Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Bodhi on July 30, 2006, 03:03:38 PM
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Several thousand people massed outside the building in downtown Beirut chanting "Death to Israel, death to America. We sacrifice our blood and souls for Lebanon."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060730/wl_nm/mideast_lebanon_headquarters_dc
Absolutely wonderous bunch. They are so ignorant, they have no clue the US has no desire to see this situation get worse. It's better for us if it ends. Top that off with the novel approach that maybe they might not be in such a bad state if they did not support terrorists (whose sole motive is the destruction of Israel). They should get their army to get off their pathetic arses (half of whom probably are members of Hezbollah) and disarm hezbollah, and hell, they might not be in the situation they are in.
Dumb arses seem to forget who was the catylst in this recent round of arse whooping.
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Originally posted by Bodhi
They are so ignorant, they have no clue the US has no desire to see this situation get worse.
I wonder where they got that idea...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/14/AR2006071401785.html
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Originally posted by Sandman
I wonder where they got that idea...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/14/AR2006071401785.html
LOL, quoting the Washington Post... oh wait, I forgot it was Sandy.
As I said before, it does not behoove us to allow this thing to continue andget out of control.
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Originally posted by Sandman
I wonder where they got that idea...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/14/AR2006071401785.html
Yea all my buddies in beruit read the washington post.
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It doesn't matter what is done...
so might as well be damned for it...
:aok
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Originally posted by Bodhi
LOL, quoting the Washington Post... oh wait, I forgot it was Sandy.
As I said before, it does not behoove us to allow this thing to continue andget out of control.
So you dislike the Washington Post. It's really beside the point.
Bush Rejects Lebanon's Call for Cease-Fire (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060714/D8IRVGT8I.html)
How many days before the U.S. called for a cease fire?
Seems to me that Bush and Blair were quite content to let Israel blow the **** of southern Lebanon. What's changed?
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Here's an honest question.
After 9/11, we determined that the Taliban government of Afghanistan was harboring the terriorists responsible, Al Qaeda. We decided to remove that government and most of the world supported us in doing so, some militarily.
Shift to Lebanon.
The government of Lebanon has members of a universally decried terrorist organization, Hezbollah, in the Parliament. Hezbollah has ~ 14 of 128 seats in the Lebanese Parliament.
The government of Lebanon can certainly be said to be harboring terrorists and it has done nothing to prevent Hezbollah from attacking Israel from Lebanese territory.
Why then is the world not supporting Israel like it mostly supported the US operation to remove Afghanistan's Taliban government?
Follow up questions. If Israel announced it was invading Lebanon with the intention of removing the government and replacing it with one that did not harbor terrorists (as in US v Taliban) would they get support? If not, why not?
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Originally posted by Toad
Here's an honest question.
After 9/11, we determined that the Taliban government of Afghanistan was harboring the terriorists responsible, Al Qaeda. We decided to remove that government and most of the world supported us in doing so, some militarily.
Shift to Lebanon.
The government of Lebanon has members of a universally decried terrorist organization, Hezbollah, in the Parliament. Hezbollah has ~ 14 of 128 seats in the Lebanese Parliament.
The government of Lebanon can certainly be said to be harboring terrorists and it has done nothing to prevent Hezbollah from attacking Israel from Lebanese territory.
Why then is the world not supporting Israel like it mostly supported the US operation to remove Afghanistan's Taliban government?
Follow up questions. If Israel announced it was invading Lebanon with the intention of removing the government and replacing it with one that did not harbor terrorists (as in US v Taliban) would they get support? If not, why not?
Short answer? Because Israel is a Jewish state, and sad as it is, old habits and misconceptions die hard.
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President Bush said Sunday the United States "mourns the loss of innocent life" and that all parties with a stake in the Mideast conflict "must work together to achieve a sustainable peace."
Bush said the United States is resolved to work with members of the Security Council to draw up "a resolution that will enable the region to have a sustainable peace," he said.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/30/mideast.main/index.html
So where is it that Bush says he is ok with Israel making Southern and Northern Lebanon a parking lot? Are you reading into things Sandy?
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it may be due to this: -
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13535660,00.html
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Originally posted by Bodhi
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/30/mideast.main/index.html
So where is it that Bush says he is ok with Israel making Southern and Northern Lebanon a parking lot? Are you reading into things Sandy?
It's not what he said. It's what he didn't say for over two weeks.
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Sandman, will you take a stab at answering my question upthread?
Why doesn't the world view this incident the same way they viewed 9/11 & the Afghanistan invasion?
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Originally posted by Toad
Sandman, will you take a stab at answering my question upthread?
Why doesn't the world view this incident the same way they viewed 9/11 & the Afghanistan invasion?
Well... I honestly don't know. Your points are valid. But... I'll nibble at your hook with some weak theories. ;)
Maybe it's the lack of history that the U.S. had against Afghanistan. We clearly had nothing against them. In fact, IIRC we even supported the Taliban at one time. The same cannot be said for Israel and its neighbors. It seems that Israel is always at war.
From what I've read, the government of Lebanon was powerless to stop Hezbollah. I'm not sure the same could be said of the relationship between Al Qaeda and the Taliban.
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Originally posted by Sandman
The same cannot be said for Israel and its neighbors. It seems that Israel is always at war.
[/b]
Well, yes. Wars in 1948–49, 1956, 1967, 1973–74, and 1982 between Israel and the Arab states. While in some the Israelis struck preemptively, I don't recall any that weren't Arab driven.
Not to mention the unending smaller scale conflict. Once again, it's usually not the Israelis that start something without provocation, this latest round a case in point.
From what I've read, the government of Lebanon was powerless to stop Hezbollah. I'm not sure the same could be said of the relationship between Al Qaeda and the Taliban.
How so? Lebanon has a 70,000 man army. The Taliban figuratively gave the world the middle digit when called on A-Q. Has there been any condemnation of Hezbollah's acts from the Lebanese Parliament?
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Originally posted by Sandman
Well... I honestly don't know. Your points are valid. But... I'll nibble at your hook with some weak theories. ;)
Maybe it's the lack of history that the U.S. had against Afghanistan. We clearly had nothing against them. In fact, IIRC we even supported the Taliban at one time. The same cannot be said for Israel and its neighbors. It seems that Israel is always at war.
From what I've read, the government of Lebanon was powerless to stop Hezbollah. I'm not sure the same could be said of the relationship between Al Qaeda and the Taliban.
I'll grant you that the government of Lebanon was unabale to control Hezbolla. Unless the truth is really that they were unwilling to do so then why didn't they offer support to Israel in defeating Hezbollah when the fighting started?
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You ever notice that the very same folks who get all wound up, shouting to the roof tops that the U.S. shouldn`t be here, shouldn`t be there, shouldn`t be doing this in this country and that country, shouldn`t interfere with so and so country, not any of the U.S. business what so and so country does, ......what gives the U.S. the right to(insertwhine of choice)............................. .............
are the ones who start screaming like a pig under a gate when we don`t immediately jump into another country`s conflict?
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The last 60 years history in the middle east is like an episode of Cops . . .
Perp (Arabs) do something wrong (terrorism or outright attack) so the Cops (IDF) go after them. Cops go chasing the perps. Chase ends. Perp starts fighting the cops. Cops defend themselves and end up beating perp to a bloody pulp.
While putting said bloody pulp in squadcar (think Israeli prisons and all the terrorists there) out come the "peeps" from the "hood" (next generation Arabs) come out screaming at Cops "why you always pickin' on us? Let him out of your car!" Cops say "No, he's a criminal, he's going to jail." Some idgit takes a swing at a Cop, and now that guy is getting beat up and arrested too. As new perp is fighting the Cop, going for their guns, biting their arms, kicking etc. he is screaming at the top of his lungs "I am NOT resisting arrest!"
Which leads to more "peeps" coming out, "why you pickin on our brother?"
Meanwhile, some nosey reporter in a traffic helecopter (CNN) decides only to air the footage of the Cops arresting the perps, with commentary like "looks like the Cops are using excessive force, here" without any mention of the fact that the perps, after all, started it.
Enter the dang ACLU lawyers (UN) threatening the Cops with lawsuits (sanctions) for having the audacity to actually arrest a perp. After all, everyone knows the Cops go out and arrest indescriminately . . .
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I guess removing the Taliban was easier to sell, the west could see there was no democracy, no civil rights, big opium supplier, even before AQ and 9/11. Lebanon is at least, some kind of democracy. If Israel invaded to remove the government, what would they have to do to stop Hezbollah or a Hezbollah clone being voted in again?
Every western nation supports Israel. No-one denies them the right to exist or defend themselves, only difference is that some give them free reign and others expect some self restraint.
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Well, it looks like Hezbollah has influence greater than it's standing in Parliament would indicate.
They only hold ~10% of the seats and yet all Lebanon bows before them.
They aren't running the country because of 14 seats in Parliament. They're running the country because they'll apparently kill as necessary to further their goals.
Remove them and maybe a normal government might be possible.
Just a thought.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Maybe it's the lack of history that the U.S. had against Afghanistan. We clearly had nothing against them. In fact, IIRC we even supported the Taliban at one time. The same cannot be said for Israel and its neighbors. It seems that Israel is always at war.
THis would drive any sane mind into believing it is Anti-Semitism at work, not just hatred of war.
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The only criticism of the conflict I've seen in the news from the Lebanese government (the PM I think) was about the criminal Isrealis. Nope there is no chance of any scism between the Lebonese govt. and hezbollah. Hezbollah owns them.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
THis would drive any sane mind into believing it is Anti-Semitism at work, not just hatred of war.
Exactly. The actions of Israel have always been above reproach. They are and will forever be completely blameless.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Exactly. The actions of Israel have always been above reproach. They are and will forever be completely blameless.
Nevar Ferget!!!!
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Israel knows how to pragmatically communicate with arab nations. Beyond reproach, maybe not, but they've learned to speak the language of the bully, they do it well, and it would serve the rest of the civiized world to take a lesson from them. Words, diplomacy, negotiations and everything else that is valued as human language in the West simply does not compute with a class of humanity that covertly, often overtly, sits by and supports the first strike mentality that we've seen practiced by the 'holy-warriors' of Islam. Much of the world sympathizes with them because they are, on average, poor and under-equipped by comparison to the Israelis, but, the fact of the matter is, Israel has been and, at least for the forseable future, will remain on the dfensive. Their technological and organizational superiority is trumped by geography and the flow of political tides. Nevertheless, they remain outnumbered and outhated by the enemy. I defy anyone here to quote an Israeli leader as saying that is his/her goal to see the Arab world wiped from existence. Yes, they've acted aggressivly and defiantly, but they've never done so without proper provocation. You say they've been in 6 wars since 1948. I say they've been in one that's never stopped.
Now, some of you may consider Israel an aggressor, perhaps even a 'pissant little nation on his/her government's teet', and I have to commend you. It take some serious intestinal fortitude to villify a nation that is aggressive only in its desire to survive. Survive and prosper in a part of the world where dessert and desolation is par for the course, almost exclusively. Survive and prosper where all their neighbors love off little more than the crud they pump from the ground and the indoctrination they pump in to the minds of their offspring. It takes serious intenstinal fortitude to side against a nation that, unlike any other in the modern world, has these fanatics surprised, even scared by their response to what is nothing more than another cowardly provocation in a series of many. I commend your intestinal fortitude, because despite the fact that you've likely never visited that part of the world, and never will, you've still managed to accumulate enough wisdom in the matter of dealing with constant aggressive encrouchment they you can actually lecture, from a safe distant, and maintain a straight face.
I side with the weak oppressors. In fact, if I could help it, more of my tax dollars would go to aiding these Zionist-fascists. If I could contribute to a world where Israel's population numbers 100 million, I would consider my life more worthwhile. They, unlike anyone else within 1000 miles, have turned their desert into fertile land, both literally and figuratively. They've raised a strong, smart people who, against all odds, actually harbor less hatred than the neighbors who outnumber them better than 20 to 1. The middle east, which is home to some of the oldest evidence of human endeavor, should be a cradle of civilization. As it stands right now, there's only one nation in that corner of the world that's shown any lasting dedication to civility, intelligence and true human progress, and this nation does not bow down to Mecca.
I'd also like to give a rare praise to our president. Although he didn't have the balls to treat the enemy like an enemy after 9/11, at the very least, he's not stopping Israel from doing exactly that. They want a cease fire, then cease-firing and quit trying to leverage a negotiation. The Israelis have played this poker game before.
As a side note, to all those of you who're currently on the way to San Francisco with a flower in your hair. I urge you to please smoke all the dope you have and stay where you are. Reality and Upotia have never been farther apart.
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Israel agreed to a cease-fire... yet they bombed again this morning. They had a clause in the deal that "allowed" them to attack a site that is preparing to strike Israel.. LOL
Cease-fire with the option to fire whenever you want is a nice deal i suppose. Kinda gives Hezbolla the same option i guess... and we are at it again.
Nice deal.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Cease-fire with the option to fire whenever you want is a nice deal i suppose. Kinda gives Hezbolla the same option i guess... and we are at it again.
Nice deal.
Sounds like a fair deal. That's what Hezbollah and Hamas has been doing over and over again - Kept the right to bombard Israel once in a while during a cease fire. Israel simply follows the same standard ...
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bingo Fishu..nice deal.
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I don't think there's a ceasefire yet. I have heard that Israel was giving southern Lebanon a break but were bombing in the east instead.
Israel has agreed to a 48 hour suspension of airstrikes, but is already gearing up to resume its bombardment
http://story.newzealandstar.com/p.x/ct/9/cid/b8de8e630faf3631/id/884f12cbc532b842/
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Just read that they're pausing for 2 days, and gathering up reserve troops for an increased action on the ground.
Who's gonna miss the Hizbollah?
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See Rule #5
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4- Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users and HTC. Flaming or abusing users is not tolerated.
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see rule #5
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doesn't make you sound smarter. Nice try though.
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hmm but I didnt get my post deleted
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Originally posted by Angus
Just read that they're pausing for 2 days, and gathering up reserve troops for an increased action on the ground.
Who's gonna miss the Hizbollah?
hizbollocks bit off more than they can chew. I wonder at what point they realize that they are up watermelon creek without a paddle, because it doesn't look like Israel wants to back off any time soon - they'r 'going for gold'.
