Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Ripsnort on July 27, 2006, 10:32:25 PM
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http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=37278180-a261-421d-84a9-7f94d5fc6d50
Shocking, eh? er, not.
'We've got Hezbollah fighters running around in our positions, taking our positions here and then using us for shields and then engaging the (Israeli Defence Forces)," he said.
Maniac? What do you think? More lies I suppose...?
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I was wondering when this would come to light. News said that even the guys in the post that died were reporting much the same.
You have an adversary that will use children, families, homes, hospitals, ambulances and the like for sheilds. They have no bounds, no limits, nothing is sacred. However the first chance an innocent is wounded or killed, the Hezbollah tards get front page news coverage on all the outrageous Israeli acts
Meanwhile Israel is getting pounded with these rockets...and its a deafening silence on news coverage on the damage, injuries or deaths as a result of those.
Frankly, I wish Israel would request a Lend-Lease program on a few B52s.
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Terrorists using innocent people as human shields? Say it ain't so Joe!
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Ah yes, Hezbollah, the same people who brought you:
* Thirty US and other Western hostages kidnapped in Lebanon between 1982–1991. Some were killed, some died in captivity, and some were eventually released. The list includes U.S. journalist Terry Anderson (6 Years), British journalist John McCarthy (5 Years), and the Archbishop of Canterbury's special envoy Terry Waite (4 Years).
* Oct. 23, 1983 - 241 US Marines Killed in an attack on their barracks in Beirut 58 French paratroopers killed by a second bomb minutes later
* September 20, 1984 - Hezbollah bombs the US embassy in Beirut killing 22.
* June 14, 1985 - TWA Flight 847 hijacked by Hezbollah and held for over two weeks. One US Navy Diver murdered.
* June 25, 1996: Hezbollah bombs the Khobar towers complex in Saudi Arabia killing 19 American Servicemen
Until September 11, 2001 Hezbollah, not Al Qaeda had the dubious distinction of being the terrorist organization that had killed the most Americans.
Now they wouldn't use the UN as a shield and then expect gullible Americans to forget their past history and support them would they? Nahhhhhhh! Good thing the New York Times exists to hold their feet to the fire.
- SEAGOON
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The UN folks not being able to instantly fire on those cowards is inexcusable. If they can't defend themselves from being used in this manner they should be immediately pulled from the area. They have truly been placed there as a toothless tiger.
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Now they wouldn't use the UN as a shield and then expect gullible Americans to forget their past history and support them would they? Nahhhhhhh! Good thing the New York Times exists to hold their feet to the fire. - SEAGOON
4- Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users and HTC. Flaming or abusing users is not tolerated.
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Nash I wound say it is far more accurate to say that your perception of Jesus Christ doesn't fit the perception you have of Seagoon.
Perceptions are not necessarily reality.
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Fair enough.
Strikes me wrong is all.
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I dont think Maniac ever claimed they didnt. I dont think you will find anyone in that thread that said that they did not use em as shields.
Lets take another scenario... A US footpatrol is taken hostage by fighters in Iraq... Would artillery be called on their position? I think not.
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I feel a definate kinship with the Israelis battling the arabs. I hope they kill as many of those hezbollah soldiers as is possible. This is where the next world war will start. Europe, following its anti semite tradition will abandon the Israelis and fall behind the arabs, simply to try and placate them. It will be the ultimate responsibility of the United States to save Israel by destroying Syria and Iran.
It will happen.
God willing :rolleyes:
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These cartoonists always seem to be spot on...
(http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/06.07.23.SignsoftheTime.gif)
(http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/06.07.25.CowardlyBlend-X.gif)
(http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/06.07.27.GlobalJihad-X.gif)
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I agree that they shouldn't have been there in the first place. This however gives no excuse to drop a few 1000 pounders to the post. Artillery shelling in the vicinity was a different thing, and apparently justified. A stupid stunt to pull by IDF.
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Originally posted by Nash
4- Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users and HTC. Flaming or abusing users is not tolerated.
Ahem... ad hominem. ;)
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Yeah... true. :)
But it begs an answer.
I'm not asking liberals how they became so "brain damaged."
I'm not asking the less articulate amongst us how they became "idiots."
I'm asking about a bonafied man of God's advocation of war. No matter what war.
I went overboard, yeah... but hopefully he'll see the sincerity of my question behind the noise.
But yer right. :)
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from Yeager -
Europe, following its anti semite tradition ......
From Elfie in another thread - ...Stinks of anti-semitism to me.
with reply from Guns I see alot of that from some of the euros on this board. .....
From Lazs in another thread Also... why do you think so many your-0-peeans are so anti-semetic?
Again from Lazs oh wait... "to many... the BBC and yourop eans are anti semites.. the young are taught at an early age to hate the nasty oppresive jew"
Ah yes I remember being a boy at school our "Anti-semetic" class and how grandma used to sit me on her knee and tell me how bad all Jewish people are ....
:rolleyes:
Look at the figures (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1107AP_Mideast_Fighting_Casualty_Glance.html)
The press focus is on Lebanon because that is where people are dying.
But any Euro commenting on objective reporting and information gathered from sources other than the US media machine is "anti-semetic". Yes Israel has a right to fight here but their hands are not clean. Maybe - just maybe it might pay to keep an open mind to consider that it's not just terrorists who do bad things. Saying Israel has done a wrong thing is not the same as saying Hezbollah are doing a right thing but that seems difficult for a few here to grasp.
I personally find this Euro=anti-semetic thing offensive.
Israel is trying to subdue the local population - to teach them a lesson; to show them what they get for living in an area which is pro-Hezbollah - their house bombed / family killed; to turn them against Hezbollah. Has it worked in the past ? No. Will it work now? No. Yet objective reporting on this lunacy is anti-semetic ???
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=37278180-a261-421d-84a9-7f94d5fc6d50
Shocking, eh? er, not.
Maniac? What do you think? More lies I suppose...?
More lies? what are you on about?
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Originally posted by Sparks
Israel is trying to subdue the local population - to teach them a lesson; to show them what they get for living in an area which is pro-Hezbollah - their house bombed / family killed; to turn them against Hezbollah. Has it worked in the past ? No. Will it work now? No. Yet objective reporting on this lunacy is anti-semetic ???
OMG!
What are you? Like.... Hitler?
Are you implying that Israel is going overboard?
I know.... It's odd. Nothing wrong with pointing it out.
Right or wrong, I always had the Israelis pegged as being smart. Not this time. No longer.
The same kinda hubristic attitude as the 'mericans is causing them to lose this war in much the same way as the Americans are losing over in Iraq.
I'm at a loss figuring out what is wrong with these kinds of people.
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Just ignore it Sparks...
If you dont agree with them on a topic such as toilet paper or sunglasses you are anti-american. If they cant manage to upset you with that they try the good old namcalling thing plus an insult or two.
Think of it as envy or sarcasm and your day will be a brighter one.
Always look on the bright side of life.. dum dum..dum dum dum dum du dum :)
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Seagoon, the problem is that even a majority of the large Lebanese Christian population see Hezbollah as a legitimate organisation, so to ascribe their actions to Islamic anti-semitism is clearly inaccurate. People in the region have long memories; Israel's role in the bloody civil war and the subsequent invasion and large scale bloodshed and destruction on an equally dubious pretext in 1982 is still very fresh in local memories.
Events today are not taking place in a vaccuum; this is why your comparision of Israeli necessities with those of the WW2 allies is flawed. Israel is not fighting a war of liberation or even of national survival even though this is what they want you to think. Israel is the regional superpower that has accepted a low-level conflict with groups like Hezbollah and Hamas as the price it pays for it's still ongoing colonisation of the West Bank and the negative effect on regional sensibilities that the settlement program has. Have you forgotten already what prompted the Hezbollah raid that sparked this latest episode? It was a reaction to the post-pullout blockage of Gaza imposed by the IDF and in particular to the bombing of power and water infrastructure targets following the kidnapping of the Israeli corporal last month; bombing that amounted to little more than the collective and disproportionate punishment of the civilian population of Gaza.
This is why I've got such as issue with Israel's current campaign and not just with the UN casualties. Israel has consistently done nothing to ease the tensions that lead to outbreaks such as this latest, then dons the mantle of the aggreived party at the first opportunity when in reality it carries an equal share of the guilt. Couple this with has a history of disregard for the safety of neutrals and civlians who happen to be in the IDF's line of fire and that's a good reason to be critical of Israeli actions.
Also, from the article Ripsnort quoted:
"At the time, there had been no Hezbollah activity reported in the area," he said. "So it was quite clear they were not going after other targets; that, for whatever reason, our position was being fired upon"
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Nash,
I went back through a bunch of your recent posts, and aside from an apparent tendency towards stalking, you really don't seem to be adding much. I know you'll just respond with an insult because that's all you ever do when responding to anyone actually participating in a discussion, but welcome to the killfile (ignore list for you young-uns). You are one of a very few people who ever make me wonder why I signed up to risk my life to protect people like you. I used to think maybe you're just wrong and arrogant, but now I'm pretty sure you're one of the people I'm supposed to guard everyone else against. That makes you a member of a rather small group of people.
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Eagl, please add me to your list as well b/c Nash is bang on about SG.
I've never studied the bible much, but I remember JC teaching 'turn the other cheek' and 'love thy enemy'...
Those pages were obviously missing from SG's copy of the bible.
Oh, and nice job about the 'risk my life to protect people' thing... Like beating up the countryside in a F15 and wearing cool sunglasses was a chore, get a grip.
I'd accept it from you if you were a grunt in Afghanistan like a former squadmate of mine... a canuck, mind you. He's already been shot at a lot and he has lost more than a couple of buddies. He's seen the real deal, I don't think that you have...yet (I'm not saying that you've avoided dangerous assignments, don't put those words into my mouth).
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Maybe Goon sees the bigger picture here. How if there wheren't countries to stand up to Islamofascism than instead of reading the new testiment he'd be bowing to mecha 5 times a day.
Either way if he wasn't a pastor you would just write him off as a bu****e and ignore him outright so what's the difference.
Anti-semitism aside it seems the Euros still want to blaim Israel first. If Nash had his way they'd be fighting a limited war with one hand tied behind their backs. If the UN ran things they'd be subject to daily rocket attacks and then have to provide free medical care to the terrorists that launched them without ever returning fire.
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Your total cluelessness is showing once more Gunslinger. The two nations in the middle-east most opposed to "Islamofacism" as you term it are the previous Ba'athist regime in Iraq and the present regime in Syria. The two Islamic nations most aligned with "Islamofacism" are staunch US allies Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. Does that glimpse of reality make your brain hurt?
