Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: xrtoronto on July 29, 2006, 03:23:40 PM
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Was doing some reading and came across this:
link (http://www.ussliberty.org/)
I was around at the time, but remember nothing of this incident. All new to me.
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Why did Israel attack a US ship?
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Yeah I remembered reading about this...sad.
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IIRC happened during the Yom Kippor (sp?) War. Israel claims to have mistaken the ship for an Egyptian spy trawler despite having the US ensign prominatly displayed. Recall seeing an interview with some admiral that I think was the flag admiral of a US carrier task force that was in the area of the Liberty. He ordered the entire compliment of aircraft loaded up and ready for an alpha strike to retaliate but was told to stand down.
Was it an accident? Personally I don't think it was but on the other hand, what would have the Israelis have gained by sinking the Liberty? One scenerio was that since the Liberty was a intelligence gathering ship, it would have intercepted radio signals from the Israelis and potentially exposing their plans to invade Egypt.
ack-ack
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I have heard about it over the years. I wonder how big of a deal the media made out of it then?
Does not seem well known at all.
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ive heard about this attack before... its one of our lessons during MI school.. its another case of shakey fingers on the trigger.. the mind gets a bit jumbled during conflict.... another case of this, US destroyer (or cruiser.. cant remember) shoots down a Iranian Airliner during the Iran Iraq war, just watched a show on it last night on discovery channel..
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Before my time, don't remember it from History either. ( maybe thats the part I slept through)
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I recall it. No matter what you want to believe, on purppose or accident, it was a serious situation and came close to really harming relations between the US and Isreal. The "official" story was it was a case of mistaken identity. Whether that is tyhe truth or not is really unknown except to the pilots that conducted the attack. It shouldn't have happened, but I don't know which story to believe myself.
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I have been reading thru this long article a little bit at a time (it has dozens and dozens of links) and found about a third of the way down:
"During the Six Day War between Israel and the Arab States, the American intelligence ship USS Liberty was attacked for 75 minutes in international waters by Israeli aircraft and motor torpedo boats. Thirty-four men died and 174 were wounded.":O
attack was 75 minutes?? I originally thought it was one single mistake, not an entire attack
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It was a big deal at the time.
I find it extremely hard to believe that it was accidental.
Unfortunately, LBJ and McNamara chose not to confront Israel.
Carter/Mondale accepted Israel's offer of reparations and closed the issue right when Senator Adlai Stevenson called a news conference in which he announced that he was convinced that the attack was deliberate and that the survivors deserved an investigation. After the "deal" Congress couldn't be bothered with the Liberty incident.
The rumor is we increased aid to Israel every year by the same amount they payed us on the installment plan.
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They kept saying "woops" every time they fired for 75 minutes... so all was forgiven.
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But not forgotten.
They tried to stiff us on improvements they made to our electronic warfare gear too. They significantly improved some of the stuff and proved it in the Bekaa Valley air battle. When we asked about it, they refused to show us the improvements. We eventually got to see some of it when some military deliveries to them were held up due to unforseen circumstances. I don't think we ever saw everything though.
They play us for chumps when they feel the need.
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I remember it also.
As far as the press, 1967 was a year for dramatic news beyond the 6-day war. It was lead story on TV for a few days, but other bad news took over soon.
Vietnam was spooling up with the first 100+/week US battle deaths.
It was a long, hot summer of the worst race riots in the history of the US.
China tested its first hydrogen device.
The Apollo astronauts died in an inferno.
For me, the question about the Liberty was always about the failure of the ship to respond to identification challenges by radio and its response to the shots across the bow by firing at the Israeli boats.
It's important to note that these intelligence gathering (spy) ships do not fly a flag when under way. They may or may not raise a flag when challenged. Either way, someone on either side made a mistake. More likely, it was a combination of mistakes by both sides.
Just like the Pueblo capture by North Korea later (which raised a flag after being challenged), two camps evolved. Some said both captains should have been court martialed and others said they should be given a medal.
