Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: mrfish on September 05, 2001, 06:32:00 PM
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...sets back race relations with every sentence.
he was amusing on hardball tonight - announcing his intentions to run for president and demanding monetary reparations for all blacks and yelling and talking over the host.
when is the black community going to put up a real leader? :rolleyes:
[ 09-05-2001: Message edited by: mrfish ]
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And it ain't easy to talk over Chris Matthews :D
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Ten Reasons Why Reparations for Blacks is a Bad Idea for Blacks - and Racist Too (http://www.frontpagemag.com/horowitzsnotepad/2001/hn01-03-01.htm)
Reparations Are Still A Bad Idea
I want to see Sharpton argue with Horowitz.
[ 09-05-2001: Message edited by: Sandman_SBM ]
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i wish i could find someone to argue with me supporting reparations. its got to be the easiest thing to argue against ever. WELL ARGUING AGAINST SLAVERY WAS PROBABLY EQUALLY AS EASY ;)
oops that was accidental caps but im not gonna retype it
is there actually a piece anywhere that gives a GOOD reason for reparations?
even my black and democratic friends think al sharpton is an idiot. funny thing is they thought he was a "local yokel" in new york and didnt realize he was giving democrats a bad name nation wide :)
he and jesse jackson actually think they are helping blacks. hahahahaha.
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http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/gift.html (http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/gift.html)
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The real irony is that a clown like Sharpton causes more racial tention than healing it.
When will America, and the media wake up to the fact that this fat bastard is hiding under banner of black rights when all he is after is fame and fortune. Another Don King if you will, just a different arena.
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If I was a black person in the US, I'd be pissed. Why does everyone think that Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson represent black people. These two love muffines may represent a segment of the black community, but I find it hard to believe they represent every black person in the US. That's like picking one or two white dipshits to represent every white person in the US. Hey, maybe ours could be David Duke!
SOB
...uh oh, did I just compare Al Sharpton with David Duke? Well, yeah :)
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Seems to be whoever gets the "air time".
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SOB.
Cause he's black.
If he was a white Sharpton, then the blacks would think he represented all the whites.
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Originally posted by fscott:
Another Don King if you will, just a different arena.
and a different hair style :)
shame they give idiots like him any airtime at all. I'm afraid if he can convince a large segment of the black vote that there is a payment-for-having-relatives-that-were-once-slaves-check with their name on it, he'll get their vote. How many he can sell this idiotic idea to is anyones guess. But anyone who does buys it, I am sure has a "D" and not a "R" on their voter registration card. I only hope he runs as an independent :)
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Of course he causes more tention. Why would he put himself out of a job?
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Sharpton may have convinced some people that he represents them. In fact, he represents Sharpton. Like many people, he likes being in the limelight, and he long ago found a vehicle for keeping himself there. He does not represent a majority opinion.
As for the question of reparations, though the idea has little merit, the debate about them is a good thing. White America tends to remember that slavery existed long ago (and generally agrees it was a bad thing), but often forgets that many people living now have experienced legally enforced racially based double standards. Its not that long ago and things are not "all better now" - as can be seen between the lines in some of the posts in this forum.
Giving people money because their ancestors were enslaved 150 years ago makes little sense - remembering that their descendants still face bias and reduced opportunity in nearly every aspect of life is one of those uncomfortable things that should still be faced and discussed.
- Yoj
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by Yoj
White America tends to remember that slavery existed long ago (and generally agrees it was a bad thing), but often forgets that many people living now have experienced legally enforced racially based double standards.
I remember it quite well, the first time was when I didn't get the job as a fire fighter after graduating high school because minorities where given extra 10% on evaluation & testing (to 'even up' the competition, if I was a minority I would have been insulted to be told the competition needed evening),
so someone who was less qualified than me ended up with the job I needed, that was the beginning when my views on affirmative action got a reality check. Too many other incidences to list since then.
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Giving people money because their ancestors were enslaved 150 years ago makes little sense..
We are already doing that, in the form of affirmative action. YES I am against it.
I say, give the jobs to all the qualified humans, and then give reparations in the form of MONEY to all the people who got jobs based upon affirmative action.
There, now everyone should be happy.
[ 09-06-2001: Message edited by: fscott ]
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The opposition to affirmative action comes from the assumption that the playing field is level to begin with. Historically, minorities had to be demonstratively MORE qualified than whites to have the same opportunity for a job. And even then, their prospects for advancement once they had it were (and still often are) seriously limited. The affirmative action concept is aimed at this. Obviously, legislating anything like that makes the system rigid and there will be occasions when someone who is truly less qualified is rewarded. The problem lies not with affirmative action but in the way it is instituted. Saying, for example, that minorities don't have to score as high on a standardized test is obviously flawed. It shows that it was brought in with a serious lack of imagination. I won't try to defend the way affirmative action works in every case, but the concept, IMHO, has merit. Until people are actually hired ONLY on the basis of their qualifications, and promoted ONLY on the basis of their performance, there will be a need for something like it.
- Yoj
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i'm all for anything that outlaws discrimanation. but i don't see how making it easier for someone to get a job/education/promotion based on race(or minority status) can be seen by any thinking man as anything but discrimanation against anybody who doesn't fit that criteria. and as far as what happened historicly i dont live or work in the past and don't really find the people that do very mentaly stable
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The Jews killed Christ, so we have continually persecuted them for their wrong doing.
Let's keep on making them pay, pay, pay.
The white people enslaved blacks, so let's keep on making whites pay, pay, pay.
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Originally posted by capt. apathy:
i'm all for anything that outlaws discrimanation. but i don't see how making it easier for someone to get a job/education/promotion based on race(or minority status) can be seen by any thinking man as anything but discrimanation against anybody who doesn't fit that criteria. and as far as what happened historicly i dont live or work in the past and don't really find the people that do very mentaly stable
Again, that assumes the playing field is level. And history is everything that happened up to now - its not necessarily a long time ago.
I think its pretty clear that, without the civil rights laws that have been passed, including the affirmative action laws, minority prospects would be as bad as they ever were.
And though you may not live or work in the past, I can be pretty certain you work with people who do. The laws have changed much farther and faster than attitudes.
- Yoj
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Originally posted by fscott:
The Jews killed Christ, so we have continually persecuted them for their wrong doing.
Let's keep on making them pay, pay, pay.
The white people enslaved blacks, so let's keep on making whites pay, pay, pay.
Well - you could certainly find plenty of people who would agree with that first statement.
As for the second, they're not saying keep making whites pay - they're saying START making them pay. As I said, I don't buy the reparation concept. However, I don't see what the white majority has had to pay - unless treating minorities like American citizens is some sort of hardship.
- Yoj
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Originally posted by Yoj:
The opposition to affirmative action comes from the assumption that the playing field is level to begin with. Historically, minorities had to be demonstratively MORE qualified than whites to have the same opportunity for a job
yeah i've heard every version of that song and it's still boring.
it's a competitive world and those who compete well end up winning, whether that's fair or not.
case in point: san francisco.
san francisco passed very restrictive laws against asians during the gold rush and they just kept coming and working hard anyway.instead of whining about acceptance and belonging, they simply formed a thriving and prosperous community of their own.
even as late as the 1930's, asians were prety much limited to chinatown and couldn't live elsewhere, and still they just kept coming and working hard and learning.
eventually, the italians, russian jews and irish that dominated san francisco (and still do along with the chinese now) started to accept the asian community because they realized they were hard workers,pleasantly demeanored and kept their community very safe. additionally, they seemed to be extremely competent at their endeavors.
if you go to chinatown today - don't worry about the time or whether you are alone because you are going to be safe. crowded, but safe. poor people come here with nothing, and no knowledge of the language to this very day and go from scubbing dishes to owning a real estate empire (like j.l. fong my landlord) in a matter of years.
they have formed a self sufficient community that prepares their people for america at large and require no handouts or emotional boosts whatsoever.
in every company i've worked for, asians are on an equal footing in every sense (disregarding the usual nepotism and bellybutton kissing that effects all races)and in some cases people even take them more seriously because they assume they studied harder. (another stereotype of course even if it is positive)
in short, they earned it....through work and sacrfifice, not by any law making you accept or respect them.
another case - scott street projects.
san francisco built brand new cheap low income housing in the 80's in a predominantly black neighborhood on scott street. they were great units and some of the only new housing around. day care was on site for working mothers, counseling services were offered... etc etc. those people payed next to nothing per month while the rest of us pay over a thousand for a hole in the wall.
they littered and grafittid that neighborhood into the ground in a few years. it is a dump now. every time i drive through there are people standing on every corner with their pants aroud their ankles making threatening gestures to the guys on the other side of the street with their pants also around their ankles and the community even has it's own police detachment to try to curb the constant violence crack and gang warfare.
in one night last spring two seperate and unrelated shootings resulted in death. if you want to compare communities drive through chinatown at 12am then go drive through the bayshore district or parts of the filmore district and tenderloin. good luck.
as long as that community model dominates - hard working blacks will abandon their world and take on that "white" persona as soon as they become successful and sympathy will be hard to come by for those that ruin their community and then cry for reparations and more handouts and field leveling tactics.
until diligent black men stay in their communities and act as role models for young fatherless punks and leaders for their community nationwide, clowns like sharpton will continue to dominate and the rational elements of the community will remain unheard.
black men: take back your communities!
[ 09-06-2001: Message edited by: mrfish ]
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Im not a racisist by any means, I do have friends of different cultures and creeds and colors. My love for or caring for people goes way farther then the color of ones skin.
However from what I have noticed; in general the black communities tend to bring them selves down.
I have noticed that it is very well known that when a primarily black populated community is present, that community is generally run down, and crime rates are higher.
I have lived in various places, and with all kinds. Their are bad apples in every race, creed, so I understand that a few bad examples shouldnt reflect upon the whole.
Statistically speaking though, large groups of black communities protest about what they do not have and how/why they are not treated as well as other groups, and proclaim that they are owed somehting. I say that they are owed nothing. I understand that ignorance of the past was ever present, and evil definatly a force in the past.
Why live in the past though? I think that all the garbage about oweing anyone anything is dumb.
Let the past be known, then move on and make a change for the better.
I see that priorities in the youth of blacks are skewed. If someone cannot afford to live in a sound home/apartment with food clothing, or support for thier children, why then spend money on frivoulous things such as the 5000$ rims on the car that barely runs.
You see alot of frivoulious "look at me and what I have to prove" attitude in the hip hop/rap scene.
Master P has an entire mansion that is lined with golden plated walls and everything that only a king would ever need/desire. I see way to much emphisis on material things in these commnuities.
I Think that if anything is going to ever change with the attiude others feel towards or the attitudes that are within the black communites,... The change will have to come from within.
