Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Paxil on July 16, 2006, 06:52:56 PM
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Went to the Oregon Airshow yesterday... I live less than 1 mile from Hillsboro Airport, wonderful day with my two boys... today and the way back from a trip to my sisters as we neared the airport... huge puff of black smoke shoots into the air (airshow is on today too)... (less then 15 minutes ago this happened) Very bad sign... appears that buildings on the ground are involved... I had to drive around area of the crash but it is surrounded by business and houses/apartments.
I flipped on the airshow radio and they said it was a Hawker Hunter that went down. My prayers to the pilot and the people on the ground. I will share more news when I hear it.
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I just got back from the airshow also. Went back to my friends house off 185th which is a mile from the crash site. Looks like, according to the news, it took out a couple homes. Haven't heard of casualties except for the pilot.
-SLICER
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I was gonna go there today,but got up too late. :(
hope noone on the ground died too.
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Nothing on news here, please keep posting notices about it.
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Residential area for sure from shots on TV. Like SLCR mentioned... looks like a few homes involved. I have always kept it in the back of mind being so dang close to the airfield that someday something bad would happen around here. The area of the crash is less than 1 mile from my house.
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TV is saying 3 homes hit... 2 on fire. No word on the residents.
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Damn.:(
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Some kids selling raffle tickets knocked on the door of the house that took the main hit a minute before the plane hit it, and no one answered.
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Wow thats scary, luckily the kids werent running a minute behind....
:(
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Reports are the home owner arrived 5 minutes after the crash.
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link:
plane crash news (http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_071606_news_hillsboro_plane_crash.1c697be1.html)
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http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/07/16/oregon.plane.crash.ap/index.html
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Man, three houses destroyed! Those peoples days sure were ruined
As for the pilot, of course its sad that he died. But he was a lucky bastage just for getting to be an airshow pilot, you can bet he went out doing something he enjoyed.
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Nothing will stick a knife in your heart like watching something like that happen. I saw something similar in 2001 at point Mugu NAS.
Thoughts and Prayers to those involved...
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unless i missed it I didnt see any reports on wether the pilot got out or not.
anybody else have any info ?
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Confirmed dead. The plane was part of the static display... pilot took off to fly it home in California, was going to do a pass over the field before departing but never made it.
Funny the dude on CNN said it was doing a loop and couldn't pull up. It wasn't doing a loop... I wonder what makes people say stuff like that.
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They say things like that because they don't know what they are talking about. Only someone who did not have any idea what they were talking about would say or think that aerobatics were being performed over a residential area.
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i saw a father/daughter wingwalking team crash in Concord NH in 91 or 92. was sad.
to the pilot and his family.
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Ah yes the infamous sputtering jet engine. Those pilots and them revving their engines...when will they bring restrictor plates to aviation.
OTOH the pilot was said to be an Attorney. If I read the fine print there it's an owner/pilot in his toy that he's perfectly capable of flying until something goes wrong at which time he dies.
Hopefully he didn't take anyone with him.
Also...if I crash flying in an airshow. I'm not going to think to myself how great it is to be going out doing what I love. I'm going to be pissed and frantically trying to make myself not die doing what I'm quickly learning to hate.
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They said that the pilot was an attourney, but he had over 4000 hours and was certified as a trainer. He was trying to crash it into a field, almost made it but ran out of speed.
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I was born in Hillsboro. Down in Sacramento now. Did that plane go down around the Jr. High area? Looks familiar.
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Too bad... Apparently the pilot tried to clear the residential neighborhood, but ran out of altitude.
The aircraft was a Hawker Hunter, a vintage second generation jet fighter.
Very sad...
My regards,
Widewing
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The whole story...
Pilot of a bright blue Hawker Hunter (1951 vintage) took off with the intention of making a single pass before heading back home to SoCal. On takeoff his engine failed to produce full power; he was wobbling and dipping quite a lot after lifting off, apparently trying to control the aircraft on the edge of a stall. He proceeded through a right hand turn of about 180ş, straightened up on course, and the engine died. It could be loss of fuel, broken pump; who knows. The Hunter slowed up and stalled, mushing in slightly short of a field the pilot probably attempted to belly-land in. It tipped right, fell off on the right wing and impacted one house. So far one house is nothing more than a cinder, though no one was home at the time of the crash. Three near-by homes (neighbors) range from slight damage, either heat or debris impact, to one entire side up in smoke. Two people were in their homes at the time of impact (given on local news as 4:28pm) but not injured.
Aircraft was not fitted with an ejection seat that functioned (FAA regs apparently) nor did the pilot elect to bail out. Local video taken at the airport shows the a good portion of the flight, including takeoff and crash.
One local station hounded over this man's death like it was a carnival. May those tele-prompter jockies rot in hell.
:cry
A damn shame, for both pilot and aircraft.
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Flakbait [Delta6]
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Originally posted by Golfer
Ah yes the infamous sputtering jet engine. Those pilots and them revving their engines...when will they bring restrictor plates to aviation.