Here's another one for you; Hezbollah and the Sunni extremists who operate under the Al Qaeda franchise are enemies, not allies. Maybe it's a little less black and white than you think? Yes? No?
Or does screeching about "euros" and labelling as an anti-semite everyone who doesn't share your myopic world view constitute your limit?
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I think that calling your-0-peeans anti semites is not a huge stretch.... the ones responding here about this situation are pretty much confirming it...
nash talks of "going overboard" like war and terrorism was a game where each side was only allowed to kill as many of the enemy as they themselves took casualties... Irael is a soverign nation that is being terrorized by a diverse group of fantics who's stated purpose is to wipe them off the face of the earth and who's weapons are terror against civilians..
Who's methods include beheading people on live tv and suicide bombing and using comercial airliners and their passengers for bombs.
They are barbaric scum and the jews are fighting the good fight... the jews have no choice but to hit them 10 times harder than they can hit the jews... the jews have no choice but to ignore the human shields so long as there is rockets coming from that area and hitting their civilians.
Any country that would harbor such cowardly barbarians as the hez-ebola does not remain a civilian population... they are simply the citizens of hez-ebola.
Some have mentioned occupied france in WWII and said it is the same thing.... It is nothing like the same. the french resisted... the french were rounded up and murdered by the nazis for their resistance... the lebonese dance in the street when islamofacists murder people.
lazs
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Originally posted by Momus--
Your total cluelessness is showing once more Gunslinger. The two nations in the middle-east most opposed to "Islamofacism" as you term it are the previous Ba'athist regime in Iraq and the present regime in Syria. The two Islamic nations most aligned with "Islamofacism" are staunch US allies Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. Does that glimpse of reality make your brain hurt?
Here's another one for you; Hezbollah and the Sunni extremists who operate under the Al Qaeda franchise are enemies, not allies. Maybe it's a little less black and white than you think? Yes? No?
Or does screeching about "euros" and labelling as an anti-semite everyone who doesn't share your myopic world view constitute your limit?
Just because you say it does not make it so. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Sunni and Shia sects would long put aside their differences to fight Isralis. Iraq is a parallel but all together different discussion and you didn't mention anything at all about Iran either.
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Originally posted by deSelys
Eagl, please add me to your list as well b/c Nash is bang on about SG.
I've never studied the bible much, but I remember JC teaching 'turn the other cheek' and 'love thy enemy'...
Those pages were obviously missing from SG's copy of the bible.
Oh, and nice job about the 'risk my life to protect people' thing... Like beating up the countryside in a F15 and wearing cool sunglasses was a chore, get a grip.
I'd accept it from you if you were a grunt in Afghanistan like a former squadmate of mine... a canuck, mind you. He's already been shot at a lot and he has lost more than a couple of buddies. He's seen the real deal, I don't think that you have...yet (I'm not saying that you've avoided dangerous assignments, don't put those words into my mouth).
Jesus Christ never said anything about laying down and letting your enemy kill you.
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Originally posted by deSelys
I've never studied the bible much.
Fixed. This killed your "disagreement".
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Does that somehow lessen the impact? Besides, not all friendly fires are the same. At some point it sounds like this one crossed over from accident, to negligence or incompetance. And perhaps even it was deliberate. Sliding scale of culpability.
I would like this incident to be investigated by a neutral third party.
One would have to wonder if Hezbollah would be the ones who crossed over from negligence and perhaps they deliberately used the UN guards as human shields? Maybe there should be an investigation by a neutral thrid party........................ ........
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Originally posted by Maniac
More lies? what are you on about?
\golf clap
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Capt VH and Masherbum:
from biblegateway.com:
Matthew 5
The Beatitudes
An Eye for an Eye
38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
Love for Enemies
43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
and
Luke 6:29
If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic.
So who didn't pay attention in church, hmmm?
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Oh snap, didn't see Thrawn's thread about this subject down the list earlier. Lock or delete this one Skuzzy.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Just because you say it does not make it so.
Ok, which bit did I get wrong and why? Can you answer that without resorting to the usual ridiculous anti-semite ad hominems?
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
That's an overly simplistic platitude to apply to the situation, but hey, let's give it a go. Do you realise that the disporportionate bombing of Lebanon is likely to push the Lebanese christians, once aligned with Israel, into closer relations with Hezbollah? Do you think that this is the consequence Tel Aviv intends?
Sunni and Shia sects would long put aside their differences to fight Isralis.
Is that right? So why are Sunni and Shia busy blowing each others brains out in Iraq at this very moment? Why haven't they settled their differences so they can focus on Israel? Might it be because Israel isn't the priority for every radical that you seem to think it is?
Iraq is a parallel but all together different discussion
It's relevant because it shoots holes in your assertion that conflicts in the region are being driven by what you term "islamofacism" against which in your version of reality Israel and the US are the only countries opposed.
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I think that calling your-0-peeans anti semites is not a huge stretch....
"big·ot ( P ) Pronunciation Key (bgt)
n.
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ."
the jews have no choice but to hit them 10 times harder than they can hit the jews... the jews have no choice but to ignore the human shields so long as there is rockets coming from that area and hitting their civilians.
Any country that would harbor such cowardly barbarians as the hez-ebola does not remain a civilian population... they are simply the citizens of hez-ebola.
No choice ?? So there were rockets coming from the airport at Beirut, all the power stations, water plants, bridges ?? Your reasoning is bizarre.
The second of your wise words above is the key. The country and hence the general population were all collectively harbouring Hezbollah in their houses - every one - and hence they all deserve to die. Your incomprehension of the real situation there is stunning.
I'll paint a different picture... somewhere near the Mexican border the Minutemen deicide the government is not doing enough and start firing rockets in the general direction of Mexico. Mexico boosted with the support of Russian hardware retaliate by bombing the suburbs of San Diego killing hundreds of Americans, destroying the powerplants, water supply and closing the airport. They destroy I5 and attack people fleeing to LA because they were all complicit in harbouring right wing nutjobs ??
You know just because people live were there are terrorists doesn't make them terrorists - just people trying to make a living. However bomb their houses, kill their children, destroy their towns and maybe just maybe you can turn them into terrorists.............
And Momos as usual is spot on. You point the finger at Euros being Anti-semetic and sell arms as fast as possible to Saudia Arabia - try getting off an airplane in Jeddah and showing a passport with a stamp from Israel in it LOL !! It would be kind of interesting to see what happenned if the House of Saud was overthrown by an Islamic revolution and all those shiny toys fell into the hands of another Iran style leader.
Oh and btw - it was the anti-semetic British who created the state of Israel.....
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Originally posted by Momus--
Ok, which bit did I get wrong and why? Can you answer that without resorting to the usual ridiculous anti-semite ad hominems?
That's an overly simplistic platitude to apply to the situation, but hey, let's give it a go. Do you realise that the disporportionate bombing of Lebanon is likely to push the Lebanese christians, once aligned with Israel, into closer relations with Hezbollah? Do you think that this is the consequence Tel Aviv intends?
Is that right? So why are Sunni and Shia busy blowing each others brains out in Iraq at this very moment? Why haven't they settled their differences so they can focus on Israel? Might it be because Israel isn't the priority for every radical that you seem to think it is?
It's relevant because it shoots holes in your assertion that conflicts in the region are being driven by what you term "islamofacism" against which in your version of reality Israel and the US are the only countries opposed.
SO how would you fight a "Proportionate war" if such a thing exists? One bomb for every rocket? That seems rather absurd considering. The thing that seems to piss off europeans and some lefties alike is that Israel is not afraid to step on some toes. While the EU is trying at great lengths to appease Iran and other arabs Israel is continuing to fight them in their own back yard. But it seems most europeans never met an enemy of Israel that they didn't like.
As far as alienating Christian lebbonese? Who cares, most of them recognized hezbollah as a legitimate entity before all of this even started.
You can try and drag this into an argument about Iraq but it's not. If you don't understand Islamofascism or refuse to see the writing on the walls you are beyond hope. Look at how those in the Religion of peace treat others in Indonesia, somalia, the middle east, and eventually coming to a neighborhood near you in Europe, canada, and yes the US of A. No matter the sect or the name of the group they all seem to have the same basic mission statement. Who do you think AQ, hezbulla, shia, sunni, PLO, Hammas, islamic jihad, muslim brotherhood, ect would rather fight.....each other, or Israel? Even the great secularist Sadam hated Israel. He launched scud missles at it during desert strorm and later payed off suicide bomber's families. Yes its a simplistic view to a complicated problem that all seems to have the same common denominator.
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Originally posted by Sparks
"big·ot ( P ) Pronunciation Key (bgt)
n.
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ."
No choice ?? So there were rockets coming from the airport at Beirut, all the power stations, water plants, bridges ??
Yes they have no choice. Where do you think rockets, ammo, and fuel AKA logistics come from? After they leave Iran and Syria they have to go somwhere and that usually means over an airport, bridge, or road.
Of course these are standard tactics when fighting a standard army but those they are fighting choose to do so amongst a civlian population sometimes even forceing civilians to stay.
I'll paint a different picture... somewhere near the Mexican border the Minutemen deicide the government is not doing enough and start firing rockets in the general direction of Mexico. Mexico boosted with the support of Russian hardware retaliate by bombing the suburbs of San Diego killing hundreds of Americans, destroying the powerplants, water supply and closing the airport. They destroy I5 and attack people fleeing to LA because they were all complicit in harbouring right wing nutjobs
Unlike most islamic countrys we do not sympothize with those that murder civilians for reasons of terrorizing them. It would never get to the point of havin mexican govt involvment because the US govt would stomp the problem out before it got there.
But again it seems you are victomizing hezbollah here instead of blaiming them.
I'll go even a step further in your scenerio. Minutemen lauch border raids into Mexico and even snipe civilian border crosses from our side of the border. The FBI and local law inforcement then launch a real investigation into the murders and states post guardsmen to patrol the border to ensure it's not happening further. Those that are responsible are then arrested and tried in court for murder/terror/whatever and then sentenced appropriatly.
Show me where that happens in palestine or lebenon.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
\golf clap
Thats the best you can do after naming me in your first post? really im curious, what are you on about? please elaborate.
And its /golfclap not \golfclap
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
One would have to wonder if Hezbollah would be the ones who crossed over from negligence and perhaps they deliberately used the UN guards as human shields? Maybe there should be an investigation by a neutral thrid party........................ ........
