Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Thrawn on July 27, 2006, 02:25:06 PM
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"A Canadian soldier's report from South Lebanon
Updated Wed. Jul. 26 2006 5:19 PM ET
After the kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers by Hezbollah, and the subsequent bombing campaign began against Lebanon, CTV.ca received an email from Major Paeta Hess-von Kruedener, a Canadian Forces soldier serving with the UN in South Lebanon.
"If you are interested in a Canadian perspective on the events of yesterday and what is happening here in the area I am serving in, I can provide some concise info for you about the current situation," he wrote.
With the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, Major Hess-von Kruedener was the only Canadian serving as a United Nations Military Observer in Lebanon. He was stationed at the UN base about 10 kilometres from where the Syrian, Lebanese and Israeli borders meet. The UN's mission there is to report ceasefire violations.
On July 25, that base came under fire from Israeli artillery and was struck by a precision-guided aerial bomb. Four UN observers died. On July 26, the federal government said Hess-von Kruedener was missing and presumed dead.
Here is his full email, written July 18, with background on the mission and the current situation:"
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"This is all the information of a non-tactical nature that I can provide you. I cannot give you any info on Hezbollah position, proximity or the amount of or types of sorties the IAF is currently flying. Suffice to say that the activity levels and operational tempo of both parties is currently very high and continuous, with short breaks or pauses. Please understand the nature of my job here is to be impartial and to report violations from both sides without bias. As an Unarmed Military Observer, this is my raison d'etre.
What I can tell you is this: we have on a daily basis had numerous occasions where our position has come under direct or indirect fire from both artillery and aerial bombing. The closest artillery has landed within 2 meters of our position and the closest 1000 lb aerial bomb has landed 100 meters from our patrol base. This has not been deliberate targeting, but has rather been due to tactical necessity.
I thank you for the opportunity to provide you with some information from the front lines here in south Lebanon.
Maj Hess-von Kruedener"
Thought it might be informative to get the victims perspective.
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Source?
Not trying to be a d*** but I could write an email like...
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I thought the 4 died from a precision guided weapon?
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Originally posted by xrtoronto
I thought the 4 died from a precision guided weapon?
Read it again. It appears the man who wrote the email was a casualty, and the email was written the week before.
That's really sad. It was a little late, even when the email was written, to have people there observing cease fire violations. Once the cease fire was violated, exposing those people to any sort of combat was stupid and inexcuseable. There was no need fo those people to be there. I am not minimizing the deaths, nor their desire to contribute, but the cease fire ceased to exist and they simply shouldn't have been there. A truly tragic loss that shouldn't have happened. My condolences.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Read it again. It appears the man who wrote the email was a casualty, and the email was written the week before.
I am quite aware of that. Israel knew they were there.
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Too bad about those 4 UN observers. As much as I find UNIFIL force a joke and their 28 years in south Lebanon a waste of UN funds, they did not deserve to die.
I still don't know about this specific incident, but Hizballa has made a habit of launching rockets from proximity of UN posts. They use UNIFIL and Lebanon civilians as human shields, hoping that the IDF will not attack back or if it does, to get as many civilian and UN casualties as possible.
I can tell that the rockets on Haifa during last week were fired from the proximity of Tyre where there is a UN base and a large concentration of refugees. Their hope is to create a second "Kanna village" incident that will force a cease fire on Israel. The UN has been orgenizing convoys going north along the coast, evacuating the civilians during the last days. This is the reason the IDF has only now begun to hit positions in the outskirts and the city itself.
That Kanna incident happend in operation "grapes of wrath" where the IAF and artilley were attacking Hizballa posts after it launched rockets on Israel northern settlements. In that incident they launched rockets from just outside the fence of a UN base where a few hundred refugees were gathered. Israeli artilley was hasty in returning fire without checking what else is in that location and killed many civilians. The operation was ended soon after.
I'm going back to service duty tomorrow, so I will get the airforce side of it. When I'll be back I'll tell what I can and allowed to.
Bozon
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Original Source for the Letter and Full Story (http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060718/mideast_lebanon_UN_060716/20060718/)
Thanks for posting this Thrawn.
- SEAGOON
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"Tactical necessity"? Is that a veiled way of saying that the Israelis knew there was a danger of hitting neutrals but fired anyway?