The sooner hiz are just a memory the better it will be for all concerned but I
doubt it will be that simple.
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I guess its progress. Ten years ago 100 people were killed before people got upset, now only 50. If it keeps up at this rate, I confidently predict peace in the middle east by 2056.
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Originally posted by Trikky
I guess its progress. Ten years ago 100 people were killed before people got upset, now only 50. If it keeps up at this rate, I confidently predict peace in the middle east by 2056.
Is that after the nukes rain down in 2055?
Your analogy only works if Israel kills 50/100 people from the attacking country.. The world would just stand by and watch if it were the Jews that were dying via bus bombs or rockets.. The world never condemns the terrorist or their actions. If they do squeak out some meager protest, it only last until the picture of the 1st non Jewish child killed is televised..
Lebanon is like Palestine, they have both elected known terrorist groups into their governments
Obliviously the people want to be lead by and follow the beliefs and practices of their elected terrorist leaders. What does that say about the people of those countries? How will there every be peace in the region when their racism hatred of the Jewish people and her allies, the US, overshadows any logical thinking?
I predict there will always be a Hamas, the Hezboobs and the AQ just as there will always be cockroaches. You can lay down a barrier to keep your home safe from them, but you cannot exterminate them all with approved conventional means..
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Originally posted by Eagler
IThe world never condemns the terrorist or their actions. If they do squeak out some meager protest, it only last until the picture of the 1st non Jewish child killed is televised..
Try reading some international news and you will see that your statment is false. I cant speak for your national news broadcasts.
Every terroist bombing is reported and condemned here. Even those within Iraq are still reported daily.
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gee... most of the guys saying Israel is too mean to the poor peace loving arabs around them....
You were/are all saying how the sadman had to rule his country with an iron fist because of all the sects and that we were better off with this great man running things in such a democratic way... maybe a few hundred thousand a year had to be taught a lesson but... that was the only way he could deal with such people.
Israel is attacked with rockets from the civilian centers of a neighbor who does nothing to stop it and.....
The hand wringing and empathy for these "poor civilians" just oooooozes out..
lazs
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Try reading some international news and you will see that your statment is false. I cant speak for your national news broadcasts.
Every terroist bombing is reported and condemned here. Even those within Iraq are still reported daily.
hmm
the international cry for action when an Israeli bus or nightclub gets blown to smithereens must be so high it must be out of the range of the human ear. Maybe my dog can hear it ...
Ya think the world would have acted to retrieve the kidnapped soldiers if Israel turned to them for help? I don't.
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Originally posted by Eagler
hmm
the international cry for action when an Israeli bus or nightclub gets blown to smithereens must be so high it must be out of the range of the human ear. Maybe my dog can hear it ...
Ya think the world would have acted to retrieve the kidnapped soldiers if Israel turned to them for help? I don't.
The international condemnation against hizbollah is there, just as you had after 9/11 by everyone. Maybe its not on american news stations, but it sertainly is here.
So far Israel has wanted to settle their own problems themselves, and are free to do so as long as they dont target civilian infrastructure.
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international condemnation will not bring back the kidnapped soldiers...
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Originally posted by soda72
international condemnation will not bring back the kidnapped soldiers...
Its not about the kidnapped soldiers.
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Sandman/Toad,
One factor to consider in your discussion that I think both of you have either forgotten (as far as I can tell) is that up until about last summer lebanon was occupied by the syrian army. That factor would probably hold alot of wieght in a discussion who's next.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
So far Israel has wanted to settle their own problems themselves, and are free to do so as long as they dont target civilian infrastructure.
you might want to take a look at that "Civilian infrastructure" and ask yourself if you are now a victim of "free press propaganda....
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,19955774-5007220,00.html
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
you might want to take a look at that "Civilian infrastructure" and ask yourself if you are now a victim of "free press propaganda....
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,19955774-5007220,00.html
No im not.
article says nothing new.
Poweplants, roads etc is civilian infrastructure. So are houses.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
No im not.
article says nothing new.
Poweplants, roads etc is civilian infrastructure. So are houses.
The enemie's army is 75,000 strong. Would it be prudent to take out the infrastructure as to make it difficult for the enemy to execute war? Just curious as to what you find "off limits" in war, and give examples when civilian infrastructure was NOT targeted in any war....
Slightly off topic, but I thought this Dec 2005 article was very interesting:
http://www.laweekly.com/news/news/guess-whos-coming-to-iftar/42/
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
The enemie's army is 75,000 strong. Would it be prudent to take out the infrastructure as to make it difficult for the enemy to execute war? Just curious as to what you find "off limits" in war, and give examples when civilian infrastructure was NOT targeted in any war....
Slightly off topic, but I thought this Dec 2005 article was very interesting:
http://www.laweekly.com/news/news/guess-whos-coming-to-iftar/42/
They are taking out lebanons infrastructure.. to get at someone else.
What is it now...over 700 lebanese civilians killed and much of their economy layes in ruins. Israel tells folks to evacuate while preventing them to do so by bombing the exit roads and starving their fuel supply.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
No im not.
article says nothing new.
Poweplants, roads etc is civilian infrastructure. So are houses.
This ifrastructure allows the enemy to wage war IE roads and bridges are legitimate supply lines (presumably from syria) Houses....well what better place to hide. Nilsen there's a new story brewing that the Qana "incident" happened 8 hours after the IDF attack and the hezbollah is milking this tragedy for all it's worth.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
They are taking out lebanons infrastructure.. to get at someone else.
What is it now...over 700 lebanese civilians killed and much of their economy layes in ruins. Israel tells folks to evacuate while preventing them to do so by bombing the exit roads and starving their fuel supply.
How many Frenchmen died due to infrastructure bombing in WW2? How many in Holland? How about Afghanistan when the Taliban seized power? What war did NOT involve civilians dying needlessly while infrastructure was taken out? Thats my point...and Hezbollah could have prevented this but there is a bigger power struggle taking place here, instigated by Iran.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
How many Frenchmen died due to infrastructure bombing in WW2? How many in Holland? How about Afghanistan when the Taliban seized power? What war did NOT involve civilians dying needlessly while infrastructure was taken out? Thats my point...and Hezbollah could have prevented this but there is a bigger power struggle taking place here, instigated by Iran.
I know.. but ww2 is a different war at a different time so you cant compare them really.
I cant rember defendig talibans actions in afghanistan, and neither has the international community.
I get your point.. War = civilian losses, and mistakes and accidents may happen. Still dont have to like it or accept needless destruction.
Israel and USA are allies so its natural for america to always back Israel but this time they have gone too far in my opinion... and that is my opinion. Ofcourse that may label me as a terrorist supporter but that is not my problem.
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Hezbollah means "Army of God" or Army of Allah. It is financially backed by Iran and has been since around 1982. (you remember the 200+ marines dying to a Hezbollah suicide terrorist in 1983) You must ask yourself this question when wondering why Hezbollah kidnapped two Israeli soldiers: "Would Iran want an unstable middle east?" The answer to this question is an undoubtable "Yes". Now you know the bigger powers of influence here. I'm quite certain Iran is praying that Israel accidently hits Syria so that Iran has its case for attacking Israel.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
I know.. but ww2 is a different war at a different time so you cant compare them really.
I cant rember defendig talibans actions in afghanistan, and neither has the international community.
I get your point.. War = civilian losses, and mistakes and accidents may happen. Still dont have to like it or accept needless destruction.
Israel and USA are allies so its natural for america to always back Israel but this time they have gone too far in my opinion... and that is my opinion. Ofcourse that may label me as a terrorist supporter but that is not my problem.
Nils alot of us are saying that the Hezbollah are fighting an enormous propaganda war as well. What would seem like legitimate targets are being twisted and milked in the media to no end. There's all this outrage and speculation of the IDF "intentional" tageting of civilians and all that does is shift focus from the fact that Hezbollah ONLY TARGET civilians as seen with their rocket attacks. Every time there's an incident there seems to be more and more press photographers and writers almost falling over eachother ready to write the condemnation of Israel.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Hezbollah means "Army of God" or Army of Allah. It is financially backed by Iran and has been since around 1982. (you remember the 200+ marines dying to a Hezbollah suicide terrorist in 1983) You must ask yourself this question when wondering why Hezbollah kidnapped two Israeli soldiers: "Would Iran want an unstable middle east?" The answer to this question is an undoubtable "Yes". Now you know the bigger powers of influence here. I'm quite certain Iran is praying that Israel accidently hits Syria so that Iran has its case for attacking Israel.
Nobody on this BBS are supporting Hizbollah (afaik). They are rodants that needs to go away, and there is no doubt that they are sponsored by both Iran and Syria. These things are universally known facts that nobody here disagrees on. Its the way israel goes about taking them out that is beeing questioned. If i rememeber correctly even Caligula and Bozon agreed that Israel went too far in responce to the kidnapping that got this recent escalation started.
Lebanon is a very fragile country that has only recently been released (sort of) from syria. The economy was slowly improving given time they may have had the power to control their own country. As it is they dont have full control but these things takes time. With recent events Hezbollah are winning support in Lebanon. In the short term they are sertainly loosing both "soldiers" and equipment but in the long run this will strenghten them.
Lets agree to disagree.. I have plenty of things to do. My last day at work today before i hand over to my dad tomorrow so this discussion will have to way from my end. Feel free to keep it going tho :)
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Nils alot of us are saying that the Hezbollah are fighting an enormous propaganda war as well. What would seem like legitimate targets are being twisted and milked in the media to no end. There's all this outrage and speculation of the IDF "intentional" tageting of civilians and all that does is shift focus from the fact that Hezbollah ONLY TARGET civilians as seen with their rocket attacks. Every time there's an incident there seems to be more and more press photographers and writers almost falling over eachother ready to write the condemnation of Israel.
I know they are.. I doubt anyone is really buying into their propaganda tho, but Israel is not helping any. If they had refrained from giving the press anything to work with they would be better off..
I mean if there is a shread of indication that there may be civis near a target then you swallow that "camel :D" and go for the safe targets. That way you have your bellybutton in the dry even if it means leaving some targets intact.
Enjoy the thread... I may return to it when i have time :)
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Nils alot of us are saying that the Hezbollah are fighting an enormous propaganda war as well. What would seem like legitimate targets are being twisted and milked in the media to no end. There's all this outrage and speculation of the IDF "intentional" tageting of civilians and all that does is shift focus from the fact that Hezbollah ONLY TARGET civilians as seen with their rocket attacks. Every time there's an incident there seems to be more and more press photographers and writers almost falling over eachother ready to write the condemnation of Israel.
Exactly.
Israel has gone too far? how about Hezbollah has gone too far...?
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Exactly.
Israel has gone too far? how about Hezbollah has gone too far...?
Hezbollah went too far the day they fired their first rocket or exploded their first bomb. That is a given.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Hezbollah went too far the day they fired their first rocket or exploded their first bomb. That is a given.
Nilsen, I respect your opinions very much. You seem to be a very intelligent person who knows the issues well. I have a question for you. Why do you think Hezbollah kidnapped two Israeli soldiers?
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Lebanon is a very fragile country that has only recently been released (sort of) from syria. The economy was slowly improving given time they may have had the power to control their own country. As it is they dont have full control but these things takes time. With recent events Hezbollah are winning support in Lebanon. In the short term they are sertainly loosing both "soldiers" and equipment but in the long run this will strenghten them.
Ever think that's why this watermelon was started in the first place.
*Iran/Syria*
Hmm oohhhh noo Lebanon starting to become to self reliant.
If it gets to peaceful there and people start finding out being next door to Israel is a good thing...we're screwed. They will toss Hezbollah toadies out of the political offices they now hold.
Better tell those Hezbollah dipchits to get there arses in gear before the Lebanese get a clue and run em out of there.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Nilsen, I respect your opinions very much. You seem to be a very intelligent person who knows the issues well. I have a question for you. Why do you think Hezbollah kidnapped two Israeli soldiers?
Well thank you and ditto.
Officially it was to get prisoners released by trade. Their real goal was ocourse to get media attention and to spark some sort of reaction by Israel.
And to answer your next question :D.. why do we and the press let them have that attention?
Human nature I suppose and free press that "has" to report such things.. Israel played it right into their hands by goig all out against them and surrounding targets.
now... i really have to go.
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Originally posted by Bronk
Ever think that's why this watermelon was started in the first place.
*Iran/Syria*
Hmm oohhhh noo Lebanon starting to become to self reliant.
If it gets to peaceful there and people start finding out being next door to Israel is a good thing...we're screwed. They will toss Hezbollah toadies out of the political offices they now hold.
Better tell those Hezbollah dipchits to get there arses in gear before the Lebanese get a clue and run em out of there.
Bronk
That may be spot on... sounds like somthing that may have happened.
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Don't think the crowd were pacified by the fact that it was probably American made munitions that done the damage, might even have been the 5000lb bunker busting bombs that were overnighted to the Israelis...
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Originally posted by Hawco
Don't think the crowd were pacified by the fact that it was probably American made munitions that done the damage, might even have been the 5000lb bunker busting bombs that were overnighted to the Israelis...
as compared to the rockets shipped in from syria that randomly target ONLY civilians.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
as compared to the rockets shipped in from syria that randomly target ONLY civilians.
Thought we were talking about the demonstrations as opposed to who supplies Hizbollah? And why they were having a pop at the United States?
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Originally posted by Hawco
Don't think the crowd were pacified by the fact that it was probably American made munitions that done the damage, might even have been the 5000lb bunker busting bombs that were overnighted to the Israelis...
Your source for this information?
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
I'm quite certain Iran is praying that Israel accidently hits Syria so that Iran has its case for attacking Israel.
Iran wants this current spat to go on as long as possible. That way they get a step closer to having nukes. They (Iran) thought this whole deal would take pressure off of them concerning their uranium enrichment. They were wrong....
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/31/iran.nuclear.ap/index.html
Now, Iran needs to figure a way to keep this deal going as long as possible, even to the point of all out war between Syria and Israel. Which means inciting Hezbollah even more. As long as there is amssive strife in that region, the eyes of the world are not looking at Iran. Thats what their plan is in a nutshell. Delay as long as possible until they can be assured of having nukes. When that happens, all bets are off, as Ahmadinejad is going to assert his claim on fulfilling prophecy and thus destroying the zionist state.