Poeple that preach hate Malcom x and others who are for Black empowerment are doing nothing but hurting the way others see them as a part of intelligent and peacefull society.
anyway... I think someone that has an outlook of lets move on, and understand the 'weve learned from the past" focus will be a great leader and example reguardless of color.
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Yes there are some old attitudes out there and yes discrimination against minorities is wrong but that doesn't justify discriminating against non-minorities (we aren't the majority anymore, just not protected) and discrimination is a horrible thing but legally sanctioned discrimination is wrong and should have no part in any gov't. And that is what imo makes 'affirmative action' so terrible it is sanctioned and enforced by the gov't, legal mandatory discrimination. If I was to set up the united whiteboy collage fund (scholarships just for whites, or the nation organization for the aid and advancement of white people I’d be called racist.
And all that crap about what went on before doesn't change the fact that discrimination is wrong any mater who you single out.
Also when you take a young white guy who's broke with just and starting out and he sees a less qualified person getting promoted ahead of him (if he can even get the job in the first place) and then you tell him he has been held back in life because he gets all the brakes (you do realize don't you that affirmative action doesn't hurt the rich white guy who already has the $$$, just the poor guy who already has it as bad as the black man, 'cause poverty is one thing that never has discriminated, it'll suck no mater what color you are)
You have the perfect recipe for you next clansman or skinhead
It’ll be a great day when working class people of all colors realize it's not about black and white but about have and have not
[ 09-06-2001: Message edited by: capt. apathy ]
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Originally posted by Yoj:
The opposition to affirmative action comes from the assumption that the playing field is level to begin with.
- Yoj
Yoj, that has nothing to do with it. The government regulating discrimination against a segment of the population for the purpose of "equalizing" the playing field is ridiculous.
SOB
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Its pretty obvious to me that we're into a subject that's too big for a forum - whole books could be written.
In any case, if I accept (purely for argument's sake) that affirmative action is inherently flawed, how do you propose that minorities be guaranteed a fair crack at opportunities? After all, someone saw a need for that legislation to begin with. Simply doing away with all affirmative action programs can't be the answer. What's your alternative?
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One of my black friends once told me he despised affirmative action. He felt that it "dumbed down" the black male/female. Whats more, most were falling for it. He saw it as another control of the white man.
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Nothing quite like a bunch of white american males discussing "the black community". Priceless :)
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Originally posted by SOB:
Yoj, that has nothing to do with it. The government regulating discrimination against a segment of the population for the purpose of "equalizing" the playing field is ridiculous.
SOB
If and when that happens I agree. However, affirmative action was never intended to regulate "discrimination against a segment of the population".
To listen to this thread one would think that white males in America are massively unemployed because all the good jobs have been filled by less qualified minorities (and women). When I look around that's sure not what I see. One can always find cases of inequity - the question is, is there more or less inequity now than there was. I submit more people are more fairly treated now than used to be. The howls of protest from the occasional white victims sounds an awful lot more like anger over lost privilege than genuine harm.
Doing this through legislation is bound to not always be fair. The legislation exists because this society would not change itself without it - and left to itself would return to the past in a heartbeat.
- Yoj
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yoj, yes simply doing away with affirmitve action IS the answer. then just outlaw discrimanation against anyone.
and red ant. i'm not talking about black life i'm talking about a discrimanative gov't policy and how the working class is getting played agianst ourselves by the rich and the media
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Originally posted by Red Ant:
Nothing quite like a bunch of white american males discussing "the black community". Priceless :)
Lol - actually, though it appears to be American males, its not all white.
- Yoj
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. One can always find cases of inequity - the question is, is there more or less inequity now than there was. I submit more people are more fairly treated now than used to be. The howls of protest from the occasional white victims sounds an awful lot more like anger over lost privilege than genuine harm.
Gov’t sanctioned discrimination is the worst possible kind I don’t care if it's only one person or many actually if we are going to talk about protecting a minority you can't get any more of a minority than 1 lone individual
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affirmative action = reverse discrimination
more times than it means equal opportunity
corporations are scared toejameless of the likes of jj and sharpton as the media then jumps in and fries their arse, guilty or not..
doesn't matter the color of ones skin, it's what is in their hearts and minds -> pre-employment interviewing and testing. For the gov to say you HAVE to have so many black, pink, green, purple ppl working at a place is WRONG! It should be the most qualified & productive regardless of sex and color. The the one signing the paychecks should be able to hire who he deems as the right individual for HIS company.
"Doing this through legislation is bound to not always be fair. The legislation exists because this society would not change itself without it - and left to itself would return to the past in a heartbeat.
- Yoj"
Don't agree Yoj, it can't go back. We are past that here in the US and in most other civilized countries. Left to accelerate with the jj's and the like will only fuel the fire of racial tension making it harder for minorities to get ahead not easier.
[ 09-06-2001: Message edited by: Eagler ]
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Originally posted by capt. apathy:
yoj, yes simply doing away with affirmitve action IS the answer. then just outlaw discrimanation against anyone.
Discrimination was outlawed before affirmative action came in - at least in education, housing and hiring. It turns out to be impossible to prove discrimination in most cases. In jobs, employers simply stated that they hired the most qualified people they could, and it just happened they were all white. That might have occasionally been true, but usually it simply indicated that being white was a "qualification".
Capt. I admire your idealism, but simply saying "outlaw discrimination" is naive, unless you can find an unshakably objective set of criteria to go by. Nobody could ever find one in the past, and it ws not for lack of trying.
- Yoj
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Originally posted by Red Ant:
Nothing quite like a bunch of white american males discussing "the black community". Priceless :)
so you need to be black to discuss the black community? does 'it' exist in a vaccuum?
the black community holds the white male community directly responsible for it's woes, how can either avoid a discussion?
if a doctor accused you of stealing do you need to be a doctor to answer their charges?
when the black community characterizes white males in the simplistic way you have do you feel that is 'priceless' as well, or does it just go one way?
try posting an opinion and not yet another tired predictable sound bite.
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Originally posted by Red Ant:
Nothing quite like a bunch of white american males discussing "the black community". Priceless :)[/QUOTE
An extreme asumption if I ever saw one.
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Originally posted by Yoj:
Its pretty obvious to me that we're into a subject that's too big for a forum - whole books could be written.
In any case, if I accept (purely for argument's sake) that affirmative action is inherently flawed, how do you propose that minorities be guaranteed a fair crack at opportunities? After all, someone saw a need for that legislation to begin with. Simply doing away with all affirmative action programs can't be the answer. What's your alternative?
That question in itself is flawed. Hell, how to you guarantee that EVERYONE is guaranteed a fair crack at opportunities. There's bigotry everywhere, people who will consider you less for a job because you're Black, White, Hispanic, Asian, Ugly, Southern, Fat, Thin, Gay, Strait, etc. Why should I give more of a toejam about one group of people being discriminated against than others?
When whites become the minority in California will affirmative action suddenly cover them? Affirmative action is government regulated discrimination, pure and simple. Getting rid of it entirely sounds like a good answer to me.
And "After all, someone saw a need for that legislation to begin with."??? I won't give you toejam about this, I just demand that you take it back! Have you seen some of the laws that are on the books? LOL! :D
SOB
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And Eagler - "The the one signing the paychecks should be able to hire who he deems as the right individual for HIS company" simply means lets return to those thrilling days of yesteryear. If you think mere profit motive will make people hire purely on ability, you're less of a judge of human nature than I had thought.
Open that door and we're on the slippery slope back to separate drinking fountains.
- Yoj
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Originally posted by Yoj:
If and when that happens I agree. However, affirmative action was never intended to regulate "discrimination against a segment of the population".
To listen to this thread one would think that white males in America are massively unemployed because all the good jobs have been filled by less qualified minorities (and women). When I look around that's sure not what I see. One can always find cases of inequity - the question is, is there more or less inequity now than there was. I submit more people are more fairly treated now than used to be. The howls of protest from the occasional white victims sounds an awful lot more like anger over lost privilege than genuine harm.
Doing this through legislation is bound to not always be fair. The legislation exists because this society would not change itself without it - and left to itself would return to the past in a heartbeat.
- Yoj
Oh, I see, I've been missing it the whole time. Since I'm a white male, I'm privledged and people are beating down my door every day trying to force money and good jobs upon me. I can't believe that got by me!
SOB
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Unfortunately the opposite has come around. I’ve worked in fab shops with men who couldn't read a tapemeasure who've had their job for along time (he had been there 7 years when I quit and probably is still there 13 years later) whining how the white guy keeps him down 'cause he cant get a promotion. And I do my best to help all people to get improve themselves I offered on many occasions to teach this guy but he had no interest in learning, didn't need the info got all the overtime he wanted and if he knew more stuff they'd just make him do more.
In contrast I’ve also seen minorities put in 'dumb' jobs where they don't have the opportunity to learn new skills. In this situation I’ve gone h2h with the boss and asked for these people to be assigned to work with me. This is the only solution to ending this problem. By reversing the discrimination you don’t end it. You just give the bigots a justification for continuing
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Originally posted by SOB:
That question in itself is flawed. Hell, how to you guarantee that EVERYONE is guaranteed a fair crack at opportunities. There's bigotry everywhere, people who will consider you less for a job because you're Black, White, Hispanic, Asian, Ugly, Southern, Fat, Thin, Gay, Strait, etc. Why should I give more of a toejam about one group of people being discriminated against than others?
When whites become the minority in California will affirmative action suddenly cover them? Affirmative action is government regulated discrimination, pure and simple. Getting rid of it entirely sounds like a good answer to me.
Of course there is always SOME bias toward everyone. Still, I don't think there was ever a time in this country where, for example, left-handed people as a group were relegated to only the lowest types of work due to a society-wide prejudice. And if and when white males actually can be shown to be a discriminated against minority in California, I would expect that affirmative action would apply to them. Unless something better is invented.
And "After all, someone saw a need for that legislation to begin with."??? I won't give you toejam about this, I just demand that you take it back! Have you seen some of the laws that are on the books? LOL! :D
SOB
Lol - yeah - point well taken :)
- Yoj
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Originally posted by Yoj:
And Eagler - "The the one signing the paychecks should be able to hire who he deems as the right individual for HIS company" simply means lets return to those thrilling days of yesteryear. If you think mere profit motive will make people hire purely on ability, you're less of a judge of human nature than I had thought.
- Yoj
I did & so did my peers. I didn't care if they were green, asian, blue or from mars, I always hired the most qualified person for the most I was allowed to offer. Qualified & responsible ppl under me always made my job easier with less headaches :)
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Its not a question of racism anymore, its a big cultural difference...if your mama is on welfare, chances are you will be too...if your Mama is a hard worker, chances are you will be too...thats the 'cultural' connection I see.
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Yoj
I dont understand how you think that ANY FORM of racial profileing for the purpose of advancement is a good thing.