Absolutely. It's saddly ironic that the reason the observers where there was to facilitate such an investigation by being neutral observers of such crimes. Now they are being pulled out, and prosecuting for war crimes I imagine will be that much more difficult.
"UN removes unarmed observers from border
Last Updated Fri, 28 Jul 2006 11:07:53 EDT
CBC News
The United Nations will remove 50 unarmed observers from posts along the border between Israel and Lebanon to ensure their safety, a UN official said Friday."
http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/07/28/removal-posts.html
The situation becomes confusing for me when the observers become the victims in the sense of whether or not to pull them out. Does their presence deter more than it promotes an environment where war crimes are commited more often? It's so self-referential.
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Hello Nash,
Originally posted by Nash
4- Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users and HTC. Flaming or abusing users is not tolerated.
Yup, you're right about one thing, I am making under 500k. About a tenth of that estimate actually. ;) Sorry, I'll get serious...
It seems like we've been over exactly this ground a number of times, for instance, here I devoted an entire thread to answering you on this point (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=171575), I've quoted extensively from the bible and from the confessional standards I subscribed to when I was ordained showing that Christians have always believed that while personal revenge etc. is forbidden, the magistrate has been granted the authority to wage war on certain just and necessary occasions - "For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil." (Romans 13:3-4)
In any event Nash, I fully realize the importance of Pastors not preaching a political message, but simply declaring as faithful ambassadors what the bible teaches in the pulpit. I know that on the Day of the Lord my ministry and preaching will be judged by a much higher authority than any here on earth ("My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment" - James 3:1), and consequently I try to scrupulously avoid preaching politics or simply spouting off my opinions in the pulpit. You can judge that for yourself, all of my sermons (along with PDF text for DeSelys) are available online here (http://providencepca.sermonaudio.com).
Next month we will even be hosting a bible conference (http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_news.asp?sourceID=providencepca&date=7%2F12%2F2006) on what the bible teaches regarding war and capital punishment featuring a seminary professor and a nationally recognized pastor and author with an extensive background in this subject - so I hope you don't believe I am simply baptizing a conservative political message, far from it.
As for being a "political activist" - it's hard to see how that could be the case, I don't vote, don't take part in local or national politics, am not a registered member of any party, and the only place I even discuss politics is here and at the dinner table. As a matter of fact, I worked overtime in a committee this June to ensure that our denomination did not adopt a a political overture that was sent to us but remained committed to dealing exclusively with matters ecclesiastical. In fact, you'll find I have made the "political preachers" in our denomination very angry on a number of occasions. While I love my adopted country, I don't carry an "America uber alles" brief and for instance recently lamented our increasing idolatry and made the following comments in a sermon ("The Writing on the Wall") (http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?sermonID=72106161817) :
"...if there is real hope for this nation, it cannot come from legislation or even vigorous military action. It will have to come through people turning heart by heart to God, to revival and reformation in the church, we should be praying for that."
I sense though Nash, that the only clergy you are familiar with are deeply political and committed to either the promotion of right wing ideology (Falwell, Robertson) or left-wing agendas (The Episcopal Church, etc.) rather than the men who are committed to proclaiming the Gospel of Jesus Christ and letting the Bible speak. If you look back several hundred years before Bush, or modern Israel, to the preachers of the Reformation in whose train I humbly try to follow, you'll find that they didn't proclaim anything too terribly different from what I am saying. Let me give you just two examples who I trust won't be labeled "Pro-Bush Americans":
"Secondly, the killing of an enemy in a lawful war also is not included in the homicide which is forbidden. A war is lawful when enemies conspire to attack a nation that has not offended them, but which dwells quietly and peacefully—these enemies robbing them of their goods and making the people their bond servants. If the government of such a country then arms itself against such enemies, resists violence with violence, punishes them, and renders them incapable of returning, this is a righteous undertaking whereby the wicked are punished, and good persons are protected both personally as well as relative to their religion and belongings. The legality of such wars is not only abundantly evident in 1) the Old Testament, where God commanded them and prescribed the time and manner of attack, as well as promising to deliver up the enemy, but 2) also in the New Testament. John the Baptist baptized soldiers and rather than commanding to forsake warfare, he exhorted them to be satisfied with their wages and not to be a burden to anyone (Luke 3:14). The centurion is praised for his faith and was not dismissed from his service (Matthew 8:10, 13). Cornelius the centurion, a godly man, was visited by Peter, and while Peter was preaching he received the gift of the Holy Spirit. There is no word of rebuke, however, nor of being dismissed from his service (Acts 10:2, 33–34). Paul declares that the government is of divine origin and that it bears the sword to take vengeance upon the wicked and to protect the good (Rom. 13:1–3)."
[Pastor Wilhelmus A'Brakel (1635-1711), Minister of the gospel in the Dutch Reformed Church in Rotterdam]
"But kings and people must sometimes take up arms to execute such public vengeance. On this basis we may judge wars lawful which are so undertaken. For if power has been given them to preserve the tranquility of their dominion, to restrain the seditious stirrings of restless men, to help those forcibly oppressed, to punish evil deeds — can they use it more opportunely than to check the fury of one who disturbs both the repose of private individuals and the common tranquillity of all, who raises seditious tumults, and by whom violent oppressions and vile misdeeds are perpetrated? If they ought to be the guardians and defenders of the laws, they should also overthrow the efforts of all whose offenses corrupt the discipline of the laws. Indeed, if they rightly punish those robbers whose harmful acts have affected only a few, will they allow a whole country to be afflicted and devastated by robberies with impunity? For it makes no difference whether it be a king or the lowest of the common folk who invades a foreign country in which he has no right, and harries it as an enemy. All such must, equally, be considered as robbers and punished accordingly. Therefore, both natural equity and the nature of the office dictate that princes must be armed not only to restrain the misdeeds of private individuals by judicial punishment, but also to defend by war the dominions entrusted to their safekeeping, if at any time they are under enemy attack. And the Holy Spirit declares such wars to be lawful by many testimonies of Scripture."
[John Calvin (1509-1564), Reformer and Pastor in Geneva, The Institutes of Christian Religion]
Sorry for writing so much, I had no intention of doing so until pressed on the matter.
- SEAGOON
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Sparks maybe you should quote my entire paragraph instead of just the last few words.
What I find incredible is the same people that get their panties in a wad over Israel actions that cause civilian casualties are never anywhere to be found on this BBS when Israel is attacked and her civilians die. Stinks of anti-semitism to me.
I stand by that comment. If you notice, I dont mention Euro's or any other group of people by region. I was only talking about those on this BBS that immediately condemn Israel without having all the facts. Those same people never condemn the terrorists for their actions, deliberate actions against civilian targets. The people I am talking about know who they are. If the shoe fits, wear it. If it doesnt, then dont worry about it. :)
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I have a go at this one first ...
Unlike most islamic countrys we do not sympothize with those that murder civilians for reasons of terrorizing them. It would never get to the point of havin mexican govt involvment because the US govt would stomp the problem out before it got there.
Wrong. The US government did nothing to stop the activities of Noraid supllying funds and munitions to the IRA - people who most certainly did murder civilians.
But again it seems you are victomizing hezbollah here instead of blaiming them.
Show me where in any of my text anywhere do I say Hezbollah are victims or where I show support Hezbollah. THIS is the problem - you cannot separate a Lebanese citizen and Hezbollah terrorist - to you anyone in arab dress who lives in the Lebanon is a terrorist or terrorist sympathiser. You cannot accept the thought that there is a civilian population who has no link to Hezbollah who are dying here.
Just because there are two sides in a war doesn't make one right and one wrong. Hezbollah have a hard line Islamic vision which wants the destruction of Israel and it's supporters and will use any tactics - that is wrong. Israel is prepared to kill innocent civilians and destroy the lives of thousands of families in it's war against Hezbollah - that is wrong.
In terms of the Lebanese government getting control of southern Lebanon - just how were they going to mange that ? A new government recently elected after the general populace forced the withdrawal of the Syrian army; no resource to speak of; no outside supporters. And there's another point - the Lebanese people forced the removal of the Syrian occupying army and the return to democracy and the reward they get is the bombing of their homes.
Separate the people from the terrorists damnit !
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I was going to respond to that topic Seagoon after I finished the post above but you beat me to it sir. :)
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Originally posted by Maniac
Thats the best you can do after naming me in your first post? really im curious, what are you on about? please elaborate.
And its /golfclap not \golfclap
Its very apparent that you're not quite as outraged that Hezbollah (Which means Army of God) used the UN observers a human shields. I thought the contrast was quite startling myself, but you may be a bleeding heart Muslim living in the land of free for all I know...
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Just because there are two sides in a war doesn't make one right and one wrong. Hezbollah have a hard line Islamic vision which wants the destruction of Israel and it's supporters and will use any tactics - that is wrong. Israel is prepared to kill innocent civilians and destroy the lives of thousands of families in it's war against Hezbollah - that is wrong.
Israel is prepared to do what ever it takes to secure their borders and the lives of her people. IF Hezbollah, Hamas and others would let Israel live in peace, Israel would have no reason to attack others would they?
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Its very apparent that you're not quite as outraged that Hezbollah (Which means Army of God) used the UN observers a human shields. I thought the contrast was quite startling myself, but you may be a bleeding heart Muslim living in the land of free for all I know...
Can you please explain your first post? the more lies part....
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So Elfie - the fact that Israel's people are under attack gives them the right to do "whatever it takes" - your statement seems to imply this.
So if Mosad discovered a Hezbollah cell in NY and decided that the best way to deal with it was to blow the building up, and if it killed 10 or 15 innocent New Yorkers with it that would be ok ??
What the IDF is doing is lowering themselves to the level of the terrorist and in doing so alienating a population that was perhaps the most cosmopolitan and democratic in the Middle East.
Hezbollah, Hamas, Al Queda and all those organisations who aspire to promote militant Islam are the biggest threat to all our freedom in the West but destroying southern Lebanon and killing innocent Lebanese is not weakening them, it is making them stronger. Do you honestly believe that the Lebanese who watch all the foreign nationals run off to Cyprus; whose houses get bombed with out so much as a harsh word; are going to blame Hezbollah ? We need these people on our side - to inform, to rat out, to win the underground war against the terrorist. We turn the loacl population against us and the war becomes un-winable - WTG IDF.
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Originally posted by Sparks
I have a go at this one first ... Wrong. The US government did nothing to stop the activities of Noraid supllying funds and munitions to the IRA - people who most certainly did murder civilians.
