Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: WhiteHawk on July 22, 2006, 07:37:49 PM
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Posted a paranoia rant a cupple months ago after I became enraged that fluoride, we know it as a dental miracle, was actually quite toxic. More so than lead. I have been trying to find out who is insisting that this crap be injected into our water. Let me say that again. Somebody, namely the ADA, American dental association, has somehow gotten the govt to spring for a method to inject fluoride directly into our water which gets in our blood which flows through our brains, without doing any real long term research on it. (They couldnt use mice as sodium fluoride was used as a rat poison until recently). So we, in effect are the long term research. Here is a recent news article that was sent to me..
A coalition of health and environmental groups have filed a petition with the
EPA, indicating the agency has violated federal laws for establishing allowable
levels of fluoride pesticide residues in foods. The petition comes on the heels
of over 7,000 EPA employees calling for stronger limitations of fluoride in food
and water, as well as a recent report from the National Academy of Sciences
indicating the average American diet has unsafe levels of fluoride.
Specifically, the petitioners (including Fluoride Action Network, Beyond
Pesticides and Environmental Working Group) are asking the EPA to prohibit the
use of sulfuryl fluoride in food production. Elevated levels of fluoride are
associated with bone fractures, thyroid function losses, IQ deficits, bone
cancer, and Alzheimer's disease. The EPA has posted a public comment period on
the issue ending August 4, 2006. Learn more and take action here:
"http:http://www.organicconsumers.org/rd/fluoride.htm"
I was thankful that I could spring for the case of aquafina to bypass the guinea pig thing and see what happens to everybody else. Now, somebody is insisting that keeping fluoride out of food is somehow, not possible. Hmmm,
dont let your kids drink fluoridated water and make sure they spit out the darn toothepaste, just in case.
:noid
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Bottled water...
Spell "Evian" backwards. ;)
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Oh god...not again...:noid
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Originally posted by BlueJ1
Oh god...not again...:noid
People who only have one green tooth in thier head and pass that along to their children should not concern theirselves with this thread.:aok Move along dude.
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Nevermind.
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Are ya sure. Its saturday night. Im in the mood for a good debate. You like fluoride in your water? I think its a bit rude to polute everybodys drinking water with toxic chemicals?
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I dont know enough on the subject to debate for either side. Im content with keeping my un-educated opinion to myself. But generally, I think there are more serious things for us to worry over.
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Originally posted by WhiteHawk
Are ya sure. Its saturday night. Im in the mood for a good debate. You like fluoride in your water? I think its a bit rude to polute everybodys drinking water with toxic chemicals?
Go drill a well you paranoid phobe lol
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water is evil
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Originally posted by BlueJ1
I dont know enough on the subject to debate for either side. Im content with keeping my un-educated opinion to myself. But generally, I think there are more serious things for us to worry over.
Not so. Fluoride is toxic. Unit per unit, fluoride is more toxic than lead. They make us scrape lead off of our house. They inject fluoride into our water. Fluoride is only benificial to the teeth as a topical aplication. That means one can rinse with fluoirde and have the same effect as or more as drinking fluoride. Given that fluoride is a known poison, (this is not a paranoid rant, it is a fcat. Exterminators use sodium fluoride to kill rats and apparently it is used as a pesticide) it is highly presumptuois to assume that we will all appreciate the forced injection of fluoride into our, brains, as it turns out. Especially when we can reap the same efffects by rinsing with a fluoridated rinse, and bypass all of the "risk" in the 'benifit outweighs the risk' argument. Also, to put fluoride into the drinking water is most suspicious since 99.95% of the water in every house goes down the drain. That is a rediculous waste of taxpayer money and only a pinhead would even consider this method of fluoride delivery if dental hygiene were the true purpose. So, the question is, is this really the safest most efficient way to shore up the enamal in ones mouth? Or is there a further darker more sinister purpose lurking in the shadows? Muhahahhahahhahahha. By the way, foriegn companies are gobbling up water treatmane facilities in the US at an alarming rate. If I were a terrorist and I wanted to wipe out a bunch of cities very quietly, I may just tweak the fluoride nozzle a bit and waith a cupple of months.
