Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Nilsen on July 30, 2006, 04:29:21 AM
-
Massive ritots in Beriut after Israel has killed over 40 civilians in airstrike.
Even the US has had enough now it seems.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5228224.stm
-
hope they can sort this mess out before it get's really ugly !
-
conflicting reports now about what rice has said.
watching bbc news now as demonstrators are attacking th UN building
-
Originally posted by expat
hope they can sort this mess out before it get's really ugly !
Israel started this large attack knowing what they do,
they have everything under control...at least thats what
they saying on TV. So no panic!
...i have to clean the pool now.
-
Yep Israel did start this knowing what they are doing , but if this carries on the more chance there is of the rest of the arab world joining in , and while i think that the Israeli military is one of the best in the world i cant help but feel that this will be a nightmare for the whole gulf region .
-
..sow the wind reap the whirlwind..
-
Originally posted by expat
hope they can sort this mess out before it get's really ugly !
Its already really ugly
Interesting Tactic
Drop leaflets warning of the impended bombing saying to get out.
(keeps world opinion happy)
and bombing the roads so they cant
-
Originally posted by expat
Yep Israel did start this knowing what they are doing , but if this carries on the more chance there is of the rest of the arab world joining in , and while i think that the Israeli military is one of the best in the world i cant help but feel that this will be a nightmare for the whole gulf region .
Exactly what I think Hezbollah was counting on to begin with.
Now also take int account we have a religeous nut in the whitehouse who is just kooky enough to decide its him to fulfill prophecies. And that nightmare gets even larger.
Seagoon,(if your around) Doesnt it say something about a false prophet comming around first?
-
Hezbollah has said they did not expect this strong a reaction, stupid, this what happens when you poke a tiger with a stick, the tiger eats you.
-
Originally posted by Nilsen
Massive ritots in Beriut after Israel has killed over 40 civilians in airstrike.http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5228224.stm
You didn't mention that it is reported that more than half of the 40 killed were children. Just add this to the growing long list of Israeli attrocities
-
Originally posted by john9001
Hezbollah has said they did not expect this strong a reaction, stupid, this what happens when you poke a tiger with a stick, the tiger eats you.
Yes.. and the tiger eats anyone else nearby too
-
Originally posted by xrtoronto
You didn't mention that it is reported that more than half of the 40 killed were children. Just add this to the growing long list of Israeli attrocities
Remember, Its only an atrocity if its done against the Isrealies.
-
in related news , 78 people have been murdered in New Orleans so far this year.
-
Originally posted by john9001
in related news , 78 people have been murdered in New Orleans so far this year.
You support their murderers too?
-
Soo... now the BBC might have gotten it wrong?
lazs
-
Originally posted by xrtoronto
You didn't mention that it is reported that more than half of the 40 killed were children. Just add this to the growing long list of Israeli attrocities
Yup and add this the growing list of hezbollah attrocities of firing from a heavily populated civilian area.
-
guess Israel is just supose to sit there and take it ...
the sooner the rest of the arabs get into the mix, the sooner the entire mess can be dealt with once and for all ..
does anyone really think there is a peaceful solution to a hatred that has gone on for so long? It is the same ignorance that has been there since the beginning of time, the only thing that has changed are the tools for death each side can use against the other
-
Originally posted by lazs2
Soo... now the BBC might have gotten it wrong?
lazs
Wouldn't be the first time...
A few weeks ago they almost spooged all over the place when they reported a rumor that Hamas was going to recognize Israel. Made front page listing on their online web site.. To bad it only lasted half a day, before Hamas set them straight... LOL
-
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Remember, Its only an atrocity if its done against the Isrealies.
:aok Sad to say but most feel that way on this board.
-
Originally posted by Nilsen
Yes.. and the tiger eats anyone else nearby too
Especially when you're a chicken**** and hide in a heavily populated area.
-
What's more sad is the a lot seem to be unable to distinguish the causitive factor in all the deaths. Or, if they can, they give the people who caused the problem a free pass.
-
Originally posted by Toad
What's more sad is the a lot seem to be unable to distinguish the causitive factor in all the deaths. Or, if they can, they give the people who caused the problem a free pass.
Toad, how many times have you been told you cannot use common sense here? This is the O'Club for crying out loud.
-
"Dear Kofi Annan,
Whenever I order my minions to shoot missiles at Israeli cities, those mean old Israelis shoot back!
The nerve of those guys!
I have taken to launching my rockets and missiles from amongst populated areas, thinking the Israelis wouldn't dare strike me there but those bassages STILL shoot back and kill my loyal freedom fighters!
Can you suggest a better place for me to set up my rocket launchers so the Israelis won't shoot back?
I was thinking on using the rooftops of clearly marked hospitals. What do you think?
Thanks,
Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah
Dear Has,
Israelis.... what can you do?
Try the tops of hospitals, it just might work for you.
Good luck,
Kofi"
-
Soo how many rockets have the hez-ebola fired at jewish civilians at this point with the sole purpose of killing civilians?
How much has the state of lebenon done to stop them?
and.... How would you take out rocket launchers in a country that allowed them to exist in the heart of their civilian population?
seriously... how would you guys do it?
What is funny is that the Israelis have the upper hand here because they are right... A cease fire would have to mean that some multi national force would go in and nut hez-ebola...
The jews would easily stop agression from their side... not force would need to be stationed in Israel. The cease fire would mean that the hez-ebola would be hunted down by an international force... they would probly still act like terrorists and cause the world to realize (admit) it.
lazs
-
Originally posted by Toad
What's more sad is the a lot seem to be unable to distinguish the causitive factor in all the deaths. Or, if they can, they give the people who caused the problem a free pass.
Well if we want to go to the cause of all of this maybe we should remember a phrase the Israelis used to use:
"A land without people for people without a land" I guess we forgot to tell them there were people there.
-
Do you think they should return the land given to them by the UN in 1948?
Yeah, Israel was wrong to colonize land taken in wartime operations.
However, Olmert's government has been withdrawing, albeit slowly, or hadn't you noticed?
But their withdrawals haven't stopped the violence from the other side, now has it?
-
number dead in this attack is now 57...34 of them children
-
Boy, I really, really wish Hezbollah hadn't launched more than 1,000 rockets into Israeli territory in the last couple of weeks.
Don't you?
-
Originally posted by Toad
Do you think they should return the land given to them by the UN in 1948?
Yeah, Israel was wrong to colonize land taken in wartime operations.
However, Olmert's government has been withdrawing, albeit slowly, or hadn't you noticed?
But their withdrawals haven't stopped the violence from the other side, now has it?
I agree they gave some of it back but not all of it and the fact that they didn't stop the targeted killings even during the cease fire shows that neither side wants peace. No matter what anyone says they are both at fault for the current situation. Just because the American press doesn't report on it doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Edit: I dont' think it was the creation of the state that caused the problems it was the thinking of people like Israel Zangwill who said “We must be prepared either to drive out by the sword the [Arab] tribes in possession as our forefathers did or to grapple with the problem of a large alien population”. Could you image the horrors of having a state without one race? It's just unthinkable!!!
-
So you don't think they should target people who kill Israeli citizens?
-
Originally posted by Toad
So you don't think they should target people who kill Israeli citizens?