My question is this. You seem to give the impression that you are a black guy.
Are you In support of the Governemtal support for those that are/have been not treated fairly in the past, and that the white people now in some form or another deserve a form of unleveling of the playing field because of of an ignorant past?
If it is, then I say two wrongs to not make a right.
the past was the past, and hopefully poeple can realise this. How about we learn to progress forward, forget about skin colors.
If someone is to be hired or chosen for ANYTHING in LIFE... let the quality of the person being looked into be the deciding factor, not some Determined statistic that NEEDS to be filled.
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Originally posted by SOB:
Oh, I see, I've been missing it the whole time. Since I'm a white male, I'm privledged and people are beating down my door every day trying to force money and good jobs upon me. I can't believe that got by me!
SOB
Wheeep! wheeep! (Sarcasm detector just went off). You know there's the privilege that comes with being born with a silver spoon in your mouth and the privilege of being allowed to line up first, and that I was talking about the latter.
- Yoj
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wtg highflyer,
you said what i've been trying to say, more clearly with alot less words.
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Originally posted by highflyer:
the past was the past, and hopefully poeple can realise this. How about we learn to progress forward, forget about skin colors.
How about we do that. Its by far the best way out. The problem is nobody seems to know how.
I think that my main point in jumping into this thread is that most of white America seems to think we're a lot further down that road that we really are. For every employer we have (like Eagler) who sees his life is easier if he hires colorblind, we have a dozen who hire minorities fairly only because they have to - because they honestly believe that people from that group (whatever it is) will not be good employees (for whatever reason). And that goes for landlords, store owners (who follow me so's I don't shoplift), and so on. If you haven't lived it, its easy to think it the world is different than it is. America is still a seriously racist country (and no - I'm not saying only white people are racists. There are few segments of this society that aren't). Its just become rather gauche to express it.
So, by all means, lets all throw off that stupid baggage and (to paraphrase Dr. King) start judging not by the color of skin but by the content of character. If you know a way to do that I nominate you to lead the way - I'll follow. I'm afraid there is no clear path there and we're left trying to use laws to do what should be done by conscience and common sense. (I have always noted that commen sense was even more rare than common courtesy).
- Yoj
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Yoj.. I pose this question on you..
What do you feel about the actions of todays black youth?
And I mean as an overall figure.
My point is this: The majority of crime, and negitivity are brought forth from this portion of americas socitey.
Please dont get me wrong, I am not saying that the end all be all of crime is within the black community.
Trust me, white, asian, and hispanic as well as others are obvously a factor of the problems of society today.
It disturbs me that no matter how many times I look at the situation, I wind up finding that blacks for the most part have these issues and are a part in most crimes.
Now this is what I find and I may be off.
Those who speak of racial equaility, and trodding down of the system not being equal, are those those who are the same teaching thier children to continusoulsy remember the past, almost to the point that a bred inner hatred is created against whites. I wonder where all the Parents are in all of this?
I say that a child is born, whether he be white/black/asian/martian who cares,... he is a child with natural human ideas and the willingless to be taught anything. I say that racisim and the negitive actions that are to be carried on later in life (if carried on) are taught or brought uip with these ideals.
If you raise your family like hoodlums, then the result is that you will have a hoodlum family (white or black)
If you raise your family with honesty, vaules, and respect for other poeple, their vaules, and ideas, you will have a much more stable socitey. (white or black)
I think the parents are the ultimate factor in how the person is developed in the early years.
Lets start to teach our children the GOOD things in life, and not dwell on what happend hundreds of years ago, or even 40 for that matter.
Lead the way....
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Originally posted by highflyer:
Yoj.. I pose this question on you..
What do you feel about the actions of todays black youth?
And I mean as an overall figure.
My point is this: The majority of crime, and negitivity are brought forth from this portion of americas socitey.
Please dont get me wrong, I am not saying that the end all be all of crime is within the black community.
Trust me, white, asian, and hispanic as well as others are obvously a factor of the problems of society today.
It disturbs me that no matter how many times I look at the situation, I wind up finding that blacks for the most part have these issues and are a part in most crimes.
Now this is what I find and I may be off.
Those who speak of racial equaility, and trodding down of the system not being equal, are those those who are the same teaching thier children to continusoulsy remember the past, almost to the point that a bred inner hatred is created against whites. I wonder where all the Parents are in all of this?
I say that a child is born, whether he be white/black/asian/martian who cares,... he is a child with natural human ideas and the willingless to be taught anything. I say that racisim and the negitive actions that are to be carried on later in life (if carried on) are taught or brought uip with these ideals.
If you raise your family like hoodlums, then the result is that you will have a hoodlum family (white or black)
If you raise your family with honesty, vaules, and respect for other poeple, their vaules, and ideas, you will have a much more stable socitey. (white or black)
I think the parents are the ultimate factor in how the person is developed in the early years.
Lets start to teach our children the GOOD things in life, and not dwell on what happend hundreds of years ago, or even 40 for that matter.
Lead the way....
And how do you feel about this?
The majority of crime comes from the black society, maybe. I don't know whether this is true or not (it's a generalization, to be frank; you assume that because most of those arrested and convicted are black that balcks are the major source of crime? Oh, sorry, the source goes beyond blacks... more on that later. I mean to say, you assume that blacks account for most criminals?) so I'll just make it easy and assume for purposes of discussion that it is true.
Now, these children are born into one of these "affordable districts." All this "cheap housing" is not the answer in itself. It is just another discrimination trap. It takes blacks who are, shall we say, financially disadvantaged, and places them together in an environment that is the perfect breeding ground for crime, pollution, what have you. Why? The vast majority of crime can be traced to - that's right! - disadvantage. Ironically, in commiting crimes to try and move ahead the world, crime can only bring more disadvantage to the rest, and to the criminal. High crime draws funding away from public institution, peopla care less and less about what happens to this cheap district, despite posturing to the contrary, and everything spirals downhill.
This stigma of crime is attached to the black population and the neighborhood they come from. The right figures that this must mean that the people just don't care enough to move themselves ahead. WRONG! When you take these people and put them all into this community, the criminal actions of a few will very quickly degrade the community as a whole. They get stuck and are unable to get unstuck. They are unable to improve their situation because of this cycle. Crimes are committed. Education and public services run down. Work is harder to find. It's hard to aquire the skills for a decent job, period. And of course the whole time you have this label of low income, black person applied to you.
Forming these "projects" is an anti-solution. How ironic. It only magnifies the problems that we are all complaining about here. It is simply another part of the problem, and one of the root sources of the stigma associated with the "black community" (which doesn't really exist, so far as I can tell. No way are all black people even close to unified). And then all of you people assume that because we are doing so much to try and "help" blacks (completely and utterly false) that it must be totally their problem!
These low-income housing neighborhoods you speak of, mrfish, only seperate people into groups and make it easier to keep people at where they are - rock bottom. Just another form of control. And people think that it would really help them, if they would just work at it. This saddens me. WISE UP PEOPLE! WE ARE NOT MAKING THINGS BETTER!
Now, what's the answer? I don't know. But for a start, diversify! Spreading people around and mixing things up is the only way to start improving the situation. Putting low-income people into groups like that, especially if they're black (this is because of race issues that it causes more problems with black communities) only worsens the situation. And, by the way, there are many, many poor Italian and other communities throughout the country. You just never hear about them.
Just one more thing, an answer to your success stories - people coming from across the ocean usually come from a far more group oriented culture where hard work admittedly is a stronger ethic than it is here. This is even more true with Asian community. Most of them come from cultures with a much stronger emphasis on respect of aurthority and other aspects that make it easier for them to resist the pull of making ends meet through illegitimate means. They come with expectations of success, if they apply themselves hard. Many and most poor blacks here no longer hold these hopes. They've been discriminated against and poor for generations. What amount of work could do any better for them? This is an underestimated part of the issue, and one that people often shrug off as simple apathy. Wrongly, by my conclusion.
So, I've come to the end of this long-winded argument. I hope at least a couple of you will see what I'm driving at. It's late though, so it's less than perfect. Enjoy... you all have your hearts in the right place, I think, but have, IMHO, the wrong idea of where the problem really lies. Either that or you're in denial. But I think better of you than that...
S!
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so ispar.....so i understand fully....other cultures in disadvantaged neighborhoods succeed because of their morals and work ethic which blacks don't have because their self esteem is crashed from years of white male discrimination.
they won't seek a legitimate way out and government handouts and headstarts don't work because it makes them feel seperate? do i understand you correctly?
so what do you feel their options are if they wont pull themselves out and the efforts of others are futile?
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General Colin Powell,Retired.Raised in Harlem in NYC and the south Bronx.Both terrible slum areas.Worked his way up the U.S Army chain of command through a lot of discrimination in the 50s 60s and 70s. Now Secretary of State of the U.S.A.He gets no credit from NAACP because he does not follow the party line.Many individual sucessful blacks are ignored because they do not follow the party line.One Supreme Court Judge comes to mind.The J.Js an A.S.s and Mfumes of the country keep their income coming in by causing problems and keeping the ball in the air.Their color is green.
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The bottom line is education. If you have a well educated society you will eliminate a very large chunk of the reason for affirmative action.
I went to school in Baltimore county and Baltimore city 25+ years ago. The difference between the two school systems were as obvious as black and white. In the county we had pretty much everything we needed for a good education. In the city we had little or nothing.
Equalize the education system and affirmative action will be a distant memory. I give George Bush credit for understanding this, but he will never get the education program he wants from this congress.
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Ispar put a finger on an important point - and its very much a part of what I'm on about. There is this perception that young black males are responsible for the majority of crime. Its simply not true, as a look at the crime stats will clearly show. Its much the same as the perception people have that society is more dangerous now than in the past, when in fact serious crime has been going steadily down for at least the last thirty years. What IS true is that black and latino men are JAILED more often than their proportion of the society would justify. Why? Because they are seen as a menace and therefore the police and courts focus on them. And they are seen that way in part because the prejudices of society are reflected back and reinforced by the media (the same media that are so often painted as "liberal" but are in fact simply after a good story). The fact remains that most black and hispanic young men are law abiding members of society.
And Krush (hiya bud!) also has a very good point. Equalize education and the reason for affirmative action goes away, because then everyone is prepared with the same tool kit, and the ONLY thing that separates people is their talent and motivation.
As things stand now, we offer most of our young people a decent set of carpenter's tools, but provide one segment with a rusty saw and a busted hammer and then wonder why they don't make nicer furniture - and we point to the occasional one who builds a wonderful cabinet and say "why can't you all make things like that?", never thinking its another way of saying "why aren't you all above average?"
