Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Gunslinger on July 31, 2006, 10:41:39 AM
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It seems now that all wars have to be faught on at least two fronts. One in the area of operations and the other in the world media.
“The attack on the structure in the Qana village took place between midnight and one in the morning. The gap between the timing of the collapse of the building and the time of the strike on it is unclear,” Brigadier General Amir Eshel, Head of the Air Force Headquarters told journalists at the Defense Ministry in Tel Aviv, following the incidents at Qana.
Eshel and the head of the IDF’s Operational Branch, Major General Gadi Eisnkot said the structure was not being attacked when it collapsed, at around 8:00 in the morning.
The IDF believes that Hizbullah explosives in the building were behind the explosion that caused the collapse.
Another possibility is that the rickety building remained standing for a few hours, but eventually collapsed.
"An attack that took place at two in the morning struck two targets, both of them 400 meters away from the building (that collapsed). They were also destroyed. The attack between 12 and 1 a.m. struck the area of the affected house, and there were accurate strikes on the target. We are asking the question – what happened between 1 in the morning and 8 in the morning… we understand this building was attacked between 12 and 1 in the morning, seven hours before it was seriously damaged," he said.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3283816,00.html
There's even a nice video to go along with the story.
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(http://www.daybydaycartoon.com/cartoons/073106.jpg)
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
(http://www.daybydaycartoon.com/cartoons/073106.jpg)
:rofl
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almost and I say almost sounds plausible, RE: Explosives collapsing the building, more proaganda, more lies, more of the same, Just like killing the 4 UN people was a mistake, even after repeated warnings to the IDF, Same as Sabrah and Shatilla was covered up, till they couldn't hide it anymore.
Funny thing is, looks like the two soldiers were kidnapped, what about the thousands of Palastinian people who have been kidnapped by the Israelis ?
Many of whom are probably innocent, they weren't kidnapped though, they were arrested..
Doesn't matter who the country is, there's always one claiming they are right and the other is wrong, this all has to stop, too many innocent people are being caught up in this terrible conflict.
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I saw that same video Sunday on CNN and they said that it was NOT video of the Qana airstrike but an older video provided by Israel.
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Originally posted by Hawco
almost and I say almost sounds plausible, RE: Explosives collapsing the building, more proaganda, more lies, more of the same, Just like killing the 4 UN people was a mistake, even after repeated warnings to the IDF,
If the U.N. post was allowing Hezbola to launch rocket attacks on Israel mere meters from their position, i'm 100% ok w/ them getting hit.
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Originally posted by WMLute
If the U.N. post was allowing Hezbola to launch rocket attacks on Israel mere meters from their position, i'm 100% ok w/ them getting hit.
Not like the UN posts have a choice, they are unarmed observers. Which....is incredibly stupid to put unarmed observers in Lebanon imo.
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Originally posted by WMLute
If the U.N. post was allowing Hezbola to launch rocket attacks on Israel mere meters from their position, i'm 100% ok w/ them getting hit.
Amazing.
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what about the thousands of Palastinian people who have been kidnapped by the Israelis ?
Source please?
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
(http://www.daybydaycartoon.com/cartoons/073106.jpg)
I don;t get it :huh
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Amazing.
What is it you find Amazing,
That UN Observers were being used as a sanctuary for Hizbo Missle Teams firing, or that counterbattery fire hit them?
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Amazing.
If you saw on the news that there was a riot going on, would you feel sympathy for the idiot that decided to go down to where the riot was happening, pulled up a lawn to watch it, and got attacked?
I mean DUH!
(granted, i bet CNN would)
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Originally posted by Rooster
What is it you find Amazing,
That UN Observers were being used as a sanctuary for Hizbo Missle Teams firing, or that counterbattery fire hit them?
I'll take Un Observers being used as a sanctuary for $200 and Counterbattery fire as a daily double.
Can I do that? Take both at once? :D
J/K :D
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Thanks , now I can picture it clearly :
IDF bomb a builing, before it collapse the bomb explode (making no damages I guess ?) screaming "THE BUILDING WILL COLLAPSE WITHIN 8 HOURS".
It make sense.
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The UN observers did what the UN authorized them to do. They observed the hezbollah folks firing from the UN position. Then the UN acted on that observation. Doing nothing IS an action or decision if you will.
Once hostilities started the observers mission was done. Their command structure should have immediately evacuated them from the war zone. I don't blame the Isreali's for the UN deaths, I blame hezbollah for firing from the UN position and the UN for leaving their folks to die.
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Straffo,
I am offended. You left me out of your little lettre de cachet.
Have any more riots at home?
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Originally posted by PonyDriver
Source please?
Go and search any news sites, there you will see the numbers invloved of thousands of People who have been "arrested" by the Israelis, funny how the Israelis/US calls them Kidnapping when it happens to Israel and arrests when it's the other way round.
Just playing with words, another part of propoganda
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Originally posted by straffo
Thanks , now I can picture it clearly :
IDF bomb a builing, before it collapse the bomb explode (making no damages I guess ?) screaming "THE BUILDING WILL COLLAPSE WITHIN 8 HOURS".
It make sense.
Straffo, I think it is known approximately when the building collapsed. The IDF also knows what time they hit that building. There is a discrepancy of about 8 hours between the time that building was hit and the time it collapsed.
Right now it isnt known if the building collapsed from damage sustained during the airstrike, or from other causes.
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Originally posted by Hawco
Go and search any news sites, there you will see the numbers invloved of thousands of People who have been "arrested" by the Israelis, funny how the Israelis/US calls them Kidnapping when it happens to Israel and arrests when it's the other way round.
Just playing with words, another part of propoganda
When Hezbollah is made a state then they to can call it "arrests".
Until such time its kidnapping.
Bronk
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Go and search any news sites, there you will see the numbers invloved of thousands of People who have been "arrested" by the Israelis, funny how the Israelis/US calls them Kidnapping when it happens to Israel and arrests when it's the other way round.
Oh, so you have no source. What you are saying is that you choose to believe that the Israelis are kidnapping Palestinians but you actually have no evidence to support it, is that correct?
I have a "yes or no" question for you. Do you believe the world would be a safer place without Islamic extremists like the Hizbos?
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Originally posted by Hawco
Go and search any news sites, there you will see the numbers invloved of thousands of People who have been "arrested" by the Israelis, funny how the Israelis/US calls them Kidnapping when it happens to Israel and arrests when it's the other way round.
Just playing with words, another part of propoganda
I googled for it. Didnt come up with any hits that described *thousands* of people arrested. I did see where 3 were arrested for demonstrating without a liscence. I did see where Israel is conducting nightly arrest raids in which they arrest militants in the West Bank. But thousands?
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Straffo, it is convenient for you Euro-appeasers to blame both sides for a conflict. This way you can try to make nice with the bad guys, thus hoping they don't bomb you. Please do not think that right thinking people are unaware of this. Tell me, when the rockets start falling in your country, your neighborhood, who will you blame along with the terrorists,your neighbors?
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Originally posted by PonyDriver
Oh, so you have no source. What you are saying is that you choose to believe that the Israelis are kidnapping Palestinians but you actually have no evidence to support it, is that correct?
I have a "yes or no" question for you. Do you believe the world would be a safer place without Islamic extremists like the Hizbos?
If you belive that Israel is not going around and grabbing people of the streets, women, kids etc and then holding them without trial for years, then that's your thing.
But I have put a link here to the BBC that will give you the numbers invloved.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5211930.stm
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Ok, so you still have no evidence to support what you are claiming. In other words, your claim that they were kidnapped has no basis whatsoever. You are showing that some were arrested, yes. How does that turn into kidnapping? Where does it say that these people were kidnapped?
Edit: Other than the 28 youths, which are probalby young men not yet 18, where are evidence that women and children have been kidnapped? Randomly ...how did you put it... pulled off the street?
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Think the world would be safer without ALL extremists, Islamics, Neo cons, Christians who think this is the rapture, the lot, the ones who advocate war and then send everyone else away apart from the ones they know and can protect, War is the biggest racket known to Man, nobody wins, apart from the rich few who make millions out of arms deals.
That's about as far as i'm going to go on the subject, it annoys me no end, becuase of war, I'm left 60% disabled, taking 3 different meds a day, numerous operations and phyiscal therapy sessions.
Has my sacrifice changed anything? Has anyones changed anything?
Nope, young men die, People at the top get rich from it, that's the bottom line in my book.
So i'm not an advocate of any side, I just want an end to senseless wars, people dying and people making money out of it.
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Originally posted by straffo
Thanks , now I can picture it clearly :
IDF bomb a builing, before it collapse the bomb explode (making no damages I guess ?) screaming "THE BUILDING WILL COLLAPSE WITHIN 8 HOURS".
It make sense.
Hehe, not so quick. It's entirely plausible for a building to collapse hours after it was damaged.
It's also entirely plausible for a building to be made to collapse hours after it was damaged. You can figure that second one out if you want.
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Originally posted by PonyDriver
Ok, so you still have no evidence to support what you are claiming. In other words, your claim that they were kidnapped has no basis whatsoever. You are showing that some were arrested, yes. How does that turn into kidnapping? Where does it say that these people were kidnapped?
