Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Mako15 on August 03, 2006, 01:46:11 PM
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Hey guys <
>...I've developed a liking for the ki-61, and I was wondering if you could give me some tips?
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Turn it. It's no speed demon.
Just because the cannon are in the nose, don't fire them outside of "kill range".
After the 20mm are gone you can still finish a kill off with the 2x 50cals.
DTs are nice but it's got pretty nice internal tankage as well.
Check the speed chart. It does not do well over 15k. Do not take it over 12k (ideally).
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Originally posted by Mako15
Hey guys <>...I've developed a liking for the ki-61, and I was wondering if you could give me some tips?
The Tony is a great plane, but it often takes some practice to feel out its best envelope. In combat, keep its speed in the 200s (which is a pretty wide range, when you think about it). You can exceed this when you dive after someone - people usually don't expect a Japanese plane to be able to do that. Do not make the mistake of trying to outclimb people, or perform verticle moves in the UP direction, against most other types; the Tony doesn't climb well. Go down instead. When you get slow you can use flaps; my best luck has always been to pump them, rather than leaving them down as you would with a Frank. The plane has very good guns (don't waste the ammo, though), gets excellent mileage from a tank of gas, and sports the famous Pulsing Clown Tail (the default paint job), which proclaims to others that you seek, not avoid, mortal combat.
- oldman
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Originally posted by Mako15
Hey guys <>...I've developed a liking for the ki-61, and I was wondering if you could give me some tips?
Adding to what others have stated..
Never attempt to stall-fight in the Ki-61. Despite popular myth, it displays terrible handling at low speeds with or without flaps out.
Some may disagree, but there's always my standing invitation to come to the TA any weeknight and give it try. There's no better place to explore a plane's limits than in the TA. You don't have to re-plane if you make an error. Remember, every aircraft changed to some degree with the revised drag model, so some rides people think they knew probably perform differently now.
As oldman says, keep in the 200s and avoid following better climbers in prolonged climbs. A Ki-61 with some altitude (and potential E) is very dangerous. A low and slow Ki-61 is usually very dead. Exceptional pilots can get away with this to a limited degree. The average guy will not.
My regards,
Widewing
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Use the shift-f combo to drain the wing fuel tanks; it makes the plane perform better in every right.
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Which Japanese plane company made the Ki-61? I want to find it in my book.
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Kawasaki
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Widewing is correct,
All I have is my subjective view...but after almost 6 years of AH changes of this magnitude are very easy to notice. Right or wrong KI-61 suffered terribly in the flight model chance which came with AH2. It was a totally different plane in AH1..not overly great by any standard but the difference is still strickingly obvious.
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ki61 is a roller coaster. climb to 10 12k fight downhill when you get to the bottom extend to saftey and climb back up. drain your wind tanks first. get real close and use short burst cannon rate of fire is very fast. one short burst at close range will kill anything short of a buff. it dives well and has good speed untill you get to the bottom of the hill. if you havent caught that runner by then break off. change the paint from default helps dull the bullzeye this thing carrys. one of my favorite perk farmers.
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As stated above, fight this pupy downhill. Unlike most other Japanese planes DO NOT STALLFIGHT WITH THIS PLANE!!! If you are transitioning from German Iron, the best analog would be the 109G-6. Try to maintain an E advantage, any hint that you are loosing that advantage extend away and return when you have built up the advantage again.
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I guess it's all in the preference. I ONLY stallfight with this plane. I also make sure the wing fuel tanks are empty.
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Originally posted by OOZ662
I guess it's all in the preference. I ONLY stallfight with this plane. I also make sure the wing fuel tanks are empty.
The Ki-61 can not stallfight efectively. I have killed more Ki-61's that tried to stallfight than I care to name. The Ki-61 came about with German technology transfer IMHO. Japanease enginers got ahold of 109 plans and made their own modifications, and adapted the design to suit their purposes. You will note that it is the only Japanese fighter to mount an inline engine. The wing loading is to high for it to be an efective stallfighter. The Ki-61 is an E fighter PERIOD.
Try geting into a horizontal scissors fight on the deck with a 109-F, you will get your arse handed to you on a silver platter.
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Well, duh. That's like saying if you're flying a spit14 you should go turnfight with a Zero.
