Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: xrtoronto on July 22, 2006, 11:37:32 PM
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Foreign Office minister Kim Howells has criticised Israel's bombardment of Lebanon, while on a visit to Beirut.
He said Israel had not carried out "surgical strikes" and attacking the Lebanese nation was not the answer.
Downing Street said the prime minister would stand by Mr Howell's comments, adding the British government had "always urged restraint on Israel".
Meanwhile thousands of people across the UK have joined demonstrations against Israeli attacks on Lebanon.
Speaking in Beirut, Mr Howells said: "I very much hope that the Americans understand what's happening to Lebanon.
"The destruction of the infrastructure, the death of so many children and so many people. These have not been surgical strikes.
"And it's very difficult, I think, to understand the kind of military tactics that have been used.
"You know, if they're chasing Hezbollah, then go for Hezbollah. You don't go for the entire Lebanese nation."
Mr Howells said attempts were being made to engage with parties, but a demand for an immediate ceasefire would be a "meaningless gesture".
Responding to the minister's criticisms of Israel, Tony Blair's official spokesman said the prime minister would "not be unhappy about [Mr Howell's] comments at all".
He said Mr Blair, Foreign Secretary Margaret Beckett and government ministers were united in trying to find a solution to the crisis, and reiterated that "gestures" like calling for a ceasefire would not produce peace.
But Lt Colonel Yishou Efroni, of the Israeli Army, defended its tactics saying: "We told them to leave the towns and villages. We gave them notice of when we were going to attack.
"No army in the world is doing that. I didn't see the British or Americans doing that in Iraq warning the people to leave and then bombing."
He said people had been warned through the use of loud speakers and the dropping of leaflets from the air.
And Israeli government spokesman Avi Pazner told the BBC that Israel was not interested in invading, conquering or occupying Lebanon, from where it withdrew troops in 2000.
"We only want to get rid of Hezbollah," he said.
It is thought Israel wants to set up a deep buffer zone in southern Lebanon to try to stop Hezbollah from using the area to launch rocket attacks.
Hezbollah condemnation
Earlier this week, Ms Beckett said while she had already condemned Hezbollah, her bowing to MPs' demands on criticising Israel was not the most effective policy.
Meanwhile former international development secretary Clare Short condemned the government's stance on the Middle East.
"We had a debate and most of those who spoke said that they thought Israel's response was disproportionate, that Britain should criticise, that there was a question of war crimes, that there should be a call for an immediate ceasefire," she told the BBC on Saturday.
Meanwhile in the UK, 11 rallies against Israel's actions were organised by groups such as Stop The War Coalition and the Muslim Association of Britain.
A rally to show solidarity with people in northern Israel - areas of which have been hit by Hezbollah rockets - is being held on Sunday by the Board of Deputies of British Jews.
'Final few'
Mr Howells spoke as he visited one of the last evacuation ships in Beirut, as the operation to get Britons out of the country wound down.
About 4,400 people have been taken out by the British; in total about 25,000 foreign nationals have been evacuated.
Mr Howells was there to inspect the final evacuation, and he praised everyone involved in the effort, saying it had gone smoothly.
Israel launched strikes against Lebanon following the capture of two Israeli soldiers by Hezbollah militants, who responded with rocket fire.
Shadow foreign secretary William Hague said the right of Israel to defend itself was "clear" and calls for an unconditional Israeli ceasefire were "futile" unless rocket attacks on it stopped and captured soldiers were returned.
But he said Israel's "disproportionate" response was delaying efforts to bring about a ceasefire.
Liberal Democrat foreign affairs spokesman Mike Moore MP said Mr Howells's suggestion that calling for an immediate ceasefire would be no more than a meaningless gesture was "extraordinary".
He said this had "drawn attention to the degree of isolation of Britain and United States from most of the rest of world opinion".
c&p (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/5205658.stm)
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Lets turn this around once.
Suppose a radical US group was doing terrorism across the border into Mexico.
Bombs, kidnapping, etc then started fireing rockets across the border.
After appeals, complaints, & attempts at diplomatic solutions mexico finally starts bombing US border towns in retaliation.
Wrong? Not in my opinion.
Lebanon had lots of time to rein in the Hezbollah.
As a matter of fact it still could. I'm sure as soon as Israel saw
Lebanese troops rounding up Hezbollah they'd start backing off.
Fact remains that the Hezbollah still keeps dropping rockets into Isreal.