OTOH the pilot was said to be an Attorney. If I read the fine print there it's an owner/pilot in his toy that he's perfectly capable of flying until something goes wrong at which time he dies.
Hopefully he didn't take anyone with him.
Also...if I crash flying in an airshow. I'm not going to think to myself how great it is to be going out doing what I love. I'm going to be pissed and frantically trying to make myself not die doing what I'm quickly learning to hate.
Hopefully some one who wasn't there, didn't see it and only has 3rd hand information will be just as generous with your obituary as well.
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Here's a clip:
crash vid (http://www.kptv.com/video/9525627/index.html)
He could of bailed but looks like he wanted to set it down in a nearby field.
-SLICER
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He overflew the field... he was heading South over Cornell toward Intel and there was nothing but residential and industrial from where he hit and where he was headed. There was a tiny field to the east of him but honestly... I think he was stalled at that point... no chance to make it go where he wanted. Thank God everyone on the ground was OK.
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Originally posted by Golfer
Ah yes the infamous sputtering jet engine. Those pilots and them revving their engines...when will they bring restrictor plates to aviation.
OTOH the pilot was said to be an Attorney. If I read the fine print there it's an owner/pilot in his toy that he's perfectly capable of flying until something goes wrong at which time he dies.
Hopefully he didn't take anyone with him.
Also...if I crash flying in an airshow. I'm not going to think to myself how great it is to be going out doing what I love. I'm going to be pissed and frantically trying to make myself not die doing what I'm quickly learning to hate.
No pilot will ever match your prowess Golfer...:huh
What a **** of a response. I hope no one calls your skills in to question if you ever dump one in. Sleep well.
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Bad news :(
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Another reason why I'll never fly a single engine jet without an ejection seat... They make really crappy gliders and don't fail as gracefully as piston engines. I strongly dislike the FAA regulations on ejection seats, but I also understand that if the FAA allowed them, then we'd see just as many deaths from the seat popping at the wrong time as we currently see from guys who have no hope of getting out when the engine dies.
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Seriously I know real flying is different in a game, but I have landed some shot to hell planes in AH and Il 2 and one of my favorite things to do in FS2k was random engine failures. Why do so many engine failures in real result in death, my thoughts in ah when the engine goes is a flat space that I have speed to reach. That guy took off bad all that wobbling he had to know something was up,.
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Pooh,
The games are significantly more forgiving than RL. Like 99% more forgiving. Plus jets typically weigh more and have higher wing loading than prop planes so when they are much worse gliders than most prop planes. That means they glide fast and have very poor low speed gliding maneuverability, and they have a lot of energy to dissipate before coming to a stop.
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He may have ingested a bird on T/O.
Very sad.
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Originally posted by eagl
Pooh,
The games are significantly more forgiving than RL. Like 99% more forgiving. Plus jets typically weigh more and have higher wing loading than prop planes so when they are much worse gliders than most prop planes. That means they glide fast and have very poor low speed gliding maneuverability, and they have a lot of energy to dissipate before coming to a stop.
Oh I know all that including trees and terrian and all that, but it is the mindset, you switch to everything going fine, to landing this shotup crate so some fool doesnt get a kill on you like that. It is the mind set I am saying, why private pilots dont train for the unexpected. In my life everytime I saw a fire extinguisher I read the label and instructions, and sure enough about a month ago on my delivery route, someones house caught fire and the had their garden hose, but I just went into automatic mode and put the fire out with my extingiusher. I didnt even think about what I did until I was driving down the road later
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Dunno about "most" private pilots, but I sure did, for a number of reasons. First off, I read a lot of flying history and pilot biographies, and they were always crashing here and there so I sort of grew up thinking that was normal. Second, my civilian instructor kept doing stuff like pulling the power and asking me "what now?". Third, a bunch of accidents near San Diego around the time I was getting my license kept me always thinking about what I'd do if things went wrong.
As a military pilot, we continually train for emergency procedures so our initial responses should come fairly naturally due to the training. That said, engine failure on takeoff is really really bad and it doesn't matter if there are trees, houses, or even empty fields in front of you, chances are you're gonna pack it in hard no matter how good you are. If you're in a jet and don't have the option to eject, you're very often as good as dead the second the engine fails.
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Hindsight being 20-20, I think the second his engine failed, he should have aimed his plane straight down (towards a non-housed area) and bailed. But who knows, did he even have a parachute on?
Man, being strapped in a engineless fighter jet is about the most dangerous thing in the world. You have thousands of pounds of of explosives on board (fuel), and all that aluminum turns into knives the second you impact.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Hindsight being 20-20, I think the second his engine failed, he should have aimed his plane straight down (towards a non-housed area) and bailed. But who knows, did he even have a parachute on?
How quickly do you think someone could unstrap from a jet, open or blow the canopy, climb out of the cramped cockpit, and get a chute open with ample altitude left? We're not talking "hit ENTER 3 times" here.
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Originally posted by Kurt
No pilot will ever match your prowess Golfer...:huh
What a **** of a response. I hope no one calls your skills in to question if you ever dump one in. Sleep well.