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Originally posted by Hawco
Thought we were talking about the demonstrations as opposed to who supplies Hizbollah? And why they were having a pop at the United States?
Well it doesn't take much for them to riot and destroy things. If it's not us supplying them with usfull weapons against a tactical target its the danish publishing of cartoons or a false story of flushing a quran. They seem to allways celibrate the rocket attacks wich only target civilans. Riots are nothing new here.
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like I said b4, we are wasting our time with the hamas, aq's and hez/hizboobs
Iran and Syria need to be flatten .. make them glowing piles of sand and watch everyone else get with the program .. pronto
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Eagler,
So you're saying it's time to play cowboys and muslims....... :p
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Originally posted by Nilsen
They are taking out lebanons infrastructure.. to get at someone else.
What is it now...over 700 lebanese civilians killed and much of their economy layes in ruins. Israel tells folks to evacuate while preventing them to do so by bombing the exit roads and starving their fuel supply.
Nilsen those folks can still walk. I know I would walk out in that situation. :)
Bombing the infrastructure is done to hurt the enemy, make it harder for him to move around, communicate etc. Does this also affect the civilians? Of course it does. Taking out a countries infrastructure is part of war, sucks, but part of war anyways.
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Originally posted by Elfie
Nilsen those folks can still walk. I know I would walk out in that situation. :)
Bombing the infrastructure is done to hurt the enemy, make it harder for him to move around, communicate etc. Does this also affect the civilians? Of course it does. Taking out a countries infrastructure is part of war, sucks, but part of war anyways.
Well.. there are about 100.000 that has not left the areas for some reason. Some have chosen to stay in their homes, but many of them are actually elders and disabled folks stuck in vilages and towns.
The UN relief coordinator Jan Egeland came home from Lebanon today and was interviewed on the news. He said there is an humanitarian disaster about to unfold and they are only allowed to send in 10 UN marked trucks a couple of times a day with medicine and food, but that is just scratching the surface. There are whole vilages that are cut off in the Bekar? valley... they cant go anywere. There are reports of bodys in the streets that has been there for over a week.
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Israel but this time they have gone too far in my opinion... and that is my opinion.
How exactly? Should they use like force? If Israel were to use the same force that the hizbos are would it be going too far?
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Originally posted by PonyDriver
How exactly? Should they use like force? If Israel were to use the same force that the hizbos are would it be going too far?
Ive made about a dusin posts about that, including some in this thread so excuse me if i dont repeat myself... its late
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uh huh
well I guess then you'd be ok with Israel using the same force as the Hizbo's. I'd bet you'd be fine if they started launching rockets into random civilian concentrations.
Nils, I'm willing to bet that if a neighboring country of yours kidnapped(they are most likely dead after being tortured) 2 of your own soldiers, then started launching rockets into your neighborhood,(after having already been doing so for years) that you'd want the threat eliminated, not negotiated with(knowing full well that any peace would end in a few months with more rockets landing in your neighborhood)
I simply refuse to believe that you would want to negotiate and settle with this kind of threat so close to you that you could be killed in your bed at any time, without notice.
If i had violent extrmists within rocket range of my house, I'd ber inclined to defend my family, not make deals. How about you?
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Originally posted by Nilsen
There are reports of bodys in the streets that has been there for over a week.
You sure you didn't read a Katrina report? :huh ;)
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Originally posted by Hawco
Don't think the crowd were pacified by the fact that it was probably American made munitions that done the damage, might even have been the 5000lb bunker busting bombs that were overnighted to the Israelis...
Anybody else notice that the aid shipments from Lebonese neighbors were coming in American made C-130s?
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Originally posted by Eagler
Is that after the nukes rain down in 2055?
Hehe...I would bet that it won't take that long. If they get one some holy nutjob will use it. Then it will be game over in the middle east.
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Originally posted by PonyDriver
uh huh
well I guess then you'd be ok with Israel using the same force as the Hizbo's. I'd bet you'd be fine if they started launching rockets into random civilian concentrations.
Nils, I'm willing to bet that if a neighboring country of yours kidnapped(they are most likely dead after being tortured) 2 of your own soldiers, then started launching rockets into your neighborhood,(after having already been doing so for years) that you'd want the threat eliminated, not negotiated with(knowing full well that any peace would end in a few months with more rockets landing in your neighborhood)
I simply refuse to believe that you would want to negotiate and settle with this kind of threat so close to you that you could be killed in your bed at any time, without notice.
If i had violent extrmists within rocket range of my house, I'd ber inclined to defend my family, not make deals. How about you?
Yes..
We would defend our selves against those doing whatever.
Israel is overreacting against _Lebanon_
Negotiation is the only solution in the long run, you cant win militarily against an organisation such as hezbollah. you can only slow them down for awhile. I bet their recruitment "offices" wont have problems finding new members now.
It started with kidnapping and then Israel responded with massive force against _Lebanon_... hezbollah (not Lebanon) used it as another excuse to launch houndreds of rockets and here we are.
Hezbollah is not Lebanon.
Pardon me, but I have far too much to do to repeat myself too many times, but if you have any new questions feel free to ask. :)
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Negotiation is the only solution in the long run,
Negotiate w/ terrorists? How?
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Originally posted by PonyDriver
Negotiate w/ terrorists? How?
With Lebanon.. they need the support and strenght to keep hezbollah out.
You need to talk to hezbollah too. They are a factor you can not ignore or shoot away. Negotiations are usually done with words, not artillery and airstrikes against them and their human sheilds.
You cant kill an idea, anger, frustration or belife with bullets, you can only keep it at bay for a short while.
what about you then Ponydriver? Think they can be defeated with military might?
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Originally posted by Nilsen
You cant kill an idea, anger, frustration or belife with bullets, you can only keep it at bay for a short while.
The idea of Nazism was killed (or at least put in a very deep coma) with blood, bombs and bullets...
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Ok Nils,. you're the Israeli Pm... exactly what do you say to the Hizbos in your negotiations?
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
The idea of Nazism was killed (or at least put in a very deep coma) with blood, bombs and bullets...
Well yes, but the nazi regime including its founder and majority of its supporters were crushed on their home turf. Is it dead?..well as you said not entierly but close enough.
The ideology and founders of radical islam is not in Lebanon but abit further east and spread in so many countries and regions that it cant be destroyed by going after hezbollah in Lebanon. Its like chopping of a squid lim that will only grow back because its body is still alive.
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"Collateral dammage" as you seem to enjoy calling it, is only "collateral dammage" when it happens in someone else's country. You call it something else when it happens on your soil.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
With Lebanon.. they need the support and strenght to keep hezbollah out.
You need to talk to hezbollah too. They are a factor you can not ignore or shoot away. Negotiations are usually done with words, not artillery and airstrikes against them and their human sheilds.
You cant kill an idea, anger, frustration or belife with bullets, you can only keep it at bay for a short while.
what about you then Ponydriver? Think they can be defeated with military might?
If military power could solve an insurgency alone the British would've invaded Ireland to combat the IRA or destroyed Dublin's infrastructure...
Tronsky
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In 10 days, they should be able to stand on a carrier deck& post the "Mission accomplished" sign dixit Ben-Eliezer.
"I estimate that for the IDF to complete their job - and I reiterate, to complete its job means that the area where we want the multinational force to deploy should be clean of Hezbollah and clean of rocket launchers and missiles - it will take approximately 10 days to two weeks,"
Linkenstein (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5233842.stm)
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Originally posted by Nilsen
The ideology and founders of radical islam is not in Lebanon but abit further east and spread in so many countries and regions that it cant be destroyed by going after hezbollah in Lebanon. Its like chopping of a squid lim that will only grow back because its body is still alive.
You keep chopping, one area at a time until you reach the head, then chop it off.
The fact of the matter is if you are a country to harbor and support terrorist organizations, you are taking your chances and you will eventualy pay for it.
A great portion of the world is getting a little more than sick and tired of two bit terrorist orgs. being sheltered until which time they gather enough resources to pull off bombings, kidnappings, publicly aired beheadings, etc., etc.
If you will remember and look back, a similar thing happened with one of the Columbian cartels. The Columbian people were suckered into the same situation almost. The leader of the cartel (Escobar) improved streets, schools, hospitals...on and on, until he was was almost worshipped by the people.
Of course after he won their backing , the killing started and went on for a long time. Anyone standing in the way or impeding the operations of the cartel were slaughtered in the streets. Government, law and local officials and their families were slaughtered to make a point. The people paid the price in the end and ended up at the cartel`ss mercy and whim.
It resembles the way the Hezzies have went about manipulating the people of Lebanon in more than a slight way.
You play.....you end up paying.
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Originally posted by Saintaw
In 10 days, they should be able to stand on a carrier deck& post the "Mission accomplished" sign dixit Ben-Eliezer.
I never take anything Ben-Eliezer says too seriously. He likes to talk too much.
And Israel doesn't have any carriers to stand on.
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Originally posted by Jackal1
You keep chopping, one area at a time until you reach the head, then chop it off.
The fact of the matter is if you are a country to harbor and support terrorist organizations, you are taking your chances and you will eventualy pay for it.
A great portion of the world is getting a little more than sick and tired of two bit terrorist orgs. being sheltered until which time they gather enough resources to pull off bombings, kidnappings, publicly aired beheadings, etc., etc.
If you will remember and look back, a similar thing happened with one of the Columbian cartels. The Columbian people were suckered into the same situation almost. The leader of the cartel (Escobar) improved streets, schools, hospitals...on and on, until he was was almost worshipped by the people.
Of course after he won their backing , the killing started and went on for a long time. Anyone standing in the way or impeding the operations of the cartel were slaughtered in the streets. Government, law and local officials and their families were slaughtered to make a point. The people paid the price in the end and ended up at the cartel`ss mercy and whim.
It resembles the way the Hezzies have went about manipulating the people of Lebanon in more than a slight way.
You play.....you end up paying.
Im just not so sure that all the Lebanese civilians are harbouring hezbollah, im not even sure that most of them are or that the government has the tools to get them out when and ofcourse IF they want to.
Its just too different ways to see things. For you its (prolly) acceptable with the attacks for the greater good or bigger picture.
For me the sacrifice to the civilian folks and the infrastructure is more than is warranted. I have no problem seeing your point of view, I just dont agree with it, and I think it will be counter productive.
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Yes Bozon, i was making a funnay :)
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Im just not so sure that all the Lebanese civilians are harbouring hezbollah, im not even sure that most of them are or that the government has the tools to get them out when and ofcourse IF they want to.
Its just too different ways to see things. For you its (prolly) acceptable with the attacks for the greater good or bigger picture.
For me the sacrifice to the civilian folks and the infrastructure is more than is warranted. I have no problem seeing your point of view, I just dont agree with it, and I think it will be counter productive.
Who knows how it will all turn out.
I agree that not all of them are harboring nor supporting them, but a great deal of them have bit off into a pretty good scam. They enjoyed sopping the gravy and the short term benefits. Now comes the paying for the playing.
I can say one thing. If I were in the middle of a battle zone, with airstrikes, rocket attacks and a ground war going on around my area and I didn`t agree with the cause that was being attacked, I would do the " Get to hell outa Dodge manuever" in short order with me and my family. Drastic times calls for drastic measures.
Sitting back and waiting for terrorist orgs to become more powerfull and more prepared to do further attacks is not my cup of tea. They are not going away. The only way to stop or control them is to go all out and hit them where it hurts. Stop the funding, stop the safe harbors, interupt and destroy supply lines.
If you just sit around with your head in the sand, you are going to pay a much higher price in the end.
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Doing nothing will get you nowere.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
They are taking out lebanons infrastructure.. to get at someone else.
What is it now...over 700 lebanese civilians killed and much of their economy layes in ruins. Israel tells folks to evacuate while preventing them to do so by bombing the exit roads and starving their fuel supply.
This is simply the sad result of a nation that allows a terrorist army to exist w/in its borders and heavily influence its population w/hate. They have been able to strike at Israel w/little to no fear of serious reprisal due to the fact they did so from w/in a soverign nation. They have the backing of Syria a serious player in wanting to continue the instablity of this region and Iran. The Israelies have done what they need to do... they are destroying the infrastructure of a mini army that is interwoven w/the Lebanese Civilian population on purpose. They (The terrorists) understand that indiv's will wail and the other arab nations will scream bloody murder when an human shield is killed in this conflict...and they (terrorists) do it often and well.
The Israelies are fighting a foe that is on par w/the Nazie dogma / beliefs.
NOTHING the Israelies agree to or concede will EVER be enough until they are all dead or living elsewhere. No peace agreement.... no land ceded...nothing. They wage all out war as a result. It isnt pretty and quess what.... 4million jews being butchered like animals wasnt ethier but the world sit by and let bloody happen.
I dont always agree w/them but by god I understand WHY they do what they do.
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Ok Nils,. you're the Israeli PM... exactly what do you say to the Hizbos in your negotiations?
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Originally posted by PonyDriver
Ok Nils,. you're the Israeli PM... exactly what do you say to the Hizbos in your negotiations?
I belive its your turn... I have answerd all your questions mr.. but you have done nothing but confront my views. I have heard nothing constructive comming out your end.
But hey..
I would give the Lebanese government 30 days to take full control of their area.
If that did not work, I would give them 14 days to evacuate everyone within 30-40km of the border with Israel.
After the 14 days all movement within that 30-40 km belt is a legitemate target.
When the Government in Lebanon alone or with UN help is ready to take control again they are free to move back in.
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Originally posted by -tronski-
If military power could solve an insurgency alone the British would've invaded Ireland to combat the IRA or destroyed Dublin's infrastructure...
Tronsky
They did and failed, research a guy called Michael Collins, he took the fight to the British, shame he was killed by his own guys after a dispute in the wording of the peace treaty.
Anyway as far as this topic goes, the biggest cancer in the middle East is Saudi Arabia.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Well.. there are about 100.000 that has not left the areas for some reason. Some have chosen to stay in their homes, but many of them are actually elders and disabled folks stuck in vilages and towns.