As long as they continue to do so israel has ever right to retaliate.
I just wish Israel would take out Irans enrichment plants whiles its got its birds up. Might just solve a couple of problems at one throw.
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i would condemn it if i were i bierut also.
lmao u idiot, dont go to bierut!!!!
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remember Euros you stand up to the islamist pigs breeding like rabbits in your nations now, you won't have to 20 years from now.
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Originally posted by Pooh21
remember Euros you stand up to the islamist pigs breeding like rabbits in your nations now, you won't have to 20 years from now.
Ive been wanting tougher laws here for a long time. My opinion is that anyone (islamist or not) that breaks our laws and is convicted more than once should be shipped out asap. That goes for those that refuses to learn our laws, culture and language. And i want none of that crap were they can marry some relative or whatont back in their country and secoure them a stay here.
First offence... get a second chanse
Second offence... OUT. Does not matter how badly they are beeng treaded in their country of origin.
This would infact solve a big part of our crime problems. It would also solve the problem with the "islamic pigs" as you so delicatly put it. ;)
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Originally posted by Nilsen
This would infact solve a big part of our crime problems. It would also solve the problem with the "islamic pigs" as you so delicatly put it. ;)
Remember Nilson I am from Hamburg, and the first day I was here in 99 I told my German Wife this place must be crawling with Terrorists.and I was proven right, spain can happen anywhere, London,Edinburgh,München,OSLO, Lisbon, Paris,Berlin,Hamburg it is time that the pigs are sent back to where they came, and shown what terror means. they want us to coexist under their cold boot. If strategic bombing was good enough for the Axis in WW2 it is more then good enough for the camel-pig fornicating swine that is the modern terrorist.
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Originally posted by Pooh21
Remember Nilson I am from Hamburg, and the first day I was here in 99 I told my German Wife this place must be crawling with Terrorists.and I was proven right, spain can happen anywhere, London,Edinburgh,München,OSLO, Lisbon, Paris,Berlin,Hamburg it is time that the pigs are sent back to where they came, and shown what terror means. they want us to coexist under their cold boot. If strategic bombing was good enough for the Axis in WW2 it is more then good enough for the camel-pig fornicating swine that is the modern terrorist.
Well.. i guess we differ on that. I dont belive in killing innocents to get at the terrorists. That will only mulitipy their numbers and then you are on your way to becomming even worse than the terrorist.. its a spiral you cant get out of until you kill every...
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Well.. i guess we differ on that. I dont belive in killing innocents to get at the terrorists. That will only mulitipy their numbers and then you are on your way to becomming even worse than the terrorist.. its a spiral you cant get out of until you kill every...
and to this argument I only have to offer, the allied terror bombing campaign against Germany. My In-laws knew relatives that had to hide behind trees from ground attack Jugs. The terror bombing campaign against Hamburg und Dresden,and all of Germany, The Terror Bombing. ifficially recognized. both against more then productive members of society And yet the pigfornicating islams wants to take you over right now..
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Originally posted by Pooh21
and to this argument I only have to offer, the allied terror bombing campaign against Germany. My In-laws knew relatives that had to hide behind trees from ground attack Jugs. The terror bombing campaign against Hamburg und Dresden,and all of Germany, The Terror Bombing. ifficially recognized. both against more then productive members of society And yet the pigfornicating islams wants to take you over right now..
Well.. In the past carpet bombing was sort of legit, but we (the west) have evolved. Should we let those that has not yet evolved to our standard drag us back down to their level?
How do we prevent the leaders of our nations from turning against their own population if we let our morals gradualy decay into indifference of civilians.
It has already slowly started with them trying to take away our freedoms witin our own borders and many seem content with loosing those freedoms for abit more safety.
Survival of our civilisation ultimatly depends on our ability to stay firm on our belife in human rights even if it may cause us some short term damage under terror from those that have nothing better to do.
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Originally posted by Ghosth
Lets turn this around once.
Suppose a radical US group was doing terrorism across the border into Mexico.
Bombs, kidnapping, etc then started fireing rockets across the border.
After appeals, complaints, & attempts at diplomatic solutions mexico finally starts bombing US border towns in retaliation.
Wrong? Not in my opinion.
Lebanon had lots of time to rein in the Hezbollah.
As a matter of fact it still could. I'm sure as soon as Israel saw
Lebanese troops rounding up Hezbollah they'd start backing off.
