides are looking for and excuse to open fire, but with clever diplomacy and/or keeping your head cool you can avoid it for as long as possible or alltogheter.
So far over 100 civilian casualties on both sides.
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Norway today decided to give 100million NOK extra to gaza.. that brings the total to 600mil NOK this year.
Before yall go nutz the money does not go to the government there, but to norwegian red cross centeres there and basic foods/ medicines for those.
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Only problem with the *clever diplomacy* Nilsen is Hizbollah doesnt want Israel to exist. They would glady wipe out every single Israeli.....man, woman and child. Sad, but true.
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HHmmm seems to me to be interesting here. Isreal gets invaded and attacked with an unproviked surprise attrack that kills soldiers and kidnaps others. Now it's Isreal getting criticised about responding???? WTF is the criticism for the innitial attack, not to mention the other rocket attacks that happen in Isreali territory.
If lebanon was so freaking innocent, why did they allow a terrorist group to virtually fortify an area with arms then allow an attack on Isreal from their land?
Seems to me that you can roll over only so many time before you just have to kick the **** out of the person who won't leave you alone. The UN certainly won't hold them back so Isreal really has no choice but to defend itself.
I say good luck and good hunting Isreal. We need to fire up the logistics train and get ready to provide support for them. It's damn straight that syria, iran and lebanon aren't going to be very much of an ally of the US, we need to make sure we have a good and strong one in the ME and that happens to be Isreal.
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Originally posted by Elfie
Only problem with the *clever diplomacy* Nilsen is Hizbollah doesnt want Israel to exist. They would glady wipe out every single Israeli.....man, woman and child. Sad, but true.
Oh yes.. no doubt about that.
But we all know that they do operate with the Lebanese governments """blessing""". That government is not in love with Israel, but they do have some say in the movements of the hizbolla even if they may claim not to. Destroying their infrastructure will not help things.
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Originally posted by Maverick
HHmmm seems to me to be interesting here. Isreal gets invaded and attacked with an unproviked surprise attrack that kills soldiers and kidnaps others. Now it's Isreal getting criticised about responding???? WTF is the criticism for the innitial attack, not to mention the other rocket attacks that happen in Isreali territory.
If lebanon was so freaking innocent, why did they allow a terrorist group to virtually fortify an area with arms then allow an attack on Isreal from their land?
Seems to me that you can roll over only so many time before you just have to kick the **** out of the person who won't leave you alone. The UN certainly won't hold them back so Isreal really has no choice but to defend itself.
I say good luck and good hunting Isreal. We need to fire up the logistics train and get ready to provide support for them. It's damn straight that syria, iran and lebanon aren't going to be very much of an ally of the US, we need to make sure we have a good and strong one in the ME and that happens to be Isreal.
Everyone here is against the Hizbollas initial action and if you belive that some support it then make this post a statement of the oposite.
Nobody here is saying that it is wrong for Israel to respond.... its the MASSIVE responce that we dont agree on.
Bomb hizbhollas camps... great (even if you may risk killing the captured soldiers.. they are prolly dead tho)
I strongly feel that the infrastructure and powerplants that supports the CIVILIANS is wrong. Over 100 dead civilians is not IMO a well preportioned response.
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Destroying the infrastructure puts pressure on the Lebanese gov't. Hopefully it puts enough pressure on them so that they actually take care of their side of the border like they are suppossed to.
The massive response from Israel is what it will take (imo) to force the Lebanese gov't to keep their side of the border from being one big fortified base for groups like Hizbollah.
And, I just read somewhere, that the Lebanese Army is preparing for a counterattack to push the Israelis out of Lebanon. The Lebanese army has no hope of beating the IDF in battle.
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Nilsen,
To win a war you must destroy the enemy, their ability or will to fight. In this case the infrastructure you are whining about happens to be exactly how they armed up the area and how they resupply. They also have been rather callous about setting up a military operation inside of the civilian populationliving space. Kind of hard to totally avoid civilian casualties when the enemy hides inside their cities and towns.
The absolute best way to get the conflict over with it to use overwhelming force and end it as fast as possible rather than draw it out by being overly cautious or overly concerned with how much force is used on the enemy. You can't win the war with kindness.
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I strongly feel that the infrastructure and powerplants that supports the CIVILIANS is wrong.
Nilsen, that very same infrastructure and powerplants helps support the Lebanese gov't and Hizbollah. Destroying it hurts them too.
I know, it hurts innocents as well. I don't like that fact anymore than you do. The innocents only have the Lebanese gov't and Hizbollah to blame. Although they will probably blame Israel instead.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Nilsen,
To win a war you must destroy the enemy, their ability or will to fight. In this case the infrastructure you are whining about happens to be exactly how they armed up the area and how they resupply. They also have been rather callous about setting up a military operation inside of the civilian populationliving space. Kind of hard to totally avoid civilian casualties when the enemy hides inside their cities and towns.
The absolute best way to get the conflict over with it to use overwhelming force and end it as fast as possible rather than draw it out by being overly cautious or overly concerned with how much force is used on the enemy. You can't win the war with kindness.
Thats were we differ.. first of all i dont whine, im just like so many other times here pissing against the wind :D I try to do it in a civil manner without tossin insults around (not pointing the finger at you this time Mav). Its just that every time civilians are hurt then the pity always falls on those that are you "our/your" side but those on the "other" side are just inevetable casualties of war.
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Originally posted by Elfie
Nilsen, that very same infrastructure and powerplants helps support the Lebanese gov't and Hizbollah. Destroying it hurts them too.
I know, it hurts innocents as well. I don't like that fact anymore than you do. The innocents only have the Lebanese gov't and Hizbollah to blame. Although they will probably blame Israel instead.
Yup the attacks hurt the hiz and the government that may support them... yet the first and majority of casualties are always innocent. They are reduced to pawns in a game were they always loose.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Yup the attacks hurt the hiz and the government that may support them... yet the first and majority of casualties are always innocent. They are reduced to pawns in a game were they always loose.
Isnt that the case in every war Nilsen? The innocents are the first and majority of casualties and pawns in a game they always lose. War sucks for everyone.
They should all sit down and have a hamburger together imo. Maybe share some bbq'd ribs. Hard to kill the guy you just ate lunch with.
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Originally posted by Elfie
Isnt that the case in every war Nilsen? The innocents are the first and majority of casualties and pawns in a game they always lose. War sucks for everyone.
They should all sit down and have a hamburger together imo. Maybe share some bbq'd ribs. Hard to kill the guy you just ate lunch with.
That is the policy of our government actually and they have recieved plenty of ack for it. We accepted officials from hizbholla and many other organisations that are labled terrorists. Its their polity to never deny anyone a place/forum and try to start a dialogue. We have never bowed for international preassure for this policy. The results are ofcourse not revolutionary, but every party in any conflict know by now that they have a medium on neutral ground to try and mend things. The so called Oslo treaty from many years back worked.....for a while. The secret talks between the Tamil Tigres and the govenment in Sri Lanka worked... for awhile and there may stil be a shread of hope there..
The point of the government is to never close channels however grusom the partys invoved may be.
This policy will always be an unpolupar one by many, but I beilve its the right thing to do.
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Now im on my way to becoming drunk (enter lazs for the usual comment on my "alcoholism" :D ) and my mood is great. Its the last day of my holiday and tomorrow ill take the family sailing home. Its been 14 great days sailing out of our summer house but its over for now.
Have a nice day and enjoy the hot summer nigts. I wont discuss this any more until im sober so this is my closing statement for tonight.
I have a bottle of glenlivit 15yo and plenty of ice to last me way into the wee hours. :) The missus and I have put Mia to bed and the BBQ is cooking some nice salmon.
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Nilsen
You must adopt me soon before you open that bottle.... Did I mention that MY daughters name is Mia? Well Michelle, but she goes by Mia... she 24, stunningly attractive....
Don't open the bottle yet.
I can fax adoption papers and be on a jet in 1 hour.
Mac
Always wanted to see Norwie, Norweign.. watermelon Finnland.
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Originally posted by AWMac
I'm trying to remember the last time a Jewish Militant walked into a Palistinian market place and exploded a bomb... or when a Jew attacked a Palistinian Airport lobby, when was the last time Jews had captured Palistinian Olympic Members and killed them? (Munchen)
Please read your History. Prior to 1948 no Middle Eastern Country wanted anything to do with the Palistinains.. they were rebuked by Egypt, Syria and others. No one wanted to be associated with them... they were nothing until the Jews were reestablished in 1948. Returned to they're land..
There was a great Documentary on this.. I wish I could find it again.
But in all in all... Israel is protecting itself and I wish them well, supportive.
Irans President needs to drop the opium pipe.... So far he's claimed the the Holocost never happened and it was a lie. That Israel need to be wiped off the face of the Earth... Syria has laffed in our face by supporting and sending insurgents from Syria into Iraq to disrupt all.
North Korea is just like a chained up stray dog, barking and growling to get attention.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Mac
How about the massacre in the Ibrahimi Mosque in 1994?
A nut is a nut no matter what nationality.
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What makes it worse is that they intentionally place their targets inside civilian centers so any attack unfortunately causes loss of innocent life. This has been a tactic for decades, and is coldly calculated for maximum impact on world opinion if Israel decides to strike against the Palestinians, Lebanese or anyone else.
It's sick, they put their own innocents in peril just to make Israel look bad on the international stage. And it looks like everyone's falling for it once again.
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Actually, it is possible that Hexbollah's tactics and policies may be back firing on them. It seems that many of the civilians who are paying the price for Hezbollah's actions are unhappy about it, and they're blaming the government for allowing Hezbollah to operate, and Hezbollah for pissing off Israel.
Seems nailing the infrastructure might work like punishing the whole platoon for what a couple of guys did. Sometimes the platoon gets pissed off and holds a little blanket party for the troublemaker(S). Usually works pretty well from what I'm told.
Nilsen, much like the "Palestinians", by electing either PLO/PLA or Hamas to represent them make themselves responsible for the actions of their elected representatives, those who elect the governments in Lebanon and Syria must take responsibility for the actions of the terrorists groups the elected governments allow to operate. Perhaps when the general population finally gets sick of being smacked around and living in squalor because some salamander with a Hezbollah/Hamas headband goes and makes an bellybutton of himself they'll get pissed off and deal with the salamanders. It seems some of the civilians are reaching that point now, and they're not blaming Israel, they're blaming the salamanders doing the kidnapping and other terrorist acts. We can only hope. And encourage them.
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I'll try to correct a few things and answer a few all at once:
Terrorism -
This is NOT a fight against terrorism. This is a despute between two countries because one is hosting a private army attacking the other. Israel doesn't care about Hizballa and doesn't need it destroyed or kill its leaders. All Israel demands is that Lebanon keep its border and prevent attacks comming from its territory.
The kidnapped soldiers -
This is NOT about getting the soldiers back, although it is part of the problem. It is about Hizballa setting up attacks every 2-3 months. I don't care if they only attack military targets (not always) this is still an attack on Israeli land across an international border. Any other country would also consider it an act of war. Lebanon is responsible to attacks comming from its land.
Un-proportional response -
Israel has been playing Hizballa's game for almost 6 years. They perform a "small" attack every 2-3 months, Israel retaliates by firing a little at Hizballa positions in S. Lebanon and wait for the next round. That is what "proportional response" means. The Lebanon goverment sits on its ass, in Beirut tourists are sun tanning and in N. Israel tourists run away.
This cycle had to be broken. No country will absorb attack after attack and keep quiet for ever. It can't be that Lebanon does not care what Hizballa is doing along its south border. After Hizballa started rocketing the northern settlements Israel decided to break the cycle and attacked back in force. This time Israel decided to claim the price from the landlord itself. If in Israel tourism is shut down, so will the tourism in Lebanon. If Israeli cities are attacked so will Beirut. Note that only the Hizballa area of the city was attacked after the civilians were warned of the attack by dropping fliers. Hizballa doesn't let us know where he's shotting its rockets.
Lebanonese should remember Niven Laws:
1. Never throw mud at an armed man.
2. Never stand next to a man who throws mud at an armed man.
I hear Lebanon has declared it will deploy its army in the south for a cease fire. I hope this ends soon (if only they did it 6 years earlier)
Bozon
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verry impresive,The Bekaa Valley war (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=14826) ,in 1982 ,JAF shoot down 83 syrian MIGs 21/23 and lost zero, was the largest airbattle in the modern jets history, i don't know if Syria would do better now
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Actually, it is possible that Hexbollah's tactics and policies may be back firing on them. It seems that many of the civilians who are paying the price for Hezbollah's actions are unhappy about it, and they're blaming the government for allowing Hezbollah to operate, and Hezbollah for pissing off Israel.
I saw something on the news where Arab nations were holding a conference and were ticked at Hezbollah. I didnt catch the whole segement, just the tail end. So it seems that not just the innocent civilians are getting ticked, it seems that the Arab world in general is getting ticked at Hezbollah, Hamas.
Bozon, I think this is at least, in part, a fight against terrorists. Doesnt Hezbollah fire rockets into Israeli cities from time to time in attacks that can be considered terror attacks? Isnt Hezbollah at least in part, a terrorist organization?
Regardless of the *details*, these attacks do indeed need to be stopped. Israel is a sovereign (sp?) nation who's borders have been repeatedly violated.
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Originally posted by ghi
verry impresive,The Bekaa Valley war (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=14826) ,in 1982 ,JAF shoot down 83 syrian MIGs 21/23 and lost zero, was the largest airbattle in the modern jets history, i don't know if Syria would do better now
Thanks for that link Ghi. I have never read a detailed account of the air battles over the Bekaa Valley before. Very interesting imo.
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Originally posted by Elfie
Due to political pressures I dont believe the US actually sent any military equipment to Israel while the Yom Kippur war was going on. The Yom Kippur War only lasted about 30 days, most of the Israeli tank losses were in the initial stages of the war. By the end of the war the majority of those tanks had been repaired and sent back into combat.
That is not in fact true, the US sent F4's during the Yom Kippur directly from USAF stocks. They were fairly obvious as they were seen flying in the current US camouflage colours. I would guess that F4's were not the only materiel sent.
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Originally posted by cpxxx
That is not in fact true, the US sent F4's during the Yom Kippur directly from USAF stocks. They were fairly obvious as they were seen flying in the current US camouflage colours. I would guess that F4's were not the only materiel sent.
Israel could have contracted to buy those planes and paid for them in advance of the war.
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Originally posted by cpxxx
That is not in fact true, the US sent F4's during the Yom Kippur directly from USAF stocks. They were fairly obvious as they were seen flying in the current US camouflage colours. I would guess that F4's were not the only materiel sent.
Both the Soviet Union and the USA were under political pressure to NOT supply either side with war material. My memory of the books I read could be incorrect as to whether or not Israel or it's Arab opponents actually recieved any replacements or not. It has been a number of years since I read those books.
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Originally posted by cpxxx
That is not in fact true, the US sent F4's during the Yom Kippur directly from USAF stocks.
Israel had F4s and A4s since 1970. Major consideration in arming Israel was that the Soviets were arming Egypt and Syria and the US considered it as part of the anti-soviet effort. Soviets even sent a squadron of pilots in 1970, but they left after loosing 5-0 in a big furball (20 mig 21, 4 F4s and 8 Mirages were involved).
The US did send quite a lot of arms during the war, mostly surplus from Vietnam. Actually, the first M16 I got has served in Vietnam (and that was in 93). By the time the shipments arrived the war has already turned, but it did give Israel some more breath.
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Originally posted by AWMac
Nilsen
You must adopt me soon before you open that bottle.... Did I mention that MY daughters name is Mia? Well Michelle, but she goes by Mia... she 24, stunningly attractive....
