Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: xrtoronto on July 30, 2006, 04:47:35 PM
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Severe reactions to an attack by the Israeli Air Force on the Lebanese town of Qana, located 16 km east of Tyre, has provoked widespread commendation of Israel’s continuing military operation; and may even be a major ‘turning point’ in this 19 day old war. The air raid, occurring in the early Sunday morning hours, resulted in a basement shelter filled with refugees, many of them women and children, being hit by IAF bombs with more than 60 people reported killed and injured. As the bodies were continuously pulled out of the rubble, the angry outcry has resulted in a cancellation of a planned visit to Beirut by U.S. Sec. of State Condoleezza Rice. Though Israeli military authorities reported that Qana had been used to launch Katyusha rockets into Israel, [the resulting death and injury and of innocent civilians has created such a strong backlash against Israel that an immediate and unconditional ceasefire is now being demanded by world leaders, including Jordan’s King Abdullah, who called the attack “an ugly crime”.
Israel Defense Minister Amir Peretz has asked the IAF to investigate the cause of the attack and why this particular location (i.e. the shelter area) was attacked. This effort is not enough to placate an extremely agitated Lebanese populace who afterwards surrounded and broke into the U.N. Beirut headquarters, smashing everything they could lay their hands on, and waiving yellow Hezbollah flags, as well as shouting slogans tied to that organization.
The reverberations from this attack, called an international outrage by many, could well be Hezbollah’s “secret weapon” as they know that international public opinion is even more potent than their continuing to shoot their missiles into the Jewish State. Incidents such as this have always occurred during warfare; and a very similar one occurred in Baghdad during the 1991 Gulf War when an American launched ’smart bomb’ struck a shelter in central Baghdad, killing more than a hundred civilians. That incident, and the public outcry it created, resulted in an immediate scaling down of U.S. attacks on the Iraqi capital, and may have helped keep Saddam Hussein in power, even after his army was crushed.
Hezbollah has successfully used civilians to keep their enemies at bay, and even in the initial attacks on southern Beirut, Hezbollah had used heavily populated areas to launch missiles, as well as hide militiamen and arms. This may have also occurred in what will now be referred to as the ‘Qana massacre’. And regardless of the outcome of Israel’s investigation, the international condemnation pouring out, with the help of zealous news medias, will most likely result in even Ms. Rice and U.S. President Bush calling for an immediate cessation of hostilities.
Hezbollah, especially their leader Sheikh Nasrallah, couldn’t be more pleased, and are probably already making plans on how to exploit this event to the fullest. They even know that if an international peacekeeping force is sent to S. Lebanon (most likely composed of many American combat personnel, despite being stretched thin in Iraq and Afghanistan) will be to Hezbollah’s advantage, as a few well- orchestrated suicide terror attacks will make this force flee like the Americans did form Beirut in 1982. And Nasrallah also knows that he doesn’t even have to fire any more of his Katyusha rockets into Israel, as the ‘missiles’ of anti- Israel public opinion have already been very successfully launched.
link (http://onejerusalem.com/2006/07/30/the-turning-point/)
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Mostly likely this is the turning point where it all turns back to the place from which it began.
From where it will start again, you might say.
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Love what you highlighted and omitted highlighting.
I'd have highlighted these parts.
Israeli military authorities reported that Qana had been used to launch Katyusha rockets into Israel
and how about this
This effort is not enough to placate an extremely agitated Lebanese populace who afterwards surrounded and broke into the U.N. Beirut headquarters, smashing everything they could lay their hands on, and waiving yellow Hezbollah flags, as well as shouting slogans tied to that organization.
Yea its the UN fault lets smash em up.
Ohh my particular fav...
Hezbollah has successfully used civilians to keep their enemies at bay, and even in the initial attacks on southern Beirut, Hezbollah had used heavily populated areas to launch missiles, as well as hide militiamen and arms. This may have also occurred in what will now be referred to as the ‘Qana massacre’. And regardless of the outcome of Israel’s investigation, the international condemnation pouring out, with the help of zealous news medias
Ohh no this time Hezbollah did not use this particular site... pfffft
Gets even better....
