Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Ripsnort on November 05, 2001, 09:50:00 AM
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..in the US 60 some years ago?? Now, before I post the following, I neither condone, nor condemn what the US did at that time. Such is the fallout of World War...however, the following is *what might have been the reasoning for internment camps in a free society"...double negative there.. ;)
This article is from Sunday's New York Post.
TRAITOR: 'I'LL KILL AMERICANS'
By HANNELE RUBIN
New Yorker Mohammad Junaid, waiting in Pakistan to join the Taliban, went on his jihad after his mom was rescued from the WTC.
- ITN/Channel 5 News
November 4, 2001 -- This is the face of a traitor - a New Yorker who bought a one-way ticket to Pakistan because he wants to sign up for the Taliban and kill Americans.
He left on his likely suicide mission just one week after his mother was led to safety from the collapsing World Trade Center by the city's brave firefighters and policemen, many of whom were among the more than 4,000 victims of the terrorist strikes on the Twin Towers on Sept. 11.
"I did not feel any remorse for the Americans [who died]," Mohammad Junaid said in Islamabad, Pakistan, on Thursday as he waited to be taken across the border into Afghanistan to join the troops of the Taliban.
"I'm willing to kill the Americans. I will kill every American that I see in Afghanistan. And I'll kill every American soldier that I see in Pakistan," Junaid boasted to British television correspondent, Jon Gilbert, in an interview for the ITN Channel 5 network.
Until he revealed his rabid and murderous intentions, Junaid said, he had been living a typical life as a born-and-bred New Yorker.
The 26-year-old son of Pakistani immigrants said he went to elementary and high school in the city and studied at a med school for two years before dropping out to join a dot-com company. When that folded, he took a $70,000-a-year job as a programmer for a Muslim-oriented company, a position he quit just days before embarking on his self-appointed jihad.
"I do have an American passport. But at the end of the day, I'm a Muslim," Junaid said last week.
Junaid, a stocky but fit man, told ITN his family fully supports his bloodthirsty mission.
He said his father was a retired security guard and shopkeeper while his mother is thought to have worked on the ninth floor of the trade center. Attempts by The Post to contact them were unsuccessful.
The bespectacled Junaid said his anti-American anger began when he was the only Muslim child at the Catholic school he attended in the city. He said he always felt left out at the school.
He said his family had immigrated to the United States from Pakistan in 1967 to take advantage of the "freedoms and opportunities" in New York City.
He said his grandfather instilled in him the belief that "your loyalty is with Islam. Your loyalty is with the Muslims. Just because you're in New York, your loyalty is still with them."
Junaid told Gilbert he had been sleeping for the past week on the floor of the Lahore office of an extremist Muslim group as he waited for his transport across the Afghanistan border. He said he hoped to join pro-Taliban forces there this week.
Junaid was thought to be accompanied by several British Muslims, with whom he met up in London two weeks ago, according to a report in London's Sun newspaper.
The American was interviewed by the newspaper, along with two other British-born Muslims who also said they were returning to Pakistan to fight for the Taliban.
Former civil engineer Abdul Salem, 25, of London's Brick Lane, told the Sun, "I have been waiting a long time for this - to kill British soldiers."
[/b]
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I don't see how the two even remotely relate. He's a scumbag and will, with any luck, find himself fighting American troops and catch a fatal bullet or two. Idiots like this are no reason to take away US Citizens' freedoms just because of their ethnicity or religious beliefs.
SOB
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They are not remotely related, but directly related in the eyes of the FBI. What if this fellow decided to stay in the US and do his fighting from the inside? (Think ANTHRAX).
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You take the good with the bad. That's one of the risks we all run for getting all the good stuff that comes with living in a free society.
Besides, it could just as easily be anyone else in the US as it could be this love muffin, and they don't have to be Arab or Muslim.
SOB
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One amazinhunk doesn't justify the internment of an entire culture. This is America. Freedom comes at the cost of safety.
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Actually, Italians and Germans were not interned during WWII, which kinda proves the prevelant racism at the time...
Did you know that US wing of NAZI party held annual meetings in Madison Square ? :) Just a funny tidbit...
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HU-MAN RIGHTS!
HU-MAN RIGHTS!
HU-MAN RIGHTS!
HU-MAN RIGHTS!
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Incorrect as usual Fd-ski, do your homework. 250 italians and 200 Germans were dormed in New York State during WW2..they were highly suspect (and turned out not for good reason, but indeed, "paranoia") and interned.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Incorrect as usual Fd-ski, do your homework. 250 italians and 200 Germans were dormed in New York State during WW2..they were highly suspect (and turned out not for good reason, but indeed, "paranoia") and interned.