What I'm saying is, if you're not up against a purebred turnfighter, the Ki-61 can hold its own.
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Ki-61s make good fodder for the P-38. I know I've got an easy kill if a Tony pilot tries to stall fight or turn with me below 200mph IAS and as for the dive...its easy to escape from. The most recommended tactic of the USAAF in the PTO was to dive to the right because the Tony couldn't turn right at high speeds due to the torque. Same tactic works in here.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by OOZ662
What I'm saying is, if you're not up against a purebred turnfighter, the Ki-61 can hold its own.
Not if the fight gets slow... Our Ki-61 is one of the worst low-speed dogfighters in the game. It's completely unstable with flaps out at moderate angles of attack.
No other fighter, save the 190s, requires greater attention to managing E. It's turn radius is in the lower 1/3 of the plane set (that means it's worse than average) and its turn rate is in the lower 15% (that's not good either). Inasmuch as the Ki-61 has exceptionally poor acceleration, and below par climb, it is a sitting duck if E is not carefully managed.
Now, keep it fast and it is quite lethal.... The problem is that once you run out of altitude, keeping it fast is impossible.
You have to know the Ki-61's weaknesses to be successful flying it. Either that, or hope the enemy is completely incompetent.
My regards,
Widewing
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i despise the ki61 "tony" on aotp, i still do here on ahII
which reminds me, wut do ya'll think of the ki45 "nick" from wut i remember it was a long range escort fighter for bomber and served in the ground attack role, also, it was packin,i think it was like 2x20mm and 1 or 2 30mm cannons, and it had the secuirity of being a twin engine fighter.
also, when i went back to aotp to look at tony, i saw a plane they made me fly for the jaaf in the beginning, that god forsaken ki27 "nate" good lord i hat that more than tony as if these planes weren't slow already, i think the family minivan couldout run it, top speed was like 200mph in a dive and was packin a whopping 2x7.7mm gunz:lol surprised i survived thef first tod.
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Originally posted by Iron_Cross
The Ki-61 can not stallfight efectively. I have killed more Ki-61's that tried to stallfight than I care to name. The Ki-61 came about with German technology transfer IMHO. Japanease enginers got ahold of 109 plans and made their own modifications, and adapted the design to suit their purposes. You will note that it is the only Japanese fighter to mount an inline engine. The wing loading is to high for it to be an efective stallfighter. The Ki-61 is an E fighter PERIOD.
Try geting into a horizontal scissors fight on the deck with a 109-F, you will get your arse handed to you on a silver platter.
I disagree with this, and agree with OOZ. I've never had an issue with the Tony, in a turnfight, stallfight, etc. The tony holds E almost on an La7 level. I'll also use common sense when stallfighting in this, I don't do it with 5 cons around, I do it 1 on 1. This plane is not deserving of the "40" ENY tag, but what the hell, I'll farm the perks with it. I almost always get to within 200 of the con before pulling the trigger, the Tony makes it known.
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Originally posted by Iron_Cross
The Ki-61 came about with German technology transfer IMHO. Japanease enginers got ahold of 109 plans and made their own modifications, and adapted the design to suit their purposes. You will note that it is the only Japanese fighter to mount an inline engine.
This is incorrect. The engine is based on the German transfer, but the Ki-61 other than the engine is a completely Japanese design and not based on the Bf109 at all. The Japanese engineer who designed it was an advocate of liquid cooled engines. His name escapes me at the moment.
He did adapt the Ki-61-II airframe to take a radial engine in a very short time, resulting in the Ki-100. Apparently he felt he was butchering his design though.
The D4Y1 and D4Y2 dive bombers also had a liquid coold DB based engine, but switched to a radial in the D4Y3 and D4Y4 versions.
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Originally posted by Karnak
This is incorrect. The engine is based on the German transfer, but the Ki-61 other than the engine is a completely Japanese design and not based on the Bf109 at all. The Japanese engineer who designed it was an advocate of liquid cooled engines. His name escapes me at the moment.
He did adapt the Ki-61-II airframe to take a radial engine in a very short time, resulting in the Ki-100. Apparently he felt he was butchering his design though.
The D4Y1 and D4Y2 dive bombers also had a liquid coold DB based engine, but switched to a radial in the D4Y3 and D4Y4 versions.
