Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: cav58d on July 27, 2006, 05:07:08 PM
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I get out of my car when i Get home, and the left side of my hood is raised about an inch and a half...I open the hood to see the frame of my strut housing his lifted and punctured my hood from within, and is jacked in that position, keeping my hood raised...I bring my car (which is a 12 month old 2005 Chrysler Sebring) to two auto body shops (both very good family friends)...We jack the car up on a lift and start to inspect.....Zero tire, wheel well or rim damage...alignement is fine...Only problem found is that welding holding the strut, or a strut panel or something like that has snapped....both mechanics told me in all there years of doing this line of work they have never seen a welding snap apart like that without other damage...they said sure, if the tire popped, rim cracked ect...then the weld break would be understandable.....but for the weld to break without any other damage to the more sensitive parts of the car, it makes them believe if was welded incorectly, or it is a design/factory fault, and I should not pay anything to have this fixed....... So I call up my dealership and they say they wont cover it, its under pot hole....I've called 8 times since, and the head service ****er is blowing me off and not picking up....Do I have a legitimate claim for faulty part? Whats my next step???? Do I call Chrysler HQ?
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Try another dealer or call Cryslers customer service.
You have a legit claim. Find a service manager who isnt a ********.
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Call their VP of Consumer affairs for one... Complain, but don't swear. Be polite, and take down names, dates, and times you called.
You can also call various consumer protection agencies... I could actually find out the precise names for you from CT tomorrow at work, but right now I forget.
My father's one of those jerks who spends two or three hours on the phone when someone gives him an attitude at a Subway :rolleyes: so I'm sure he could help you out with some of this...
Actually, hell. I'll PM you his number and such. Give him a call tomorrow, tell him you're one of JP's friends and that I asked him to help you out with this. If there's one man in CT who can help you get to the bottom (er, top, really) of this, it's him :rolleyes:
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Easy enough.
Give em a call.
Contact Us by Telephone
1-800-992-1997
M-F 8:00AM-5:00PM
All Time Zones
Contact Us by Mail:
DaimlerChrysler Customer Assistance Center
P.O. Box 21-8004
Auburn Hills, MI 48321-8004
Dont screw with a service dept. manager at the dealership.
In this market, no American car manufacturer can afford to ignore customer service. They cant go giving away the farm either, but to ignore a real complaint about product quality means a lost customer and that means lost revenue that they just cant afford. Even worse, it means a bad reputation. Chrysler has had its share of product quality horror stories in the last few years, they really need some positives.
Call these people up, tell them you have had the car examined at different shops and gotten the same opinion from ALL the mechanics. Tell them your problems with the local dealership. Tell them a local news agency has contacted you about appearing on one of those "complain about the jerks ripping me off" shows, and that you are seriously considering taking them up on it, but you want to give Chrysler one more chance. Make them understand that you are only asking for someone to give your car a fair examination, and if they think its not a flaw then you want a reasonable explanation. Make them understand that if they refuse to accommodate your very reasonable requests, that they could be in for some very nasty public exposure, at least at the local level.
Thats how I'd handle it anyway. Beyond that if they still balk I'd get sworn statements from the mechanics that looked at your car, take pictures of it, and then rape the dealer in court.
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they cant eve weld right??? the car is only a year old, wats the mileage, 15k? at the most. i would make a big stink, call the news and report it, thats dangerous, imagine they didnt weld the frame together right, u be driveing on the highway andd the car would come apart around u.
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Legit claim, imagine it it had gone all the way through and your front end smacked the ground at 40MPH, fun ride. Good luck bro.
P.S. Never buy Chrysler, if one "American" manufacturer seriously doesn't know what quality control means, it's them.
Hell, i'll give you a story. Few weeks ago we get a Durango in with computer problems, tech switches out the computer for a new ones, thing works...til he goes to move it, truck dies. Eventually he starts thinking it's the wiring harness in the car. Well he calls up the Chrysler dealership and the head tech says "Sometimes I have to replace 6 or 7 computer before I find one that works":eek: Good stuff at Chrysler, tell you what.
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It should absolutely be covered by warranty. It would have been covered in all dealerships I've worked without a question asked.
The attitude at your dealership is unbelievable. It's not even coming from their pocket, so why the attitude?
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Because they don't get paid the same for warranty as they do for regular repair work.