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Originally posted by LePaul
Go drill a well you paranoid phobe lol
I will, and you keep on guzzlin that tap water. We both happy.
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Chemicals aren't always linear in their toxicities.
Lets take Sodium Chlorida, table salt. Very low intake of salt causes health problems and possibly death. One to five milligrams of salt is needed to thrive. Higher intakes cause health problems. Very high intake causes death.
I don't know a whole lot about Fluoride. I would say very low doses have beneficial effects on health. Higher doses could be harmful.
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Whitehawk, stick to ACM and MA strat :p
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Originally posted by WhiteHawk
I will, and you keep on guzzlin that tap water. We both happy.
My tap water doesn't have fluoride. :)
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What is UL of DV for fluoride?
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Ive been using flouride for 40+ years.....Lots of other things too.
Whoopde do!
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Originally posted by WhiteHawk
I will, and you keep on guzzlin that tap water. We both happy.
Mine goes thru a sink-mounted Brita filter
But by all means, you skip the $35 filter and continue on with your little jihad.
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Originally posted by WhiteHawk
which gets in our blood which flows through our brains, without doing any real long term research on it. ..dont let your kids drink fluoridated water and make sure they spit out the darn toothepaste, just in case.
:noid
Yadda yadda yadda
We are ALWAYS the long term research.
If we waited for such "long term research" we'd just now be getting things like penicillin and Aspirin.
And studies with rats the problem is.
As much as they have in common with us medically speaking. They are.......... Well, rats. and not human.
Also with rats besides the fact they dont live very long they often do tests using higher concentrated levels of whatever it is they are testing.
As usual even with aspirin and penicillin. Too much is not a good thing.
The only real way to study the long term effects on humans is to do.
Long term studies on humans.
that is why usually the claims of long term effects are labeled as "possible" long term effects on humans.
See they think they may know. But they dont really know for sure until they've actually done it with...humans.
Even with this evil Fluoride in the water and all the other crap we take in we are living longer, more healthy and active lives then ever before.
chit my 70 year old mother was supposed to go river rafting this past weekend and only didnt because of the weather.
Yanno its funny now that I think about it.
When my son was a baby I probably would have stood arm to arm with you in my/yours/our outrage.
I remember back then. "My kid was ONLY gonna have the pure and healthy stuff"
100% pure fruit juice, Babyfood made only from fresh vegetables, Health food cereal (some of it aint bad at all)
None of that processed stuff, or stuff with chemicals or,artificial ingredients for my kid, And now that I remember it.... The TOOTHPASTE (I swear to god).
It was a gradual thing and I didnt just change overnight. But.
I think this bout of paranoia lasted till he was about 3
15 years later its coca cola, For juice its whatever happens to be on sale and just over the coarse of the last week I picked up my daughter a big arse box of Cinnamon Toast Crunch, several large Slim Jims, and a thing of "Kids Crest with Sparkle Fun Flavor" (with Fluoride ).
Come to think of it. My son. Now 18 managed to get this far without eating entire tubes of toothpaste.
My daughters 9 and she has shown no interest or desire to eat and entire tube of toothpaste either.
I know they are smart but they must be super smart not to join the countless numbers in pandemic proportions whom are ODing on toothpaste these days.
I mean the morgue and cemeteries are just full of em!
Dunno. maybe they just havent been subjected to the kind of peer pressure that causes all these kids to join in the fun of eating toothpaste.
With all the things we are exposed to,ingest and breathe in on a daily basis.
You picked a hell of a thing to get your panties in a bunch over. LOL
Oh well I guess we must all have our causes. ;)
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First start from little stuff, like dihydrooxide, and then work up to fluoride...
http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html
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Originally posted by eureka101
fluoride safe in low concentration as in tap water.
Is it? Read the poison control warning on the back of your toothpaste tube. So somewhere between tap water and toothpaste, fluoride turns deadly. Like I said above, who is responsible for making sure the 1ppm in tap water doesnt spike to deadly levels?
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Originally posted by LePaul
Mine goes thru a sink-mounted Brita filter
But by all means, you skip the $35 filter and continue on with your little jihad.