Show me where in any of my text anywhere do I say Hezbollah are victims or where I show support Hezbollah. THIS is the problem - you cannot separate a Lebanese citizen and Hezbollah terrorist - to you anyone in arab dress who lives in the Lebanon is a terrorist or terrorist sympathiser. You cannot accept the thought that there is a civilian population who has no link to Hezbollah who are dying here.
Just because there are two sides in a war doesn't make one right and one wrong. Hezbollah have a hard line Islamic vision which wants the destruction of Israel and it's supporters and will use any tactics - that is wrong. Israel is prepared to kill innocent civilians and destroy the lives of thousands of families in it's war against Hezbollah - that is wrong.
In terms of the Lebanese government getting control of southern Lebanon - just how were they going to mange that ? A new government recently elected after the general populace forced the withdrawal of the Syrian army; no resource to speak of; no outside supporters. And there's another point - the Lebanese people forced the removal of the Syrian occupying army and the return to democracy and the reward they get is the bombing of their homes.
Separate the people from the terrorists damnit !
I did not realize the IRA was operating in Mexico. I'll have to look it up but I'm pretty sure they stuck to norther Ireland. Otherwise it does not have any bearing on the scenerio as it was presented.
As far as I'm concerned about lebanese familys caught in the crossfire. Those that want to get out of the way I hope they do. THre is a war going on down there caused by those that hide amongst them. If I saw a terrorst launch a rocket from my kids school yard using them as a shield in an on going conflict it would them that i'd blame for the death and destruction that would follow. Hezballah are despicable cowards that fight amongst a civilan populace. There's even reports of Hezbollah not letting civilians leave to get out of harms way. The Hexbollah are the ones responsible for this conflict at this time. They are the ones that have the blood of the innocent on their hands. THEY sparked this latest flare up and its THEM that continues to put people in harms way.
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I find it hard to believe that people don't understand that this is exactly what Hezbollah wants...lots of civilians dead, homes destroyed, civil infrastructure destroyed. It's a recruiting drive.
This is why I think Israel is acting stupidly, because...they...are...doing. ..exactly...what...Hezbollah. ..wants.
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Thrawn,
Assuming for a moment you are right, and frankly I tend to agree with you except I don't think hezbollah is that smart on their own. Their handlers came up with the strategy and sent them on their way with it.
Again going with the assumption, If Isreal does not respond they get additional and or continued attacks from hezbollah into their area. Hezbollah make lots of points and recruiting goes up as they can claim to actually strike at Isreal and they are unable to fight back. Hezbollah maintains or increases their strength with no casualties to themselves.
Second scenario, Isreal fights back and hezbollah makes points because they can claim they are "fighting the good fight" and no one else is. Revuiting goes up but maybe not so much as folks realize that while hezbollah IS fighting, they are also dying, alot. While the "martyr" imbeciles wouldn't be dissuaded the more rational might be and in any event the ones that got dead can't attack Isreal again.
No matter which way you go you can claim that hezbollah can add man--- scuze me, coward power to their ranks. At least in one of the ways they pay for the actions against Isreal.
Is there a real cut and dry way to make hezbollah pay all by themselves? Nope as they are funded in part, allowed to operate and at the very least tacitly supported by lebanon. Given that hezballah has a significant minority in the parliament lebanon can't help but be partially to blame for what they do, particularly inside their own borders.
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nope sparks... your example will not fly... if the minutemen were shooting rockets from civilian houses in Texas say....
All that mexico would have to do is tell us... hell.. not even that.. they would know that we would root out the minutemen and fight em as hard as any mexican government could... their would be a statement from every U.S. official source available that we did not condone the actions of the minutemen and we would work closely with the mexicans to fix the problem along with...
Official appology and promise for reparations and public trials of the criminals.
If we did not do that then....
The mexicans would have every right to shoot rockets at American civilians hiding minutemen or even... the U.S. infrastructure supporting them.
lazs
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
SO how would you fight a "Proportionate war" if such a thing exists? One bomb for every rocket? That seems rather absurd considering. The thing that seems to piss off europeans and some lefties alike is that Israel is not afraid to step on some toes. While the EU is trying at great lengths to appease Iran and other arabs Israel is continuing to fight them in their own back yard. But it seems most europeans never met an enemy of Israel that they didn't like.
Once again you're showing your complete separation from reality. Hezbolla didn't kill any Israeli civilians in this latest round until Israel escalated the conflict by bombing civilian infrastructure targets. Meanwhile, how can you sit there labelling other nations as appeasers when your own president walks hand in hand with the Saudi Crown prince in front of the worlds press?
As far as alienating Christian lebbonese? Who cares, most of them recognized hezbollah as a legitimate entity before all of this even started.
And if Israel wants Hezbollah reigned in it needs the cooperation of the Christians, particularly as it is becoming clear that the military campaign in its current form is not going to succeed in eliminating them alone.
You can try and drag this into an argument about Iraq but it's not.
It is relevant because it proves that you don't have a clue about what you're discussing. You bang on about the threat of what you term "Islamofacism" as if it is some monolithic global threat; yet you can't answer the question as to why you've just spent $300+ billion invading and occupying the state in the region whose leader was the nemesis of both Sunni and Shia radicalism in Iraq. A country that is now dominated by the same Shia who support Hezbollah and the regime in Tehran.
you have If you don't understand Islamofascism or refuse to see the writing on the walls you are beyond hope.
I understand that it doesn't exist in the terms you think it does. Hamas and Hezbollah are primarily local movements that formed in repsonse to outside events, those being the previous Israeli invasion of Lebanon and the ongoing occupation of the West Bank. They are inward looking and parochial, not expansionist and apocalyptic. Neither really consists of a hardcore numbered in more than a few thousands. Take away the perceived injustices with which they rally popular support and their powerbase would melt away. Many Israelis know this; but they are caught in a trap of their own making since to accept such a thing challenges a basic tenet of zionism, which is the divine title they believe themselves to have over the land now largely inhabited by another ethnic group.
That Israel and its supporters are spinning this as an episode in some loosely defined global struggle just marks how desperate they are to attract outside support for a long standing fight that they are at least in part responsible for picking. Its nonsense. Its just a rerun of old strife that Israel should have settled by now by itself.
Originally posted by Thrawn
I find it hard to believe that people don't understand that this is exactly what Hezbollah wants...lots of civilians dead, homes destroyed, civil infrastructure destroyed. It's a recruiting drive.
Exactly. And it's more than that. I think Hezbollah always expected Israel to come for them eventually; in a years time, maybe more, once the political groundwork had been laid. Notice the recent and totally baseless suggestion by Fox News that Saddam's WMD may possibly now be in the Hands of Hezbollah? That's the kind of thing I mean. I think the Lebanese Shia have quite cleverly forced Israel to show their hand before they were ready knowing very well that if Israel does not finsih Hezbollah this time around, which now seems unlikely, they will be prevented from launching a more comprehensive and effective attack in the near future.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
I find it hard to believe that people don't understand that this is exactly what Hezbollah wants...lots of civilians dead, homes destroyed, civil infrastructure destroyed. It's a recruiting drive.
This is why I think Israel is acting stupidly, because...they...are...doing. ..exactly...what...Hezbollah. ..wants.
Thrawn do you have an alternative?
They could go to the UN, but then again there's been a UN presence there for the last 20+ years and what has it done. Even the UN guys on the ground are saying "yup, they are firing on Israel"
They could use diplomacy. Again been there done that and it hasn't worked. Lebanon got rid of syria last year and still hasn't gained control of their country because of hezbollah presence there. No matter how many rockets get launched into Israel its considered business as usual.
A limited response to me shows timidness. It shows they are unable to commit to kill their enemys.
Using the previous analogy, I KNOW I would be putting my family in harms way if the minutemen where a terrorist organization and they where living in my neighborhood. I empathise with those that are put in that situation, rat on their countrymen or protect their families but that's the way the dice seem to roll.
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Originally posted by Sparks
So Elfie - the fact that Israel's people are under attack gives them the right to do "whatever it takes" - your statement seems to imply this.
So if Mosad discovered a Hezbollah cell in NY and decided that the best way to deal with it was to blow the building up, and if it killed 10 or 15 innocent New Yorkers with it that would be ok ??
I'm thinking that they would get in touch with our gov to help in taking care of the problem.
Originally posted by Sparks
What the IDF is doing is lowering themselves to the level of the terrorist and in doing so alienating a population that was perhaps the most cosmopolitan and democratic in the Middle East.
And what exactly would you have them do in this situation?
They have issued warnings to get out. Their strikes are a lot more accurate as compared to those of the rockets that are being shot at them (by people who have issued no warnings).
So tell me, what should they do? Talk about it? What exactly was it that they did to warrant rockets being indiscriminately fired on their population?
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I did not realize the IRA was operating in Mexico. I'll have to look it up but I'm pretty sure they stuck to norther Ireland. Otherwise it does not have any bearing on the scenerio as it was presented.
??????
Mexico ? What on earth are you on about ? You said the US did not support organisations who targeted civilians. That statement was wrong.
If I saw a terrorst launch a rocket from my kids school yard using them as a shield in an on going conflict it would them that i'd blame for the death and destruction that would follow
If your house was a smouldering wreck and your wife dead I somehow doubt that - I think you may suddenly start thinking the guy firing the rocket may have had a point.
So to go back to my Mexico scenario - lazs if all this gallant action by the US wasn't speedy enough for the Mexican government and they started the bombardment before you considered you had enough time to act that would still be ok ?? "We asked the US government to act and they did not respond the way we wished - we had no choice".
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A good read for those of you saying this conflict is not proportionate
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/27/AR2006072701725.html
What other country, when attacked in an unprovoked aggression across a recognized international frontier, is then put on a countdown clock by the world, given a limited time window in which to fight back, regardless of whether it has restored its own security?
What other country sustains 1,500 indiscriminate rocket attacks into its cities — every one designed to kill, maim and terrorize civilians — and is then vilified by the world when it tries to destroy the enemy’s infrastructure and strongholds with precision-guided munitions that sometimes have the unintended but unavoidable consequence of collateral civilian death and suffering?
To hear the world pass judgment on the Israel-Hezbollah war as it unfolds is to live in an Orwellian moral universe. With a few significant exceptions (the leadership of the United States, Britain, Australia, Canada and a very few others), the world — governments, the media, U.N. bureaucrats — has completely lost its moral bearings.
ironicly the piece was written by a guy with the last name of Krauthammer ;)
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sparks... first of all... it would not happen because everyone knows we do not condone such action... just as everyone knows that lebenon does
But....in the wildest possible scenario... mexico might send an airstrike and hit a house that rockets were coming from in the U.S. and...