Don't open the bottle yet.
I can fax adoption papers and be on a jet in 1 hour.
Mac
Always wanted to see Norwie, Norweign.. watermelon Finnland.
sure.. ship the papers old mate ill fix that in a sec...
p.s. if you are trying to set me up with your daughter or use her as a ticket to get here then please send photos and other vital info. thank you
;)
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Lebanon has an economy? Manufacturing broken hearts and rubble?
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Originally posted by FiLtH
Manufacturing broken hearts and rubble?
Nice....
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Both Lebanon and Israel has a right to defend themselves.
Neither of them gets a thumbs-up from me.
Hizbolla started, but Israel responded way to harsh.
So Nilsen if terrorists on your borders claimed you did not have the right to exist, and repeatedly launched attacks against your people you would "What" smack them on their little pinkies?
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Considering Hizbollah holds 23 from the 128 seats in the Lebanese govt. Israel has every right to attack Lebanon.
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(http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/8031/pollcu2.gif)
the above from english-aljazz
link (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/1286D3D8-282D-48CE-B072-06064738C824.htm)
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Originally posted by xrtoronto
(http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/8031/pollcu2.gif)
the above from english-aljazz
link (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/1286D3D8-282D-48CE-B072-06064738C824.htm)
Funny, Hezbollah attacks Israel, and Syria backs Hezbollah, yet the U.S. is more culpable than Hezbollah and Syria. Of course, that is an AlJazeera poll. But Hell, it wouldn't surprise me if it were taken anywhere in the West.
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Hezbollah's attack didn't happen in a vacuum.
Some guys in the Gaza kidnap a couple of IDF guys.
Israel invades the Gaza strip.
Some Hexbollah guys kidnap and kill some IDF guys.
Israel invades Lebannon.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Israel could have contracted to buy those planes and paid for them in advance of the war.
"Operation Nickel Grass was a strategic airlift operation conducted by the United States to deliver weapons and supplies to Israel during the Yom Kippur War. The Military Airlift Command of the U.S. Air Force shipped 22,325 tons of tanks, artillery, ammunition, and supplies in C-141 Starlifter and C-5 Galaxy transport aircraft between October 12 and November 14, 1973. This rapid supply mission was critical to Israel's ability to recover from early losses in the war, and the operation is sometimes called "the airlift that saved Israel."
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Originally posted by Guppy35
"Operation Nickel Grass was a strategic airlift operation conducted by the United States to deliver weapons and supplies to Israel during the Yom Kippur War. The Military Airlift Command of the U.S. Air Force shipped 22,325 tons of tanks, artillery, ammunition, and supplies in C-141 Starlifter and C-5 Galaxy transport aircraft between October 12 and November 14, 1973. This rapid supply mission was critical to Israel's ability to recover from early losses in the war, and the operation is sometimes called "the airlift that saved Israel."
Thanks Dan, I stand corrected.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Hezbollah's attack didn't happen in a vacuum.
Some guys in the Gaza kidnap a couple of IDF guys.
Israel invades the Gaza strip.
Some Hexbollah guys kidnap and kill some IDF guys.
Israel invades Lebannon.
So, as even you state, Israel is attacked, defends itself, and is attacked AGAIN, from another direction, by another group, so Israel and the U.S. are seen to be at fault more than the attackers.
Thank you for FURTHER illustrating my point, as clearly as I ever could.
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Jesus H Christ.
Lebanon has allowed a private army, funded by Iran and getting support from Syria to operate along its southern border with Israel.
They mount terror attacks and other operations against Isreal with no interference fom Lebanon.
So ya, Isreal is going to hit back. No kidding.
I can just imagine some other country in N. America or Europe being attacked like that from across a border and being told "gee, its not our fault" as a response. I wonder how that would fly if Arizona started getting rockets fired at it from Mexico, and the Mexicans said "gee wiz, sorry, we just cant control them".
???
Either Lebanon deals with Hezbollah, or Israel will, makes sense to me.
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it was an Iranian missile fired with iran rev guard help that hit the Israeli ship ...
I think that may be remembered as one of the starter sparks of the world war unfolding before our eyes ...
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Originally posted by BTW
How about the massacre in the Ibrahimi Mosque in 1994?
A nut is a nut no matter what nationality.
Israeli Response:
*Goldstein's actions were immediately condemned by the Israeli government and the populace in general.
*Spokespeople for all of the organized denominations of Judaism denounced his act as immoral.
*The Kahane Chai party, to which Goldstein belonged, was outlawed by the Knesset.
*The cabinet agreed to take away the weapons of right-wing extremists and put them in administrative detention.
*The victims of the shooting received financial compensation from the Israeli government.[/b]
Yes, while it was a massacre, the reaction by Israel was a far cry from anything the militant Islams have done.
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Originally posted by Hawklore
Rip'em a new one Israel!
The US Govt. wouldn't care about 3 soldiers..
Unless they held super duper sec.... :confused:
That's sort of insulting to all the SAR guys in US service out there.
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Originally posted by Stang
What makes it worse is that they intentionally place their targets inside civilian centers so any attack unfortunately causes loss of innocent life. This has been a tactic for decades, and is coldly calculated for maximum impact on world opinion if Israel decides to strike against the Palestinians, Lebanese or anyone else.
It's sick, they put their own innocents in peril just to make Israel look bad on the international stage. And it looks like everyone's falling for it once again.
yep, but for some reason, you never really hear or read it reported that way ..
what I don't follow is the reporting that so many dead are civilians.. how do they know? besides the way too young (maybe < 12) and the way too old, do some have "Terrorist" tattooed on their forehead and the others don't?
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Thus far the Isrealis, according to the news, have appARENTLY killed a few dozen -100? civilians and not ONE single terrorist... wonder how that coud be:huh
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Thanks Dan, I stand corrected.
Me too. :D
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So... couch-warriors, how is the fightin goin on? Threw an empty beer can at your TV yet?
meh...
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The difference in the way Israelis fight and the terrorists is:
Collateran damage vs maximum civilian killings.
Been so for a looong time.
If you ponder on why the US have a little bit of a cold attitude vs Palestine, bear in mind that the people of Palestine were the first to rush out and burn the U.S. flag on 9/11
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Nilsen said:
Israel are killing civilians too
I simply won't let this pass. Almost all of the civilians were killed because they allow the terrorists to use their homes as base camps and meeting places. These homes therefore are legitimate targets and the "civilians" being killed are responsible for their own fate and that of their neighbors.
Nilsen, you can filter out facts like the above so you can avoid(like most European appeasing countries are) blaming the terrorists for this action, but I will not allow you to do that here.
The terrorists declare "open war". I laugh at this... it would be a welcome change from their skulking habits of launching missiles at civilian population centers with no military target in mind.
Go Israel! The destruction of Syria and Lebanon are long overdue... git 'er done! In the batter's box... Iran. (I hope)
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Unfortunately, many casualties are children, who are not "responsible for their own fate".
But...the terrorists use them as cover. What else was to be expected.
Anyway, what Nilsen pointed out was interesting. The ball is in the hands of the Libanese, - they could perhaps deal with this. While they don't, the Israelis will keep smacking them.
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Originally posted by Angus
Unfortunately, many casualties are children, who are not "responsible for their own fate".
But...the terrorists use them as cover. What else was to be expected.
Anyway, what Nilsen pointed out was interesting. The ball is in the hands of the Libanese, - they could perhaps deal with this. While they don't, the Israelis will keep smacking them.
how many accounts of arab/moslem terrorists grabbing israeli children/infants during incursions into israel and smashing there heads open would you like me to research and post for you? the arabs/moslems are a barbarous people and are very happy to commit atrocities. while the loss of possibly innocent lives is lamentable israel is doing the right thing. if the choice is between mourning in my house, or mourning in my enemy's, then by all means let it be his.
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I'm sure they nail nuns to barn doors too...
Tronsky
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Angus:
Anyone deliberately dropping a 500lb bomb in an inhabited city is ipso facto deliberately targeting civilians.
"Collateral damage" is nothing more than a nice, sanitized, insipid, feel-good PR way of covering up that fact — a prime example of what Orwell was on about when he said: "The great enemy of clear language is insincerity. When there is a gap between one's real and one's declared aims, one turns, as it were, instinctively to long words and exhausted idioms, like a cuttlefish squirting out ink."
It's declared aim will always be to destroy a "terrorist leader" or "military infrastructure" or "supply routes" or "terrorist assets", but the real aim of a 500lb bomb is to indiscriminately destroy, kill or maim everything and everyone in it's blast radius. A 500lb bomb has an 50% kill rate at a radius of 60m, and an accuracy of about 9m from target. If you put that blast radius in a city, you will kill civilians; ergo by deliberately using a 500lb bomb, you are deliberately killing civilians. And all the feel-good PR in the world won't change that.
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"the arabs/moslems are a barbarous people and are very happy to commit atrocities."
That is a bit simple. There are many kinds of Moslems and many kinds of Arabs.
In WW2 there were many kinds of Germans and many kinds of Russians.
In the Christian world we also have many kinds of people, - including those who bomb and terrorise in the name of their religion.
There are also many kinds of Israelis.
But, I don't really blame them for what their doing. They've been attacked over and over, over the years, and every time responded with victory and a little expansion. So, what is there to be expected when the neighbour hosts attackers that target civilians? Some action, of course.
And Dead: what would you do?
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Just curious, what're the alternatives?
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Originally posted by Angus
"the arabs/moslems are a barbarous people and are very happy to commit atrocities."
That is a bit simple. There are many kinds of Moslems and many kinds of Arabs.
In WW2 there were many kinds of Germans and many kinds of Russians.
In the Christian world we also have many kinds of people, - including those who bomb and terrorise in the name of their religion.
There are also many kinds of Israelis.
But, I don't really blame them for what their doing. They've been attacked over and over, over the years, and every time responded with victory and a little expansion. So, what is there to be expected when the neighbour hosts attackers that target civilians? Some action, of course.
And Dead: what would you do?
If I was Israeli? Move, and ditch the citizenship to avoid conscription/taxes/get a new passport if needed.
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Looser :D
And if you weren't Israeli, but something similar was happening?
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Originally posted by Angus
Looser :D
And if you weren't Israeli, but something similar was happening?
Exactly the same answer applies. The actual country or nationality I "belong to" is unimportant to me: I base it purely on convenience. If membership of a country becomes personally inconvenient, ditch it and go with another. Brand loyalty is strictly for mugs. See also credit cards, ISPs, telephone providers, religions, clubs, etc. etc.
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^^ 100% with -dead- here.
<>> I run that way
countries, shmountries... couldn't care less.
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Originally posted by -dead-
Exactly the same answer applies. The actual country or nationality I "belong to" is unimportant to me: I base it purely on convenience. If membership of a country becomes personally inconvenient, ditch it and go with another. Brand loyalty is strictly for mugs. See also credit cards, ISPs, telephone providers, religions, clubs, etc. etc.
No wonder your nick is "Dead", - you're saying Brand loyalty is strictly for mugs so you submit to thugs
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Originally posted by Angus
No wonder your nick is "Dead", - you're saying Brand loyalty is strictly for mugs so you submit to thugs
No, I say side-step the thugs, as irrelevant; but I'd rather submit to thugs than become one myself, which is what you advocate.
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Originally posted by Saintaw
^^ 100% with -dead- here.
<>> I run that way
countries, shmountries... couldn't care less.
Maybe I'm missing something but that sounds like a pretty limited perspective. Are you saying you'd be fine living in Saudi Arabia under Shira law?
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Originally posted by lukster
Maybe I'm missing something but that sounds like a pretty limited perspective. Are you saying you'd be fine living in Saudi Arabia under Shira law?
More your sort of scene I would have thought -- desert, oil, high-levels of capital punishment, religious nuts running the show. Sounds like Texas to me. ;)
Seriously, though: if the cash was right - why not?
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Dear Lurkster,
At the age of 12, I had already lived in four different countries (3 continents), I pretty much kept the same pace the rest of my life. I realy couldn't care less of political lines marked in the ground.
I go where the money/opportunity is. If they have to start throwing punches for a piece of desert/jungle/riviera... let'em have it, without me.
Edit: Haven't been in SA, but I was in Barhein for a while. Hotels look the same everywhere. (They actualy look better over there)
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No, he says he would move from there too, as would I. I like having a job, food on my table, an internet connection, and enough freedom to do whatever I reasonably fancy.
I won't stay a minute where I can't get that safely. Others can stay and die for their flag,king,country or whatever as they please. Anyone living in the ME having the chance of going to Europe or the USA is too brave for his own good.
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Originally posted by -dead-
More your sort of scene I would have thought -- desert, oil, high-levels of capital punishment, religious nuts running the show. Sounds like Texas to me. ;)
Seriously, though: if the cash was right - why not?
Why not? Provided you don't enjoy a beer or sex outside of marriage or freedom of religion or many other things typically allowed by less restrictive societies then indeed, why not?
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Originally posted by takeda
No, he says he would move from there too, as would I. I like having a job, food on my table, an internet connection, and enough freedom to do whatever I reasonably fancy.
I won't stay a minute where I can't get that safely. Others can stay and die for their flag,king,country or whatever as they please. Anyone living in the ME having the chance of going to Europe or the USA is too brave for his own good.
Lemme see if I'm understanding you guys right? So long as there is a place where you can have your freedoms and enjoy a relatively prosperous life you're willing to let someone else provide it or defend it from those who would take it away? Is that it?
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Originally posted by lukster
Why not? Provided you don't enjoy a beer or sex outside of marriage or freedom of religion or many other things typically allowed by less restrictive societies then indeed, why not?
OK I'm married, firmly convinced (and often daily reminded) that all religions are silly, and can take or leave beer. So yet again - if the money's right: why not?
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Originally posted by -dead-
OK I'm married, firmly convinced (and often daily reminded) that all religions are silly, and can take or leave beer. So yet again - if the money's right: why not?
I hear the money can be good there so what're ya waitng for?
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I'm pretty much wondering why my thread was locked & this nearly identical one has been left open. That BS aside; I'll copy & paste what I said in my opening post in the locked thread.
"I hope all our Israeli members are able to come through this most recent conflict without any personal tragedies. Good luck Israel, strike swiftly, strike hard & don't back down. Your enemies are nothing but terrorsists & terorist supporters."
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So lukster, you sign up with the IDF yet?
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Originally posted by Thrawn
So lukster, you sign up with the IDF yet?
I'm retired USAF. Even if i weren't too old I think the USAF would frown on me joining a foreign service. Why do you ask?
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Originally posted by Brenjen
"I hope all our Israeli members are able to come through this most recent conflict without any personal tragedies. Good luck Israel, strike swiftly, strike hard & don't back down. Your enemies are nothing but terrorsists & terorist supporters."
and the sooner they drag Syria and Iran into it the better .. time to take out the trash .. Go Israel!
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back to the topic..
there`s something different about this current war (skirmish, bloodshed). i might be wrong, but this time israel gets way more support from the rest of the world than in the past. i think people finally start to understand what`s going on, what we have to deal here with.
i remember arguing on this very bbs for the case of israel at the time the idf was fighting the battle of "jeningrad" (arafat`s brainchild). i was pretty much ganged up on. now much more take our side, and less call our actions unjustified.
anyways...
just watched a press conference where the head of the iaf showed films of hits in lebanon. huge secondary explosions, trails of rockets from launchsites before the hit, and a misfire wich fell back on beirut. that was the one that looked like a downed airplane.
mind u that these sites were all in residential areas. that`s where they set them up intentionally. that is just how they go about their business.
i like what my government is doing to secure our life. period.
btw i live in tel aviv, life here hasn`t changed. no air raid sirens, no attacks.
in jerusalem a would be suicide bomber was caught today.
life goes on.....