Edit: Other than the 28 youths, which are probalby young men not yet 18, where are evidence that women and children have been kidnapped? Randomly ...how did you put it... pulled off the street?
Find me the quote that says the two Israeli soldiers were in Israel and were innocently pulled of the streets (kidnapped in other words)
Words, it's just words being used to anyones gain, why are you in denial? Why can't you accept that Israel arrests people with no reason and then imprisons them for no reason?
British done that for years in Ireland, funny how lots of the big time terrorists there are now well known politicians after being elected. don't see anyone from the White house advocating dropping bombs on those organizations, why? they entered into negotions with the White house and downing street, that's why, so why is the White house saying the don't talk to Terrorists? one rule for one and one rule for another.
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Originally posted by Hawco
almost and I say almost sounds plausible, RE: Explosives collapsing the building, more proaganda, more lies, more of the same, Just like killing the 4 UN people was a mistake, even after repeated warnings to the IDF, Same as Sabrah and Shatilla was covered up, till they couldn't hide it anymore.
Funny thing is, looks like the two soldiers were kidnapped, what about the thousands of Palastinian people who have been kidnapped by the Israelis ?
Many of whom are probably innocent, they weren't kidnapped though, they were arrested..
Doesn't matter who the country is, there's always one claiming they are right and the other is wrong, this all has to stop, too many innocent people are being caught up in this terrible conflict.
ok, I got to watch some CNN and SKY the last few days. I must say that the reporters are an increadibly cluless bunch. What they get is a series of pictures of human suffering which always is a good story and some background of rubble that they can stand infront in their blue vests and make a serious face. The rest they simply invent as they have no idea what is going on. They are fed bull**** by both sides spokesmen and they pic what suits them. They do not understand neither the military actions nor the political goals of the war, but shoot their mouth off never the less.
Reminds me of the "embeded" reportes in the second Gulf war that were led to all the insignificant locations so they can shoot dust and repeat the explanations given to them.
So here's some inside information which I can post here. You can believe it or not as I am a side in this conflict.
UN post:
This position was attcked by pure mistake. IDF knew about the UN post and was conducting airstrikes and firing artillery at Hizballa operating around it. The intention was to strike a different position, but by what currently seems like a human error, the wrong position was attacked. Knowing or not knowing about UN being there has nothing to do with it as their position was not supposed to be bombed at all. Friendly fire is common in war. British forces were bombed by American in Iraq. Do you think it was done on purpose?
Kanna village:
The Hizballa was firing rockets and operating from this village as the posted videos show. True, the video is not from minutes prior to the airstrike, it is just aimed to prove that it was an operating ground for Hizballa. From what I know, the building that was targeted and bombed was the building next door. The building with the civilians inside was damaged in the blast. Construction quality in that area is not very good and the side blast may have been enough to tople it. Possibly after a few hours.
This whole Kanna incident is one big predictable Hipocracy. If 60 civilians were accidently killed by 10 different bombings it would have been OK. If they are killed by 1 bomb it's murder. If the US bombs a wedding killing over 50 it's collateral damage. When Israel bomb one building and the one next door collapse killing people hiding in it, it is a massacre. Anyone wish to count the dead in Iraq or Sudan and compare to Lebanon?
As I posted several time before the incident, this kind of "second Kanna" incident is exactly what Hizballa was trying to create. I didn't expect it to really be in Kanna again.
The IDF is not capturing south Lebanon because this is not its mission. It is a wise decision as Israel is not trying to "win" this war by conquering the other side. There is no wish to create a teritorial despute as Israel is quite content with the borders marked by the UN in 2000. The aim is to keep Lebanon army intact as much as possible and allow it to deploy along the border. On the other hand, this is not a police action and no one is safe if Hizballa is using him as a shield.
If Lebanon prime minister Seniora is so worried about his citizens all he has to do is deploy Lebanon army along the Israeli border thus ending the war immediately. Israel is not asking Lebanon to surrender, give up any land or interests. It is only expected from them to keep their border quiet and Hizballa away from it. The goverment of Lebanon must not be on the loosing side of the war and it can easily come out as the winner. If he is wise he can even get Shab'a farms in the deal and be the one to "liberate" Lebanonese land.
Bozon
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Think the world would be safer without ALL extremists, Islamics, Neo cons, Christians who think this is the rapture, the lot,
Sounds reasonable to me!
the ones who advocate war and then send everyone else away apart from the ones they know and can protect, War is the biggest racket known to Man, nobody wins, apart from the rich few who make millions out of arms deals.
I have to admit that our invlovement in the viet nam war has some dubious roots.(I never researched it enough to form a definitive position)
You are saying all wars are a racket. Honestly, do you believe that about WWII?
That's about as far as i'm going to go on the subject, it annoys me no end, becuase of war, I'm left 60% disabled,.....Has my sacrifice changed anything?
I hope so... I really do. I hope your sacrifice somehow had a positive impact on our society remaining free.
So i'm not an advocate of any side,
Yes you are! You have agreed that the world would be a better place without Islamic extremists. The hizbos are Islamic extremists.
Hawco, the hizbos are fighting from and launching rockets from civilian neighborhoods. They wear civilian clothes! There are pictures coming out of there that clearly show this. Is it any wonder that, while sickening and tragic, that civilians are being killed?
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Originally posted by Hawco
If you belive that Israel is not going around and grabbing people of the streets, women, kids etc and then holding them without trial for years, then that's your thing.
But I have put a link here to the BBC that will give you the numbers invloved.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5211930.stm
I didnt see anything in that article that says, or even implies that the Israelis are kidnapping anyone. Israel claims that 70% of those held have blood on their hands.
That article does say that some of those held, a relatively small number, are being held without being charged and dont know why they are being held. I believe those people should be told why they are being held. Otoh, I dont believe Israel is going to hold people without a valid reason simply because it costs taxpayer money to keep those people jailed.
I'd be willing to bet one of those under 18 that is being held is the 12 year old boy that was caught trying to smuggle a bomb across the border into Israel.
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Why can't you accept that Israel arrests people with no reason and then imprisons them for no reason?
Hawco, you are misinterpreting my argument. What I'm saying is: I do not believe that the Israeli's are randomly, arbitrarily and without cause, arresting people. I am also saying that I'm open minded enough to acknowledge your point if you can show me some good evidence to support your claim. If this is your opinion, fine I acknowledge your right to disagree w/ me but I will not accede your claim as fact. If this is "being in denial" well... you got me there.
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wow talk about a hijack,
What does the Isralies arresting people in palestine have to do with the conflict in lebbanon? Absolutly nothing.
I've been looking most of the day and I have yet to find anything to prove or disprove the IDF claims that the building collapsed during or after the attack on it.
The point is simple though, if the building collapsed AFTER it would appear they are not specifically targeting civilians (unlike the Hazbollah) like previously accused. BUT, reguardless if these civilians died as a result of the attack or the later structural failure hezbollah continues to wage their campaign of terror amongst them and this fact is indisputable.
Again there is a propoganda war being faught as well that the IDF is losing but starting to fight back in (why the hell do you think terrorists fight amongsts civilians?)
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Thanks for that update Bozon.
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[SIZE=12]BIG BOOM FALLOUT WASTELAND[/SIZE]
problem solved its the only solution this war will never stop there will never be peace in that whole region ever.
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Originally posted by Hawco
Same as Sabrah and Shatilla was covered up, till they couldn't hide it anymore.
Horrible incident, but do you even know who killed who there? Do you know why they did it?
The news companies tend to report first and check later or not at all. But after a while it doesn't matter anymore and what's left are the initial reports and half truths. As in the massacre in "Jenin". Stupid reporters were estimating 3,000 dead. Final count was 52 Palestinians and 26 Israeli soldiers. Some massacre and I bet the IDF soldiers died of the flu while strangling babies.
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Horrible incident, but do you even know who killed who there? Do you know why they did it?
I dont, maybe you could enlighten us? :)
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Cmon hezbollah would never stage a scene.
Or would they...
http://www.factsofisrael.com/blog/archives/000012.html
They are slime and will try anything to get get global sympathy.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Elfie
I didnt see anything in that article that says, or even implies that the Israelis are kidnapping anyone. Israel claims that 70% of those held have blood on their hands.
That article does say that some of those held, a relatively small number, are being held without being charged and dont know why they are being held. I believe those people should be told why they are being held. Otoh, I dont believe Israel is going to hold people without a valid reason simply because it costs taxpayer money to keep those people jailed.
I'd be willing to bet one of those under 18 that is being held is the 12 year old boy that was caught trying to smuggle a bomb across the border into Israel.
Sure, Israel never kidnapped them just as hezbollah never kipdnapped the two soldiers, You can belive what Israels says all the time, that's your perogative.
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Originally posted by PonyDriver
Straffo, it is convenient for you Euro-appeasers to blame both sides for a conflict. This way you can try to make nice with the bad guys, thus hoping they don't bomb you. Please do not think that right thinking people are unaware of this. Tell me, when the rockets start falling in your country, your neighborhood, who will you blame along with the terrorists,your neighbors?