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Originally posted by rpm
Because they don't get paid the same for warranty as they do for regular repair work.
Yes, but it's not like they are doing it at a loss. At least at the Volvo dealership I worked at did as much warranty work as was possible, it was still money to us. Personally I rarely argued with a customer, unless it was a clear case of foreign damage or warranty expiration. I simply contacted the manufacturer and asked if they will cover and that was it. Maybe it's different over there.
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Most of the foriegn car manufacturers, I have had dealings with, are very good at standing behind thier product. Case in point.
My Wife's Volvo S60 had to go into the shop for repair work. The A/C compressor had exploded and took out the water pump, timing cover housing, alternator, and power steering pump.
The dealership was just amazed. The manager sent my Wife to the waiting room and, on his own, made some calls. We ended up only paying for the A/C compressor replacement. Two days after we get thew car back, we get a letter from Volvo offering a 25% rebate for the repair work.
Now here is the most amazing part. The car is 5 years old with 117,000 miles on it. Well out of warranty. Will we buy another Volvo? You bet.
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Cav,
If it comes down to it that they flat out refuse to do the work, have a local mechanic document his findings and then get it backed up by another mechanic as a 2nd opinion. If they still refuse then have the car fixed and pay for it out of pocket. Then go down to your local court house and file suit against chrysler in small claims court. You don't need a lawyer, most of the time you only need about $50 to file the claim. Wait a couple of months and then go to court. IF a chrysler lawyer shows up he's more then likely ready to give you a check. If not explain it to the judge. For $50 and a days time you might get your fair shake at it.
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An impartial expert will be able to tell if the weld broke due to unusual stress or id it was faulty from the git go. The dealer should have inspected it just to make sure. Im not an expert, but I belive robots weld the frames. I have run across bad welding rods that makes a real crappy weld and if there is no human looking at it, it can go unnoticed.
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A WELD BREAKING ON A 05 CAR? cmon now, go to court.
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
Most of the foriegn car manufacturers, I have had dealings with, are very good at standing behind thier product. Case in point.
My Wife's Volvo S60 had to go into the shop for repair work. The A/C compressor had exploded and took out the water pump, timing cover housing, alternator, and power steering pump.
The dealership was just amazed. The manager sent my Wife to the waiting room and, on his own, made some calls. We ended up only paying for the A/C compressor replacement. Two days after we get thew car back, we get a letter from Volvo offering a 25% rebate for the repair work.
Now here is the most amazing part. The car is 5 years old with 117,000 miles on it. Well out of warranty. Will we buy another Volvo? You bet.
Damm, Im gonna buy one too:)
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
Most of the foriegn car manufacturers, I have had dealings with, are very good at standing behind thier product. Case in point.
My Wife's Volvo S60 had to go into the shop for repair work. The A/C compressor had exploded and took out the water pump, timing cover housing, alternator, and power steering pump.
The dealership was just amazed. The manager sent my Wife to the waiting room and, on his own, made some calls. We ended up only paying for the A/C compressor replacement. Two days after we get thew car back, we get a letter from Volvo offering a 25% rebate for the repair work.
Now here is the most amazing part. The car is 5 years old with 117,000 miles on it. Well out of warranty. Will we buy another Volvo? You bet.
Thats because for the most part, they understand a basic fact of business that seems to have eluded American car companies for at least 30 years now. One person buying one car from you might not make much difference in your bottom line. But how many cars will that one person buy in a lifetime? How many cars might his family buy? His children, his grandchildren, his siblings and cousins and so on. Now figure in friends brought in just by word of mouth. The Big 3 had it so good for so long that they lost sight of how important one person can be. For all the others, looking in from the outside at the huge American automobile market, they understand very well how important each and every one of their customers is.
The company I used to work for won GM "supplier of the year" awards twice while I worked for them. We dealt mainly with GM and Chrysler, sometimes with Ford. For awhile we had a contract with Toyota as well. The difference between Toyota and any American car company is like night and day. GM cares about what the people in between the factory and the dealership do that might mess up their cars during transit. Well and good, but they really dont do much to protect the cars during shipment. Plastic covers over the seats is about the extent of it. Maybe a foam rubber piece stuck on the door to prevent banging it against the side of a railcar or something. Whether on a truck or inside a railcar, there is very little room to maneuver, and damage happens. GM expects it and writes it off as the fault of the carrier. Chrysler is the same way. Toyota? Plastic covers over the wheels, to prevent scratching. Spray on coating to protect the paint that has to be washed off before the cars can be sent to dealerships. A REAL pain, but it worked. Plastic over the seats, and sticky plastic on the carpeting too, to keep anything from marking up the car. A few German built cars I've seen were the same way.