If I take a perfectly flyable airplane and ball it up there's cause to question. Now that there are some details to the story emerging things change a bit.
I'm a cynic, a heck of a cynic especially when it comes to unqualified pilots flying very high performance airplanes into the ground. Nothing more makes me mad than reading a story about some wealthy ******* who couldn't fly out of a wet paper bag burying an airplane into some homes. It's great that they can afford to keep them flying but that doesn't mean they should be the ones flying them.
With the details in the posts prior to mine combined with the effects of a hearty amount of alcohol you have an unfiltered and unbiased opinion. It's staying. No point sugar coating to make others feel warm and fuzzy.
The story I just read stated that the owner of the airplane is an aviation attorney. Unsure if he was flying but pretty likely as he has a history of flying going back to the 60's. If this is air force training then he's one of the few guys qualified to fly the airplane. The old jet technology is a far cry away from computers and even advanced designs with pushrod and pulley flight control systems.
Here is the excerpt from the story According to information on his law firm's Web site, Guilford has been flying planes since 1961. But authorities would not say if he was piloting the plane Sunday. His law firm, Baum Hedlund, did not return a page Sunday.
I have no business in a Hunter and someone without extensive training in a jet from the same era has no business flying one either. This includes F-86's, MiG-15's and the like. This isn't because getting the airplane up and down is that much harder its because of a number of things. It's not because they're that hard to fly. It's because of how it flys due to design and the age of the systems. Things break on 50+ year old airplanes especially ones that are subjected to regular flights with fair amounts of G forces applied to the airframe. I know of more than a few 30 year old business jets that don't go a flight without something being broken and they have never been subjected to military use. Many other airplanes are the same way.
As far as my attitude. I'm not the only one to see both sides of a fatal accident. I watched a friend I now consider a hero take his airplane with a failed engine away from an airshow crowd which cost him his life. I've also watched another guy hot dogging on takeoff plant an Extra into the ground doing a split-s on departure. I'd flown with him numerous times when he had a Pitts and the extra was new to him. I've seen stupid and noble and the stereotypical "rich guy in the toy" or more typical "doctor in a bonanza" have killed more people than engine failures.
With a few details it doesn't look like that, but the NTSB report will provide a probable cause, factual report and list pilot experience. Flying a deadstick jet low to the ground leaves very few options. He either did great with what he had to work with and didn't hurt any innocent people, or he did a lousy job and took a working airplane into a house.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Hindsight being 20-20, I think the second his engine failed, he should have aimed his plane straight down (towards a non-housed area) and bailed. But who knows, did he even have a parachute on?
Man, being strapped in a engineless fighter jet is about the most dangerous thing in the world. You have thousands of pounds of of explosives on board (fuel), and all that aluminum turns into knives the second you impact.
Hunters are single engine airplanes, shrimp.
Just saw Dux's response. That pretty much covers it.
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Originally posted by Golfer
the NTSB report will provide a probable cause, factual report and list pilot experience.
And until they do just that your kneejerk reaction is just unkind and crude.
The accident I saw at Pt Mugu was an example of a very well trained pilot trying hard to save a plane (F4 Phantom). This guy had thousands of hours in the type. Navy report showed he had a history of hot dogging and ham fisting.
So yeah, it does happen that the wrong guy gets in the seat and gets killed. But for you to fly immediately to that conclusion is really a disservice to all pilots. You are telling the public that you think most pilots are not properly trained and are unsafe. The reason I think you are saying that about MOST pilots is because if you believed MOST pilots are safe and well trained your immediate reaction would not be to flog this guys reputation as you did. I'm a pilot, you're a pilot.. We both know lots of pilots. Most of the pilots I know make sound decisions, are skilled and I do indeed trust them with my life. I just think your on shakey ground assuming we are dealing with an idiot in this crash.
And if you believe that about MOST pilots, should we not assume that the odds are also against you and your judgement at the stick? If you don't believe the system trains competent pilots, then why would you believe you might not make the same error? And why should we assume the same system trained you better?
Lord knows I've flown off the handle in this board plenty of times, so I'm not going to try to roast you too much on this (hope I'll get the same favor someday in return :aok )
I just think its kinda cruel to assume the guy was a putz. Maybe he was, but lets wait and find out rather than just burning his reputation based on assumptions about who owns what kind of plane.
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Golfer they have a video up of the crash. The pilot tries to turn back to the airfield, but the plane doesn't have enough power to even maintain level flight (I think the engine had totally quit). Then when he runs out of airspeed, the plane sinks with a nose high angle of attack.
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AquaShrimp... if he would have tried a downwind landing instead of trying to go around in the pattern, who knows... might have made it. He took off toward farmland then turned back over the residential area to try for the landing. Considering he landed right on a house... might not have been a good move. Granted... it was in the middle of an air show... and F18's were on the end of the runway, I imagine a ton of radio traffic... confusion... worrying about hitting the crowd etc... not to mentioned a puttering engine and the not so boyish reflexes of a 73 year old. Thank God no one on the ground was hurt
to the pilot and hopefully they won't let that ruin future air shows.
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He turned *away* from farm land to try to make it to the runway? He must have been senile!