Hezbollah, especially their leader Sheikh Nasrallah, couldn’t be more pleased, and are probably already making plans on how to exploit this event to the fullest.
Yup they don't care how many innocents they place in the line of fire ...just as long as they don't get shot at.
Amazing how to people read a story and get different things out of it.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Toad
Mostly likely this is the turning point where it all turns back to the place from which it began.
From where it will start again, you might say.
You mean it'll start again when Hamas, Hezbollah, or Islamic Jihad decide to violate cease fire number 847,972, by killing Isreali civilians or kidnapping Isreali soldiers from Israeli soil?
Where upon while Israel tries to deal with the attack, the "civilized" world will call for cease fire 847,973.
Because instead of allowing Israel to stomp a mud puddle in their tulips and stomp it dry, they (the "civilized" world) called for cease fire number 847,972?
If cease fires brought peace, the Middle East would be the most peaceful region on the planet. (Shamelessly stolen from Thomas Sowell)
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What sucks is that Syria and Iran get to screw with Israel by their proxies Hezbollah while Lebanese civilians (roughly 1/2 Christian, btw) get tagged by Israeli bombs.
Hezbollah, has a sweet job. 1) Launch rockets 2) Hide amongst civilians 3)Wait for Israeli retaliation 4) Wait for Arab (and sometimes international) condemnation 5) Rinse and repeat
I'm not sure why Israel doesn't have Predator drones, 10-15 in the air at any one time. This would be the easiest way to deal with the rocket firing. They leave a distinct trail and could easily be traced back and hit within 1-2 minutes....
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Originally posted by kamilyun
I'm not sure why Israel doesn't have Predator drones, 10-15 in the air at any one time.
they do...one crashed just a couple days ago...the idf bombed the crash site 30 minutes later so the sensitive material inside would not go to hezbollah
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Originally posted by xrtoronto
they do...one crashed just a couple days ago...the idf bombed the crash site 30 minutes later so the sensitive material inside would not go to hezbollah
Did they hit any kids when they bombed it?
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They should have. That way Toronto could happily condemn Israel with the rest of the world, but not actually do anything.
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Yeah - but even a complete moron driving a TV guided missile can tell the difference between a 3 story building and a mobile rocket launch site, ya think?
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I'm afraid that the turning point will end up going to the hezbollah. They have brilliantly won the media war and all it cost them was a relatively few lebanese. No matter what the situation is on the ground, rather than risk criticizing the hezbollah and their tactics, the politically correct media had already decided who will win the conflict. Hezbollah played them like a word class orchestra and swayed opinion away from their own initiating the conflict to the bad evil isreali's counter battery fire. Now it's left to let the diplomats decide how much Isreal will have to sacrifice in territory to gain a brief "peace".
You may not agree but that's the way I see it going from now on.
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Originally posted by Black Sheep
Yeah - but even a complete moron driving a TV guided missile can tell the difference between a 3 story building and a mobile rocket launch site, ya think?
Exactly
Bronk
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Originally posted by Maverick
I'm afraid that the turning point will end up going to the hezbollah. They have brilliantly won the media war and all it cost them was a relatively few lebanese. No matter what the situation is on the ground, rather than risk criticizing the hezbollah and their tactics, the politically correct media had already decided who will win the conflict. Hezbollah played them like a word class orchestra and swayed opinion away from their own initiating the conflict to the bad evil isreali's counter battery fire. Now it's left to let the diplomats decide how much Isreal will have to sacrifice in territory to gain a brief "peace".
You may not agree but that's the way I see it going from now on.
No. The world wide media scene was played before the opening salvoes were even up. You can figure out the reasons why, but it's really simple.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
They should have.
They may have put kids there, but the Israeli aim has been less accurate this past couple days. A few days ago, they bombed the UN post that had been thre since 1958, killing 4. The UN pulls out all other UN staff and yesterday, IDF fired on the UN marked vehicles again, while trying to escape, but this time they only wounded the personel. Today, they kill all these women and children. All three incidents were 'accidents' of coarse. (just like the last time in Qana 10 years ago when they bombed another UN site killing more than a 100 civilians hiding in the basement to escape death - oh, that was another 'accident'.) The family last month on the beach, 7 killed by IDF (5 children) - another accident. *raises eyebrows*
That way Toronto could happily condemn Israel with the rest of the world, but not actually do anything.