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Once the cease fire was violated, exposing those people to any sort of combat was stupid and inexcuseable. There was no need fo those people to be there.
You may be right. However, according to a spokesman for the Indian UNFIL contingent in Lebanon quoted in the Jerusalem Post yesterday, ease of movement for the observers has been very much curtailed as a result of the fighting. It is entirely possible that the outpost in question was isolated and could not be evacuated. (Source) (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153292005234&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)
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Hi Momus,
Originally posted by Momus--
"Tactical necessity"? Is that a veiled way of saying that the Israelis knew there was a danger of hitting neutrals but fired anyway?
No, Hess-von Kruedner was simply saying that the Israelis have nothing in particular against UN observers like he and his team, but that unfortunately there is a war going on all around them and that Hezbollah forces were engaging Israelis from points all around them. This meant that when the Israelis responded ordinance fell all around them.
I believe the Israelis are for the most part fighting this as a weapons-free war. If they are engaged from a position, or if rockets are fired into Israel from it, they will respond regardless of what that position is (Masjid, Apartment complex, etc.) This nullifies the primary defensive weapon the Jihadists have had against Coalition forces, the human shield. Unfortunately, it also opens the Israelis up to the full force of world approbrium.
Interestingly, had the allies been using the current Coalition rules of engagement during World War 2, shelling the beaches and inland areas in Normandy would have been essentially impossible, as would bombing the French civilian infrastructure. Apparently the Israelis prefer the prior WW2 rules.
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by Momus--
"Tactical necessity"? Is that a veiled way of saying that the Israelis knew there was a danger of hitting neutrals but fired anyway?
Yes, very likely.
What do you expect when these rockets are aimed at Israeli towns? that Israel would file a complaint with the UN?
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Originally posted by bozon
Yes, very likely.
What do you expect when these rockets are aimed at Israeli towns? that Israel would file a complaint with the UN?
oh..that explains it...I didn't know the 4 UN observers were firing rockets at Israel.
:aok
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There is another explanation that may have escaped xtoronto's observation. The UN forces have no authority to tell hezbollah forces not to fire from right next to their position. They were attempting to use the UN forces as cover for their own offensive operations. Think human shield and then decide who's fault it was for the location of the fire into Isreal, and the resultant return fire. Hezbollah has been using the urban areas and civilians as shields for their operations. Why go out and fight in the open when you can hide behind women and children then blame the enemy for the deaths of those human shields.
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Good job to Israel for having a pair to fire back no matter what. Civilians get in the way because of Hezbollah launching attacks? Why not leave or fight those savages for putting their lives in danger? It's like the one guy in the middle of the crowd for getting a bull to get up in the stands, who are you gonna blame?
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From today’s United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon press release (PDF), more reports of Hizballah using UN posts as cover for attacks:
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr011.pdf
There were three incidents of firing close to UN positions in the last 24 hours from the Israeli side. It was also reported that Hezbollah fired from the vicinity of four UN positions at Marwahin, Alma Ash Shab, Bra****, and At Tiri.
I find it tragic that some peacekeepers got killed in all of this but to blame the IDF is wrong. It is the terrorists that fight amongst colateral targets not the IDF.
(http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/06.07.25.CowardlyBlend-X.gif)
(http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/228/hezlove002gs1.jpg)
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Originally posted by RTSigma
Civilians get in the way because of Hezbollah launching attacks?
the Canadian that was killed was NOT a civilian. He was a Major in the Canadian Forces. But that doesn't matter to you...if he's not american or israeli he's just another piece of s***. Very nice sentiment indeed.
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Originally posted by xrtoronto
the Canadian that was killed was NOT a civilian. He was a Major in the Canadian Forces. But that doesn't matter to you...if he's not american or israeli he's just another piece of s***. Very nice sentiment indeed.
Actually that's not what he said at all. He did not gloat that your countryman died. On the contrary he recognised that the ones responsible for the situation were the hugahunks using the UN position as human shields. Something you and thrawn can't seem to grasp.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Actually that's not what he said at all. He did not gloat that your countryman died. On the contrary he recognised that the ones responsible for the situation were the hugahunks using the UN position as human shields. Something you and thrawn can't seem to grasp.