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Originally posted by lukster
I'm retired USAF. Even if i weren't too old I think the USAF would frown on me joining a foreign service. Why do you ask?
Because I'm amazingly ticked off at some of the comments made in this thread and you were the first target I picked. But really it's not you per se but the just a general attitude and inanity, I offer my apologies.
"and the sooner they drag Syria and Iran into it the better .. time to take out the trash .. Go Israel!"
This is probably demonstrates it the best. Whoo-hoo, let's hope the war escalates. People seem to forget the simple fact that war is bad. Some trash may die, but also simple human beings with families and friends that just want to be left alone to live thier lives are also dying. And when a war escalates more and more die.
Then there is the seemingly obvious fact (if one where to bother looking at a map) that Iran and Israel can't go to war...at least without dragging Iraq into it and that simply isn't going to happen.
And how the hell would Israel occupy Lebanon, Syria and Iran. They simply can't. They've already tried occupying southern Lebanon and they can't. Fourth generation warfare is a *****.
It seems that even after the example of Iraq people still think short-term/invasion. Who cares if you win the invasion? It's the occupation, if you don't win that then a bunch of people just died for no damn good reason.
As Gerry Brecher likes to say, war is just demographics in a hurry. Let's look at some.
Israel
Population: 6,352,117
Birth rate: 17.97 births/1,000 population (2006 est.)
Births per year: 113,829
Iran
Population: 68,688,433 (July 2006 est.)
Birth rate: 17 births/1,000 population (2006 est.)
Births per year: 1,167,703
Lebanon
Population: 3,874,050 (July 2006 est.)
Birth rate: 18.52 births/1,000 population (2006 est.)
Births per year: 33,007
Syria
Population: 18,881,361
Birth rate: 27.76 births/1,000 population (2006 est.)
Births per year: 524,147
So 113,829 births a year for Israel verses 1,724,857 for Lebanon, Syria, and Iran. And that isn't even including the Palistinians. Israel isn't and can't win.
Cripes, and this doesn't even touch on the economics.
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who said anything about an invasion? bomb them into submission
I am for a peaceful resolution, just don't see that happening so I want all the players to come to the table, not hide behind their thugs and throw punches .. stand up front and fight themselves
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Originally posted by Eagler
who said anything about an invasion? bomb them into submission
I am for a peaceful resolution, just don't see that happening so I want all the players to come to the table, not hide behind their thugs and throw punches .. stand up front and fight themselves
...said the guy that is wants the Israel to fight Syria, Lebanon and Iran because he wants the trash taken out.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Its just that every time civilians are hurt then the pity always falls on those that are you "our/your" side but those on the "other" side are just inevetable casualties of war.
I feel sorry for the civilians who must die in this war, as they always have died in other wars. The ones I feel the most sympathy for are the ones who are actually the targets. I certainly feel sorrier for them than the ones who live in an apartment next door to a rocket-launcher.
But to consider your words, you may be right to some degree, I don't feel a lot of pity for the civilians who died in the Tokyo fire-raids, or Dresden/Berlin either...and they WERE the targets back then.
Also, while it is true that not all Muslims are terrorists, the overwhelming majority of terrorists are Muslim. The world would truly be a better/safer place without Islam.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
...said the guy that is wants the Israel to fight Syria, Lebanon and Iran because he wants the trash taken out.
hope we, the US, stand side by side with Israel .. do you? what side do you choose?
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Originally posted by Eagler
hope we, the US, stand side by side with Israel
What the hell does that even mean? You hope that your government will send the US military to fight with Israel? Unless you are in the military that I don't see how you standing beside anyone. You would want your government to send guys that swore to defend the US Constitution to go die for what is probably just next cycle that is violence in the middle east.
If it is the case, do you really want the US to occupy yet more countries. All it takes to destroy an empire (or hegemony) is one invasion too many.
.. do you? what side do you choose?
False dilema, I don't chose either. It takes two to tango. Israel has been acting in bad faith for decades, as has it's neighbours. Israel is certainly no ally of Canada's and neither are it's neighbours. I feel no compulsion to support either side for either moral or realpolitik reasons.
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This just in:
Red Alert: A Diplomatic Interlude
There is increasing discussion of a cease-fire between Israel and Lebanon. French Prime Minister Dominic de Villepin is in Beirut to discuss it. The Israelis say they are talking to the Italians about it, and even the Iranians have said that they favor a cease-fire. Iranian Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki said today, "A reasonable and just solution must be found to end this crisis. A cease-fire and then a swap is achievable." That is quite a distance for the Iranians to have gone.
Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert listed three demands for a cease-fire: first, the release of captured soldiers; second, an end to rocket attacks on Israel; and third, the deployment of Lebanese Army troops along the Israeli-Lebanese border. Other diplomats have been talking about an international force along the border.
The first two demands can easily be met. It is the third one that will be the sticking point because it goes to the heart of the issue. When Israel talks of the Lebanese Army being deployed there, it is saying two things. The first is that it doesn't trust an international force containing troops from countries like Russia and France. It does not believe they will be neutral. Second, if a Lebanese force is deployed, it must be able to impose its will on Hezbollah, through military action if possible.
The problem is that the Lebanese Army is not in a position, politically or militarily, to control Hezbollah. If it could do so, it would have. Moreover, if the army were able to impose its will, Hezbollah would cease to be an effective group. Hezbollah's power comes from its military capabilities and autonomy. Israel's demand would represent the end of Hezbollah in its current form. Israel does not trust a suspension of Hezbollah attacks; they believe the militants will strike again unless someone can guarantee otherwise. Israel's call for a Lebanese force that can impose its will on Hezbollah is a contradiction in terms. It is an offer of a cease-fire that can't be delivered.
Israel is, however, interested in continuing the diplomatic process. Its reasoning can be seen from reports Stratfor has received from sources close to Hezbollah. They have said that Hezbollah is maintaining its attacks on Israel because the militants want Israel to attack them on the ground sooner rather than later. Over time, they fear, Hezbollah's ability to resist Israeli attack will be undermined by airstrikes. The militants' command and control, communications, weapons stockpiles and morale will be undermined. On the other hand, if Israel were to attack now, Hezbollah's leadership is confident that it could impose losses on Israeli troops that would be unacceptable. That is what the militants want to achieve -- they want to engage Israel as the first Arab force that, even if it can't win in the end, can severely damage the Israel Defense Forces.
If that is actually Hezbollah's thinking -- and that would explain their behavior -- then we can also better understand Israeli thinking. If the airstrikes are hurting Hezbollah's morale and infrastructure, there is no reason to hurry in on the ground. It makes more sense to let the current situation continue even if it means further attacks on Israeli targets. In the meantime, Tel Aviv can engage in diplomatic initiatives that will reposition Israel in the international system. Rather than resisting diplomatic efforts, Israel is participating, setting demands that appear extremely reasonable while being unattainable. While that game goes on, so does the air war and the undermining of Hezbollah's core strength.
The problem is that Hezbollah can see this happening. That means it must try to increase its attacks to create a political crisis in Israel. Olmert is under a microscope. There is suspicion that he will be sucked into a diplomatic solution that will not only not deal with the Hezbollah threat, but also make it impossible to attack the militants later if they resume attacks. In this scenario, an international presence is forced on Israel, Hezbollah resumes attacks without the international force taking decisive action, and Israel is forced to either do nothing or attack through the international force.
In other words, there is a trap for Israel in all of this. If it gets too clever on the diplomatic side, it can wind up in trouble. On the other hand, a diplomatic process gives Israel time to do what Hezbollah wants least: an air war designed to impose attrition on them.
We have not expected the Israelis to accept bombardment for as long as they have. However, if Hezbollah's view is correct, it is good military strategy and the Israeli public will accept that. It may force Hezbollah to make serious concessions under pressure to preserve the cohesiveness of its force. But if the diplomatic game results in extended attacks on Israel without action, or results in a cease-fire that does not preclude a resumption of attacks, then Olmert will come under dramatic pressure and will lose his room for maneuver.
Olmert knows this, of course. He has managed the internal politics skillfully to this point. He can probably play diplomatic games for another 48 hours by implying military necessity to his Cabinet. But then it starts to become very dicey politically. And by then, Hezbollah's attacks will have become intolerable, and attacking -- whatever the condition of Hezbollah -- will become essential.
Neither an international force nor the Lebanese Army (with its current capabilities) protecting Israel from Hezbollah attacks will fly in Israel.
Send questions or comments on this article to analysis@stratfor.com.
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Outstanding!
"To jaw-jaw is always better than to war-war."
- Winston Churchill
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was wondering when you'd play the "you aren't in the military card" so you can't state you want your country to defend you and yours.
I am not a cop or a fireman but I want them to do their jobs and protect my family. Should I not think that either?
wtg Thrawn! you're just another lefty hand wringler LOL
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Originally posted by Eagler
was wondering when you'd play the "you aren't in the military card" so you can't state you want your country to defend you and yours.
Uh no, I don't think it's right to ask your military to defend them and theirs.
PS:
"wtg Thrawn! you're just another lefty hand wringler LOL"
Yet your the one who wants to blow other peoples tax dollars to support a war they might not argee with. I'm so capitalist I make you look like Lenin, and if the thought of a war escalating doesn't make one wring their hands I don't know what the hell does.
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this war saves Bush's imagine, is a diversion of the public atention from the civil war in Iraq, more peoples die in Iraq daily than Israel/Liban, but 99% of the News are talking mostly about Israel/Liban
Yahoo news today:
""BAGHDAD, Iraq - Gunmen sprayed grenades and automatic weapons fire in a market south of Baghdad on Monday, killing at least 50 people, mostly *****es. The sectarian attack drew an angry protest from lawmakers who accused Iraqi forces of standing idly by during the rampage.
ADVERTISEMENT
Women and children were among the dead and wounded in the assault in Mahmoudiya, hospital officials said. Late Monday, police said they found 12 bodies in different parts of town — possible victims of reprisal killings..."
"
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Thrawn said:
Israel has been acting in bad faith for decades,
really? example please.
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Originally posted by -dead-
Move, and ditch the citizenship to avoid conscription/taxes/get a new passport if needed.
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I wonder if USA will fully support TAIWAN as they do with ISRAEL if CHINA decides to Annex Taiwan in the future...
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Originally posted by 1K3
I wonder if USA will fully support TAIWAN as they do with ISRAEL if CHINA decides to Annex Taiwan in the future...
Thats a pretty scary proposition, even more so due to the plausibility of it becoming reality. My instinct tells me I don't care as much since we are currently engaged in a real shooting war of our own with the exact same enemy as Israel is fighting and not the Chinese, that a war between Taiwan and China just has to be given a lower priority. Then I dislike myself for feeling that way. Maybe we can trade Taiwan for NK, now I really dislike myself. Where's my beer?
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They've already tried occupying southern Lebanon and they can't.
How many years did Israel occupy southern Lebanon? 18 or so? I think they have showed they can in fact occupy southern Lebanon if they so choose.
Imo, Israel, just like the majority of us, wants to live in peace. If only others would allow them to do so. /sigh
And.....how has Israel acted in bad faith for decades?
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Originally posted by PonyDriver
Thrawn said:
really? example please.
The settlements, specifically the west bank. In 1972 there where 800 Israelis living there. By 1993, 115,000. That has number has doubled. How the hell can a country say they are negotiating in good faith while they flood the land of the people they are negotiating with with settlers?
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Originally posted by Thrawn
The settlements, specifically the west bank. In 1972 there where 800 Israelis living there. By 1993, 115,000. That has number has doubled. How the hell can a country say they are negotiating in good faith while they flood the land of the people they are negotiating with with settlers?
Unless some agreement had been negotiated that would have precluded Israel from allowing settlers in the West Bank, I dont think that is *bad faith*.
If an agreement had been negotiated, but the other side didnt uphold their end of the agreement, I dont expect Israel to uphold its end either.
I really dont know what, if any agreements may have been reached. I dont think it's bad faith for a country to settle land they have occupied via conquest though.
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Originally posted by Elfie
How many years did Israel occupy southern Lebanon? 18 or so? I think they have showed they can in fact occupy southern Lebanon if they so choose.
They can, in fact, do exactly that but in the long term the costs outweigh the benefits. I mean they exposed thier soldiers to suicide bombers and other insurgency tactics on Hezbollah's home territory and what they hell did it change? Not only that but there are the economic costs and all they got was a piece of **** blasted landscape. At least the US is getting first dibs on Iraqi oil.
Imo, Israel, just like the majority of us, wants to live in peace. If only others would allow them to do so. /sigh
Yes, as do the majority of Palistinians.
I dont think it's bad faith for a country to settle land they have occupied via conquest though.
Maybe not, but it is if they are trying to negociate a peace with the people whose land it is.
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Maybe not, but it is if they are trying to negociate a peace with the people whose land it is.
I'm not sure that the Palestinian leadership wants peace. I'd make a pretty big wager that what they want is ALL of Palestine.
Israel removed the settlers from the Sinai quite some time ago. Now the settlers are gone from the Gaza Strip. Israel's removal of the settlers from those 2 areas shows me they would be willing to remove them from the West Bank also if needed. I dont think that is bad faith, but thats just me. :)
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Thrawn:
"So 113,829 births a year for Israel verses 1,724,857 for Lebanon, Syria, and Iran. And that isn't even including the Palistinians. Israel isn't and can't win.
Cripes, and this doesn't even touch on the economics."
Some things FYI.
The economical system of the 11 arab countries with 250 million+ inhabitants (same size as the US) is AFAIK about the size of the one in Spain.
Syria fought with Israel, so did Egypt, Israels enemies have been helping each other out economically as well without any gain. Israel has friends too you see, so maybe you should add the economy and birth rate of the USA and UK etc....
And for Palestine, - I think there will never be peace while the Palestinians do not recognize Israel as a state, and are fuelled up in that opinion by that avacado in Iran :D
Maybe that's just me though...
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I'd make a pretty big wager that what they want is ALL of Palestine.
Just what is all of Palestine? There has never been, in the history of man, a country of Palenstine.
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Just what is all of Palestine? There has never been, in the history of man, a country of Palenstine.
There has been one called Palestine, though. See for example the first British Mandate report to the LoN, which began:
" When General Allenby's army swept over Palestine, in a campaign as brilliant and decisive as any recorded in history, it occupied a country exhausted by war."
Israel removed the settlers from the Sinai quite some time ago. Now the settlers are gone from the Gaza Strip. Israel's removal of the settlers from those 2 areas shows me they would be willing to remove them from the West Bank also if needed.
Sinai and Gaza between them amounted to less than 20,000 settlers. The West Bank has about 450,000 (inc east Jerusalem)
The other difference is that Sinai and Gaza were not part of biblical Israel. The religious connection with them was nowhere near as strong.
Unless some agreement had been negotiated that would have precluded Israel from allowing settlers in the West Bank, I dont think that is *bad faith*.
The Oslo accords committed Israel to recognise the teritorial intergrity of the West Bank and Gaza, and to a final status agreement withing 5 years. Settlement more than doubled after the Oslo accords were signed.
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when the other side states that your countrymen should all drown in the sea, I think that has a negative effect on any "negotiations" with their "leaders"
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Originally posted by Elfie
I dont think it's bad faith for a country to settle land they have occupied via conquest though.
Through conquest in wars they did not start. I think that is an important point.
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Unfortunatly it is too long discussion to read. But I have several words to add....
What would US do if every day missiles were falling on NY from Cuba, and killing 20-30 people every day and all the east part of US were sitting in shelters?