Condem Israel? With all my conviction. But, it's really a moot point now. Israel has lost global support from everyone but the US
*shrugs*
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Originally posted by xrtoronto
Condem Israel? With all my conviction. But, it's really a moot point now. Israel has lost global support from everyone but the US
*shrugs*
But hezbollah is okey dokie with you then?
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Originally posted by Bronk
Love what you highlighted and omitted highlighting.
I'd have highlighted these parts.
Israeli military authorities reported that Qana had been used to launch Katyusha rockets into Israel
and how about this
This effort is not enough to placate an extremely agitated Lebanese populace who afterwards surrounded and broke into the U.N. Beirut headquarters, smashing everything they could lay their hands on, and waiving yellow Hezbollah flags, as well as shouting slogans tied to that organization.
Yea its the UN fault lets smash em up.
Ohh my particular fav...
Hezbollah has successfully used civilians to keep their enemies at bay, and even in the initial attacks on southern Beirut, Hezbollah had used heavily populated areas to launch missiles, as well as hide militiamen and arms. This may have also occurred in what will now be referred to as the �Qana massacre�. And regardless of the outcome of Israel�s investigation, the international condemnation pouring out, with the help of zealous news medias
Ohh no this time Hezbollah did not use this particular site... pfffft
Gets even better....
Hezbollah, especially their leader Sheikh Nasrallah, couldn�t be more pleased, and are probably already making plans on how to exploit this event to the fullest.
Yup they don't care how many innocents they place in the line of fire ...just as long as they don't get shot at.
Amazing how to people read a story and get different things out of it.
Bronk
Nice post Bronk, I was just thinking the same thing how intersting it was which sectionsxrtoronto chose to highlight and which to not.
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Originally posted by xrtoronto
Condem Israel? With all my conviction.
Like you wouldn't do that anyway, regardless of what happened or what they did. Unless they stood there with their hands in their pockets while Hezbollah slaughtered them.
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Originally posted by xrtoronto
They may have put kids there, but the Israeli aim has been less accurate this past couple days.
As apposed to unguided rockets?
A few days ago, they bombed the UN post that had been thre since 1958, killing 4. The UN pulls out all other UN staff and yesterday, IDF fired on the UN marked vehicles again, while trying to escape, but this time they only wounded the personel.
lemme see now I'm a hezbollah freedom fighter that doesn't want to get hit with a bomb what to do... I know paint a big blue UN on the top of my truck. Those silly Jews will never suspect that.
Today, they kill all these women and children. All three incidents were 'accidents' of coarse. (just like the last time in Qana 10 years ago when they bombed another UN site killing more than a 100 civilians hiding in the basement to escape death - oh, that was another 'accident'.) The family last month on the beach, 7 killed by IDF (5 children) - another accident. *raises eyebrows*
We at hezzbollah would never ever place our mobile rocket launchers near a know air raid shelter. Xt get a grip this is standard practice for hezbollah
Condem Israel? With all my conviction. But, it's really a moot point now. Israel has lost global support from everyone but the US
See the Mel Gibson drunk thread how some like to point at others as antisemitic ... while posting there own .
*shrugs*
Bronk
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Originally posted by Maverick
But hezbollah is okey dokie with you then?
What I'm saying is the entire Middle East (and including India) is in an enigmatic conflict. Just because someone is critical of someone (or something) it doesn't mean that they are against that someone or something. If I had a solution to all this, it would win me the Nobel Prize.
If you read some of the Israeli blogs, there are Israelis who feel exactly the way I feel. I stand firmly by what I have said.
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ah..there it is..Bronk plays the 'anti-semetic' card.
predictable, lame
My friend who went to Israel last summer with his Rabbi and 40 others....I am meeting him tomorrow at 2:30 for a late lunch. I will tell him all about you.:)
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And now the I have jew friends defence .