Charcoal filters and other bed bath and beyond stuff only filter out a small fraction of fluoride, I drink bottled water, but now that the food lobbyists are massaging washington into allowing fluoride residue from pesticides into the food it makes, none of us can escape. I am all for freedom of choice, but it seems that we are going to be fluoride test subjects no matter what.
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Originally posted by Russian
What is UL of DV for fluoride?
I dont know. What is UL and what is DV?
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Whitehawk, I applaud your courage. Entering a conversation like this armed with nothing but your convictions while everyone else has a scientific education requires tremendous fortitude.
I commend you for your unwillingness to be led off course by facts.
Bravo, sir.
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To be honest, I've done some reading up on this and it does appear that the risk is reasonably high that flouride in the water does have some bad side effects. The one I am a bit concerned about is the flouride appears to increase the amount of other metals the body accumulates and those other metals are pretty bad for you (mercury, lead, etc).
I read a few articles while I was in the UK and although not known for having good teeth (heh), the Brits have looked at the exact same evidence we have and decided that with the prevalence of flouride toothpaste, rinses, and routine professional dental care, there is no compelling reason to put flouride in their water.
I'm not convinced either way, but I know that when the US started putting flouride in the water the quality and access to dental care products was not what it is today. In addition, medical issues in the US such as this tend to be carried by waves of popular emotional support rather than purely scientific basis. Case in point, is the hype regarding how great margarine is and how it would end heart disease. Now we know that pure butter is better for you than those early margarines....
I'd rather err on the side of caution and rely on flouride you spit back out. Not worried enough to become an activist, but I'd personally prefer non-flouridated water if given the option.
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Now I do have evidence that drinking more than 8 glasses of water a day causes increased risk of bladder cancer. This is due to chlorine residues in the water.
Hmmm, maybe I should look into getting a filter.
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Originally posted by eagl
I'm not convinced either way, but I know that when the US started putting flouride in the water the quality and access to dental care products was not what it is today.
Now THAT is the most compelling arguement to not have floride in the drinking water I've seen yet
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Originally posted by eureka101
Small point: chemical element Fluorine not a metal.
the chemical that is added to water is not naturally occuring fluoride or fluorine. It is a man made chemical, synthetic fluorine or sodium fluoiride. This chemical was made in mass quaintities during WWII to aid, in some way or another, in the manufacture of or enrichment of uranium for nukes.
Just to be clear here on what is being put in our water is a chemical, sodium fluoride, that is first used in the scrubbing of aluminum of its impurities, like lead and mercury. Then 1 of 2 things happens to it. It is either disposed of, at great cost, by aluminum manufacturers via toxic waste disposal companies, or sold, at great profit, to water treatment facilities and posion manufacturers. The connection between heavy metal buildup in the human body and fluoride has been made by public health groups, (conspiracy whacko, tree hugger commies) and these same groups contend that the buildup is not some phenomena but simply due to dirty fluoride. I guess the question here is 'is this the best way to get fluoride to the enamal'? If 99.95% of the water wasnt flushed down the drain a much smaller portion of fluoride would be required to do the exact same job, which would be much easier and cost effective to ensure clean heavy metal free fluoride for a rinse, greatly reducing or eliminating any hidden long term side effects that a life of fluoride ingestion may cause.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Now I do have evidence that drinking more than 8 glasses of water a day causes increased risk of bladder cancer. This is due to chlorine residues in the water.
Hmmm, maybe I should look into getting a filter.
The only way to get the chlorine and fluoride (and everything else) out of your water for sure, is to get a reverse osmosis scrubber. Ive seen them for under 500 bucks. A bit steep but a lot cheaper than bone disease or liver cancer or alzhiemers.
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seen any cloud seeders lately? :noid
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Originally posted by WhiteHawk
Is it? Read the poison control warning on the back of your toothpaste tube. So somewhere between tap water and toothpaste, fluoride turns deadly. Like I said above, who is responsible for making sure the 1ppm in tap water doesnt spike to deadly levels?
and somewhere between a sprinkle and a tablespoon, cayenne pepper makes my yummy food very hot.
and the guy responsible to keep it at safe levels is probably the same guy who keeps the chlorine at a good level.
and i bet hes a lot more worried about that than he is about the floride.
and frankly, i'd be a lot more worried about the guys who monitor the ammonia at your local ice rink than him.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Whitehawk, I applaud your courage. Entering a conversation like this armed with nothing but your convictions while everyone else has a scientific education requires tremendous fortitude.
