Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Wolfala on August 01, 2006, 04:06:36 PM
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From Janes Navy International 26th July
Intelligence failure led to strike on Hanit
By Alon Ben-David and Richard Scott
* INS Hanit, hit by a missile off Lebanon's coast, did not have its self-defence systems fully activated at the time of the Hizbullah attack
* The Israel Navy has acknowledged that a lack of prior intelligence caused it to underestimate the threat level off Lebanon
A preliminary Israel Navy investigation into the circumstances surrounding the missile strike suffered by the Sa'ar 5 Eilat-class missile corvette IN Hanit has acknowledged that the incident was largely the result of an intelligence failure that led to operational gaps.
Early indications are that the warhead of the Iranian-supplied Noor anti-ship cruise missile (ASCM) that hit Hanit off Lebanon on 14 July did not detonate. Even so, the missile - fired by Hizbullah forces - killed four crew and inflicted severe damage to the ship's flight deck and steering systems.
Hanit, part of a force of Israeli naval vessels enforcing a blockade on Lebanon, was hit at approximately 2015 h local time on the evening of 14 July while approximately 16 km off Beirut.
Two Noor missiles were fired from a coastal site: one struck Hanit aft while the second sank a Cambodian merchant ship 60 km off shore. The 12 crew of the latter vessel were all rescued.
On paper, the Sa'ar 5 is well equipped to defend itself against the Noor threat, being fitted with the Barak-1 point defence missile system, a Phalanx close-in weapon system, the NS-9005 multibeam jammer and the Deseaver soft-kill decoy system.
However, it appears that Hanit was caught unaware by the attack and that its self-defences were not fully activated at the time.
At such short range, the missile would have only had about a minute of flying time from crossing the coastline to striking its target. It cruises at a height of 30 m or 20 m, then descends to a final attack altitude of 7 m or 5 m. Local sunset was at 1850 so the missile made its approach in darkness. Flying under turbojet power, it offered minimal visual signature to Hanit's lookouts.
"We were not aware that Hizbullah possessed that kind of missile," admitted Rear Admiral Noam Faig, Israel Navy Head of Operations. "We are familiar with that missile from other areas, but assumed that this threat was not present in Lebanon."
The impact caused a fire in Hanit's aft section and caused substantial damage to the flight deck area, but was ultimately contained and the ship limped back to Ashdod. Its automatic fire-protection system closed up the rear section, where the four servicemen who died were trapped.
"The crew managed to put out the fire and regain some independent sailing capabilities," said Rear Adm Faig. "Hanit lost its steering and we had to tow it with another ship until the crew partially fixed the steering."
Another Israel Navy source told Jane's: "It's true that the Sa'ar 5 could easily handle radar-guided missiles, but we were just not expecting this kind of short-range threat. It's a very painful blow, but it could have been worse if they had hit another section of the ship and sunk it."
According to Major General Gadi Eisenkott, the Israel Defence Force (IDF) Chief of Operations, Hizbullah operatives received targeting information from the Lebanese Navy's radar station in Beirut. "That is why we destroyed all the radar stations along the Lebanese shore immediately after the attack," he said.
Israel has accused Iran of deploying military advisers alongside Hizbullah to enable the deployment and operation of the Noor system - a clone of the Chinese C-802/YJ-2 'Saccade' radar-guided ASCM.
"The Iranian Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps [IRGC] has maintained a constant presence in Lebanon's Baka'a Valley since the early 1980s," said a senior IDF source.
"They have been training Hizbullah and supplying them with advanced weapons. I can't determine for certain that IRGC personnel were present during the launch of the missile, but they have certainly supplied the Hizbullah with a top-end missile, providing them capabilities which many countries do not have.
"From now on we have to assume that every weapon that exists in Iran has also been supplied to Hizbullah in Lebanon," a senior IDF source told Jane's. "We are prepared for more surprises," said Maj Gen Eisenkot.