Even lamer .
Stop making excuses for hezbollah .
Because their actions are inexcusable... or do you condone young muslims blowing up civilians in pizza parlors?
Bronk
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This whole innocent civilian thing really ticks me off....sure civilians shouldn't be targeted on purpose, but to expect Israel to tie one hand behind their back just to not hit civilians is stupid.
It's a war zone..and you can't tell me that the entire poplace of a village wouldn't be aware that Hezbolla is hiding there...leave town if you don't want to get killed..oh but wait you say Israel bombed the roads...has the world gotten to the point that just because you don't have a freakin car, you can't go anywhere..walk your arse out of town..go live in a tent for awhile or something.
One other thing..someone in here mentioned that Lebanon is almost 1/2 Christian...like the crime is worse that they are killing Christians too...do any of ya'll think that the JEWISH state of Israel care if they are killing Christians or Muslims? We are all Gentiles in their eyes.
I say let the rest of the world stay out of it..Those hate filled countries over there have been trying to erase Israel for years..They should be thanking Allah or God or Bog or whoever that Israel has had some restraint and not used the end all weapon that none of their enemies have yet.
__________________
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Originally posted by Bronk
do you condone young muslims blowing up civilians in pizza parlors?
Bronk
bronk, i think you're emotions have got the better of you
anything is better than talking to you right now...so...I'm gonna get a cup of coffee and some raspberry swirl cake and watch a little TV before going to bed. It's just turned midnight here. Nighty, night.
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Nice evade .
Don't answer the question just dance around it a bit... It'll make you feel better.
Bronk
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Turning Point?
I'd say only for this latest round, possibly.
What would bring peace to the region? Israel's withdrawal to '67 lines, or '49 ceasefire lines, or '47 UN partition lines? I doubt if any withdrawal to any of these lines will ever bring a "durable and lasting peace."
One of the continuing demands of Palestinians is the return of all Palestinian refugees to areas including those within the '47 UN demarcation lines. But even those on the left of the left in Israel like Yossi Baylin reject the idea. So no matter what happens in the near term, no progress for "peace" is likely so long as Palestinian leaders continue to hold on to the refugee card. From what I understand that is mainly what torpedoed Barak's offer for peace at Camp David, even though Nobel Prize winner for peace Arafat didn't even offer a counter proposal.
I have a friend whose parents fled Iraq in the early '50s. Jews had lived in Mesopotamia for 2.500 years or more, since the days the books of Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Daniel were written. There were many hundreds of thousands of these Middle Eastern Jews who left their homes as "refugees" and were eventually absorbed by Israel. But of all the many displaced people groups of the '40s, in Europe and the Middle East, who were accorded the title "refugee" the displaced Palestinians were not absorbed by the local populations. Instead they were given domicile in camps. That's 60 years of waiting in a "refugee" camp, including in PA controlled Gaza, after the Oslo Accords.
Israel recognized a former terrorist organization, the PLO, as a legitimate partner for peace on the basis of that organization's pledge to recognize the legitimacy of the state of Israel and renounce calls for Israel's destruction. The Palestinian National Charter of the PLO at that time contained specific articles that called for the destruction of Israel by armed conflict. An explicit provision of the Oslo accords of 1993 between Israel and the PLO was the PLO's assurance that those articles would be removed or changed. Though promises were made that they would be changed, to this day the articles in question remain in place. That's not a reassuring sign. I personally don't see how Hamas or Hezbollah, both religiously motivated, will be more agreeable to the existence of Israel when the secular PLO has been unable to do so completely.
It also seems notable to me that just prior to the recent events on Israel's borders, Iran and its quest for nuclear capability was on the frontpage. But of course Israel making war is sure to steal all headlines. Iran denies the holocaust and publically threatens Israel with complete annihilation.
On the other hand it's worth mentioning again that Egypt signed peace accords recognizing Israel in 1979, as did Jordan in 1995. And no civil war erupted in Israel from Jerusalem's forced removal of Israelis from settlements in Gaza, settlements that Israeli governments right and left had sponsored. So Israel is not obstinately against any approach for peace.