I commend you for your unwillingness to be led off course by facts.
Bravo, sir.
wow. Could you back up that drivel with some quotes? You are the one who enetered without any education or the resemblance there of. I started the thread, you just dove in the pile in some misguided effort to be accepted by your peers, which indicates a severe lack of courage as well as education.
Go ahead take the stand and display your overwhelming intelligence. What scientific evidence are you referring to? I'll debate ya, one on one. Cmon, cmon, ;)
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That paranoid-black-helicopter icon thingy sums up the original post pretty well.
You *can* rinse your mouth with flouride for the same beneficial effect. They put it in your water because most people are too lazy to do it.
I'm sure the bottled water companies love this sort of midguided paranoia, as they continue selling a plentiful product for ripoff prices. If not for such people, they'd be out of business.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by J_A_B
That paranoid-black-helicopter icon thingy sums up the original post pretty well.
You *can* rinse your mouth with flouride for the same beneficial effect. They put it in your water because most people are too lazy to do it.
I'm sure the bottled water companies love this sort of midguided paranoia, as they continue selling a plentiful product for ripoff prices. If not for such people, they'd be out of business.
J_A_B
Ok, so the fluoride is injected into water which then winds up in our brains because there are people too lazy to take care of thier teeth? Are you OK with the force feeding of a chemical that is, unit for unit, more toxic than lead? I think that is my argument, provide free fluroidated drinks to the lazy and let me have 1 less pesticide in my brain.
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"Are you OK with the force feeding of a chemical that is, unit for unit, more toxic than lead?"
Yes, I'm perfectly okay with it.
I also lived in a house that was full of lead-based paint, I used to play with mercury, and I don't call out the hazmat squad if I spill some motor oil. I'm not dead yet.
Do you really buy into this sensational fearmongering?
If so, you should be made aware that water itself is an extremely dangerous substance. Full immersion in it causes death within minutes! Many, many people are killed annually by this scourge!
J_A_B
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Heres a chinese paper stating that fluoride lowers childrens IQ. Confounders such as econmic level, parents education, etc, were taken into consideration.
EFFECT OF FLUORIDE IN DRINKING WATER
ON CHILDREN’S INTELLIGENCE
Q Xiang,a Y Liang,a L Chen,b C Wang,b B Chen,a X Chen,b M Zhouc
Shanghai, P.R. China
SUMMARY: The Intelligence Quotient (IQ) was measured in 512 children,
aged 8–13 years, living in two villages in Sihong County, Jiangsu Province,
China, differing in the level of fluoride in their drinking water. In the highfluoride
village of Wamiao (water fluoride: 2.47±0.79 mg/L; range: 0.57–4.50
mg/L), the mean IQ of 222 children was significantly lower (92.02±13.00;
range: 54–126) than in the low-fluoride village of Xinhuai (water fluoride:
0.36±0.15 mg/L; range: 0.18–0.76 mg/L), where the mean IQ of 290 children
was higher (100.41±13.21; range: 60–128). The children’s IQs were not related
to urinary iodine, family income, or parent’s education level. Higher drinking
water fluoride levels were significantly associated with higher rates of mental
retardation (IQ <70) and borderline intelligence (IQ 70–79). The Benchmark
Concentration (BMC) for the concentration-response relationship between IQ
<80 and the drinking water fluoride level was 2.32 mg/L, and the lower-bound
confidence limit (BMCL) of the BMC was 1.85 mg/L. Taking dental fluorosis
and other sources of dietary fluoride into account, the reference value concentration
(RfC) for fluoride was calculated to be 0.925 mg/L, which is very
close to the current national Chinese standard of <1.0 mg/L. In endemic fluorosis
areas, drinking water fluoride levels greater than 1.0 mg/L may adversely
affect the development of children’s intelligence.