Google IRA and ETA before spewing up your usual line.
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Originally posted by bozon
Horrible incident, but do you even know who killed who there? Do you know why they did it?
The news companies tend to report first and check later or not at all. But after a while it doesn't matter anymore and what's left are the initial reports and half truths. As in the massacre in "Jenin". Stupid reporters were estimating 3,000 dead. Final count was 52 Palestinians and 26 Israeli soldiers. Some massacre and I bet the IDF soldiers died of the flu while strangling babies.
Seems straighforward to me Sharon unleashes the millitia in those camps, Sharon denys it, gets covered up and then alls good again,
We can twist things till our hearts content, thats debate for you.
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Originally posted by Hawco
Seems straighforward to me Sharon unleashes the millitia in those camps, Sharon denys it, gets covered up and then alls good again,
We can twist things till our hearts content, thats debate for you.
AGAIN
what does this have to do with the current conflict?????? Absolutly Nothing.
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Originally posted by Hawco
Sure, Israel never kidnapped them just as hezbollah never kipdnapped the two soldiers, You can belive what Israels says all the time, that's your perogative.
Your own link doesnt say Israel kidnapped anyone. You havent provided any proof that Israel is kidnapping people, it's just your opinion.
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Originally posted by Hawco
Seems straighforward to me
Here lies the problem. People are presented with part of the facts and some not so well established facts and draw from that the "straighforward" conclusion. It's a problem when some of these people are journalists.
We can twist things till our hearts content, thats debate for you.
No, that's real life journalism and that's the only thing I'll debate. The rest were just the facts as I know them - not from the news.
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Originally posted by Bronk
Cmon hezbollah would never stage a scene.
Or would they...
http://www.factsofisrael.com/blog/archives/000012.html
They are slime and will try anything to get get global sympathy.
Bronk
Lamers......
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like the guy says, when isreali children die, its a great victory for hezballah, a call for the lebanese to celebrate. when lebanese children die, its a war atrocity.
I was listening to the radio and a head asked the lebanese representative if the isrealis stopped shooting, would hezballah stopshooting, and the guy acted like the head was some kind of gard dang embicile. 'Why dont you ask the crimininals!!!?' 'WHy are you so one sided??' "WHy ask us that question??!?!'" The head asked him again and the Lebanese went berserk. "we are not the agressors, ask the criminals?!?!?!?"
I assume the hezbollah idea of cease fire is when the isrealis allow them to shell thier civilians without the threat of retaliation.
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Originally posted by Elfie
Your own link doesnt say Israel kidnapped anyone. You havent provided any proof that Israel is kidnapping people, it's just your opinion.
Lets break this down real simple, Israel says the two soldiers were kidnapped, Kidnapping as we all know it, usually enatils being pulled of the street etc, Were these 2 soldiers in Israel walking down the road and then kidnapped?
More likely they were in Lebanese soveriegn territory, but Israel says thay were kidnapped, not caught sneaking around in Lebanon, but kidnapped, must be true right?
How can i provide proff Israel kidnapps people, do you think they are just gonna come out and say that they do? no, of course not, they are arrested, " Threat to the state" and all that, same garbage the British pulled in Ireland, going round and lifting people out of their beds for nothing, then holding them in Prisons till they decided to let them out.
I see a tremendous amount with Palestine/Lebbanon and the Ireland/ British thing, One big neighbour imposing it's will on another and the whole world belives the big guy, Sticking people in Jails, Propaganda machines in full swing, same thing different region
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Originally posted by Hawco
Lets break this down real simple, Israel says the two soldiers were kidnapped, Kidnapping as we all know it, usually enatils being pulled of the street etc, Were these 2 soldiers in Israel walking down the road and then kidnapped?
More likely they were in Lebanese soveriegn territory, but Israel says thay were kidnapped, not caught sneaking around in Lebanon, but kidnapped, must be true right?
How can i provide proff Israel kidnapps people, do you think they are just gonna come out and say that they do? no, of course not, they are arrested, " Threat to the state" and all that, same garbage the British pulled in Ireland, going round and lifting people out of their beds for nothing, then holding them in Prisons till they decided to let them out.
I see a tremendous amount with Palestine/Lebbanon and the Ireland/ British thing, One big neighbour imposing it's will on another and the whole world belives the big guy, Sticking people in Jails, Propaganda machines in full swing, same thing different region
Almost 99.99% of all reports of the incident indicate the soldiers where patroling their 100% UN approved border on the ISRAEL side and the patrol was ambushed by gurillas.
OOPS forgot to mention 8 of them where killed.
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Israel says the two soldiers were kidnapped, Kidnapping as we all know it, usually enatils being pulled of the street etc
From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnap
It has come to mean any illegal capture or detention of persons against their will, regardless of age, as for ransom; since 1768 the term abduction was also used in this sense. Another case is when two countries are at war: enemy soldiers may be captured in another country and detained as prisoners of war under the law of the capturer's state, and suspected war criminals and those suspected of genocide or crimes against humanity may be arrested.
Sooooo, to make things real simple for you. An arrest is done within a countries legal system. Example, the police arrest someone for a crime.
Kidnapping is done for ransom, or to further another crime. The Israeli soldiers are being held for ransom, (Hezbollah wants prisoners released as a condition of releasing the soldiers, a type of ransom.) Hezbollah is also NOT a gov't agency of any country. They are a terrorist organization with both political and militant segments.
According to this information, Israel DOES arrest people and Hizbolltards DO kidnap people.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Almost 99.99% of all reports of the incident indicate the soldiers where patroling their 100% UN approved border on the ISRAEL side and the patrol was ambushed by gurillas.
OOPS forgot to mention 8 of them where killed.
That would be correct.
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Google IRA and ETA before spewing up your usual line.
What does this have to do with anything, appeaser?
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Originally posted by Elfie
That would be correct.
Next he's going to say that attacking soldiers by one terrorist group on one border kidnapping 2 and killing 8 is the same as Israel forces arresting somone carrying a bomb vest on the other side of the country on a completly different border.
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Originally posted by PonyDriver
What does this have to do with anything, appeaser?
First link in said google search is this:
Colombia fears that the I.R.A. and ETA may be using the country as a base for weapons testing and training (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=IRA+and+ETA)
I too am failing to see any connection
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/5233518.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/5233518.stm)
rut roh raggy
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Originally posted by soda72
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/5233518.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/5233518.stm)
rut roh raggy
Well hopfully more actual boots on the gound means less "accidents"
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Well hopfully more actual boots on the gound means less "accidents"
That will be the only way to stop the rocket attacks... Air force does not seem capable to react fast enough to stop them...
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Originally posted by PonyDriver
What does this have to do with anything, appeaser?
Take a wild guess.
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Originally posted by soda72
That will be the only way to stop the rocket attacks... Air force does not seem capable to react fast enough to stop them...
That and the colateral damage of fighting such a dispicable enemy is heavy loss of civilian life. I think paired against an overwhelming ground force the world will see what cowards hezbollah really is.
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Some points, or info, well AFAIK.
1. The Soldiers did get snapped within Israel Borders.
2. Before the Israelis started "countermeasure", the Hisbollah had in reasonably short time, lobbed some 1.200 missiles at Israel populated areas from within Lebanes area.
3. The Lebanese "army" has thereby not been particularly effective in stopping that.
4. As pointed out, the Hizbollah are a certified political movement within the Lebanese government/system.
5. The Israelis have been blamed for torture, "in-the-darkness arrest" and assasinations. I have little doubt they are guilty for all in some measure. When it gets to the "company" or "instituton" jobs, all things happen.
(Hehe, how Did Eichmann get on trial???).
They haven't at least used the method of headless corpses and execution videos....or ???
6. There is no way that an armed and trained enemy, hiding behind population (Women, children, establishments) can be hit without the lives of other people being endangered. This is the very life of organizations such as those lobbing the rockets.
And then a question for Straffo. How would you feel about it if a Neo-Nazi organization, not admitting the French property of Elsass and Lotringen, had lobbed 1000+ rockets at Strasbourg from German territory, while the German army stood idly by.
Sigh...the only things we learn from history is that we don't learn from history......
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Originally posted by soda72
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/5233518.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/5233518.stm)
rut roh raggy
That really doesnt say how much they are going to expand with the ground offensive. Considering Israel is calling up more reserves I would guess this is going to be a pretty major deal.
As far as world opinion goes, this will only make it worse for Israel.
I really didnt think they would do this. Just goes to show what I know. :D
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Well hopfully more actual boots on the gound means less "accidents"
Doubtful. Hezbollah dresses like civilians, hides behind civilians, forces civilians to stay in combat zones......I'd say even more civilians are going to die. :(
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Civilians are going to die. Isarelis are definately stomping on innocents while Hibollah wasnt's the things to be exactly that way.
Ugly business.
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Before the Israelis started "countermeasure", the Hisbollah had in reasonably short time, lobbed some 1.200 missiles at Israel populated areas from within Lebanes area.