Regarding recent events, xrtoronto also asked in another thread if anyone remembers the Liberty attack, no doubt wanting to throw that event into the mix of current affairs to lead to more bad taste in the mouths of readers here towards Israel. Well why didn't you ask about this one too?
April 17, 2002: Four Canadian soldiers - Sgt. Marc D. Leger, Cpl. Ainsworth Dyer, Pte. Richard Green and Pte. Nathan Smith -- were killed and eight wounded near Kandahar, Afghanistan. They were on a night-time, live-fire exercise when a U.S. jet fighter pilot mistook them for enemy personnel and bombed them.
Or this one.
1988 the US Navy missile ship Vincennes downs an Iranian civilian airliner.
But similar incidents couldn't be a horrible mistake when Israelis are pulling the trigger. It must be premeditated.
I wonder if all Canadian forces such as are operating in Afghanistan for Operation Enduring Freedom have never injured or killed any innocent Afghanis. I certainly hope they have not. But weapons of war are designed for maximum effect, sometimes unwanted.
May 23, 2006: Afghanistan's President Hamid Karzai calls for an investigation after U.S. commanders call in air strikes during a gun battle with Taliban fighters in a Panjwai district village during the late hours of May 21 and the early hours of May 22. At least 16 civilians died. Canadian political leaders admitted such incidents made it more difficult to win the "hearts and minds" of the Afghan people.
March 14, 2006: Canadian troops shoot and kill an Afghan man in a taxi that had ventured too close to their convoy. As compensation, the man's family asks to be moved to Canada and educated. The military reports firing warning shots in 10 incidents in the previous several months.
The tenor of xrtoronto and others is that Israel could care less about civilian casualties. What emerges about people like xrtoronto is the same double-standard approach that disqualifies one from serious discussion.
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Originally posted by hacksaw1
Turning Point?
I'd say only for this latest round, possibly.
What would bring peace to the region? Israel's withdrawal to '67 lines, or '49 ceasefire lines, or '47 UN partition lines? I doubt if any withdrawal to any of these lines will ever bring a "durable and lasting peace."
One of the continuing demands of Palestinians is the return of all Palestinian refugees to areas including those within the '47 UN demarcation lines. But even those on the left of the left in Israel like Yossi Baylin reject the idea. So no matter what happens in the near term, no progress for "peace" is likely so long as Palestinian leaders continue to hold on to the refugee card. From what I understand that is mainly what torpedoed Barak's offer for peace at Camp David, even though Nobel Prize winner for peace Arafat didn't even offer a counter proposal.
I have a friend whose parents fled Iraq in the early '50s. Jews had lived in Mesopotamia for 2.500 years or more, since the days the books of Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Daniel were written. There were many hundreds of thousands of these Middle Eastern Jews who left their homes as "refugees" and were eventually absorbed by Israel. But of all the many displaced people groups of the '40s, in Europe and the Middle East, who were accorded the title "refugee" the displaced Palestinians were not absorbed by the local populations. Instead they were given domicile in camps. That's 60 years of waiting in a "refugee" camp, including in PA controlled Gaza, after the Oslo Accords.
Israel recognized a former terrorist organization, the PLO, as a legitimate partner for peace on the basis of that organization's pledge to recognize the legitimacy of the state of Israel and renounce calls for Israel's destruction. The Palestinian National Charter of the PLO at that time contained specific articles that called for the destruction of Israel by armed conflict. An explicit provision of the Oslo accords of 1993 between Israel and the PLO was the PLO's assurance that those articles would be removed or changed. Though promises were made that they would be changed, to this day the articles in question remain in place. That's not a reassuring sign. I personally don't see how Hamas or Hezbollah, both religiously motivated, will be more agreeable to the existence of Israel when the secular PLO has been unable to do so completely.
It also seems notable to me that just prior to the recent events on Israel's borders, Iran and its quest for nuclear capability was on the frontpage. But of course Israel making war is sure to steal all headlines. Iran denies the holocaust and publically threatens Israel with complete annihilation.