However - even education doesn't solve all the problems - there still needs to be some kind of watchdog. As difficult as bias might be to prove, there still has to be a way to TRY to give every member of the society the chance to move ahead based on their talent and motivation. You can do away with quotas and affirmative hiring programs, but if a qualified and hard working person is denied the chance to move ahead because of their race (or religion or gender or any other bogus reason) there needs to be some recourse. We're still a long way from a colorblind Horatio Alger nation.
- Yoj
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you guys get an A+ for regurgitating the latest pop culture opinions of race issues in a safe, politically correct and super non-offensive way. ( i especially love how everyone prefaces any truthful statement with "don't get me wrong i have lot's of black friends" - good training!)
-but in the interest of reality-
you still can't explain why the asian community in san francisco succeeded so well. bottom line.....
you can not deny that all of the same elements are there and that the outcome is dependant on the people themselves: discrimination (even enforced by state legislation at one time),poverty, overcrowding, underfunded schools (or lack of altogether), the lure and option of crime as an escape, mean old white guys making funny cartoons about them and being big meanies and hurting their feelings. It's alllllllll there.
AND - as if that weren't enough - english as a second language. and no - the people who come here are most certainly NOT of the upper crust well educated sectors of other societies. anyone who says that knows diddly about the asian populations in san francisco. and in fact is it's a little iritating that someone would make that guess without having even a cursory knowledge of immigration realities. many are refugees from the communist system or people that can't get ahead because they dont have the necessary bribe money it takes to succeed in china.
most are from the poor southern areas around canton and had to wait and work up to 10 years to get to hong kong and another 5-10 to get here. some are barely educated in their own language much less another. they depend on the success of one immigrant to assist in the rest coming over.the rich mandarin chinese typically stay in china or they come over and go right into the upper crust. many even go to places like switzerland or the uk where their companies have interests.
now, according to your media conditioned 'go-to guide for politically correct answers' based entirely on the latest fads of sociology, you are supposed to say something like:
"yes but the spirit of the black man has been broken by years of mean white guys"
or some equally heart-string tugging excuse.
when you are tempted to run for the safety of those excuses remember, if you say it is because the chinese have a superior work ethic you are simply, by inference, saying that the blacks don't.
if you are saying that blacks don't have this ethic because of white people not liking them, then you are infering that they can't or at least haven't been able to develop those skills of their own accord - and that their survival depends on how someone else feels about them. so again you are criticising them.
the reality is simple. they aren't competing and it's nobody's fault but their own.
[ 09-07-2001: Message edited by: mrfish ]
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but if a qualified and hard working person is denied the chance to move ahead because of their race (or religion or gender or any other bogus reason) there needs to be some recourse.
You are absolutely right on this one. However there is no recourse for a white male who has been discriminated against by affirmative action. And that’s the point I’ve been trying to make. If you are a minority and are discriminated against you have legal recourse, (some may say it's hard to prove I think it's hard to defend against) with or without affirmative action. If you are a white male and are discriminated against (this happens all the time we have legal groups, funds, and policies specifically designed for this purpose) even if you can prove absolutely beyond any doubt that it happened, it doesn't matter because you will be told you are not a 'protected class'
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Quote from Yoj-
"In any case, if I accept (purely for argument's sake) that affirmative action is inherently flawed, how do you propose that minorities be guaranteed a fair crack at opportunities?"
Isn't that the problem? That there is some "need" to guarantee fairness? Who said life is fair? It seems that the only thing most minorities suffer from is not a lack of opportunity, it is a lack of self esteem. Most minority children suffer from being told that they won't succeed their whole life. Imagine if they grew up knowing that despite the challenges of life, they can work hard and acheive anything they want?
We don't need government to make things "fair", we need more positive support for the children to accomplish their dreams.
-Greese
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It's not as simple as a lack of self esteem, but neither is it as simple as racial discrimination.
The majority of situations cited in defense of affirmative action are economic, yet the remedy for this is racial? A child of a poor family living in a shack in the middle of nowhere is bad off, be he black, white or hispanic. Therefore the equitable solution if you're going to give a hand to those disadvantaged by the system would be to do so based on financial background, not hereditary background.
If discrimination persists, a financial based remedy program would by definition benifit the discriminated group in a higher proportion. If it fades out, you will see a levelling of racial proportions recieving benifits. You would not have to make some sort of arbitrary judgement of when the playing field was evened (which is quite impossible by the way), instead simply scale admissions, opportunities downward where applicable based on real and present hardships. Which includes hispanics, asians, and other minorites, often discounted by the cause of the day.
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they are seen that way in part because the prejudices of society are reflected back and reinforced by the media
Part of the problem is african american culture, I know whites aren't any more intelligent than blacks but when I see/hear 'hood dialect' I can't help but think how stupid it sounds and makes them look.
It reminds me of the old movies where blacks were always portrayed as dumb bellybutton 'Uncle Toms', except in this case it isn't white folk hanging a negative stereotype on blacks - they are doing it to themselves.
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and jj not to be out done:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20010907-82960520.htm (http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20010907-82960520.htm) :rolleyes:
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Herr Fish, you pretty much guarantee that you're not going to see my point. If you think the Asian experience in San Francisco parallels the African experience in the US its almost not worth discussing.
However, just to touch on the most obvious difference, the asians came to America as a land of opportunity, hoping and expecting to make a better life for themselves. Africans were forcibly relocated to a place where they had no future by definition. How you can gloss over something so blatant is beyond me.
From there on there are a myriad of other differences - not the least of which is their second language, which, far from a handicap, helped emphasize an insular community and a social identity, something African's never had an opportunity to develop in any fundimental way - their own languages were stripped away on arrival. Not to mention the fact that your example of San Francisco is telling. In fact, asian success is URBAN success, while the african-american experience is essentially rural until this century. The Chinese rural experience mostly revolved around the Ku Li building the railroads, which opened their door to America. But you find little evidence of anyreal social success until they formed enclaves in cities and took over the service niches.
In addition, there has always been (not just in America) a hierarchy of despite. Italians, Germans, Swedes and Irish have been despised at various times, but those who hated them generally preferred them to Asians, and preferred Asians to "darkies and Mexes". Its easier to overcome biases when you're not "the worst that can happen".
Yes, the Asians worked hard and many found success. Black Americans have overall been less successful. Why is that? They wouldn't work as hard? Bull! ("Yeah - they're all lazy and shiftless".) Lack of intelligence? Nonsense! ("Yeah - they're genetically inferior".) Pure chance? Uh huh!
So, let me ask - why do YOU think black Americans have not been as successful as Asians? Here is your challenge - to give a really meaningful reason that doesn't incorporate an unfounded bias.
- Yoj
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Originally posted by jihad:
I can't help but think how stupid it sounds and makes them look.
Wow! As though the way a person talked was a matter of personal choice. I can just imagine the reactions here if you made that comment about white people from Alabama.
I don't understand these Black kids - you'd think with that quality education, exposure to so many cultures, and all those elocution lessons they had, they'd do better.
Doh!
- Yoj
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Well the thing is this I am 28 year old middle class american. I have never owned a slave nor do i condone it. My ancestors didn't at least as far back as I can check I am second generation Italian American. So none of my relative were even in the US during the civil war or before. Why should my money go to pay reparations that I was not directly or indirectly involved with. And how is this money going to help anyway.
And the whole attitude of everyone today is blame someone else for my misfortune, and never ever taking responsibility for ones own actions.
[ 09-07-2001: Message edited by: narsus ]
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Originally posted by Greese:
Who said life is fair? It seems that the only thing most minorities suffer from is not a lack of opportunity, it is a lack of self esteem.
-Greese
Greese that's far too simple. Nobody is saying life should be made fair. Only that no group of citizens be barred from the table. Lack of self esteem? Its displays of self esteem that are often condemned - we've seen comments like that in this thread.
For you to suggest that lack of opportunity is not the problem just shows me how far you are from the experience. You probably did not often have your peers suggest you go back to Europe. Did they often call you a "farm bunny?". Did you often have apartments suddenly become unavailable when you showed up to see them? I guess you were used to overhearing your boss say "that whitey has got to go". Did they make you wait at the amusement park rides until you could be seated with another white kid? Do people often tell "white jokes" and then look at you quickly to see if you're offended? Need I go on? I can.
Its pervasive, and much of it is sunconscious. True, some exceptional people can overcome it, through grit, determination and hard work. However, its unreasonable to expect everyone to be exceptional. And its unreasonable for anyone to have to wade through that crap - life is NOT fair and its not easy. We all have our burdens to carry - having to carry an extra grand piano just because of how you look is not something that belongs in this society.
- Yoj
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Originally posted by narsus:
Well the thing is this I am 28 year old middle class american. I have never owned a slave nor do i condone it. My ancestors didn't at least as far back as I can check I am second generation Italian American. So none of my relative were even in the US during the civil war or before. Why should my money go to pay reparations that I was not directly or indirectly involved with. And how is this money going to help anyway.
And the whole attitude of everyone today is blame someone else for my misfortune, and never ever taking responsibility for ones own actions.
[ 09-07-2001: Message edited by: narsus ]
Narsus I agree completely. The reparations issue has no merit. It just happens to rest on some political hot buttons that a few opportunists will keep pushing.
- Yoj
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"So, let me ask - why do YOU think black Americans have not been as successful as Asians? Here is your challenge - to give a really meaningful reason that doesn't incorporate an unfounded bias.
- Yoj"
One reason, I'd speculate, is the family structure has held together better in the average Asian family more so than the average African American one. Hard to get ahead in a one parent family, hard to accomplish many things in an enviroment which doesn't place family first, self gratification second.. but then again there aren't too many Asian baseball, football or basketball players out there. Don't hear any cries about discrimination there, oh yeah - they are chosen by their abilities - what a concept :)
No simple answers, just know ole jj and al should be run out of town by "their ppl". That act in itself would say alot to me.
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Yoj, using your example, how is the backwoods cracker any less underpriveledged or any less deserving?
And perhaps I manuever in more crass circles, but I've found there to be no shortage of redneck jokes. I needn't imagine the reaction, it's a fairly common stereotype that is unfortunately based on a very real socioeconomic status.
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"...the asians came to America as a land of opportunity, hoping and expecting to make a better life for themselves. Africans were forcibly relocated to a place where they had no future by definition... "
-oh, so it is there 'lot in life', the damage is done and irreversible and it has ruined them culturally forever. why did i assume that faced with this scenario it might occur to them to form tight knit supportive communities to overcome their predicament like asians?