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Golfer's attitude is not untypical of many pilots and if I'm honest I share that view sometimes. More than once I've known pilots who were an accident waiting to happen and I've often heard others say the same thing about certain dead pilots, even friends. I have said it myself about a friend who died in a crash. He was doing something stupid and he got killed. Tom Wolfe's book; 'The Right Stuff' addresses that theme in his own colourful way. It's almost a defence mechanism. 'He failed I wouldn't have'. Only a few weeks ago a pilot I know was killed in a crash with another pilot. As the facts of the crash got out, the muttering started. The implication that he screwed up is on the agenda. One Instructor and a colleague of his said to me that it is very hard to get yourself killed in a light aircraft on a calm sunny day.
Having said that I think Golfer is being a little unfair to the pilot. It does look like engine failure and perhaps he had nowhere to go and stalled in. As we all know loss of power after take off is critical, particularly in a fast jet. Sometimes you can everything right and still die. It happens.
I'm not quite sure at the FAA's rationale on banning live ejection seats. The Brits allow them and surely they are often the most conservative. I suppose there might be a feeling that it would lead to pilots ejecting willy nilly and dumping jets into suburbs full of kids. But it does mean a death sentence for the pilot when those old blowjobs lose power.
No doubt the facts will out in due course.
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Sounds kind of like what happened to Bong.
I'm more than willing to give benefit of the doubt and say that the pilot was probably staying with his aircraft in an attempt to stear it away from civilian areas. May he rest in peace! My heart goes out to the pilot, his family and to everyone else affected by this tradgedy.
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No, ejection seats are very dangerous. Not when flying, they save your life. But its other people who get killed. You always hear stories about Air Force maintainers that have been killed when they inadvertantly launch the seat. And of course some civilians have been killed playing around on ex Soviet aircraft. Usually it just smashes the person on the hangar ceiling.
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This guy was at the Airshow and he has pictures of the Hawker Hunter (http://forum.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=messageboard.viewThread&entryID=20056092&groupID=100185503&adTopicID=18&Mytoken=94081975-A774-4988-8F7E47DE5E1C48F71644855343)
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It was a tragic thing to happen. Every year I work the air show on a crash truck provided by my fire station to supplement Hillsboro Fire. I have never seen a house so demolished. There at least 4 people that were minutes if not seconds from death, including 3 children on a swing. If there is a positive in this situation, other than now civilian casualties, it was that the pilot died very quickly, although his last thoughts were probably pretty brutal. One house was completely destroyed, another pretty much gutted. The third lost a deck, and the fourth house directly next to the house that took the plane was saved due to heroic work of my fellow firefighters who worked it. They will have to do some work in the attic and some cosmetic work with smoke removal, but that house will be fixed.
The plane broke into 3 main pieces, with the cockpit landing in the middle of the house. We found the pilot underneath the flooring of the bottom level about 10 feet from his seat. It wasnt pretty, but from what we could tell he did not know anything after impact. For a while, we were concerned that we would come across the occupants, because there were 2 cars in the garage and driveway, but were relieved to hear that the owner was at a garden show and was 20 minutes from the house when it was destroyed.
For the record, as far as we are concerned, the pilot knew he was in trouble on take off. He had two options, turn back to approach on runway 30 at hillsboro, or hit the open field 30 feet or so from the house he hit. As you probably can understand, a single engine jet is a lawn dart with a bad engine, so he was trying the impossible. It was incredible that he did not kills anyone else, and for that he should be remembered as a man who did not eject to save others.
FireAce
IAFF Local 1660
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It's sad for the pilot but I don't think he deserve a 'hero' status because:
- he didn't choose not to eject if his plane wasn't equipped with an ejection seat (correct me of I'm wrong).
- he crashed in houses, not in an open field. It was only pure luck that nobody else was hurt/killed.
Blue Skies for him anyway.
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Originally posted by Golfer
...I'm a cynic, a heck of a cynic...
Since you give the benefit of the doubt to guys who drive piston warbirds, I think you're more of a propulsion bigot.
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The plane did have an ejection system. Of course there is no way of knowing if it was operational or not since it was an older airplane and I am sure outside of military personnel there are not many places to use for maintaining it, but all the pieces were there for its operation.
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Thanks for posting the truth from the scene. It beats Hell out of opinions and conjecture.
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Well, seeing as how he was a lawyer, anybody given any thought to the idea that he *aimed* for the houses?
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was just looking here
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/AccList.asp?month=7&year=2006
to see if there was any information from the .gov yet, of course there was not.
maybe by the end of the week
i did notice that this is the 1st reported incident in Oregon this month.
comparing this with the multiple inicidents & multiple fatalities in california & washington, one can only conclude that Oregonians are better pilots
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Well, seeing as how he was a lawyer, anybody given any thought to the idea that he *aimed* for the houses?
I'm completely confused. Just what the Hell are you talking about? What the Hell is it that makes you think that he aimed for the houses because he was a lawyer? What reason could he possibly have for aiming for the houses? Maybe his firm would sue the developer for putting the houses there? What reason would anyone have for aiming for the houses, short of being a terrorist suicide pilot?