During a CEASE FIRE? No i don't. Maybe you don't understand what a cease fire is. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to stick up for what the arabs are doing but we need to think of the cause instead of the reaction. Think of a infection in your body, do you treat the cold sweats and fever or the infection itself?
-
Lol, I think maybe Hamas doesn't understand what a ceasefire is.
Please show me one "targeted killing" that was not in response to a ceasefire violation by the Palestinian side.
There is cause and effect. The cause is Hamas/Hezbollah striking Israel and the effect is the Israelis strike back.
Face facts: the best chance for peace in Gaza has been totally thrown away by the Hamas militants.
-
Originally posted by parker00
Edit: I dont' think it was the creation of the state that caused the problems
Then you are not a student of history.
The armies of the Arab states attacked Israel immediately after May 15, 1948, the date the British withdrew and the State of Israel was proclaimed.
I think the creation of the state caused problems that haven't stopped since.
-
Originally posted by Nilsen
conflicting reports now about what rice has said.
watching bbc news now as demonstrators are attacking th UN building
At least they're attacking the ones most responsible for their current situation. :aok
-
Originally posted by Toad
Then you are not a student of history.
The armies of the Arab states attacked Israel immediately after May 15, 1948, the date the British withdrew and the State of Israel was proclaimed.
I think the creation of the state caused problems that haven't stopped since.
I guess you only like to pick and choose parts of history, this began way before 1948, the statement above was said around 1904 so I guess they were looking to take the land BEFORE the state of Israel was created. You need to look at the entire timeline and not just what the media talkes about.
-
Originally posted by parker00
During a CEASE FIRE? No i don't. Maybe you don't understand what a cease fire is. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to stick up for what the arabs are doing but we need to think of the cause instead of the reaction. Think of a infection in your body, do you treat the cold sweats and fever or the infection itself?
There can only be a cease fire if all parties in the conflict agree. You can't impose a cease fire on anyone.
-
Originally posted by xrtoronto
number dead in this attack is now 57...34 of them children
Exactly what path are you going down here?
Would it be ok if we saw reports of the ramdom rocket attacks killing 57 people? Would that make it "fair" or "ok" in your mind?
While it is a tragedy, the fact the the Hez chooses to fire their rockets from civilian area is the real tragedy.
I ask you again, what exactly would you have Isreal do? Sit back and take the rocket attacks? Just suck it up? Where are the warnings from Hez that they are about to fire rockets at an area? (Oh wait, they have no idea where their rockets will hit)
Isreal is doing what needs to be done. Plain and simple. It is unfortunate that the Hez are a bunch of chicken****s that resort to using the civilian population as a shield to launch their attacks. The real "bad guys" here are the Hez and the Lebanese gov for not taking care of Hez themselves.
-
Originally posted by parker00
I guess you only like to pick and choose parts of history, this began way before 1948, the statement above was said around 1904 so I guess they were looking to take the land BEFORE the state of Israel was created. You need to look at the entire timeline and not just what the media talkes about.
Oh, well then we better take a look at the whole timeline.
Joshua 11:23
So Joshua took the whole land, according to all that Yahweh spoke to Moses; and Joshua gave it for an inheritance to Israel according to their divisions by their tribes. The land had rest from war.
You can dwell on the past, that's OK. Afterall, it's what the Palestinians, Hamas and Hezbollah are doing. It pretty much guarantees repetition of the past but they appear to be OK with that.
Or, one can look to the future. The best chance in the last two decades for peace in Palestine is/was the beginning of the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza and the West Bank. Certainly not a perfect solution; they need to get all the way back to their appointed 1948 borders, the ones the sainted UN set for them.
That path at least holds a shred of hope for eventual peace.
The present path of Hamas/Hezbollah is the path to the past, the path to continual war.
All hail Hamas/Heabollah. [/sarcasm]
-
This crap has been going on with these people in one form or another since 1948, why keep delaying the inevitable.
Get it over with once and for all.
-
I'm sick of Hezbollah.
I'm tired of Hamas.
I'm sick of Iraq and Iran.
You can have Saudi Arabia.
I've had it with Israel.
Ship it to South America.
I'm sick of Al Qaeda
and tired of the Taliban.
I'm tired of Tony Blair.
I'm tired of George Bush.
I'm tired of Katrina
and Hillary too.
I'm sick of CNN, Fox
and the BBC.
I've had enough of reality TV,
give me entertainment.
I'm tired of talking heads.
I'm sick of brainless talkers.
-
Originally posted by Rolex
I've had enough of reality TV,
even Big Brother season 7?
but what about Janelle?
(http://www.teamkaysar.com/images/janelle-big-brother-6.jpg)
-
This might be why Israel attacked:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14100258/?GT1=8307
Israel: Hezbollah used village as base
Israeli said it targeted Qana because it was a base for hundreds of rockets launched at Israeli, including 40 that injured five Israelis on Sunday. Israel said it had warned civilians several days before to leave the village.
“One must understand the Hezbollah is using their own civilian population as human shields,” said Israeli Foreign Ministry official Gideon Meir. “The Israeli defense forces dropped leaflets and warned the civilian population to leave the place because the Hezbollah turned it into a war zone.”
Again, Israel warns civilians of an impending attack. Civilians dont leave. Civilians die. Did Hezbollah prevent the civilians from leaving again as they have done in other places? We dont know that yet, but if they did......arent they to blame for putting the civilians in danger?
Hezbollah attacks from just outside UN posts, they attack from civilian population centers. I blame Hezbollah for the deaths of UN soldiers and civilians.
You didn't mention that it is reported that more than half of the 40 killed were children. Just add this to the growing long list of Israeli attrocities
Imo, the atrocity happened when Hezbollah fired it's rockets from inside a village full of civilians knowing full well that they were putting those civilians at a HUGE risk.
-
Originally posted by Toad
Oh, well then we better take a look at the whole timeline.
You can dwell on the past, that's OK. Afterall, it's what the Palestinians, Hamas and Hezbollah are doing. It pretty much guarantees repetition of the past but they appear to be OK with that.
Or, one can look to the future. The best chance in the last two decades for peace in Palestine is/was the beginning of the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza and the West Bank. Certainly not a perfect solution; they need to get all the way back to their appointed 1948 borders, the ones the sainted UN set for them.
That path at least holds a shred of hope for eventual peace.
The present path of Hamas/Hezbollah is the path to the past, the path to continual war.
All hail Hamas/Heabollah. [/sarcasm]
It actually goes back a bit further than that Toad, back to the time of Abraham when God told Abraham to settle in the land of Canaan.
-
Originally posted by Toad
Oh, well then we better take a look at the whole timeline.
You can dwell on the past, that's OK. Afterall, it's what the Palestinians, Hamas and Hezbollah are doing. It pretty much guarantees repetition of the past but they appear to be OK with that.
Or, one can look to the future. The best chance in the last two decades for peace in Palestine is/was the beginning of the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza and the West Bank. Certainly not a perfect solution; they need to get all the way back to their appointed 1948 borders, the ones the sainted UN set for them.
That path at least holds a shred of hope for eventual peace.
The present path of Hamas/Hezbollah is the path to the past, the path to continual war.