What would US do to Cuba? Interesting.....
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Originally posted by straffo
4- Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users and HTC. Flaming or abusing users is not tolerated.
laters
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Lazs:
5- Flamebaiting, trolling, or posting to incite or annoy is not allowed.
Well, Libya manage to lob a rocket at Italy once. Well, Italy is in Nato or?
So, Nato struck AFAIK, From Britain. It was a co-effort RAF and USAF?
Oh dear, bear in mind that the Brits are 0-peeean country.
And the U.S. is US?
Please mind your delicate line of being rude dude....
Anyway, you have a another point. Israel has recently had some 1.200 missiles lobbed at civilian areas, from Lebanon. Imagine the US getting hit with 1200 missiles from Mexico, those mostly aimed at civilian areas while the Mexican army stands idly by....Well, it's just the dissidents who pretend to have Texas you see.....
I guess you'd hit them on the nose ;)
Finally....what do the Russians do as well.....after all they're just another "0-peeean country "
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Originally posted by -dead-
No, I say side-step the thugs, as irrelevant; but I'd rather submit to thugs than become one myself, which is what you advocate.
Dead, there is a long way between a thug and submission.
With enough people in one country who share your view, say in Britain and the USA in the 30's (and there were many), we'd have had Hitler and Tojo as the world bosses. Nice.
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Originally posted by lazs2
5- Flamebaiting, trolling, or posting to incite or annoy is not allowed.
Lazs, Whom have you condemned? Or which anti-american anti-semite have you condemned?
hap
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Originally posted by DiabloTX
Israeli Response:
*Goldstein's actions were immediately condemned by the Israeli government and the populace in general.
*Spokespeople for all of the organized denominations of Judaism denounced his act as immoral.
*The Kahane Chai party, to which Goldstein belonged, was outlawed by the Knesset.
*The cabinet agreed to take away the weapons of right-wing extremists and put them in administrative detention.
*The victims of the shooting received financial compensation from the Israeli government.
Yes, while it was a massacre, the reaction by Israel was a far cry from anything the militant Islams have done. [/B]
Oh I know - but the initial question seemed to be whether or not there had been Israeli terrorism. I know it isn't state sponsored or common, but it has happened.
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Ah, now I-C.
hap
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war can bring very good things
If you can Read Miliatry History Quartley
The Utlity of War by Victor Davis Hanson
Excellent article
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Originally posted by Angus
Dead, there is a long way between a thug and submission.
With enough people in one country who share your view, say in Britain and the USA in the 30's (and there were many), we'd have had Hitler and Tojo as the world bosses. Nice.
Not sure I quite understand the first bit, but to try to answer: if you don't submit, and you do resist with force of arms then you become a thug. This assertion is based on your initial point, that deliberately target civilians is OK, if you're the correct nationality and come up with a suitably occult euphemism for it that sounds nicer in polite conversation and press conferences.
As to the hypothetical scale-ups of -dead-: You're overlooking the fact that if enough people shared my view in Japan and Germany in the 1930's, there wouldn't have been any fighting at all. It's no small coincidence that bad guys in Germany, Italy and Japan were all nationalists. It was died-in-the-wool patriots prepared to fight and die for their countries that started those wars. It usually is.
So much for that hypothetical scale-up.
As it is, what will probably happen is the whole drama will play out the same as it has in the past: the killing will go on for a bit, lots of civilians will die, then Israel will release some Hezbollah prisoners in exchange for the 2 soldiers. Unesay peace follows, with sporadic border disputes (of which this could have been one). Submission accomplished.
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If you are a civilian in a country that is at war.... you will have to expect that your life will be in peril.
If you stay in a house that is say.... a rocket factory in the basement.... you will escalate your peril.
If you work in a factory that builds said rockets or components... this might also escalate your peril. You have choices. You can give up everything and try to beat feet. Not allways possible and sometimes bringing it's own dangers but... you can try.
You can move away from obvious target areas... You can have a revolution..
You have choices.
probly the most bizzare choice tho would be to make car bombs and blow up civilians or target civilians to strike terror in the population. Or.. shoot up crowds or blow yourself up in a crowd.
lazs
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Originally posted by 1K3
I wonder if USA will fully support TAIWAN as they do with ISRAEL if CHINA decides to Annex Taiwan in the future...
An interesting topic - but one for another thread. My answer though would be "not likely".
For the PRC's part, US involvement = meddling in the internal affairs of the PRC = war with the US. That's non-negotiable for the PRC. They're real stubborn about that.
The problem for the US (aside from the heavier casualties and the risk of nuclear war) is paying for said war, especially without the PRC buying up US debt, and no doubt flooding the market with the debt they've already bought. All in all, I think Taiwan isn't worth it for the US, and the US knows it: after all the US doesn't give a hoot if Taiwan is a democracy or not, (Taiwan has spent most of it's life as a military dictatorship with the US' blessing), it's all about cash and strategic control, and Taiwan just isn't that much of a prize for the US (no bases, small military budget, no oil); for the PRC, it's a question of face and national pride.
But I also think the PRC would much rather buy Taiwan than invade it. And that's what their doing at the moment.
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Dead: Get this here...and as a bonus for all surprize I will quote Lazs in such a way that I agree with him:
"If you stay in a house that is say.... a rocket factory in the basement.... you will escalate your peril."
There Lasz basically answers what I wanted to. There is no way to target those who hide within women and children, preferably with stocks of them over the basement. So TY Lazs :aok
So, there is just a question of...
1: Submit to the basement thug (Ignore is there too)
2: Try to fight the basement thug with minimum collateral damage.
3: Go full war on the basement thug with full broadside
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Originally posted by PonyDriver
Just what is all of Palestine? There has never been, in the history of man, a country of Palenstine.
There have been maps posted on this board before showing what is now Israel, as Palestine.
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The Oslo accords committed Israel to recognise the teritorial intergrity of the West Bank and Gaza, and to a final status agreement withing 5 years. Settlement more than doubled after the Oslo accords were signed.
Ths Oslo Accords left the settlements issue to be decided at a later date.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Accords
In essence, the accords call for the withdrawal of Israeli forces from parts of the Gaza Strip and West Bank and affirm the Palestinian right to self-government within those areas through the creation of the Palestinian Authority. Palestinian rule would last for a five year interim period during which a permanent agreement would be negotiated (beginning not later than May 1996). Permanent issues such as Jerusalem, refugees, Israeli settlements in the area, security and borders were deliberately excluded from the Accords and left to be decided. The interim self-government was to be granted in phases.
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They can, in fact, do exactly that but in the long term the costs outweigh the benefits. I mean they exposed thier soldiers to suicide bombers and other insurgency tactics on Hezbollah's home territory and what they hell did it change? Not only that but there are the economic costs and all they got was a piece of **** blasted landscape. At least the US is getting first dibs on Iraqi oil.
For 18 or so years Israel's occupation of southern Lebanon kept the PLO (and other terrorists) from shelling northern Israel with rockets and artillery. It provided a buffer zone to help ensure the safety of Israeli citizens.
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Originally posted by Edbert1
Through conquest in wars they did not start. I think that is an important point.
That depends on your point of view really. In 1967 (the 6 Day War) Israel, knowing she was about to be attacked by Egypt, Syria and Jordan launched a pre-emptive strike and in 6 days captured the Sinai, Gaza Strip, Golan Heights and the West Bank.
Some will say that because Israel is the one that physically attacked first, that they started the 6 Day War. Imo.....if you know, beyond any reasonable doubt that you are about to be attacked, and strike first....you are still NOT the aggressor. Others though, will have a different view.
*edit* My apologies folks, I got a bit behind on this thread and had some catching up to do. :)
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Originally posted by Angus
Dead: Get this here...and as a bonus for all surprize I will quote Lazs in such a way that I agree with him:
"If you stay in a house that is say.... a rocket factory in the basement.... you will escalate your peril."
There Lasz basically answers what I wanted to. There is no way to target those who hide within women and children, preferably with stocks of them over the basement. So TY Lazs :aok
So, there is just a question of...
1: Submit to the basement thug (Ignore is there too)
2: Try to fight the basement thug with minimum collateral damage.
3: Go full war on the basement thug with full broadside
Good to see you're still using the PR PC euphemism "collateral damage" for killing civilians.
It's a nice new justification, but sadly the end result is still that options 2 & 3 deliberate target civilians. In essence, all you're saying is that you think some things are worth killing civilians for. And that means you too are the basement thug, ready to kill civilians in order to achieve your goal. Both thugs feel fully justified in killing these civilians, because their purpose, their goal is more important than these civilians' lives. The only way to tell the two thugs apart is their efficiency. Thugs with jets always kill more civilians than the thugs without.
The above scenario of the basement rocket factory etc is of course hypothetical and therefore rather ideal - real life is usually a lot more dodgy - there's a lot of bombing of civilians going on without the flimsy moral cover of said rocket factory, or any Hizbollah involvement. Some of it looks as downright deliberate as Hizbollah.
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Originally posted by -dead-
Good to see you're still using the PR PC euphemism "collateral damage" for killing civilians.
It's a nice new justification, but sadly the end result is still that options 2 & 3 deliberate(ly) target civilians. In essence, all you're saying is that you think some things are worth killing civilians for.
No, you deliberately target the thugs.
A police sniper in a hostage situation might take the shot to try to kill the hostage taker even though there is a chance the hostage would be hurt or killed. If the hostage is killed it is unintententional. The intent was to kill the criminal and save the hostage.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
No, you deliberately target the thugs.
A police sniper in a hostage situation might take the shot to try to kill the hostage taker even though there is a chance the hostage would be hurt or killed. If the hostage is killed it is unintententional. The intent was to kill the criminal and save the hostage.
Try running that example using the actual weapons involved: using a 500lb bomb instead of a sniper rifle, you are deliberately targeting the hostages and anybody else who happens to be in a 60-80m radius as well. It is no longer their unintentional killing, due to the choice of weapon. Deliberately using a bomb can only mean you intend to kill the hostages too, ergo you too are a thug.
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Originally posted by -dead-
Try running that example using the actual weapons involved: using a 500lb bomb instead of a sniper rifle, you are deliberately targeting the hostages and anybody else who happens to be in a 60-80m radius as well. It is no longer their unintentional killing, due to the choice of weapon. Deliberately using a bomb can only mean you intend to kill the hostages too, ergo you too are a thug.
war sucks.
If you place yourself, and your family in harms way, you should probably expect them to be harmed.
Using civilians as a shield should not prevent the military from taking you out. The death of the civilans is regretable, but it is not the military's fault.
Civilians USED to be a target not too long ago. I don't even wanna' think how many civilians died in WW2, and make no mistake, they were the targets.
The death of the innocent should be avoided at all costs, as should war period. But if you HAVE to fight, use all your resolve, fight as hard as you can, and don't hold back. Win at all costs.
war really does suck though.
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Civilians who live in close proximity to insurgents/thugs, share in their guilt, in PC speak they are Enablers, just like the guy that buys drugs for an addict. If they live there in-voluntarily, they are hostages, and should be rescued, but in the words of a SEAL bud of mine, "***** to be a hostage". "Breakage" happens, no one wants it (except maybe the thugs who count on it for protection), but neither should a thug be allowed to hide using the population as cover. In medical terms, if the infection is not removed the patient dies.
I don't like it but I understand i real well.... BTDT.........
Gunns
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Originally posted by -dead-
Try running that example using the actual weapons involved: using a 500lb bomb instead of a sniper rifle, you are deliberately targeting the hostages and anybody else who happens to be in a 60-80m radius as well. It is no longer their unintentional killing, due to the choice of weapon. Deliberately using a bomb can only mean you intend to kill the hostages too, ergo you too are a thug.
Okay, so ethical standards are based upon the firepower involved.
If I kill one innocent by a misdirected munition, I am ok, if I kill what 5..? am I then a thug?
The Russians pumped sleeping gas into a theater and ended up killing a few score. Not intended, but I guess that was thuggary.
Buy my measure, it was a valiant effort gone awry.
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It is ok to destroy infrastructure that enables terrorist movements and operations even if it also hurts innocent civilian population?
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Some innocents dead today vs. many dead over a long period; opportunity cost.
But then who knows if the Israelian region really would manage not to get itself back into a bloody bickering rut again, even if Israel's offensive somehow perfectly satisfies all its immediate goals with no collateral damage to anything living or not.
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If US citisens would have been under bombing during WW2 I think US peoples thinking would be a little different..... Compare euro vs US thinking about similar matters in this BBS. Experiences affect point of view.
Personally my thinking goes like this:
1. why Jews had to go there in the first place anyway..? Or did all european countries just continue what Adolf did with nicer methods-> resulting all Jews kicked out of our continent..
2. well , now that theyre there they should even try to live with their neighbours. If they had acted a little more peacefully and not responded to every threat and crosseyed look with bombs and bullets, they would prolly have peace there..or not. Holocaust card has been exhausted by now as civilians are killed en masses, and look who is doing mostly the killing.
But if this situation escalates I would like to close all borders around Middle east and let them sort it out themselves.... at least we MIGHT have some peace around there for a while.. (and I dont give a rubber dog$h1t who wins...)
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my guess is that a very high percentage of weapons fired by Israel are laser guided
the same cannot be said for the hezaboobs fire and forget targeting
now who are the "thugs" again?
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Originally posted by Eagler
my guess is that a very high percentage of weapons fired by Israel are laser guided
the same cannot be said for the hezaboobs fire and forget targeting
now who are the "thugs" again?
Dont think the victims care about what kind of weapon kills you or destroys your life. Dont have the numbers but the death ratio of the innocent civilians in lebanon and on gaza vs. those killed in Israel is not comparable. Hezbollah will prolly gain even more support now just like the "freedom fighters" in iraq have.
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If the Israelis wanted to kill as many civilians as possible, they wouldn't be lobbing puny 500 lbr's.....
If you have a doubt who is the thug, try this:
Israelis lob rockets at densely populated areas with little accuracy launching from crowded places.
How would Lebanon respond if Israeli fanatic groups were lobbing some 1200 missilies at Lebanese towns while the army stood idly by?
One has to reflect things a bit to get a view.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
It is ok to destroy infrastructure that enables terrorist movements and operations even if it also hurts innocent civilian population?
The civililians are themselves part of that support infrastructure, the only innocent ones are the kids, and even they are often combatants when it comes to Islamofascists.
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Originally posted by Edbert1
The civililians are themselves part of that support infrastructure, the only innocent ones are the kids, and even they are often combatants when it comes to Islamofascists.
Ok
Wall Street is a legitemate target then. Is part of the economical infrastructure of America and an "enabler" of Americas global warfare. ;)
Israel has set the feble economy of gaza and lebanon back years. Good strategy for building a stable region with a government that may in time have been able to control its areas. Now its gotta start all over again with the already huge foreign debt that they have.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Wall Street is a legitemate target then. Is part of the economical infrastructure of America and an "enabler" of Americas global warfare. ;)
You may be suprised to learn that I agree, at least intellectually. Although I'm afraid that our enemy wants to win this war more than we do, this can be witnessed by the piddly little way we are fighting it. They will stop at nothing to hurt us and we wring our hands and worry about offending folks.
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That will almost always be the case. Criminals will forever have the best hand and the rest of us have to play catch-up. Its the downside to beeing the good guys, but its important to stay good to separate us from them.
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of course wallstreet is a target, what do you think they are going to attack our military?
they know the only way they can beat us is to have us beat ourselves
the best way to do that is to put our economy into a downward spiral, once we hit depression level, we'll implode as they laugh while watching it all on their fav news net - cnn
what do you think they were targeting on 9/11 if it wasn't wallstreet?