One got a medal, the other was recommended for court martial, but the Secretary of the Navy overruled it.
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Interesting read here (http://www.nsa.gov/liberty/liber00010.pdf); this an NSA report written long after the action.
I don't recall any reports of radio challenges to the Liberty though. Where have you seen that?
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A rather truncated, confusing post.
Do we both agree there are no reports of Liberty ever being challenged by radio?
Second, I have seen NO reports that the torpedo boats tried to signal Liberty. I have seen reports that they immediately continued the attack started by Israeli aircraft. The torpedo boats showed up after Liberty had been attacked from the air and napalmed. The torpedo boats shot, IIRC, 5 torps, scoring one hit.
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I never heard or read of any radio challenges, either. But, I said that it didn't respond to challenges by radio.
Liberty was challenged for identification by signal from the torpedo boats, but both parties' views were obscured by smoke. That would be the time to use the radio to respond.
NSA piece was an interesting read. I think it confirms that it was a series of mistakes and not planned or intentional. You don't think it was intentional, do you?
(Sorry about other post - hit a wrong key somewhere in the middle of typing it. Even the link you posted said that the torpedo boats challenged the Liberty.
And, once again, I said it did not respond to challenges by radio, meaning it did not respond by radio to challenges, not that the challenges were made by radio.)
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Originally posted by Rolex
I never read or heard of any radio challenges either. But, I said it did not respond to challenges by radio.
Liberty was challenged by the torpedo boats but the smoke from the initial aircraft attacks obscured the signaling by both parties. I'm
also from what I've read there was a miscommunication between the captain and crew and the liberty opened up on the torpedo boats.
from wikipedia: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident)
About twenty minutes after the aircraft attack, the ship was approached by three torpedo boats bearing Israeli flags and identification signs. Initially, McGonagle, who perceived that the torpedo boats "were approaching the ship in a torpedo launch attitude,"[1] ordered a machine gun to engage the boats. After recognizing the Israeli standard and seeing apparent Morse code signalling attempts by one of the boats (but being unable to see what was being sent, due to the smoke of the fire started by the earlier aircraft attack), McGonagle gave the order to cease fire. This order was apparently misunderstood in the confusion, and two heavy machine guns opened fire. Subsequently, the Israeli boats responded with fire and launched at least two torpedoes at Liberty (five according to the 1982 IDF History Department report). One hit Liberty on the starboard side forward of the superstructure, creating a large hole in what had been a former cargo hold converted to the ships research spaces, causing the majority of the casualties in the incident. The torpedo boats approached Liberty and strafed crewmen (including damage control parties and sailors preparing life rafts for launch) on deck.
I am by no means and expert nore claim to be. The events are somewhat confusing but I have yet to read a substantial argument as to why or if the Isralis attacked it on purpose. I don't see the motive behind it either. Again i'm not saying that they did or didn't cause I don't know, I just see alot of speculation in one camp and no real evidence or proof.
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Ah, I think what you are saying is that it was procedure not to respond to challenges by radio? I'm sure that's true; recon aviation was the same way.
I missed the attempted communication by the boats; I'll have to reread that.
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Yes, there it is.
Still doesn't explain the air attack though. There are the reports of the traffic between the pilot(s) and HQ id'ing Liberty as American with these reports being ignored.
I think I'll go with Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Thomas Moorer. It's very hard for me to accept that this was a simple mistake.
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I still think it was not intentional. Liberty was put into a dangerous location in the middle of a real war and fast moving events with only a few 50 cal. machines guns. I think that overshadows any second guessing about the actions of the captain and crew. I don't blame them.
The initial air attack was cavalier and started the escalating chain of mistakes.
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Had Liberty been more heavily armed it probably would only have served to convince the Israelis that she was the one shelling the troops ashore.
Generally recon is an unarmed occupation. Don't know why but that's pretty much how it was throughout the Cold War and it still continues.