All hail Hamas/Heabollah. [/sarcasm]
Well I think everyone seems to live in the past so that's not much of an argument to me. When neither side will admit to the crimes they have done in the past then how can either side have some type of closure and move on? Israel may of been withdrawing from two areas but they were reinforcing others. Still building a wall through occupied land says you don't plan on leaving it anytime soon. You want a wall, fine build it on you side of the border. Again you keep pointing to one side as being right in this and that is the point of my disagreement as I feel both sides are to blame and neither is more to blame then the other.
I think the present path of Hamas/Hezhollah AND Israel is the path to the past, the path to continual war.
-
Originally posted by Elfie
It actually goes back a bit further than that Toad, back to the time of Abraham when God told Abraham to settle in the land of Canaan.
Any proof of what you say? I don't see how you could though as religion is based completely on faith.
-
Originally posted by parker00
Any proof of what you say? I don't see how you could though as religion is based completely on faith.
Genesis chapter 12.
-
Originally posted by Elfie
Genesis chapter 12.
Like I said, that is all based on faith. I don't know if any of that is true or not but I do know for a fact that all sides are to blame for the current situation in the middle east.
-
Originally posted by parker00
:aok Sad to say but most feel that way on this board.
I know.
Thing is both sides are guilty of the same thing
the killing of (insert any number here) innocents by one side doesnt justify the killing of (insert an larger number here) innocents on the other side.
Each side plays tit-for-tat
I am neither for nor against either side. As I have longtime maintained.
But I beleive
What were are seeing is a deadly tempertantrum being thrown by both sides.
I know only 2 possible solutions.
But. Nobody will like either of them.
First is to treat both sides like the brats they are acting like
(he hit me first,- no HE did)
What does it matter who did what to who first anymore?
Point is its got to stop
Some years ago my son and his cousin got into a fight. My wife, my sister in law kept yelling at them and talking to them and asking them to stop to no avail.
Much like countries around the world keep trying to get this nonsense to stop
Finally I got tired of watching them playing these games with the kids and I solved the situation quickly and effectivly.
I grabbed them both and clunked their heads together. Telling them "I dont care who started it. Now your both going to stop it."
Same solution here. Be-otch slap both sides and tell em to knock it off
But nobody is going to like that.
Other solution is to Forget having Isreal in its current form but rather have the area in a shared and equal power. No soley "Jewish or Muslam State" But shared equally. One Government Ruled by two seperate but equal powers.
Then each can claim they "rule the holy land" (old eyeroll thingie)
Its going to have to come to that eventually anyway.
There is one other solution. More in line with the first one.
If the two children cant play together nice in the sandbox.
Then perhaps neither should be allowed to play there at all.
POOF!
Problem solved
-
Originally posted by Elfie
This might be why Israel attacked:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14100258/?GT1=8307
Again, Israel warns civilians of an impending attack. Civilians dont leave. Civilians die. Did Hezbollah prevent the civilians from leaving again as they have done in other places? We dont know that yet, but if they did......arent they to blame for putting the civilians in danger?
Hezbollah attacks from just outside UN posts, they attack from civilian population centers. I blame Hezbollah for the deaths of UN soldiers and civilians.
Imo, the atrocity happened when Hezbollah fired it's rockets from inside a village full of civilians knowing full well that they were putting those civilians at a HUGE risk.
Thing is the Isreali forces are also bombing the roads and are refusing to guarantee safe passage for people trying to flee.
So what are the people to do?
do they stay and run the risk of being bombed? or leave and run the risk of being bombed?
Seems to me they are damned if they do and damned if they dont.
If you are goignt o drop leaflets warning people to get out.
then you should at least have the honor to let them leave safely.
Otherwise you might just as well not drop the leaflets and bomb them anyway.
The leaflet thing it just to keep world opinion happy and so they can claim they warned them
Propoganda and nothing more
-
Originally posted by john9001
in related news , 78 people have been murdered in New Orleans so far this year.
That's drug scum killing drug scum. Its comparable to the murders in organized crime families. You're not going to end it with police or military. The only way to end it its to kill (or put away) those exact people who are being killed, because, yup, they're also the ones doing the killing.
-
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Thing is the Isreali forces are also bombing the roads and are refusing to guarantee safe passage for people trying to flee.
So what are the people to do?
do they stay and run the risk of being bombed? or leave and run the risk of being bombed?
Seems to me they are damned if they do and damned if they dont.
If you are goignt o drop leaflets warning people to get out.
then you should at least have the honor to let them leave safely.
Otherwise you might just as well not drop the leaflets and bomb them anyway.
The leaflet thing it just to keep world opinion happy and so they can claim they warned them
Propoganda and nothing more
And the leaflets Hezbollah dropped said what?
-
Originally posted by Donzo
And the leaflets Hezbollah dropped said what?
"Bang"
As I said before. The killing of "X" numbert of innocents one one side does not justify the killing of "XX" number of innocents on the other.
Dropping leaflets to get out. then bombing the roads does not place anyone on any higher moral ground then if they had dropped non at all
-
Originally posted by parker00
Israel may of been withdrawing from two areas but they were reinforcing others.
Simple question for you:
Do you think the withdrawal of Israel from Gaza was a step forward for peace in the region or a step back towards war? (Skip the part about it being "not enough"; I already know you think that.)
-
What kind of perverted logic says "we know there were civilians there but pulled the trigger anyway coz we want to kill the Hezbollah - it's Hezbollahs fault coz they were hiding in civilians"
So when Chechens took the school actually what should have happened is the Russians should have just flattened the school to kill the terrorists and that would have been ok because it was the terrorists fault the children were there.
I would like to see what would happen if Hezbollah got a rocket launcher across the border, took a village hostage and fired it - would the IDF bomb their own in order to kill Hezbollah terrorists - I think not.
And other say "they were given warning to move and didn't - it's their own fault". What about those who can't travel ? And as Drediock said Interesting Tactic
Drop leaflets warning of the impended bombing saying to get out.
(keeps world opinion happy)
and bombing the roads so they cant
They could always tape the leaflet to the bomb and save a flight ...
Just because we are fighting animals does not mean we have to behave the same way.
-
Originally posted by Sparks
I would like to see what would happen if Hezbollah got a rocket launcher across the border, took a village hostage and fired it - would the IDF bomb their own in order to kill Hezbollah terrorists - I think not.
I'd think you'd find the citizens of the Israeli village fighting tooth and nail against Hez until IDF showed up to finish the job.
Just a guess.
Here's another guess. I'd guess that if Lebanon's armed forces were in the area actively pursuing and attacking Hez forces that were shooting rockets into Israel then the IDF would probably not be bombing Lebanon.
It's a true mess but the blame goes to Hez; they started this thing and endangered the citizens of Lebanon. The Israelis are miscalculating though; they're losing more support every time they have incidents like the latest one.
I suspect this will draw to a close sooner rather than later.
-
The question about the activity of the Lebanese army is a valid one Toad but to be honest no-one has shown me any evidence that there actually is a viable Lebanese army. The country is new and untill very recently the armed security force was the Syrians. My guess (and it is a guess no more) is that the Lebanese army does not have the capacity to fight Hezbollah.
I have another question about the targeting of buildings. The aim is supposedly the rocket launchers ? look here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fajr-3) They aren't exactly small. We are not talking about shoulder mounted stuff fired out of building windows and doorways. These things are big and take time to set up. The IDF really can't tell the difference between a convoy of cars and one of these ?? They think a truck is parked in a block of flats ?? They can't see an 18 tonne flatbed with rockets on rumbling down the road ??