The UN relief coordinator Jan Egeland came home from Lebanon today and was interviewed on the news. He said there is an humanitarian disaster about to unfold and they are only allowed to send in 10 UN marked trucks a couple of times a day with medicine and food, but that is just scratching the surface. There are whole vilages that are cut off in the Bekar? valley... they cant go anywere. There are reports of bodys in the streets that has been there for over a week.
100,000 is alot of folks left behind. I have to admit I hadnt thought of the elderly and infirm when I made my....Well, they can just walk out statement...heh. For those folks, it would be hard to just walk out if not impossible.
would give the Lebanese government 30 days to take full control of their area.
If that did not work, I would give them 14 days to evacuate everyone within 30-40km of the border with Israel.
After the 14 days all movement within that 30-40 km belt is a legitemate target.
When the Government in Lebanon alone or with UN help is ready to take control again they are free to move back in.
The IDF did give the Lebanese time to move out, not 2 weeks, but they did give notice and maybe could/should have given more notice to get the elderly and infirm to safety.
Overall, I dont see anything there that I find objectionable, or any reason this couldnt have been the plan. Of course there are always things that influence these types of descions that we arent privy to and most likely will never know.
Good job Nilsen.....now fax this to the Israeli Prime Minister asap please. :D
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Originally posted by Nilsen
I would give the Lebanese government 30 days to take full control of their area.
If that did not work, I would give them 14 days to evacuate everyone within 30-40km of the border with Israel.
After the 14 days all movement within that 30-40 km belt is a legitemate target.
When the Government in Lebanon alone or with UN help is ready to take control again they are free to move back in.
That`s 44 days to regroup, resupply and reinforce. Not to mention relocating strategic assets elsewhere and plenty of time to do major guerilla strikes on Israel.
That`s not an Israeli PM position..................... .more like a U.N. "let`s talk about it for a year or two" stance. :)
Why give your enemy a break or in this case a total upper hand?
Might as well just send the Hezzies a detailed map of targets that you plan to hit in 44 days.
I don`t really beleive that there is anyone in the area of the strikes that is unaware of it being a war zone and target zone.
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Originally posted by Elfie
Good job Nilsen.....now fax this to the Israeli Prime Minister asap please. :D
Dont want "them" to trace me.
"They" are everywere.
hang on... someone is at the door...
:D
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Originally posted by Elfie
100,000 is alot of folks left behind. I have to admit I hadnt thought of the elderly and infirm when I made my....Well, they can just walk out statement...heh. For those folks, it would be hard to just walk out if not impossible.
The IDF did give the Lebanese time to move out, not 2 weeks, but they did give notice and maybe could/should have given more notice to get the elderly and infirm to safety.
Texas evacuated 1.3 million people from south Texas between september 17th and september 22. About 1.8 million fled the hurricane Rita area (tX and LA) in just under a week.
Several thousand tourist (25k+ americans) were evacuated from Beruit by ships and planes in a few days. I wonder how long it would take to evacuate a S. Lebanon if they really tried.
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Originally posted by Krusher
Texas evacuated 1.3 million people from south Texas between september 17th and september 22. About 1.8 million fled the hurricane Rita area (tX and LA) in just under a week.
Several thousand tourist (25k+ americans) were evacuated from Beruit by ships and planes in a few days. I wonder how long it would take to evacuate a S. Lebanon if they really tried.
How long did it take from the time Israel warned Lebanon to evacuate via official channels after the two soldiers were kidnapped until the bombs started to fall?
I may remember wong, but I belive they started shortly after they were kidnapped. The warnings and leaflets didnt fall until well into the conflict.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Dont want "them" to trace me.
"They" are everywere.
hang on... someone is at the door...
:D
:rofl
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Originally posted by Nilsen
I may remember wong,
I believe you remember wight :)
it was probably hours prior, but the bottom line is they have had 2 weeks now.
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Originally posted by Krusher
I believe you remember wight :)
it was probably hours prior, but the bottom line is they have had 2 weeks now.
wight thats what i whought :D
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Originally posted by Toad
Follow up questions. If Israel announced it was invading Lebanon with the intention of removing the government and replacing it with one that did not harbor terrorists (as in US v Taliban) would they get support? If not, why not?
I think that there would be significant resistance to an overthrow of the Lebanses government:
40% of Lebanon's population is Christian.
Lebanon is also home to 2 Universities with close ties to the US: The Lebanese-American University and the American University of Beirut. They receive funding from prominent US figures and enjoy close ties with US universities.
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Lebanon is not so much a democracy as a federation of states. In the south, Hezbollah runs the show. Overthrowing the whole government, I personally think, would be a bad idea.
Wiping Hezbollah off the map would be nice, but there needs to be targeting of the financial institutions and military shipments coming from Iran and Syria...
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There's no doubt Lebanon is harboring terrorists though and the Lebanese army has studiously avoided any action against Hezbollah.
Doesn't make them look very good in that respect.
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Hezbollah is a vested elected part of the "legitimate" govt. of Lebanon. That and the obvious lack of action by the govt. (Army) indicates that even though they are in the minority, they are the controlling factor.
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Ya gotta really not have much of a life if your purpose for existing is to mass in southern Lebanon to poke at Israel.
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HOLY MOLY
NILSEN!!!!!!!!!
1) Hezzbaboobs is DEDICATED to WIPING OUT ISREAL in TOTAL
Do you not agree?
they state it very clearly
SO,,,,there is NO negotiating
Theey gave Lebanon..AND the UN 6 years to stop the suicude pizza parlors/busses ..and random rocket attacks..
Tiem has come to KILL SWORN ENEMY
Just answer the one question please
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Originally posted by Krusher
I believe you remember wight :)
it was probably hours prior, but the bottom line is they have had 2 weeks now.
You remember wrong.
Targeting houses in the towns started only after a few days. IAF bombed a few roads and bridges in the hours after the kidnapping in an attempt to slow down and locate the kidnappers but it took a few days to disrupt the roads completly south of the Litany river (southern most part of Lebanon).
Major bombing of roads in Tyre (and Qana) area started only after the first rocket was fired at Haifa which was 5 days after the whole thing started. Even then roads were not completly blocked due to UN forces and refugees in Tyre. After about another week in which UN convoys were leaving Tyre along the coast the major bombing of that area started. And by the way, since the attacks on Tyre no rockets hit Haifa (a week ago).
edit:
I think a lot of the population decided not to leave since they thought this would be just another skirmish between Israel and the Hizballa that will end in a day or two. By the time the realized this is not the case it was getting more difficult.
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You are prolly right Bozon.
Have you gone awol? Get back to your unit son and stay low :)
What do you do anyway?
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and the wooosh goes over nilsens head
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Originally posted by BGBMAW
and the wooosh goes over nilsens head
you on crack?
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Originally posted by bozon
You remember wrong.
Targeting houses in the towns started only after a few days. IAF bombed a few roads and bridges in the hours after the kidnapping in an attempt to slow down and locate the kidnappers but it took a few days to disrupt the roads completly south of the Litany river (southern most part of Lebanon).
Major bombing of roads in Tyre (and Qana) area started only after the first rocket was fired at Haifa which was 5 days after the whole thing started. Even then roads were not completly blocked due to UN forces and refugees in Tyre. After about another week in which UN convoys were leaving Tyre along the coast the major bombing of that area started. And by the way, since the attacks on Tyre no rockets hit Haifa (a week ago).
edit:
I think a lot of the population decided not to leave since they thought this would be just another skirmish between Israel and the Hizballa that will end in a day or two. By the time the realized this is not the case it was getting more difficult.
I was refering to the warning Israel gave the Lebanese Gov prior to the initial attack (not the bombing of houses). I was under the impression that they warned them prior to initial attack on the roads and bridges. but I didn't see anything concrete in the first local press reports.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
You are prolly right Bozon.
Have you gone awol? Get back to your unit son and stay low :)
What do you do anyway?
Hizballa is not exhausting themselves. They finish firing by evening, go to sleep, get up late in the morning, drink coffee and get back to business around 9-10 am. (they also have other reasons not to operate at night )
We do the same thing, letting some of the men go back home and rest. The border is just 30 km from Haifa so it is a short drive. I'm not regular army, I did my service 6 years ago and I'm reserve now. I'm airforce.
Bozon
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can you not answer one question?
1) Do you believe Hezzaboobs are committed to the complete distruction of Isreal?
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Originally posted by bozon
Hizballa is not exhausting themselves. They finish firing by evening, go to sleep, get up late in the morning, drink coffee and get back to business around 9-10 am. (they also have other reasons not to operate at night )
We do the same thing, letting some of the men go back home and rest. The border is just 30 km from Haifa so it is a short drive. I'm not regular army, I did my service 6 years ago and I'm reserve now. I'm airforce.
Bozon
I meant what you do in the military? your job :)
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Originally posted by BGBMAW
can you not answer one question?
1) Do you believe Hezzaboobs are committed to the complete distruction of Isreal?
There.. you asked a porper question.
Yes Hezbollah may be commited to that. Whats your point?
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So..you say "May"..LMFAo..they have stated it in writting and in speech..many many times
So how do you in your mighty wisdom "negotiate" with the Hezzaboobs?
they gave them 6 years to STOP the attacks..they failed
you say..give them 30 days ...14 days... days...to clear out..blah blah blah....
Are you so dense ..they gave them 6 YEARS!!!!!
You are like the UN...more resolutions? Peace thru paperwork?
And..you cant even bring yoruself to say..THEY ARE COMMITED TO ISREALS DESTRUCTION...You have to say .."may"...
that shows your true colors to everyone here
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Originally posted by BGBMAW
Are you so dense
Thank you. I apreciate your input on my density.
Originally posted by BGBMAW
that shows your true colors to everyone here
Glad you have found my true colors.
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so you cant answer a direct question?
one more time......
So how do you "negotiate" with the Hezzaboobs?
Given that they have openly stated the total destruction of Isreal.
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Originally posted by BGBMAW
so you cant answer a direct question?
one more time......
So how do you "negotiate" with the Hezzaboobs?
Given that they have openly stated the total destruction of Isreal.
What is the point to your line of questioning? You are on and on about hizbollah. Nobody here are defending them. The issue is the civilians in Lebanon. There is a difference.
You have to talk to hizbollah at some point BGB. How? usually you talk or write.
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You need to talk to hezbollah too. They are a factor you can not ignore or shoot away. Negotiations are usually done with words, not artillery and airstrikes against them and their human sheilds.
Nilsen, you said we need to negotiate with the Hizzies... I'll ask you for the third time, what would you say to them, were you the Israeli PM?
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Originally posted by PonyDriver
Nilsen, you said we need to negotiate with the Hizzies... I'll ask you for the third time, what would you say to them, were you the Israeli PM?
I am not a politician, but like in any conflict you cant negotiate a cease fire with one side. Is that so incredibly hard to understand?
Again... the issue is not israels fight with hezbollah, but the civilians victims stuck in the middle.
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Im very interested to hear about your take on the situation and your solutions BGBMAW and Ponydriver...
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Nilsen you need to start speaking Ponydriverish to get your point across...
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"HARR HARR HAARRRHH HARRR!!"
?
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Originally posted by moot
Nilsen you need to start speaking Ponydriverish to get your point across...
:D
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How do you negotiate with a group who is DEDICTAED to WIPING YOU OUT?
Civilians....OK..SO the GOv of Lebanon..LET HIZZaboobs operate..They are a Puppet of IRAN
Any of that you disagree with?
there are 2 questions....Answer them
My point is there are NO Negotiations Hizzaboobs..You WIPE THEM OUT
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Originally posted by BGBMAW
How do you negotiate with a group who is DEDICTAED to WIPING YOU OUT?
Civilians....OK..SO the GOv of Lebanon..LET HIZZaboobs operate..They are a Puppet of IRAN
Any of that you disagree with?
there are 2 questions....Answer them
My point is there are NO Negotiations Hizzaboobs..You WIPE THEM OUT
You can degotiate a cease fire with any group. If you have been payin attention to recent news then even the iranian leaders are saying Hezbollah should stop now.
The government of Lebanon is a fragile one that has nothing official to do with hezbollah. Even Israel has in effect admitted as much since they regretted the death of the Lebanese soldiers.. if both were one entity they would not have done so. Im not blind, i see that there prolly are connections, but i belive the Lebanese government and the majority of their citizens wants to control their own land wothout hezbollah beeing a factor. Hezbollah is like a mafia that has its paws everywere in the country.
Lebanon is not a puppet of Iran, hezbollah is.
Please keep your pinky off the caps-lock please. Its rather annoying :p
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Dense
If you negotiate...that means you can find common ground..both can get somthing out of it..
WHat does Hizzaboobs-Iran-Syria want...Well they want the death of Isreal
What will you negotiate?
You sound liek you are so naive to think they want a "cease-fire"....thats so they dotn get completly blown apart...You really beleive that the Fanatic muslim scum will say..Ok .....We wuill stop lobbing rockets?
They were given 6 YEARS to stop this crap..UN didnt do it....Iran didnt do it..Lebanon..didnt plead for help
And yes..the leaders of Lebanon are PUPPETS
Why havent they cried out for help?
I know this may be to many ?s for you
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FWIW there WAS a cease fire just the other day. It lasted less than half a day when the hezbollah folks opened fire again and hit an Isreali tank.
As to the civies. Since hezbollah is a part of the dedicated govt. of lebanon it is a problem of the govt. of lebanon to deal with as well. Since the start of the actual combat the lebanese army has done what?
Since before the start of the combat the lebanese govt and army did what regarding the stockpile of THOUSANDS of rockets in their borders by hezbollah.
Who put the civilians in danger. Was it the Isrealis who were not bombing them before being attacked themselves.
It couldn't possibly be the hezbollah folks who use them as human shields in their attacks against Isreal... Naaaahhh It couldn't be them. It obviously has to be the Isreali's who selfishly arrainged to be attacked by hamas and hezbollah just so they could bomb, after warning, the population who seems to have no problem with hezbollah operating in their neighborhoods.
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BGBMAW, no offense intended.....have you ever considered a typing class? Your posts are kinda painful to try to read heh.
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What woudl you negotiate with Hezzboobs that is different then 6 years ago?
I know ..too many questions lets you not answer one of them.