Takeo Doi or Shin Owada? I believe it was Takeo, that you are thinking of Karnak.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Takeo Doi or Shin Owada? I believe it was Takeo, that you are thinking of Karnak.
I'd need my books to be sure. Besides the big British and German names (Geoffrey De Haviland, Reginald Mitchell, Sidney Camm, Wily Messerschmitt, Kurt Tank) I only know Jiro Horikoshi (A6M, J2M, A7M) and Joe Smith (Spitfire development after Mitchell's death) without needing to look them up in books.
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The Ki-61 is average or below average at everything. But it's still lots of fun. Carries a reasonable bomb load.
It does have pretty good views.
You don't want to dive at high speed. It sheds parts and augers well!
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Originally posted by Karnak
This is incorrect. The engine is based on the German transfer, but the Ki-61 other than the engine is a completely Japanese design and not based on the Bf109 at all. The Japanese engineer who designed it was an advocate of liquid cooled engines. His name escapes me at the moment.
He did adapt the Ki-61-II airframe to take a radial engine in a very short time, resulting in the Ki-100. Apparently he felt he was butchering his design though.
The D4Y1 and D4Y2 dive bombers also had a liquid coold DB based engine, but switched to a radial in the D4Y3 and D4Y4 versions.
When the Tony was first encountered by USAAF pilots they at first reported the Tony as a bf109E or a c.205.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
When the Tony was first encountered by USAAF pilots they at first reported the Tony as a bf109E or a c.205.
ack-ack
Not to be a technical dweeb, but I thought a 202. Either way, yeah, this one caught them by surprise, but were easy kills for the USN.
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Originally posted by MOSQ
The Ki-61 is average or below average at everything. But it's still lots of fun. Carries a reasonable bomb load.
It does have pretty good views.
You don't want to dive at high speed. It sheds parts and augers well!
MOSQ I've had this thing in a dive at 500+ and haven't had the "Mosquito Flap rip" happen. IMO, it handles E just as good as a pony or La when it gets cooking.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
When the Tony was first encountered by USAAF pilots they at first reported the Tony as a bf109E or a c.205.
ack-ack
Yes, but that was an error. The myth persists to this day as evidenced in this thread.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
MOSQ I've had this thing in a dive at 500+ and haven't had the "Mosquito Flap rip" happen. IMO, it handles E just as good as a pony or La when it gets cooking.
maybe the ki84 is what your thinking it sheds its elevators in a dive. i cant recall ever losing anything off a ki61 in a dive. infact of all the japanese planes the ki61 it by far the best diver
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Originally posted by icemaw
maybe the ki84 is what your thinking it sheds its elevators in a dive. i cant recall ever losing anything off a ki61 in a dive. infact of all the japanese planes the ki61 it by far the best diver
me 2nd.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
me 2nd.
Agreed.
- oldman
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Ok since this was first brought up I've flown the ki in multiple FT and TT engagements....and while I'm no expert, I do agree that it dives well, and given the right circustances, has the capablility to shred most of the planes in the game....I had 10 air to air kills in one sortie a week ago....was unable to rtb with them because of slight augering problem (mossie made me dodge into the ground...dam those things are fast!)
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Ki61 is one of THE best planes for cutting into a spitty's turn circle and getting a nasty burst right into him because you have amazing "under the nose" shot capability -- just bank a little and you have unlimited view under the nose.
Hard to explain, but if you're turning chances are you're at 45 degrees or so and you can see when the other tight-turning planes are in the right spot to squeaze the trigger.
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Fly it like a p51
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Nah, fly it like a c202, but a c202 with CANNON!
It turns better than a p51, it's in a totally different speed bracket as well. I'd fly it like a spit, almost. Just keep in mind it doesn't have UFO-Power (TM) like the spitties do.
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They developed the Ki-61 from their own plans, coupling it with the Daimler Benz engine.
It was misidentified by a "few" Allied pilots early on as a Bf 109, but that was quickly kyboshed by intel.
The Ki-61 was regarded as one of the tougher opponents by the USN, and the USAAF, as it was both faster than the Zero, but could also dive at high speeds. It suffered from mechanical and supply difficulties in New Guinea, and not as many were encountered as could have been the case. Claims of it being cannon fodder is without basis. It was a respected enemy fighter.