-
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Thing is the Isreali forces are also bombing the roads and are refusing to guarantee safe passage for people trying to flee.
So what are the people to do?
do they stay and run the risk of being bombed? or leave and run the risk of being bombed?
Seems to me they are damned if they do and damned if they dont.
If you are goignt o drop leaflets warning people to get out.
then you should at least have the honor to let them leave safely.
Otherwise you might just as well not drop the leaflets and bomb them anyway.
The leaflet thing it just to keep world opinion happy and so they can claim they warned them
Propoganda and nothing more
Why are the Israelis bombing the roads and other infrastructure? To make things harder on Hezbollah. (Side effect is, civilians are affected by this as well.) Roads arent the only way to travel. You can walk beside it, or take off cross country as well. Barring interference from Hezbollah, if those civilians wanted out, they would find a way to get out.
If Israel guaranteed safe passage down the roads, Hezbollah would set up their rocket launchers on the roads.
-
I have another question about the targeting of buildings. The aim is supposedly the rocket launchers ? look here They aren't exactly small. We are not talking about shoulder mounted stuff fired out of building windows and doorways. These things are big and take time to set up. The IDF really can't tell the difference between a convoy of cars and one of these ?? They think a truck is parked in a block of flats ?? They can't see an 18 tonne flatbed with rockets on rumbling down the road ??
Sparks with the information we have so far. I think those rocket launchers are being parked next to civilian buildings. When ordinance lands in the area (targeted on the launchers) not only are the launchers taking damage but collateral damage is happening as well. ie....damage to homes, buisinesses, civilians etc.
Sparks I just dont know what else we can expect from the Israelis. Are they suppossed to just sit there and absorb rocket attacks forever? How long were they absorbing attacks before they responded?
Hezbollah sees this as a win win situation for them. If Israel does nothing, they can point to how weak the Israelis are. If Israel responds, they attack from areas they know innocents will die when the reprisals come.
Imo, Israel HAS to do something. The UN, Lebanon and the International community has been ineffective in stopping the attacks on Israel.
On the subject of the Lebanese army not being capable of patrolling thier side of the border and keeping it clear of Hezbollah, maybe the international community could train and arm the Lebanese army until the Lebanese can take care of this itself.
-
What kind of perverted logic says "we know there were civilians there but pulled the trigger anyway coz we want to kill the Hezbollah - it's Hezbollahs fault coz they were hiding in civilians"
Sparks I think it comes down to this. Israel has been the target of repeated rocket attacks by Hezbollah. I think we can agree that this HAS to stop. The Lebanese are either incapable or unwilling (maybe both) to put a stop to it themselves.
So what is Israel to do? Israel is doing what she has to do to stop Hezbollah. Unfortunately that means that innocents are dying as well. I am not happy about innocents dying on either side.
I do try to look at the whole picture and look to see why Israel hits the targets that she does. The same applies to Hezbollah. Hezbollah hits any target that has Jews. The Israelis hit targets that Hezbollah is firing from. Hezbollah's primary intent is to kill Jews, regardless of whether or not they are civilian or military. Israel's primary objective is to kill Hezbollah and civilians and UN observers are an unfortunate and tragic side effect of Hezbollah using civilians and UN observation posts as human shields.
I think that using civilians and UN observers as *human shields* is a completely cowardly and evil tactic.
*edit* whoops, forgot this part.
Sparks, I have thought long and hard about this. If I was the one making the descions for Israel. I too would attack Hezbollah regardless of where they set up their launchers. I would do what it takes to protect my countrymen from future attacks.
Sparks, if you warned me my home was about to be bombed and I stayed their anyways and died in the attack. Dying would be my own fault because I had been warned ahead of time and chose to ignore it. Granted in southern Lebanon some folks are being prevented from leaving by Hezbollah. I have seen at least one report of Hezbollah murdering a man that tryed to leave a village after the Israeli's dropped leaflets warning civilians to leave. In those cases, I blame Hezbollah for the civilian deaths, not the IDF.
-
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
"Bang"
As I said before. The killing of "X" numbert of innocents one one side does not justify the killing of "XX" number of innocents on the other.
Dropping leaflets to get out. then bombing the roads does not place anyone on any higher moral ground then if they had dropped non at all
So, what would YOU have Isreal do?
Pretty much accurate bombing, leaflet dropping country 1
Ramdom rocket firing, no leaflet dropping, civilian shield using country 0
-
If israelis were serbs, the Chinese embassy in Tel-Aviv would be rubble by now.
-
The Israelis are miscalculating though; they're losing more support every time they have incidents like the latest one.
I dont think they miscalculated at all. Israel and the IDF have made the harsh choices knowing full well the the outcry that would follow civilian deaths. Those harsh choices are what will (hopefully) make Israeli citizens safer in the future.
I agree with the rest of your post, spot on imo.
-
Originally posted by Sparks
The question about the activity of the Lebanese army is a valid one Toad but to be honest no-one has shown me any evidence that there actually is a viable Lebanese army. .
[/b]
Well, they think they have an army. It's about 70,000 strong.
http://www.lebarmy.gov.lb/English/GroundForce.asp
Ground forces
5 Regional Commands
11 Mechanized brigades
1 Republican Guard brigade
1 Commando regiment
5 Special Forces regiments
1 Airborne regiment
1 Navy Commando regiment
2 Artillery regiments
We are not talking about shoulder mounted stuff fired out of building windows and doorways. These things are big and take time to set up.
They mostly have been using Katyusha rockets. These can be fired from truck mounted batteries, small ground batteries or even singly from a pipe or rail. They only take minutes to set up. Check out the 6 rail Romanian launcher in front of the truck mounted battery.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:APR-40-beyt-hatotchan-2.jpg
More on Hez rockets
Hizbollah's Iranian Rocket Force (http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htart/articles/20060718.aspx)
-
Interesting Toad, thanks :aok
Interesting in the mission statement they are both anti-terrorist and anti-Israel. So now they have a three way battle if they choose to get involved. Certainly the Lebanese army at this point have not carried out their stated aim. Although I still don't think they are a functional fighting force capable of taking on the IDF they certainly should have been more in control in the south of their own country.
Looking at the rockets - even the 6 rail one is no small peice of hardware. Not stuff you would be setting up in buildings or transporting in cars.
Looking at the figures quoted they say they believe Iran shipped 10,000 of these pigs to hezbollah !! Where the F*** do you hide 10,000 9ft X 8in rockets ??:huh Under the bed ??????
Elfie, I understand what you are saying but I will never accept that it is right to pull the trigger knowing you will kill innocents when other options exist. We CANNOT justify our behaviour by using the behaviour of barbaric stone-age maniacs as the measuring stick. Certainly if we knew in a building was a terrorist with his finger on the trigger of a nuke that would kill hundreds of thousands and we knew civilians would be killed in the process of stopping it well war always has it's costs in lives. But his isn't the case. My point about the inaccuracy of the Hezbollah rockets is that Israel is not in immenent danger of large scale destruction.
To say the risk of one Israeli life lost justifies the loss of hundreds of Lebanese lives is ranking our lives higher than theirs and to me a civilian is a civilian in both countries. We should not discriminate or lessen the loss of either and we should look to limit the loss of both.