Actually I think thrawn gets it but torronto is probably blinded by BDS (http://drsanity.blogspot.com/2005/11/lets-discuss-bush-derangement-syndrome.html) . He doesn't seem to grasp that its the hezballah that are to blame here, not the Canadians or the IDF.
Unless of course he thinks that fighting amongst civilians and peackeepers is a "tactical nescesity" for terrorists?
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
I find it tragic that some peacekeepers got killed in all of this but to blame the IDF is wrong. It is the terrorists that fight amongst colateral targets not the IDF.
First they hammer the site dead on with an artillery strike and then they nail it dead on with a precision bomb. How much more deliberate action does it need to be?
Heres the place where Khami UN observation post was located: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&ie=UTF8&t=k&om=1&ll=33.320129,35.608594&spn=0.006374,0.009978
The grey area in the middle is a rather famous prison, where Israelis tortured people some couple of decades ago. The UN observation post is roughly 500 feet south of the prison, where the trees are.
Look at the location, theres nothing for over 500ft around the post and it's on a hilltop. You don't miss with a precision guided bomb that bad, but yet manage to nail dead on some another building. Especially not after 10 calls from the post whilst they've been under artillery fire. After the IDF realised their mistake, they decided to fire on the people coming to help!
That's as much mistake as executing a kneeling person in the neck - first person is put to kneel, then he pleads for his life, then a gun happens to be in someones hand and it accidentally discharges right in the neck of the kneeling person. Then the same gun accidentally discharges at a person running to the victim of an accidental shot.
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Fishu,
"Precision Guided Munitions" is a phrase that I wish we'd drop from the popular lexicon. It conjures up images of bombs that always fall exactly on the guys we intend them to. guided munition or "smarter than your average dumb bomb" would be a far more accurate description.
I have personally spoken with men who have called in airstrikes and given the right co-ords and then had the ordinance drop on their own position the same is true of laser and GPS targeting. Stories here of "friendly fire accidents" are legion and having your own artillery take you out goes back to the invention of gunpowder. That the Israelis goofed in the same way the US goofed in Serbia and Libya and took out Neutral targets isn't a big stretch of the imagination to me. With so much ordinance falling and Hezbollah fighting from the middle of civilian targets I'm surprised we haven't seen more accidents of this type.
- SEAGOON
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what in the hell is the UN doing there? certainly not "keeping the peace", get the blue hats out of there and leave the fighting to the fighters.
if and when NATO goes in there i'd like to see hezbola try to set up a rocket base next to them.
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Seagoon,
Don't bother trying to correct fishu. He already knows all there is about military operations and combat. Just because he may not realize trajectory and angle of fall / flight in no way diminishes his unqualified expertise in munitions.
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Originally posted by Seagoon
That the Israelis goofed in the same way the US goofed in Serbia and Libya and took out Neutral targets isn't a big stretch of the imagination to me. With so much ordinance falling and Hezbollah fighting from the middle of civilian targets I'm surprised we haven't seen more accidents of this type.
The big difference here is that they didn't just do one mistake in taking out neutral target, but they HAMMERED the neutral target and prevented the help from arriving. That's not the usual kind of "friendly fire" that you're talking about - that kind of friendly fire usually stops by the time someone calls to stop the totally tubular shelling, not only after 10 calls after which they're dead.
Originally posted by Maverick
He already knows all there is about military operations and combat. Just because he may not realize trajectory and angle of fall / flight in no way diminishes his unqualified expertise in munitions. [/B]
What a cheap response. Mock the other guy and tell he doesn't know squat. What do you know about me? Nothing. That's it, you don't know anything about me, what I know or what I do.
Since you seem so overly smart, why don't you enlight me of the reasons why the post was hammered regardless several calls and direct hits from artillery and precision bombs? How come the army which boasts it's skills and equiptment, managed to miss so many times right on top of a post that is on a hilltop with plenty of empty space around?
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Originally posted by Fishu
The big difference here is that they didn't just do one mistake in taking out neutral target, but they HAMMERED the neutral target and prevented the help from arriving. That's not the usual kind of "friendly fire" that you're talking about - that kind of friendly fire usually stops by the time someone calls to stop the totally tubular shelling, not only after 10 calls after which they're dead.
So you would ignore the UN's own finding and come up with your own conclusion that the IDF deliberatly targeted UN peacekeepers?