Don't be silly.
250 italians / 200 Germans out of few millions ?
You actually would compare that to 120000 Nessei living behind a barbed wire for 3 years ?
And do remember that lot of those were 2nd generation....
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I'm not argueing the fact it was racism, I was argueing the fact that Germans and Italians were interned as well, regardless of numbers.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
I'm not argueing the fact it was racism, I was argueing the fact that Germans and Italians were interned as well, regardless of numbers.
No, they were not. Few suspicious characters of Italian and German decent were arrested due to suspicion, but Germans and Italians were NOT interned.
To draw a comparison for you: If you killed an Arab because he broke into your house, that doesn't mean you wanted to kill all arabs. Clear now ?
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Sorry FD-ski, as I said, your wrong (as usual)..will post tonight, my links are at home. :)
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Incidently, if you do want to educate yourself quickly on the subject, theres a video out there on the subject, here's the summary of it:
During World War II, hundreds of thousands of "enemy aliens," some of whom had lived in the United States for generations, were held in internment camps for the duration of the war. Italian Americans, as one of the nation's largest immigrant groups, were particularly effected by this policy, but their story has largely been overlooked,even as the existence of the camps in general has become well-known. Drawing on extensive archival footage (much of it formerly classified) as well as interviews with people who spent the
war in these facilities, ITALIAN-AMERICAN INTERNMENT brings this dark story to light. They suffered countless indignities in the name of the freedom which brought them to this nation in the first place!
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Here is what i was able to dig up.
Europeans and European-Americans accounted for 56 percent of all internees during World War II, according to Arthur Jacobs, co-editor of World War Two Experience: The Internment of German-Americans. In all, some 10,905 enemy aliens from Germany were interned - along with 16,849 Japanese, 3,278 Italians, 53 Hungarians, 25 Rumanians, five Bulgarians and 161 others.
Apparently author has some math issues, since by those numbers Japanese account for 53% of total number. Apparently we did 109% job that time...
And this aside of the fact that 120000 Japanese were "relocated" forcefully.
Why don't you find a total number of first and second generation Germans and Italians in USA in 1942, and how many of them were moved to camps for those own good.
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Don't ya hate it when your wrong FD-ski? Tough on the ol' Eastern block mentality ego ain't it? ;)
Again, we're not discussing numbers, we're discussing whether or not there were Italian/German internees. Your wrong. :)
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Ah.. good old fashioned "can't argue resort to personal insults " method....
There are generalizations, and specifics.
Generlization is "germans were interened during the war". That's because very SMALL % of germans here were indeed interned.
Specific would "Japanese were interened during the war" cause just about every single of them was.
If that doesn't explain it, i'm not gonna try anymore.
Fine Rip, you win. I'm not going down to your level.
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Right now, I can imagine some air crewman with a piece of chalk scrawling on one of our bombs...
"To Junaid, from the USA with love."
gotta love "he was lonely because he was the only Muslim in a Catholic school". Uhmm, why on earth did his parents send him to a Catholic school? Did they go worship at Catholic churches too?
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i hate flaming liberals as much as the next good republican but right is right, and fdski is right. 200 ppl doesnt qualifty as internment.
:)
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Define it as you want, the numbers wasn't the issue at all, it was the fact that Germans, Italians and Japanese were interned in WW2. It was not limited to one cultural group.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Define it as you want, the numbers wasn't the issue at all, it was the fact that Germans, Italians and Japanese were interned in WW2. It was not limited to one cultural group.
Don't forget Hungarians, Rumanians, Bulgarians and others !!!
Outrage !! US of A INTERNED EVERY FRICKING SINGLE ETHNIC GROUP ON THE PLANET !!!!