Yes the loss of Israeli lives HAS to stop. But the price should not be the loss of hundreds of Arab lives and we should not try to justify our actions and lessen the value of innocent Lebanese civilians by saying it's Hezbollah fault. It doesn't matter whose fault it is that they are in the line of fire; when you pull the trigger that will kill them you should view them same as if they were your own countrymen and if you wouldn't kill your own then you shouldn't pull the trigger. A civilian is just that - they are the same as you and I.
-
Sparks, I think a single Katyusha can be fired from a simple rail or pipe. Read somewhere that it only takes a few minutes to set up. Fire and forget, leave the rail/pipe and beat feet.
I doubt they'll ever stop all of those if that is true.
-
Originally posted by Sparks
Elfie, I understand what you are saying but I will never accept that it is right to pull the trigger knowing you will kill innocents when other options exist. We CANNOT justify our behaviour by using the behaviour of barbaric stone-age maniacs as the measuring stick. Certainly if we knew in a building was a terrorist with his finger on the trigger of a nuke that would kill hundreds of thousands and we knew civilians would be killed in the process of stopping it well war always has it's costs in lives. But his isn't the case. My point about the inaccuracy of the Hezbollah rockets is that Israel is not in immenent danger of large scale destruction.
To say the risk of one Israeli life lost justifies the loss of hundreds of Lebanese lives is ranking our lives higher than theirs and to me a civilian is a civilian in both countries. We should not discriminate or lessen the loss of either and we should look to limit the loss of both.
Yes the loss of Israeli lives HAS to stop. But the price should not be the loss of hundreds of Arab lives and we should not try to justify our actions and lessen the value of innocent Lebanese civilians by saying it's Hezbollah fault. It doesn't matter whose fault it is that they are in the line of fire; when you pull the trigger that will kill them you should view them same as if they were your own countrymen and if you wouldn't kill your own then you shouldn't pull the trigger. A civilian is just that - they are the same as you and I.
This seems to be a running theme in threads about this topic.
So I ask you, what would you have Israel do about the situation?
Sit back and accept that SOME of their people will be maimed or killed by rockets?
Sit back and hope that the UN drafts a resolution telling Hez to stop? (Oh, this should work)
Or maybe they should bomb open fields?
Or how about the just nuke themselves? That should end the violence. Honestly, crying about the civilians that are caught in the crossfire (and they are "caught" because Hez wants them "caught" in the crossfire) does nothing.
Try offering a solution. What should Israel do?
While understand your points about civilians being needlessly killed, I also understand that Israel doesn't have many options in this situation.
Throughout history they have done what was asked of them and what has it gotten them? I'll tell you, nutcases like Hez that are hellbent on the destruction of Israel right on their border.
-
Donzo - read back through the thread. I have already stated that my thought on the best option is a large scale special forces multinational operation with full remit to engage with full force.
The problem with your attitude is you put the value of the life of an innocent Israeli civilian above the life of an innocent arab civilian. i.e It's ok for innocent arabs to die if it stops innocent Israelis dying. Funnily enough your average middle class arab thinks that is a tad racist.
But the un-spoken view of course is that there is no such thing as an innocent arab .....
Anyway - I have to go to work.
-
Originally posted by Donzo
This seems to be a running theme in threads about this topic.
So I ask you, what would you have Israel do about the situation?
Sit back and accept that SOME of their people will be maimed or killed by rockets?
Sit back and hope that the UN drafts a resolution telling Hez to stop? (Oh, this should work)
Or maybe they should bomb open fields?
Or how about the just nuke themselves? That should end the violence. Honestly, crying about the civilians that are caught in the crossfire (and they are "caught" because Hez wants them "caught" in the crossfire) does nothing.
Try offering a solution. What should Israel do?
While understand your points about civilians being needlessly killed, I also understand that Israel doesn't have many options in this situation.
Throughout history they have done what was asked of them and what has it gotten them? I'll tell you, nutcases like Hez that are hellbent on the destruction of Israel right on their border.
Its wrong that civilians (babies) are being killed but where did we jump to blaming the wrong people? Hezbollah declared war on Israel, started attacking Israel and then placed innocent people in front of them as shields. In their deficient mind, this is an Israeli atrocity. In a thinking mind, its a stupid jailhouse shell game with Hezbollah being the stupid inmate that thinks its a genius. Hezbollah has perpetrated this atrocity, by putting its weapons behind civilians and then declaring war (in a cowardly fashion). Without even considering its atrocities in the 1980's, this is enough to make any westerner wish to see Hezbollah *completely* destroyed.
-
Originally posted by BTW
Its wrong that civilians (babies) are being killed but where did we jump to blaming the wrong people? Hezbollah declared war on Israel, started attacking Israel and then placed innocent people in front of them as shields. In their deficient mind, this is an Israeli atrocity. In a thinking mind, its a stupid jailhouse shell game with Hezbollah being the stupid inmate that thinks its a genius. Hezbollah has perpetrated this atrocity, by putting its weapons behind civilians and then declaring war (in a cowardly fashion). Without even considering its atrocities in the 1980's, this is enough to make any westerner wish to see Hezbollah *completely* destroyed.
I'm not blaming the wrong people.
Hezbollah is responsible for ALL of this, plain and simple.
I am in total agreement with eveything you said.
-
Originally posted by Sparks
Donzo - read back through the thread. I have already stated that my thought on the best option is a large scale special forces multinational operation with full remit to engage with full force.
The problem with your attitude is you put the value of the life of an innocent Israeli civilian above the life of an innocent arab civilian. i.e It's ok for innocent arabs to die if it stops innocent Israelis dying. Funnily enough your average middle class arab thinks that is a tad racist.
But the un-spoken view of course is that there is no such thing as an innocent arab .....
Anyway - I have to go to work.
Let's do some "crazy-mix'em-ups":
You implied I was advocating:
It's ok for innocent arabs to die if it stops innocent Israelis dying.
How about this:
It's ok for innocent Israelis to die if it stops innocent arabs dying.
Or how about:
It's ok for innocent Israelis to die because they are are Israelis.
Sound about right? You advocate nothing less.
-
Originally posted by Sparks
The question about the activity of the Lebanese army is a valid one Toad but to be honest no-one has shown me any evidence that there actually is a viable Lebanese army. The country is new and untill very recently the armed security force was the Syrians. My guess (and it is a guess no more) is that the Lebanese army does not have the capacity to fight Hezbollah.
They have an army.
Problem is there are supporters of Hezbollah within it.
But remember this is close to being a brand new government in this country
And the Lebanese government is afraid that should they try to move against Hezbollah at this time it would trigger another civil war.
which wouldnt be good for the region either
Now one might think that in a sence Isreal is doing the Lebanese govermentas well as themselves a favor by going after Hezbollah.
And if they were killing off only members of Hezbolla, they might be.
Problem is with these kind of attacks and This kind of collateral damage.
All they are managing to do is create even more supporters of Hezbolla who might not have been otherwise
And you can only say "oops" so many times reguardless of how many leaflets you drop
So, what would YOU have Isreal do?
Pretty much accurate bombing, leaflet dropping country 1
Ramdom rocket firing, no leaflet dropping, civilian shield using country 0
Sorry but I dont buy into these claims of "accurate" bombing with so much collateral damage
What Isreal needs to do if it absolutely has to continue is instead of these blind attacks. And if they are serious about keeping the innocent death toll to a minimum.