Senior IDF sources were furious that the Israel Navy had not taken into account the existence of such missiles in Lebanon.
"The air force has been flying in Lebanon as if all known threats exist there and taking all precautions," Jane's was told. "The navy should have done the same."
By any standards, the C802 is not an easy missile to deploy clandestinely. Its launch crew would require extensive training, while the minimum convoy that would make up an operational unit would be a radar/command truck, a power-generating truck and a single launch vehicle. In the original Chinese system, all three are heavy six-wheeled trucks.
The radar mounted on the roof of the radar/command truck only has a range out to the horizon, so a single battery would have needed knowledge of the approximate location of potential targets.
On 16 July, Israeli air and naval forces destroyed several Lebanese Army radar stations; Israeli press reports claimed that these had participated in the attack against Hanit.
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Data on the Chinese varient of the Iranian missile clone
CSS-N-4 'Sardine' (YJ-1/-12/-82 and C-801) and CSSC-8 'Saccade' (YJ-2/-21/-22/-83 and C-802/803)
Type
Short-range, ground-, air-, submarine- and ship-launched, solid propellant or turbojet-powered, single warhead, air-to-surface and surface-to-surface missiles.
Development
A second variant, YJ-2, completed development in 1993 (C-802A for the ground- or ship-launched export version and C-802K for the air-launched version) with the solid-propellant sustainer motor being replaced by a turbojet engine to give longer range. It is believed that this version has the NATO designator CSSC-8 'Saccade', which is a coastal defence designator. Alternate reports suggest the NATO designator is CSS-N-8 'Saccade', which is a ship-launched designator, and it is possible that an air-launched designator (CAS-8 'Saccade') was also used. YJ-2 started development in 1985 and was first tested in 1990. Small turbojet technology in China was initially developed from recovered US BQM-34 Firebee drones, but later supplemented by auxiliary power units imported for use on civil aircraft programmes. YJ-2 missiles are fitted to 'Song' and 'Han' class submarinies, 'Luhai' and 'Luhu' class destroyers, 'Jiangwei 1 and 2', 'Jianghu 3 and 4' and type 054 class frigates, fired from above deck launchers. The YJ-83 or YJ-8-3 improved YJ-2 version started development in 1992. This version has the export designator C-803. It is reported that the YJ-83 version has the capability to cruise at supersonic speed, and has an extended maximum range. This version can be ground- and ship-launched, air-launched, and the encapsulated version can be launched through standard 533 mm torpedo tubes. YJ-2 or YJ-83 missiles are expected to be fitted to the new type 093 SSN and the type 041 Yuan class submarines.YJ-2 and YJ-83 missiles are believed to have been cleared for carriage on Tu-16 'Badger' H-6M, Su-27, Su-30MKK, Q-5 and JH-7 aircraft and the CHAIC Z-8 helicopter with two missiles carried by each, although the JH-7 may be able to carry four missiles. It is believed that YJ-2 and YJ-83 missiles will be retrofitted to Chinese ships in place of YJ-1 missiles. The first 'Luhu' (Type 052) class destroyer came out of refit in 2002 with 16 cylindrical missile canisters in two octuple groups aft of the funnel, and these are believed to house YJ-83 missiles. An unconfirmed report in April 2003 indicated that an imaging IR seeker was being developed for the YJ-83 missile, to provide a land attack capability. 'Huangfen' fast attack craft, known as 'Hudong', have been exported to Iran for use with both YJ-1 and YJ-2 missiles, and it is reported that YJ-2 missiles are being built in Iran with the name 'Tondar'. Reports in 1994 indicated that an increased range YJ-2 version was also in development, designated YJ-21. A second development, YJ-22, was reported in 1997, adding wings to the YJ-21 design to increase the range to 400 km.
Description
YJ-1 is similar in appearance to the French MM 38 Exocet, but the Chinese missile is heavier. YJ-1 has four clipped delta-wings at mid-body and four small clipped-tip triangular moving control fins at the rear. The overall length including the tandem-mounted booster motor is 5.81 m for the ground- and ship-launched versions, the body diameter is 0.36 m, the wing span is 1.18 m and the launch weight 815 kg. The tandem-mounted solid-propellant boost motor weighs 160 kg and is jettisoned after use. The air-launched version does not have a tandem boost motor, having a length of 4.65 m, and a weight of 655 kg. Mid-course guidance is inertial, with a monopulse active radar (probably X-band) in the terminal phase. The cruise altitude is believed to be around 20 m, followed in the terminal phase by a descent to between 5 and 7 m, both being controlled by a radio altimeter. YJ-1 has a high explosive warhead with a weight of 165 kg. The missile flies at around M0.85. YJ-1 is reported to have a minimum range of 8 km and a maximum range of 40 km when ground- or ship-launched, and a maximum range of 50 km when air-launched from medium altitude (30,000 ft).
YJ-2 has an air inlet scoop beneath the missile body between the central wings to serve the turbojet engine that has replaced the solid-propellant sustainer motor of the earlier YJ-1 version. The engine is a Chinese-built version similar to the Microturbo TRI-60-2. The missile has a cruise speed of M0.85, the mid-course cruise can be set at either 30 or 20 m and the terminal altitude at either 7 or 5 m. Guidance in mid-course is inertial with a monopulse active radar operating at 10 to 12 GHz (X-band). YJ-2 is longer at 6.39 m for the ground- and ship-launched version, but has a reduced launch weight of 715 kg. The tandem boost motor weighs 160 kg and is jettisoned after burnout. The air-launched version, without a boost motor assembly, has a length of 5.3 m and a launch weight of 555 kg. It is reported that YJ-2 has a maximum range of 120 km when ship or ground launched and 130 km when air-launched from medium altitude (30,000 ft), and a minimum range of 15 km. The warhead remains the same as for YJ-1.
YJ-83 (or YJ-8-3) has a turbojet engine, but can cruise at supersonic speed. This missile is similar in external appearance to the YJ-2, and was seen as an interim solution until ramjet-powered missiles had been developed. However, the versatility of the YJ-1/YJ-2/YJ-83 family probably means that they will remain in use for many years. YJ-83 can be launched from submarine torpedo tubes, and is fitted inside a launch capsule, which is ejected after broaching the water. The missile can also be carried by aircraft, and launched from ships or coastal defence TEL. The ground- and ship-launched versions have a maximum range of 160 km, and the air-launched version a maximum range of 250 km. These longer ranges are achieved by inserting a subsonic high level (10 km) cruise phase, but the terminal phase can be flown at supersonic speed, reported to be between M1.3 and M1.5. This version has a datalink, which can be used to update the target co-ordinates during flight, alter the switch on timing for the active/passive terminal radar seeker, or re-allocate targets in the terminal phase. The YJ-83 can cruise at between 10 and 30 m altitude, reducing to 5 m in the terminal phase. It is believed that the first ship-launched YJ-83 missiles have been fitted to the 'Luhu' class destroyers, where they are in cylindrical canisters, and it is possible that the same canisters will be used for ground-launched TEL.
A typical YJ-1 or YJ-2 coastal defence battery has a radar-command truck, a power supply vehicle and four Transporter-Erector-Launcher (TEL) vehicles. The YJ-1 TEL vehicles carry two missiles in their canisters, and can launch against targets in a 160º sector. The YJ-2 TEL vehicles carry three missiles in their canisters, and these wheeled vehicles are converted trucks with three axles.
Specifications
YJ-2/-83 (C-802/-803)
Length: 6.39 m (ground/ship), 5.3 m (air)
Body diameter: 0.36 m
Launch weight: 715 kg (ground/ship), 555 kg (air)
Payload: Single warhead; 165 kg
Warhead: HE
Guidance: Inertial and active radar (YJ-2), inertial, command updates, active/passive radar (YJ-83)
Propulsion: Solid-propellant boost and turbojet
Range: 120 km (YJ-2 ground/ship), 130 km (YJ-2 air), 180 km (YJ-21 air), 160 km (YJ-83 ground/ship), 250 km (YJ-83 air)
Accuracy: n/k
Status
YJ-1 is in production and the ground- and ship-launched versions entered service around 1984 with the Chinese armed forces. The air-launched version is believed to have entered service in 1989. A reported purchase of YJ-1 (C-801 export version) by Thailand in 1990, for 50 missiles to arm their 'Jianghu 4' class frigates, was the first known export of YJ-1. Further exports could have been made to Iran, North Korea and Yemen for use as coastal defence weapons from fixed sites or mobile launchers. Iran has fitted YJ-1 missiles to F-4 Phantom aircraft and trials launches were made in 1997. An unconfirmed report suggests Iran is building YJ-1 (C-801A and C-801K) missiles under the project name 'Karus'. About 500 YJ-1 and YJ-82 missiles are thought to be in service in China. A modified version, known in China as YJ-12, was reported to be in development in 1996.
YJ-2 was first tested in 1990, and could have entered service with the Chinese Navy in 1994. YJ-21 may have entered service in 1998, and there were two test launches made in May and July 2001. Reports in 1995 stated that 100 YJ-2 missiles had been ordered by Iran, with test launches from ground sites reported in early 1996 and fitment to 'Hudong' fast attack craft. Up to 10 'Hudong' PCFG (Patrol Craft Fast-Guided) have been delivered to Iran, each capable of carrying four YJ-2 missiles. Later unconfirmed reports suggest that Iran may be manufacturing YJ-2 missiles under licence, with the project name 'Tondar'. Iran is known to have developed a Tolloue 4 turbojet engine, similar to the Chinese version of the Microturbo TRI-60-2 used in the C-802 missile. Pakistan ordered YJ-2 missiles in 1997 to fit to their Jalalat 2 FACs, with four missiles per boat. The first YJ-83 version (or YJ-8-3) is believed to have entered service in 1998, and was displayed in Beijing in October 1999. YJ-83 missiles were launched from JH-7 aircraft in July and November 2002, demonstrating a maximum range of 250 km. An unconfirmed report in August 2002 suggested that YJ-83 missiles would be fitted to Pakistani 'Khalid' class (Agosta 90B) submarines. In 2005 Indonesia was reported to have ordered C-802 missiles for fitting to a new FAC.
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Hezbollah sank a cambodian merchant vessle on accident? WHERE's THE OUTRAGE?
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Yea - funny how that never popped up in the news.
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Originally posted by Wolfala
Yea - funny how that never popped up in the news.
yet another thing I don't like about the media is the fact that no one has dwelled on the fact that this weapon requires specialists to use and support.
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Originally posted by Wolfala
Yea - funny how that never popped up in the news.
Exactly.....wonder when all the folks outraged by Israels actions will show up in this thread to condemn Hezbollah for sinking a neutral merchant ship from a poor 3rd world nation?
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According to Major General Gadi Eisenkott, the Israel Defence Force (IDF) Chief of Operations, Hizbullah operatives received targeting information from the Lebanese Navy's radar station in Beirut. "That is why we destroyed all the radar stations along the Lebanese shore immediately after the attack," he said.
That's the part that popped out at me.
If it can be proven, it would seem to be clear evidence of "State sponsored Terrorism".
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Nope that's hezbollah collateral damage and that's allowed. :rolleyes:
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Guys,
Arab Muslim Militias have killed literally hundreds of thousands of African Christians in Darfur - and are currently still at it ("On his recent visit to Sudan, Deputy Secretary of State Robert B. Zoellick took a step in the opposite direction. He said that the State Department's estimate of deaths in Darfur was 60,000 to 160,000, a range that dramatically understates the true scale of the killing. If Mr. Zoellick wants to galvanize action on Darfur, he must take a fresh look at the numbers." - Washington Post) The world and most importantly the world media has officially indicated it could basically care less and would we please stop reminding them about it.
However if 54 Lebanese civilians are killed by Israel in an airstrike on a building being used to launch Katyusha rockets at Israeli civilians, this is the world's greatest attrocity, and almost as bad as Mel Gibson's traffic stop.
In this kind of climate, you expect something like a Cambodian merchantman being sunk by Hezbollah to even get a mention?
I've officially given up on the news media ever making sense, basically I view it as a report on "who our editors hate most today." Basically I sense we've rolled back to the Yellow Journalism days of the late 19th century.
I sincerely apologize for sounding cynical, but I'm sick of being force-fed nothing but agenda whatever news channel I'm watching. Plus I'm dog tired, so I probably shouldn't be posting anyway...
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Hezbollah sank a cambodian merchant vessle on accident? WHERE's THE OUTRAGE?
The crew was in large part Egyptian if I recall correctly. The media echo of the tragedy is determined mostly by the identity of the killer it seems.
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Originally posted by Wolfala
Yea - funny how that never popped up in the news.
You need to find some new news sources.
It was reported here in NZ just after it happened, which was at the same time of the report on the attack on the Israeli warship.
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Originally posted by Elfie
Exactly.....wonder when all the folks outraged by Israels actions will show up in this thread to condemn Hezbollah for sinking a neutral merchant ship from a poor 3rd world nation?
It's a mistake to assume that everyone that has an opinion that is differant to yours has formed it through ignorance or bias. If anything, judging by some of the posts in this thread and others the reverse is true.
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Originally posted by Excel1
You need to find some new news sources.
It was reported here in NZ just after it happened, which was at the same time of the report on the attack on the Israeli warship.
Here too..
All you need to do is search some international news sites.
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Originally posted by Toad
If it can be proven, it would seem to be clear evidence of "State sponsored Terrorism".
So the USA is in a declared war with Lebanon?
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Here too..
All you need to do is search some international news sites.
Kinda sad how it wasnt even mentioned here in the US. This thread was the first I heard of the Cambodian ship being sunk.
I've been thinking about that incident. These were radar guided missles and as far as I know, those missles have to be locked on to a target and then fired. Which would mean Hezbollah deliberately targeted both ships in order to score hits.
The other option is if the missles can be fired and allowed to search for targets on their own. If that was the case, then these missles were fired in a very negligent manner imo.
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Originally posted by Excel1
It's a mistake to assume that everyone that has an opinion that is differant to yours has formed it through ignorance or bias. If anything, judging by some of the posts in this thread and others the reverse is true.
You're implied assumption is wrong.
While Israel has used preemptive strikes in the past, they are usually responding to attacks on them by Muslim militants.
I am biased against the Muslim militants. Why? Their stated goal is the complete destruction of Israel. They use terrorist tactics in their attempt to bend Israel to their will. They deliberately target cafes, nightclubs, busses etc with suicide bombers. They deliberately launch rockets into populated areas with the intent of killing as many civilians as possible.
When Israel does give concessions (Think Israel's withdrawal from the Gaza Strip) what do the militants do? Attack the IDF as they are leaving. They rejoice whenever they kill a Jew, civilian or military.
I am not biased against the civilians on either side. You know, those people that are just trying to live their daily lives just like you and me. I cant find words to express the sadness and horror I feel when I see pictures of the dead civilians on either side.
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Seagoon, while that is truly awful. Most people could care less if one Christian or one million Christians are murdered. Someone will probably post and declare your information to be grossly inaccurate as well.
Just the fact that thousands are being killed fills me with a sense of outrage.
That whole situation would only be news worthy if it was reversed. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Elfie
Kinda sad how it wasnt even mentioned here in the US. This thread was the first I heard of the Cambodian ship being sunk.
I've been thinking about that incident. These were radar guided missles and as far as I know, those missles have to be locked on to a target and then fired. Which would mean Hezbollah deliberately targeted both ships in order to score hits.
The other option is if the missles can be fired and allowed to search for targets on their own. If that was the case, then these missles were fired in a very negligent manner imo.
Not sure what equipment they use to fire their missiles. If they had 2 bleeps on the radar they ___could___ have selected the wrong one when they locked on if the reflective sizes were similar.
Somehow i doubt they could have used radar to find their targets without the israeli ship picking up that radar on their ESM gear. Maybe they activated the radar on the missile and fired it "blind" in the general direction of the warship on the horizon and the missiles search radar locked on to the wrong one. I have no idea how the radar on that iranian missiles works.
They could also have deliberatly targeted both, or fired a second missile at the israeli ship after they foun out that they had hit the wrong target. If im not mistaken the civilian ship was the first to be hit. There are indications that it was Iranian soliders that fired the missiles, and they have no beef with cambodians do they?
There are many possible scenarios.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Not sure what equipment they use to fire their missiles. If they had 2 bleeps on the radar they ___could___ have selected the wrong one when they locked on if the reflective sizes were similar.
Somehow i doubt they could have used radar to find their targets without the israeli ship picking up that radar on their ESM gear. Maybe they activated the radar on the missile and fired it "blind" in the general direction of the warship on the horizon and the missiles search radar locked on to the wrong one. I have no idea how the radar on that iranian missiles works.
They could also have deliberatly targeted both, or fired a second missile at the israeli ship after they foun out that they had hit the wrong target. If im not mistaken the civilian ship was the first to be hit. There are indications that it was Iranian soliders that fired the missiles, and they have no beef with cambodians do they?
There are many possible scenarios.
There are many ways they can be launched - but seeing as the Corvette was within visual range of the shore being 13km off the coast, odds are it was struck first.
A lot of times you don't need an exact location. As you pointed out, if you get 2 or 3 radar sweeps of the ocean, you can just work off a primary return and you can work up a usable plot for where to send the missiles in a dumbfire mode to go active later down the line. Sorta what the AIM-54 and AMRAAM did with an INS to a predetermined point and then go hot looking for something looking like a target.
There's ten thousand ways it could've gone down, but seeing all of the dumbfire rockets landing inside Israeli territory now, I don't think they were aiming for accuracy as much as just hit anything and hope its the right target.
Remembering the lessons from Gulf War 1 and Kosovo, if you turned on yr radar for anytime, you became a HARM magnet. So I think they just caught a visual of the Corvette, launched in a spray and pray - got 1 hit, and 1 innocent way the hell out to sea.
Wolf
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Originally posted by Wolfala
Remembering the lessons from Gulf War 1 and Kosovo, if you turned on yr radar for anytime, you became a HARM magnet. So I think they just caught a visual of the Corvette, launched in a spray and pray - got 1 hit, and 1 innocent way the hell out to sea.
Wolf
yup.
If they set the radar to activate at a sertain range and fired the missile in that direction the corvette could have been too close so that the missile activated beyond the corvette and hit the closest ship after activation. They then recalculated and fired again causing it to hit. They could have set the heading of the missile wrong too.
The data on this incident and the specs on how that iranian missile works are too few to rule out a number of different options. They could have even deliberatly targeted the merchant vessel beliving it was an israeli ship.
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Interesting points, thanks guys. I agree, the possibilities are numerous. I would like to know how it went down, but kinda doubt we will ever find out.
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Originally posted by Wolfala
Yea - funny how that never popped up in the news.
Use a real news service.
It's easy to have Reuter and AFP feed for free.
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Originally posted by Elfie
Interesting points, thanks guys. I agree, the possibilities are numerous. I would like to know how it went down, but kinda doubt we will ever find out.
If it was Iranian soldiers that fired the missiles, they will never admit that it was them so they wont tell the world what happened. If it was Hezbollah then what they may eventually say about it will have to be taken with a "grain" of salt so Im afraid you are right.
Even if someone has tracked the missiles they will not now the intentions of those who fired it.
I doubt that they intetionally targeted the cambodian vessel tho if they knew it was cambodian. That would not even make sense for a terrorist to do. Nothing to gain and not a good PR stunt even for their supporters.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
I doubt that they intetionally targeted the cambodian vessel tho if they knew it was cambodian. That would not even make sense for a terrorist to do. Nothing to gain and not a good PR stunt even for their supporters.
apparently even terrorists have collateral damage.
The ship was tracked by Lebanon army coastal radars. IDF policy not to attack Lebanon army is the reason these radars were operational. After the corvet was hit IAF attacked the coastal radars in one of the only attacks on Lebanon army installations.
The hits on the radars are halfway through the film:
http://www1.idf.il/SIP_STORAGE/DOVER/files/6/54486.wmv
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Originally posted by bozon
apparently even terrorists have collateral damage.
The ship was tracked by Lebanon army coastal radars. IDF policy not to attack Lebanon army is the reason these radars were operational. After the corvet was hit IAF attacked the coastal radars in one of the only attacks on Lebanon army installations.
The hits on the radars are halfway through the film:
http://www1.idf.il/SIP_STORAGE/DOVER/files/6/54486.wmv
yup.. Israeli cities and military are thier targets, so a ship from Cambodia would be collateral damage.
Ill check the link when I get home. The speed on my "holiday line" is crappy. :)
Are you army, navy or airforce?
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Originally posted by Elfie
You're implied assumption is wrong.
While Israel has used preemptive strikes in the past, they are usually responding to attacks on them by Muslim militants.
I am biased against the Muslim militants. Why? Their stated goal is the complete destruction of Israel. They use terrorist tactics in their attempt to bend Israel to their will. They deliberately target cafes, nightclubs, busses etc with suicide bombers. They deliberately launch rockets into populated areas with the intent of killing as many civilians as possible.
When Israel does give concessions (Think Israel's withdrawal from the Gaza Strip) what do the militants do? Attack the IDF as they are leaving. They rejoice whenever they kill a Jew, civilian or military.
I am not biased against the civilians on either side. You know, those people that are just trying to live their daily lives just like you and me. I cant find words to express the sadness and horror I feel when I see pictures of the dead civilians on either side.
I'm biased against muslim terrorists as well, who wouldn't be? They're are mad headed sobs that imo should be rounded up and dropped in the nearest black hole. If only it were that easy. You misunderstand me if you think I'm suggesting that to display support for Israel in this situation is wrong, far from it, anything but. I support Israel and have done ever since I was a kid when I figured out what the 6 day war was all about. But that does not mean I am going to agree with every method or action the IDF take. Because I don't. Imo the IDF's initial assault on hizbolloh in southern Lebanon was too harsh on civilians. Unfortunately this fight in Lebanon probably won't solve the worst of Israel's problems with it's neighbours, it's just another chapter in a saga lasting decades. Things need to be kept in context
Cheers
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I dont necessarily agree with everything Israel has done either. Israel is run by humans, and every human makes mistakes, I understand that. I do try to look at the whole picture and usually you can see their motivations for their actions and the vast majority of the time I can understand the *why* behind those actions.
When it comes to civilian casualties, I try to put that into perspective. During WWII millions of civilians died during that conflict. Today, civilian casualties are much lower during many conflicts. We've come a long way in reducing collateral damage, but still have a ways to go yet. I also believe Israel did what it could to minimize civilian casualties while still taking out their enemies.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Are you army, navy or airforce?
Air force officer and no, not a pilot. Lets say I'm on the "control" side of things.