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Originally posted by Eagler
of course wallstreet is a target, what do you think they are gouing to attack our military?
they know the only way they can beat us is to have us beat ourselves
the best way to do that is to put our economy into a downward spiral, once we hit depression level, we'll implode as they laugh while watching it all on their fav news net - cnn
what do you think they were targeting on 9/11 if it wasn't wallstreet?
Thats settled then.. Wall Street is a legitemate target.
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A building on wallstreet is not a legitimate target because it is nothing but civilians and a building
and the destruction of the building does nothing to the stock market that the destruction of any other building wouldn't do.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
A building on wallstreet is not a legitimate target because it is nothing but civilians and a building
and the destruction of the building does nothing to the stock market that the destruction of any other building wouldn't do.
lazs
for us or them?
any building is a target for them as long as it strike terror and fear in the hearts of the targeted country
our mistake is that we continue to think we are dealing with civilized enemy. They are savages and need to be dealt with accordingly
Israel has already figured that one out
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Originally posted by lazs2
A building on wallstreet is not a legitimate target because it is nothing but civilians and a building
and the destruction of the building does nothing to the stock market that the destruction of any other building wouldn't do.
lazs
I suspect that a "good" hit on WS would be followed by some serious panic selling. The servers would prolly stay intact but trading would be closed. When it opened for business it would fall like a rock except for maybe some defence and energy stocks. The fall in stockprices and the slowing of several parts of the economy would reduce the governments income and defence budgets would follow (unless you start living even more on loans)
A powerstation on gaza is also a civilian target land will hurt civilian innocents and the local economy.
The first really bad thing i saw comming out of the region after hamas won the election was the freezing of funds to that government. Officials and police did not get their paychecks their ability to control (what little they had) was weakended. Hamas was elected in a democratic election and should have been given a longer chanse to work.... Now its all down the drain and as i said.. have to start from less than they had.
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Originally posted by Eagler
for us or them?
any building is a target for them as long as it strike terror and fear in the hearts of the targeted country
our mistake is that we continue to think we are dealing with civilized enemy. They are savages and need to be dealt with accordingly
Israel has already figured that one out
And they are playing the "game" the way Hizbollah wants them to.
You cant play the game on their terms.
If you/we allow them to play on their terms we will be sucked in by the dark side and become siths just like Darth Vader.
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Originally posted by LLv34 Jarsci
If US citisens would have been under bombing during WW2 I think US peoples thinking would be a little different..... Compare euro vs US thinking about similar matters in this BBS. Experiences affect point of view.
Personally my thinking goes like this:
1. why Jews had to go there in the first place anyway..? Or did all european countries just continue what Adolf did with nicer methods-> resulting all Jews kicked out of our continent..
2. well , now that theyre there they should even try to live with their neighbours. If they had acted a little more peacefully and not responded to every threat and crosseyed look with bombs and bullets, they would prolly have peace there..or not. Holocaust card has been exhausted by now as civilians are killed en masses, and look who is doing mostly the killing.
But if this situation escalates I would like to close all borders around Middle east and let them sort it out themselves.... at least we MIGHT have some peace around there for a while.. (and I dont give a rubber dog$h1t who wins...)
1. A.) The Jewish people wanted to go there, the Middle East is where they came from. They're every bit as entitled to a home there as any Arab ever will be.
1. B.) Yes, Europe wanted them gone from the continent in mass numbers.
2. A.) They HAVE learned to live there. They've learned that when people try to kill you , you don't whimper and ask why they hate you, you go and kill them. Their neighbors want to EXTERMINATE them. Or have you never read the open writings of Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad,, the PLO, or the PLA? Their "neighbors" have been trying to exterminate them for DECADES, and they STILL ARE.
2. B.) They HAVE responded peacefully. Have you got ANY IDEA how many times they've practiced "restraint", especially at the request of Europe and the U.N. after one of the above mentioned groups has slipped into Israel and blown up a dozen civilians?
2. C.) The Holocaust card? Who's been playing that card anyway? The Holocaust is history, Israel is fighting for survival, and they make no bones about it. The don't need the "Holocaust card" to give them a pass on killing terrorists. Constant terrorist attacks for decades pretty much give them that pass in the eyes of anyone with common sense.
3. It doesn't surprise me you want to hole up and not give a damn about anyone else. And what will you expect when they come for you? You'll be the first one squealing for help.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
And they are playing the "game" the way Hizbollah wants them to.
I think the correction would be:
"they are playing the game the way Iran wants them to"
as OBL attack the US to get at Saudi Arabia, we should flatten Syria and Iran to cut off the head of the terror orgs throughout the ME
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Originally posted by Nilsen
And they are playing the "game" the way Hizbollah wants them to.
You cant play the game on their terms.
If you/we allow them to play on their terms we will be sucked in by the dark side and become siths just like Darth Vader.
No, they aren't. Hezbollah would like for Israel to sit on their hands and take it. Which is what you'd like them to do as well.
The way some are whining about this, you'd think Israel is carpet bombing a bunch of subdivisions, hospitals, schools, and day care centers. What a crock.
By the way, the U.N. has been in southern Lebanon for decades, they were supposed to prevent Hezbollah from starting this. Boy, the U.N. sure is on the ball. Hezbollah has been launching attacks from Lebanon for decades, and it appears they have a few THOUSAND rockets in the area the U.N. was supposed to be keeping them out of.
The one thing Reagan did that I didn't like was pulling out. He should have ramped up and smashed the damned place and hunted the terrorists down when the blew the Marine barracks.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
No, they aren't. Hezbollah would like for Israel to sit on their hands and take it. Which is what you'd like them to do as well.
The way some are whining about this, you'd think Israel is carpet bombing a bunch of subdivisions, hospitals, schools, and day care centers. What a crock.
By the way, the U.N. has been in southern Lebanon for decades, they were supposed to prevent Hezbollah from starting this. Boy, the U.N. sure is on the ball. Hezbollah has been launching attacks from Lebanon for decades, and it appears they have a few THOUSAND rockets in the area the U.N. was supposed to be keeping them out of.
The one thing Reagan did that I didn't like was pulling out. He should have ramped up and smashed the damned place and hunted the terrorists down when the blew the Marine barracks.
I never said they should sit on their hands.. dont put words in my mouth. The world is not black and white Hilts. There is a HUGE difference between sitting on your hands and destroying infrastructure.
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nelson... suspect all you want. You can just as easily suspect that a good hit on downtown boston would throw the stock market into a panic.
Raising the interest rates a point sends the stock market into a panic.
Destroying the buildings on WS would not destroy the ability of the stock market to function so your arguement is bogus.
Even damaging the ability of the stock market to function would not stop the ability of the U.S. to make war.
Your defense of the terrorists is pretty lame.
lazs
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Originally posted by Eagler
I think the correction would be:
"they are playing the game the way Iran wants them to"
as OBL attack the US to get at Saudi Arabia, we should flatten Syria and Iran to cut off the head of the terror orgs throughout the ME
True... Iran is backing Hizbholla, but it still means that Israel is playing "thier" game. "They" beeing those that wants to harm Israel.
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so Nilsen...what would u expect ur goverment to do if there was a group lobbing rockets at ur house, and that group had the goal of raising norvay and norvegians off the planet.
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Originally posted by lazs2
nelson... suspect all you want. You can just as easily suspect that a good hit on downtown boston would throw the stock market into a panic.
Raising the interest rates a point sends the stock market into a panic.
Destroying the buildings on WS would not destroy the ability of the stock market to function so your arguement is bogus.
Even damaging the ability of the stock market to function would not stop the ability of the U.S. to make war.
Your defense of the terrorists is pretty lame.
lazs
I have never defended terrorists, but keep trying lazs...
I am trying to defend those stuck in the middle.. you know the "collateral damage" that is so far away from your safe dwelling.
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
so Nilsen...what would u expect ur goverment to do if there was a group lobbing rockets at ur house, and that group had the goal of raising norvay and norvegians off the planet.
Chase them down and bring them down. If you read what I have written I have supported Israels right to defend itself.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Chase them down and bring them down. If you read what I have written I have supported Israels right to defend itself.
isn`t that what we are doing?
it`s not easy you know....not even with all the high tech we`ve got.
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
isn`t that what we are doing?
it`s not easy you know....not even with all the high tech we`ve got.
I know its hard... i cant even imagine just how hard it is.
Its the bombing of powerplants and infrastructure i am critical of, not direct action or even pinpoint ground attacks vs hizbholla positions. When the Red Cross reports here that they are running out of medicine and fuel for generators that run the medical teams something is wrong.
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My dwelling is safe because my people would never allow the miutemen or AB or American nazi party to rocket mexico or canada say.
I would not allow them to put the launcher in my home.
I would condem them beheading mexicans on TV and kidnaping people.
When the jews start beheading lebonese civilians with a dull knife on TV then I will rethink my position.
For now.... I believe that they are doing the best they can with a situation that they did not cause. I believe that they are fighting a truly barbaric and cruel enemy who wants only their complete destruction and that lebanon is harboring said enemy.
I deplore all war and all casualties. I also realize that human nature being as it is.... there is often NO alternative. You don't negotiate with a serial killer for instance or a child molester... it is a waste of breath and.... harmful unless you are decieveing them to buy time.
I believe that Israel is right in what they are doing and showing remarkable restraint.
What do you feel? better yet..... how would you handle it?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
What do you feel? better yet..... how would you handle it?
lazs
See my above post.
As to not allowing rocket launchers to be posted in your home:
Im sure plenty of norwegians/ french/dutch whatever didnt want to allow the nazis to take their homes, transports etc either. I guess they chickened out when armed soldier knocked on their door. You may have been braver, but some of us are just human and gets pretty freaked in that situation. I can imagine that some lebanese would also be pretty scared too if a group of men came in their door and wanted to launc rockets from their rooftop.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Okay, so ethical standards are based upon the firepower involved.
If I kill one innocent by a misdirected munition, I am ok, if I kill what 5..? am I then a thug?
The Russians pumped sleeping gas into a theater and ended up killing a few score. Not intended, but I guess that was thuggary.
Buy my measure, it was a valiant effort gone awry.
Put the straw man down, he's had enough.
I'd base the ethical standards on the intent -- so using a sniper rifle and hitting a hostage with the bullet can certainly be construed as accidental: it is a precision weapon, not designed to kill everything in a 60m radius. Sleeping gas in your second example is not intended to kill everything within its area of effect: so again, unintentional killings, yes. Using Sarin gas on the other hand would be deliberately killing civilians. And so it is with bombs in built-up areas: this is deliberately killing civilians -- or thuggery as Angus puts it.
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Originally posted by LLv34 Jarsci
If US citisens would have been under bombing during WW2 I think US peoples thinking would be a little different.....
We had over 11,000 civilian deaths in WWII.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_casualties_by_countrylink (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_casualties_by_country)
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Didn't the Israelis drop leaflets advising everyone to get the hell out of the area because they were about to bomb it? That they were willing to tip off those they were trying to kill to avoid killing those they weren't does not sound like thuggery to me.
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Originally posted by Angus
If the Israelis wanted to kill as many civilians as possible, they wouldn't be lobbing puny 500 lbr's.....
If you have a doubt who is the thug, try this:
Israelis lob rockets at densely populated areas with little accuracy launching from crowded places.
How would Lebanon respond if Israeli fanatic groups were lobbing some 1200 missilies at Lebanese towns while the army stood idly by?
One has to reflect things a bit to get a view.
"If Hizbollah wanted to kill as many civilians as possible, they wouldn't be lobbing puny rockets..."
Strange how that justification seems to swing both ways and still sound natural - perhaps because it's merely a justification of thuggery.
BTW, I have no doubt who the thugs are: they're the ones using the weapons. It's a handy rule of thumb, which I picked up from The Observer's Book of Thugs.
As to how Lebanon would respond to Israeli fanatics lobbing missiles at densely populated areas: no need to speculate, watch the news, it's on right now. Any armed response? Only from thugs. Any invasion of Israel? Not even from the thugs.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
It is ok to destroy infrastructure that enables terrorist movements and operations even if it also hurts innocent civilian population?
Didn't the the Brits and a group of Norweigians commandos blow up some hydro plant in WWII to stop heavy water productuion?
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Originally posted by Elfie
That's not entirely accurate. The IDF could very well be the absolute best at pulling destroyed/damaged tanks off the battlefield, repairing them and sending them back into combat with new crews. Heck, the Israelis pull damaged/destroyed Arab tanks off the battlefield, repair them, regun them and send them back into battle against their former owners.
Due to political pressures I dont believe the US actually sent any military equiptment to Israel while the Yom Kippur war was going on. The Yom Kippur War only lasted about 30 days, most of the Israeli tank losses were in the initial stages of the war. By the end of the war the majority of those tanks had been repaired and sent back into combat.
The Yom Kippur war saw the first use of large quantities of anti-tank missles by infantry. This took the Israeli tank units by surprise, they apparently didnt realize just how many Sagger missles (I think that was the missle) the Egyptians had.
Maybe not on the ground front, but I remember reading how the US
sent ECM pods to help counter the SA-6 threat. Just saw a program where
the IDF didn't much like the tactics the USAF advised to use em though.
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Originally posted by Krusher
Didn't the the Brits and a group of Norweigians commandos blow up some hydro plant in WWII to stop heavy water productuion?
I think they sank a ferry loaded with heavy water too.
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Originally posted by -dead-
"If Hizbollah wanted to kill as many civilians as possible, they wouldn't be lobbing puny rockets..."
Strange how that justification seems to swing both ways and still sound natural - perhaps because it's merely a justification of thuggery.
BTW, I have no doubt who the thugs are: they're the ones using the weapons. It's a handy rule of thumb, which I picked up from The Observer's Book of Thugs.
As to how Lebanon would respond to Israeli fanatics lobbing missiles at densely populated areas: no need to speculate, watch the news, it's on right now. Any armed response? Only from thugs. Any invasion of Israel? Not even from the thugs.
Please provide an example of when Hezbollah exercised restraint to avoid civilian casualties.
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They way I see it, if your "cause" requires you to wear a ski mask as part of your uniform, you should re-evaluate it
I hope Israel exterminates every single one of the masked "freedom fighter" they can before the hand wringing becomes some loud they are forced to stop
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Originally posted by Krusher
Didn't the the Brits and a group of Norweigians commandos blow up some hydro plant in WWII to stop heavy water productuion?
Some norwegians did... after silently notifying the workers and doing it at night. They did however kill a few civilians when they sank a small ferry containing the last drops of the heavy water. That operation may have prevented the germans from making the first nukular mushroom.
That was a very different time tho, when allies and axis carpet bombed whole cities to get at factories and stuff.
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Originally posted by -dead-
Put the straw man down, he's had enough.
I'd base the ethical standards on the intent -- so using a sniper rifle and hitting a hostage with the bullet can certainly be construed as accidental: it is a precision weapon, not designed to kill everything in a 60m radius. Sleeping gas in your second example is not intended to kill everything within its area of effect: so again, unintentional killings, yes. Using Sarin gas on the other hand would be deliberately killing civilians. And so it is with bombs in built-up areas: this is deliberately killing civilians -- or thuggery as Angus puts it.
OK now!! So it boils down to intent.
Lets look at this thing called intent. You wish to condem the Isrealis because they responded to an attack on their soil from a neighboring country. The attack is launched by the use of unguided rockets on a civilain city with no definable military targets on it. The attack is launched by folks who place their launcher in a city neighborhood populated by their own people. Once they place the launcher there and especially after they launch the weapon, that area becomes a legitimate military target.