Drop a net over the entire area with boots on the ground allowing nothing to escape and if it carries a gun or fights back, kill it.
If it doesnt, let it go.
Yes some innocents will still be unintentionally killed. Such is war.
but it will be far less then the current common Isreali tactic of blowing up and entire building just to kill one or two specific people.
"But what about the innocents Hezbollah kills with its rocket attacks?"
What about them?
Indiscriminate killing, does not justify indiscriminate killing.
If say for example 3 Clan members known to live in an apartment complex in Mobile Alabama lynch 4 blacks in Georgia. Would it be ok if Georgia destroyed the entire apartment complex just to get those 3 clan members?
And if they did, Exactly what would be the reaction of the rest of Mobile be?
Would they be pissed at the 3 Clan members? Or at Georgia for killing their friends and relatives who were not members of the clan or otherwise had nothing to do with the lynchings?
Now instead of getting rid of the e enemies they had. They just created 100 more
-
Oh, I know - sorry if it seemed I was addressing my ire at you. I was just trying to expand on what you said, and what Israel is trying to remind everyone of. The civilian deaths are horrific, just the thing Hezbollah wanted all over the news. Hezbollah has planned and orchestrated these deaths. But I suspect if the demonstrators attacked the Hezbollah buildings, Hezbollah would not hesitate to shoot them in the head. Its much safer for them to vent on a UN building. Hezbollah is a band of murderers.
-
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
If say for example 3 Clan members known to live in an apartment complex in Mobile Alabama lynch 4 blacks in Georgia. Would it be ok if Georgia destroyed the entire apartment complex just to get those 3 clan members?
Were they firing rockets onto blacks from the apartment complex and coldly calculating that no one would touch them because they were surrounded by innocent civilians?
-
Sorry but I dont buy into these claims of "accurate" bombing with so much collateral damage
When Hezbollah sets up next to say....an apartment building, or just outside the fence of a UN observation post......dont you think the collateral damage is going to be significant even with precision guided munitions?
Indiscriminate killing, does not justify indiscriminate killing.
Israel isnt killing indiscriminately. When rockets get launched into Israel, IDF units either fire counterbattery fire or send in airstrikes. Either of those options HAS to be done quickly to catch the Hezbollah people that are firing on Israel. There isnt time to go in and make sure no civilians are in the area. Hence why Israel has been dropping leaflets telling the Lebanese civilians they need to leave. Otoh, in some cases Hezbollah has been preventing civilians from leaving and in at least one instance has murdered a man who tryed to do so.
-
Originally posted by Donzo
Were they firing rockets onto blacks from the apartment complex and coldly calculating that no one would touch them because they were surrounded by innocent civilians?
your missing my entire point.
even then. Would it matter?
-
Originally posted by Elfie
When Hezbollah sets up next to say....an apartment building, or just outside the fence of a UN observation post......dont you think the collateral damage is going to be significant even with precision guided munitions?
Israel isnt killing indiscriminately. When rockets get launched into Israel, IDF units either fire counterbattery fire or send in airstrikes. Either of those options HAS to be done quickly to catch the Hezbollah people that are firing on Israel. There isnt time to go in and make sure no civilians are in the area. Hence why Israel has been dropping leaflets telling the Lebanese civilians they need to leave. Otoh, in some cases Hezbollah has been preventing civilians from leaving and in at least one instance has murdered a man who tryed to do so.
Then you put boots on the ground to avoid that collateral damage.
When you fire rockets into a building looking to kill 3 or 4 people and end up killing dozens. knowing they are there. Thats being pretty indiscrimate if you ask me.
Hezbollah may be stopping some people from leaving but they arent holding the entire populations there
And if you drop leaflets telling people to get out. Then you gotta let them leave safely. You cant have it both ways.
Perhaps setting up roadblocks and checkpoints clearing everyoe looking to get out is the answer.
But you cant tell them to get out. then not allow them to safely leave
If Isreal is serious about stopping the attacks on Isreal. they are going to HAVE to put boots on the ground and root them out building by building room by room and 1 by 1.
This long range warfare isnt going to do it.
Al they are doing is answering butchery with even more butchery. and making even more enemies for themselves in the process
-
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
your missing my entire point.
I didn't miss your point. Hez is firing rockets on Israel. What should Israel do?
-
Originally posted by xrtoronto
number dead in this attack is now 57...34 of them children
Funny, isn't it XRT, that it is now being reported that the building collapsed [SIZE=8]8 ****ING HOURS[/SIZE] after it was hit.
Figure that one out.
-
A ceasefire means an end to hostilities. That includes returning kidnapped soldiers, I think that's what everybody wants.
-
To say the risk of one Israeli life lost justifies the loss of hundreds of Lebanese lives is ranking our lives higher than theirs and to me a civilian is a civilian in both countries. We should not discriminate or lessen the loss of either and we should look to limit the loss of both.
I can agree with that.
Yes the loss of Israeli lives HAS to stop. But the price should not be the loss of hundreds of Arab lives and we should not try to justify our actions and lessen the value of innocent Lebanese civilians by saying it's Hezbollah fault. It doesn't matter whose fault it is that they are in the line of fire; when you pull the trigger that will kill them you should view them same as if they were your own countrymen and if you wouldn't kill your own then you shouldn't pull the trigger. A civilian is just that - they are the same as you and I.
Who started this latest round of violence? Would Israel be attacking if Hezbollah hadnt repeatedly attacked them? I think we can agree that those answers are: Hezbollah and No. Doesnt that make Hezbollah at fault?
I consider Hitler to be at fault for every single Russian, English, French, Polish, American,(and every other nationality that fought in Europe) and even every single German life lost. Why? Because Hitler started that whole mess. Hezbollah started this mess, therefore I blame them for every life lost in this conflict, Lebanese, Israeli or UN oberserver.
Imo, saying Hezbollah is at fault for causing the civilian casualties doesnt lessen the value of Lebanese life. It just places the blame where its due.
Sparks, you just cant tell the military to beat the crap out of someone, then give them impossible ROE. The USA tryed that in Vietnam, I think we all know how that worked out.
As to your suggestion about using a multinational force in Lebanon, I dont think it would work if Western countries sent units. Western units would be viewed as Crusaders imo. Otoh, an all Arab force might be able to do the job.....IF they actually enforced peace with lethal force. I'm not sure how that would work out, Muslims killing Muslims to keep them from attacking Israel..... The only solution for Hezbollah, Hamas and others is the complete destruction of Israel. It's kinda hard to find a counter solution to that. /sigh
I know....it sucks that innocents are paying the ultimate price. I think thats the biggest reason wars suck so bad, the innocent generally get the shortest end of the stick.
-
Originally posted by Donzo
I didn't miss your point. Hez is firing rockets on Israel. What should Israel do?
Read my above post.
-
Originally posted by Suave
A ceasefire means an end to hostilities.
This means no more firing rockets. We shall see if that happens. My bet is that it will not.
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
Funny, isn't it XRT, that it is now being reported that the building collapsed [SIZE=8]8 ****ING HOURS[/SIZE] after it was hit.
Figure that one out.
Whats to figure out?
A weakend structure doesnt have to collapse right away
-
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Read my above post.