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Well, seeing as how he was a lawyer, anybody given any thought to the idea that he *aimed* for the houses?
I dislike lawyers about as much as anyone can or does. Even given that, your statement is simply astoundingly in poor taste. That's simply the nicest thing I can say about it, I had far more descriptive phrases in mind but Skuzzy would spank.
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Hey Skuzzy,
Is it just me or is it time to lock this one?
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If you can't laugh at my comment, I truely feel sorry for you. Taking it a step further, you probably have high blood pressure and lots of anger from your lack of sense of humor.
Shoot, now I'm laughing picturing Captain Virgil Hilts
behind a computer, face all red, teeth clinched, shaking with anger.
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Didn't take long for this to turn ugly did it?
For those of you who were not there, or might not know the layout, the pilot turned right after takeoff not only because that was what the traffic pattern was but if he had turned left he would have flown over the air show crowd with thousands of people closely packed and this tragedy could have turned out much worse. At this point, we don't know if the plane lost power during takeoff or when he was already in the pattern. It also appears that he was aiming for a field which he just missed by 30 feet. It all happened so fast that he had split seconds to make any decisions and I tend to think he did the best he could given the situation.
I was at the air show that day but left early and missed the crash by minutes. I drove right by the spot he crashed right before it happened. Haven't stopped thinking about it since.
For those who think this gentleman was just a lawyer, here's a quick bio on his life as a pilot.
PILOT EXPERIENCE
Ratings:
•Commercial rating
•Instrument rating
• He is the only FAA Authorized Instructor for the Hawker Hunter swept wing, transonic jet fighter; authorized to train pilots to fly this aircraft and recommend them to the FAA; and to requalify pilots after lapse of proficiency. He is also an Authorized Instructor for the Soko Galeb, F4U Corsair, Skyraider, Sea Fury, P-51 Mustang, T-28 and Spitfire.
Hours:
•4,000 + hours since 1961
•44 years as a licensed pilot
Aviation Activities - Past and Present:
•Chairman of the Board, Classic Jet Aircraft Association (promoting private operation of surplus military jet aircraft)
•Co-founder, Warbirds of America, an international organization dedicated to the preservation of military aircraft (presently a division of the Experimental Aircraft Association)
•Chief Pilot, Vice President, Trustee, Museum of Flying, Santa Monica, California
•Founder and President, Mustang Pilot's Club, Inc.
•Vice President, Supermarine Aviation, Ltd.
•Vice President, Liberty Aero Corporation
•Vice-President of NATO Aviation
•Participant since 1970 in Reno Air Races, Unlimited Class
•Counsel to Transonic Flight Test, Ltd., operating Folland Gnat Aircraft
•Counsel to Hunter Flight Test, Ltd., operating Hawker Hunter Jet Fighter Aircraft
Aircraft currently or previously owned:
•Owner/Pilot of a Soko Galeb G-2A Jet Fighter and Hawker Hunter Mk. 58 swept-wing British Fighter
•Former owner/pilot of: racing Corsair, "Blue Max"; P-51 Mustang (2); Hawker Sea Fury; Hawker Hunter T.8C & GA-ll
Qualified as Pilot-In-Command in:
•F4U Corsair (FG-1D, F4U-4, F4U-7)
•Spitfire (Mk IX & Mk XIV)
•F8F Bearcat
•P-51 Mustang
•T-6
•T-28
•AD Skyraider
•Hawker Sea Fury
•Soko Galeb
•Hawker Hunter
http://www.baumhedlundlaw.com/attorneys/robertguilford.htm
Looks like he could have taught even Golfer a thing or two.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
If you can't laugh at my comment, I truely feel sorry for you. Taking it a step further, you probably have high blood pressure and lots of anger from your lack of sense of humor.
Shoot, now I'm laughing picturing Captain Virgil Hilts
behind a computer, face all red, teeth clinched, shaking with anger.
I'm not mad. I don't like lawyers, as a rule I dislike them as much as anyone. I'm just confused, and trying to figure out what the Hell you're talking about. Completely confused. I have as sick as sense of humor as most anyone, but I just can't follow your line of "thought".
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Originally posted by ChickenHawk
Didn't take long for this to turn ugly did it?
For those of you who were not there, or might not know the layout, the pilot turned right after takeoff not only because that was what the traffic pattern was but if he had turned left he would have flown over the air show crowd with thousands of people closely packed and this tragedy could have turned out much worse. At this point, we don't know if the plane lost power during takeoff or when he was already in the pattern. It also appears that he was aiming for a field which he just missed by 30 feet. It all happened so fast that he had split seconds to make any decisions and I tend to think he did the best he could given the situation.
I was at the air show that day but left early and missed the crash by minutes. I drove right by the spot he crashed right before it happened. Haven't stopped thinking about it since.
For those who think this gentleman was just a lawyer, here's a quick bio on his life as a pilot.