Now who has the intent here. The people who fire back? Or it it possibly the ones who place the weapon in a civilian neighborhood and launch the unguided weapon into a city with no military value? Nah it couldn't POSSIBLY be the ones launching the rockets. They are peace loving muslims who just simply HAVE to use their own people as human shields as there can't possibly be any non urban area to launch unguided rockets from anywhere else in that rural desert country. Right got it....:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Maverick
OK now!! So it boils down to intent.
Lets look at this thing called intent. You wish to condem the Isrealis because they responded to an attack on their soil from a neighboring country. The attack is launched by the use of unguided rockets on a civilain city with no definable military targets on it. The attack is launched by folks who place their launcher in a city neighborhood populated by their own people. Once they place the launcher there and especially after they launch the weapon, that area becomes a legitimate military target.
I can find supporting reports that Hezbollah fired rockets on the civil populous of Shlomi (and yes that makes them evil ********s) but I can't find anything that supports that they fired them from amongst civilians.
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Nilsen maybe this will put a bit of perspective on things. During both Gulf Wars the *good* guys bombed powerplants and infrastructure in Iraq. Doing so made it harder for the Iraqis to communicate with each other and defend themselves. Yes, it did make things harder on the civilian population. Otoh, it probably saved countless lives on both sides by making the fighting end sooner.
Dead, the Israelis have dropped leaflets, warning the civilians to leave, no way the Israelis are thugs. That dubious honor belongs to the people lobbing 122mm rockets into cities that have no military targets.
1. why Jews had to go there in the first place anyway..?
Maybe because Israel is the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people?
2. well , now that theyre there they should even try to live with their neighbours. If they had acted a little more peacefully and not responded to every threat and crosseyed look with bombs and bullets, they would prolly have peace there..or not.
Riiiigght......
Where is the outrage I sense when Israel is attacked over and over and over by suicide bombers blowing up cafes, buses, nightclubs etc. When Israeli cities are attacked by rockets and artillery.....where is your outrage then?
Seems like you could care less about Israeli citizens dying, but when the poor Arabs die then you become outraged.
There will be NO peace in the Middle East until the Arabs give up the ideology that Israel MUST be ANNIHILATED. Groups like Hamas and Hezbollah will NOT be satisfied until Israel has been pushed into the sea.
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Thrawn
Use the TV. On the news the other day I saw some launchers being used in between houses on a street in an obvious urban envirinment.
Yep I know you won't want to accept the source since it was the news in the US. Whatever. At this time I kinda really don't want to go there myself and take film of it in action and you wouldn't want to believe me either.
It's a s***y situation there but as long as one side won't be satisfied unless the other nation is erased from the earth it ain't gona go away. Ya can't learn to live together is all you want to do is keep trying to kill the other guy.
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nelson... you need to stop and listen to what you are saying.... you don't seriously compare the nazi occupation with that of these dime bag terroists in lebanon?
If these a holes wanted to set up a rocket launcher (read future jewish target) on my roof....
I would... say no with arms if I could.
Or... call the police (what? the police are part of them?)
or... leave the frigging area.
It is like the urban myth here that the jews buldoze houses down with women and children in em. Why didn't the women and children just walk away?
I would have to give the jews the moral upper hand here... it is only logical.... the jews NEVER sent suicide bombers into crowded arab streets to kill as many civilians as possible...
They don't behead people on TV...
They don't have a stated policy of wiping arab muslims off the face of the earth...
and... unless you are a total whack job... no one believes that they intentionaly target civilians...
Sooo.... your defense of the barbarians that do all these things... the terrorists... is suspect.... to say the two sides are comparable and alike is very telling.
lazs
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Originally posted by Maverick
Thrawn
Use the TV. On the news the other day I saw some launchers being used in between houses on a street in an obvious urban envirinment.
Yep I know you won't want to accept the source since it was the news in the US. Whatever. At this time I kinda really don't want to go there myself and take film of it in action and you wouldn't want to believe me either.
Your word on what you saw on the news is good enough for me.
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Originally posted by Maverick
OK now!! So it boils down to intent.
Lets look at this thing called intent. You wish to condem the Isrealis because they responded to an attack on their soil from a neighboring country. The attack is launched by the use of unguided rockets on a civilain city with no definable military targets on it. The attack is launched by folks who place their launcher in a city neighborhood populated by their own people. Once they place the launcher there and especially after they launch the weapon, that area becomes a legitimate military target.
Now who has the intent here. The people who fire back? Or it it possibly the ones who place the weapon in a civilian neighborhood and launch the unguided weapon into a city with no military value? Nah it couldn't POSSIBLY be the ones launching the rockets. They are peace loving muslims who just simply HAVE to use their own people as human shields as there can't possibly be any non urban area to launch unguided rockets from anywhere else in that rural desert country. Right got it....:rolleyes:
Both Hizbollah & Israel intend to kill civilians, both are "thugs". And note it's not Lebanon, but Hizbollah that started and are participating in this round of violence.
I suppose if you look back further for the intent, Israel's invasion of Lebanon is the reason Hizbollah was formed, so you could just look at it as blowback from a previous incursion. And no doubt Hizbollah argue that Shebaa Farms has still not been handed back to Lebanon, thus Israel has not yet withdrawn from Lebanon, so Israel is a legitimate military target etc etc.
Rest assured both sides are convinced they are fully justified in doing it —_otherwise they wouldn't do it. But also note that none of these justifications changes the fact that both sides are deliberately killing civilians. So I condemn the Israelis for deliberately killing civilians. And I condemn Hizbollah too. I currently condemn the Israelis more because they're killing more civilians.
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Originally posted by -dead-
And note it's not Lebanon, but Hizbollah that started and are participating in this round of violence.
At what point does the general population of a country become responsible for the actions of their government? At what point does the government (in Lebanon) become responsible for the acts-of-war carried out against their neighbor from within their sovereign borders?
It is a rhetorical question but I say 100% of the time on both counts.
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Originally posted by Eagler
They way I see it, if your "cause" requires you to wear a ski mask as part of your uniform, you should re-evaluate it
I hope Israel exterminates every single one of the masked "freedom fighter" they can before the hand wringing becomes some loud they are forced to stop
A stunning indictment of the SAS, GSG 9, and other counter terrorist forces, SWAT teams and Artic troops the world over. Surprising indeed from you.
Hizbollah have little green headbands, though they do often dress in black like a lot of those guys in uniform you're railing against, a suspicious trait in itself.
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If the folks here think Isreal is .."too harsh"..they are complete idiots
The peopel who they are attacking ...HAVE STATED IN WRIITING FOR COMPLETE DESRTUCTION OF ISREAL AND ITS PEOPLE
Simple..So Hamas..Hizpoobah..Iran Syria..Need to get KILLED
Isreal I wish you luck...feel free to use the Big Bomb
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Originally posted by -dead-
A stunning indictment of the SAS, GSG 9, and other counter terrorist forces, SWAT teams and Artic troops the world over. Surprising indeed from you.
Hizbollah have little green headbands, though they do often dress in black like a lot of those guys in uniform you're railing against, a suspicious trait in itself.
oh yeah, forgot all those parades full of swat guys with ski masks marching up and down the street on the tele LOL
artic troops? so the heezboobs are cold now? LOL
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Originally posted by Edbert1
At what point does the general population of a country become responsible for the actions of their government? At what point does the government (in Lebanon) become responsible for the acts-of-war carried out against their neighbor from within their sovereign borders?
It is a rhetorical question but I say 100% of the time on both counts.
Well, as I tried to point out, it's not so cut and dried. The reason Lebanon has Hizbollah, and why it has no military control over the South of Lebanon is Israel's invasion, and border clashes stirred up by both parties since. And as the people of Lebanon don't vote on who runs Hizbollah or what they do, how can we hold them responsible?
Especially given the sectarian nature of Lebanon —_not only are there divides within the muslim populace between Shia & Sunni, but a bit over 40% of Lebanese are christians, and 5% are Druze, so they're less likely to agree with Hizbollah.
So if we're talking purely religiously, Hizbollah —_as a *****e group — represent about 26% of Lebanese. Of course, that's over-simplified — a lot of Shia aren't going to agree with Hizbollah, and it doesn't go straight down religious lines —_so no doubt some Sunni, Druze or Xians are going to be pro Hizbollah.
However as far as I can see, if we apply your logic, then both countries' civilians are legitimate targets, and both sides are justified in killing civilians now. So I'd say I disagree with the logic all told — I reckon it doesn't justify deliberately killing civilians for either side.
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Originally posted by lazs2
nelson... you need to stop and listen to what you are saying.... you don't seriously compare the nazi occupation with that of these dime bag terroists in lebanon?
If these a holes wanted to set up a rocket launcher (read future jewish target) on my roof....
I would... say no with arms if I could.
Or... call the police (what? the police are part of them?)
or... leave the frigging area.
It is like the urban myth here that the jews buldoze houses down with women and children in em. Why didn't the women and children just walk away?
I would have to give the jews the moral upper hand here... it is only logical.... the jews NEVER sent suicide bombers into crowded arab streets to kill as many civilians as possible...
They don't behead people on TV...
They don't have a stated policy of wiping arab muslims off the face of the earth...
and... unless you are a total whack job... no one believes that they intentionaly target civilians...
Sooo.... your defense of the barbarians that do all these things... the terrorists... is suspect.... to say the two sides are comparable and alike is very telling.
lazs
You need to stop and read what im saying.
Im not comparing nazi occupation to whats happening in lebanon.. Im saying that if 4 dudes in hoods at your door with guns saying they want in then you let them in. Does not matter if they are nazi, hisbollah or whatever. if you dont get that then that is your problem, not mine. Dont even try to be funny lazs... you would not do squat if you have a family in your house and they knock on your door with AKs. You do as they say period. Dont even try to say that you would play hero.
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Originally posted by BGBMAW
If the folks here think Isreal is .."too harsh"..they are complete idiots
The peopel who they are attacking ...HAVE STATED IN WRIITING FOR COMPLETE DESRTUCTION OF ISREAL AND ITS PEOPLE
Simple..So Hamas..Hizpoobah..Iran Syria..Need to get KILLED
Isreal I wish you luck...feel free to use the Big Bomb
Cant get your point across without calling those that do not view the world from your standpoint idiots?
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Both Hizbollah & Israel intend to kill civilians, both are "thugs".
Yep, Israel intends to kill civilians, thats why they dropped leaflets warning them to leave. :huh
If you are warned to leave an area because danger, life threatening danger.....is imminent, and you choose to NOT leave and you get hurt, or even deaded....who's fault is that? Yours and yours alone, no one elses.
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The reason Lebanon has Hizbollah, and why it has no military control over the South of Lebanon is Israel's invasion,
Why did Israel invade and occupy southern Lebanon for 18 or so years? Maybe because they got tired of the PLO shelling their cities from within Lebanon?
When Israel finally does pull out of southern Lebanon, the Hizbollah nutjobs move in and start doing the same thing the PLO used to do, shell Israel.
Lebanon has a history of allowing terrorist organizations to not only occupy parts of their country, but to attack another sovereign nation from camps within the Lebanese borders.
I dont blame Israel one bit for it's actions. They have every right to ensure the safety of their citizens. Yes, civilians are going to die and that is unfortunate. Israel is trying to keep the civilian casualties to a minimum though, as evidenced by them dropping leaflets. That is more than you can say for Hezbollah with their deliberate rocket attacks on Israeli cities.
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when the shoe fits wear it
And yes..people are idiots if they think isreal is "too harsh"
But theses same people are very very quiet ...when
1) you are lopping some ones head off with a butter knife
2) you are strapping c4 with nails on..then walking into a wedding/pizza parlor/bus
Ya...thats real nice....Funny the racists in the EU-UN-Middel east..close there pie holes when that happens......"Give peace a chance"
They moved out 6 years ago...UN sits on border..what did they do to stop Hamas or Hizpoobaa?..NOTHING
yes idiots truly fits the shoe
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Originally posted by BGBMAW
yes idiots truly fits the shoe
I understand what you are saying, but perhaps we could say they are being close minded instead of being an idiot?
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Latest I hear is Lebanon saying they will fight with Hezbollah against Israel if Israel sends large scale ground forces into Lebanon to fight Hezbollah. This whole thing could escalate out of control yet.
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Originally posted by lukster
Latest I hear is Lebanon saying they will fight with Hezbollah against Israel if Israel sends large scale ground forces into Lebanon to fight Hezbollah. This whole thing could escalate out of control yet.
Just heard that. Its a strange strange world we live in.
God help us all....or for you atheists.....Good Luck
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Just read this on the news. Yup, Lebanon is picking the side of Hizbollah rather than stopping them?
And from dead:
""If Hizbollah wanted to kill as many civilians as possible, they wouldn't be lobbing puny rockets..."
Strange how that justification seems to swing both ways and still sound natural - perhaps because it's merely a justification of thuggery."
They'd lob something bigger if they had it, while the Israelis have the force to pancake the whole of Lebanon if they would want it. Get it? Of course not, you'd have moved out, right. Keep moving around the globe...
Comes to my mind when I think about this all, - what was the first news I remember from the Israelis. Oh, yes, the Olympics, and then shortly after I remember something about a schoolbus being blown up. A frigging schoolbus. With children my age at the time. So I started adding. Now they WERE the target and so it has been ever since...
Do the Israelis posess technology to blow up schoolbuses?
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From the message traffic I've seen come across from the Reserve Center here I'm already packing my seabag in anticipation of getting the recall notice. Just a matter if time now.
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Originally posted by DiabloTX
From the message traffic I've seen come across from the Reserve Center here I'm already packing my seabag in anticipation of getting the recall notice. Just a matter if time now.
Well Bro...if you do get it , be safe. Best wishes. an Thanks from a fellow Sailor.
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Originally posted by Angus
Do the Israelis posess technology to blow up schoolbuses?
Short answer,yes. They just don't have the hate or barbarity quotient to deliberately do an act like that.
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Originally posted by -dead-
Put the straw man down, he's had enough.
I'd base the ethical standards on the intent -- so using a sniper rifle and hitting a hostage with the bullet can certainly be construed as accidental: it is a precision weapon, not designed to kill everything in a 60m radius.
So are your ethical standards are based upon intent or firepower?
You seem to accept collateral damage if the attack is precise enough.
If the bomb destroys everthing within 60M... bad
How about 50 M?
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Originally posted by Elfie
Yep, Israel intends to kill civilians, thats why they dropped leaflets warning them to leave. :huh
If you are warned to leave an area because danger, life threatening danger.....is imminent, and you choose to NOT leave and you get hurt, or even deaded....who's fault is that? Yours and yours alone, no one elses.
Well, that sounds like a fairly logical justification for killing civilians at first glance, but what are the Lebanese to make of the Israelis ordering everyone out of the village of Marwaheen and then bombing their convoy? Sounds a bit like "stay and we'll bomb you, leave and we'll bomb you" to them, I reckon. So why bother going?
And indeed if you drop leaflets, you're unlikely to be catching Hizbollah unawares and in situ either -- so one has to wonder: why bother bombing the place at all?
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Originally posted by -dead-
Well, that sounds like a fairly logical justification for killing civilians at first glance, but what are the Lebanese to make of the Israelis ordering everyone out of the village of Marwaheen and then bombing their convoy? Sounds a bit like "stay and we'll bomb you, leave and we'll bomb you" to them, I reckon. So why bother going?
And indeed if you drop leaflets, you're unlikely to be catching Hizbollah unawares and in situ either -- so one has to wonder: why bother bombing the place at all?