I did. And while I agree with there needing to be more troops on the ground to elminiate Hez 1on1, I do not think that this would go over well either.
Headlines:
"Israel hostile occupation of Lebanon frowned upon by world."
There is no easy solution to this. What I find amazing is that Hez surrending is never offered as a solution. Why is that? Why is Israel made out to be the bad guy?
-
Keeping hostages is itself an act of hostility.
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
Funny, isn't it XRT, that it is now being reported that the building collapsed [SIZE=8]8 ****ING HOURS[/SIZE] after it was hit.
Figure that one out.
would you like to express that to the loved ones of the dead? I have no doubt it will make all the difference. (particularily to the 4 month old infant)
-
Then you put boots on the ground to avoid that collateral damage.
I dont think Israel wants to do that again unless they absolutely have to. They tryed that before and ended up occupying southern Lebanon for 18 or so years. You know, back when they beat the snot out of the PLO for the very same reasons they are kickin the daylights out of Hezbollah now.
I also think Israel is trying to show some restraint by NOT putting boots on the ground. That would be an escalation on their part that might draw other Muslim countries into the war.
Hezbollah may be stopping some people from leaving but they arent holding the entire populations there
I dont think there is enough Hezbollah to stop everyone from leaving heh.
And if you drop leaflets telling people to get out. Then you gotta let them leave safely. You cant have it both ways.
I believe Israel has let those people leave. We have the instance of the people from Marwaheen that got killed after they had left the village, gone to a UN base for shelter and were turned down, then sometime after that.....they were killed. What we dont know, is why were their vehicles hit? Was it a mistake? I dont doubt that mistakes have happened. Wrong targets get hit in every war. There are to many things from the Israeli side that we just dont know yet. So much of the information is one sided atm.
Now if I believed that Israel was intentionally and deliberately targetting civilians, I would agree with you. I just dont believe that the IDF is saying things like....Ahhh, here's a Hezbollah launcher next to a building with 57 Lebanese civilians, kill them all!! Just dont see the IDF acting like that, or even remotely close.
-
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Whats to figure out?
A weakend structure doesnt have to collapse right away
Do people need to be inside of a weakend structure? I wouldn't put it past Hez to have forced the people to stay inside the structure...gambling that it would collapse.
-
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Exactly what I think Hezbollah was counting on to begin with.
Now also take int account we have a religeous nut in the whitehouse who is just kooky enough to decide its him to fulfill prophecies. And that nightmare gets even larger.
Seagoon,(if your around) Doesnt it say something about a false prophet comming around first?
Some former CIA dude was on the news with some interesting observations:
The building in question collapsed 7+ hours after it was hit.
Some of the bodies on the news had lividity stains, and no rigor... along with others that had full on rigor... suggesting they died hours apart, not in 1 strike.
Women & children were hit, no young men?
Basically Hezbollah had 7+ hours to stage the scene; collect bodies from where ever & place them inside before knocking the building over themselves.
He also suggested they simply had already full ambulances from near by rally there to make it look much worse.
It wouldn't surprise him, or me, if half the dead had bullet holes in their heads after being forced to stay.
He thinks Israel has seriously hurt Hezbollah, and Hezbollah is looking for a break from F16 strikes and will continue to pile women & children's bodies near places the Israelis strike.
Dead kids and girls always cause a knee-jerk reaction, which is what Hezbollah is counting on.
-
For those advocating a multinational force with clearance to fully engage, get it out of your head.
Probably the last time that happened under the UN aegis was in Korea.
It is simply NOT going to happen in Lebanon. Any country that sent troops to Lebanon with full clearance to engage is going to end up fighting Hezbollah in non-stop engagements. That leads to the rest of the Arabs hating the countries involved. Think "Jihad".
All the countries with enough military capability for such a mission have significantly large muslim populations. As a result there will be no sand, grit or will to get such a job done.
Ain't Gonna Happen. EVER.
So, forget it. Try to think up something else.
-
I expected you guys to pick up on it, but Drediock missing the point entirely is amazing. Did not expect that out of him.
Think to yourselves for a moment. Is Hezbollah nasty enough to force people to stay in a building til it collapses? Is Hezbollah nasty enough to actually stage the entire scene?
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
I expected you guys to pick up on it, but Drediock missing the point entirely is amazing. Did not expect that out of him.
Think to yourselves for a moment. Is Hezbollah nasty enough to force people to stay in a building til it collapses? Is Hezbollah nasty enough to actually stage the entire scene?
Yes and Yes
-
Dred,
Nice option. Your solution to stop hezbollah is to engage in widespread house to house fighting. The boots on the ground strategy.
It sounds nice, in theory, but think how do you kill or remove the hezbollah from inside an apartment bulding? Oh and by the way, they didn't let the occupants leave. What are you going to do now? Don't forget that you will be receiving fire and explosive rounds during this operation.
Do you go in with pistols or do you do what the past experiance of heavy urban warfare has tought, bring down the building by shooting heavy munitions into it?
How many divisions are you going to sacrifice in this operation of trying to go through a fortified city?
Just curious here. You set the standard, how are ya going to do it as "boots on the ground" really isn't a strategy.
-
Originally posted by Maverick
You set the standard, how are ya going to do it as "boots on the ground" really isn't a strategy.
How about in a similar way the US servicemen are on foot in Baghdad? It's a very high cost to pay, but you are doing it.
-
Originally posted by Toad
For those advocating a multinational force with clearance to fully engage, get it out of your head.
Probably the last time that happened under the UN aegis was in Korea.
It is simply NOT going to happen in Lebanon. Any country that sent troops to Lebanon with full clearance to engage is going to end up fighting Hezbollah in non-stop engagements. That leads to the rest of the Arabs hating the countries involved. Think "Jihad".
All the countries with enough military capability for such a mission have significantly large muslim populations. As a result there will be no sand, grit or will to get such a job done.
Ain't Gonna Happen. EVER.
So, forget it. Try to think up something else.
Nope it never will. The only thing the UN is capable of doing is drafting up some do-nothing resolution.
Rwanda, Sudan...Where was/is the UN?
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
Funny, isn't it XRT, that it is now being reported that the building collapsed [SIZE=8]8 ****ING HOURS[/SIZE] after it was hit.
Figure that one out.
Link?
-
Originally posted by xrtoronto
How about in a similar way the US servicemen are on foot in Baghdad? It's a very high cost to pay, but you are doing it.
Not quite toronto. The situation in Baghdad is less fortified than what is going on in Lebanon. There are also fewer forces for a fixed static combat than what hezbollah is reported to be fielding.
-
Originally posted by Elfie
Link?
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3283816,00.html
-
Thanks.
-
To all of you with the wonderful and brilliant solution of "putting boots on the ground", who will be so enlightened as to write up a simply marvelous set of "rules of engagement", to reduce civilian casualties, whilst engaging a group that seeks to maximize civilian casualties (on BOTH sides), for propoganda purposes, you should volunteer to go join those "boots on the ground". Why? Because you seem so willing to send a bunch of soldiers to DIE on a mission you write up with impossible standards that no soldier can live up to and expect to have a remote chance of surviving.
The FACT is that the minute a group of Israeli soldiers is pinned down and getting shot to pieces by Hezbollah terrorists hiding in a building full of civilians, you will curse those Israeli soldiers for returning fire and killing some of those civilians just EXACTLY like you curse Israeli pilots and artillery men now. The only difference will be the number of dead Israelis. Of course, maybe more dead Israelis to make the losses even will satisfy you. But I doubt it.