Have you had a CAT scan lately?
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
So you would ignore the UN's own finding and come up with your own conclusion that the IDF deliberatly targeted UN peacekeepers?
UN has found it to be deliberate action. What have I ignored?
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Hey fishu, here's a quote, which you may have already read but chose to ignore, that si from one of the UN observers THAT WAS THERE. It doesn't get any more first hand than this:
"This has not been deliberate targeting, but rather due to tactical necessity."
Can it be any plainer for you?
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Originally posted by PonyDriver
Hey fishu, here's a quote, which you may have already read but chose to ignore, that si from one of the UN observers THAT WAS THERE. It doesn't get any more first hand than this:
"This has not been deliberate targeting, but rather due to tactical necessity."
Can it be any plainer for you?
Yup, that was from a week earlier. Back then they didn't have to call 10 times - at least he didn't mention that there was a problem to get the IDF to check fire.
That guys words are an excellent reason for the IDF to "accidentally" hammer the site for good - "hey, the guy said it himself".
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Originally posted by Fishu
UN has found it to be deliberate action. What have I ignored?
That they where targeting hezbollah hiding amongst UN positions. Do you have a reference where the UN said (other than Kofi spouting off the other day) that UN forces where deliberately targeted?
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr011.pdf
There were three incidents of firing close to UN positions in the last 24 hours from the Israeli side. It was also reported that Hezbollah fired from the vicinity of four UN positions at Marwahin, Alma Ash Shab, Bra****, and At Tiri.
http://www.nysun.com/article/36860
An apparent discrepancy in the portrayal of events surrounding the deaths of four unarmed U.N. observers in Lebanon threatens to unravel Secretary-General Annan's initial accusation that Israel "deliberately" targeted the U.N. Interim Force in Lebanon.
A Canadian U.N. observer, one of four killed at a UNIFIL position near the southern Lebanese town of Khiyam on Tuesday, sent an e-mail to his former commander, a Canadian retired major-general, Lewis MacKenzie, in which he wrote that Hezbollah fighters were "all over" the U.N. position, Mr. MacKenzie said. Hezbollah troops, not the United Nations, were Israel's target, the deceased observer wrote.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
That they where targeting hezbollah hiding amongst UN positions. Do you have a reference where the UN said (other than Kofi spouting off the other day) that UN forces where deliberately targeted?
Do you think they'd hide for hours next to an UN post that is being bombarded? I think not. Even a dumber person knows to relocate and watch the show from down the road.
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That guys words are an excellent reason for the IDF to "accidentally" hammer the site for good - "hey, the guy said it himself".
Hey Hezbahfishu, the info wasn't public back then, was it?
Lol.
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Originally posted by Fishu
Do you think they'd hide for hours next to an UN post that is being bombarded? I think not. Even a dumber person knows to relocate and watch the show from down the road.
SO you are saying "I reject your reality and substitute my own"? It's in black and white....even the UN has stated that Hezbollah was firing FROM UN positions and the IDF was RETURNING fire. Of course you can just completly ignore those on the ground actually witnessing the events unfold first hand and just make up your own story as you go along. Good luck with that. :aok
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"What he was telling us was Hezbollah fighters were all over his position and the IDF were targeting them, and that's a favorite trick by people who don't have representation in the U.N. They use the U.N. as shields knowing that they cannot be punished for it."
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Its a war, and sadly, these kinds of things happen, I for one do not beleive the IDF deliberately fired on their position. Why would they? what would it possibly accomplish?
My condolences to the families involved, they were soldiers doing what they were ordered to do, irregardless of what you might think of the UN.
In the end, I blame Hezb for their deaths as they were the ones that triggered the IDF response in S. Lebanon.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
even the UN has stated that Hezbollah was firing FROM UN positions and the IDF was RETURNING fire.
* from VICINITY of UN post, not on top of it.
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Originally posted by Fishu
* from VICINITY of UN post, not on top of it.
"What he was telling us was Hezbollah fighters were all over his position and the IDF were targeting them, and that's a favorite trick by people who don't have representation in the U.N. They use the U.N. as shields knowing that they cannot be punished for it."
I'm not sure why I bother but oh well.
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Too bad about the UN forces but I'm wondering why they would continue to sit in an area for so long with a war obviously being fought all around them. They certainly did little to prevent this war and once it was joined what did they hope to achieve by sitting in the middle of it?