This one is safe, no gory pictures.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5184122.stm
So far only one side of the story has been told here. Did those Israeli pilots attack those vehicles knowing they held civilians? Had that area been deemed clear of civilians and declared a *free fire zone* because they thought all the civilians were gone? We dont know the answers to any of those questions or many others yet.
You make it sound like as soon as the Lebanese left their homes and were peacefully leaving that the Israelis attacked them. That isnt what happened at all. They were told to leave and were also told they only had hours to do so. They left and headed for the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon base for shelter and were refused entry because the UN couldnt confirm that they were ordered to leave their homes. At some point after leaving the UN base civilian vehicles were attacked by Israeli air units. I have seen reports of either an F-16 or a helicopter being the attacker.
I'm sure we'll hear more in the coming days. If that Israeli pilot(s) is/are guilty of deliberately attacking civilians I'm sure Israel will pursue punishment, they want to be the good guys in this fight. For the moment alot of us still feel they are. The UN also shares some of the blame for this tragedy because of their refusal to allow those people in.
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Originally posted by BGBMAW
when the shoe fits wear it
And yes..people are idiots if they think isreal is "too harsh"
But theses same people are very very quiet ...when
1) you are lopping some ones head off with a butter knife
2) you are strapping c4 with nails on..then walking into a wedding/pizza parlor/bus
Ya...thats real nice....Funny the racists in the EU-UN-Middel east..close there pie holes when that happens......"Give peace a chance"
They moved out 6 years ago...UN sits on border..what did they do to stop Hamas or Hizpoobaa?..NOTHING
yes idiots truly fits the shoe
I think you should pay better attention, but I guess its easy to miss when everyone is going in the same direction.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Short answer,yes. They just don't have the hate or barbarity quotient to deliberately do an act like that.
I'd put the emphasis on the latter, their barbarity, and that is what strikes me most about the Islamofascists. It just seems like we are in the 21st century and that entire region of the world (predominantly muslim populated countries from Libya to Pakistan) seems somehow stuck in the 8th century. Except that they have learned through centuries of military defeats to "western" forces that they are no match so they've evolved this little "insugent/terrorist/partisan" tactic that so far western military powers have yet to learn to defeat.
Our enemy knows no limit to their depths of depravity and barbarity, and the sooner we come to grips with that and prepare to defeat it the better. I'm afraid we're just going to have to get our collective hands dirty and stoop below our high moral ground (as western civilization has done so many times in the past when fighting a culture that wants to eliminate it). I don't see defeating these guys with words and humanistic or religious moral arguments. I also do not see defeating them with traditional warfare tactics. There may be some hearts-and-minds to be won over to our side but they are a tiny minority. The majority of the hearts-and-minds are not on the table and cannot be deterred, I've come to beleive they just need erradicating. They have yet to have their renaissance or period of enlightenment. So if they want to act like curr dogs in the streets they need to be dealt with accordingly.
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Well I think things are going to heat up there soon. Now that Hezbollocks has longer range missiles Israel is going to extend their borders 10 km or so into Lebanon to create a buffer zone. Especially in those areas near one of their big cities.
If the Lebanese government won't stop the rocket attacks looks like Israel will take matters into their own hands.
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nelson... no...you were comparing lebenon to nazi occupied countries... are you saying the hezbo whatevers control the whole country? Why wouldn't the neighbors call the cops if they saw four guys break into my house?
And.... if they wouldn't then that would tend to mean that the hez-ebola virus controled the entire counrty in which case...
That would mean that lebenon was rocketing the jews... you can't have it both ways. If the country is in cahoots with the hez-ebola... then they have forfieted some of their "civilian" stutus when they allow the hez-ebola to have rocket launchers in town or have their hedquarters in large apartment complexes.
How would you take care of the hez-ebola virus if you were Israel? They are firing rockets and making cross border raids and hiding in the midst of a very willing population of a country that encourages them to do whatever they want... even gives them political power.
I think the jews are doing exactly what needs to be done. I think the people of lebanon ought to be thinking this through and be blaming the hez-ebola.... just like the people of germany eventualy realized that the real enemy was hitler.
lazs
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Have a nice day lazs... spoonfeeding you is getting old, so you can keep stomping you feet all you want.
Get some fresh air.
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I will thanks. gonna change the oil in the Lincoln and get a haircut and maybe jump in one of the Hot Rods and go shoot some pistols.... later pick up the grand daughter for a weekend. Love these 3 day weekends.
Maybe do some pickup work on the addition stuff I did around the house and think about if I can retire this year or not.
Edbert is correct about the islamofacists.... you wouldn't want em in your country much less running it but you condone their barbarism in other countries so long as they are doing it against jews.
Never could figure out if it was just a general your-0-peean anti semitism or that it is a resentment for the individulistic nature of Israel and it's citizens.... Much like the resentment your-0-peeeans have allways felt toward the U.S.
It is funny that you would defend the most barbaric people on earth... as edbert says... they live in another time... but.... Not so much the 8th century in my opinion but in a one big century where all the centuries flow together.... where people drive cars to the stoning or pull a flintlock out of the trunk. Where TV is used to highlight the cutting off of someones head who dares to be a citizen of another country or religion.
I have to ask.... who would you want for a neighbor... the jews or the lebonese/hez-ebolas?
That is the gist of it.... who do you want for a neigbor to your little ice bear country?
Would you fear the jews? Do you believe they would kidnap and murder your citizens? "bulldoze" your homes while you were at a meal of lutefish? fire rockets at your apartments?
Or... would you fear an intolerant hez-ebola kidnapping and beheading your citizens and strapping on bomb suits in the ice capade follies?
lazs
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New notice from Stratfor:
Red Alert: Hezbollah's Iranian Connection
Prior to the rise of the Shia in Iraq, Hezbollah -- as a radical *****e Islamist organization -- was Iran's main asset in the Arab world. In fact, it likely will continue to be used by Tehran as a key tool for furthering Iranian geopolitical interests in the region, until such time as *****e power has been consolidated in Baghdad and Iran's interests there secured.
In its earliest days, Hezbollah was a classic militant organization -- the creation of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC), the elite unit of the Iranian military. It was founded as a way to export the ideals of Ayatollah Ruholla Khomeini's Islamic revolution to the *****e community of Lebanon, and served as a model for follow-on organizations (some even using the same name) in other Arab states. It did not take long, however, for Hezbollah to emerge in Lebanon as a guerrilla movement, whose fighters were trained in conventional military tactics.
In the mid-1980s, Iran's premier intelligence agency, the Ministry of Intelligence and Security (MOIS), assumed the task of managing Tehran's militant assets -- not just in the Middle East but in other parts of the world as well. This allowed the Iranians, through a special unit within MOIS, to strike at Israeli interests in places as diverse as Latin America and Southeast Asia.
The relationship between MOIS and Hezbollah remains a subject worthy of study in light of the current situation in Lebanon. Of course, Iran has been Hezbollah's chief source of funding and weapons over the years, and the Iranians continue to supply extensive training in weapons, tactics, communications, surveillance and other methods to the militant wing of Hezbollah in Lebanon. The relationship is sufficiently close that the Hezbollah branch in Iran proper recently declared it would unleash militant attacks against Israelis and Americans around the world if given the order by Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. (Tehran insists that Hezbollah is not an arm of official policy.)
We have previously discussed the possibility that Hezbollah might be moved to seize hostages or engage in other militant acts, given the pressure the Israelis now are bringing to bear. There is some question, of course, as to whether Iran might be involved in future militant operations -- and if so, what assets it might use and the modalities that would apply.
An Organizational Model
There is a division of labor of sorts in the way that Iran manages its foreign assets: The IRGC (which is led by a professional military officer with strong ideological credentials as an Islamist) oversees the Lebanese Hezbollah, while MOIS (which almost always is headed by a cleric) manages militant operatives and groups in other parts of the Muslim world -- Afghanistan, Pakistan, Azerbaijan, India. Moreover, MOIS also maintains contacts among the *****e immigrant populations in non-Muslim countries, including those in the West.
It also is important to note that radical *****e Islamist ideology is only one factor that shapes Tehran's decisions. Ethnicity and nationalism also play an important role in Iran's dealings with *****e allies of Arab, South Asian and other descent. The Persians claim a rich cultural heritage, which they view as superior to that of the Arabs. This attitude impacts the level of trust and cooperation between the Iranians and other *****e groups -- including Hezbollah -- when it comes to sensitive international operations. It is little wonder, then, that the Lebanese organization's sphere of operations does not extend much beyond the Levant.
It follows that Hezbollah is a useful tool for Iran in its dealings with Israel, but in few other areas. However, Iranian intelligence has cultivated numerous groups that can serve its interests in other parts of the world, and it maintains contact with these groups through MOIS operatives placed in diplomatic posts.
A History of Cooperation
Though it has been many years since Hezbollah carried out significant attacks beyond the Middle East, the participation of MOIS agents in some of those attacks is worthy of note. Investigations into the 1988 hijacking of Kuwait Airways Flight 422 out of Bangkok and two bombings in Buenos Aires -- in 1992 and 1994 -- both revealed involvement by MOIS, coordinating with local Hezbollah operatives. However, to provide plausible deniability, the hijacking and bomb teams were deployed from outside the targeted country; the assets in place were used to conduct preoperational surveillance on potential targets.
Up close, what this would mean is that the MOIS officer at the Iranian embassy in the target country or city would maintain close contact with the Hezbollah cells in his area or responsibility. Given the rules of intelligence work, an "official asset" like a diplomat is usually under suspicion and surveillance as an intelligence officer (or IO); therefore, less-prominent Hezbollah members can be used to case potential targets. In a situation where a MOIS agent is believed to be under such tight surveillance that he cannot function effectively, the Iranians might call on the services of a clandestine MOIS agent instead. In the case of the 1992 bombing of the Israeli embassy in Buenos Aires, the MOIS officer was the Iranian cultural attache, who oversaw the operation from the safety of his embassy office. The Argentines eventually declared seven embassy employees as "persona non grata" due to suspected connections to the bombing.
Upon receiving a "go" order for an operation -- such as assassinations of Iranian dissidents or the kidnappings of Western diplomatic and intelligence personnel (for instance, CIA station chief William F. Buckley in 1984 and U.S. Marine Lt. Col. William R. Higgins in 1988) -- activity levels at the embassy spike. The role of MOIS frequently would be to provide the cash or supply weapons or materials needed for an attack carried out by its "militant assets." In some countries, such as Britain (where Hezbollah bombed a Jewish charity in 1994), it can be difficult to obtain items like blasting caps and explosives; these can be supplied with the protection of a diplomatic pouch.
Many MOIS intelligence operatives have been educated in the United States or in Britain, wear nice suits, are multilingual and move easily in Western social circles -- unlike the IRGC operatives in Lebanon, who, socially speaking, are rougher around the edges. The combination of their brains and Hezbollah's willingness to pursue martyrdom can produce highly formidable capabilities.
With Hezbollah under attack in Lebanon and Iran unable to send significant reinforcements, there is some possibility that Hezbollah might resort to staging an attack abroad as a way of countering the Israeli assault. If so, it is highly likely that operatives already are on the move; the organization has been known to use "off the shelf" operational plans in the past, and its targeting information and surveillance would need to be updated -- regardless of whether an order to strike is actually issued. It is reasonable to believe that Hezbollah would find it advantageous to coordinate with MOIS again, as in past operations. Whether the Iranians would see events through the same lens, however, is much less clear. Tehran might cooperate in an attack only if it is willing to seriously escalate the current conflict in the Middle East -- which, given its many interests in the region, does not appear so far to be the case.
Send questions or comments on this article to analysis@stratfor.com.
links and illustrations not included since we cannot post html.
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To my utter surprize, I find myself rather on line with Lazs.
Now the things are getting clearer. While I disagree with Lazs that the Lebanese are "allowing" the Hizbollah to launch rockets etc, - they at least are:
1. Sloppy in preventing it.
2. Taking their side when the stuff goes sour.
This can be deeper than it seems, and perhaps fuelled by Israeli hating outsiders, like Iran. Because there is no way that the Lebanese army can take on the Israelis. On a war scale, the Israelis are routing them in a matter of days..unless....something else.
While the Israelis are today causing the most casualties, they are responding to a sticky threat and terrorism who's planners dont have any respect for what is generally referred to as "collateral damage".
Well, it can be described in many ways, but although "terrorism" and "collateral damage" are both gritty concepts, there is still a long way between them.
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Oh, from Lazs:
"How would you take care of the hez-ebola virus if you were Israel? They are firing rockets and making cross border raids and hiding in the midst of a very willing population of a country that encourages them to do whatever they want... even gives them political power."
A very well put question. :aok
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Wonder what Hezbollah means when they say they'll have some surprises for Israel? Chemical weapons?
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I will go further..... I will wager that if the lebonese government denounced the terrorist hez-ebola virus to the world and swore that they would do everything to try to stop the terrorists from attacking a soveriengn nation of Israel...
If they allowed the jews to help them and work with them to put an end to the ebolas.....
My firm belief is that the jews would instantly stop targeting hez-ebloa virus centers and do some surgical work with the legitimate lebonese government.
If the lebonese refuse to do so then one can only assume that they are working in concert with the virus.
lazs
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Angus,
I have to agree with Laz about the Lebonese military allowing hezbolah to operate at will in their country.
To illustrate. If there was a radical militant group in the US (and there are several, ie. aryan nation for one and other hate nutjobs) that went to the area near the border of Mexico and started firing rockets into Mexico, the US govt. would be immediately reacting to shut this down. Hell look at the reaction to the minutemen just doing patroling of the border and they didn't have rockets to fire.
In this case hezboloah seems to be able to operate at will inside lebonon and there aren't even any signs the Lebonese military is even patroling their own territory to look for them. I don't think anyone can deny there have been hundreds of rockets fired from Lebanon into Isreal and the folks taking credit for it are the hezbolah. If the lebonese govt. gave a rats posterior about stopping this why are they not even patroling their own territory and doing something to stop it. Now I have seen news reports that they will come into the conflict on the side of hezbolah if Isreal attacks in force. Sounds like tacit support if not direct support to me.
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exactly mav.... Imagine now if you will that the aryan brotherhood was firing missles into mexico and...
That there were a high percentage of AB's in congress and in political power. It would be pretty hard to divorce ourselves from their actions would it not? How do you think the world would react to that happening here?
And... for nelson.... I would not allow the AB to launch from my house... I would move if they did or if their headquarters were 3 houses down.
lazs
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Nononono..you'd gun them Lazs :D
Anyway, as we disagree many times, I agree mostly with you Lazs and Mav. But please put that Nelson to Nilsen will you, - you'd hate it if it went to "Mavis" and "Lazy" from his hand, and there'd be the skuzzy wand ;)
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I'm not sure that the Lebanonese military could effectively patrol southern Lebanon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Lebanon_Army
http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2006/060303-lebanon-military.htm
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Okay, they probably could.
"The Lebanese army has grown from 35,000 to 70,000 since the end of Lebanon's 1975-90 civil war, far outnumbering Hezbollah's estimated 6,000 fighters. But its troops lack guerrilla battle experience and religious zeal. The army has no fixed wing aircraft and its helicopters are equipped only with machine guns."
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/world/4054122.html
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angus.. have you seen how my spelling is? nelson is just eaisr.
I am glad we agree on this. It would not matter tho. The jews are our friends and I admire em. They are a bit of sanity ihn a region that I find to be filled with barbaric a holes.
lazs
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Originally posted by Elfie
Yep, Israel intends to kill civilians, thats why they dropped leaflets warning them to leave. :huh
If you are warned to leave an area because danger, life threatening danger.....is imminent, and you choose to NOT leave and you get hurt, or even deaded....who's fault is that? Yours and yours alone, no one elses.