PILOT EXPERIENCE
Ratings:
•Commercial rating
•Instrument rating
• He is the only FAA Authorized Instructor for the Hawker Hunter swept wing, transonic jet fighter; authorized to train pilots to fly this aircraft and recommend them to the FAA; and to requalify pilots after lapse of proficiency. He is also an Authorized Instructor for the Soko Galeb, F4U Corsair, Skyraider, Sea Fury, P-51 Mustang, T-28 and Spitfire.
Hours:
•4,000 + hours since 1961
•44 years as a licensed pilot
Aviation Activities - Past and Present:
•Chairman of the Board, Classic Jet Aircraft Association (promoting private operation of surplus military jet aircraft)
•Co-founder, Warbirds of America, an international organization dedicated to the preservation of military aircraft (presently a division of the Experimental Aircraft Association)
•Chief Pilot, Vice President, Trustee, Museum of Flying, Santa Monica, California
•Founder and President, Mustang Pilot's Club, Inc.
•Vice President, Supermarine Aviation, Ltd.
•Vice President, Liberty Aero Corporation
•Vice-President of NATO Aviation
•Participant since 1970 in Reno Air Races, Unlimited Class
•Counsel to Transonic Flight Test, Ltd., operating Folland Gnat Aircraft
•Counsel to Hunter Flight Test, Ltd., operating Hawker Hunter Jet Fighter Aircraft
Aircraft currently or previously owned:
•Owner/Pilot of a Soko Galeb G-2A Jet Fighter and Hawker Hunter Mk. 58 swept-wing British Fighter
•Former owner/pilot of: racing Corsair, "Blue Max"; P-51 Mustang (2); Hawker Sea Fury; Hawker Hunter T.8C & GA-ll
Qualified as Pilot-In-Command in:
•F4U Corsair (FG-1D, F4U-4, F4U-7)
•Spitfire (Mk IX & Mk XIV)
•F8F Bearcat
•P-51 Mustang
•T-6
•T-28
•AD Skyraider
•Hawker Sea Fury
•Soko Galeb
•Hawker Hunter
http://www.baumhedlundlaw.com/attorneys/robertguilford.htm
Looks like he could have taught even Golfer a thing or two.
Sounds like he's as good as you could find to fly the plane in question. I have no idea what everyone is blathering about, the damned fires aren't even cold and people are trashing the guy.
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Originally posted by ChickenHawk
PILOT EXPERIENCE
Ratings:
•Commercial rating
•Instrument rating
• He is the only FAA Authorized Instructor for the Hawker Hunter swept wing, transonic jet fighter; authorized to train pilots to fly this aircraft and recommend them to the FAA; and to requalify pilots after lapse of proficiency. He is also an Authorized Instructor for the Soko Galeb, F4U Corsair, Skyraider, Sea Fury, P-51 Mustang, T-28 and Spitfire.
Hours:
•4,000 + hours since 1961
•44 years as a licensed pilot
Aviation Activities - Past and Present:
•Chairman of the Board, Classic Jet Aircraft Association (promoting private operation of surplus military jet aircraft)
•Co-founder, Warbirds of America, an international organization dedicated to the preservation of military aircraft (presently a division of the Experimental Aircraft Association)
•Chief Pilot, Vice President, Trustee, Museum of Flying, Santa Monica, California
•Founder and President, Mustang Pilot's Club, Inc.
•Vice President, Supermarine Aviation, Ltd.
•Vice President, Liberty Aero Corporation
•Vice-President of NATO Aviation
•Participant since 1970 in Reno Air Races, Unlimited Class
•Counsel to Transonic Flight Test, Ltd., operating Folland Gnat Aircraft
•Counsel to Hunter Flight Test, Ltd., operating Hawker Hunter Jet Fighter Aircraft
Aircraft currently or previously owned:
•Owner/Pilot of a Soko Galeb G-2A Jet Fighter and Hawker Hunter Mk. 58 swept-wing British Fighter
•Former owner/pilot of: racing Corsair, "Blue Max"; P-51 Mustang (2); Hawker Sea Fury; Hawker Hunter T.8C & GA-ll
Qualified as Pilot-In-Command in:
•F4U Corsair (FG-1D, F4U-4, F4U-7)
•Spitfire (Mk IX & Mk XIV)
•F8F Bearcat
•P-51 Mustang
•T-6
•T-28
•AD Skyraider
•Hawker Sea Fury
•Soko Galeb
•Hawker Hunter
This is a refreshing read. I am happy to see that I was right to offer up some kind of support for this guy and an assumption that he was properly qualified.
The downside is that I see from his references that he was involved in some Southern California Aviation organizations with which I am familiar and donate to. That makes it a little more personal, which I could have done without.
Thanks for getting the scoop on this guy ChickenHawk, hopefully it will put a stop to all the verbal diarreah (sp?) in this thread.