That would be fine with me.... If we did not make entrieties or if the U.S. based rocket attacks continued.... then mexico would have no recourse but to believe that we condoned the attacks.
And, of course.. they would not only be correct but justified to escalate the conflict.
lazs
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Originally posted by Sparks
??????
Mexico ? What on earth are you on about ? You said the US did not support organisations who targeted civilians. That statement was wrong.
If your house was a smouldering wreck and your wife dead I somehow doubt that - I think you may suddenly start thinking the guy firing the rocket may have had a point.
So to go back to my Mexico scenario - lazs if all this gallant action by the US wasn't speedy enough for the Mexican government and they started the bombardment before you considered you had enough time to act that would still be ok ?? "We asked the US government to act and they did not respond the way we wished - we had no choice".
MAY HAVE HAD A POINT??????
If some guy is in a school yard firing an AK he's putting in danger anyone and everyone in that yard. It would be HIM that was responsible. Now if the IDF was to drop a bomb on a target with no known military action prior to that then yes there's something legitimatly wrong there but that's not the case here and you know it.
Again if we are talking about a scenerio involving mexico not the IRA than my post stands. I'm not here to discuss past actions involving the IRA or NORAID, the story is over 20 years old and YES the US DOJ got involved and investigated them.
Again if Americans where launching rockets and sniping civilians on the Mexican border Mexico would not need to launch military action as those terrorists would be brought to justice reguardless of how many Americans sympothysed with them. That was the scenerio presented in this thread and that's what I am commenting on because it is in applicable representation of what is actually happening.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Absolutely. It's saddly ironic that the reason the observers where there was to facilitate such an investigation by being neutral observers of such crimes. Now they are being pulled out, and prosecuting for war crimes I imagine will be that much more difficult.
"UN removes unarmed observers from border
Last Updated Fri, 28 Jul 2006 11:07:53 EDT
CBC News
The United Nations will remove 50 unarmed observers from posts along the border between Israel and Lebanon to ensure their safety, a UN official said Friday."
http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/07/28/removal-posts.html
The situation becomes confusing for me when the observers become the victims in the sense of whether or not to pull them out. Does their presence deter more than it promotes an environment where war crimes are commited more often? It's so self-referential.
Thrawn I would imagine after seeing and reporting hezbollah firing from the UN positions as well as other acts there would be more than enough evidence for the war crimes purposes. Uh can you tell me what they have done about it? Did they even write a nasty letter to hezbollah soundly tongue lashing them for this?
I'd say they did more FOR hezbollah than anything else by being available as an international hostage and human shield source.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Thrawn I would imagine after seeing and reporting hezbollah firing from the UN positions as well as other acts there would be more than enough evidence for the war crimes purposes. Uh can you tell me what they have done about it? Did they even write a nasty letter to hezbollah soundly tongue lashing them for this?
I'd say they did more FOR hezbollah than anything else by being available as an international hostage and human shield source.
From retired Canadian Major General Lewis Mackenzie
"What he was telling us was Hezbollah soldiers were all over his position and the IDF were targeting them. And that’s a favorite trick by people who don’t have representation in the UN. They use the UN as shields knowing that they can’t be punished for it."
My question would be what the hell where they doing there in the first place. It doesn't seem like they where either A. doing much good or B. where needed still.
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Guns,
They were there as tools, broken tools. Why send troops to a hostile area without weapons of a means of self defense? Freaking stupid.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
ironicly the piece was written by a guy with the last name of Krauthammer ;)
why is it ironic that a jewish guy by the name of Krauthammer wrote this article? he writes articles for the Jewish World Review all the time.
btw: nice choice for an unbiased souce:lol
see for yourself (http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/krauthammer072806.php3)
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Originally posted by xrtoronto
why is it ironic that a jewish guy by the name of Krauthammer wrote this article? he writes articles for the Jewish World Review all the time.
btw: nice choice for an unbiased souce:lol
see for yourself (http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/krauthammer072806.php3)
Kraut + hammer was the humor that I was implying.
Kraut = slang for a German
Hammer = to hammer somthing or to hurt it.
Combine the two words and add the fact that the guys a jew and it seems ironic and funny to me.
Did you read it at all or just ignore it completly because the guy is a jew?
from the "biased" source:
When the United States was attacked at Pearl Harbor, it did not respond with a parallel "proportionate" attack on a Japanese naval base. It launched a four-year campaign that killed millions of Japanese, reduced Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki to a cinder, and turned the Japanese home islands to rubble and ruin. Disproportionate? No. When one is wantonly attacked by an aggressor, one has every right — legal and moral — to carry the fight until the aggressor is disarmed and so disabled that it cannot threaten one's security again. That's what it took with Japan.
sounds about right to me.
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Originally posted by Sparks
So Elfie - the fact that Israel's people are under attack gives them the right to do "whatever it takes" - your statement seems to imply this.
So if Mosad discovered a Hezbollah cell in NY and decided that the best way to deal with it was to blow the building up, and if it killed 10 or 15 innocent New Yorkers with it that would be ok ??
What the IDF is doing is lowering themselves to the level of the terrorist and in doing so alienating a population that was perhaps the most cosmopolitan and democratic in the Middle East.
Hezbollah, Hamas, Al Queda and all those organisations who aspire to promote militant Islam are the biggest threat to all our freedom in the West but destroying southern Lebanon and killing innocent Lebanese is not weakening them, it is making them stronger. Do you honestly believe that the Lebanese who watch all the foreign nationals run off to Cyprus; whose houses get bombed with out so much as a harsh word; are going to blame Hezbollah ? We need these people on our side - to inform, to rat out, to win the underground war against the terrorist. We turn the loacl population against us and the war becomes un-winable - WTG IDF.
Do you think the IDF is intentionally and with full knowledge is attacking civilians with no for no other reason than that they are Lebanese civilians? I dont. In fact, the Israelis are asking civilians to leave whenever possible.
The IDF has made it nearly impossible for Syria to come to Hezbollah's aid by bombing key roads and bridges, smart move imo.
There will be no winning of this war until Israel has been anhiliated. After the PLO came Hezbollah and Hamas, after this round of rejects has been eliminated or falls apart due to internal squabbles, another group will form and take it's place.
All this hand wringing over dead Lebanese civilians, where was your hand wringing over dead Israeli civilians? Where is your sympathy for Israelis that have lost loved ones due to terrorist attacks? Where is your outrage when terrorist rockets fall on Israeli cities? Where is your outrage when terrorists blow up Israeli school busses? Where is your outrage when Hezbollah fires rockets that they intentionally set up just outside UN observation posts? Fact is, your outrage (at least on this BBS) is non-existent when it comes to the terrorists.
It's a 2 way street over there. Militants attack Israel, Israel attacks the militants, civilians die. Tragic? Of course it is. Hezbollah brought this round of fighting onto the Lebanese intentionally. Any one with half a brain would blame Hezbollah for provoking Israel over and over and over.
How many Israeli civilians have to die before they are allowed to use brutal force to keep their people safe in your opinion?
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Edit: Hey Gunslinger, didn't see your post. I hope my response to Maverick answers your questions.
Originally posted by Maverick
No matter which way you go you can claim that hezbollah can add man--- scuze me, coward power to their ranks.
Sure, but I think that by invading southern Lebannon, Hezbollah is able recruit many more than through acting in different methods, because Lebanonese can see for themselves the effects the invasion is having on them. Where as if Israel adopted other methods the Hezbollah message gets diluted.
Is there a real cut and dry way to make hezbollah pay all by themselves? Nope as they are funded in part, allowed to operate and at the very least tacitly supported by lebanon. Given that hezballah has a significant minority in the parliament lebanon can't help but be partially to blame for what they do, particularly inside their own borders.
I agree. NATO et al decided after 9.11 that harbouring terrorists is casus belli to go kick the **** out of countries government and replace it. If I was King of Israel I would argue for the same sort of action regarding Lebanon, but I would give them an out. Accept a large multinational peacekeeping force in southern Lebanon (and no, not simply observers, but guys with guns and ROE to be able to use them). They could perform joint patrols with the Lebanese military. The Lebanese military would not have forewarning of the routes and/or timing of the patrols. They are there for face saving purposes.
This would help secure the border. Bring the fight to Hezbollah while minimizing killing civilians etc. Bring the acts of Hezbolah to greater prominence on the world stage (I think I can imagine what would happen to sympathy for Hezbolah in say Norway if a few of their peacekeepers got killed by them). And deflect criticism from Israel.
If Lebanon does not agree to this, then it's regime change time.
Unfortunately Israel doesn't have alot of allies as they have a habit of pissing off alot of countries one way or another. But I think it would be worth a shot. The key is to act multilaterally.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Edit: Hey Gunslinger, didn't see your post. I hope my response to Maverick answers your questions.
Sure, but I think that by invading southern Lebannon, Hezbollah is able recruit many more than through acting in different methods, because Lebanonese can see for themselves the effects the invasion is having on them. Where as if Israel adopted other methods the Hezbollah message gets diluted.
I agree. NATO et al decided after 9.11 that harbouring terrorists is casus belli to go kick the **** out of countries government and replace it. If I was King of Israel I would argue for the same sort of action regarding Lebanon, but I would give them an out. Accept a large multinational peacekeeping force in southern Lebanon (and no, not simply observers, but guys with guns and ROE to be able to use them). They could perform joint patrols with the Lebanese military. The Lebanese military would not have forewarning of the routes and/or timing of the patrols. They are there for face saving purposes.
This would help secure the border. Bring the fight to Hezbollah while minimizing killing civilians etc. Bring the acts of Hezbolah to greater prominence on the world stage (I think I can imagine what would happen to sympathy for Hezbolah in say Norway if a few of their peacekeepers got killed by them). And deflect criticism from Israel.
If Lebanon does not agree to this, then it's regime change time.
Unfortunately Israel doesn't have alot of allies as they have a habit of pissing off alot of countries one way or another. But I think it would be worth a shot. The key is to act multilaterally.
Thrawn I think you have the right Idea there but I don't think the UN itself will go for it.
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I agree. NATO et al decided after 9.11 that harbouring terrorists is casus belli to go kick the **** out of countries government and replace it. If I was King of Israel I would argue for the same sort of action regarding Lebanon, but I would give them an out. Accept a large multinational peacekeeping force in southern Lebanon (and no, not simply observers, but guys with guns and ROE to be able to use them). They could perform joint patrols with the Lebanese military. The Lebanese military would not have forewarning of the routes and/or timing of the patrols. They are there for face saving purposes.