Keywords: Children’s intelligence; China; Fluoride in village water; Intelligence Quotient.
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*US population has access to water with an optimal fluoride concentration, which typically deliveres about 1 part per million.
*Some uninformed fluoride opponents claim that communities using fluoride water have an increased cancer rate, but studies show no connection.
Cited : Nutrition: concepts and controversies. 10 Ed, 2006, pg 294
:noid
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Originally posted by J_A_B
"Are you OK with the force feeding of a chemical that is, unit for unit, more toxic than lead?"
Yes, I'm perfectly okay with it.
I also lived in a house that was full of lead-based paint, I used to play with mercury, and I don't call out the hazmat squad if I spill some motor oil. I'm not dead yet.
Do you really buy into this sensational fearmongering?
If so, you should be made aware that water itself is an extremely dangerous substance. Full immersion in it causes death within minutes! Many, many people are killed annually by this scourge!
J_A_B
Fluoride is not a killer, it is a disease causer and like the post directly above, is rumored to cause lower IQ's. All I am saying is when one weighs the risk vs the benifit, it makes absolutely no sense to force EVERYBODY to mainline fluoride. The program is mired in contorversy but yet 'they' insist on expanding it. No vote, no publicity, just here it is like it or not, its for your own good.
And yes, until somebody can answer the questions, I will avoid fluoride as if it were posion, because it is.
Can you set me straight? Can you honestly say you cant think of a safer more efficient way to get fluoride on to the enamel?
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Originally posted by Russian
:noid
April 6, 2006 - Boys who drink fluoridated water have an increased risk of a deadly bone cancer, a new study suggests.
Elise Bassin, DDS, completed the study in 2001 for her doctoral dissertation at Harvard, where she now is clinical instructor in oral health policy and epidemiology. The study finally was published in the May issue of Cancer Causes and Control.
Bassin and colleagues' major finding: Boys who grew up in communities that added at least moderate levels of fluoride to their water got bone cancer -- osteosarcoma -- more often than boys who drank water with little or no fluoride.
The risk peaked for boys who drank more highly fluoridated water between the ages of 6 and 8 years -- a time at which children undergo a major growth spurt. By the time they were 20, these boys got bone cancer 5.46 times more often than boys with the lowest consumption. No effect was seen for girls.
The 'cut and pastes' go both ways. The representatives of mass fluoridation cant find a connection where as the public health groups can. Do you believe we should wait until the connection is so obvious that even the defenders of mass fluoridation cant deny it?
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ok ding dongs
do a search..
Flouride is banned in Hawaii..its citizesn said NO..
They have the highets rate of rotten teeth in the USA
ill pass on that
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Phrases like "force feeding" are a bit over-the-top. Are the agents in those black helicopters actually parachuting into your home in the dead of night and forcibly pouring the fluoride-poison water down your gullet? It occured to me that I drink very little of the water around here. (Landfill runoff water probably tastes better than the water my town provides.) So much for being "forced" into drinking the stuff.
"Can you set me straight?"
No, and I can't set straight the people who believe in WTC conspiracy theories or those who believe there's an alien spaceship in Area 51, either. People believe what they want to believe. If you really want to believe your government is a melevolent entity that wants to kill you for no reason, that's your right.
On this BBS you even get the fitting icon. Here's another :noid for good measure.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by J_A_B
"Are you OK with the force feeding of a chemical that is, unit for unit, more toxic than lead?"
Yes, I'm perfectly okay with it.
J_A_B
fluoride lowers IQ.
"Are you OK with the force feeding of a chemical that is, unit for unit, more toxic than lead?"
Yes, I'm perfectly okay with it.
Fluoride lowers IQ.
"Are you OK with the force feeding of a chemical that is, unit for unit, more toxic than lead?"
Yes, I'm perfectly okay with it.
fluoride lowers IQ.
hehe, 'they' are a clever bunch.
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There's one small problem with your theory. I grew up in a home with well water. I never lived in a place with city water until I was in my late teens, and as I noted, I barely drink the water anyway.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by J_A_B
There's one small problem with your theory. I grew up in a home with well water. I never lived in a place with city water until I was in my late teens, and as I noted, I barely drink the water anyway.