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That Kanna incident happend in operation "grapes of wrath" where the IAF and artilley were attacking Hizballa posts after it launched rockets on Israel northern settlements. In that incident they launched rockets from just outside the fence of a UN base where a few hundred refugees were gathered. Israeli artilley was hasty in returning fire without checking what else is in that location and killed many civilians. The operation was ended soon after
Is it really that big of a stretch to think that Hizbolltards are doing the same thing now?
Hey Hezbahfishu,
No offense Fishu, that cracked me up. :rofl
What I find incredible is the same people that get their panties in a wad over Israel actions that cause civilian casualties are never anywhere to be found on this BBS when Israel is attacked and her civilians die. Stinks of anti-semitism to me.
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Originally posted by Elfie
What I find incredible is the same people that get their panties in a wad over Israel actions that cause civilian casualties are never anywhere to be found on this BBS when Israel is attacked and her civilians die. Stinks of anti-semitism to me.
I see alot of that from some of the euros on this board. Either that or they are part of the "blaim Israel first" crowd. I don't see how one can defend hezbollah.....especially when the purposly fight amongst civilians and other non-combatants.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Actually I think thrawn gets it but torronto is probably blinded by BDS (http://drsanity.blogspot.com/2005/11/lets-discuss-bush-derangement-syndrome.html) .
right back atchya dungslinger:
(http://www.patsyterrell.com/images/blogpix/bushdisaster.jpg)
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No its just that any Euro who dares criticises Israel is branded a terrorist sympathiser.
Here we have a guy from Finland who lost a countryman to Israeli fire after they were repeatedly warned about the UN presence wondering how the hell it happened and you’re asking if he’s an anti-Semite.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
I don't see how one can defend hezbollah.....especially when the purposly fight amongst civilians and other non-combatants.
Nobody has defended them. How can you make so twisted up claims in this thread? Just because someone doesn't believe in an accident?
Originally posted by Elfie
What I find incredible is the same people that get their panties in a wad over Israel actions that cause civilian casualties are never anywhere to be found on this BBS when Israel is attacked and her civilians die. Stinks of anti-semitism to me.
I'm already beyond caring what happens there. Israelis gave palestinians a chance. What do the palestinians do? They fight against each others within palestinian land and attacks Israel on the side of their internal affairs.
What does the Libanon do to Hezbollah? nothing.. they're resourceless and Hezbollah is free to stroll about the border and send rockets to Israel. What does the Israelis do? well.. what everyone would do, they go to do what Libanese can't. It isn't new news that theres collateral damage in the bigger cities, when the Hezbollah fighters are using civilians for cover. Although Israelis have bombed wrong targets too.
Whats with the Israelis striking on an aid convoy on a road which Israelis have designated as a safe road for the aid? How can they mix up an aid convoy with Hezbollah when they're informed of it? What led to hours of attacking on UN post with different munitions and then attacks on people coming to help?
I'm willing to accept collateral damage as the weapons are not perfect and the cowardize tactics utilized by Hezbollah doesn't help either, but some collateral damage seems rather suspicious.
I wonder how big of an outcry it would cause if I'd claim the attacks on USS Liberty being an accident. Do any of you actually believe in that?
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Originally posted by Fishu
Nobody has defended them. How can you make so twisted up claims in this thread? Just because someone doesn't believe in an accident?
I'm already beyond caring what happens there. Israelis gave palestinians a chance. What do the palestinians do? They fight against each others within palestinian land and attacks Israel on the side of their internal affairs.
What does the Libanon do to Hezbollah? nothing.. they're resourceless and Hezbollah is free to stroll about the border and send rockets to Israel. What does the Israelis do? well.. what everyone would do, they go to do what Libanese can't. It isn't new news that theres collateral damage in the bigger cities, when the Hezbollah fighters are using civilians for cover. Although Israelis have bombed wrong targets too.
Whats with the Israelis striking on an aid convoy on a road which Israelis have designated as a safe road for the aid? How can they mix up an aid convoy with Hezbollah when they're informed of it? What led to hours of attacking on UN post with different munitions and then attacks on people coming to help?
I'm willing to accept collateral damage as the weapons are not perfect and the cowardize tactics utilized by Hezbollah doesn't help either, but some collateral damage seems rather suspicious.