That will cover them all, won't it Rip ? :D
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well if he is as lucky as morton sobell he can make money off of the book and tour some day.
remember morton sobell? he was a co-conspirator of the traitorous rosenbergs who sold out the plans for the hydrogen bomb to the ussr back in the 40's. they were captured by thugs in mexico and delivered to the us authorities. for selling out his country he got a whopping 30 years in prison. at least ethel and julius got justice in the electric chair.
now he has a book out called "on doing time" and of course there is a speaking tour that goes with it. he'll be at the marin county jcc doing a speech about how the rosenbergs weren't guilty if you live in the area you can watch history being revised and help a treasonous worm get rich all at the same time.
ain't america grand? :rolleyes:
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Well, guess my point comes to this:
In WW2, the "enemy" was a much more confusing subject, since it covered a broad number of cultures, German,Italian, Japanese, hell we even confused a million or two chinese and asians for Japanese, right Fd-ski? ;)
So, today, what we have is a very defined enemy of the country. Instead of giving them room and board (internment) why not just track 'em down, and deport their sorry asses? This includes those that stand on street corners handing out pamplets denouncing the USA and asking others to take up arms against her (As happened in CA over the week-end...if you don't know what happened, then you watch too much CNN, because they will NOT tell you the whole story)
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As happened in CA over the week-end...if you don't know what happened, then you watch too much CNN, because they will NOT tell you the whole story
???? What happened in california over the weekend?
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Sorry Hang, you'll have to find the news yourself, you guys spend waaaaay too much time on one news source, thats the problem with this country. :)
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The best thing that could happen to the young, sociopathic ex-New Yorker Mohammad Junaid, is that he survive the war against terrorism.
Then let him live out the rest of his life over there. No more broadway shows. No more free speech. No more good job. No more good clothes, good food, drinks and movies. In fact, no more freedom. That will complete his education. Good riddance. He won't fit in any peaceful society.
Back on topic, didn't/doesn't every country at war intern those that may potentially pose a threat to national security? It just makes sense that it would happen.
I think persons of Islamic background in the USA, especially foreign nationals, are getting closer scrutiny as we speak. If investigation of terrorist acts leads to Islamic suspects in this country, I can see some kind of profiling being done, and if we suffer another terrorist act on the scale of September 11th in which there are links to people with this background, I can really see something like "internment" camps happening under martial law. I hope to God that doesn't happen.
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Incidently, here's one "related" story but not the CA story, but one of many stories occuring in your back yard.
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/wjla/20011102/lo/gmu_student_charged_in_flag_burning_1.html (http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/wjla/20011102/lo/gmu_student_charged_in_flag_burning_1.html)
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My backyard (http://www.osp.state.or.us/news_releases/html/september_17a__2001.html)
For the record, although I think it's stupid and disrespectful, I don't believe burning our flag should be a crime.
SOB
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[snip]
Flag desecration... sheesh. Lots of luck making that stick after the Supreme Court ruling that it is within the 1st Amendment rights to piss on the flag if that's your bent.
<sigh>
Oh... the FIRE! Moron deserves having the book thrown at him for arson. Other than that... I'm fresh outta rat's asses.
:)
[ 11-05-2001: Message edited by: Sandman_SBM ]
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I think it was a fad during those time. History shall prove me... umm... something
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
So, today, what we have is a very defined enemy of the country. Instead of giving them room and board (internment) why not just track 'em down, and deport their sorry asses?
Yeah, they're called terrorists. I don't imagine that they'll be simply deported if they're caught.
Or are you suggesting that muslims are they enemy...perhaps afghans? Please clarify.
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Nobody was interned in WW2 USA just because of their race, especially not the Japanse.
What you dont belive me???? Surely hes wrong.
Well Im sure you know (being experts on the matter) that the Japanese in Hawaii were not interned. If it was racial paranoia about Japanese Americans aiding the Japanese Army wouldnt the vast majority of Hawaii's population which is very much Japanese have been interned, with Hawaii being the most likely place of invasion.
The ones interred were on the Mainland only. So no Japanese were interred for racial reasons alone. Somebody just did it for the ones on mainlaind usa.
As for why all German Americans werent detained. Well you would have to detain more than 30% of the US WW2 population and more than 30% of the US army. Germans are the single biggest ethnic group in the USA, still to this day IIRC. German came very close to being the US language rather than English early on.
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Rip posted numbers that are not in the 100s but in the 10000s if FDski cant acknoledge that his perception was wrong if those numbers are right then he has to look hard at what he is arguing about. Constantly revising the argument to fit his facts is kind of transperent.
If one muslim american that wants to eat our cluster bombs is enough for us to consider detaining the bulk of the muslim population then we have a bigger problem then the enemy within. The detention of Japanese in ww2 ackomplished nothing but the transfer of their wealth and property to others that didnt deserve it.
When we are dealing with enemies that will willingly commit suicide for thier cause it is hard to keep in mind that it is not a common charecteristic of thier race or religion. The ones that do it are heavily indoctrinated or nuts anyway and in the absence of that indoctrination the willingness to die for the cause approaches the human norm. This guy sounds like a nut. there are 30(?) million muslim americans...this is one.