This would help secure the border. Bring the fight to Hezbollah while minimizing killing civilians etc. Bring the acts of Hezbolah to greater prominence on the world stage (I think I can imagine what would happen to sympathy for Hezbolah in say Norway if a few of their peacekeepers got killed by them). And deflect criticism from Israel.
If Lebanon does not agree to this, then it's regime change time.
Unfortunately Israel doesn't have alot of allies as they have a habit of pissing off alot of countries one way or another. But I think it would be worth a shot. The key is to act multilaterally.
Nice post Thrawn. Would this solution work? I dunno, but I think it's worth a shot too. Imo the key to this solution is armed Peacekeepers that have the authority and WILL to use the weapons issued to them.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Thrawn I think you have the right Idea there but I don't think the UN itself will go for it.
You are most likely right Gunslinger. The UN has never had a bite to go with its bark.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Did you read it at all or just ignore it completly because the guy is a jew?
there are good and bad in all 'races' of people guns...I learned that a very long time ago.
I also have jewish friends here in TO...and I know one of them who visited Israel only last summer with his rabbi and about 40 others, who thinks as I do, that this particular response in Lebanon is not a good one.
I am personally angry because IDF killed a Major from the Canadian Armed Forces who was there for the last 9 months for the purpose of only observing things. A few days before that, the IDF killed 8 other Canadians.
I think it's a VERY cheap cop-out to call someone who is critical of Israel anti-semitic. It's like the black person who doesn't get the job they applied for and screams 'racist'. If you don't believe me...google "israeli blogs" and read for yourself...there are Israelis who feel just the way I do!
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Originally posted by xrtoronto
there are good and bad in all 'races' of people guns...I learned that a very long time ago.
I also have jewish friends here in TO...and I know one of them who visited Israel only last summer with his rabbi and about 40 others, who thinks as I do, that this particular response in Lebanon is not a good one.
I am personally angry because IDF killed a Major from the Canadian Armed Forces who was there for the last 9 months for the purpose of only observing things. A few days before that, the IDF killed 8 other Canadians.
I think it's a VERY cheap cop-out to call someone who is critical of Israel anti-semitic. It's like the black person who doesn't get the job they applied for and screams 'racist'. If you don't believe me...google "israeli blogs" and read for yourself...there are Israelis who feel just the way I do!
I agree with you completly that the race card is played way to often. You have my sympothy for the loss of your countrymen as they died serving somthing greater then themselves.
OTOH, I see a pattern forming in Europe and in the UN that it seems they've never met an enemy of Israel that they didn't like. Peoples that would be considered despicable in any other light are "freedom fighters" and the like. I don't agree with it and espouse my opinion on it whenever afforded the oppertunity to do so.
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Donzo posted
So tell me, what should they do? Talk about it? What exactly was it that they did to warrant rockets being indiscriminately fired on their population?
That's the real question Donzo. Israel did nothing except exist and in the eyes of Hezbollah that is enough. Talking to Hezbollah is no use - the stated aim of Hezbollah and others is the destruction of Israel. However the agressor is not a standard army and so confronting it with a standard military response is ineffective - hence the situation in Iraq. The enemy is hidden within the normal populace, surviving by intimidation and thuggery and the support of an alienated minority.
But it is a Lebanese problem - Hezbollah are a pollitical party in Lebanon and have a minority following. The Lebanese government should be forced to take a view for the country as a whole as to whether Hezbollah has a place in the country. The west as a whole should stand behind Israel and give a timescale for Lebanon to decide it's attitude to Hezbollah and it should be made clear that it's a "with us or against us" choice to quote GWB - with Hezbollah support comes destruction. But while that decision is being made we should be on the ground in Lebanon in the villages and towns treating the citizens with respect and building trust. This is the policy the British army has learned over the years to be the most effective.
You need the peoples help to beat an embedded terrorist organisation - you need information and contacts and the trust that you will use it to help bring peace.
A 500lb bomb dropped from a distant plane on a house with an apology afterwards is hardly a means to build trust. The ceasefire should start now and we should be in now to help re-build homes and trust however I feel it may be too late.
Lebanon, Iraq, Afghanistan where-ever - military blitzkrieg is never going to defeat a dispersed terrorist force - how many times must we see it fail to learn the lesson.
In regards the Washington post quote What other country sustains 1,500 indiscriminate rocket attacks into its cities — every one designed to kill, maim and terrorize civilians — and is then vilified by the world when it tries to destroy the enemy’s infrastructure and strongholds with precision-guided munitions that sometimes have the unintended but unavoidable consequence of collateral civilian death and suffering
Nicely spun - the majority of the 1500 fall into open fields as they they are unguided where-as the Israeli precision guided weapons go astray and hit buildings with civilians in as an un-avoidable consequence ?? The UN post was clearly marked and we have all seen the video proudly displayed of laser guide waepons going in the front door of hangars e.g. the destrauction of the Al-zarqurwi house. If they are that bad with precision guided stuff maybe they need more training ??
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Once again, the poster showing the more in-depth knowledge of the topic is completely ignored.
Momus. I don't know how you still have the patience.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Thrawn I think you have the right Idea there but I don't think the UN itself will go for it.
I wouldn't have to get the whole UN to go for it, just the big boys on the Security Council. I would tell China and Russia that a stable middle east means cheaper oil for them. France, England and the US would probably be on side. Although oil companies probably would not, instability is a great excuse to raise the price. The non-permant members could proably be brought on side if those five were. Japan, Denmark, they are peace loving peoples. Play up peace and happiness ect, which are all good things, with a propaganda campaign aimed at the citizens of the countries that sit on the SC. Hell, merely by offering a mulitlateral peaceful solution I'm taking the wind out of Hezbollah's sails, and turning a recruiting drive into a look-what-a-bunch-of-*******s-Hezbollah-is drive. Meanwhile Israel is smelling like a rose.
If anyone started to balk I would say, "Look, if this proposal isn't accept there is going to be a regime change in Lebanon one way or another.". Then see who blinks first, do the members really want an escalation and all it entails?
Originally posted by Elfie
You are most likely right Gunslinger. The UN has never had a bite to go with its bark.
The UN's (or more appropriately Security Council's) bite is only as good as it's members desire to do something about a situation.
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The UN post was clearly marked and we have all seen the video proudly displayed of laser guide waepons going in the front door of hangars e.g. the destrauction of the Al-zarqurwi house.
While that is true, we never see the videos of these weapons when they fail to work as advertised. Even when they do work they dont always hit their targets exactly. Take the new US artillery round for example, Excalibur. It's a gps guided round. If it hits within 10 meters or so of it's intended target it is considered a success. Not all of these munitions are as *precision* as we have been lead to believe.
I dont think we will ever see an armed conflict were innocents dont die.
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The UN's (or more appropriately Security Council's) bite is only as good as it's members desire to do something about a situation.
Very true Thrawn. The SC can rarely agree on actions that should be taken.
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Originally posted by Sparks
But it is a Lebanese problem -
Originally posted by Sparks
In regards the Washington post quote Nicely spun - the majority of the 1500 fall into open fields as they they are unguided where-as the Israeli precision guided weapons go astray and hit buildings with civilians in as an un-avoidable consequence ??
So what you are in saying is that the fact that some of these rockets end up falling into an open field this should not be problem for Israel?
They should pack up there stuff and go home and wait for the Lebanese gov to put Hezbollah in it's place?
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Originally posted by Thrawn
I find it hard to believe that people don't understand that this is exactly what Hezbollah wants...lots of civilians dead, homes destroyed, civil infrastructure destroyed. It's a recruiting drive.
This is why I think Israel is acting stupidly, because...they...are...doing. ..exactly...what...Hezbollah. ..wants.
and your solution the the aged conflict in the ME is what?
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What about simple negligence on the part of the UN?
This is not the first time UN observers have died....why place your personnel in a place of such danger? Does the benefit outweigh cost?
What benefit could possibly be worth the death of those men to the UN?
Wonder if we'll get to read the emails from those that died...the one's that stated, Hey....can we get out of here?
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Eflie your post
All this hand wringing over dead Lebanese civilians, where was your hand wringing over dead Israeli civilians? Where is your sympathy for Israelis that have lost loved ones due to terrorist attacks? Where is your outrage when terrorist rockets fall on Israeli cities? Where is your outrage when terrorists blow up Israeli school busses? Where is your outrage when Hezbollah fires rockets that they intentionally set up just outside UN observation posts? Fact is, your outrage (at least on this BBS) is non-existent when it comes to the terrorists.
Yes I suppose I have been quiet on the side of the Isreali deaths and that got me thinking why; I suppose you react (for instance posting on a BBS) to things that shock you or anger you. The acts that the terrorists commit have become so normalized now that I am no longer shocked and although I still feel the outrage and sorrow for the families I no longer react - that isn't to say my feelings towards the events have changed. That I responded to this situation is probably because I expected better of the Israelis - expected them to be more compassionate towards the local population - especially considering their last experince in Lebanon.
Guns - have you ever actualy been to Europe or lived in a European country ?? You trot out this statement about Europeans being anti-semetic without anything to base it on - please illuminate your assertion with some examples.
IMHO this can only be stopped by a ceasefire and then an armed NATO force being established in southern Lebanon at the invitation of the Lebanese government with the authority to use full force to stop terrorist activity.
The Lebanese governement was a freely elected government of the people without outside interference - what better way to enforce the legitamacy of the fight against terrorism than at the invitation of a freely elected Middle Eastern government.
Elfie is right - the death of Israeli citizens is an outrage and has to stop but the current reaction is dis-proportionate and - much worse - it is counter productive. Israelis are still dying and the number of people wanting to see them dead is increasing.
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Originally posted by Elfie
Take the new US artillery round for example, Excalibur. It's a gps guided round. If it hits within 10 meters or so of it's intended target it is considered a success. Not all of these munitions are as *precision* as we have been lead to believe.
A note, you picked the least precise 'precision' munition. I'm certain it is an oversight, as a standard modern artillery round is considered a success if it lands within 270 meters of its target from extreme range. The bombs and cruise missiles, otoh, have sub meter accuracy. Also, the 30 meter figure is the outside limit of expected accuracy for the XM982
...but don't let these facts get in the way of a good rant! :D
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I guess what angers me most over this is how people forget how many times Israel has done as the rest of the world asked of it.