Not to mention the fact that your example of San Francisco is telling. In fact, asian success is URBAN success, while the african-american experience is essentially rural until this century
- again that's just silly. rural chinese gold and railroad workers founded urban communities because it was the only place they were allowed to live in the cities. urban blacks ended up in places like harlem for the exact same reasons. the difference is that the chinese created a world of their own that didn't depend on any outside intervention and the blacks turned to crime and threw their hands up at the inequity of it all when the white community wouldnt let them in.
the outside world saw that there was profit to be made from interacting with chinatown so it eventually drew 'whites' into their world and them into 'white' society. all that can be found in harlem is crime and despair - there is simply no economic benefit on getting to know them or having anything to do with them.
additionally, you fail in your example to explain how that relates to the success of asians in places like oklahoma, idaho, utah, iowa etc - and the failure of black communities in those same states.
From there on there are a myriad of other differences - not the least of which is their second language, which, far from a handicap, helped emphasize an insular community and a social identity, something African's never had an opportunity to develop in any fundimental way
- all this gives is a catalyst by which community formation happens - it doesn't dictate the quality of the community by any stretch. if this is true then why isn't there more success in latino communities? blacks have formed strictly bounded communities whether you see that or not - it's just that the community structure doesn't supply consequence or guidance like the asian community does. (a lot has more to do with the confusian family model and asian patriarchal heirarchy than language)
In addition, there has always been (not just in America) a hierarchy of despite. Italians, Germans, Swedes and Irish have been despised at various times, but those who hated them generally preferred them to Asians, and preferred Asians to "darkies and Mexes".
Why do you suppose that is? why do some races assimilate and others dont. why is there a stereotype that claims asians are superior in math? do you mean that the 'white community' would create a stereotype that negates it's own ability? because all generalzations are rooted in facts. the more experience any culture has with another - the more realistic their generaliztions and stereotypes become. the silly generalizations that applied to asians 150 years ago are abandoned in favor of generalizations that more closely mirror actual experiences while the generalizations of blacks are really the same just unspoken now due to the media efforts of the last 1/4 century.
why do YOU think black Americans have not been as successful as Asians? Here is your challenge - to give a really meaningful reason that doesn't incorporate an unfounded bias
- i don't have an unfounded bias toward blacks as you are trying to imply - only opinions based on experience. and i could care less whether or not they match your pop culture world view that assures everyone feels good about themsleves regardless of the facts.
ex: if you have seen 10 border collies in your life and each has tried to bite you - chances are you won't walk up and try to pet border collie #11 no matter how much people tell you he might be an exception to the rule. it is an instict and has insured our survival as a species (ex:berries make sick - dont eat berries) not a race and it is not wrong to generalize based on experience no matter how much they try to condition you to the contrary these days or whose feelings get hurt. the truth stands without emotion.
blacks aren't inferior - imo, they are like a 22 year old kid that still lives with his mother in the extra room and doesnt work because she keeps making excuses for him and the dad is too limp to kick him out. he will never feel free, independant and a full man until he understands that his destiny is in no hands other than his own.
for the black community, this means a culture shift. fathers stay with their families and provide wisdom and guidance and above all consequence for bad actions to young blacks. education is encouraged not discouraged (try being a black kid that uses multisyllabic words and see how long it takes to get beat up by another black kid)
they need to say "to hell with what the white community thinks and if they dont let us in we'll start our own businesses and cater to our own kind and exploit our own demographic and take black money from white owned chains and redirect it to ourselves"
they need to say "to hell with entitlements, if your school doesnt want me then we'll start our own and grow it into something important and respectable through merit and acheivement alone" (most black schools focus on sociology instead of math, science and business - no wonder they aren't held in esteem - they only perpetuate the victim mentality)
they need to dismiss all these notions that they are helpless and realize their full potential to shine. every race has to compete and respects every other race by their ability to compete. lions in the wild won't carry one that can't compete - only our sense of compassion compels us to but it still carries an unnatural element and doesnt allow for full respect.
i dont want to see black people as helpless victims in need of support and my happy feelings - i want to see them as proud, independent and fully in command of their fate. quite simply, i want them to do what it takes to succeed regardless of the past and come into their own as a race so we can put racial problems behind us. it won't end as a result of condition and reeducation but rather as a correct appeal to the insticts we already have about success and failure.
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Originally posted by Eagler:
One reason, I'd speculate, is the family structure has held together better in the average Asian family more so than the average African American one. Hard to get ahead in a one parent family, hard to accomplish many things in an enviroment which doesn't place family first, self gratification second.. but then again there aren't too many Asian baseball, football or basketball players out there. Don't hear any cries about discrimination there, oh yeah - they are chosen by their abilities - what a concept :)
No simple answers, just know ole jj and al should be run out of town by "their ppl". That act in itself would say alot to me.
Actually, family structure in Black America has held up quite well. It may not be as strong overall as Asian, but it is as strong or stronger overall than in White culture. The single parent families you refer to are probably no more common in the Black community than anywere else, while the influence of extended family is usually very strong. And in any case, the disintegration of the family you do see is less a cause than an effect.
As for not hearing about discrimination in sports, nonsense! Yes, most of the major sports have been hauled (kicking and screaming) into hiring PLAYERS for their ability. Coaching and management is still an ongoing battle. This argument does not impress me that much. Its not some ancient history - I remember Robinson breaking the color bar in baseball. Black pro quarterbacks are a very recent innovation.
Lets see where we stand - how long before there is a Black Tenor performing in major opera? There's still plenty of high profile places that are "off limits".
- Yoj
[ 09-07-2001: Message edited by: Yoj ]
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Originally posted by Fatty:
Yoj, using your example, how is the backwoods cracker any less underpriveledged or any less deserving?
Actually, I don't see a lot of difference, given the economic condition. But the cracker can be made to fade into society - a little education, some decent clothes, etc. Take away what makes him stand out and his lack of priviledge goes away.
- Yoj
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(http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20010907/capt.999859701south_africa_un_racism_dur101.jpg)
huh?
EU is sorry.... will al & jj sue them next?
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010907/wl/racism_conference.html (http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010907/wl/racism_conference.html)
Yoj, you are a cheerleader for your cause for sure..
[ 09-07-2001: Message edited by: Eagler ]
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Yoj-
Well, you have strong feelings, and for standing up I salute you (I rated you 5 stars).
I have not seen the problem you list as though they happen to every minority, however. The people I know all seem to treat each other, regardless of skin color, as equals. To me, living in LA, I just don't see the problems you list like they happen all the time. I think there is an over-sensitivity among minorities, and it's probably justified, but I don't see it. In fact, here's a god example to illustrate my point.
I work at a customer service desk, where I deal with a lot of the same customers repeatedly. The guy who worked here before me (and was black) was always getting upset at customers who had problems. He would even hang up on them (one reason he's not here anymore). He always blamed the problem on the perception that everyone was being racist. They, in fact were not, they just had problems with the way he handles their issues. I have talked with several of these customers, and understand completely what happened. His way of dealing with problems, whether concious or subconcious, was by thinking he was the victim of racism, when in fact, that was not happening at all. He often would perceive people doing things to him because of his skin color, that no one else ever saw. The fact he could not only spot the act itself, and then attribute it to racism, was a complete over-reaction.
His problem, was not racism, but that he'd been taught that people are racist against him and that was the root of his problems.
Now how to stop all this nonsense is something else.
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Maybe we should have affirmative actions in sports. You know NBA must have 1 white 1 black 1 asian 1 mex-american 1 native Amer. on the court at all times (or whatever the proper ratio to population is).
You know, that way everybody could make that kind of money. Don’t just try to hire the best try to hire the best you can from each segment of society.
I mean that way maybe even I can get some of that money. Surely even I can find a team whose quota is low in overweight/middle aged/redneck/construction workers.
I know it's absurd but no less so than what we deal with every day.
If you are in a minority that is not well represented in your trade and don't screw up to bad you will go right to the top, you don't even really need to be competent just show up every day and don't get in trouble.
I find it odd that black people who find no problem excepting that black people may be more successful at a sport (ratio of blacks/whites in the sport disproportionate to population) and call it natural ability.
Turn right around and complain that the ratio of blacks to whites in coaching doesn’t fit.
I guess it's ok for minorities to have natural ability over whites in certain areas.
but completely unthinkable for there to be more whites who are better at something.
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Wow! As though the way a person talked was a matter of personal choice. I can just imagine the reactions here if you made that comment about white people from Alabama.
I don't understand these Black kids - you'd think with that quality education, exposure to so many cultures, and all those elocution lessons they had, they'd do better.
Doh!
- Yoj
Are your saying it isn't a personal choice to learn to speak proper english? I'll have to call roadkill on that one.
I'm not making reference to a persons accent either, I'm talking about the ghetto language you hear on television, the movies, and everyday life. <I.E. axxed instead of asked>
What I meant is if you sound like a moron then you will probably be treated as one, and why is it the schools fault if blacks speak mongrelized english?
Seems to me the kids parents are more to blame than anyone else, schools aren't segregated here in Oklahoma so why the disparity in speech patterns?
Actually, I don't see a lot of difference, given the economic condition. But the cracker can be made to fade into society - a little education, some decent clothes, etc. Take away what makes him stand out and his lack of priviledge goes away
Thanks for making my point for me, as long as blacks keep believing they are victims and perpetuating the ghetto image other people will regard them as such.
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Originally posted by mrfish:
- i don't have an unfounded bias toward blacks as you are trying to imply - only opinions based on experience.
Sorry - I fail to see the difference. Either you don't think you have the biases that are so obviously there, or you think they have foundation.
If you base them on experiences, I can only regret that your experiences have been such a poor representation. My experience tells me how wrong you are, and when it comes to the experience of color in America, mine are more valid than yours.
- Yoj
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Originally posted by Greese:
Yoj-
Well, you have strong feelings, and for standing up I salute you (I rated you 5 stars).
I have not seen the problem you list as though they happen to every minority, however. The people I know all seem to treat each other, regardless of skin color, as equals. To me, living in LA, I just don't see the problems you list like they happen all the time. I think there is an over-sensitivity among minorities, and it's probably justified, but I don't see it. In fact, here's a god example to illustrate my point.
I work at a customer service desk, where I deal with a lot of the same customers repeatedly. The guy who worked here before me (and was black) was always getting upset at customers who had problems. He would even hang up on them (one reason he's not here anymore). He always blamed the problem on the perception that everyone was being racist. They, in fact were not, they just had problems with the way he handles their issues. I have talked with several of these customers, and understand completely what happened. His way of dealing with problems, whether concious or subconcious, was by thinking he was the victim of racism, when in fact, that was not happening at all. He often would perceive people doing things to him because of his skin color, that no one else ever saw. The fact he could not only spot the act itself, and then attribute it to racism, was a complete over-reaction.
His problem, was not racism, but that he'd been taught that people are racist against him and that was the root of his problems.
Now how to stop all this nonsense is something else.
Greese - you know the expression "just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you"? I too have seen people overreact or react to imagined slights. Just because you know someone who has it does not address the real slights that others really experience. If you don't see it, then you're not where it happens. Or you see it and simply don't notice it.