Nice provocative post Rip
>
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Japanese businessmen were actually caught smuggling documents and blueprints out of the country for multi-engined U.S. aircraft . Thats one of the reasons that they were interned.
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Originally posted by fdiron:
Japanese businessmen were actually caught smuggling documents and blueprints out of the country for multi-engined U.S. aircraft . Thats one of the reasons that they were interned.
The problem is that it wasn't only the guilty parties that were interned in concentration camps...did I say concentration camps, I ment fun camps.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
I'll Kill Americans....
November 4, 2001 -- This is the face of a traitor
Ahhh the almost forgotten art of propaganda..
Maybe they should bring back some of the classics:
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Skyrats/files/Propaganda/Prop2.gif) (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Skyrats/files/Propaganda/Prop3.jpg) (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Skyrats/files/Propaganda/Prop6.gif)
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Skyrats/files/Propaganda/Prop8.jpg)
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Skyrats/files/Propaganda/Prop4.jpg)
Tronsky
[ 11-05-2001: Message edited by: -tronski- ]
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I was involved in a flag burning incident back in the early eighties. In fact i supplied the lighter.
I was out bar hopping with some riding buddies around Denver. When we came out of the second, or third bar, we spotted a couple of guys hanging around our bikes. When we walked up closer, we saw a very drunk young fella acting as if he was going to light fire to an American flag that was duct taped to Tiny's sissy bar.
Now, I should explain that there is always a guy named Tiny in every biker group. And he has to be at least 6'5" and over 275 lbs to qualify for the nick. This one was over 300 lbs.
Anyway. Tiny walks up to this guy, who probably weighs 175 lbs soaking wet, and offers to help. The guy gives Tiny a drunken grin, and says "OK". At that, Tiny grabs the back of the guys neck, and bends him face down over the saddle of his bike. Holding him there. Tiny yanks the flag, which is stapled to a little, wooden stick, loose from the sissy bar. And with out so much as a word, he slams the stick, flag and all, right through the guys jeans, and up his rectum. Ignoring all the noise the guy is making, Tiny turns to me and asks for a light.(Tiny was a non- smoker). I sensed what was about to happen. And I was somewhat conflicted. On one hand, I did not want to take part in burning the flag. On the other hand. The location of the flag( or at least half of it) Indicated that it was already desecrated. So I gave Tiny my trusty zippo.
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Oh god, Rip. I just hope nobody from the 442nd RCT sees this. They went through a small hell in their own country before even entering into combat.
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Uh guys. Maybe I didn't pick something up here, but the evidence adduced for internment of Italians, Germans and other Europeans pertains to "aliens", that is foreign nationals.
So far I have seen no evidence that there was a systematic attempt anywhere in the US in WW2 to round up US Citizens of European descent and put them in concentration camps on the suspicion that they were aiding an enemy. And FD-ski's right, 200 people do not make a systematic attempt.
And, just because Hawaii didn't intern its US citizens of Japanese descent, doesn't mean that the US Citizens on the mainland weren't interned on racial reasons alone.
For those of us on the West Coast at least, the memory of the internment is as close as just about every other major event of the war. Odds are, we all know someone who was (or whose parents were) stuck in concentration camps.
Just because we count among our citizens traitors, doesn't mean we should round up every single person of a certain race and religion.
Tabloid press can make the individual case much more important that it is. I wonder how many others like this guy are out there? Probably about as many as white supremacists who want to blow up buildings or mail anthrax.
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One thing I think needs to be said about my grandparents generation. They knew what they were up agains (evil) and they did what they had to do to win.
I have a lot of friends from Iran and the middle east, and I'm torn on this issue. I do think though that we're at war and that take presidence before all other issues, espesially in this kind of war. Maybe we should just do what will win this war fast with the least amount of lost life and apologize for what we got wrong after the whole mess is over when it will be easier to debate and rectify what we did that wasn't "right"
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bah. If we start rounding up and imprisoning US citizens because of Middle Eastern or Muslim descent, we give credence to the claims of our enemies and we lose the war. If we make this a war of the US against the Middle East, we've lost.
Just because our opponents are indiscriminate bastards doesn't mean that we have to be to beat them.
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Originally posted by Dinger:
bah. If we start rounding up and imprisoning US citizens because of Middle Eastern or Muslim descent, we give credence to the claims of our enemies and we lose the war. If we make this a war of the US against the Middle East, we've lost.
Just because our opponents are indiscriminate bastards doesn't mean that we have to be to beat them.