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one more thing....radio communications between pilot and the tower controllers is a huge help in these cases. We have radios that can hear these conversations. There are 2 different parts of the tower communications, one is the ground control, where the FAA controllers are talking to the pilot while on the ground, and than there are the air traffic controllers who talk to the pilot while in the air. These are the two main forms of communication for any and all traffic. I monitored the radio all day since our truck was sitting about 150 yards off the approach end of the runway. There was no traffic from the pilot from the time he got permission to taxi to his tragic emergency. This will add to the speculation as to what exactly happened. The NTSB is now conducting an investigation, and it will take 6 months to complete. But for now, all we know about that fateful flight is that a beautiful plane and a skilled pilot were lost, but really know one understands how or why.
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Originally posted by Golfer
I'm a cynic, a heck of a cynic especially when it comes to unqualified pilots flying very high performance airplanes into the ground. Nothing more makes me mad than reading a story about some wealthy ******* who couldn't fly out of a wet paper bag burying an airplane into some homes. It's great that they can afford to keep them flying but that doesn't mean they should be the ones flying them.
With the details in the posts prior to mine combined with the effects of a hearty amount of alcohol you have an unfiltered and unbiased opinion. It's staying. No point sugar coating to make others feel warm and fuzzy.
It really is amazing to see the rubbish some low time neophyte corporate right seaters spew. Their egos are so huge, skill sets so low, they feel the need to spout out at any given chance they get to make themselvbes appear better than they truly are. Sadly, they neglect to realise that the only ones that actually believe their little ego trips and chest thumping are other low time right seaters that share the same ego.
Unfortunately there seems to be more and more imbeciles starting out in corporate/commercial aviation each year. Keep on believing that know one will ever match your amazing 733t skilz at piloting your way to stardom.
Anyways, to all you know-it-all noob corporate right seaters. You are truly all God's Gifts to aviation and the world in general. :rolleyes:
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Yeah, the guy sounds like a real rookie.
BTW, Golfer, do you like your crow salted or plain?
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Hell the guy had a real honest to God P51 LOA as well as other stuff. Golfer should be his good buddy and all.
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Cert envy methinks.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Hell the guy had a real honest to God P51 LOA as well as other stuff. Golfer should be his good buddy and all.
Me thinks Golfer is probably flying around with Straiga in his 51 right now.... doing slow rolls through blimp hangars. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Bodhi
Me thinks Golfer is probably flying around with Straiga in his 51 right now.... doing slow rolls through blimp hangars. :rolleyes:
That was a GREAT thread!!!
:aok
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Originally posted by Toad
Yeah, the guy sounds like a real rookie.
BTW, Golfer, do you like your crow salted or plain?
He'll have a double helping this time, uncooked, with feathers, beak, and feet.
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OMTG bodhi are you implying that golfer is voss?
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Originally posted by eagl
OMTG bodhi are you implying that golfer is voss?
Golfer has neither the style nor consistency to be Voss, nor does Straiga.
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Originally posted by Bodhi
It really is amazing to see the rubbish some low time neophyte corporate right seaters spew. Their egos are so huge, skill sets so low, they feel the need to spout out at any given chance they get to make themselvbes appear better than they truly are. Sadly, they neglect to realise that the only ones that actually believe their little ego trips and chest thumping are other low time right seaters that share the same ego.
Unfortunately there seems to be more and more imbeciles starting out in corporate/commercial aviation each year. Keep on believing that know one will ever match your amazing 733t skilz at piloting your way to stardom.
Anyways, to all you know-it-all noob corporate right seaters. You are truly all God's Gifts to aviation and the world in general. :rolleyes:
I'd like to have you point out where I say I'm the new Bob Hoover, Bodhi. Would I be safe in an F-86 tomorrow? I think not. Fly a 2000hp round engine in front of an F4U? Well if I take a look and see the biggest motor I've flown behind in a piston airplane is 400hp with a nosewheel, 300 with a tailwheel I'd venture a guess at no. As far as who should be flying the airplanes this guy fit the bill as to who exactly you'd want in the cockpit.
When I made my first post these were the facts.
-Hawker Hunter smashes into houses presumably after an airshow after serving as a static display (Implying that no waiver granted to fly said airplane in said airshow)
-Pilot is an Attorney. Implying not a career military pilot with extensive training in similar jets...of which pilots are becoming increasingly rare.
After watching both very qualified guys and others who shouldn't have been able to sit in the damn thing fly an airplane into the ground just the possibility that some rich guy farting around in his toy took it into some houses really made me mad. Not because an unqualified guy took it into the ground, but because if he did he put perfectly innocent people in danger doing so. There is nothing worse in my book.
After seeing the video...another point I've made before regarding eyewitness statements regarding airplane accidents. How many times have you heard a witness explain that a PT-6 was "revving up and down like a race car" or something similar. The first statements talking about the engine making noise and then nosing over sound just like a recent accident in which I lost a friend in a business jet. He was captain, FO was flying and stalled the airplane turning base.
Between emotion, alcohol and being tired I gave a non warm-fuzzy opinion. There it is. I'll try to be PC next time some unqualified ******* flys himself into the ground if it makes you feel better.
The witness statements didn't say anything about a quiet airplane dropping like a rock exactly like a hunter would. But when's the last time they were close to reliable.
As far as Straiga...I'll just resurrect the old (http://www.clear-and-a-million.com/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif) and say I would have done everything just the same fighting to give em a fair deal.