How hard is it to grasp that Hezbollah hides behind civilians and allows them to be killed, and in fact WANTS them to be killed, when the Israelis use aircraft, or when they use artillery? And how hard is it to grasp that they'll hide behind civilians and allow them to be killed, and be happy about them being killed, when Israeli infantry shows up?
There will only be TWO differences. The dead Lebanese civilians will have bullet holes in them mostly, rather than shrapnel and blast injuries, but they'll be just as DEAD. There'll just be more dead Israelis, which is what it appears some people seem to want.
-
Israel isnt killing indiscriminately
Yes they are
They are treating southern Lebanon as a free fire zone
-
NO DOUBT this amazing news comes from IDF general HOURS after that source to save face and job and neck. With all these state of the art weapons we been feeding Israel, they sure have an extremely hard time putting them on targets huh?
"Duh, whats that in the TV screen there? I can't tell, it's either a MLRS or a 3 story building disguised as one."
-
Originally posted by Donzo
Why is Israel made out to be the bad guy?
Actually I see both sides as being the bad guy.
Like I said. Two bratty kids throwing a tempertantrum with deadly consequences.
Someone a few posts ago said "Hezbollah started it with..."
And someone on the otherside could counter with and Ireal did that before"
And someone would mentiuon something about what someone else did before that.
And back and forth it could go.
Its at the point where it no longer matters who started what.
They both need to stop.
Or they BOTH need to be stopped
I put forth my solutions.
None of which will ever be carried out.
But they are the only ones wich will ever work
-
Originally posted by Toad
For those advocating a multinational force with clearance to fully engage, get it out of your head.
Probably the last time that happened under the UN aegis was in Korea.
It is simply NOT going to happen in Lebanon. Any country that sent troops to Lebanon with full clearance to engage is going to end up fighting Hezbollah in non-stop engagements. That leads to the rest of the Arabs hating the countries involved. Think "Jihad".
All the countries with enough military capability for such a mission have significantly large muslim populations. As a result there will be no sand, grit or will to get such a job done.
Ain't Gonna Happen. EVER.
So, forget it. Try to think up something else.
Im for it only if thy can fire in both directions
-
Originally posted by Maverick
Dred,
Nice option. Your solution to stop hezbollah is to engage in widespread house to house fighting. The boots on the ground strategy.
It sounds nice, in theory, but think how do you kill or remove the hezbollah from inside an apartment bulding? Oh and by the way, they didn't let the occupants leave. What are you going to do now? Don't forget that you will be receiving fire and explosive rounds during this operation.
Do you go in with pistols or do you do what the past experiance of heavy urban warfare has tought, bring down the building by shooting heavy munitions into it?
How many divisions are you going to sacrifice in this operation of trying to go through a fortified city?
Just curious here. You set the standard, how are ya going to do it as "boots on the ground" really isn't a strategy.
Typically in that Heavy urban warfare environment the great deal of the population has already evacuated. So bringing down the building with heavy fire is the best possible option.
In areas where there are large numbers of civilians or innocents (non combatants) Bringing down entire buildings is a really really bad ida.
so yes, you have to go street by street,building to building, room to room. WWII style
Yes there will be some collateral damage. In war there always are.
But far less then if you bring entire buildings down with non combatants in them simply to get a few badguys
and yes you will loose more of your own men that way. But if you arent prepaired to loose men. Then you shouldnt be willing to conduct military operations to begin with
There is another option.
Surround the town, cut off all supplies. Absorb whatever strikes they try to send out and starve them out.
-
Yea put boots on the ground that's the ticket.
Then next week we'll have.... a dead Lebanese kid with a rock still in his hand splashed on every TV screen around the globe.
That's what Hezbollah wants... I say don't give it to them.
Bronk
-
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Toad, how many times have you been told you cannot use common sense here? This is the O'Club for crying out loud.
Common sense in a thread where Lazs2,Gunslinger,Eagler,soda72,john9001 have posted ?
:rofl :rofl
-
I think Israel should go deep into Lebanon, Syria, and Egypt, killing pretty much anything that moves.
Sure the middle east is a powder keg. Better it smolders and cooks off while it is still on the dock. Then after it is loaded into the magazine.
these Islamist Pig loving swine want Jihad then give them a Jihad
-
Originally posted by straffo
Common sense in a thread where Lazs2,Gunslinger,Eagler,soda72,john9001 have posted ?
:rofl :rofl
you forgot me you ramming froggy
-
you don't exist !
-
Originally posted by straffo
you don't exist !
you are right I am a product of a bad snail you ate earlier!!!
-
using Psilocybe mushroom on the siding was not a good idea ;)
Smilies for Thibault my 4 year old son :p :lol :lol
(he really want me to post thoses !)
-
Originally posted by xrtoronto
number dead in this attack is now 57...34 of them children
It's a much safer place now that these 34 terrorists are dead.
-
Originally posted by Toad
It is simply NOT going to happen in Lebanon. Any country that sent troops to Lebanon with full clearance to engage is going to end up fighting Hezbollah in non-stop engagements. That leads to the rest of the Arabs hating the countries involved. Think "Jihad".
All the countries with enough military capability for such a mission have significantly large muslim populations. As a result there will be no sand, grit or will to get such a job done.
Most of the world are back seat drivers. They don't want to risk crashing their car, but they will demand a ride then tell you how to drive.
-
Originally posted by Donzo
Nope it never will. The only thing the UN is capable of doing is drafting up some do-nothing resolution.
Rwanda, Sudan...Where was/is the UN?
You forgot Srebrenica.
-
Originally posted by straffo
Common sense in a thread where Lazs2,Gunslinger,Eagler,soda72,john9001 have posted ?
finally, recognition by the international community, thank you , thank you.
-
Typically in that Heavy urban warfare environment the great deal of the population has already evacuated.
Over 750,000 people have evacuated southern Lebanon. Most of the civilians have left the combat zone.
In areas where there are large numbers of civilians or innocents (non combatants) Bringing down entire buildings is a really really bad ida.
so yes, you have to go street by street,building to building, room to room. WWII style
Yes there will be some collateral damage. In war there always are.
But far less then if you bring entire buildings down with non combatants in them simply to get a few badguys
and yes you will loose more of your own men that way. But if you arent prepaired to loose men. Then you shouldnt be willing to conduct military operations to begin with
There is another option.
Surround the town, cut off all supplies. Absorb whatever strikes they try to send out and starve them out.
An full scale invasion by IDF ground forces would require Israel to mobilize all her reserves. Which, would have huge negative impacts on Israel's economy. A full scale invasion would also be seen as a major escalation by the rest of the world and by Arabs in particular, and could cause others to join the conflict.
If you put in multinational peacekeepers, any non-Muslim units would be viewed as Crusaders. Muslim units wouldnt fire on Lebanese or Palestinians to stop them from attacking Israel. (At least I dont see that happening).
There isnt a viable solution to the conflict in the Middle East. The Arabs wont be satisfied until Israel no longer exists. Muslims view the area known as Palestine as Muslim territory since it was controlled by Muslims for a few hundred years, they dont care that the Jews lived there for several thousand years before that.