So Ill keep it simple and CLEAN for you
Your wording is disgusting also...Hizzaboobs "May" want the total destruction of isrea"....There "probably" connections of iran "
You cant even acknowledge the death that theses muslim fanatic scum wan to spread. You are almost as bad as them in that regard. The EU is defntly a jew hater.
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Originally posted by Maverick
FWIW there WAS a cease fire just the other day. It lasted less than half a day when the hezbollah folks opened fire again and hit an Isreali tank.
Correction:
There never was a cease fire. The army decalred 48 hours in which they will stop all air strikes except launchers hunting while they investigate the Qana incident. The media inflated the story to a "cease fire" statement. Other operations went on both by the IDF and Hizballa (they switch from rockets to mortar fire on border settlements in this time span).
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It was reported here as a cease fire that had been violated when the tank was hit. Then it was reported that the Isreali forces resumed operations. Of course it's hard to get news any other way than the news. Thanks for the clarification.
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As I said before, the media reports are disgraceful. So much nonsense, misleading and flat out wrong information is broadcasted that it is no longer journalism - it's entertainment.
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Originally posted by bozon
As I said before, the media reports are disgraceful. So much nonsense, misleading and flat out wrong information is broadcasted that it is no longer journalism - it's entertainment.
heh it's been that way for awhile now ;)
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I see we have a winner in this debate..that would not be you nilsen
You strategy is weak..try to throw "witty" remarks....and dont answer the questions except with .. vague answers....sounds like the UE to me
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Nuke+Mideast divided by Dimond tip drill to get thru glass = Happy world
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Originally posted by BGBMAW
I see we have a winner in this debate..that would not be you nilsen
You strategy is weak..try to throw "witty" remarks....and dont answer the questions except with .. vague answers....sounds like the UE to me
Thx
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See rule #5
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You have to agree that place for Israel was poorly chosen.
MidEast!!!Great idea.
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Originally posted by Eagle Eye
Nuke+Mideast divided by Dimond tip drill to get thru glass = Happy world
Eagle Eye + 2 years of intensive therapy=human being
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If the Arabs stopped fighting, if the Arabs stopped plotting, it would mark the beginning of the end of the violence.
If the Israelis stopped fighting, it would mark the beginning of the end of Israel.
Anyone that sees a problem with the grand scheme of Israel's defensive practices(I say grand scheme because yes, mistakes have been made) has adopted, passively or overtly, the opinion that this nation has no place in the modern world. This stance is the new, kinder, gentler anti-semitism, plain and simple.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
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Originally posted by Neubob
If the Arabs stopped fighting, if the Arabs stopped plotting, it would mark the beginning of the end of the violence.
If the Israelis stopped fighting, it would mark the beginning of the end of Israel.
Anyone that sees a problem with the grand scheme of Israel's defensive practices(I say grand scheme because yes, mistakes have been made) has adopted, passively or overtly, the opinion that this nation has no place in the modern world. This stance is the new, kinder, gentler anti-semitism, plain and simple.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Very true sir.
Both sides have point.Arabs pissed because someone gave away their land.Jews pissed because they have no-were to go.
There is no solution really.
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Why is everyone crying about the poor civilian victims??? There are NO civilian VICTIMS in Lebanon. These people KNOW who the terrorist are and let them use their homes to store weapons. They let them set up rocket launchers in their backyards and fire them off.
If these people don't want Isreal to bomb and shell them maybe they should police their own house and get rid of the people that are making their homes a target.
Negotiate with them??? That's what is happening. They are being negotiated with the only way they will understand...on the receiving end of a BIG gun.
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Hornet...
Your statement is false.. there are plenty of civilian victims in Lebanon.
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Originally posted by KgB
You have to agree that place for Israel was poorly chosen.
MidEast!!!Great idea.
Did you even remotely think before you had diarhea of the fingers with this comment? :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Hornet...
Your statement is false.. there are plenty of civilian victims in Lebanon.
I BELIVE my statement is 100% accurate. I have no sympathy for those people. These are the same people that were dancing in the streets on 9/11.
You think I'm going to cry for someone who lets a terrorist set up a rocket launcher in their backyard, and then has their house targeted as a launch site, and blown up??? Piss on em.
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Originally posted by Hornet33
I BELIVE my statement is 100% accurate. I have no sympathy for those people. These are the same people that were dancing in the streets on 9/11.
You think I'm going to cry for someone who lets a terrorist set up a rocket launcher in their backyard, and then has their house targeted as a launch site, and blown up??? Piss on em.
Not even the Israelis themselves or your own government belives that there are no innocent victims in Lebanon. On what grounds do you base your statement?
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As neubob says:
If the Arabs stopped fighting, if the Arabs stopped plotting, it would mark the beginning of the end of the violence.
If the Israelis stopped fighting, it would mark the beginning of the end of Israel.
That is the crux of the issue. Israel would cease to exist if they failed to defend themselves. Whether you or I or any Israeli citizen feels uncomfortable with the IDF's methods is neither here nor there. It's all very well sitting in safe comfortable liberal countries like Norway and criticising Israel's actions. Israel is a tiny country surrounded by countries ruled by despots and extremists sworn to destroy it and peopled by fanatics willing to try.
You need to ask yourself, how you would feel if you lived in a country like Israel.
The current Israeli strategy is obvious, go into Lebanon and destroy as much of Hizbollah as possible and create a buffer zone to be filled with a multinational force as soon as the ceasefire is forced on them.
It is a tragedy that innocent civilians are dying. I heard that Lebanese neighbour of my Mother's lost her entire family in a raid. That is a tragedy on any level. But it's also war and as long as people want to make war on Israel. This will continue.
Israel is not America or Britain or whoever. It does not attack other countries in order reform them or protect oil supplies. It's only strategic interest is to survive.
When Israel is left in peace there will be peace.
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Nilsen,
He gave you his grounds for that statement and you even quoted it. :rolleyes:
He's just taken a stand that's 180 degrees from yours, it kinda ballances out.
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Originally posted by Bodhi
Did you even remotely think before you had diarhea of the fingers with this comment? :rolleyes:
They were given land were they not?
"Terrorism" started RIGHT after State of Israel was proclaimed.
You woulndt like if Alaska was given back to bunch of drunken Russians would you?Or lets give Britain back to Rome.Half Russia back to Mongolians.
Arabs call UN "terrorists" and i see why.
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Originally posted by Hornet33
I BELIVE my statement is 100% accurate. I have no sympathy for those people. These are the same people that were dancing in the streets on 9/11.
You think I'm going to cry for someone who lets a terrorist set up a rocket launcher in their backyard, and then has their house targeted as a launch site, and blown up??? Piss on em.
How Christian of you,what a nice guy
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His statements are about as Christian as yours are Jewish kgb.
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Originally posted by Maverick
His statements are about as Christian as yours are Jewish kgb.
Yeah thats true:)
Well Christians killed more people than any other religion.
Proud to be christian:aok
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Not even the Israelis themselves or your own government belives that there are no innocent victims in Lebanon. On what grounds do you base your statement?
I never claimed to speak for the Israelis or the United States. I mearly stated my own personal beliefs. I have no sympathy for those people. Their entire culture has brought this on them. How many Jews have strapped TNT to their bodies and blown up a bus full of Muslims???? How many Americans have done it???
The Israelis are faced with the extinction of their entire race if they stand down and do nothing. The leaders of Hezbolla, the president of Iran, Bin Laden, and a whole cast of other Islamic crazies have PUBLICLY cried out for the utter destruction and elimination of Israel and all Jews everywhere on the planet. Now people all over the world are crying, saying that the Jewish response to this current crisis is too much. Bull$%^&!!!!!
How would you feel if someone kidnapped your children?? Would you be willing to kill to get your children back?? Those 2 soldiers that got taken aren't just soldiers to the Jewish people, they are SONS of Israel, and Israel is willing to kill to get their sons back. I applaud the Israelis total commitment to getting them back, and giving the rest of the world the finger if they don't like it. I only WISH America had the same amount of balls they do.
So you tell me WHY I should feel any sort of sympathy towards a group of people that support anouther group of people (terrorist) that belive Genocide is not only OK, but Gods will??? These extreamist are the most dangerous people on the planet. They don't care who they kill in order to see their twisted version of Gods will brought to reality. Do you want to live in a world where a young woman is put to death by the state because she killed a man in SELF DEFENSE who was trying to rape her???? That crazy bastard in Iran does...they just did it.
I have nothing against Islam, it's a peacefull religion, but the people the Israelis are dealing with don't belive in the peacefull version of Islam do they?? I don't blame the Israelis one little bit for using everything in their considerable arsenal to defend themselves and to get their sons back.
Like I said in my other post, If those people over there would police the crazies in their midst, they wouldn't have the Israelis bombing their towns and cities. They brought it on themselves and they are getting what they deserve. This is my opinion and I belive I am 100% on target...prove me wrong and I might listen.
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Originally posted by KgB
Yeah thats true:)
Well Christians killed more people than any other religion.
Proud to be christian:aok
Unless you count communism/atheism which has killed more people than everything else combined.
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Originally posted by Hornet33
How many Jews have strapped TNT to their bodies and blown up a bus full of Muslims???? How many Americans have done it???
the Israelis are faced with the extinction of their entire race if they stand down and do nothing.How would you feel if someone kidnapped your children??
Aha-ha-ha!:rofl
Americans never killed civilians nor did Jews:rofl
Omg,i cant stop....
"extinction of their entire race" -awwww
Those inocent Israely children,it melts my heart,Israel teaches love and peace....but never hate
(http://[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/N22/Hate20Kids-1.jpg)[/IMG]:lol:lol
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Originally posted by lukster
Unless you count communism/atheism which has killed more people than everything else combined.
Commies are cristians as well(mostly) my friend.
You mean Nazis???
Atheism???How the hell did you come up with this one?
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Originally posted by KgB
Commies are cristians as well(mostly) my friend.
You mean Nazis???
Atheism???How the hell did you come up with this one?
I'm talking about Stalin who murdered at least 20 million, probably a lot more. Atheism was the official "religion" of the USSR during his reign of terror. I think the numbers of those murdered by communists go well above the 100 million mark. Doesn't that disturb you?
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Originally posted by lukster
I'm talking about Stalin who murdered at least 20 million, probably a lot more. Atheism was the official "religion" of the USSR during his reign of terror. I think the numbers of those murdered by communists go well above the 100 million mark. Doesn't that disturb you?
Atheism was official after revolution to beginning of ww2.
After that Churches reopenned.
They have a saying "there are no atheists on battlefield"
You have any data on those 100 million?I'm curios
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Originally posted by KgB
Atheism was official after revolution to beginning of ww2.
After that Churches reopenned.
They have a saying "there are no atheists on battlefield"
You have any data on those 100 million?I'm curios
Maybe you could come up with some figures on how many people were murdered by Christians?
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Originally posted by Elfie
Maybe you could come up with some figures on how many people were murdered by Christians?
quick check on wikipedia
" it is estimated some 3 000 000 people has been killed because of heresy in the Medieval and Early Modern Europe"
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Originally posted by Elfie
Maybe you could come up with some figures on how many people were murdered by Christians?
Let's make it easy,we will take 20th sentury only.
Let's make it even easyer-ww2 took 60 million lifes.
Add 2000 years of christianity with it's crusades and wars.
Christianity is
"Believe what i say or i'll hurt you"
kind of religion.
Praise the Lord gentelmen,or you go to hell.But he loves you anyway.
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Originally posted by KgB
Let's make it easy,we will take 20th sentury only.
Let's make it even easyer-ww2 took 60 million lifes.
Add 2000 years of christianity with it's crusades and wars.
Christianity is
"Believe what i say or i'll hurt you"
kind of religion.
Praise the Lord gentelmen,or you go to hell.But he loves you anyway.
I can cite for you many that will list the death toll at over 100 million at the hands of communists. I'm not talking about those killed in war. I'm talking about those citizens murdered by their own governments. Governments that viewed and view Christianity and religion in general as competition to be eliminated one way or another.
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Originally posted by KgB
Let's make it easy,we will take 20th sentury only.
Let's make it even easyer-ww2 took 60 million lifes.
Add 2000 years of christianity with it's crusades and wars.
Christianity is
"Believe what i say or i'll hurt you"
kind of religion.
Praise the Lord gentelmen,or you go to hell.But he loves you anyway.
Are you saying Christianity is at fault for 60 million deaths during WWII?
Christianity is NOT *Believe what I say or I will hurt you*. Christianity, or being a Christian is to try to be Christ-like, to follow His teachings, to have a personal relationship with Him.
To my knowledge, the Bible does not say, Praise the Lord or you will go to Hell. It does say: John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. Other passages in the Bible deal with the consequences of non-repentance of sin. Going to Hell is a direct consequence of non-repentance.
Being a Christian does not mean that I am without fault, or without sin. Being a Christian does mean that when I have made mistakes (ie sin) that I pray and ask forgiveness for those sins, and I ask for the strength and wisdom to not make the same mistake again.
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Originally posted by KgB
Aha-ha-ha!:rofl
Americans never killed civilians nor did Jews:rofl
Omg,i cant stop....
"extinction of their entire race" -awwww
Those inocent Israely children,it melts my heart,Israel teaches love and peace....but never hate
(http://[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/N22/Hate20Kids-1.jpg)[/IMG]:lol:lol
The big difference, moy daragoy tavarish, is that the Israelis end the conflicts, they do not start them. I defy you to give me an example of an Israeli 9/11 against arab targets. Another difference is that the Arabs are not fighting for their lives. They are fighting for domination. The Iasraelis, aggressive and cold-blooded, just wan to live another day.
I've been a Russian all my life, and nothing gives me more shame than the anti-semtic heritage that courses through my blood. Apparently, some people have remained satisfied in staying the course of their ancestors.
Pazor.
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Originally posted by vorticon
quick check on wikipedia
" it is estimated some 3 000 000 people has been killed because of heresy in the Medieval and Early Modern Europe"
Not gonna excuse that, was no excuse for it.
It doesnt come close to even the numbers of people Stalin had killed. Add in the ALL of the Crusades and I bet it still doesnt equal Stalin's kill total.
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Yeah...the Israelis are really brutal in their treatment of their enemies.
Despite the fact that they've captured thousands of their most violent and murderous terrorist enemies, in the entire history of the nation of Israel they've carried out only one execution...
...that of Adolf Eichmann.