Hezbollah fired rockets into Israel up to the Israeli pullout from south Lebanon in 2000. Following that pullout, Hezbollah and Israel engaged in occasional border clashes, usually, but not always, initiated by Hezbollah. They were restricted to military targets.
The only Israeli civilian killed by fire from Lebanon in the period between the Israeli pullout in 2000 and the begining of July was a 16 year old boy killed by an anti aircraft shell fired by Hezbollah at an Israeli aircraft flying over Lebanon. The shell failed to explode and fell into an Israeli village.
On 12th July Hezbollah attacked an Israeli patrol along the border, and fired a small number of rockets at two Israeli military positions as a diversion.
It wasn't until later in the day, at about the same time as Israel began shelling and bombing targets in Lebanon, that Hezbollah began firing missiles at Israeli cities.
The Israeli government gave figures for the number of rockets fired at Israel. As of 20th July, they said between 700 and 800 missiles had been fired by Hezbollah, and gave the following breakdown:
13/07/06 - 125
14/07/06 - 103
15/07/06 - 116
16/07/06 - 47
17/07/06 - 91
18/07/06 - 136
19/07/06 - 116
Total - 734
As they said 7 - 800 missiles fired, there cannot have been a large number on the 12th, and no figures are given for them.
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Originally posted by Nashwan
and fired a small number of rockets at two Israeli military positions as a diversion.
What military positions are there near Shlomi?
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No idea. I'm going by the Unifil report of events.
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Originally posted by Nashwan
No idea. I'm going by the Unifil report of events.
I can't find any reports from UNIFIL on July 12, can you point me to a source?
EDIT: I think I found what you are referring to.
"3. The crisis started when, around 9 a.m. local time, Hizbollah launched several rockets from Lebanese territory across the withdrawal line (the so-called Blue Line) towards Israel Defense Forces (IDF) positions near the coast and in the area of the Israeli town of Zarit."
http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N06/437/22/IMG/N0643722.pdf?OpenElement
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http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/unifilDrp.htm
Their description of the events of the 12th:
The crisis started when, around 9 a.m. local time, Hizbollah launched several
rockets from Lebanese territory across the withdrawal line (the so-called Blue Line)
towards Israel Defense Forces (IDF) positions near the coast and in the area of the
Israeli town of Zarit. In parallel, Hizbollah fighters crossed the Blue Line into Israel
and attacked an IDF patrol. Hizbollah captured two IDF soldiers, killed three others
and wounded two more. The captured soldiers were taken into Lebanon. Subsequent
to the attack on the patrol, a heavy exchange of fire ensued across the Blue Line
between Hizbollah and IDF: While the exchange of fire stretched over the entire
length of the Line, it was heaviest in the areas west of Bint Jubayl and in the Shab'a
farms area. Hizbollah targeted IDF positions and Israeli towns south of the Blue
Line. Israel retaliated by ground, air and sea attacks. In addition to airstrikes on
Hizbollah positions, IDF targeted numerous roads and bridges in southern Lebanon
within and outside the UNIFIL area of operations. IDF has stated that those attacks
were to "prevent Hizbollah from transferring the abducted soldiers". At least one
IDF tank and an IDF platoon crossed into Lebanon in the area of the Hizbollah
attack in an attempt to rescue the captured soldiers. An explosive device detonated
under the tank, killing four more IDF soldiers. An eighth IDF soldier was reportedly
killed in fighting that ensued during an attempt to retrieve the four bodies.
Edit: Yes, that's the report. The link above has the 6 monthly UNIFIL reports going back to 1997.
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Originally posted by Hawco
what about the thousands of Palastinian people who have been kidnapped by the Israelis ?
Well you have to remember that Palestinians, Iraqis, Lebanese and the like are not worth as much as humans (e.g. Israelis, Americans, Saudis). There is an exchange rate. The exchange rate for Iraqis to Americans is about 13:1 if you look at 9/11 deaths vs. Iraqi civilian deaths in the War on Terror. I don't know the exact figures for Israelis. But they seem to be really strong in the market right now. Two Israeli soldiers kidnapped are apparently worth 1000+ lebanese civilians. So the going rate could be as high as 500 to 1. Which means that thousands of Palestinians kidnapped are actually only handful of humans kidnapped, and we shouldn't worry about it. Sleep well.
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Originally posted by Angus
Before the Israelis started "countermeasure", the Hisbollah had in reasonably short time, lobbed some 1.200 missiles at Israel populated areas from within Lebanes area.
As Nashwan has corrected, before the 12th, Hizballa did not fire any rockets since the pull out in 2000. They did however stage periodic attacks on Israeli army positions (on the Israeli side) along the border. Generally, they'd be carful not to "push it" in order to get a proportional Israeli response - getting one or two of their outposts bombed while they are prepared for it. This has been going on for 6 years without Lebanon or the UN doing anything about it. The disproportional response was intended to break this cycle.
As for rockets fired figures there's a difference between the numbers given by the military and those given by the goverment. Basically the military count every rocket they tracked in the air. The reason is that they are mostly interested in knowing how many rockets the Hizballa still have and are they being resupplied. Many of these rockets landed in fields or in the sea and were not found. The numbers the goverment issue are rockets whose landing location was found as the bomb squads clears them.
Several more rockets are found every day by farmers and park workers.
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Originally posted by Angus
And then a question for Straffo. How would you feel about it if a Neo-Nazi organization, not admitting the French property of Elsass and Lotringen, had lobbed 1000+ rockets at Strasbourg from German territory, while the German army stood idly by.
1st it's Alsace and Lorraine :)
2nd your comparaison don't work.
Until last year Lebanon was under tight control by Syria, Lebanese army is just a joke even currently, you say it's idle ... certainly but do you really think it can move ?
Even the IDF wich is incredibly more efficient has trouble with the Hezbollah how can a ghost army expect success ? with the help of the Saoudian special forces :rofl ?
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Just like the lebanese people should leave the areas where the hezbollah has installed their rocket launchers (and disregarding the fact that the israelis are bombing the roads), the israeli people living in range of said hezbollah's rockets should leave and move further south.
No offence to you Bozon, Caligula and other posters living over there, my post is aimed as those simpletons armchair analysts whose solutions are always 'well they just should...'
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probly if you aren't strong enough to wage a war you shouldn't be poking at the neighbor who is.
You will probly suffer dissproportunate causualties. If you don't want the war you should probly make sure that none of your citizens make war for you and if they do.... you should tell the country they are bothering that you are doing everything you can to stop it and...
even... allow said countries soldiers to help you root out the hez-ebola virus.
Otherwise... you might get dissproportunate casualties.... and... it will be your own fault.
About the thousands of innocent "palestinians" kidnapped by the evil jews.... Why do they do that? Must be expensive and boring... What do they hope to accomplish by that..
oh... and funked.. next time you are in the teachers lounge... ask em for me how they get those poor nobel "palestinians" to stay in the houses while they drive take the 20 minutes or an hour it takes to bulldoze one wouldja?
And... could ya maybe get jordan and syria to give back the land they took from the poor "palestinians"? I guess that if jordan and syria do it it is ok tho.... just not the jews?
lazs
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Yet another twist in the propaganda war.
Lebanese rescue teams did not start evacuating the building until the morning and only after the camera crews came. The absence of a real rescue effort was explained by saying that equipment was lacking. There were no scenes of live or injured people being extracted.
There was little blood, CNN's Wedeman noted: all the victims, he concluded, appeared to have died while as they were sleeping -- sleeping, apparently, through thunderous Israeli air attacks. Rescue workers equipped with cameras were removing the bodies from the same opening in the collapsed structure. Journalists were not allowed near the collapsed building.
Rescue workers filmed as they went carried the victims on the stretchers, occasionally flipping up the blankets so that cameras could show the faces and bodies of the dead.
But Israelis steeled to scenes of carnage from Palestinian suicide bombings and Hezbollah rocket attack could not help but notice that these victims did not look like our victims. Their faces were ashen gray. While medical examination clearly is called for to arrive at a definitive dating and cause of their deaths, they do not appear to have died hours before. The bodies looked like they had been dead for days.
Viewers can judge for themselves. But the accumulating evidence suggests another explanation for what happened at Kana. The scenario would be a setup in which the time between the initial Israeli bombing near the building and morning reports of its collapse would have been used to "plant" bodies killed in previous fighting -- reports in previous days indicated that nearby Tyre was used as a temporary morgue -- place them in the basement, and then engineer a "controlled demolition" to fake another Israeli attack.
The well-documented use by Palestinians of this kind of faked footage -- from the alleged shooting of Mohammed Dura in Gaza, scenes from Jenin of "dead" victims falling off gurneys and then climbing back on -- have merited the creation of a new film genre called "Palliwood."
There is increasing evidence that the Kana sequel is another episode in this genre, a variety which might be called Hezbollywood. The Hezbollah have evidently learned their craft well.
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Palliwood."
:rofl
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Yet another twist in the propaganda war.
Can you give a link please.
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The source for that article is http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Diplomacy/8997.htm
It's full of glaring errors.