J_A_B
yea, i dont blame ya. Its nasty.;)
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Flouride is banned in Hawaii..its citizesn said NO..
They have the highets rate of rotten teeth in the USA
There could be alot of reasons for that.
Hawaii is a tropical state, which produces many high sugar-content food products (chocolate, sugar cane, pineapples). I would say this is the biggest contributor.
Not to mention that the drug of choice in Hawaii is crystal meth. This will cause a person's teeth to fall out regardless of fluoride.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
There could be alot of reasons for that.
Hawaii is a tropical state, which produces many high sugar-content food products (chocolate, sugar cane, pineapples). I would say this is the biggest contributor.
Not to mention that the drug of choice in Hawaii is crystal meth. This will cause a person's teeth to fall out regardless of fluoride.
Only 1 problem with that.
contrary to popular beleif.
Sugar doesnt cause Diabetes
And sugar doesnt cause Tooth decay
What sugar does is attract the type of bacteria that causes tooth decay.
Easily preventable if you brush your teeth.
Or drink floride treated water.
Good god if your worried about that. WHATEVER you do.
dont look in to the kinda of ingredients,chemicals both residual and added during the manufacturing process of the rest of the foods you eat.
You may have to stop eating food altogether.
Hmmm. then again. On second thought. DO look into it :D
To confound that (probably bogus ) study of the link between IQ and Floride.
My 9 year old daughter was given an IQ test a year ago. She scored 110
My 18 year old son was just accepted into Rutgers was given his choice of campus because he graduated well within the top 12% of all Highschool graduates.
and wouldnt surprise me if it was another one of those studies that is later disproven.
Seems to happen all the time
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Hmmm, so your saying that if you are worried about bacteria causing tooth decay, just drink some fluoridated water? The fluroide will just kill the bacteria and your teeth will be ok?
Well, the human body depends on bacteria. We have 20 types of bacteria in our mouthes alone. We have other bacteria in our gut that are essential to digestion, and yet more bacteria living on our body that simply protect us for more dangerous microorganisms. And millions of years ago, bacteria entered our (animal) cells and became a permanent part of them in the form of mitochondria. So its not a good idea to try to kill them.
If you choose to overlook the fluoride/IQ paper, thats your choice. I'm going to give it a little credence. And who knows, maybe your kids would have been geniuses if you hadn't made them drink all that fluroide.
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No what Im saying that with such a miniscule threat. Im not worried about it
I say miniscule because as I said earlier.
Even with the floride the population, even the poorer portion of the population are living longer, more healthy, and active lives then any time in history.
Technological advances abound on an almost daily basis. Pretty good feat for people with lowered IQs
This smacks of nothing more then the paranoia that seems to abound these days. Everyone worrying about this or that. that EVERYTHING is going to kill us.
I'd almost be willing to bet if it was looked into deep enough you would find some of these bottled water companies funding some of these studies.
Be it to sell more "antibacterial soap" Or water. or a host of other things. Whatever it takes to part you from your almighty dollar
Again as I said before Study ANYTHING long enough and they will find its no good for you. Even pure water.
You can give anything credence. I do.
I just dont let it grip me in a panic.
Ok so I wont eat an entire tube of toothpaste. Not that I ever wanted to before.
And neither have my kids
Its probably more dangerous to beathe in the air then to drink the water.
I know if you live in or near a city it is as your risk of cancer something like quadruples if you live in one of these areas.
Gonna start wearing a gasmask whenever you leave the house too?
Better not go to work today or read the paper because of all the residual chemicals that your body, over time is going to absorb.
All you have to do is pay attention to your eveyr day activities and you will find a whole host of things you can easily avoid that have potential terrible long term results but choose not to.
Some of them probably far far worse then a little bit of floride
And who knows. My kids may still turn out to be genuises.
Remember, Einstein flunked math in Highschool
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Air has bad things in it. Like bugs...Im scared...
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http://stat.correioweb.com.br/arquivos/divirta/emcasa/fant4.jpg