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Originally posted by Neubob
The big difference, moy daragoy tavarish, is that the Israelis end the conflicts, they do not start them. I defy you to give me an example of an Israeli 9/11 against arab targets. Another difference is that the Arabs are not fighting for their lives. They are fighting for domination. The Iasraelis, aggressive and cold-blooded, just wan to live another day.
I've been a Russian all my life, and nothing gives me more shame than the anti-semtic heritage that courses through my blood. Apparently, some people have remained satisfied in staying the course of their ancestors.
Pazor.
Moy dorogoy grazhdanin,the difference is that Israel is the starter of all conflicts in MidEast.Conflicts"terrorism" started right after Jews were given land on Arabs teritory,did it not?
Where were you Russian anyway?
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Originally posted by Shuckins
Yeah...the Israelis are really brutal in their treatment of their enemies.
Despite the fact that they've captured thousands of their most violent and murderous terrorist enemies, in the entire history of the nation of Israel they've carried out only one execution...
...that of Adolf Eichmann.
Define "terrorist" please
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Originally posted by Elfie
Are you saying Christianity is at fault for 60 million deaths during WWII?
Christianity is NOT *Believe what I say or I will hurt you*. Christianity, or being a Christian is to try to be Christ-like, to follow His teachings, to have a personal relationship with Him.
To my knowledge, the Bible does not say, Praise the Lord or you will go to Hell. It does say: John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. Other passages in the Bible deal with the consequences of non-repentance of sin. Going to Hell is a direct consequence of non-repentance.
Being a Christian does not mean that I am without fault, or without sin. Being a Christian does mean that when I have made mistakes (ie sin) that I pray and ask forgiveness for those sins, and I ask for the strength and wisdom to not make the same mistake again.
You do know that we worship a half naked bleeding jew nailed to wooden cross dont you?Even smartest nation an a planet(jews) do not accept Christ as son of God.So jews condamned to go to hell for not accepting Christ?
You know only Christians have hell?Not jewdaism,budism,islam.
It is "believe what i say or you go to hell".
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Originally posted by Elfie
Not gonna excuse that, was no excuse for it.
It doesnt come close to even the numbers of people Stalin had killed. Add in the ALL of the Crusades and I bet it still doesnt equal Stalin's kill total.
And how many did he killed exactly?
Hitler was Christian,60 million deaths later...well you know
Did you know that Stalin went to seminary school?
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Originally posted by KgB
Moy dorogoy ...whatever,the difference is that Israel is the starter of all conflicts in MidEast.Conflicts"terrorism" started right after Jews were given land on Arabs teritory,did it not?
Well, in just the major wars in that region.
In 1948 the Arabs attacked Israel immediately after Israel became a state.
In 1956 the Israeli's attacked Egypt in the Sinai and Gaza Strip after a series of cross border raids by the Egytians with subsequent Israeli reprisals.
In 1967 Israel launched a pre-emptive strike against the Egyptian forces that were massing in the Sinai just across the border from Israel.
The war of attrition that ended in 1970 was instigated by Egypt as a way to win back the Sinai.
In 1973 Israel was planning another pre-emptive strike but due to political pressure waited until Egypt and Syria both attacked.
The invasion of Lebanon in 1982 was preceded by an assasination attempt on Israel's ambassador to the UK (Shlomo Argov) and by PLO artillery attacks on Israeli population centers in northern Israel from southern Lebanon.
This is information that is readily available. As you can see, every major conflict was either directly instigated by the Arabs or caused by a series of Arab actions against Israel.
I have intentionally made each conflict as brief as possible. An indepth review of history on any of those conflicts would be worth of their own thread. Those are the basics in a very small nutshell ;)
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KgB,
How's this for a definition:
One of the terrorists whose release was demanded by the kidnappers of the two Israeli soldiers a month ago is the very embodiment of the term "terrorist."
He and some fellow terrorists slipped into a Jewish settlement at Nahariyah and kidnapped a father and his 8 year old son. The wife of the victim hid in the attic of their home, hand tightly clamped over the mouth of her one year old baby.
The father and his son were taken to a nearby beach on the Mediterranean and summarily executed, without mercy. Some time later, the mother, concluding that the terrorists had finally left, finally got up to go to call for help, only to discover that she had accidentally smothered her baby.
Hope you're not going to use the old "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" argument.
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Originally posted by Elfie
Not gonna excuse that, was no excuse for it.
It doesnt come close to even the numbers of people Stalin had killed. Add in the ALL of the Crusades and I bet it still doesnt equal Stalin's kill total.
Calling atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair colour.
Stalin and the other communists didn't kill people because they were religious. The didn't kill them because they weren't atheist.
They killed 'em because it was either convenient (mass starvation) or because they represented or possibly could represent a threat to their regime. Of course, this can frequently be said about other mass murders, in which belief in some particular God or gods is used as a moral justification hiding a much larger political/military/personal objective.
There's been lots of calls on God in relation to the mass slaughter of 'enemies of God'. The Islamic militants are the ones grinding the axe at this point in time. Before that, it's been the Christians, the Aztecs, the Romans and what have you.
Compared to that, calls to kill the 'enemies of the non existant deity we lack any belief in" are lacking. Calls to kill 'enemies of the state" have generall been well heeded however.
Distinction, laides and gentlemen.
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Originally posted by KgB
And how many did he killed exactly?
Hitler was Christian,60 million deaths later...well you know
Did you know that Stalin went to seminary school?
Hitler was not Christian.
Seminary school in and of itself does not make one a Christian. While Stalin did attend a seminary, at some point he abandoned those beliefs and took up Marxism.
Neither one of those men tryed to be Christ-like, neither followed Christ's teachings. Without those first 2, a personal relationship with Him is impossible. Hence, neither were Christians.
Just a few examples of the things Christ taught from the book of Luke.
Luk 6:27 But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
Luk 6:28 bless those who curse you, and pray for those who despitefully use you.
Luk 6:29 And to him who strikes you on the one cheek, also offer the other. And to him who takes away your garment, do not forbid your tunic also.
Luk 6:30 Give to everyone who asks of you, and from him who takes away your goods, do not ask them again.
Luk 6:31 And as you desire that men should do to you, you do also to them likewise.
I dont believe Stalin or Hitler followed any of those and thats just a sample of what Christ taught.
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Originally posted by Elfie
Well, in just the major wars in that region.
In 1948 the Arabs attacked Israel immediately after Israel became a state.
I have intentionally made each conflict as brief as possible. An indepth review of history on any of those conflicts would be worth of their own thread. Those are the basics in a very small nutshell ;)
Thanks for quick response sir.Well according to your logic you wouldnt mind if previos owners of your house asked you to share with them or should i say just moved in without asking?
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Originally posted by Elfie
I dont believe Stalin or Hitler followed any of those and thats just a sample of what Christ taught.
None of us followes what Christ tought us sir(according to Bible),thats what should bother us most,but it doesnt.
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Originally posted by Shuckins
KgB,
How's this for a definition:
One of the terrorists whose release was demanded by the kidnappers of the two Israeli soldiers a month ago is the very embodiment of the term "terrorist."
He and some fellow terrorists slipped into a Jewish settlement at Nahariyah and kidnapped a father and his 8 year old son. The wife of the victim hid in the attic of their home, hand tightly clamped over the mouth of her one year old baby.
The father and his son were taken to a nearby beach on the Mediterranean and summarily executed, without mercy. Some time later, the mother, concluding that the terrorists had finally left, finally got up to go to call for help, only to discover that she had accidentally smothered her baby.
Hope you're not going to use the old "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" argument.
Sir please,i can find tons of unproven stories like these.
The air strike on Libya
On April 15, 1986 US war planes bombed the Libyan cities of Tripoli and Benghazi. They destroyed the home of Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi and killed at least 30 civilians, including many children. Gaddafi himself, the main target of the air strike, was not hurt.
Two hours later President Ronald Reagan justified the unprecedented attack on a sovereign country and its head of state in a national television address. The US, Reagan claimed, had "direct, precise and irrefutable" proof that Libya was responsible for a bomb blast in a West Berlin discotheque. The explosion 10 days earlier at the disco La Belle, a favorite nightspot for US soldiers, had killed three people and injured 200.
Since November of 1997 five defendants have been on trial in a Berlin court for their alleged involvement in the La Belle attack. But in the course of more than half a year the case has proceeded very slowly. ZDF television, which carried out its own investigation into the case, explained why in the August 25 documentary produced by its political magazine Frontal.
What the German documentary reveals
The Frontal report arrives at the following conclusions:
1) The lead defendant presently on trial, Yasser Chraidi, is very possibly innocent, and is being used as a scapegoat by German and American intelligence services.
2) At least one of the defendants, Musbah Eter, has been working for the CIA over many years.
3) Some of the key suspects have not appeared in court, because they are being protected by Western intelligence services.
4) At least one of those, Mohammed Amairi, is an agent of Mossad, the Israeli secret service.
The man charged with being the mastermind of the La Belle attack, 38-year-old Yasser Chraidi, was a driver at the Libyan embassy in East Berlin in 1986. He later moved to Lebanon, from whence he was extradited to Germany in May 1996.
Frontal interviewed the two Lebanese responsible for the extradition of Chraidi: the former public prosecutor Mounif Oueidat and his deputy Mrad Azoury. Both confirm that the German authorities used deceit to have Chraidi extradited.
According to Azoury, he received no evidence that Chraidi was actually involved in the attack; there were only "hints." Oueidat states that the Germans showed tremendous interest in getting Chraidi. "The Americans were behind this demand," he says. "This was obvious. They spurred on the Germans to speed up the extradition."
Eventually Chraidi, declared to be a "top terrorist," was flown to Germany in a spectacular security operation. But a Berlin judge found the evidence presented by the prosecution so weak, he threatened to release Chraidi within three weeks unless more proof was presented.
At this point another man was brought into the case, who, according to Frontal, "was obviously supposed to be spared by the prosecution until then." On September 9, 1996, the very day the Berlin judge threatened to release Chraidi, Berlin public prosecutor Detlev Mehlis, Berlin police inspector Uwe Wilhelms and a Mr. Winterstein of the German Federal Intelligence Service (BND) met Musbah Eter in the Mediterranean island state of Malta.
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You do know that we worship a half naked bleeding jew nailed to wooden cross dont you?Even smartest nation an a planet(jews) do not accept Christ as son of God.
I dont worship *half naked bleeding jew*. I dont worship a figure on a cross. I worship Christ, the son of God, born of the virgin Mary.
You are correct that many Jews dont accept Christ as the son of God.
So jews condamned to go to hell for not accepting Christ?
Not just Jews, all people who dont accept Christ.
You know only Christians have hell?Not jewdaism,budism,islam.
I'm no expert on all the world's religions, if that is true though......what happens to the folks that dont covert to those religions after death?
It is "believe what i say or you go to hell".
It's not believe what *I* say, it's believe what He says. I think thats a distinction that you are missing. :)
In a previous post you said:
"Believe what i say or i'll hurt you"
If you truly believe that, then you dont understand what it means to be a Christian.
I know.....some things done by those professing to be Christians have been wrong, things like the Spanish Inquistion for instance. I think even the Catholic Church acknowledges that. Again, even Christians are sinners. That is one of the basic precepts of my faith, that I am in fact a sinner and need the Salvation offered by Christ's sacrifice on the cross.
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Originally posted by KgB
Thanks for quick response sir.Well according to your logic you wouldnt mind if previos owners of your house asked you to share with them or should i say just moved in without asking?
*edit* Nevermind my first response. Guess I was kinda dense when I first read your response. :D
Neither the Jews nor the Arabs were satisfied with the way the land was divided up. The Jews just didnt show up the day Israel became a nation, they were already there, and had been moving there for decades prior to Israel being founded.
The Jews also have a long history of living in that area, all the way back to when the land was known as Canaan.
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Originally posted by KgB
None of us followes what Christ tought us sir(according to Bible),thats what should bother us most,but it doesnt.
I am the first to admit, I fail at following what Christ taught as well, all the time. That's where God's forgiveness comes into play. The difference between Hitler and myself for example is that I do try to follow Christ's teachings. Any Christian will try. Hitler and Stalin did not.
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Originally posted by KgB
And who told you that sir?
Google up Samir Kuntar.
He admits his complicity in that incident btw.
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Calling atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair colour.
My apologies, wasnt trying to imply that atheism is a religion. :)
Rest of your post is very accurate imo. Many, many times throughout history people have called upon their god(s) to help destroy their enemies, or slaughtered their enemies in the name of thier god(s).
I just cant figure out why atheists dont do that too. :D
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Originally posted by Elfie
Can you expand on that please? I'm not sure what you are getting at.
Well if you insist sir.Arabs were there,jews came,proclamed Israel.
Terrorism began ever since.
Or i live in a house,somebody tells you to move in without asking me.
I hate you ever since.
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Originally posted by Elfie
I dont worship *half naked bleeding jew*. I dont worship a figure on a cross. I worship Christ, the son of God, born of the virgin Mary.
You are correct that many Jews dont accept Christ as the son of God.
Not just Jews, all people who dont accept Christ.
So jews are going to hell for not accepting Christ sir,yes or now????:lol
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Originally posted by Toad
Google up Samir Kuntar.
He admits his complicity in that incident btw.
Thank you sir,very interesting
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Well if you insist sir.Arabs were there,jews came,proclamed Israel.
Who was in the area known as Palestine *first* is subject to debate. It is known and generally accepted that the Roman's conquered Israel and Jew's were living there then.
Even in the Bible on multiple occassions the Jews were conquered and taken into slavery by various civilizations long before the Roman's appeared on the scene.
Yet, every time, the Jews eventually made it back to their homeland.
Terrorism began ever since.
No arguing that point. :D
Or i live in a house,somebody tells you to move in without asking me.
I hate you ever since.
That last part is a choice. You can choose to hate me or.....you can choose a different path, one that isnt filled with hate. One possible choice is:
Luk 6:29 And to him who strikes you on the one cheek, also offer the other. And to him who takes away your garment, do not forbid your tunic also.
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Originally posted by KgB
Thank you sir,very interesting
Kuntar should have been put down like a rabid dog. I have no idea why the Israelis didn't give him the death sentence and prompt execution.
IMO.