For example:
Lebanese rescue teams did not start evacuating the building until the morning and only after the camera crews came.
In which case the BBC must have been very slow off the mark, as they showed ambulances driving past them leaving the site as the BBC was still heading towards it.
Rescue workers equipped with cameras were removing the bodies from the same opening in the collapsed structure. Journalists were not allowed near the collapsed building.
The BBC's Fergal Keene was right by the building reporting:
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/878_1154449671_bbcreport.jpg)
The BBC news report is at:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5232434.stm#
(Edit: direct link doesn't work, Video and Audio, Reports and analysis, then "Dozens killed in Lebanon air raid")
But Israelis steeled to scenes of carnage from Palestinian suicide bombings and Hezbollah rocket attack could not help but notice that these victims did not look like our victims. Their faces were ashen gray.
Getting pulled out of a collapsed building in a hot dusty enviroment tends to do that to you. Lots of dust about.
The few shots of bodies in the BBC report (the BBC tends not to linger on the bodies) certainly don't show anything inconsistent with recent deaths.
Of course, people will still choose to believe a blantant progaganda piece (although maybe not for too long, the IDF is already changing their story on Qana, and more details are likely to emerge in the next few days and weeks)
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Originally posted by Nashwan
The source for that article is http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Diplomacy/8997.htm
It's full of glaring errors.
For example:
In which case the BBC must have been very slow off the mark, as they showed ambulances driving past them leaving the site as the BBC was still heading towards it.
The BBC's Fergal Keene was right by the building reporting:
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/878_1154449671_bbcreport.jpg)
The BBC news report is at:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5232434.stm#
(not sure if link will work, you need to look for the story "Dozens killed in Lebanon air raid"
Getting pulled out of a collapsed building in a hot dusty enviroment tends to do that to you. Lots of dust about.
The few shots of bodies in the BBC report (the BBC tends not to linger on the bodies) certainly don't show anything inconsistent with recent deaths.
Of course, people will still choose to believe a blantant progaganda piece (although maybe not for too long, the IDF is already changing their story on Qana, and more details are likely to emerge in the next few days and weeks)
One man's blatent propoganda is anothers suspician that requires independent investigation.
Those can condemen israel all they want for propaganda and stooping to terrorists levels but IMHO if they didn't they'd lose this conflict without any type of military defeat.
But lets examine this for a moment:
In which case the BBC must have been very slow off the mark, as they showed ambulances driving past them leaving the site as the BBC was still heading towards it.
So the team wasn't there when they FIRST started.....OK
The BBC's Fergal Keene was right by the building reporting:
But not a shot of anyone inside the building?
(note: I do beleive that is what the author was trying to convey as the amount of grandstanding done outside the building one would assume they'd want to carnage shown inside as well)
Getting pulled out of a collapsed building in a hot dusty enviroment tends to do that to you. Lots of dust about.
There's alot of other shots that show different. From the photos I've seen only one child was actually covered in dust/concrete. Other photos of "victims" had heavy rigor mortis set in. Of course they are inappropriate for this forum so I will post no link to them.
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Yet more speculation:
Lebanese website blames Hizbullah for Qana deaths
Anti-Syrian elements in Lebanon openly point finger at Hizbullah as guilty of killing of dozens of civilians in order to curtail plans for disarming group. 'Hizbullah has placed rocket launcher on building's roof and brought invalid children inside in bid to provoke Israeli response,' they write
Roee Nahmias
Is Hizbullah behind the tragic incident in the village of Qana that claimed the lives of some 60 people? While the Israeli army continues to investigate the circumstances leading to the building's collapse, some in Lebanon do not hesitate to point the finger at the *****e organization and claim it is to blame for the death of dozens.
The Lebanese website LIBANOSCOPIE , associated with Christian elements in the country and which openly supports the anti-Syrian movement called the "March 14 Forces," reported that Hizbullah has masterminded a plan that would result in the killing of innocents in the Qana village, in a bid to foil Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora's "Seven Points Plan", which calls for deployment of the Lebanese army in southern Lebanon and the disarming of Hizbullah.
'Disabled children placed inside building'
"We have it from a credible source that Hizbullah, alarmed by Siniora's plan, has concocted an incident that would help thwart the negotiations. Knowing full well that Israel will not hesitate to bombard civilian targets, Hizbullah gunmen placed a rocket launcher on the roof in Qana and brought disabled children inside, in a bid to provoke a response by the Israeli Air Force. In this way, they were planning to take advantage of the death of innocents and curtail the negotiation initiative," the site stated.
The site's editors also claimed that not only did Hizbullah stage the event, but that it also chose Qana for a specific reason: "They used Qana because the village had already turned into a symbol for massacring innocent civilians, and so they set up 'Qana 2'." Notably, the incident has indeed been dubbed "The second Qana massacre" by the Arab media.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3284514,00.html#n
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Lets hope the Israeli Air Force have the footage of the rocket launcher on the roof.
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Originally posted by Trikky
Lets hope the Israeli Air Force have the footage of the rocket launcher on the roof.
It'll be found right next to the smuggled from Iraq (by a hizbollah driver) Mobile WMD lab which was just about to launch a chemical rain storm down till the timely intervention by the IDF
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Originally posted by Trikky
Lets hope the Israeli Air Force have the footage of the rocket launcher on the roof.
They dont necessarily need that, but I suspect they do. How else would they know which targets to hit? If this whole thing was staged by Hezbollah all they need to show is that it was staged.
Of course IF it was staged, no amount of evidence would convince Muslims or some folks on this board. ;)
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The IDF believes that Hizbullah explosives in the building were behind the explosion that caused the collapse.
And finally the WMD from Iraq was found.
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Originally posted by Maniac
And finally the WMD from Iraq was found.
How so? If Iraq's WMD had been used to bring down that building....it would have been a nuclear device, since chemical and biological weapons in and of themselves dont explode. If they had used chemical weapons, the rescuers would have gotten contaminated and died. Same with biological weapons only the deaths take longer. So that leaves us with a nuclear device.......if it had been a nuclear device the entire town would be gone including the bodies in that building. If that were the case there would be no discussion of this matter since there would have been no bodies left as evidence of civilian deaths. :D
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Originally posted by Trikky
Lets hope the Israeli Air Force have the footage of the rocket launcher on the roof.
From what I know the building that was hit (and was targeted) was the one next to this building (there will be no launcher on the roof, I'm pretty sure). A pretty big bomb was used and the civilians building likely collapsed due to the side blast.
I know positively about several cases of staged casualties in the past, but I don't believe this is the case here. This is just a hunch as I don't have real info to form a real opinion. Sounds too much like a cheap consppiracy theory.
Hizballa however waited for this incident for over two weeks and made the most propaganda out of it. Rescuers made a show out of it for the press and you can see the same person carrying the same dead child posing for several photographers in different locations.
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Originally posted by bozon
From what I know the building that was hit (and was targeted) was the one next to this building (there will be no launcher on the roof, I'm pretty sure). A pretty big bomb was used and the civilians building likely collapsed due to the side blast.
I know positively about several cases of staged casualties in the past, but I don't believe this is the case here. This is just a hunch as I don't have real info to form a real opinion. Sounds too much like a cheap consppiracy theory.
Hizballa however waited for this incident for over two weeks and made the most propaganda out of it. Rescuers made a show out of it for the press and you can see the same person carrying the same dead child posing for several photographers in different locations.
I don't want to post the link here but do a google search on: confederate yankee, qana
The guy posts some interesting questions that there's no easy way to write off.
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I googled for that. It seems to me that this event was most likely staged. Rigormortis doesnt even begin to set in until several hours after death and some of those corpses had full blown rigormortis which doesnt happen for 12 - 24 hours after death.
An interesting point brought up by Confederate Yankee......
If the media and rescue workers had no difficulties getting to Qana from Tyre, why couldnt civilians leave?
All pictures of the *rescue workers* show people in clean clothes. How do your clothes not get dirty and bloody from rescue attempts in that type of environment.
It isnt proven that this event was staged yet, but preliminary evidence is suggesting that so far.
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Has anyone been able to explain the Pentagon 9/11 crash pictures yet? or the hollywood produced moon landing pictures?
:noid
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Maniac,
Yeah they have...All those shots were genuine.
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Originally posted by Elfie
I googled for that. It seems to me that this event was most likely staged. Rigormortis doesnt even begin to set in until several hours after death and some of those corpses had full blown rigormortis which doesnt happen for 12 - 24 hours after death.
An interesting point brought up by Confederate Yankee......
If the media and rescue workers had no difficulties getting to Qana from Tyre, why couldnt civilians leave?
All pictures of the *rescue workers* show people in clean clothes. How do your clothes not get dirty and bloody from rescue attempts in that type of environment.
It isnt proven that this event was staged yet, but preliminary evidence is suggesting that so far.
you'd think that somone in the news media could take a little bit of time to notice these things but they don't.
That one pic that shows 5 or 6 bodies side by side almost all of them are in full rigor mortis. not a single body shown in any of the pics had any significant blood on them and half of them, AND the resuce workers where clean of dust and debris.