UN and Company tell them they get peace if they leave Lebanon. Or give up these lands. And those. And what to they get? More bombings, more attacks, etc etc.
People seem to have a really short memory about these things. They *have* done it the UN way. They complied, others did not.
So when your borders are attacked, soldiers taken hostage, etc etc...finally enough is enough.
Again, I'll point out how its stupid how all the coverage is one sided....with the media boohoo'ing for Lebanon and not the Israeli's, who have been hammered with more and more rockets...and now some with longer ranges.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Absolutely. It's saddly ironic that the reason the observers where there was to facilitate such an investigation by being neutral observers of such crimes. Now they are being pulled out, and prosecuting for war crimes I imagine will be that much more difficult.
Warcrimes? Like the terrorist acts over the last few decades and every rocket fired by Hezbolla into civillian targets? How many of these thousands of terrorists has the UN brought to justice? I think what you mean is too bad they won't be there to hold Israel in check.
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Sparks,
Your source for the ratio of hezbolah missiles landing in open areas vs the city of Haifa? Next question. Don't you feel the INTENT of hezbollah launching missiles into Haifa is to kill civillians as the target? Last question, can you let us know when the hezbollaw sent leaflets warning the civilian population that an attack was imminent and to evacuate?
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Originally posted by Rude
and your solution the the aged conflict in the ME is what?
The whole middle east? I have some ideas, but I think I'll stick to Lebanon/Israel as I posted above.
What about simple negligence on the part of the UN?
This is not the first time UN observers have died....why place your personnel in a place of such danger? Does the benefit outweigh cost?
What benefit could possibly be worth the death of those men to the UN?
That's the exact question I asked above.
"The situation becomes confusing for me when the observers become the victims in the sense of whether or not to pull them out. Does their presence deter more than it promotes an environment where war crimes are commited more often? It's so self-referential."
I get the feeling that in your rush to criticise me you missed some of my posts in this thread.
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The UN isn't going to insert an active combat force on the Lebanese border. Period. Not Going To Happen Ever.
I would think this is obvious to even the most casual observer.
Inserting such a force would be a de facto hunt for Hez.
The Israelis aren't going to be in Lebanon if such a force were there. The Israelis aren't going to attack such a force if it were there.
OTOH, Hez will still be trying to shoot projectiles into Israel, kidnap Israeli soldiers in cross border ops and trying to smuggle the suicide bombers across the border.
As a result, it'd be the UN Force VS Hez, in open conflict.
Is there ANYONE that really believes the UN would dare such action?
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Originally posted by Toad
Is there ANYONE that really believes the UN would dare such action?
nope....
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Originally posted by Chairboy
A note, you picked the least precise 'precision' munition. I'm certain it is an oversight, as a standard modern artillery round is considered a success if it lands within 270 meters of its target from extreme range. The bombs and cruise missiles, otoh, have sub meter accuracy. Also, the 30 meter figure is the outside limit of expected accuracy for the XM982
...but don't let these facts get in the way of a good rant! :D
It was just an example. Nothing more.
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Yes I suppose I have been quiet on the side of the Isreali deaths and that got me thinking why; I suppose you react (for instance posting on a BBS) to things that shock you or anger you. The acts that the terrorists commit have become so normalized now that I am no longer shocked and although I still feel the outrage and sorrow for the families I no longer react - that isn't to say my feelings towards the events have changed. That I responded to this situation is probably because I expected better of the Israelis - expected them to be more compassionate towards the local population - especially considering their last experince in Lebanon.
Fair enough Sparks :)
I think we all become less sensitive to the terrorist attacks over time. I think thats normal for us humans.
I dont really *expect better out of the Israelis*, I expect the Israeli gov't to react violently to attacks on their citizens, same as I expect my gov't to react just as violently in regards to attacks on US civilians. Maybe thats why I am not so shocked by what is happening in Lebabon now.
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Originally posted by LePaul
I guess what angers me most over this is how people forget how many times Israel has done as the rest of the world asked of it.
UN and Company tell them they get peace if they leave Lebanon. Or give up these lands. And those. And what to they get? More bombings, more attacks, etc etc.
People seem to have a really short memory about these things. They *have* done it the UN way. They complied, others did not.
So when your borders are attacked, soldiers taken hostage, etc etc...finally enough is enough.
Again, I'll point out how its stupid how all the coverage is one sided....with the media boohoo'ing for Lebanon and not the Israeli's, who have been hammered with more and more rockets...and now some with longer ranges.
Spot on imo LePaul.
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Originally posted by Momus--
Seagoon, the problem is that even a majority of the large Lebanese Christian population see Hezbollah as a legitimate organisation, so to ascribe their actions to Islamic anti-semitism is clearly inaccurate. People in the region have long memories; Israel's role in the bloody civil war and the subsequent invasion and large scale bloodshed and destruction on an equally dubious pretext in 1982 is still very fresh in local memories.
Events today are not taking place in a vaccuum; this is why your comparision of Israeli necessities with those of the WW2 allies is flawed. Israel is not fighting a war of liberation or even of national survival even though this is what they want you to think. Israel is the regional superpower that has accepted a low-level conflict with groups like Hezbollah and Hamas as the price it pays for it's still ongoing colonisation of the West Bank and the negative effect on regional sensibilities that the settlement program has. Have you forgotten already what prompted the Hezbollah raid that sparked this latest episode? It was a reaction to the post-pullout blockage of Gaza imposed by the IDF and in particular to the bombing of power and water infrastructure targets following the kidnapping of the Israeli corporal last month; bombing that amounted to little more than the collective and disproportionate punishment of the civilian population of Gaza.
This is why I've got such as issue with Israel's current campaign and not just with the UN casualties. Israel has consistently done nothing to ease the tensions that lead to outbreaks such as this latest, then dons the mantle of the aggreived party at the first opportunity when in reality it carries an equal share of the guilt. Couple this with has a history of disregard for the safety of neutrals and civlians who happen to be in the IDF's line of fire and that's a good reason to be critical of Israeli actions.
Also, from the article Ripsnort quoted:
ahem.
Refugees
Christians Fleeing Lebanon Denounce Hezbollah
But for some of the Christians who had made it out in this convoy, it was not just privations they wanted to talk about, but their ordeal at the hands of Hezbollah — a contrast to the *****es, who make up a vast majority of the population in southern Lebanon and broadly support the militia.
“Hezbollah came to Ain Ebel to shoot its rockets,” said Fayad Hanna Amar, a young Christian man, referring to his village. “They are shooting from between our houses.”
“Please,’’ he added, “write that in your newspaper.”.............
.....Many Christians from Ramesh and Ain Ebel considered Hezbollah’s fighting methods as much of an outrage as the Israeli strikes. Mr. Amar said Hezbollah fighters in groups of two and three had come into Ain Ebel, less than a mile from Bint Jbail, where most of the fighting has occurred. They were using it as a base to shoot rockets, he said, and the Israelis fired back......................... ..................
One woman, who would not give her name because she had a government job and feared retribution, said Hezbollah fighters had killed a man who was trying to leave Bint Jbail.
“This is what’s happening, but no one wants to say it” for fear of Hezbollah, she said. .
This, from the notoriously right-wing New York Times (albeit page A19)
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/28/world/middleeast/28refugees.html?_r=6&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=login&oref=login
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I saw a clip over the weekend....Arabs...yes, Arabs...who live in Northern Israel falling victim to these rockets.
How oh how could they do this to their "Arab Brothers".... :rolleyes:
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Israel is the regional superpower that has accepted a low-level conflict with groups like Hezbollah and Hamas as the price it pays for it's still ongoing colonisation of the West Bank and the negative effect on regional sensibilities that the settlement program has.
What happened when Israel pulled it's military and settlers out of the Gaza Strip? Attacks from Gaza by militants. What will happen when Israel finally pulls out of the West Bank also? My guess is nothing will change except the targets.
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Originally posted by Toad
Is there ANYONE that really believes the UN would dare such action?
Maybe not but as King of Israel I would advocate for it anyway.
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(continuation of my stupid hyjack - try to ignore it)
Sorry Seagon. I had forgotten about this post (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=171575) where you did answer me on almost the exact same question. And your answer here in this thread was also very thoughtful.
I guess it still just doesn't compute with me. It probably never will. But that's not your problem - it's mine. Thanks for answering me at any rate.
/stupid out of bounds hyjack
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Mav, you're taking the same tack as Guns - that my views against what the IDF is doing is therefore justifying what Hezbollah are doing. That's nonsense - read my posts; nowhere do I support Hezbollah or it's actions.
My point is simple - the aim of the Israeli action is the killing of Hezbollah forces; the reduction of Hezbollah to zero; however what they are actually acheiving is the strengthening of hezbollah support and deepening the hatred of Israel. It is counter productive and, worse than that, it is killing innocent civilians as well as building support for our enemies. Action was needed but the type of action is wrong.
The cause is just, the goal is sound, the method is flawed - it's that simple.
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Originally posted by Elfie
The UN has never had a bite to go with its bark.
Which is why the UN is useless and has been since 1947.
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Hi Nash,
NP, Thanks for being a gentleman about it.
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by Sparks
Mav, you're taking the same tack as Guns - that my views against what the IDF is doing is therefore justifying what Hezbollah are doing. That's nonsense - read my posts; nowhere do I support Hezbollah or it's actions.
My point is simple - the aim of the Israeli action is the killing of Hezbollah forces; the reduction of Hezbollah to zero; however what they are actually acheiving is the strengthening of hezbollah support and deepening the hatred of Israel. It is counter productive and, worse than that, it is killing innocent civilians as well as building support for our enemies. Action was needed but the type of action is wrong.
The cause is just, the goal is sound, the method is flawed - it's that simple.
They are in fact killing hezbollah and reducing hezbollah to zero and if there is any gained support of hezbollah it is a bi-product of their action. You cannot win this action through appeasment, it just wont work.
One cannot be afraid to fight terrorism because it will increase the finatics resolve.
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They are in fact killing hezbollah and reducing hezbollah to zero
My God, you really believe that don't you ? Hezbollah were formed nearly 25 years ago and have survived through the civil war and the Israeli occupation and you think they can be destroyed in two weeks of incursions :D ! Read up on the region. These are not a uniformed force tied to a specific area who stand to defend a town or village - they're stateless terrorists constantly moving.
and if there is any gained support of hezbollah it is a bi-product of their action.
So killing one and creating two is victory ? Interesting idea ...