I wonder how big of an outcry it would cause if I'd claim the attacks on USS Liberty being an accident. Do any of you actually believe in that?
The difference is the evidence sudgests otherwise and you still discount it. The IDF bombs and shells would have never been there if their target didn't fire at them from that location.
As far as the liberty goes I have no concrete suspicians either way. The US gov says it's an accident.
Either way what is lacking in all these accusation is motive killing UN peacekeepers and civlians poses a public relations and diplomatic nightmare. There's no tactical benifit to targeting them intentionally. There's no visable benifit to it.
xrtoronto you just proved my point.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
xrtoronto you just proved my point.
i proved your point by agreeing with 70% of the american population?
I'll accept that!:aok
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Originally posted by xrtoronto
i proved your point by agreeing with 70% of the american population?
I'll accept that!:aok
Just because you say it does not make it so.
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Fishu,
I started to reply to you on everything you mentioned but it seems others have already done most of it. As to the bit that the position was hammered. Yep if you take fire from a spot you are going to hammer it as that is the way war is conducted. It isn't shoot once in their general area and if it's all quiet 30 seconds later figure the job is done. Overwhelming fire is used. The intent is to destroy the target not just get it dirty.
Secondly once a mission is launched it's rather hard to stop it quickly especially based on a phone call which likely isn't going direct to the HQ that launched it. There's more than one unit out there both launching air strikes and artillery. Secondly the Isreali's don't necessarily take requests at face value outside of their chain of command. The call would have to be verified THEN a command decision to act on it. That decision would then have to make it's way down the chain to the individual units actually conducting that particular mission out of the hundreds going on.
It's already been explained about hezbollah and other outfits of their "quality" fighting from within a normally non valid target zone. Once they launch rounds from that spot it becomes a valid target for counter battery and other attacks. Of course that ordinance doesn't fall straight down and accuracy isn't the same when you are being fired at instead of a normal trial run on a range where the rounds only go one way. Oh and another thing, once ordinance starts arriving things are a little hard to see to boot which tends to degrade the accuracy of "precision guided ordinance".
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I'm already beyond caring what happens there. Israelis gave palestinians a chance. What do the palestinians do? They fight against each others within palestinian land and attacks Israel on the side of their internal affairs.
What does the Libanon do to Hezbollah? nothing.. they're resourceless and Hezbollah is free to stroll about the border and send rockets to Israel. What does the Israelis do? well.. what everyone would do, they go to do what Libanese can't. It isn't new news that theres collateral damage in the bigger cities, when the Hezbollah fighters are using civilians for cover. Although Israelis have bombed wrong targets too.
Whats with the Israelis striking on an aid convoy on a road which Israelis have designated as a safe road for the aid? How can they mix up an aid convoy with Hezbollah when they're informed of it? What led to hours of attacking on UN post with different munitions and then attacks on people coming to help?
I'm willing to accept collateral damage as the weapons are not perfect and the cowardize tactics utilized by Hezbollah doesn't help either, but some collateral damage seems rather suspicious.
Thanks for that reply Fishu.
Fishu, no matter what war we could discuss, targets by both sides have been hit by mistake, because of poor/incorrect intelligence, mis-identification etc etc. To error is to reaffirm your humanity, we all make mistakes regardless of who we are. I try not to condemn anyone for mistakes.
As far as Israel hitting that aid convoy, we dont know yet why they did it. There may very well be a valid reason for it. Or, it could have been a mistake. To jump to conclusions and condemn Israel when we dont have all the facts is a bit premature isnt it? :)
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Guns,
You're always a hoot with comments, i.e Catscan.
BTW, congrads on your new hat. If you ever get up to DFW and might have time, drop me a line before hand if you like fishing. I've got a boat and could put us on some crappie. Best eating fish around and fun to catch.
My family appreciate your service.
Take care,
rogwar
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The entire region needs to be nuked into whogivesacrapanymore. Problem solved.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
"A Canadian soldier's report from South Lebanon
Updated Wed. Jul. 26 2006 5:19 PM ET
With the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, Major Hess-von Kruedener...
good lord
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Originally posted by Fishu
The big difference here is that they didn't just do one mistake in taking out neutral target, but they HAMMERED the neutral target and prevented the help from arriving. That's not the usual kind of "friendly fire" that you're talking about - that kind of friendly fire usually stops by the time someone calls to stop the totally tubular shelling, not only after 10 calls after which they're dead.