Never said citizens, that should neverhappen and hopefuly never will. BUT, I don't think internments camps will happen unless this war goes south in a BIG way. At the very least though we should stop taking people from those countries for a while. Let them live their lives with out the hope of coming here for a better life, who knows maybe they'd fix their problems at home instead????
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Look, all I'm saying is, your either with us or against us. End of story. You start to distribute pamplets on street corners telling your fellow citizens to rise up in the name of Allah against the USA, then deport the muther plowers. Simple enough for you? Christ, some of you bleeding hearts are so thick!
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Check.
Anti-US, Pro-Allah pamphlets and you're out of here. Anything else? :)
SOB
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Somewhere, buried not too deep in the NSA's files lies this lil missive...
I was involved in a flag burning incident back in the early eighties. In fact i supplied the lighter.
Damn... scary when yah look at that outta context.
On second thought; it's scary when yah look at it IN context!
Tiny yanks the flag, which is stapled to a little, wooden stick, loose from the sissy bar. And with out so much as a word, he slams the stick, flag and all, right through the guys jeans, and up his rectum. Ignoring all the noise the guy is making, Tiny turns to me and asks for a light.(
btw... wtfg easymo! <S!>
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This is way OT, but im feeling a little guilty about how Tiny might be thought of after that story. He went over the high side about a year after the incident I described above. I do miss him. He was just this big friendly kid in his early twenties.
So here is another Tiny story to balance things out. I was riding with him one night in his old station wagon. We stopped in a gas station, and while he was filling up, Tiny notices this woman setting in her car, crying. She has two little ones in the back seat. And she looks like she just went twelve rounds with George Forman. We started talking to her, and she explained that her old man got drunk and beat the hell out of her. She said she was tired of it. She was taking the kids and going back east. The problem was, she had blown the motor in her car. When she turned it over you could hear the unmistakable bang of of a rod slapping around.
I gave her what money I had on me (not much). Tiny gave her HIS CAR. Yep. handed the keys right over. Man! his o'lady was pissed when she came to pick us up. Tiny lived in terror of his girlfriend. In spite of the fact that she weighed about as much as one of his legs. He tried to explain to her that sometimes you just have to do the right thing.
Where ever he is, I hope he is still puttin on that old, rat, panhead of his. And smiling so hard it hurts.
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At Beale AFB in North Cal, There were interened Germans during WW2 in a small camp. Not much left of the camp but it has a little history marker at one of the cell blocks on the installation. Dont know how many German/Euro total at the camp, but these gusy werent there for any personal crime, just being German was enough.
And for the argument that We were racist against the Japanese, well I guess so, but the Germans/Italians didnt launch a ferocious sneak attack on US soil killing thousands either. That tended to insight a little "racism" if you will.
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Tiny was already my hero after the first story.
<S!> Tiny!
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Originally posted by -ammo-:
And for the argument that We were racist against the Japanese, well I guess so, but the Germans/Italians didnt launch a ferocious sneak attack on US soil killing thousands either. That tended to (incite) a little "racism" if you will.
No excuse. None whatsoever. You don't intern your own - unless with due cause. Besides, I don't believe it was the surprise attack that evoked such blind rage at the Japanese as the fact that we didn't understand their culture. Nor did they understand ours. Hence, total no-quarter warfare due in large part to propaganda and generalization.
Rip,
It's one thing to jail those who would threaten their own country, or host country, but quite another to intern anyone based on ethnic background - which is what happened to Americans of Japanese descent in WWII. I have very strong feelings about the WTC massacre, but I'm not about to foment hatred or paranoia(and I'm not saying you're spreading hatred around, Rip. It's just the direction that a lot of these threads seem to be going). It's not going to do anything for me anyway, except turn me into the flipside of the Al Queda. I'd rather base my decisions on priciples and facts, then go about seeing them through. Some things you have to let ride, since you're powerless to do anything about it anyway - at least in a fashion that would benefit a society. Often in situations like these, the best thing to do is to set an example of what you believe this world should be like, and how you think people should treat one another. Words only last until the next eloquently convincing article. Examples leave an imprint on our souls.
Of course, you've heard this all before, but I felt it needed to be said here.
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Originally posted by -ammo-:
Originally posted by -ammo-:
Dont know how many German/Euro total at the camp, but these gusy werent there for any personal crime, just being German was enough.
Revisionist garbage.
Germans (and all others) suspected of anti-American activities were arrested. They were given hearings.
Japanese-Americans in western states were put in camps without any suspicion at all, except their race.