These are valid questions to be asking but the world media doesn't ask them.
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Rigormortis doesnt even begin to set in until several hours after death and some of those corpses had full blown rigormortis which doesnt happen for 12 - 24 hours after death.
AFAIK it happens faster in warmer temperatures.
However, what none of the conspiracy blogs seem to have mentioned is that the building didn't collapse at 8am.
The IDF bombed the building at about 1 am, according to both the IDF and the eyewitnesses.
The IDF said in a briefing the next day that:
"I can't say whether the house collapsed at 12 A.M. or at 8 A.M.," said Eshel. "According to foreign press reports, and this is one of the reports we are relying on, the house collapsed at 8 A.M. We do not have testimony regarding the time of the collapse. If the house collapsed at 12 A.M., it is difficult for me to believe that they waited eight hours to evacuate it."
In fact, the Lebanese Red Cross first received a call for assistance at 7am, but eyewitnesses in the village said the building collapsed about 1am, about 10 minutes after the first strike (and there may not have been a second, what they report as a second explosion may have been the building collapsing)
There's no actual evidence the building collapsed at 7am, and a delay of 6 hours in getting the attention of the Red Cross doesn't seem that remarkable considering the number of buildings that have colllapsed in Lebanon in the last few weeks, and the probable state of telephone communications in Qana.
If the media and rescue workers had no difficulties getting to Qana from Tyre, why couldnt civilians leave?
Perhaps they haven't got transport? Perhaps they have nowhere else to go? Perhaps they thought they'd be safer staying put, rather than risk being bombed on the road?
All pictures of the *rescue workers* show people in clean clothes. How do your clothes not get dirty and bloody from rescue attempts in that type of environment.
This seems the most ridiculous claim of all.
Watching the BBC video report, the rescuers don't seem particulary clean or dirty. But the men the BBC actually shows digging in the rubble don't seem any dirtier, and whatever caused the explosion, they are actually pulling rubble aside. So either the rubble is carefully engineered polystyrene, or that's how dirty you get moving rubble.
So, is the claim:
A: that it isn't real rubble
B: that Hezbollah put the bodies in an intact building, then blew it up, then pulled the bodies out for the world's press
C: that Hezbollah put bodies in the rubble of an already collapsed building, then pulled the bodies out for the world's press?
Either B or C will have "rescue workers" looking just as dirty as real rescue workers, so the claim they look too clean is just stupid. A is just too bizarre for words.
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Nashwan I've seen vids and pics of other rescue operations and the rescue workers can get pretty dirty especially digging around in collapsed buildings. In the pics I saw of this incident it struck me as strange that none of the rescue workers was the least bit dirty.
If rigormortis does set in faster in warmer environments it could explain why some of the bodies have rigormortis already. It doesnt explain how some have rigor and some dont.
Of the pics that I have seen, only one victim's body was covered in dust. That too seems strange. If those bodies were in the building when it collapsed it would seem logical that all of them should be covered in dust. And lots of it all over them, in their hair etc.
It's all speculation at this point though.
In fact, the Lebanese Red Cross first received a call for assistance at 7am, but eyewitnesses in the village said the building collapsed about 1am, about 10 minutes after the first strike (and there may not have been a second, what they report as a second explosion may have been the building collapsing)
According to the IDF there were multiple strikes on that town throughout the night. I believe the IDF said they hit the building next to this one at midnight, which would make the eyewitness account of the collapse at *1am, about 10 minutes after the first strike* incorrect.
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Hizballah's Body Handler Photographed in 1996
EU Referendum has an update on the Hizballah “rescue worker” in the green helmet, the guy who paraded around with children’s bodies for hours at Qana, posing them for photographers.
Turns out that Green Helmet Guy must be the official Hizballah body handler; he has a history of turning up at attack sites and putting on ghoulish shows. EU Referendum found a photo from 1996, apparently showing the same person displaying another dead child to photographers: Who Is This Man? (WARNING: Graphic images.)
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=21870_Hizballahs_Body_Handler_Photographed_in_1996&only
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In fact, the Lebanese Red Cross first received a call for assistance at 7am, but eyewitnesses in the village said the building collapsed about 1am, about 10 minutes after the first strike (and there may not have been a second, what they report as a second explosion may have been the building collapsing)
I have YET to see this in ANY news report.
Again you are defending speculation without any sort of fact. The BBC pics alone don't paint the whole picture. These aren't conspiracy blogs that we get our info from they are people that write about stuff the MSM refuses to write about every single day. Goto http://confederateyankee.mu.nu/ and look for yourself.
Even the body count is in dispute as the red cross says only 29 dead where as it was said 56+ where dead earlier. If this is such a tragedy wouldn't more accuracy entail?
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Originally posted by straffo
1st it's Alsace and Lorraine :)
2nd your comparaison don't work.
Until last year Lebanon was under tight control by Syria, Lebanese army is just a joke even currently, you say it's idle ... certainly but do you really think it can move ?
Even the IDF wich is incredibly more efficient has trouble with the Hezbollah how can a ghost army expect success ? with the help of the Saoudian special forces :rofl ?
So they can't do anything about the Hizbollah? Or they just won't? The Syrians Won't. The Israelis do.
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(http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/06.08.01.QanaMassacre-X.gif)
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Would seem that the zionist propaganda machine has a problem in relation to the strike now.
Read this link from a Jewish newspaper.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/745185.html
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Originally posted by Hawco
Would seem that the zionist propaganda machine has a problem in relation to the strike now.
Read this link from a Jewish newspaper.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/745185.html
Same with the hezbollah
Meanwhile, the Lebanese Red Cross workers reported on Monday that 28 bodies, 19 of them children, were removed from the rubble.
The count is lower than the some 60 bodies reported by news agencies, quoting Lebanese security officials. Survivors say 60 people were in the building at the time of the strike.
And still no one has a decent explaination for the pictures taken at the site.
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And still no one has a decent explanation for the other 99.9% of civilian casualties and destruction of property.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
And still no one has a decent explanation for the other 99.9% of civilian casualties and destruction of property.
and on CNN last night, no sign of any rocket launchers or other weapons in the rubble or surrounding area, here in Qana and other places as stated by Red Cross
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
And still no one has a decent explanation for the other 99.9% of civilian casualties and destruction of property.
Just using simple math based on your statement you are saying of all the targets that the IDF has hit only 0.01% of them are valid?
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Originally posted by xrtoronto
and on CNN last night, no sign of any rocket launchers or other weapons in the rubble or surrounding area, here in Qana and other places as stated by Red Cross
I guess they havn't seen the video of rockets being launched in the area. But according to pictures taken by AP photographers not many of the bodies recovered came from the rubble either.
EDIT:
Here's the questions that need answers
When did the building collapse, and what caused the collapse?
Were the photos taken of the victims staged?
Why do the bodies of the victims not show the crushing injuries one would expect in a building collapse?
Why weren’t journalists allowed near the building?
Why is their such a discrepancy in the initial casualty figures cited to the world (55-60) and the number of bodes recovered by the Lebanese Red Cross (28)?
Who is the man known as “Green Helmet” who was in so many of these pictures, and why was he in other, similar photos dating back to 1996?
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No
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
No
You are brilliant!
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Thx :)
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From the Jerusalem post,
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?apage=1&cid=1153292055086&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
The IDF is looking into allegations raised over the past few days by several pro-Israel, Jewish and conservative Weblogs that Hizbullah may have staged aspects of the Kana tragedy on Sunday, in which some 60 Lebanese bodies were removed from a building that collapsed seven hours after being hit in an Israel Air Force strike.
The dead were mainly children, women and elderly people.
The International Committee of the Red Cross Mission in Israel said Tuesday that it would inform its Swiss headquarters about the allegations and seek to clarify the questions raised.
Israel has acknowledged hitting the building, and said 150 Katyushas had been fired from the village in the previous 20 days, with Hizbullah hiding rocket launchers in civilian buildings there. Israel said it did not know civilians were inside the building and expressed sorrow over the tragedy.
In a speech on Monday night, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said he deeply regretted the deaths of civilians there. "We did not seek to harm them, we did not want their death," he said. "They were not our enemies, they were not the target of our aircraft."
At a press conference on Sunday night, Air Force Chief of Staff Brig.-Gen. Amir Eshel said the building was struck by IAF missiles a little after midnight, but only collapsed seven hours later, at about 7 a.m.
Eshel said he could not explain what caused the structure to collapse so many hours after it was hit, and speculated, while stressing that he had no conclusive evidence, about whether Hizbullah had played a role in what had transpired, perhaps by firing on the building itself.
Another possibility that has been raised is that the building sustained damage from the original strike, but collapsed only later from structural damage or the impact of further IAF strikes nearby. Alternatively, the building may have contained Hizbullah weaponry that detonated after the strike.
MK Benny Elon (National Union) suggested Tuesday that Hizbullah may have played a role in the building's collapse in an attempt to prevent an international force from entering Lebanon and to place blame on Israel.