What a cheap response. Mock the other guy and tell he doesn't know squat. What do you know about me? Nothing. That's it, you don't know anything about me, what I know or what I do.
Since you seem so overly smart, why don't you enlight me of the reasons why the post was hammered regardless several calls and direct hits from artillery and precision bombs? How come the army which boasts it's skills and equiptment, managed to miss so many times right on top of a post that is on a hilltop with plenty of empty space around?
But for some of the Christians who had made it out in this convoy, it was not just privations they wanted to talk about, but their ordeal at the hands of Hezbollah — a contrast to the *****es, who make up a vast majority of the population in southern Lebanon and broadly support the militia.
“Hezbollah came to Ain Ebel to shoot its rockets,” said Fayad Hanna Amar, a young Christian man, referring to his village. “They are shooting from between our houses.”
“Please,’’ he added, “write that in your newspaper.”
Many Christians from Ramesh and Ain Ebel considered Hezbollah’s fighting methods as much of an outrage as the Israeli strikes. Mr. Amar said Hezbollah fighters in groups of two and three had come into Ain Ebel, less than a mile from Bint Jbail, where most of the fighting has occurred. They were using it as a base to shoot rockets, he said, and the Israelis fired back.
One woman, who would not give her name because she had a government job and feared retribution, said Hezbollah fighters had killed a man who was trying to leave Bint Jbail.
“This is what’s happening, but no one wants to say it” for fear of Hezbollah, she said.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/28/world/middleeast/28refugees.html?_r=1
Hezbollah is playing the world's media like a fiddle
But instead of merely transmitting Hezbollah's unverified and unverifiable claims to the outside world, Cooper -- to his credit -- exposed the efforts by Hezbollah to manipulate CNN and other Western reporters. It's quite a contrast from the much more accommodating approach taken by his colleague, Nic Robertson, in a report that aired on a variety of CNN programs (including AC360) back on July 18, a report that Robertson himself has now conceded was put together under Hezbollah's control.
Unlike Robertson, Cooper was explicit about how Hezbollah's operatives had set all of the rules: "Young men on motor scooters followed our every movement. They only allowed us to videotape certain streets, certain buildings," he explained. He countered Hezbollah claims that Israel targets civilians by pointing out that the group based itself in civilian areas and that Israel's air force drops leaflets warning of attacks. .........
......Cooper exposed for CNN viewers that the sight of speeding ambulances, sirens blaring, was just a phony play staged by Hezbollah: "One by one, they've been told to turn on their sirens and zoom off so that all the photographers here can get shots of ambulances rushing off to treat civilians....These ambulances aren't responding to any new bombings. The sirens are strictly for effect."
CNN showed cameramen from other news organizations dutifully photographing the ambulances as they went by.
Cooper had left Lebanon and was stationed in Haifa, Israel for Monday's broadcast. His report on his trip "Inside Hezbollah" appeared at about 10:40pm EDT Monday (6:40am Tuesday, local time), the first hour of his two-hour program.
Cooper explained: "We'd come to get a look at the damage and had hoped to talk with a Hezbollah representative. Instead, we found ourselves with other foreign reporters taken on a guided tour by Hezbollah. Young men on motor scooters followed our every movement. They only allowed us to videotape certain streets, certain buildings. Once, when they thought we'd videotaped them, they asked us to erase the tape. These men are called al-Shabab, Hezbollah volunteers who are the organization's eyes and ears."
Gesturing to racks of music CDs in a building that had lost at least one of its walls, Cooper remarked, "You see their CDs on the wall still."
He continued: "Hezbollah representatives are with us now but don't want to be photographed. They'll point to something like that and they'll say, 'Well, look, this is a store.' The civilians lived in this building. This is a residential complex.
"And while that may be true, what the Israelis will say is that Hezbollah has their offices, their leadership has offices and bunkers even in residential neighborhoods. And if you're trying to knock out the Hezbollah leadership with air strikes, it's very difficult to do that without killing civilians.