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Originally posted by Elfie
I am the first to admit, I fail at following what Christ taught as well, all the time. That's where God's forgiveness comes into play. The difference between Hitler and myself for example is that I do try to follow Christ's teachings. Any Christian will try. Hitler and Stalin did not.
I don't think we even deserve to be forgiven.
It's like i can get drunk and go 100 mph thru highly populated area keeping in mind that i can go to church and confess,and everything will be forgiven.
Same thing happens next day.
That's what we are,I'm sorry that's what i am.I am sure there are plenty people people like me.Capitalize on car accidents,wet floors,peoples emotions....i do believe it's time for judgment day,don't you?
Only if HE is really up there......i'm beggining to wonder
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Originally posted by KgB
So jews are going to hell for not accepting Christ sir,yes or now????:lol
Yes. From the book of 1st John. Notice it doesnt say, unless you are a Jew, then you are exempt.
1Jo 5:11 And this is the record, that God has given to us everlasting life, and this life is in His Son.
1Jo 5:12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
1Jo 5:13 I have written these things to you who believe on the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have everlasting life, and that you may believe on the name of the Son of God.
That's it for me this evening. I'll check back again tomorrow for responses. :)
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Originally posted by KgB
I don't think we even deserve to be forgiven.
It's like i can get drunk and go 100 mph thru highly populated area keeping in mind that i can go to church and confess,and everything will be forgiven.
Same thing happens next day.
That's what we are,I'm sorry that's what i am.I am sure there are plenty people people like me.Capitalize on car accidents,wet floors,peoples emotions....i do believe it's time for judgment day,don't you?
Only if HE is really up there......i'm beggining to wonder
One last post this evening. No...I really mean it this time. :D
If I go rob a 7-11 tonight, then ask God's forgiveness, then tomorrow I rob another 7-11......was I truly repentant for the first sin? My answer to that is, no.
I know God exists. I have felt His prescence on more than one occassion. I dont know how to describe what I felt. What I felt left no doubt in my mind that it was Gods prescence.
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Originally posted by KgB
Moy dorogoy grazhdanin,the difference is that Israel is the starter of all conflicts in MidEast.Conflicts"terrorism" started right after Jews were given land on Arabs teritory,did it not?
Where were you Russian anyway?
Interesting perspective, Komitechik... The Israelis' biggest crime was coming into existence. I could draw parallels, but it would be silly at this point. Our Israeli friends truly had no business being born when their Arab neighbors were so busy improving mankind and making this planet a better place to be alive.
The Israelis (read, the Jews) should have just laid down and died at the hands of the Germans, at the hands of the Arabs, and at the hands of every other soveriegn powers since their inception. As history has taught, conquest justifies the cause of the conquouer. Otherwise, you should take up issue with the white man takening north America, and, for that matter, every other parcel of land in the Western Hemisphere...
You say Israel started everything, KGB. Perhaps you are right, but only if your model of reality does not include Jewish oppression that goes back nearlt 5 millenia. I'm not sure why, but it's a common European trait to ignore this, to pretend the actions of the Jews, in their own defense, are not justified, given the past. I suppose this makes life easier and more guilt-free. The Israelis, the Hebrews, have suffered more than any sect of Islam, any group of arabs, indeed, any group at all. And yet, they continue to fight. And yet, the world at large continues to side with the barberic majority.
I am Russian, KGB. I was born there, I lived there, even after moving to the US, I continue to command the language, I even took a chance and married a Russian Girl. Nevertheless, I will always be a Jew, through and through. Being Russian was difficult. Being a Jew has proven more difficult.
Fighters and survivors to the end, they are the the most stubborn of all enduring ethnicities, and I am proud to be one of them. They have made a vow to the world to stand up to all varieties of bullying, and I stand behind them, every one of them, so long as there is breath in my lungs. An enemy is an enemy, not an ally in disguise, as the West tends to percieve the Arab. The Israeli does not accept this illusion, and so, here we have our current conflict.
The thing is, I seriously doubt that most people who claim that Israel is overstepping its bound is, himself, nuetral. Quite to the contrary, I believe that the pervayors of this opinion are more intelligent than we give then credit. They are smart and knowledgble people, who understand that capitulation on the part of Israel would mark yet another strike against the Jewish populations of the world. Israel fights not just for itself, but for the legtiimacy of all Jews. Without Israel, the jewish peope lose almost all grounding with modern history and politics. Besides Kashrut, there is nothing that would keep this exceedingly talented and intelligent ethnicity from fading into non-existence than the endurance of a Jewish State. Hitler tried it once. He failed. Now, as the tag-line goes, NEVER AGAIN.
NEVER AGAIN... Not in the US, not in Europe, and certainly, not in Israel. Hate all you want, just don't lie to me, or, much less, yourself, about how you feel about the pesky, introverted, un-killable jew.
So long as there is Jewish presence in the middle east, they should be ready to give blood, as well as spill it, prodigiously, until victory is assured. That is the only language that the Arab understands. That is the only language that will be heard. That is the only language that will make a difference until the fight is over.
This, Moy daragoy, is the sad fact, and no UN cease-fire will ever stand in the way of what has become the definition of a fight to the death. For anyone that persists in thinking that Israel is on the offensive, or, better yet, that Israel has no business existing to begin with, I have no words.
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The World as we know it will no longer exist after December 21st 2012.
Cancel Christmas.
Mac
Oh BTW...
IN
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Originally posted by Neubob
Interesting perspective, Komitechik... The Israelis' biggest crime was coming into existence. I could draw parallels, but it would be silly at this point. Our Israeli friends truly had no business being born when their Arab neighbors were so busy improving mankind and making this planet a better place to be alive.
I never said that Israel shouldnt exist,if it's already there.
What i meant is Arabs do have point,do they not sir?
They hate Israel for apearing on their territory all of a sudden,and they hate US for supporting Israel.
You do realize that this war will last for 10-30 years until US economy is exhaustet from fighting on 4-5 fronts.And after that Israel will be history for it can't defend itself from Muzlim world without US weapons and money.
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Originally posted by KgB
I never said that Israel shouldnt exist,if it's already there.
What i meant is Arabs do have point,do they not sir?
They hate Israel for apearing on their territory all of a sudden,and they hate US for supporting Israel.
You do realize that this war will last for 10-30 years until US economy is exhaustet from fighting on 4-5 fronts.And after that Israel will be history for it can't defend itself from Muzlim world without US weapons and money.
Do you believe that Israel will be destroyed without either it or the US playing their trump (nuke) cards? You need to rethink that.
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What I realize, and what I believe the Israelis understand better than anyone, is that the Arabs speak one language and one language only: the language of force.
In regards to this 'point' that the Arabs have, I really don't care. If the Arabs had one care in the world for their so-called brothers, they'd be supporting Palestine economically, not using them as a fulcrum over which to lever their political agendas. I've seen video of the militants marching, burning Israeli and American flags, I've seen them strapping toy-bomb belts to their toddlers. What I haven't yet seen is the armies of bulldozers, cranes and cement trucks, provided by Arab countries, for the purpose of building and developing their poor, suffering bretheren in Palestine. I've seen the monuments to wealth and hubris built in Riyad and Dubai, but I haven't seen a single pragmatic step made to turn that dump of a pseudo-nation into anything resembling a civilization.
The Arabs may believe that they have a point. However, have yet to start behaving like human beings. Until they end this fanatical cowardice, which they've revolutionized over the course of the last half-century, until they end their bullying, until they learn to control their hatred, until they quit teaching their offspring that nothing is more honorable than killing and dying in the name of their rotten god, the arab world can take its needs, complaints, insecurities and beliefs and shove them.
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The arabs have no points, other than warped ideology and violence.
The sooner they are forcibly disarmed, the better we all will be.
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Originally posted by Neubob
What I realize, and what I believe the Israelis understand better than anyone, is that the Arabs speak one language and one language only: the language of force.
We all understand only force.We would not have punishment otherwise.
Force is the supreme authority.Democrasy maybe the only way to get to that supreme level.And you cant really find who's right or who's wrong anymore,at this poit it's just matter of who's stronger.
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Originally posted by Bodhi
The arabs have no points, other than warped ideology and violence.
Sure,christians much better.Can you even count how many wars christians started?
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Originally posted by lukster
Do you believe that Israel will be destroyed without either it or the US playing their trump (nuke) cards? You need to rethink that.
Yes sir i truly do believe Israel will not survive without United States.
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Originally posted by KgB
Yes sir i truly do believe Israel will not survive without United States.
You spend much time there?
Israel can do a hell of a lot more than the world gives it credit for, and, unlike their neighbors, technological and economic development are among these talents.
The Jews have survived worse than this current brand of barbarian, and will continue to. I know you'd be pleased to see the return of your Pogroms, and you still may, but if you think the Jews are going to vanish forever, I'm afraid all you've done is join long, long, long line of disappointed men.
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Originally posted by KgB
Yes sir i truly do believe Israel will not survive without United States.
I was suggesting that if Israel goes out it will be with a bang that could very well take much if not all of the world with it. Once the nukes start flying who knows where it will end.
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Originally posted by Neubob
You spend much time there?
Israel can do a hell of a lot more than the world gives it credit for, and, unlike their neighbors, technological and economic development are among these talents.
The Jews have survived worse than this current brand of barbarian, and will continue to. I know you'd be pleased to see the return of your Pogroms, and you still may, but if you think the Jews are going to vanish forever, I'm afraid all you've done is join long, long, long line of disappointed men.
See?And you hate me now for what?I never said that i hate jews:)
Every one of my dearest friends are jewish.
And i would not be pleased to see any pogroms,what are you crazy?
Dude if for saying fact i'm anti-semite then you anti-arabite or whatever.BTW if there werent ww2,Israel would have never been created right?Is that anti-sematic slur as well?
Can you even speak Russian?
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Originally posted by lukster
I was suggesting that if Israel goes out it will be with a bang that could very well take much if not all of the world with it. Once the nukes start flying who knows where it will end.
That's true
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Originally posted by KgB
Can you even speak Russian?
Fluently. And the only reason I don't right now is because last time I tried it with Boroda, I was edited by the administrator for using a foriegn language.
As for my anti-arabism, call it what you will. I prefer to refer to my mentality as an awareness of who my enemy is. If the Arabs halted their course of action, I would quit being angry at them.
To answer your final question, if there hadn't been a WWII, the Jews wouldn't need an Israel.
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Originally posted by Neubob
Fluently. And the only reason I don't right now is because last time I tried it with Boroda, I was edited by the administrator for using a foriegn language.
As for my anti-arabism, call it what you will. I prefer to refer to my mentality as an awareness of who my enemy is. If the Arabs halted their course of action, I would quit being angry at them.
To answer your final question, if there hadn't been a WWII, the Jews wouldn't need an Israel.
Thats true,i did not mean to offend you.
My apologies
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Originally posted by KgB
Sure,christians much better.Can you even count how many wars christians started?
Bogus reply.
Show me the "Christians" that are currently over there right now saying they are going to destroy another nation.
Past is the past, and the Christians for sure have a past, but they are not the ones waging war on innocents and saying God says it's right. Thats the terroristic stunninghunks supported by a majority of the whacked out arabic world.
Get your facts straight kiddo, because those same arabic terrorists want to kill you and me just as much as the entire nation on Israel. :mad:
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Originally posted by Bodhi
Bogus reply.
Show me the "Christians" that are currently over there right now saying they are going to destroy another nation.
Past is the past, and the Christians for sure have a past, but they are not the ones waging war on innocents and saying God says it's right. Thats the terroristic stunninghunks supported by a majority of the whacked out arabic world.
Get your facts straight kiddo, because those same arabic terrorists want to kill you and me just as much as the entire nation on Israel. :mad:
Good point sir.How old are you anyway,if you dont mind my asking?
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Originally posted by KgB
Thats true,i did not mean to offend you.
My apologies
Don't worry about it.
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Originally posted by KgB
Good point sir.How old are you anyway,if you dont mind my asking?
Old enough to know better than to use a rediculous argument like "they did it too"
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Originally posted by Toad
Here's an honest question.
After 9/11, we determined that the Taliban government of Afghanistan was harboring the terriorists responsible, Al Qaeda. We decided to remove that government and most of the world supported us in doing so, some militarily.
Shift to Lebanon.
The government of Lebanon has members of a universally decried terrorist organization, Hezbollah, in the Parliament. Hezbollah has ~ 14 of 128 seats in the Lebanese Parliament.
The government of Lebanon can certainly be said to be harboring terrorists and it has done nothing to prevent Hezbollah from attacking Israel from Lebanese territory.
Why then is the world not supporting Israel like it mostly supported the US operation to remove Afghanistan's Taliban government?
Follow up questions. If Israel announced it was invading Lebanon with the intention of removing the government and replacing it with one that did not harbor terrorists (as in US v Taliban) would they get support? If not, why not?
Because it's a Jewish state, and is held to a higher standard than the rest of the world.
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Originally posted by Bodhi
Old enough to know better than to use a rediculous argument like "they did it too"
Evidently you are not old enough for your mind is one way oriented.
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It sure is... one way pointed towards the truth and belief that the Israeli's and the entire West are in this for the survival of our beliefs and very lives. You go on believing what you choose and making those awesome arguments.... it sure makes you look super savvy. :lol
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Originally posted by Bodhi
It sure is... one way pointed towards the truth and belief that the Israeli's and the entire West are in this for the survival of our beliefs and very lives. You go on believing what you choose and making those awesome arguments.... it sure makes you look super savvy. :lol
And what are your believes?Freedom?They never attacked other democratic countries,why?
And the fact that Israel has direct influence on US not the other way around doesn't bother you?
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Originally posted by Neubob
To answer your final question, if there hadn't been a WWII, the Jews wouldn't need an Israel.
FYI sionism started before WWII (about 1880 )
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Originally posted by KgB
And what are your believes?Freedom?They never attacked other democratic countries,why?
And the fact that Israel has direct influence on US not the other way around doesn't bother you?
Please do not be so naive....
July 19, 1982: The president of the American University in Beirut, Davis S. Dodge, is kidnapped. Hezbollah is believed to be behind this and most of the other 30 Westerners kidnapped over the next ten years.