"In general, Hizbullah prevents citizens from moving from places that the IDF is attacking. This time it was more," said Elon. "It wasn't just prohibiting citizens from leaving this time, it was bringing refugees that aren't residents of Kafr Kana to areas that they know are going to be attacked. And to be sure it's attacked, Hizbullah fires from the building next door in order to create the crisis and in order to create the pictures."
According to Elon, Hizbullah took such action in an attempt to recreate the situation at Kafr Kana in 1996, which resulted in a withdrawal of Israeli troops from Lebanon.
"What they wanted to do was 'deja vu.' Last time, Kafr Kana was the end of the conflict... and this time they expected that the results would be the same: cease-fire," said Elon. "They needed the cease fire immediately because of the results of the war so far and their fear that UN Resolution 1559 can be enforced and fulfilled by the international force."
According to Elon, the IDF had "sources and information which were sure that civilians had left the area after warning pamphlets were dropped," but the information turned out to be mistaken.
According to one of the Web sites raising questions about the affair, Israel Insider, "the accumulating evidence suggests another explanation for what happened at Kana. The scenario would be a setup in which the time between the initial bombing near the building and morning reports of its collapse would have been used to 'plant' bodies killed in previous fighting... place them in the basement, and then engineer a 'controlled demolition' to fake another Israeli attack
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I guess they havn't seen the video of rockets being launched in the area.
The IDF has now admitted that no missiles had been fired from Qana in the previous day, and the building was targeted because it was near an area where missiles had been fired in the past.
When did the building collapse, and what caused the collapse?
According to the eyewitness accounts, around 1 am, during or shortly after IDF attacks on the area.
The IDF have said the only information they have is from the foreign press, who were notified at 8am. The Lebanese Red Cross say they were informed at 7am.
Were the photos taken of the victims staged?
Staged in what way? Did someone display a body for the press to get better pictures? Almost certainly.
Why do the bodies of the victims not show the crushing injuries one would expect in a building collapse?
Crushing injuries are often not visible. Try looking for photos of victims of various Iranian earthquakes, as the situations should be similar.
Why weren’t journalists allowed near the building?
They were. Why is such a claim being made when there is film evidence to the contrary?
Why is their such a discrepancy in the initial casualty figures cited to the world (55-60) and the number of bodes recovered by the Lebanese Red Cross (28)?
It often goes that way.
63 people were reported to be sheltering in the building. 9 survivors were know shortly after the building collapsed, which gave the initial death toll of 54. Another 13 survivors have since been found/come forward, leaving 41 people dead/unaccounted for. 28 bodies have been recovered, 13 people are still missing. The rescue efforts have moved on to other buildings, it might take many days to fully excavate this site.
There's nothing unusual in this. The initial reports of casualties in the WTC were well over 7,000, it wasn't until more than a month afterwards that the figure dropped below 7,000, iirc, and the final figures was around 2,700, again iirc.
Who is the man known as “Green Helmet” who was in so many of these pictures, and why was he in other, similar photos dating back to 1996?
Just as a guess, he's a Lebanese man from the area.
Is it really suprising that a rescue worker in 1996 is still a rescue worker 10 years later, and still living in the same area? People in the third world tend to remain in jobs longer, and are far less likely to leave the area they were born in than people in the first world.
Even if he is not a rescue worker, is it suprising that the same man is helping rescue efforts 10 years later? I know if there'd been a disaster in my area I'd have been helping 10 years ago, and would be helping again today if there was another disaster.
Quite honestly, this is one of the silliest conspiracy theories I've seen. Everything is based on pure supposition.
There isn't actually a shred of evidence that points to anything other than the building collapsing as, or shortly after, it was hit by the IDF, and trapping people in the rubble. If there is, the conspiracy theorists have yet to provide it.
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but your reply is based soley on sources from the ground......sources that benifit from this being a massacere.
Journalists where not allowed near the colllapsed building, the one shown in the pic you posted is not the building in question. Journalist where positioned in what is reffered to as stretcher alley
Injurys aside there is still NO blood on any of the victoms
You cannot explain why some of them are CLEAN, free of dust, and look like they've been dead a while.
You cannot explain why some of them are in FULL rigor mortis after only 7 or 1 hours (again depending on your source)
lastly I'd like to see your source where the IDF says no missles where fired from the area.
PS the "green helmet" wasn't digging anyone out of any rubble as again he was wearing black and completly clean. He was there to parade dead children around in front of the media. That's all that he appears to be doing.
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Journalists where not allowed near the colllapsed building, the one shown in the pic you posted is not the building in question.
Of course it is. He's standing right by the building as the pass rubble out. Have you actually watched the video report? How about this one from Sky news, he's also right by the building:
http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,31200-bowden_p18194,00.html#
What do you base this claim that journalists were not allowed near on?
Injurys aside there is still NO blood on any of the victoms
I certainly saw blood on some of them, but again in a dry, dusty enviroment, people buried by rubble aren't likely to have a lot of blood visible.
How many shots of earthquake victims show lots of blood?
You cannot explain why some of them are CLEAN, free of dust, and look like they've been dead a while.
Sorry, none of them look that way to me.
There's a photo of two of the dead children on the BBC news site. One is very dusty, the other fairly clean. But if you look at the cleaner girl, half her face is very dirty. This is entirely consistent if she was covered by bedclothes, for example.
Go to a site called globalresearch.ca it has a series of photographs from Qana (they aren't on the main page). The pictures look entirely consistent with survivors pulled from the rubble of a collapsed building, and I challenge you to look at them and claim otherwise.
Don't forget, the worse the injuries on a body, the less likely it is to make the news in the "MSM". The BBC, for example, would never show many of the injuries suffered.
You cannot explain why some of them are in FULL rigor mortis after only 7 or 1 hours (again depending on your source)
After 7 hours? How do you know these pictures are from 8am when the press turned up, and not say 10am, when they were still brining bodies out?
And even 7 hours is easily long enough to develop rigor mortis.
lastly I'd like to see your source where the IDF says no missles where fired from the area.
On the day.
"As the Israel Air Force continues to investigate the air strike, questions have been raised over military accounts of the incident.
It now appears that the military had no information on rockets launched from the site of the building, or the presence of Hezbollah men at the time.
The Israel Defense Forces had said after the deadly air-strike that many rockets had been launched from Qana. However, it changed its version on Monday.
The site was included in an IAF plan to strike at several buildings in proximity to a previous launching site. Similar strikes were carried out in the past. However, there were no rocket launches from Qana on the day of the strike.
"
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArtVty.jhtml?sw=qana&itemNo=745185
but your reply is based soley on sources from the ground......sources that benifit from this being a massacere.
And the conspiracy theories emanate from people who weren't at the scene, and have a clear agenda.
So, of course, someone in Peoria who has never been outside the US has a better idea of what happened in the middle of the night in Qana than someone who was actually there?
A lot of journalists and camera crews went to Qana. How many of them, the foreign press who were actually there, are supporting the conspiracy claims? None.
So obvioulsy the man in Peoria knows better than the journalists who were there, too.
These conspiracy theories might have some credibility if they came from someone with some actual knowledge of the incident, but no-one who has any knowledge of the incident is making such claims.
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Some of the sources on the ground say the building collapsed NOT at 1 but later that morning. The IDF says that specific building was not hit.
I didn't see once in that video of them actually pulling anyone out of any rubble. Again they let them film at the top of the hill but not at the building itself....at least not while they where digging bodies out.
And again, I've only heard ONE person say the building collapsed at 1AM when everyone else is saying it happened in the morning at after 7. It was shortly after 7AM when emergancy crews arrived and around 8AM when the newsies showed up.
That being said full rigor mortis does not set in that soon reguardless of temp. Even in the video you posted one of the bodies had an arm almost fully extended and stiff.
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There were lots of rockets fired from in and around Qana, just not on the day of the airstrike. Just a guess, but that might be where the confusion came from concerning the IDF.
I dont see this as a consipiracy theory. I've seen lots of different pics and some of the stuff just doesnt add up.
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lololol
damn, justa sec...
crapcrap crap.... :mad: :mad: :furious :furious :furious
any1 know how 2 post a gif when the filename dont end in '.gif'???
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Originally posted by Elfie
There were lots of rockets fired from in and around Qana, just not on the day of the airstrike. Just a guess, but that might be where the confusion came from concerning the IDF.
The attack was made around 1 am. Hizballa doesn't fire rockets that late at night and the attack was not of the "laucher hunting" type.
Plenty of rockets were launched from Qana. In one of the films IDF spokesman released you can see the launcher trucks park inside buildings. Any building which was observed or had other intel to have been used by Hizballa operatives has a death mark on it. It is not always bombed immediately for various reasons. The building next to the one which collapsed was such.
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I was just talking about how initially, the IDF reported that rockets had been fired from Qana, then later clarified that they hadnt been fired the same day of the airstrike, but earlier.
Appreciate the info that you are able to give us Bozon. :)
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Originally posted by Elfie
I googled for that. It seems to me that this event was most likely staged. Rigormortis doesnt even begin to set in until several hours after death and some of those corpses had full blown rigormortis which doesnt happen for 12 - 24 hours after death.