I'm glad you don't have to deal with it - you strike me as someone who would be bothered by it. However, its very real.
- Yoj
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Originally posted by jihad:
Are your saying it isn't a personal choice to learn to speak proper english? I'll have to call roadkill on that one.
I'm not making reference to a persons accent either, I'm talking about the ghetto language you hear on television, the movies, and everyday life. <I.E. axxed instead of asked>
Poor example - "axed" is the common pronunciation in New Orleans among all the people. Did they "choose" not to learn proper English?
What I meant is if you sound like a moron then you will probably be treated as one, and why is it the schools fault if blacks speak mongrelized english?
Seems to me the kids parents are more to blame than anyone else, schools aren't segregated here in Oklahoma so why the disparity in speech patterns?
EVERYONE speaks the way their immediate environment teaches them. If there is a disparity in speech patterns it is because the society there is segregated, even if the schools are not.
Thanks for making my point for me, as long as blacks keep believing they are victims and perpetuating the ghetto image other people will regard them as such.[/QB]
You missed the point. You can educate, train and cloth a Black person just as you can the cracker - but he doesn't become invisible in society. And as long as whites keep believing racism is a myth imagined by blacks it will continue.
- Yoj
[ 09-07-2001: Message edited by: Yoj ]
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Originally posted by Yoj:
[QB]
Sorry - I fail to see the difference. [qb]
hmmm - you don't see the difference between an unfounded bias and an opinion based on experience? most people find the contrast glaring and obvious.(one involves decisions based on fact, the other is the uncontested acceptance of an unsupported statement)
well... a bias is kind of like your kind of thoughts. you have the unfounded bias that all minorities are noble oppressed people and that the white majority is racist and oppressive. it isnt based on experience it is just what you think you need to say to look like the nice guy and get along with everyone and be in step with the herd.
[qb]My experience tells me how wrong you are, and when it comes to the experience of color in America, mine are more valid than yours.[qb]
well that kinda stands on it's own as far as nonsensical statements go - no one's views on race are more or less valid than anyone else's. i have been the target of racism from supremicists who don't like the fact that i am in a mixed marriage and it almost cost me my life on a backwoods camping trip but that is not what qualifies me to speak about the black community. i went to an all black school as a kid due to bussing regulations where i was the minority, but that isn't what qualifies me either. simple observation and logic are enough.
what are the qualities of a successful race vs. those of an unsuccessful one? you don't need to be a minority to answer that - you just need enough fact and the ability to reach a conclusion regardless of how it makes people feel about you.
you see if i didnt base my opinion on experience then i would be like you: full of canned safe opinions that you digested from from the mainstream like a good tool.
have you ever had a negative opinion about any race other than white males? why not - because there was none to be had? OR because it wasn't fashionable and someone might not like you?
your opinions on race might make sense some day when you stop trying to please everyone and accept the truth for what it is, warts and all.
you can go to the gym every day and become strong or you can try to brainwash everyone and make it so the whole world is conditioned to say you are strong whether you are or not. you can make it so that if someone says you look flabby then they are attacked and ostracized by the rest of the community. when things go uncontested people eventually accept them as the truth whether they are or not. there is only one truth in this example and in life - you are strong or you aren't.
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Originally posted by Yoj:
Herr Fish
and there's another sad example of your conditioning. the second someone doesn't agree with your pre-programmed views on race you - like every other good sheep - start in with the nazi references.
anyone with a view other than yours is a nazi huh yoj....
....right on cue
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mrfish, try visiting an impoverished white neighborhood in any city. You will find exactly the same, or not much different a situation. Trash, crime, grafitti, drugs. But the stats show that this community will be harder to find. Whites in this country, in general, are far better off economically than blacks. This is not due, at least not for the most part, to any lack of effort or will on the part of black Americans. This has been the case since long before the Civil War, as well as after it, with free blacks. They were denied opportunity and equal education, and what do you have now? Many of them are trapped in these communities with nowhere to go. Trapped. That's what these poor neighborhoods function as. Don't give me garbage about them ending up there solely through their lack of effort - it's utter hogwash, formulated from a desire to hide from the truth. White America has had a large hand in this.
I never stated that immigrants coming to America were from the upper crust. What they have is confidence and knowledge that they can succeed. It's hard to see that success is feasible, however when you have not had any evidence of it for generations. Even if the tools exist, it's hard to imagine that using them is worth it. There IS a certain degree of responsibility we need to take for this.
Additionally, you helped prove my own point. You said that the Asians and especially Chinese set things up as their own (very successful) system, with no outside interference. Those last three words are key. No outside interference. Asia has a cultural history of this! Immigrants are following patterns. When they came here, they weren't American. Many still aren't. Blacks however, are unequivocally American. And as Yoj said... comparing Asians to Blacks in this context is laughable.
Try to imagine the shoe was on the other foot - things were reversed as far as skin color involved, but all the history is still there... now tell me. Would you do better? Would you be better off by now (this is whites as a whole I'm speaking to)? If you say yes, think about this... the ONLY reason you can use to rationalize that answer would be that YOU ARE WHITE. Look at your reasons for your stance on this, mrfish. Look deep. I'm not saying that anyone is intentionally, openly, or even awarely racist. But it certainly does underly a lot of what we do and say.
Don't try and blind me with individual success stories - they constitute a very tiny piece of the pie, and there are no more success stories out of white slums.
Face it - the underlying base for all these assumptions is racism. Not that you are racist, but that we are all to some degree ingrained with it. We carry these assumptions, which color our observations and opinions and experience. To say that blacks just have less of a will to succeed is a racist statement. There is no cultural explanation or factual (hell, even an observational) basis for this. I refer you back to the statement about Colin Powell.
Finally mrfish, none of my views are based on what I've gained from pop-culture or the pc "common standpoint for idiots" or whatever you want to call it. They are my own reasoning and understanding of at least part of why things are as they are. Don't slander me by effectively calling me a mindless drone, please.
S! Yoj! Good work standing your ground there. I know it's tough with no allies to back you up.
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dudes..put yourself in the position of a colored folk...you walk in a store they watch you...you walk down the street people fear you...you walk down your own street and people want to kill you...it aint easy being a colored folk. but...why should I or anyone else be forced to pay reparations for something that happened over a hundred years ago..and I hate to say this, but these colored folks that want reparations are better off than they would be if their ancestors had not been enslaved. They could be living in some messed up country in afrika right now starving...instead they live in a rich country. But then I am not a black fella, so I probably dont know what i am talking about
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ok, well i guess since their tragic history has set their future in stone and they can't overcome their adversity due to the unbreakable grip of evil white oppression, then they are to be pitied.
pitied as poor, helpless noble victims. helplessly struggling creatures whose lives would be changed if we just give them more money and the answer key to all life's tests.
<cue neil young song here "helpless....helpless....heeee eeelpless.>
perhaps someday if you get your way, the government will devise a law that will make everything all better! after all, i look to them for solutions. better life through legislation and sensitivity training!
i have only a few more mind-numbing decades on this entropic dustball to endure these excruciating ironies anyway, so i don't care much in the end. let the excuses flow.
and p.s. - quit apologizing and dancing, if you mean to call me a racist (and you do) just say it.
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Originally posted by Yoj:
And as long as whites keep believing racism is a myth imagined by blacks it will continue.
- Yoj
[ 09-07-2001: Message edited by: Yoj ]
And as long as whites keep believing racism is a myth imagined by blacks it will continue....to be imagined by blacks to justify their imagined victimization.
Sorry, if you work hard, you get ahead. If you sit on your arse with your hand out, crying poor pitiful me, you don't...
What about ugly ppl? It's proven they make less than attractive ppl and aren't as likely to be promoted as a pretty boy/girl. Don't see anyone rushing to their legal assistance, sueing corporation to have quotas of ugly CEO's, managers and the like...
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Originally posted by mrfish:
ok, well i guess since their tragic history has set their future in stone and they can't overcome their adversity due to the unbreakable grip of evil white oppression, then they are to be pitied.
pitied as poor, helpless noble victims. helplessly struggling creatures whose lives would be changed if we just give them more money and the answer key to all life's tests.
<cue neil young song here "helpless....helpless....heeee eeelpless.>
perhaps someday if you get your way, the government will devise a law that will make everything all better! after all, i look to them for solutions. better life through legislation and sensitivity training!
i have only a few more mind-numbing decades on this entropic dustball to endure these excruciating ironies anyway, so i don't care much in the end. let the excuses flow.
and p.s. - quit apologizing and dancing, if you mean to call me a racist (and you do) just say it.
mrfish, I never said any of the above. Stop twisting my words. I never said anything about giving them money, about giving them some magic answer key to life. If you work hard, yes, you can get ahead. But that is a difficult option to pursue when you are grouped into a setting like the one many black Americans have to live with.
I do not support reparations. I do support trying to figure something out... what I don't know.
And mrfish, I am not calling anyone racist. I am calling everyone racist. I'm using a lose definition, I suppose - I do not mean hate racism - but we all have preconcieved notions and ideas (for example, the illusion of high black crime rate. People who believe this don't hate blacks, usually) that color our experiences and outlook, without us even being aware that we are letting race affect us. Racism is any kind of idea or conception that affects the way we look at people of another race. That's how I read the book. And no, I am not denying my own inherent racism.
But you will never be satisfied, eh mrfish? Continue to assume that I am calling you an evil nazi... I can't stop you, after all.
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Oh, a note: I am not talking about most blacks, i.e., the middle class. mrfish mentioned a poor neighborhood in San Francisco. I am responding to his statement, and saying that it situations like that one that perpetuate many (hell, most) of the problems with race relations in this country. You can refer back to posts above for that... I'm not writing all that again :p.
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You missed the point. You can educate, train and cloth a Black person just as you can the cracker - but he doesn't become invisible in society. And as long as whites keep believing racism is a myth imagined by blacks it will continue
No, you missed the point.
But go ahead and keep screaming poor poor pitiful me - it's all whiteys fault thay my contemporarys speak english worse than most emigrees and dress in clothing the Salvation Army wouldn't give to a bum.
You want to blend in with society then teach your kids to speak properly and dress them appropriately, maybe they won't be mistaken for a 'gangsta from the Hud'.
P.S:
Reparations are roadkill, whites already paid for slavery - in blood spilled in the civil war.
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Originally posted by jihad:
But go ahead and keep screaming poor poor pitiful me - it's all whiteys fault thay my contemporarys speak english worse than most emigrees and dress in clothing the Salvation Army wouldn't give to a bum.
You want to blend in with society then teach your kids to speak properly and dress them appropriately, maybe they won't be mistaken for a 'gangsta from the Hud'.
What truly amazes me is the influence this lifestyle has on this generation of youth - of all colors-, from music to dress to language (both verbal and body). I can only assume the attraction is in the repulsion of the entire thing by most adults... really is funny seeing a white or asian kid trying to look and sound black. The housing <sp> (pants down to the crack of their arse with the boxers hanging out, bottom of pants frayed as they drag the ground) thing really is humorous considering it was started by poor families whereas the younger siblings had to wear the older siblings outgrown clothing as they could not afford new. Won't even go into the music ... if you can call it that.
I must be getting old ... :)
Even if they (<-who) agreed to pay back the blacks for slavery, who would get it? who would pay? who would distribute it? Hogwash - the entire thing is nothing but race baiting politics by those who say they are for the little ppl while lining their pockets with their cash..
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TO be perfectly frank here people:
To those black people of what I know are from this generation: 1977 and on...
Please clean up your neighborhoods, stop giving the image (most youth) of being a gang banger, hip hop, player, underachiever, and look at me I am cool/tough guy attitude.
Learn to speak the english language as it has been taught! I actually find the idea of Ebonics idiotic. Give me a break, Those wanting to support this are those that are so UNWILLING to learn and fit into society.
I live in a Black neighborhood, and what I see is a complete LACK of respect for others, as well as their own personal Property. The war and attitudes are sprung from WITHIN the black community then carried over to the whites.
I think that the YOUTH of Black communities need a WAKE UP call. I tend to see only the negitives of the envrionment that they live in.
I am not speaking of graffiti, or things like that, infact if some Graffiti is done as "pieces" its a nice work of art.
What I am seeing for the most part is an Image that is created from the media, hip hop stars, and others that implment these fads, and Tough guy attitudes.
For all you guys who happen to be black and use the excuse that whites are handed over a silver spoon, and have x amount of already established respect just becuase of the color of my skin. I say BULL. I have grown up in a poverty stricken home, father leaving at age 7, seeing my mother being raped, and beaten. You know what!? IT sucked, BUT I LEARNED FROM IT. I vowed at that early age to never be involved with drugs, alcohol, and all the IGNORANT acts that one can do in life. Living on welfare, my mom took that Time to study HARD! to work long endless days, and Provide for not only me, but my brother on her own. You want to talk about being poor and living at the bottom of the barrel, IVE been there. My mother, thank god had morals and ambition to succeed and not sit around happy with what she had, eventually made it. Normal life. House in the suburbs.. typical american dream crap.
What about...Drugs...
DRUGS seem to Be ever popular among all races, but There has not been a day where I havent smelled or seen someomne smoking up, Laying back in thier car, "laxing". Give me a break... how about we start off by wearing our seatbelts, sitting up in the car seat to where you can have the most Situational Awareness of all that is occuring around you instead of trying to just barely look over the dash board. :rolleyes:
You know there is so much garbage and topics that can be discussed about this entire race /racism issue that its almost utterly pointless. Im pretty pissed off by all the ignorance I see from many poeple, White, black,red, and freaking any color of the spectrum.
Its a damn shame that I, having lived in many different communities, black, white, hispanic, low class, upperclass, have come to the ultimate finding that THere is NO BIAS against blacks and how they live thier lives, Just a truth that I see and the actions and society they create are built from WITHIN THEIR OWN COMMUNITY! :mad:
TO all the White people:
Live your lives, do not give handouts, Learn and excell in your lives.
TO all the Black People:
Stop crying over the 400 years of oppression and bitterness of how crafty powerfull intellgent ignorant evil warbearing people took you from your home land so many years ago! :mad:
I think the black communities can learn from the asians who had the same type of oppression issues.
Live your lives as examples to the communities, grow and learn, and do it in such a way that you are to excell in all that you do.
:mad: Freaking MOVE ON and LEARN PEOPLE! :mad:
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My goodness highflyer. Really. And just forget it, all of you. Clearly you are not understanding what I'm saying... this has been proven three times now. Whether it's because I'm incoherent or you guys are just plain dense I don't know or care. Disagreement I can live with. When you totally twist what I try to say, well... that's just irritating.
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Originally posted by mrfish:
Originally posted by Yoj:
[QB]
Sorry - I fail to see the difference. [qb]
hmmm - you don't see the difference between an unfounded bias and an opinion based on experience? most people find the contrast glaring and obvious.(one involves decisions based on fact, the other is the uncontested acceptance of an unsupported statement)
well... a bias is kind of like your kind of thoughts. you have the unfounded bias that all minorities are noble oppressed people and that the white majority is racist and oppressive. it isnt based on experience it is just what you think you need to say to look like the nice guy and get along with everyone and be in step with the herd.
[qb]My experience tells me how wrong you are, and when it comes to the experience of color in America, mine are more valid than yours.[qb]
well that kinda stands on it's own as far as nonsensical statements go - no one's views on race are more or less valid than anyone else's. i have been the target of racism from supremicists who don't like the fact that i am in a mixed marriage and it almost cost me my life on a backwoods camping trip but that is not what qualifies me to speak about the black community. i went to an all black school as a kid due to bussing regulations where i was the minority, but that isn't what qualifies me either. simple observation and logic are enough.
what are the qualities of a successful race vs. those of an unsuccessful one? you don't need to be a minority to answer that - you just need enough fact and the ability to reach a conclusion regardless of how it makes people feel about you.
you see if i didnt base my opinion on experience then i would be like you: full of canned safe opinions that you digested from from the mainstream like a good tool.
have you ever had a negative opinion about any race other than white males? why not - because there was none to be had? OR because it wasn't fashionable and someone might not like you?
your opinions on race might make sense some day when you stop trying to please everyone and accept the truth for what it is, warts and all.
you can go to the gym every day and become strong or you can try to brainwash everyone and make it so the whole world is conditioned to say you are strong whether you are or not. you can make it so that if someone says you look flabby then they are attacked and ostracized by the rest of the community. when things go uncontested people eventually accept them as the truth whether they are or not. there is only one truth in this example and in life - you are strong or you aren't.
MrFish, are you misunderstanding me on purpose? You certainly seem to be reacting to things I haven't said. I won't list every detail, there are too many. I will say this - I don't say my experiences are more valid because they are "in step" with some ideology. I spoke only to the specific point of the experience of being a minority in America, and I say they are more valid because I am considered to be one and you aren't. Therefore, I know just how extensive and pervasive the effect is.
Nowhere did I say "the white majority is racist and oppressive", though its interesting that you thought I did. There are many members of the majority who are racist and oppressive, as are members of every minority. Attitudes like that don't follow "racial boundaries".
As for racist attitudes, I say you have them because you see things (just so we're clear, I did not say everything) in terms of races - like you're discussion of "successful races". Again to be clear, I do not accuse you of having negative biases - only commenting that you see racial divisions as something real.
As for my opinions on race - your comments make it clear that you really have no clue as to what they are. Personally, I maintain that "race" per se is a myth. In reality there are only individuals who come in a kaleidoscope of forms. It is society that groups people according to a characteristic and then behaves as though that grouping is meaningful. So - no, I have no ill feelings about any race, white or otherwise, because I don't think such a thing exists. There are people I don't care much for, and they likewise come in a variety of forms.
Finally "you are strong or you aren't" is a tautology - the question is, do we advocate some kind of social Darwinism, or do we as a society feel an urge to help those who aren't. I assume you prefer a "survival of the fittest". I don't.
- Yoj
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Originally posted by mrfish:
and there's another sad example of your conditioning. the second someone doesn't agree with your pre-programmed views on race you - like every other good sheep - start in with the nazi references.
anyone with a view other than yours is a nazi huh yoj....
....right on cue
And, I'm sorry, but this is an example of YOUR conditioning. Why is it that using a German word makes you think Nazi? Herr is simply "Mister", and I used it in exactly that sense. I might as easily have called you M. Le Pesche, or Fish-san. What would you have read into that? I assure you that if I had meant Nazi I would have said Nazi. What's with the name calling anyway? There's no place for it in a civil discussion, but you seem to want to do it and to assume I will return it. Sorry, its a pointless exercise and it obscures the discussion.
- Yoj
[ 09-10-2001: Message edited by: Yoj ]
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Originally posted by capt. apathy:
I find it odd that black people who find no problem excepting that black people may be more successful at a sport (ratio of blacks/whites in the sport disproportionate to population) and call it natural ability.
Turn right around and complain that the ratio of blacks to whites in coaching doesn’t fit.
I guess it's ok for minorities to have natural ability over whites in certain areas.
but completely unthinkable for there to be more whites who are better at something.
Again reflective of so many pervasive attitudes. Minorities with "natural abilities over whites" is another of the racial myths that float around, like the idea of "natural rhythm". If minorities succeed in major sports its due to motivation, not some "natural ability" White athletes who dedicate themselves to sports excell just as well. There are more minorities represented because poor minority members see fewer paths to big time financial success.
As for coaching or managerial representation, well, either there is a lack of ability or a lack of opportunity. We have our own opinions as to where the cause lies.
- Yoj
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Sorry, don't want to get entrenched in a pointless debate, but I have to agree with Highflyer here. Reason? Because I have a black brother. He was adopted when he was 5 years old (I was 7). If you talk to him, you find out that the situation is exactly as Highflyer said. It comes from within their own communities, not from anything white people are doing.
If you talk to my brother, he will say he has not been disadvantaged in any way due to his color. He has had the same opportunities as me, his white older brother.
It's perhaps hard to swallow, but there it is.
-Greese
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Greese and Highflyer - I know what you're saying. However, the world really is more complex than that.
And Greese, if your brother has been fortunate enough to not have been disadvantaged, that's great. In fact, I don't think I have either, at least not in any serious way. However, to extrapolate from his (or my) experience and say "therefore it doesn't happen" is faulty logic.
- Yoj
PS - I'm tired of this thread. Like every other one on these boards, nobody ever convinces anyone, and it always seems to end up with people preaching pre-packaged piles of propaganda (well, "propaganda" is the wrong word - but it starts with "p"). I just figured a thread about minorities in America ought to have SOMETHING posted by someone who is a minority in America. Otherwise the whole thing would have probably been "you got that right", "damn straight", and "I couldn't have said it better".
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Originally posted by Yoj:
Finally "you are strong or you aren't" is a tautology -
- no, 'you are strong or you aren't' refers specifically to physical fitness since the example i used (had you read it...), involved an erroneous impression of someone's fitness and how they could be perceived as fit is the masses were told that enough - the 'strength' isn't a social metaphor in my example though the example itself is. how could you have missed the context? i'll use something a little easier next time.
Originally posted by Yoj:
the question is, do we advocate some kind of social Darwinism, or do we as a society feel an urge to help those who aren't. I assume you prefer a "survival of the fittest". I don't.
- Yoj
yes - that is the question and yes since it is the model that got us to our dominant position as humans and since it is the model found successfully in nature i do advocate it.
your kind wants to limit everyone to the skills of the lowest common denominator - your kind wants to hold the masses back for the sake of the few because it isn't fair that they get left behind. go tell that to the herd of wildebeast - that they should turn back for 'jimmy' because he is dawdling. i think they are more interested in survival. you are probably ruled by your emotions.
[ 09-10-2001: Message edited by: mrfish ]
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Originally posted by Yoj:
Herr is simply "Mister", and I used it in exactly that sense
- roadkill.
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Guys take a deep breath pls.
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Originally posted by mrfish:
- roadkill.
(Sigh!) You know, sometimes the only thing between the lines is blank paper. But if you want to believe I called you something, knock yourself out
- Yoj
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Originally posted by Yoj:
Again reflective of so many pervasive attitudes. Minorities with "natural abilities over whites" is another of the racial myths that float around, like the idea of "natural rhythm". If minorities succeed in major sports its due to motivation, not some "natural ability" White athletes who dedicate themselves to sports excell just as well. There are more minorities represented because poor minority members see fewer paths to big time financial success.
- Yoj
psst
ask Jimmy the Greek...
he was fired for speaking the truth though it was not politically correct.
The average white kid is much less active than the average black kid - > PS2 basketball vs basketball at the park but physically there are major differences btwn the average example of the races. For one example, just look at body development, much harder for the white guy to cut his body & gain muscle mass "naturally" than the black weight lifter. Wrestling in jr high & high school, I found the black wrestlers stronger on average than the white ones but did not have the endurance...judo the same.
back to the topic, if you support the al's and jj's, you are not supporting the advancement of the african american race in the states. period.
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Originally posted by funkedup:
Guys take a deep breath pls.
Why, they are doing just fine.
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Originally posted by Yoj:
the question is, do we advocate some kind of social Darwinism, or do we as a society feel an urge to help those who aren't.
Originally posted by mrfish:
yes - that is the question ..
I think the question is a bit different. I would re-phrase it as:
"do we advocate some kind of social Darwinism, or do we allow the use of the full power of the government to enforce certain views/behaviors in order to help those who aren't."
[ 09-10-2001: Message edited by: mietla ]
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for the record...
Rice Says U.S. Blacks Should Not Be Paid for Slavery
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/nm/20010909/ts/race_usa_rice_dc_1.html (http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/nm/20010909/ts/race_usa_rice_dc_1.html)
"WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. national security adviser Condoleezza Rice, one of the most influential blacks in the Bush administration, said Sunday she did not think African-Americans should be compensated for the past wrongs of slavery.
Rice said the United Nations conference on racism, which ended in Durban, South Africa, Saturday without U.S. participation, looked too much at the past by focusing on the issue of reparations for slavery and on finding ways to condemn Israel.
Slavery ended in the United States 138 years ago with the stroke of Abraham Lincoln's pen and civil rights leaders such as Jesse Jackson have demanded that blacks be compensated for the injustices of slavery.
Pressed on whether she agreed with Jackson, Rice told NBC's ''Meet the Press'' television program it was more important to focus on current problems than dwell on the past.
``I would hope that we would spend our time thinking about how to deal with today. I would hope we would spend our time thinking about how to educate black children, particularly black children who are caught in poverty.
``I would hope that we would spend our time, as the president has said, turning back the soft bigotry of low expectations against our children,'' she said."
Amen
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Originally posted by Yoj:
(Sigh!) You know, sometimes the only thing between the lines is blank paper. But if you want to believe I called you something, knock yourself out
- Yoj
if you take a shot at me from the grassy knoll have the sack to own it.
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Originally posted by mietla:
I think the question is a bit different. I would re-phrase it as:
"do we advocate some kind of social Darwinism, or do we allow the use of the full power of the government to enforce certain views/behaviors in order to help those who aren't."
[ 09-10-2001: Message edited by: mietla ]
fair enough. but i think the answer lies in that 'centrist zone of reality' that is so often overlooked:
let's have programs to help people but if they don't exploit them and benefit from the help then let evolution take it's course.
an aside----------------
this has nothing to do with race but is a good example the currently en vogue publicly supported policy on all problems and draws paralells to our racial policies:
in san francisco there are bums on my block that have lived on the street for decades. they aren't 'temporarily residentially challenged', they are worthless bums plain and simple.
they sit on their ass(literally - no joke) all day with a cup out in front of them and only stand when the cup is full enough to by hooch or dope.
they have food vouchers, homeless shelters, their own homeless advocate, an address and ph# in case they want to apply for a job, rehab, resume and skill building classes, work programs, basic education and free ged courses, weekly showers, free clothes...etc.
even with all of this all they give back is filth and decay. they break their bottles on the ground when they are done, they pull free newspapers out of the racks and spread them on the ground as a nest never cleaning up, they defecate, piss, puke and spit all over the sidewalk, the leave needles, urine soaked underwear and clothes and paraphenalia lying around on the ground, they steal everything that isn't nailed down , they sleep and live in their own excremate spreading disease, they aggressively panhandle especially women and anyone who looks like an easy score, and they inundate the emergency rooms with their constant overdoses and liver problems (all of which i pay for in taxes and increased medical bills since they don't) and to top it all off they get several hundred $$$$ per month in general assistance which you guessed it also comes from our taxes.
most of the policy makers are safe in the suburbs and don't have to chase these living toilets off of their stoop to get out of the door in the morning. neither do most of the noisy college freshmen defending their rights from the comfort of mommy's house.
there's yet another example of the vocal minority ensuring we all have to deal with this discord for the sake of the "rights" of a few.
our racial policy is similar: let's keep throwing money and over-regulation at the problem instead of insisting on personal responsibility. sometimes it's just YOUR problem, not society's. catch up or move over. many blacks get it and have done just that despite the odds. conversely, many ignorant whites and others also don't get the picture. we shouldn't differentiate between them, for those that get it: welcome aboard, and for those that don't: move over....
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Originally posted by mrfish:
if you take a shot at me from the grassy knoll have the sack to own it.
IF were to take a shot at you, it would be out on the street in daylight.
You're going to believe what you want despite what I say. But nobody has ever seen me make an insulting comment about any individual on any board anywhere. I wonder how many others here saw what you think you did.
- Yoj
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Originally posted by Eagler:
psst
ask Jimmy the Greek...
he was fired for speaking the truth though it was not politically correct.
The average white kid is much less active than the average black kid - > PS2 basketball vs basketball at the park but physically there are major differences btwn the average example of the races. For one example, just look at body development, much harder for the white guy to cut his body & gain muscle mass "naturally" than the black weight lifter. Wrestling in jr high & high school, I found the black wrestlers stronger on average than the white ones but did not have the endurance...judo the same.
back to the topic, if you support the al's and jj's, you are not supporting the advancement of the african american race in the states. period.
In a nutshell, Jimmy the Greek did not "speak the truth", not that I can see. The observations you make about the athleticism of the average black and white kids is no doubt true, and has nothing to do with race. And I long ago said I thought al and jj were opportunists riding hot button issues.
And (to your other post) I long ago said I thought reparations were a bad idea (at least give the native Americans all their land back first - in fact, give Europe back to the Romans. They stole it fair and square).
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This sounds kinda stupid, but hey what the heck.
For the black americans that have greviance with white americans and a remembrance of pasts evil history, and for those who wish that we have never taken those from thier rightfull home land, or demand payback in the form of money;
I say,... how about we send you back to the African homeland of which you or other protesting africans seek.
That could clear the issue up yes?
However if a black american, protests against this and continues to demand that money is the monetary form of repayment, then I say you care nothing for the shed blood of your fellow enslaved man, but rather for yourself and the fullfillment of your greedy ways.
I mean,.. to be fair, if payback is in order, let us give what they ask. The next ship to africa is in a few hours... who's ready..??
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Yeesh! This thread is getting downright distasteful. You gents can have it.
- Yoj
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Highflyer,
I can relate to the frustration at whinny people wanting the gov't to fix all their troubles for them, even at the expense of the rights of others, but the "ship 'em home" thing was a bit over the top. Exactly what 'home' would you ship them to. Some blacks are fine people and some are whinny sob's who like the roll of the victim and will find someway to stay there no matter how much you try to be fair with them (all races have both kinds of people, I’m not going to get into the argument over which races have what proportion of what kind).
But even the whinny ones are whinny Americans and we need to either wise them up or ignore them and let them whine, ‘cause whether you like it or not this is as much their home as ours.
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Originally posted by Yoj:
Yeesh! This thread is getting downright distasteful. You gents can have it.
- Yoj
lol!!!! you do tend to take the high road yoj - moreso than most.
but, buttering up your supporters:
"Capt. I admire your idealism"
"Ispar put a finger on an important point"
"And Krush (hiya bud!) also has a very good point"
"Narsus I agree completely"
"I'm glad you don't have to deal with it - you strike me as someone who would be bothered by it"
....and making veiled jabs at your detractors, not to mention actually invoking the slippery slope argument(a hideous logic fallacy) by name is no more civilized than the folk you are criticizing it is just hidden behind a screen of wordsmithing.
so don't play the poor offended gentleman with delicate sensibilities.
as much as i hate to quote the boring blowhard bob dylan: "we always did feel the same we just saw it from different point of view" he pretty much nails it there.
i don't doubt you really think you are doing the best thing(a veiled jab from me there) and for that i give credit for intention regardless, but don't patronize the guy who says "go back to africa" as some distasteful heathen.
when you do you're just downing him to elevate yourself and that's not level. if you enter a topic like this you are bound toget honest talk and it's not always going to generate good feelings.
<S> anyway - as hard as it is for me to do that, we are just a community looking for solutions and no one hates anyone i don't think, you just have a lot of passionate voices. better than apathy i guess.
;)
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<S> anyway - as hard as it is for me to do that, we are just a community looking for solutions and no one hates anyone i don't think, you just have a lot of passionate voices. better than apathy i guess.
Hey, was that some sort of jab at me?? :D
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I accept the salute and return it. I do expect "plain talk" here. I say again the supposed veiled barbs you saw are in your mind, not in my intent. The "go back to Africa" thing was just too much a stab from the past for me - I know he didn't mean it as a serious suggestion, but you have no idea how many times I have heard it and it was always meant to be demeaning. It probably wasn't here, but its awfully close to home.
If you're right that this is just a community seeking answers, its more likely to have a chance with dialog and not diatribe - and not by having a lot of people agree with one another either. This has been an interesting thread for me - I just felt like it was moving away from dialog and towards a blind shouting match. As I said in a PS, its unlikely I'm going to convince any of you, and you're sure not convincing me, so it seems a good time to let it die.
Or return it to its original intent of Sharpton-bashing, which I'd gladly join you in, except he's not worth the effort.
- Yoj
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THE END.