Depends if you tell the civilians to leave or else near Marwaheen, and then the escaping car convoy is attacked by an Isreali F16 killing 20+
Tronsky
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Originally posted by -tronski-
Depends if you tell the civilians to leave or else near Marwaheen, and then the escaping car convoy is attacked by an Isreali F16 killing 20+
Tronsky
Second paragraph and the link tells the story as we know it so far. Civilians were told to leave, but they were not attacked as they fled Marwaheen. Read on.
Already been covered in another post:
This one is safe, no gory pictures.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5184122.stm
So far only one side of the story has been told here. Did those Israeli pilots attack those vehicles knowing they held civilians? Had that area been deemed clear of civilians and declared a *free fire zone* because they thought all the civilians were gone? We dont know the answers to any of those questions or many others yet.
You make it sound like as soon as the Lebanese left their homes and were peacefully leaving that the Israelis attacked them. That isnt what happened at all. They were told to leave and were also told they only had hours to do so. They left and headed for the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon base for shelter and were refused entry because the UN couldnt confirm that they were ordered to leave their homes. At some point after leaving the UN base civilian vehicles were attacked by Israeli air units. I have seen reports of either an F-16 or a helicopter being the attacker.
I'm sure we'll hear more in the coming days. If that Israeli pilot(s) is/are guilty of deliberately attacking civilians I'm sure Israel will pursue punishment, they want to be the good guys in this fight. For the moment alot of us still feel they are. The UN also shares some of the blame for this tragedy because of their refusal to allow those people in.
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i just heard on tv that it cost a cab ride $500 in lebanon....here people get free hotel rooms, if they come to tel-aviv from the north..
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caligula... best of luck to you and yours. Know that I and most Americans support you and your people in their struggle and think that you are doing the right thing.
I admire your peoples courage.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
caligula... best of luck to you and yours. Know that I and most Americans support you and your people in their struggle and think that you are doing the right thing.
I admire your peoples courage.
lazs
thank you,it is much appreciated :aok
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Teh polling data.
http://www.pollingreport.com/israel.htm
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I have a question here.
Can anyone tell me what steps hezbolah took to warn the civilian population of Haifa to get shelter of leave before attacking, at any time?
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Originally posted by Maverick
I have a question here.
Can anyone tell me what steps hezbolah took to warn the civilian population of Haifa to get shelter of leave before attacking, at any time?
they have been telling us that they`ll come to kill us one day,for quiet a long time...
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Caligula I will always believe the Israeli's are the good guys in the Middle East. You and your family/friends stay safe over there.
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are the french,germans, italians...etc ready to jump in this mess?
if they think they are,they better bring loads of ammo, and the will to use it...and get some tips on house to house,room to room fighting.
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Interesting poll thrawn... pretty much says what I thought it would say... the people of America are behind the jews in this.
Kinda funny tho that the poll says that most people don't like the way Bush is hanling the situation but then...... when the way he is hanling it is broken down into poll questions.... everyone wants to do exactly what he is doing.
lazs
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I'm now back for a few days leave after I've been called to the army (air force) over a week ago.
Depends if you tell the civilians to leave or else near Marwaheen, and then the escaping car convoy is attacked by an Isreali F16 killing 20+
The launches of rockets to the coastal cities of Naharia, Akko (acre) and Haifa are mainly from the vicinity of Tzor (Tyr). One of the reasons for this is that in Tyr there's a UN base and the refugees are flocking there. What the Hizballa is trying to achieve is a second "Kanna village". In "grapes of wrath" operation Israeli artillery returned fire to a lauch site located by artillary radar. That site turned out to be just outside the fense of a UN base with hundreds of refugees hiding inside. You can guess what happened.
I don't know about that particular incident but vehicles heading out of the region (general north direction) are not normally attacked. Vehicles driving in the opposite direction take a great risk. If that car was wandering around Tyr when rockets were launched and the airforce was hunting the launchers, than it's too bad.
In recent days the UN has arranged convoys going N from Tyr along the coast. The airfoce takes great care not to attack these convoys that the UN announce. It does not disturb Hizballa to launch rocket at these times though. In the following days, as refugees and the UN move out of Tyr I guess we'll see more and more attacks in that region.
We destroyed a lot of rocket trucks and launchers in south Lebanon. All that I know of save one were in the outskirts of villages and town or even between the buildings. The one exception was in a narrow ravine some distance from a village. The ravine is now a valley.
While the Hizballa still have enough portable launchers, the number of quality truck launchers for the bigger rockets is getting low. The airforce is also getting more efficient in hunting the launchers and in many of the massive launches the rocket truck is counter attacked within minutes. Their volleys become much less acurate and a lot of the rockets fall into the see or in fields. Still, enough fall in the cities too.
As for Beirut, the pictures on TV are deciving. Only a very specific region in the south city was bombed (the Shii). The rest of the city is pretty much undamaged, though I imagine the population is terrified. One very probable possibility is that Nasralla and the Hizballa leaders are taking refuge in the Maroon (the Cristian) part of the city they know Israel will not bomb.
The suffering and the damage caused to Lebanon is un fortunate. Lebanon is the neibour I had the highest expectations of, as it is the most advanced and open to the west country of them. In addition, Israel has no dispute or claims from Lebanon (except for keeping their border quite). However, Israelies will not die just because Lebanonese could not be bothered to deal with Hizballa. When we spot a launcher we hit it. Saving one life on our side is worth the moral price of killing a few civilians on the other side if the launcher is in a town.
Lebanonese are capable people with a brain. They can cry to the world how much they suffer or they can get off their bellybutton and do something to restrain Hizballa. The Lebanon army (not "south Lebanon army" someone linked a wiki page about. This army doesn't exist since 2000) has not been attacked by Israel except their coastal radars since they were aiding Hizballa. Lebanon goverment has still done nothing and keep its army idle. OK, not completely idle, it fires AAA at Israeli planes just out of bordom I suppose.
Bozon
btw, by the time it took me to write this I was interrupted 3 times by rocket attacks (I live in Haifa). It does gives a great satisfaction when we deliver 250 kg explosives on a launcher that has just fired at my home. I hate Hizballa for making me do this and feel good about it.
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Glad to see you are ok Bozon, I kinda figured you were called since we didnt hear from you.
Give those hizbholla launchers hell.
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
are the french,germans, italians...etc ready to jump in this mess?
The current UNIFIL bananas are mostly Italian and Norwegians, plus some other nationalities. I don't blame them for being worthless - I wouldn't risk myself for someone elses war. Last time they squeeked two Norwegians were sent home in bandages with the blessing of Hizballa. They did not come here to get killed, they came to get a pay check, see distant lands and feel good about themselves.
The only ones with any legitimacy and interest to keep an armed potent force there are the Lebanonese themselves. Any foreign armed force will be a justified target for Hizballa and the likes of.
Bozon
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Originally posted by bozon
The current UNIFIL bananas are mostly Italian and Norwegians, plus some other nationalities. I don't blame them for being worthless - I wouldn't risk myself for someone elses war. Last time they squeeked two Norwegians were sent home in bandages with the blessing of Hizballa. They did not come here to get killed, they came to get a pay check, see distant lands and feel good about themselves.
The only ones with any legitimacy and interest to keep an armed potent force there are the Lebanonese themselves. Any foreign armed force will be a justified target for Hizballa and the likes of.
Bozon
Dont fortget that they are workin under UN mandate, and are not equipped or allowed to enter armed conflict. They are observers. bananas eh?
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a few quotes:
the Israelis have dropped leaflets, warning the civilians to leave, no way the Israelis are thugs. That dubious honor belongs to the people lobbing 122mm rockets into cities that have no military targets.
Haifa is getting the bigger, dealier, 220mm rockets designed to hit population ceters.
Made in Syria btw.
And no doubt Hizbollah argue that Shebaa Farms has still not been handed back to Lebanon, thus Israel has not yet withdrawn from Lebanon, so Israel is a legitimate military target etc etc.
Do you know what Shab'a farms are? it's less than a km squared area on the slopes of mount Hermon used as summer farms by Lebanonses farmers in old times. It lays in ruins for over 50 years since Syria did not allow the farmers to come there. There was a dispute between Syria an Lebanon about this (and other) territories (all this way before it was captured by Israel in 1967).
The UN has marked the border in 2000 and decided that this was considered a Syrian land according to the old maps and so marked it as part of the land captured by Israel in 1967. Israel followed UN orders to the letter, including the stupid idea to run the border through the middle of Rajar village - Syrian village that was not conquered by Israel in 1967 but asked to be occupied since it didn't want to be part of Lebanon. They are Israeli citizens now btw.
The UN are a bright bunch.
If Lebanon has claims about this territory they can go to the UN. Israel even announced that if Syria states that this is Lebanon land they will get it (like this ever going to happen...). This is obviously an excuse used by Hizballa. You give it to them, they'll find another.
Hizbollah have little green headbands
Hamas (Palestinians) have green headbands. Hizballa color is yellow.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Dont fortget that they are workin under UN mandate, and are not equipped or allowed to enter armed conflict. They are observers. bananas eh?
No offense, my point was that no foriegner will fight this war. They were good observes as they observed Hizballa shelling Israeli outposts while providing security for them as airstrikes and artillery are not allowed close to UN forces.
The Hizballa troops that kidnaped the 3 Israeli soldiers 5 years ago (the soldiers died in the attack) approached in UN vehicle and uniform.
I don't blame them, but you can understand why we do not think very highly of them and would like to see them gone.
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Bozon... every hand wringing, hez-ebola lover here is a hypocrite.
If their homes were being rocketed from a city in the bordering country to their nation they would be happy to see that entire city leveled and every man woman and child slaughtered.
They mostly come from weak little socialist countries with no diversity that never are critical of themselves but constantly nit pick every other country in the world.. Their impotence makes them mean. They cling to the UN as their only say in what happens in the world.
pitiful little twerps... They don't have a tenth of the courage that the Iraeli people do and it makes them ashamed and defensive. I also believe that a lot of it is your-0-peean anti semitism rearing it's ugly head in these oh so enlightened countries.
lazs
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Originally posted by bozon
No offense, my point was that no foriegner will fight this war. They were good observes as they observed Hizballa shelling Israeli outposts while providing security for them as airstrikes and artillery are not allowed close to UN forces.
The Hizballa troops that kidnaped the 3 Israeli soldiers 5 years ago (the soldiers died in the attack) approached in UN vehicle and uniform.
I don't blame them, but you can understand why we do not think very highly of them and would like to see them gone.
What shouold they have done? Ofcourse the hiz would get close to UN forces for safty. They are cowards and smart enough to realize that they would be safe there. If those troops could shoot them than their role would have changed in an instant and could no longer have remained there. Ofcourse maybe they should not have been there in ther first place but that would have been and double edged sword.
P.S. Norway has not had troops in UNIFIL since 99, and its not like they got rich from beeing there. At best they would prolly make 80-90.000 USD a year (current exchange values) That is only slighty more than I made my last year in the Navy (and I was at home)
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Originally posted by lazs2
Bozon... every hand wringing, hez-ebola lover here is a hypocrite.
If their homes were being rocketed from a city in the bordering country to their nation they would be happy to see that entire city leveled and every man woman and child slaughtered.
They mostly come from weak little socialist countries with no diversity that never are critical of themselves but constantly nit pick every other country in the world.. Their impotence makes them mean. They cling to the UN as their only say in what happens in the world.
pitiful little twerps... They don't have a tenth of the courage that the Iraeli people do and it makes them ashamed and defensive. I also believe that a lot of it is your-0-peean anti semitism rearing it's ugly head in these oh so enlightened countries.
lazs
.. nice try kid :D
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Originally posted by Nilsen
P.S. Norway has not had troops in UNIFIL since 99, and its not like they got rich from beeing there. At best they would prolly make 80-90.000 USD a year (current exchange values) That is only slighty more than I made my last year in the Navy (and I was at home)
That incident I talked about was in 1999 or 2000 around the time Israel widrew from S. Lebanon. Don't remember if before or after.
Do I read that right? 90k USD a year ?! :eek:
That's about what I make - in Shekels gawd damit... No wonder they were driving Porches and spending so much money in Haifa and northern Israel pubs.
When I was in the army, for 3 years I got about 80 USD a month to buy waffels in the Cantine. I want my 3 years back or 270,000 USD :mad:
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I don't know if its been covered here or not, but it's pretty clear that Israel is acting within the articles of the Geneva Convention and Rules of War, in attacking military objectives that are situated among human shields, so long as certain requirements are met, such as giving civilians advance notice. See Part 2, in link below
Rules of War (http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/geneva07.htm)
There is a concept floated recently by Attorney Alan Derschowitz, with whom I agree on almost nothing, concerning differing degrees of "civilianness" - a totally innocent person on one extreame, a person with some level of complicity in the middle, and on the other extreme, a person who is non-military, but nevertheless is complicit in hostile acts against the enemy. I think it fits the situation face by Israel very well.
Israel will be the first to do a nuclear strike, and there will be mulitiple targets. Most of the world wouldn't mind if Israel goes down, so long as it goes down quietly, without using nukes. Aint gonna happen. So Israel gets backed up against the wall, and the world refuses to help. It is easy to predict what WILL happen.
Its ironic that the Europeans and others are taking pot shots at Israel, but none of lthem are willilng to step up to the plate to contribute to a buffer force in Lebenon, USA and Britain included, though for understandable reasons.
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Originally posted by bozon
That incident I talked about was in 1999 or 2000 around the time Israel widrew from S. Lebanon. Don't remember if before or after.
Do I read that right? 90k USD a year ?! :eek:
That's about what I make - in Shekels gawd damit... No wonder they were driving Porches and spending so much money in Haifa and northern Israel pubs.
When I was in the army, for 3 years I got about 80 USD a month to buy waffels in the Cantine. I want my 3 years back or 270,000 USD :mad:
Regular conscripts that serves only at home for their 12-18 moth mandatory service got/get around 20$ per day. Those that go abroad are done with their mandatory service and are employed by the miltary. They get an average salary and a risk add-on if they are abroad in some hot spot. We are a high-cost country so 80-90k $ a year is not that much. The dollar is also fairly cheap vs our currency so you cant really compare... the point is that if they did it for the money there would be safer ways of getting that at home.
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Originally posted by Gunthr
I don't know if its been covered here or not, but it's pretty clear that Israel is acting within the articles of the Geneva Convention and Rules of War, in attacking military objectives that are situated among human shields, so long as certain requirements are met, such as giving civilians advance notice. See Part 2, in link below
Rules of War (http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/geneva07.htm)
There is a concept floated recently by Attorney Alan Derschowitz, with whom I agree on almost nothing, concerning differing degrees of "civilianness" - a totally innocent person on one extreame, a person with some level of complicity in the middle, and on the other extreme, a person who is non-military, but nevertheless is complicit in hostile acts against the enemy. I think it fits the situation face by Israel very well.
Israel will be the first to do a nuclear strike, and there will be mulitiple targets. Most of the world wouldn't mind if Israel goes down, so long as it goes down quietly, without using nukes. Aint gonna happen. So Israel gets backed up against the wall, and the world refuses to help. It is easy to predict what WILL happen.
Its ironic that the Europeans and others are taking pot shots at Israel, but none of lthem are willilng to step up to the plate to contribute to a buffer force in Lebenon, USA and Britain included, though for understandable reasons.
Who do you think would be Israels targets for those nukes?
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well, just based on my experience at playing chess :rolleyes: I would guess Iran, if Israel perceives that Iran is getting very close to making a nuclear weapon. Their nuclear facilities are spread out all over the country... so it could involve multiple tactical nukes. Beyond that, who knows?