Hey mister Expert, you're incompetent.
And Rigor Mortis depend of the environement : think of the TEMPERATURE.
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btw, here's the video IDF spokesman released of rocket fired from Qana and launchers hiding in civilian buildings. Again, this is NOT from immediately before the fatal air strike:
http://www1.idf.il/SIP_STORAGE/DOVER/files/3/55363.wmv
Houses that were seen when launchers parked in them, where rockets were pulled out of storage and loaded on the trucks or operatives got off the trucks and went inside, etc, are marked as targets and are attacked. In some cases at a later time.
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Again, more denials and half baked truths, starting to become very tiresome to be honest.
Israel-Firsters have no shame.
Read their posts on this board:
-- Don't discuss the issue, attack the "politics" of the author
-- Answer a question with many questions
-- Change the subject
-- Never admit you are wrong
-- Re-interpret plain English to mean something else
-- Always blame the victim of Israeli atrocities
-- Israelis are the only true victims
-- Accuse all critics of being an anti-semite or self-hating Jew
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Originally posted by Hawco
Again, more denials and half baked truths, starting to become very tiresome to be honest.
Israel-Firsters have no shame.
Read their posts on this board:
-- Don't discuss the issue, attack the "politics" of the author
-- Answer a question with many questions
-- Change the subject
-- Never admit you are wrong
-- Re-interpret plain English to mean something else
-- Always blame the victim of Israeli atrocities
-- Israelis are the only true victims
-- Accuse all critics of being an anti-semite or self-hating Jew
The exact same thing can be said of the opposite. No one wants to answer these questions and they just lead to more questions.
No one thinking that this was a set up or deserving of investigation has "changed the subject" That was done early on when the palistinians where brought up.
These questions lead to questions and more questions as solid information is hard to come by
I don't see where we've been wrong
I lay blame where it is due. If the area had been used as a launcing site for rockets and the population was significantly warned than it is a legitimate target. The ones to blame are the ones launching rockets not at military targets but intentionally targeting civilians. They are the ones that drew the wrath of the IDF onto that town.
You obviously havn't read the last 2 pages as the debate has been about the facts
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Originally posted by Hawco
Think the world would be safer without ALL extremists, Islamics, Neo cons, Christians who think this is the rapture, the lot, the ones who advocate war and then send everyone else away apart from the ones they know and can protect, War is the biggest racket known to Man, nobody wins, apart from the rich few who make millions out of arms deals.
That's about as far as i'm going to go on the subject, it annoys me no end, becuase of war, I'm left 60% disabled, taking 3 different meds a day, numerous operations and phyiscal therapy sessions.
Has my sacrifice changed anything? Has anyones changed anything?
Nope, young men die, People at the top get rich from it, that's the bottom line in my book.
So i'm not an advocate of any side, I just want an end to senseless wars, people dying and people making money out of it.
Be careful, Hawco. With comments like the one you just made, you might cause some of these idiots to contact Swiftboat and challenge your claims.
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Originally posted by Red Tail 444
Be careful, Hawco. With comments like the one you just made, you might cause some of these idiots to contact Swiftboat and challenge your claims.
I keep hearing this word "swiftboat" being brought up time and time again. It's OLD get over it. There's no one in here railroading anyone. The facts of this case SCREAM to be examined as they do not add up at all. It'd be alot easier if I could post the pics in question but they are inappropriate for this forum so I wont.
Maybe you could do somthing constructive like research (or make up) a link that has this whole thing ordered by Cheny with the bombs being sold and delivered by Haliburton in a plan concocted by Rove to help out in the upcoming elections.
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Love your signature gunslinger, just noticed it lol wtg sir !
PS. think the next person to get a visit from the swiftboats is gonna be Republican Chuck Nagle INMHO
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Thanks hawco
In related news, it's not hard to conceive this is blatent propaganda when it has been reported that hezbollah is controling the media on their side.
CNN senior international correspondent Nic Robertson admitted that his anti-Israel report from Beirut on July 18 about civilian casualties in Lebanon was stage-managed from start to finish by Hezbollah. He revealed that his story was heavily influenced by Hezbollah’s “press officer” and that Hezbollah have “very, very sophisticated and slick media operations.”
When pressed a few days later about his reporting on the CNN program Reliable Sources, Robertson acknowledged that Hezbollah militants had instructed the CNN camera team where and what to film. Hezbollah “had control of the situation,” Robertson said. “They designated the places that we went to, and we certainly didn’t have time to go into the houses or lift up the rubble to see what was underneath.”
Robertson added that Hezbollah has “very, very good control over its areas in the south of Beirut. They deny journalists access into those areas. You don’t get in there without their permission. We didn’t have enough time to see if perhaps there was somebody there who was, you know, a taxi driver by day, and a Hezbollah fighter by night.”
Yet Reliable Sources, hosted by Washington Post writer Howard Kurtz, is broadcast only on the American version of CNN. So CNN International viewers around the world will not have had the opportunity to learn from CNN’s “Senior international correspondent” that the pictures they saw from Beirut were carefully selected for them by Hezbollah.
Another journalist let the cat out of the bag last week. Writing on his blog while reporting from southern Lebanon, Time contributor Christopher Allbritton, casually mentioned in the middle of a posting: “To the south, along the curve of the coast, Hezbollah is launching Katyushas, but I’m loathe to say too much about them. The Party of God has a copy of every journalist’s passport, and they’ve already hassled a number of us and threatened one.”
Robertson is not the only foreign journalist to have misled viewers with selected footage from Beirut. NBC’s Richard Engel, CBS’s Elizabeth Palmer, and a host of European and other networks, were also taken around the damaged areas by Hezbollah minders. Palmer commented on her report that “Hizbullah is also determined that outsiders will only see what it wants them to see.”
I'm not saying that these quotes are in response to this incident but laying out what appears to be SOP for media relations in south.
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Originally posted by straffo
Hey mister Expert, you're incompetent.
And Rigor Mortis depend of the environement : think of the TEMPERATURE.
Exactly, thats why there is a variable given on when rigormortis sets in.
*edit* At no time on this board have I ever been rude to you or attacked you. Please try to remain civil in the future. :)
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Rigor mortis:
http://chemistry.about.com/cs/biochemistry/a/aa061903a.htm
Rigor mortis can be used to help estimate time of death. The onset of rigor mortis may range from 10 minutes to several hours, depending on factors including temperature (rapid cooling of a body can inhibit rigor mortis, but it occurs upon thawing). Maximum stiffness is reached around 12-24 hours post mortem. Facial muscles are affected first, with the rigor then spreading to other parts of the body. The joints are stiff for 1-3 days, but after this time general tissue decay and leaking of lysosomal intracellular digestive enzymes will cause the muscles to relax. It is interesting to note that meat is generally considered to be more tender if it is eaten after rigor mortis has passed.
The question Gunslinger and I both have concerning rigor mortis isnt the fact that rigor mortis has set in. It's that some of the corpses have full blown rigor mortis and some are just in the initial stages. If all these people died when the building collapsed wouldnt their various stages of rigor mortis at least be similar? Temperature affects all the corpses in that building equally does it not?
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Originally posted by Elfie
Rigor mortis:
http://chemistry.about.com/cs/biochemistry/a/aa061903a.htm
Rigor mortis can be used to help estimate time of death. The onset of rigor mortis may range from 10 minutes to several hours, depending on factors including temperature (rapid cooling of a body can inhibit rigor mortis, but it occurs upon thawing). Maximum stiffness is reached around 12-24 hours post mortem. Facial muscles are affected first, with the rigor then spreading to other parts of the body. The joints are stiff for 1-3 days, but after this time general tissue decay and leaking of lysosomal intracellular digestive enzymes will cause the muscles to relax. It is interesting to note that meat is generally considered to be more tender if it is eaten after rigor mortis has passed.
The question Gunslinger and I both have concerning rigor mortis isnt the fact that rigor mortis has set in. It's that some of the corpses have full blown rigor mortis and some are just in the initial stages. If all these people died when the building collapsed wouldnt their various stages of rigor mortis at least be similar? Temperature affects all the corpses in that building equally does it not?
unless you where pulling them from a refrigeration truck on one side of the building then "pulling them out of the rubble" on the other and then walking up a hill for all the AP photographers to see.
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Originally posted by Elfie
The question Gunslinger and I both have concerning rigor mortis isnt the fact that rigor mortis has set in. It's that some of the corpses have full blown rigor mortis and some are just in the initial stages. If all these people died when the building collapsed wouldnt their various stages of rigor mortis at least be similar? Temperature affects all the corpses in that building equally does it not?
I don't know the answer to your question , I just can point this :
You made some assumptions :
1 - all died at the same time
2 - temperature was homogeneous
3 - the bodies reacted the same
That said I can say if it's staged or not.
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One thing I've noticed in the middle east coverage of these events: There's always camera footage of the ambulances arriving.
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I don't expect to read anything nice on Pepsi when I am looking at the Coke website.
Please use something else than local (Israeli or Hezboleze) news or blogs to make up your mind... oh wait, maybe it was already made up! :eek: