Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: SMIDSY on July 31, 2006, 08:30:06 PM
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Found this on a message board in the bowls of the internet and it brought a tear to my eye.
This is a photo of him walking to his death.
(http://troms.kulturnett.no/kunst/images/Tromso_Kunstforening/schultz450.jpg)
Jospeh Schultz was a German soldier on the Eastern Front. On the 20th of July 1941, he along with seven of his brothers in arms were sent out on what they thought to be a routine mission. After a short march they soon understood that they were on a quite different mission than what they were used to: Ahead of them, they saw fourteen captured local civilians who were blindfolded , positioned up against a wall. The 8 soldiers in Schultz platoon were halted 10-15 meters away, and an NCO ordered them to execute every one of the civilian. Seven of the soldiers took aim, and in the silence that followed you could only hear the sound of a rifle beeing dropped. Jospeh Schultz disobeyed a direct order, dropped his rifle and walked slowly towards the 14 civilians which only heard cautious footsteps in the grass infront of them. The young Schultz positioned himself together with the soon-to-be executed civilians, and choosed death instead of killing hopeless civilians. A few seconds later 14 civilians and 1 German soldier laid dead in the grass. He was executed by his own brothers in arms by order of the NCO.
There was no large-scale revolt or mutiny. Nobody was saved becasue of his actions. He didnt change anything. He refused to shoot the prisoners because he knew it was wrong, and he payed for it with his life. So the next time you have a drink, please make a toast to this man; I know I will.
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If more countries had more people like him, the world just might be a far better place. Passive protests don't have to involve a large majority to be morally right. While he may not have made a direct impact on very many people that day, the fact that we have this photo and are discussing what he did so many years later indicates that he achieved far more than dying with a clear conscience.
to anyone who has made similar sacrifices, especially those that won't every be known.
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Source?
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So...he didn't save anyone, got himself killed, and was basically forgotten.
That's heroic in a way, but it's also stupid and pointless.
J_A_B
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Not forgotten; they made a 13 minute documentary about him, generally reported to be accurate or true.
I know they won't be making any documentaries about me.
Schultz
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Originally posted by Toad
Source?
a translation from a weekend magazine of a Norwegian newspaper. also, i think i saw that documentary too.
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never heard about that before...so why didn't he just shoot the NCO?
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A true German hero from WWII, more so than all of the Gallands and Hartmanns combined. There were others as well. The White Rose, Canaris, numerous individuals who made small gestures of rebellion and saved lives.
"I die for my fatherland. I have a clear conscience. I only did my duty to my country when I tried to oppose the criminal folly of Hitler." - Admiral Wilhelm Canaris
Charon
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Originally posted by J_A_B
So...he didn't save anyone, got himself killed, and was basically forgotten.
That's heroic in a way, but it's also stupid and pointless. J_A_B
Wow. Why do you even post?
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Originally posted by J_A_B
So...he didn't save anyone, got himself killed, and was basically forgotten.
That's heroic in a way, but it's also stupid and pointless.
J_A_B
your talking privelages have been revoked.
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Originally posted by streakeagle
If more countries had more people like him, the world just might be a far better place. Passive protests don't have to involve a large majority to be morally right. While he may not have made a direct impact on very many people that day, the fact that we have this photo and are discussing what he did so many years later indicates that he achieved far more than dying with a clear conscience.
to anyone who has made similar sacrifices, especially those that won't every be known.
Like this guy? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehren_Watada)
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:aok
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that Lt. is a coward who incorrectly uses the hauge convention as a defence for not wanting to do his duty.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Like this guy? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehren_Watada)
Ya, just like him.. He was being directly ordered to shoot civilians right?
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It would have been a distinct possibility. There are countless reports of American soldiers shooting at Iraqi civilians.
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jeeze wtg tardlickers. take a decent thread and turn it into a crime scene.
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Originally posted by Yeager
jeeze wtg tardlickers. take a decent thread and turn it into a crime scene.
Agree.
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"Wow. Why do you even post?"
Yes, clearly only people who agree with the prevailing sentiments should have posting privs :rolleyes:
Or, perhaps the guy just got himself killed for no reason, and I call a spade a spade. It's a shame he didn't shoot the officer who gave the order.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by J_A_B
So...he didn't save anyone, got himself killed, and was basically forgotten.
That's heroic in a way, but it's also stupid and pointless.
J_A_B
All depends on ones religious convictions. Some religions actually frown on murdering unarmed civilians.
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There is a similar story mentioned in Simon Wiesenthal's book "The Murderers Among Us"
It refers to a German Soldier by the name of Anton Schmid a 42 year old NCO who was decided it was his Christian duty to help the Jews who were being rounded up and killed in the Wilna Ghetto. He would smuggle in food and milk for the babies. Ultimately he was caught trying to help 5 Jews get out of Wilna. He was court martialed and sentenced to death. This was in 1942.
In one of the last letters to his wife he said: "Everybody must die someday. One can die as an executioner or as a helper. I want to die as a helper."
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Originally posted by Guppy35
There is a similar story mentioned in Simon Wiesenthal's book "The Murderers Among Us"
It refers to a German Soldier by the name of Anton Schmid a 42 year old NCO who was decided it was his Christian duty to help the Jews who were being rounded up and killed in the Wilna Ghetto. He would smuggle in food and milk for the babies. Ultimately he was caught trying to help 5 Jews get out of Wilna. He was court martialed and sentenced to death. This was in 1942.
In one of the last letters to his wife he said: "Everybody must die someday. One can die as an executioner or as a helper. I want to die as a helper."
J_A_B couldn't understand this.
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I understand that the details of the case Dan posted are signifigantly different than those of Mr. Schultz as described in the initial post in this thread. In the case of Dan's example, the soldier was making a positive effort to help the Jews. In Schultz's case, he just said "I don't want to do this, shoot me", which is a waste of an individual with strong and proper convictions.
I wasn't advocating that the Schultz guy should have followed his orders and shot the civilians; nothing I said indicated that and anyone who got that idea needs to stop jumping to false conclusions.
"Nobody was saved becasue of his actions. He didnt change anything. "
That's from the first post in this thread. If you're going to give your life for a cause, you should make some effort to get something in return for that expense. A life wasted for a good cause is still a life wasted.
J_A_B
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You are wrong JAB.
What this one German soldier did was show the world not all Germans would willingly participate in mass murder. It's one of the positive aspects of the Germans of the day.
There are people who only know about the mass murders committed against the Jews. Those who think all Germans are animals and should be hated with all thier being. Those people need to know the actions of this one individual. It might just sway someone who hates all Germans into understanding there were those who did not agree with the policies of the day and were willing to give up thier life to protest it.
Just becuse you think it means nothing and he acomplished nothing does not mean he did. It just means you cannot see what he accomplished.
The mere fact we are discussing it today says he did accomplish something good.
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true, JAB, he didnt save anyone. but he set a moral example and died with a clean concience. he had a choice that was black and white: he could kill the civilians or be killed himself along side those he was to shoot, he chose the latter and i admire him for that.
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
You are wrong JAB.
What this one German soldier did was show the world not all Germans would willingly participate in mass murder. It's one of the positive aspects of the Germans of the day.
There are people who only know about the mass murders committed against the Jews. Those who think all Germans are animals and should be hated with all thier being. Those people need to know the actions of this one individual. It might just sway someone who hates all Germans into understanding there were those who did not agree with the policies of the day and were willing to give up thier life to protest it.
Just becuse you think it means nothing and he acomplished nothing does not mean he did. It just means you cannot see what he accomplished.
The mere fact we are discussing it today says he did accomplish something good.
Someone else got it. Damn fine post sir!
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"Those who think all Germans are animals and should be hated with all thier being."
The people who harbor such convictions aren't typically the sort of people who are worried about truth or real examples.
His heart was in the right place, but I think Mr. Schultz could have got a lot more for the price he paid. That's a more "PC" way of wording how I feel.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by J_A_B
"ThoHis heart was in the right place, but I think Mr. Schultz could have got a lot more for the price he paid. That's a more "PC" way of wording how I feel.
J_A_B
got a lot more what?
Killing the NCO before he got shoot?
I think Jospeh Schultz was a good Soldier, without a doubt he would
fight for his Country. Something or everything changed when he should shoot
blindfolded civilians.
He choosed the way to stay clear in front of his creator, and
not to be a Killer. From his point of view the NCO was not a murder,
maybe a good friend, just someone who finished instructions from above.
We all are children of god, but i'm sure people like him have a special
place there...
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Originally posted by J_A_B
His heart was in the right place, but I think Mr. Schultz could have got a lot more for the price he paid. That's a more "PC" way of wording how I feel.
J_A_B
what would you have him do? shoot his friends?
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Originally posted by SMIDSY
what would you have him do? shoot his friends?
J_A_B would have gone with the status quo if he were in Schultz's boots.
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well he could have just shot and missed.
the way i heard the story was he did not drop his gun and say "shoot me too' , he refused to shoot and they took away his gun and ordered him against the wall.
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"J_A_B would have gone with the status quo if he were in Schultz's boots."
Now you're just flat-out lying (I covered that previously). Is that the best you can do?
john9001: if it happened as you describe it, then it makes a bit more sense.
J_A_B