April 18, 1983: Hezbollah attacks the U.S. embassy in Beirut with a car bomb, killing 63 people, 17 of whom were American citizens.
Oct. 23, 1983: The group attacks U.S. Marine barracks with a truck bomb, killing 241 American military personnel stationed in Beirut as part of a peace-keeping force. A separate attack against the French military compound in Beirut kills 58.
Sept. 20, 1984: The group attacks the U.S. embassy annex in Beirut with a car bomb, killing 2 Americans and 22 others.
March 16, 1984: William F. Buckley, a CIA operative working at the U.S. embassy in Beirut, is kidnapped and later murdered.
April 12, 1984: Hezbollah attacks a restaurant near the U.S. Air Force Base in Torrejon, Spain. The bombing kills eighteen U.S. servicemen and injures 83 people.
Dec. 4, 1984: Hezbollah terrorists hijack a Kuwait Airlines plane. Four passengers are murdered, including two Americans.
Feb. 16, 1985: Hezbollah publicizes its manifesto. It notes that the group's struggle will continue until Israel is destroyed and rejects any cease-fire or peace treaty with Israel. The document also attacks the U.S. and France.
June 14, 1985: Hezbollah terrorists hijack TWA flight 847. The hijackers severely beat Passenger Robert Stethem, a U.S. Navy diver, before killing him and dumping his body onto the tarmac at the Beirut airport. Other passengers are held as hostages before being released on June 30.
Dec. 31, 1986: Under the alias Organization of the Oppressed on Earth, Hezbollah announces it had kidnapped and murdered three Lebanese Jews. The organization previously had taken responsibility for killing four other Jews since 1984.
Feb. 17, 1988: The group kidnaps Col. William Higgins, a U.S. Marine serving with a United Nations truce monitoring group in Lebanon, and later murders him.
Oct. 22, 1989: Members of the dissolved Lebanese parliament ratify the Taif Agreement. Although the agreement calls for the "disbanding of all Lebanese and non-Lebanese militias," Hezbollah remains active.
Feb. 16, 1992: Sayyad Hassan Nasrallah takes over Hezbollah after Israel kills the group’s leader, Abbas Musawi.
March 17, 1992: With the help of Iranian intelligence, Hezbollah bombs the Israeli embassy in Buenos Aires, killing 29 and injuring over 200.
July 18, 1994: Hezbollah bombs the Jewish community center in Buenos Aires–again with Iranian help–killing 86 and injuring over 200.
Nov. 28, 1995: Hezbollah bombards towns in northern Israel with volleys of Katyusha rockets in one of the group's numerous attacks on Israeli civilians.
March 30, 1996: Hezbollah fires 28 Katyusha rockets into northern Israeli towns. A week later, the group fires 16 rockets, injuring 36 Israelis. Israel responds with a major offensive, known as the "Grapes of Wrath" operation, to stop Hezbollah rocket fire.
Aug. 19, 1997: Hezbollah opens fire on northern Israel with dozens of rockets in one of the group's numerous attacks on Israeli civilians.
October 1997: The United States lists Hezbollah as a terrorist organization.
Dec. 28, 1998: Hezbollah opens fire on northern Israel with dozens of rockets in one of the group's numerous attacks on Israeli civilians.
May 17, 1999: Hezbollah opens fire on northern Israel with dozens of rockets in one of the group's numerous attacks on Israeli civilians.
June 24, 1999: Hezbollah opens fire on northern Israel, killing 2.
May 23, 2000: Israel withdraws all troops from Lebanon after 18 years patrolling the "security zone," a strip of land in the south of the country. The security zone was set up to prevent attacks on northern Israel.
June 2000: United Nations Secretary General Kofi Annan certifies Israel’s withdrawal from Lebanon. Shortly thereafter, the U.N. Security Council endorses Annan’s report. Hezbollah nonetheless alleges Israel occupies Lebanon, claiming the small Shebba Farms area Israel captured from Syria during the 1967 war as Lebanese territory.
Oct. 7, 2000: Hezbollah attacks an Israel military post and raids Israel, kidnapping three Israeli soldiers. The soldiers are later assumed dead. In mid-October, Hezbollah leader Nasrallah announces the group has also kidnapped an Israeli businessman. In 2004, Israel frees over 400 Arab prisoners in exchange for the business man and the bodies of the three soldiers.
March 1, 2001: The British government adds Hezbollah’s "military wing" to its list of outlawed terrorist organizations.
April 9, 2002: Hezbollah launches Katyushas into northern Israeli town. This assault comes amidst almost daily Hezbollah attacks against Israeli troops in Shebba farms.
Dec. 11, 2002: Canada lists Hezbollah as a terrorist organization.
Aug. 10, 2003: Hezbollah shells kills 16-year-old Israeli boy, wound others.
June 5, 2003: Australia lists Hezbollah’s "military wing" as a terrorist organization.
Sept. 2, 2004: United Nations Security Council Resolution 1559 calls for "the disbanding and disarmament of all Lebanese and non-Lebanese militias," a reference to Hezbollah.
December 2004: Both the United States and France ban Hezbollah’s satellite television network, Al Manar. A U.S. State Department spokesman notes the channel "preaches violence and hatred."
March 10, 2005: The European Parliament overwhelmingly passes a resolution stating: "Parliament considers that clear evidence exists of terrorist activities by Hezbollah. The (EU) Council should take all necessary steps to curtail them." The European Union nonetheless refrains from placing the group on its list of terror organizations.
July 12, 2006: Hezbollah attacks Israel with Katyushas, crosses the border and kidnaps two Israeli soldiers. Three Israeli soldiers are killed in the initial attack. Five more soldiers are killed as Israel launches operation to rescue the soldiers and push Hezbollah from its border. Hezbollah launches rockets into towns across northern Israel.
Want more?
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Originally posted by straffo
FYI sionism started before WWII (about 1880 )
My point was that it wasn't until AFTER the holocaust that the nation of Israel became a necessity for the Jews. Whether it existed or not as a social agenda prior to that is irrelevant. The actions of the Germans should have been the last straw, and Israel was exactly the thing that would ensure that the Jews would never find themselves alone and naked against industrial oppression again.
I think it's interesting, like clockwork almost. Every time an adament statement is made in favor of the Jewish state, one of several people on this board begins to spout off--saying anything, anything at all, to discredit the concept.
And the scary fact is, it's not the gas chambers and firing squads that the Jews should fear, rather, it's the suspicion, the silent contempt and the unspoken hatred, the kind that's taught and spread at millions of dinner tables, nightly, that spawns Hitlers and Stalins. Of course, none of them are anti-semetic. They are merely spreading the belief that a Jewish nationality is inherently dangerous.
They said Never Again. I say that nothing has changed.
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Originally posted by Neubob
My point was that it wasn't until AFTER the holocaust that the nation of Israel became a necessity for the Jews.
It's not what you posted.
I think it's interesting, like clockwork almost. Every time an adament statement is made in favor of the Jewish state, one of several people on this board begins to spout off--saying anything, anything at all, to discredit the concept. [/B]
Sorry ?
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Originally posted by KgB
That's true
The concept of mutually assured destruction is what keeps a society polite, both at the individual and nation level. It also means swift and harsh action may be needed against those who would stir the pot. Some may call this a "cowboy" mentality. Fine by me. ;)
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Originally posted by straffo
It's not what you posted.
Sorry ?
I posted that if it were not for WWII, the Jews would not Israel. Whether or not there were plans to make Israel before WWII does not enter into my statement. WWII was the last straw, after which, it was clear, as it should have been long, long before, that a Jewish state was necessary for the long term survival of the Jewish ethnicity.
As for your 'Sorry?', I don't think I said anything that confusing. You reacted to a very general statement from me by citing historical data that had nothing to do with the theme original statement. Some people on this board have used the term 'straw man' to describe this. I just call it silly.
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Here I disagree , the jew needed a homeland with or without the Shoa.
Like any people on this planet.
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"And the scary fact is, it's not the gas chambers and firing squads that the Jews should fear, rather, it's the suspicion, the silent contempt and the unspoken hatred, the kind that's taught and spread at millions of dinner tables, nightly, that spawns Hitlers and Stalins. Of course, none of them are anti-semetic. They are merely spreading the belief that a Jewish nationality is inherently dangerous. They said Never Again. I say that nothing has changed."
What the hell are you saying?!?!
-C+
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Originally posted by Charge
"And the scary fact is, it's not the gas chambers and firing squads that the Jews should fear, rather, it's the suspicion, the silent contempt and the unspoken hatred, the kind that's taught and spread at millions of dinner tables, nightly, that spawns Hitlers and Stalins. Of course, none of them are anti-semetic. They are merely spreading the belief that a Jewish nationality is inherently dangerous. They said Never Again. I say that nothing has changed."
What the hell are you saying?!?!
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I'm saying that the world is ripe for another Holocaust, and it doesn't start in the mind of a mad man, it starts with casual contempt and suspicion. All the mad man has to do is bring it together and deliver a couple emotional speeches. The ingrained suspicion then boils over into a frenzy and viola, the omlet is made.
Easy enough for you?
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I think what Neubob is saying can be summarized thusly (This is my interpretation only...not his):
If Israel were to be suddenly and violently overthrown by its enemies, and a wholesale massacre of the Jewish population took place, western intellectual elites that have taken anti-Israel stands might be appalled by the slaughter but would write it off as the natural consequence of all the "repressive" acts the Israelis had "inflicted" on the Arabs since 1948.
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Originally posted by Neubob
And the scary fact is, it's not the gas chambers and firing squads that the Jews should fear, rather, it's the suspicion, the silent contempt and the unspoken hatred, the kind that's taught and spread at millions of dinner tables, nightly, that spawns Hitlers and Stalins. Of course, none of them are anti-semetic. They are merely spreading the belief that a Jewish nationality is inherently dangerous.
I'm saying that the world is ripe for another Holocaust, and it doesn't start in the mind of a mad man, it starts with casual contempt and suspicion. All the mad man has to do is bring it together and deliver a couple emotional speeches.
It can happen all too easily.
Sort of off topic I guess,but.............The same thing applies to our situation at this time with terrorist orgs. I don`t think a lot of people actualy get it . You can`t just sit back and allow these people to build up manpower, financing and supply networks. They will not just go away if you leave them alone as some here would like us to beleive. These people are your enemy. Your sworn enemy. There are generations of teaching...live, eat, breathe , sleep nothing beisides this. It is their life. They won`t your butt destroyed and will use everything in their power to do so.
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Originally posted by Shuckins
If Israel were to be suddenly and violently overthrown by its enemies, and a wholesale massacre of the Jewish population took place, western intellectual elites that have taken anti-Israel stands might be appalled by the slaughter but would write it off as the natural consequence of all the "repressive" acts the Israelis had "inflicted" on the Arabs since 1948.
Apalled as they may be, nothing would be done to prevent this from happening. This is why Israel give only limited attention to the opinion of the international community. It is good to be loved, but only interests and actions counts and it is clear that no foreign country will risk its interests for the sake of Israel, not even America. The "goim" will talk but the Jews will do what's good for the Jews - that was the mantra since early days of Zionist movement. Since the 1917 "Balfur statement" through the UN voting on a Jewish state in 1948 to the 2000 UN announcement of Israel's complete withdrawal from Lebanon, they were all just words in the wind. Eventually the zionists and Israelies had to act on their own behalf.
Originally posted by Neubob
WWII was the last straw, after which, it was clear, as it should have been long, long before, that a Jewish state was necessary for the long term survival of the Jewish ethnicity.
The ultimate counter argument is that Jews have survived 2000 without a country - maybe they don't need one. For the anti-zionist Jews being prosecuted as a jew is part of being a jew. The occasional disasters hurt the Jews, but cannot destroy them. Being scattered all over the globe is both the insurance of Jewish future and a source of power. Their oppinion of a Jewish state was like putting all the eggs in one basket - easier to kill when all together.
The idiological pillars of the zionist movement were the claim that a Jew is a nationality and that Jews deserve control over their own individual safty (not survival of the Jews) and destiny, meaning a Jewish state.
WWII was a big push for the Jewish state idea for 3 reasons (that I see):
One, the anti zionist movement led by German Jews was erradicated by the Nazies.
Two, Jews discovered that a large portion of europians would gladly backstab a jew in the right circumstances. I have old family members that can tell wonderful stories about their Dutch, Polish, Ukrain and Russian neighbors during WWII. My grandfather made his peace with modern Germany but still hates the Polish for what they did to him.
Three, for most of the europian countries, a Jewish state was both a way to clear their concience and an oppertunity to get rid of their Jews in a nice, easy way.
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Originally posted by Jackal1
It can happen all too easily.
Sort of off topic I guess,but.............The same thing applies to our situation at this time with terrorist orgs. I don`t think a lot of people actualy get it . You can`t just sit back and allow these people to build up manpower, financing and supply networks. They will not just go away if you leave them alone as some here would like us to beleive. These people are your enemy. Your sworn enemy. There are generations of teaching...live, eat, breathe , sleep nothing beisides this. It is their life. They won`t your butt destroyed and will use everything in their power to do so.
Which is exactly why we must treat them as an enemy, rather than a confused mass that needs only education and enlightenment. The enemy wasn't just in the Middle East when the Towers came down. The enemy was dancing in the streets of Hoboken, not 20 miles from the impact site. The enemy was here, at home in the US, publically appalled but quietly patting their more fanatical brethern on the back for doing it. The enemy is a quiet, covert, passive supporter of this growing world order, and although he is harder to spot than a guerilla with an AK, he is no less adament.
We shouldn't be in the business of liberation and re-organization. We should be in the business of winning.
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Originally posted by Neubob
We shouldn't be in the business of liberation and re-organization. We should be in the business of winning.
DING DING DING DING DING
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Originally posted by Toad
Sandman, will you take a stab at answering my question upthread?
Why doesn't the world view this incident the same way they viewed 9/11 & the Afghanistan invasion?
Maybe because Al Quada agenda is to bring down America and her allies where as Hezbollah only wants to defend Lebenon and destroy Israel. Global issue versus local issue.
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Originally posted by parker00
Maybe because Al Quada agenda is to bring down America and her allies where as Hezbollah only wants to defend Lebenon and destroy Israel. Global issue versus local issue.
You actually may want to look a bit more into Hezbollah's charter....