On the other hand it's worth mentioning again that Egypt signed peace accords recognizing Israel in 1979, as did Jordan in 1995. And no civil war erupted in Israel from Jerusalem's forced removal of Israelis from settlements in Gaza, settlements that Israeli governments right and left had sponsored. So Israel is not obstinately against any approach for peace.
Regarding recent events, xrtoronto also asked in another thread if anyone remembers the Liberty attack, no doubt wanting to throw that event into the mix of current affairs to lead to more bad taste in the mouths of readers here towards Israel. Well why didn't you ask about this one too?
April 17, 2002: Four Canadian soldiers - Sgt. Marc D. Leger, Cpl. Ainsworth Dyer, Pte. Richard Green and Pte. Nathan Smith -- were killed and eight wounded near Kandahar, Afghanistan. They were on a night-time, live-fire exercise when a U.S. jet fighter pilot mistook them for enemy personnel and bombed them.
Or this one.
1988 the US Navy missile ship Vincennes downs an Iranian civilian airliner.
But similar incidents couldn't be a horrible mistake when Israelis are pulling the trigger. It must be premeditated.
I wonder if all Canadian forces such as are operating in Afghanistan for Operation Enduring Freedom have never injured or killed any innocent Afghanis. I certainly hope they have not. But weapons of war are designed for maximum effect, sometimes unwanted.
May 23, 2006: Afghanistan's President Hamid Karzai calls for an investigation after U.S. commanders call in air strikes during a gun battle with Taliban fighters in a Panjwai district village during the late hours of May 21 and the early hours of May 22. At least 16 civilians died. Canadian political leaders admitted such incidents made it more difficult to win the "hearts and minds" of the Afghan people.
March 14, 2006: Canadian troops shoot and kill an Afghan man in a taxi that had ventured too close to their convoy. As compensation, the man's family asks to be moved to Canada and educated. The military reports firing warning shots in 10 incidents in the previous several months.
The tenor of xrtoronto and others is that Israel could care less about civilian casualties. What emerges about people like xrtoronto is the same double-standard approach that disqualifies one from serious discussion.
Hacksaw? More like Hammer, because you just nailed it.
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Where's the outrage over the car bombs blowing up civilian marketplaces in Iraq? There were no hizbollah terrorists in those markets lofting rockets at anyone, they just blew them up for giggedy giggles. But blow up one building in an area used to launch rockets at Israel, and call out the outrage soundbites!
Whackos are killing dozens of true innocents in Iraq EVERY WEEK, and there is no outrage. The outrage is false, pure and simple. They want a sound bite and they know that outrage, even as blatantly hypocritcal and fabricated as this, will get on CNN. So that's their tactic.
When will people realize that it's info warfare and propaganda at it's finest? Goebbels and Hitler would be happy to hire these masters of propaganda, as they've done what Hitler couldn't do, make a bunch of total religious whackjobs and genocidal lunatics look like victims in the eyes of the American media.
WTG terrorist propaganda masters, applause to mainstream media for taking the truly revolutionary approach to finding the "truth" by buying into the cultural relativism that places terrorism and those who support it on a higher moral pedestal than anything else. Because moral relativism that says it's ok for someone to blow themselves up because "that's ok in his culture" is somehow "fair" and "truthful reporting".
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The following excerpt is taken from the pamphlet, "Hezbollah Military Doctrine; Chapter 3 - Using Available Tools and the Equipment at Hand. (Page 57.)":
"If you got civilians, you don't need no stinking body armor."
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(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0470834633.01._AA240_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg)
Bell's book details a range of failures in Canada's establishment towards terrorism, focusing on Sikh terrorism, the Sri Lankan Tamil Tigers, Hezbollah and Hamas, and lastly al-Qaeda. Complacency, appeasement, and denial are the main themes that run through the book, written in a journalist's narrative style. What is most troubling is the lack of awareness, let alone the absence of a sense of responsibility, to victims of terrorism in other countries.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0470834633/002-7818780-4919234?v=glance&n=283155
I think that "Complacency, appeasement, and denial " hit's the nail on the head.
Turning point indeed.
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well then... maybe jordan will get angry enough to give back the land they took from the "palestinians" now?
lazs