Never heard anything about it not being able to roll or turn to the right because of torque, it had a better roll rate than a Zero did at high speeds, and pre P-38Ls did not have high speed roll rates either. I beleive the recomendation was an aileron roll at 300-400 TAS+ vs Japanese fighters generally, since many of them had heavy ailerons at higher speeds, and that wasnt just a tactic for P-38s.
Im not sure what version of AH you guys have, but I think it dives awesome in the game, and holds E very well.
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This what McGuire wrote about the Ki-61.
Tony - The usual armament of this plane is two 12.7 mm. machine guns, synchronized through the prop with one 12.7 mm. machine gun in each wing. (Later models have one 20 mm in each wing). With heavier armor and a fair quality of self-sealing tanks, this plane does not have the tendency of the OSCAR and ZEKE models to explode or burn unless a very good hit is scored. An in-line fighter like our P-40’s, the TONY is not an altitude fighter but makes up for this by being faster than the ZEKE in level flight and extremely fast in a dive. A successful evasive tactic against this plane is, if in a dive, to make a diving turn to the right. At high speeds the TONY handles very poorly to the right and the Japanese pilot has trouble turning in that direction. If you are pursued from the rear and on the level, a very high-speed, shallow climb will keep you out of range and eventually you will draw way.
One pilot found out about this the hard way. He was returning from a strike at Wewak when he was jumped by three TONYS. He was at 20,000 feet at the time and went into a shallow dive which ended up on the deck one hundred miles farther south, with the TONYS right behind him. Forced to alter his tactics, the pilot began a high-speed, shallow climb and soon lost them. His was the original experience of this sort with the TONY and his pioneerings saved many from falling into the same error.
If you are on the deck, a very sharp turn to the right at high-speed, may do as an emergency maneuver, but it is definitely a last resort and at best will only keep the enemy pilot from holding his lead on you.
As for the cannon fodder remark, that has been my experience when running into the Ki-61 vs. P-38. It just has too many weaknesses for me to exploit and is one of the easier rides to fight against but that's just my opinion from my experience in fighting against the Tony...YMMV.
ack-ack
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Flying the Ki61 is like flying the C202, or flying the 109E (not counting the similar engines). You know you're outclassed by many planes that you WILL encounter. There's a good chance that your meager strengths will be overshadowed by your towering weaknesses. It makes it more interesting (at times) to try outflying the better planes.
Of course, this means if you meet a semi-decent pilot in any better ride, you're toast.
Good news is that "semi-decent pilot" and "MA" don't go together too often!
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If the Ki-61 suffered as badly in the newer versions as some indicate, it must be a pretty poor performer these days. Even when I still subscribed to AH, I considered the Ki-61 a close match for a P-40E and distinctly inferior to something like the F4U-1. The P-38G should also be superior in most aspects to the Tony.
If you're flying it in the MA--then or now--it's best to have a sense of humor and accept that nearly everyone will be flying a better plane than you are. By MA standards, it's slow, climbs poorly, and doesn't turn that well. The longer a fight lasts, the more likely you'll lose--try to kill your target sooner, rather than later.
It can perform quite well when matched up against its historical adversaries; at least, it's better than the Zeke.
The Ki-45 "Nick" had similar performance to the Me-110C.
J_A_B
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Certainly could have been that if you pushed it to the limit in a right hand diving turn, that the Ki-61 would be left behind eventually. As with most comments from aces they are part genuine and part the quagmire of "anectdotal evidence". Certainly almost all the comments from the P-38 pilots seems to indicate it was the hardest type to shake off from a determined pursuer, when comparing it to the Ki-43 or Zero.
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Actually, McGuire's write up is part of his Combat Tactics in the Southwest Pacific Area (http://rhinobytes.com/haze/mcguire.htm) manual that was given to all new members of the 475th FG. The excerpt about the Tony was not "anectdotal evidence", it was taken from pilot debriefings and from flight testing captured Japanese planes.
ack-ack
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All thats fine, but I point out the volume of aces comments and veteran pilots comments that disagree with each other. Pilot X saying Y is not irrefutable FM data. Look at the threads that go on forever on the BB. That was my point. Not saying that Mcguires comments were not probably close to the mark, but they are vague, offering no exact speeds or even what model of P-38 he's reffering too.