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Originally posted by Golfer
I'd like to have you point out where I say I'm the new Bob Hoover, Bodhi. Would I be safe in an F-86 tomorrow? I think not. Fly a 2000hp round engine in front of an F4U? Well if I take a look and see the biggest motor I've flown behind in a piston airplane is 400hp with a nosewheel, 300 with a tailwheel I'd venture a guess at no. As far as who should be flying the airplanes this guy fit the bill as to who exactly you'd want in the cockpit.
When I made my first post these were the facts.
-Hawker Hunter smashes into houses presumably after an airshow after serving as a static display (Implying that no waiver granted to fly said airplane in said airshow)
-Pilot is an Attorney. Implying not a career military pilot with extensive training in similar jets...of which pilots are becoming increasingly rare.
After watching both very qualified guys and others who shouldn't have been able to sit in the damn thing fly an airplane into the ground just the possibility that some rich guy farting around in his toy took it into some houses really made me mad. Not because an unqualified guy took it into the ground, but because if he did he put perfectly innocent people in danger doing so. There is nothing worse in my book.
After seeing the video...another point I've made before regarding eyewitness statements regarding airplane accidents. How many times have you heard a witness explain that a PT-6 was "revving up and down like a race car" or something similar. The first statements talking about the engine making noise and then nosing over sound just like a recent accident in which I lost a friend in a business jet. He was captain, FO was flying and stalled the airplane turning base.
Between emotion, alcohol and being tired I gave a non warm-fuzzy opinion. There it is. I'll try to be PC next time some unqualified ******* flys himself into the ground if it makes you feel better.
The witness statements didn't say anything about a quiet airplane dropping like a rock exactly like a hunter would. But when's the last time they were close to reliable.
As far as Straiga...I'll just resurrect the old (http://www.clear-and-a-million.com/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif) and say I would have done everything just the same fighting to give em a fair deal.
4- Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users and HTC. Flaming or abusing users is not tolerated.
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If that is the case it clearly takes one to know one.
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Originally posted by Bodhi
4- Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users and HTC. Flaming or abusing users is not tolerated.
One can be an egotistical arrogant arse and be safer in the air than mr 'nice guy' or mr 'natural' who are pushing their limits.
You might not like Golfer's attitude but I don't read anything making a 'crater waiting to happen' out of him.
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When I made my first post these were the facts.
-Hawker Hunter smashes into houses presumably after an airshow after serving as a static display (Implying that no waiver granted to fly said airplane in said airshow)
Just a point here. Implications are not facts. In this case what you claim is an implication is in fact an inference by you. The article made no implications about that. It just stated that he brought the aircraft as a static display. This happens with many prised warbirds. I suppose if you contimue with your inferences the static display of active military aircraft would mean the pilots that brought them are also unqualified to operate them.
-Pilot is an Attorney. Implying not a career military pilot with extensive training in similar jets...of which pilots are becoming increasingly rare.
Again, another inference here. The pilot was an attorney. That seems to be fact and no one is disputing it. There was nothing in the article that implied he was unqualified to operate the aircraft, was not a former career military pilot with a current flight status. Instead of sticking to the facts you allowed your fatige and alcohol content (at least that is what you are claiming in a later post) to bring you to multiple inferences of lack of pilot credentials of the deceased that seems to be rather false instead of factual.
Claiming some kind of “higher ground” based on your inferences and experience as a commercial pilot alone in your evaluation of his situation would seem to be rather egotistical.
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Bodhi,
I think Golfer was initially reacting to the stereotype of the "JFK syndrome", or the reason why the Bonanza is nicknamed "The doctor killer". I fail to see why you go out of your way to drag him in the mud. You didn't have to bring out the "I'm an airline captain god, you are a maget" power trip. A little tap on the butt would have been cuter.
:)
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Uh Frenchy, Bodhi didn't bring out the "I'm an airline captain god, you are a maget" power trip. Golfer did.
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That's the way I felt it, I must have miss-interpreted Bodhi's post.:(
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Frenchy,
I am not an airline Captain. My only beef with Golfer is his freaking "know-it-all" attitude. His *****y arse comments regarding the death of a man known and highly respected by a lot in the industry I am in, piss me off. I remember not too long ago when he was a rampy paying his way through flight school. His posts back then were not of the sort. Slowly over the past couple of years, that has changed drastically. Now, he disguises his arrogant ego with quotes like "I am a cynic" or " I am not going to sugar coat it for you". Thats the type of crap that I hate, and the typical drivel oozing from his ilk.
Tell ya what. My bet is that his arrogant attitude is going to be problems someday... it's a matter of time.
You know the type as well as anyone being in the end of the business you're in. We all know where they end up 9 times out of 10... a smoking hole.
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Originally posted by Golfer
If that is the case it clearly takes one to know one.
Ahhh... "the dreaded I know you are but what am I come back"
Maybe I am wrong, you clearly don't have the mental capacity to come up with a decent come back, let alone be trusted to fly anything big enough to make a big hole.
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Fair enough Bodhi.:)