Point here is, the foreign car companies recognize that percieved quality is important to customers. "Initial quality" and "service quality", or what happens if you need repairs. This is what they care called in ratings reviews, but both affect overall percieved quality of the product. Both are something foriegn car manufacturers score highly in on a consistent basis, and domestic car companies fall flat on their faces. Did you think it was a good quality product when you drove it off the lot, and has that opinion been altered by your service since? A poor mechanic or a dealership that doesnt give a rat's arse can make a simple problem into a PR nightmare by not fixing it right the first time.
I'm not sure the Big 3 will ever get it.
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SOA,
I agree with what you say big time. The local Dodge dealer pissed off my family in 68 over a new car we bought from them. It was the last chrysler product any of us bought until I got a Dakota in 95. That was also the only chrysler product any of us have bought to date.
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My Dad's Construction Company used to own Ford pickups for the crews. In 81, he was treated like crap by a Ford Dealer, and Ford themselves over a lemon. He averaged buying 3-4 a year. Never bought another Ford product and got rid of every one of the crappy Fords, and switched to Chevy's in a two year period. Been that way now for 23 years.
3.5 X 25K = $87.5 k
87.5K x 23 years = $2012500.00 over that time frame that Ford lost out on.
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Cav, did you check for any recalls? I did a quick google and found this, may or may not be related. If you check Edmonds you can find the recall notices and TSB's for your car.
http://www.edmunds.com/maintenance/MaintenanceServlet?mktcat=recall-auto&kw=auto+recall&mktid=ov9934776
Nature of Defect:
2. STEERING:LINKAGES:KNUCKLE:SPINDLE:ARM Recall Number: 04V579000
Dates Manufactured: SEP 2004 to NOV 2004
Number of Vehicles Affected: 26354
Date Owners Notified On: N/A
Vehicle: 2005 Chrysler Sebring
Defect Description:
ON CERTAIN SEDANS AND CONVERTIBLE MODEL VEHICLES, THE RIGHT STEERING KNUCKLE MAY HAVE BEEN DAMAGED DURING THE COMPONENT MANUFACTURING PROCESS.
Consequence of Defect:
THIS COULD CAUSE THE STEERING KNUCKLE TO CRACK AND SEPARATE FROM THE UPPER CONTROL ARM, WHICH COULD RESULT IN A CRASH.
Corrective Action:
DEALERS WILL INSPECT AND REPLACE THE RIGHT STEERING KNUCKLE. THE RECALL BEGAN ON DECEMBER 27, 2004. OWNERS SHOULD CONTACT DAIMLERCHRYSLER AT 1-800-853-1403.
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Heh, I just realized when re-reading my post, I mentioned my old company winning that award from GM and then said nothing else. What I was going to say was that the award was pretty much useless. All car manufacturers have similar programs to award their "suppliers", but the ones from the foreign car companies are much harder to get. The award from GM doesnt mean anything because they really dont care about whats going on during transit. It either makes it, makes it through damaged, or doesnt make it at all. In the first case, they sell it. In the last 2, they write it off and blame the contractor. The awards are all about appearance, but there's no drive behind them to make them mean something. If Toyota gives you an award for handling their product, its because you have a great record and you pass all their tests and inspections. They appreciate it when you make that much effort and they let you know it. There are big rewards for companies that meet those goals.
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Originally posted by rpm
Because they don't get paid the same for warranty as they do for regular repair work.
Actually, that's not true. Manufacturers pay dealers the same hourly rate that those dealers charge cash customers - at least, I can say that IHC, Ford, and GM do (having been a service manager at dealers for those 3).
culero
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the big three build it like crap and the dealers jerk u for the car, sticker on the gt500 is about 45, i see them priced at 70 grand. im just glad they dont build are weapons.
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A[/SIZE]void
B[/SIZE]uying
C[/SIZE]hryslers
1995 Neon, 2001 PT Cruiser.
Both have been the worst expericences I've had as a car owner.