And now the much used appeasement accusation. I'm no appeaser but you can't seem to accept that this isn't a war for conventional warfare that can be won in weeks or months. This is a war of Intel, special forces and black ops. I was truly happy when we saw Zarqurwi killed in the manner he was - no accident but Intel, and precision. We win when we start to terrorise the terrorist. When he thinks the next person to come through the door is a special forces op. When he fears the people round him, not trusts them. When the people round him believe he represents death and we represent peace. Every side report of a raid on a house or a small group of insurgents killed in a "raid" makes me happy as these are the glimpses of what we are allowed to see of REAL victories and progress against these animals.
So what use is conventional warfare ? Well if can catch a rocket launcher in the open then sure laser guide it and WTFG but otherwise it's not effective. About the only operation to be of any use right now is probably the fight going on at Bint Abeil but that is of only minor importance in the big picture.
You carry on Hooo-Yaaa-ing to the video of Artillery batteries and F16's. I'll keep my heartfelt thanks to those patrolling in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere trying to build peace and relationships and to especial thanks to those we never see who take the fight up close and personal to the terrorists and kill them in their beds. They are scum and need to die isolated and and in fear.
But I'm just an anti-semtic yoo-ro-pean appeaser ...
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Maybe I should have been more specific. They are reducing hezbollah to zero in the region. Syria and Iran cannot logistically support them anymore as the supply lines have been cut and the suply convoys bombed.
But alas I give up. Why fight at all, we might run the risk of creating more enemys. Heck we might even stub our toes in the process.
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So sparks, in other words you have no answers to the questions I asked you in cluding to support your claim of the accuracy of the hezbollah missiles.
You still seem to feel it is the only fault of Isreal that civilians are killed because they fired back rather than because hezbollah is using them as human shields.
Seems kinda one sided to me there.
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You're right - I give up too. You don't seem to actually read[/i] digest and undertand anything. You are blind to the idea that there are multiple ways of fighting and we need to fight harder now than we have before - but differently.
The REALY scary thing is you are teaching the future soldiers who may one day find themselves in these theatres.
I'm done.
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Hey I know...next time there is a bank robber who takes a hostage...Let's kill the hostage to get a better shot!
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Ok Mav, one post more for you.
Here's an example from Bloomberg,Israeli aircraft resumed the bombardment of Beirut today as Hezbollah rockets hit Haifa and Safed, Israel's army said. At least 126 rockets hit Israel today, with 14 hitting Haifa, the army said. One person was seriously wounded outside the city, Israeli's third largest, it said.
126 fired - 14 on city, One person serious injured. It's here (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=amreuK0ILgN0&refer=home) . My others are from TV on BBC, CNN, and others - the story is roughly the same.
Answer to next question - obviously the intent is to kill as many as possible.
Answer to last question - obviously they have not leafleted Israel - they want to kill all Israelis' who breathe.
Please Mav show me anywhere anyhow I have said that Hezobollah - not the Lebanese civilian population - but Hezbollah - have my support or I accept what they do. Does nobody actually read what is written ?
I say again - Israel's cause is just and the goal shared by all - the execution is wrong. We should be turning Southern Lebanon into the NATO special forces training area. I would vote today for tax increases to raise our special forces numbers to whatever we needed to fight and win this war in all the theatres but conventional warfare is NOT the answer.
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Ok sparks, where did the others fall? Was it out away from everything or was it just outside of the city limits? You still didn't explain why the bad evil isrealis returning fire are so much worse than the hezbollah who fired into a city where fire was not coming from and no military objective.
I saw you later put a proviso on your posts bout the hezbolah don't have your support and all yet you don't seem to blame them for using their own folks as human shields. You're more upset about the isrealis counter battery fire hitting the human shields the hezbollah set up.
That's why I asked the questions I did.
I seriously doubt that NATO is going to do a damn thing about putting any training base in the area. Heck even the mighty UN can't put armed troops there with permition to defend themselves or keep their perimeter intact. Since NATO is primarily the same folks who don't want their troops there with the UN they damn sure won't do it for NATO. Besides what possible threat does Lebanon have to europe? They going to invade them or something?
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Mav the evidence I have seen is not in a format I can post here - for example a report from Jon Simpson and the BBC from an Israeli helicopter showing multiple smoke plumes in feilds and vineyards - to me they seem randomly scattered.
But my point here is that we should not be saying the action the IDF is disproportionate to the actions and intent of Hezbollah but rather the action of the IDF is disproportionate to their intended stated outcome. The deeds do not match the words.
And that is my point, we should not be justifying our actions by comparison with the actions of stone age religious nutjobs. You ask about blaming Hezbollah about using sheilds - yes I blame them but if we go ahead an kill the human sheilds and then blame Hezbollah for the deaths when we knowingly pulled the trigger then I say we are lowering ourselves to thier level.
If you want to judge on comparison of intent then sure Hezbollah want to destroy Israel and every Israeli and so any response could be justified - all out nuclear onslaught ?
But Israel is a civilised nation not terrorists and the stated aim quoted by the IDf and Israeli government is the destruction of Hezbollah - however the actions they are carrying out do not match the words in nature or effect. In hindsight drawing the comaprison I did was an error on my part.
If there is any point to make about the rocket strike accuracy (intent apart) it is that the nation of Israel is far from under threat of imminent destruction and so there is time to do the job right if we wanted to.
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So how should hezbollah be killed when they hide among civilians. I am interested to see how you think it's going to happen.
BTW I thought you were done here. :p
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Ooops - you added to your post.
For sure the UN is a waste of time which is why I suggested it should be a NATO job - like Bosnia. the "training camp" statement was more of an descriptive tool - I was trying to say that we should have the opportunity to feild as many people as we can and for as long as necessary to do the job.
As far as Lebanon being a threat to Europe - none - but we are not fighting Lebanon (there is that automatic association again). Lebanon has been actively trying to attract European tourists prior to the Israeli attacks. As far as Hezbollah being a threat to Europe - most certainly. Unlike the US many European countries have sizeable Muslim populations - ripe recruiting grounds for dis-affected Muslim youth. And the Middle East is in out back yard. I think NATO most definitely has a role - this is a war right ?
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I was done but you keep posting .... again. :lol
Like any terrorist organisation embedded in a civilian population I think this will be won by covert ops and special forces.... and lots of time.
IMHO ordinary people align themselves to these nutjobs when they feel the nutjobs provide their best hope. When they have even minority support within the poplation they are able to hide and operate. So we have to convince these ordinary people that all they can expect by being alligned with and supporting these people is violence and death and that peace and security come from allignment with us. It becomes an accelerating process - more terrorists are informed on to remove them from communities and safe houses reduce - people see the benefits and so on.
But we have to have in place the tools to gather the information - act on it with full force and provide the ordinary person the security we say is the reward. That means large forces on the ground in the towns and villages.
This is what we are doing in Afghanistan - ramping up our forces in the provinces - and I applaud it and give my utmost respect and gratitude to the men and women out there.
Saying we offer peace and security by removing Hezbollah and then shelling their house is hardly a convincing arguement.
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I seem to recall there was some discussion about "special ops" and the Isreali's. If I recall they got a lot of flack for going after and removing terrorists. I would think that given time, something the hezbollah is not allowing by their rocket attacks, the Isreali's could do a number on their heirarchy and have been doing it on Hamas in the past. Then there's this bit about armed conflict across national borders not in a time of war problem. It somewhat limits operations when your operations are condemned internationally for doing it in just the manner you suggest and that trhey have in fact done in the past.
It's a bit of a dillema but for now since hamas and hezbollah decided to kick off hostilities against the Isreali's by crossing the border and using armed warfare tactics, it's a rather moot point. They lit the match and seem to be getting rather burned about it.
IIRC there was no war per se, before hamas and hezbollah started shooting at and into Isreal.
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Hezbollah was using UN post as 'shield'
At least somebody found some use for them.
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Originally posted by deSelys
Oh, and nice job about the 'risk my life to protect people' thing... Like beating up the countryside in a F15 and wearing cool sunglasses was a chore, get a grip.
I'd accept it from you if you were a grunt in Afghanistan like a former squadmate of mine... a canuck, mind you. He's already been shot at a lot and he has lost more than a couple of buddies. He's seen the real deal, I don't think that you have...yet (I'm not saying that you've avoided dangerous assignments, don't put those words into my mouth).
Sorry about the delayed response here, 'ressurecting an old thread' and so on. It was just brought to my attention.
Do me a favor deSelys. Tell your accqaintance that spent time on the ground in Afghanistan that you just slagged a Strike Eagle driver.
Not to rain on your moral indignation based on someone else's sacrifices, but I've been on the ground in Afghanistan as well and anyone that flies something that carries bombs gets free beers from me for life.
And as for your cool sunglasses comment, unless you've flown in the military I'd shut your trap before you look more like a fool. Or maybe we could ask Eagl if he's ever lost any buddies...even tho he never walked around on the ground in Afghanistan.
You're an idiot.
Love,
wulfie
p.s. Hey everyone who I know. Sorry I haven't called. I've been busy as all hades. Rest assured when I get a desktop comp. and time to play AH again I'll be right there, in the thick of it, getting flamed by lazs in his damn F4U. :)
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Originally posted by deSelys
Oh, and nice job about the 'risk my life to protect people' thing...
I'll add one more comment here. After all, Eagl may be busy 'taking it easy' up in the skies.
My first job in the military was Rescue Swimmer. During peacetime, I saw plenty of Pilot and Aircrew bodies, all while there was not a single good guy walking the ground in Afghanistan or Iraq. It happens somewhere, probably every couple of months.
You may not be aware of this, because most media outlets don't consider it front-page news. If a couple of guys die in a training accident, the local paper and tv news show (local to where the guys are based) will run the story of course.
Military aviation is a dangerous job. And there are no 'limb injuries' (from a grenade fragment or a skipping AK round) when something goes wrong with an aircraft. If it goes bad, it goes bad 'all the way'. And ejection seats and parachutes are no automatic 'you are safe' button. One of the most heinously injured Pilots I have ever heard of bought it attempting to eject safely. Come to think if it, if memory serves, he was flying an F-15 at the time. I bet he was really grateful he wasn't in real danger...right up until everthing went wrong.
Military Pilots and Aircrew risk life and limb every time they take off.
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say again - Israel's cause is just and the goal shared by all - the execution is wrong. We should be turning Southern Lebanon into the NATO special forces training area. I would vote today for tax increases to raise our special forces numbers to whatever we needed to fight and win this war in all the theatres but conventional warfare is NOT the answer.
:aok