Fact remains that the Hezbollah still keeps dropping rockets into Isreal.
As long as they continue to do so israel has ever right to retaliate.
I just wish Israel would take out Irans enrichment plants whiles its got its birds up. Might just solve a couple of problems at one throw.
The situation is slightly different to this. Israel is also bombing SIdon and Beirut which aren't border towns: so add Altanta and Washington to your list of putative Mexican targets. Also the Lebanese government has no real control over Hezbollah and the border provinces so add the same in the Mexican equation by making Washington have little influence over the border states.
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Originally posted by Pei
The situation is slightly different to this. Israel is also bombing SIdon and Beirut which aren't border towns: so add Altanta and Washington to your list of putative Mexican targets.
Sidon is only 20 - 25 km from the Isreali border.
Beirut is 50 - 60 km from the Isreali border.
At it's widest point Lebanon is only maybe 50 k wide.
Every town in Lebanon is a border town.
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Suppose a radical US group was doing terrorism across the border into Mexico.
Bombs, kidnapping, etc then started fireing rockets across the border.
After appeals, complaints, & attempts at diplomatic solutions mexico finally starts bombing US border towns in retaliation.
Wrong? Not in my opinion.
The situation is also slightly different in that Hezbollah initially mounted an attack on an Israeli military patrol. They may have fired some rockets as a diversion, but they haven't actually been carrying out rocket attacks on Israeli civilians since the Israeli pullout from Lebanon in 2000, and certainly there were no casualties from any rockets that might have been fired on the day the soldiers were kidnapped. They didn't start firing rockets at Israeli towns now until after Israel had started bombing targets across Lebanon.
According to the Israeli ministry of foreign affairs, as of 20th July Hezbollah had fired between 700 and 800 rockets into Israel. The distribution they give is:
13/07/06 - 125
14/07/06 - 103
15/07/06 - 116
16/07/06 - 47
17/07/06 - 91
18/07/06 - 136
19/07/06 - 116
Note there are no numbers for rockets fired on the 12th (the day the soldiers were kidnapped)
This was Haaretz's report on the initial attack:
The Israel Defense Forces began preparing last night for a widespread aerial assault on Lebanon, after the cabinet approved a "severe" response to Hezbollah's attack on the northern border yesterday, which ended with eight soldiers dead and two kidnapped.
The response will include a series of aerial attacks against Hezbollah, and particularly against the batteries of rockets aimed at Israel that the organization has stationed along the northern border. This operation is expected to last for several days. The IDF also recommended various operations aimed at the Lebanese government and strategic targets in Lebanon.
In a sharp departure from Israel's response to previous Hezbollah attacks, the late-night cabinet session unanimously agreed that the Lebanese government should be held responsible for yesterday's events. In the past, Israel has generally pointed its finger at Hezbollah's patrons, Syria and Iran.
"Israel holds the sovereign government of Lebanon as responsible for the action which emanated from its territory and for the safe return of the abducted soldiers," the government said in a statement issued after the meeting. "Israel must act with appropriate severity in response to this attack and it will do so. Israel will respond in a forthright and severe manner against the perpetrators responsible and will act to prevent future efforts and actions directed against Israel."
Ministers declined to give details of the measures approved last night, saying that Prime Minister Ehud Olmert had asked them to stay mum. However, the IDF's recommendations including attacks on Lebanon's power grid, which Israel struck once before, in 1999. The army also recommended imposing a partial or complete naval and aerial blockade on Lebanon - for instance, preventing civilian aircraft from landing in Beirut.
The IDF did not recommend moving ground forces into Lebanon at this time. However, Hezbollah is likely to respond to the Israeli attacks with massive rocket launches at Israel, and in that case, the IDF might move ground forces into Lebanon, both to create a temporary buffer zone in the southern part of the country and to destroy Hezbollah's network of outposts and rockets along the border. The goal of any such operation would also be to ensure that this network could not be rebuilt.
Residents of northern border communities have already been ordered into shelters, and Defense Minister Amir Peretz ordered the Home Front Command to prepare for the defense of dozens of other communities that were not vulnerable to Hezbollah fire in the past, but are now reachable with the long-range rockets Hezbollah has deployed in recent years.
"We may be facing a completely different reality, in which hundreds of thousands of Israelis will, for a short time, find themselves in danger from Hezbollah's rockets," said a senior defense official. These include residents of the center of the country.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/737827.html
Nothing in there about Hezbollah launching rockets, just Hezbollah are expected to launch rockets in response to Israeli air strikes on Lebanon.