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the big three build it like crap and the dealers jerk u for the car, sticker on the gt500 is about 45, i see them priced at 70 grand. im just glad they dont build are weapons.
Yea, attention to detail and quality don't mean anything anymore. Lots of autoworkers don't even know how to spell or use basic grammar, so how could they possibly have the abilities required to build a car correctly? :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by culero
Actually, that's not true. Manufacturers pay dealers the same hourly rate that those dealers charge cash customers - at least, I can say that IHC, Ford, and GM do (having been a service manager at dealers for those 3).
culero
I have a close friend that is a mechanic for a large GM dealer and he tells me different. Maybe I have bad intel.
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It's true RPM, I know a guy that got fired from a Mercedes dealership when he and 2 other tech's were caught in an audit and were found to have charged MB $500,000 in fraudulent warranty claims over a 3 year period. Dealerships don't want to deal with warranty claims due to the fact that it takes do damn long to get their money from the auto makers.
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Originally posted by rpm
I have a close friend that is a mechanic for a large GM dealer and he tells me different. Maybe I have bad intel.
Depends on the make. Sometimes they also refuse to pay by their own standard repair times.
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Originally posted by DiabloTX
Dealerships don't want to deal with warranty claims due to the fact that it takes do damn long to get their money from the auto makers.
That would also depend on the make. For Volvo it was 14 days here.
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Originally posted by eagl
Yea, attention to detail and quality don't mean anything anymore. Lots of autoworkers don't even know how to spell or use basic grammar, so how could they possibly have the abilities required to build a car correctly? :rolleyes:
It s the engineers and management cost cutting. The autoworkers, dumb as they may be, can only put the parts where they were designed to go.
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Originally posted by rpm
I have a close friend that is a mechanic for a large GM dealer and he tells me different. Maybe I have bad intel.
Technicians always whine this tune. You have to understand both sides of the issue to understand.
Manufacturers invest a ton of money in time studies to determine just how long it takes to do repairs, then publish a time standard manual (commonly called "flat rate book"). They pay the dealer at the dealer's cash customer hourly rate. If you're in Podunk Mississippi and charge the locals $50 an hour, Ford etc pays you $50 by their time standard. If you're in NYC and charge $125, that's what you get from GM etc.
Now, the usual way dealers compensate technicians is a straight percentage of the labor they generate. Hence the rub here. There are a couple of factors involved.
1) Knowing how to use the pencil. There are usually combinations of individual labor operations in the time standard that may be applied to any particular job. It may only pay 3 tenths of an hour to replace a part, and the people writing the warranty ticket up need to know where to look up an applicable time for diagnosis, associated "add-on" times (for associated adjustments and post-repair testing regimes etc) that may be applied because of the vehicle having optional equipment, etc.
There's also a certain amount of fudging that may be done with creative use of unrelated labor-only additions to the ticket to help a technician recoup time over and above what any particular repair pays if that job's "factory time" is unfairly tight. I know because I've written thousands of hours of warranty tickets and had all of them approved by the factory reps (yeap, never lost a tenth of an hour, its all in knowing how) and I always kept my wrenches happy with their compensation. It can be done.
2) Aftermarket time standards and just plain outrageous clock-estimation. Since nobody looks out for the consumer like the vehicle manufacturers look out for themselves, there is a tendency in the repair industry, both at dealers and indies, to abuse customers in terms of what hours are written on tickets versus what hours are actually expended by the technicians to do the jobs.
Companies like Chilton, Motor, Mitchell, etc publish their own time standards, which they sell at a very lucrative profit to the industry. You buy one of these and use it to show customers why you're charging 3.7 hours to replace that Chevy water pump ("See, says so right here, that's how long it takes!"). No matter that anybody with air tools and experience that hustles can do it in 2.5 hours flat. Presto, what is sold to the customer as "$50 an hour" is really $75 in actuality. Guess what time standard book some dealers whip out when its a cash customer? :)
Also, with cash customers, its easy for a shop to just say "It took this long" and charge that, even if the "that long" was because the technician screwed around, took coffee breaks every ten minutes, blew the diagnosis and wasted time doing un-needed stuff, etc. Its harder to get away with that on warranty jobs because ~gasp~ the manufacturers spend millions on warranty and ain't stupid, so they actually AUDIT! Imagine that! ;)
The fact is, when pay is variable and not clock-related, as in this case (technicians get a straight percentage of what's charged) every paycheck becomes a negotiation. Technicians are people, so they naturally prefer charging as much as possible on every ticket. Since dealers have to watch what they do closer on warranty tickets in order to not raise red flags and create intensive audits/chargebacks, warranty tickets tend to be very exact representations of actual time. Cash customers don't know whats up like manufacturers, so the tendency is for the commission folks to pencil whip them. But the fact is that there's no reason to get paid less hours for warranty work than it actually takes.