"As bad as this damage is, it certainly could have been much worse in terms of civilian casualties. Before they started heavily bombing this area, Israeli warplanes did drop leaflets in this area, telling people to get out. The civilian death toll, though, has angered many Lebanese. Even those who do not support Hezbollah are outraged by the pictures they've seen on television of civilian casualties."
As the video showed a group reporters and photographers interviewing a single woman on a blanket, Cooper explained, "Civilian casualties are clearly what Hezbollah wants foreign reporters to focus on. It keeps the attention off them â€" and questions about why Hezbollah should still be allowed to have weapons when all the other militias in Lebanon have already disarmed.
"After letting us take pictures of a few damaged buildings, they take us to another location, where there are ambulances waiting.
"This is a heavily orchestrated Hezbollah media event. When we got here, all the ambulances were lined up. We were allowed a few minutes to talk to the ambulance drivers. Then one by one, they've been told to turn on their sirens and zoom off so that all the photographers here can get shots of ambulances rushing off to treat civilians. That's the story that Hezbollah wants people to know about.
"These ambulances aren't responding to any new bombings. The sirens are strictly for effect."
Cooper concluded: "Hezbollah may not be terribly subtle about spinning a story, but it is telling perhaps that they try. Even after all this bombing, Hezbollah is still organized enough to have a public relations strategy, still in control enough to try and get its message out."
http://www.mrc.org/cyberalerts/2006/cyb20060726.asp#3
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Originally posted by Maverick
Secondly once a mission is launched it's rather hard to stop it quickly especially based on a phone call which likely isn't going direct to the HQ that launched it. There's more than one unit out there both launching air strikes and artillery. Secondly the Isreali's don't necessarily take requests at face value outside of their chain of command. The call would have to be verified THEN a command decision to act on it. That decision would then have to make it's way down the chain to the individual units actually conducting that particular mission out of the hundreds going on.
And while all the verification is going on, the shells/bombs keep falling.
What's the term for that....
OBE isn't it? Overtaken By Events? Something like that?
I think the UN shoulda pulled all thier observers once it was apparent a full blown shooting war was starting up. I doubt the IDF would fire on helos sent to evac the observers, given prior notice. Hezbollah on the other hand... they'd prolly shoot the birds down and try to make it look like the IDF did it just to stir the pot.
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Originally posted by Fishu
First they hammer the site dead on with an artillery strike and then they nail it dead on with a precision bomb. How much more deliberate action does it need to be?
Heres the place where Khami UN observation post was located: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&ie=UTF8&t=k&om=1&ll=33.320129,35.608594&spn=0.006374,0.009978
The grey area in the middle is a rather famous prison, where Israelis tortured people some couple of decades ago. The UN observation post is roughly 500 feet south of the prison, where the trees are.
Look at the location, theres nothing for over 500ft around the post and it's on a hilltop. You don't miss with a precision guided bomb that bad, but yet manage to nail dead on some another building. Especially not after 10 calls from the post whilst they've been under artillery fire. After the IDF realised their mistake, they decided to fire on the people coming to help!
That's as much mistake as executing a kneeling person in the neck - first person is put to kneel, then he pleads for his life, then a gun happens to be in someones hand and it accidentally discharges right in the neck of the kneeling person. Then the same gun accidentally discharges at a person running to the victim of an accidental shot.
There was a teeny extra part on the original quote in this thread that got left off...it's significant:
In one such e-mail, obtained by The New York Sun, Hess-von Kruedener wrote about heavy IDF artillery and aerial bombardment "within 2 meters of our position." The Israeli shooting, he added, "has not been deliberate targeting, but has rather been due to tactical necessity."
The correspondence between the trooper and former commander amounted to "veiled speech in the military," Mr. MacKenzie, who once commanded the U.N. troops in Bosnia, told the CBC. "What he was telling us was Hezbollah fighters were all over his position and the IDF were targeting them, and that's a favorite trick by people who don't have representation in the U.N. They use the U.N. as shields knowing that they cannot be punished for it."
http://yaakov.newsvine.com/_news/2006/07/27/302491-annans-claims-on-casualties-may-unravel
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Surely, nobody is surprised... after all; blowing the hell outta 'friendlies' as a 'tactical necessity' is nothing new for Israel.
(http://www.ussliberty.com/g/lg/lgwalsh06.jpg)
http://www.ussliberty.com/