Hezbollah are definately at fault for starting this crisis with their attack on Israeli soldiers who were patroling along the Israeli side of the internationally recognised border (ie they weren't doing anything wrong). But to use the Hezbollah rocket attacks as justification for the Israeli airstrikes is wrong.
So, the analogy to Mexico would be a US terrorist group, that the US government has been unwilling to dismantle, attacks a Mexican military patrol across the border, and kidnaps two soldiers. The next day the Mexican military launches air strikes, not just on the terrorist group but on US airports, roads, bridges etc, and the US terrorist group replies by firing rockets across the border.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Sidon is only 20 - 25 km from the Isreali border.
Beirut is 50 - 60 km from the Isreali border.
At it's widest point Lebanon is only maybe 50 k wide.
Every town in Lebanon is a border town.
I wasn't the one who introduced the concept of border towns: that was Ghosth. If the areas in question are not border areas then we must modify his Mexican analogy to Mexico bombing all over the USA.
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Originally posted by Pei
The situation is slightly different to this. Israel is also bombing SIdon and Beirut which aren't border towns: so add Altanta and Washington to your list of putative Mexican targets. Also the Lebanese government has no real control over Hezbollah and the border provinces so add the same in the Mexican equation by making Washington have little influence over the border states.
Pei you just made my point. Lebanon has little or NO control over Hezbollah.
They are operating in their country like a 2nd goverment. They need to GET control over it or kick it out.
Once they do so the US can get the Israeli's to stop bombing the crud out of the country.
Ok so mexico is also bombing atlanta & Washington.
My point is we HAD IT COMING!
We "Allowed" the terrorist group to run free.
To the point that it is an accepted political party
If you can not seperate the country from the attackers you attack the country.
So at this point Lebanon has 2 choices.
Get rid of Hezbolla, or sit back & take the pounding.
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The ghost of Neville Chamberlain speaks to us again.
Wake up and learn world!
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xtoranto.... what did the guy say about the hez-ebola firing rockets at nothing but civilian targets in Israel?
Surely, he would condem that even more strongly?
nashwan.... A trifle bit missleading aren't you? The jews are targeting hez-ebola centers and rocket launchers... the ebolas happen to be using civilians as sheilds and are firing hundreds of rockets into nothing but civilian targets.
There are many many military only jewish targets for the ebloas to shoot at.... Why not take the high ground here and just target them? You yourself said that they had that ability.
Soo.... by your logic.... The jews are targeting the ebola but hitting civilians because they are indestiguishable but.... the ebola, who have many many miltitary targets to choose from.... are targeting civilians instead?
Who are the bad guys here? the guys trying to take out rocket launchers or the guys hiding the rocket launchers in civilian buildings and then using them to target nothing but civilians when they could just as easily target military instalations?
lazs
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The jews are targeting hez-ebola centers and rocket launchers... the ebolas happen to be using civilians as sheilds and are firing hundreds of rockets into nothing but civilian targets.
There are many many military only jewish targets for the ebloas to shoot at.... Why not take the high ground here and just target them? You yourself said that they had that ability.
Soo.... by your logic.... The jews are targeting the ebola but hitting civilians because they are indestiguishable but.... the ebola, who have many many miltitary targets to choose from.... are targeting civilians instead?
Both sides are doing both. Hezbollah is firing rockets at Israeli cities, but also fighting Israeli troops. The latest death toll I saw reported by the Israeli government is 17 civilians and 20 soldiers dead, so Hezbollah is actually killing more Israeli soldiers than civilians.
The Israelis are bombing Hezbollah, but also civilian targets in Lebanon, to try to get the Lebanese population to rein in Hezbollah. In that manner, there is little to choose between the sides, both are putting pressure on the opponents civilians to try to win the war. Israel's strikes are by and large more accurate, but they are carrying out far more of them, and have killed far more Lebanese civilians.
Who are the bad guys here? the guys trying to take out rocket launchers or the guys hiding the rocket launchers in civilian buildings and then using them to target nothing but civilians when they could just as easily target military instalations?
In that example the bad guys are obvious. But it's a lot harder to call the fighter pilot blowing up civilian infrastructure to pressurise the civilian population, who kills a few civilians with his "precision" strike, a good guy.