My productive technicians at the dealers where I was service manager made more than I did in a year, in some cases time and a half. The lazy coffee-room slackers got barely better than minimum wage. There was a big crowd in between those extremes. The only difference between any of 'em was how productive they were.
And, no I wasn't a white collar manager type - I paid my dues working the line (on everything, cars, HD trucks, industrial equipment) and am an ASE certified Master technician. In addition to being a manager, I pulled wrenches myself for many years. I apply the same standard to my own performance as I do other techs and I always was a top performer vs the flat rate. Its all about professionalism and hustle.
culero
PS - there are differences between manufacturers in terms of turn-around on warranty claims approval, but it makes no difference. The technician gets paid immediately, and its all "on paper" for the dealer. The dealer owes for what cars and repair parts they've ordered, credit is applied to the dealer's account for the warranty repairs, there's delays both ways. That old saw is BS too. Warranty work is a lucrative element in a dealer's cashflow, all the dealer has to do is administrate it properly. Any dealer that doesn't solicit warranty work is mismanaged, period.
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Very good post!
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Wow..all this Chrysler bashing..and I have never had a problem with any of mine.
1990 Dodge Ramcharger...over 145,000 miles no problems until I sank it in a hole out playin in the mud and flooded the engine with water. Oopsie. But not the trucks fault. :p
2005 Dodge Ram Quad Cab...35,000 miles no problems so far..at all..and I use my truck for a TRUCK..not a friggin grocery getter.
1999 Jeep Wrangler...168,000 miles..only problem ever was a leaking seal at the transfer case..took it back and repaired by dealer free...Jeep had over 100,000 miles on it...and the problem was a burr on the transfer case to transmission mount that finally wore through the gasket. Burr removed...over 60,000 miles no problems.
My father had a 2004 Dodge Neon that had over 50,000 miles on it no problem when he sold it.
Not all Chryslers are bad. :)
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This thread is so big I just glanced threw it. I own a body shop. The housing that holds the strut is called a strut tower. In all my years I have never ever under any circumstances seen a strut tower break loose from the weld. No mater what kind of impact it takes being a pot hole or a severe impact from another vehicle. The only exception to this would be a broad side from a big rig at 80 MPH or such. This obviously isn't the case here. My first thought is that it is the strut bearing that broke and not the strut tower or any welded piece of the strut tower. However, it does seem u have friends that noticed a broken welded piece of the strut tower and have identified it as such. If this is the case it wasn't welded properly, simple as that. Or possibly, (and i doubt it is), a engineering design flaw or a weak batch of steel used to make the tower.. I would imagine if any of these are the case several other or many many similar cars are out there suffering the same damage. Check recalls. If there isn't one yet I would imagine there soon will be. Its a serious safety risk not to mention the amount of damage that your hood has suffered already. Try the things mentioned in this forum. Its going to be a lot of work using the phone. No way can they legitimately tell u that a pot hole should break lose a strut tower. Don't forget u have a left and ride side strut tower so the side that is still good may be on its way out as well. Also something I was wondering, has this cars suspension been chopped to lower the car to the ground as many kids do now a days? This would definitely stress body parts. Just though I should ask if that was the case. Hope this helps u some. Let us know how u make out, good luck:aok
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..all good info .. I'd like to add there are also 'Lemon Laws' ..most have a time period of 1 year after purchase that apply to cars.. most have a protocol . . most involve the dealer trying to fix it but being unable to.. and you get the full purchase price of the car back with interest paid.
At the point you are at ..if you get *any* hassle at all from HQ ..get a lemon law lawyer ..they take their fee from the settlement, you dont pay a dime ..and they usually know someone by first name basis at HQ they can talk to direct ..they hammer the manufacturer HARD for screw ups, and it sounds like your dealership is one.
-GE