Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Chairboy on August 03, 2006, 08:06:52 PM
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Hi! Can anyone point me towards an organization similar to the Cub Scouts that doesn't have the same religious requirements? Googling it brings me page after page of folks complaining about the Boy/Cub scouts and their stance on the matter, but not a lot of matches for alternatives.
Figured it might be worth tapping the collective here, ifncase anyone here has stumbled across something...
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Yea,
The Brownies
What religeous requirements are there for the boy scouts??
Or are you talking about the oath?
I was a boy scout and I dont remember any particular emphasis being placed on religeon other then in the oath. Or of you were going for the merit badge
They did however throw me out.
I got caught eating the Brownies :D
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The Spiral Scouts (http://paganwiccan.about.com/library/weekly/aa111402spiralscouts.htm)
;)
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Two things, the Boy Scouts of America explicitly forbid atheists from being scouts, and second, even if they "didn't make an issue out of it", my son would be swearing an oath to god, and I don't want my kid thinking that oaths don't mean anything. If he swears to something he doesn't believe, it's a poor life lesson.
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They're not entirely like the Cub Scouts, but programs like the Young Marines do many similar things (camp, etc). Your local fire or police department may also have an "explorer" program that, if it's an active one, do lots of those types of things too (of course with the relevant spin, either Marine, police, or firefighter).
Don't rule out the Cub Scouts if you haven't checked out your local pack/den though. They vary widely. There was no religious spin to my weekly den meetings because my dad ran them and concentrated on activities and learning, not the official scout teachings. We rarely cracked open our handbooks, since we were spending most of our time in the workshop building stuff or in the backyard doing something. Once a month we'd have pack meetings with all the dens from my elementary school, and I don't remember any spin to those, either. The only place where there were any religious references were in the handbook and at places run by the Scouts such as the scout summer camp. Even those were as minor as saying a group prayer before dinner, and we were usually screwing around through that anyhow. :)
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Originally posted by Toad
The Spiral Scouts (http://paganwiccan.about.com/library/weekly/aa111402spiralscouts.htm)
;)
Well:
Pagan beliefs, mythology and attitudes are a large part of the program.
That sounds pretty religious to me. I'm not looking to enroll him in some sort of hippy goddess group, just something that offers the same solid character and skill building that the scouts do, without the god stuff.
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Tarmac,
Thanks for the post! I'll check out those other groups you mentioned. I'm not really worried that they'll try to convert him or anything, but I don't want my son learning that it's ok to pledge falsely. If you pledge an oath to god but don't believe in god, that's not right.
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I understand what you're thinking, and I've had similar thoughts about what I'll do when I have kids. Scouts was invaluable to me and I want my kids to get those types of experiences. I have no problem with the religious part as I plan to raise my kids as Christians, but I do have a problem with the exclusion of others because of different beliefs.
I'm not sure, but it seems like there are probably lots of atheists/agnostics/whatevers that have gone through this before and they must have some sort of advice on this. Even a bunch of like-minded parents that could form an "activity group" and plan scoutlike outings.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Tarmac,
Thanks for the post! I'll check out those other groups you mentioned. I'm not really worried that they'll try to convert him or anything, but I don't want my son learning that it's ok to pledge falsely. If you pledge an oath to god but don't believe in god, that's not right.
camp fire kids? http://www.campfireusa.org/
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Cool, gunslinger. Good find. Figured there had to be something.
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Young Pioneers
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Awesome find on the Camp Fire, checking it out now.
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Check out their candy sampler. Yummeh!
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I went through 4 years of Scouts missed the BB guns at the camp by 1 year though. Damn. Look how I turned out, perfectly fine....
Anyway, you could take him up to cabins with a few of his buddies every so often, go fishing, camping whatever, heck have a few of their dad's/mom's come along to help too (yes my den leader was a lady). The only really good thing i got out of scouts was time with my dad. I'm sure others got a lot more, but that was the big thing for me.
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Outward Bound is a non-profit educational organization with five core programs that change lives, build teams, and transform schools. We deliver adventure in the wilderness, urban settings, workrooms, and classrooms to help students achieve their possibilities, and to inspire them to serve others and care for the world around them.
^^If that is of interest check out the link:
Outward Bound (http://www.outwardbound.org/)
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Outward Bound looks pretty cool, but while I can't find any specifics, it seems to be targeted at older kids, like in their teens. I may be mistaken.
Good read, though, until now I assumed OB was for kids in trouble.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
it seems to be targeted at older kids, like in their teens.
looks like it starts at age 12...see link below
here (http://www.outwardboundwilderness.org/age/youth.html)
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Ah, roger that. Well, still a ways out for my oldest who is 4.
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Avoiding the Scouts because of that?
Wow.
:huh
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Originally posted by LePaul
Avoiding the Scouts because of that?
Wow.
:huh
Maybe you didn't read my post.
1. Atheists are specifically not allowed to join the Boy Scouts or Cub Scouts.
2. If he DID join, I'd be teaching him that oaths don't matter (because he would be pledging allegiance to a god he didn't believe in).
What's your problem?
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I looked and re-looked...I didnt see where you specifically said you were athiests
Maybe I missed it.
Oh and I dont have a "problem"...do you?
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Originally posted by LePaul
I looked and re-looked...I didnt see where you specifically said you were athiests
Maybe I missed it.
Oh and I dont have a "problem"...do you?
Message 4, I said I didn't want him swearing to god, which he didn't believe in.
And no, I didn't have a problem until you rolled out your condescending "Avoiding the scouts for THAT? Wow." Then I did. Drop it, I'm just looking for something for my kid.
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2- Threads should remain on topic, do not "hijack" topics.
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2- Threads should remain on topic, do not "hijack" topics.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
2- Threads should remain on topic, do not "hijack" topics.
I can't see anything wrong with just not saying "under god", as that is a pledge to the flag/nation that _mentions_ god, while the boy scout oath is a pledge _to_ god.
Do you understand the difference?
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You could move to Canada.
http://www.robertscheer.com/2_localla/00_columns/070900.htm
"The Canadian Boy Scouts entertain no such exclusionary policies and have even encouraged gay scouts to march as a group at gay pride functions."
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Good for you, Chairboy. Don't compromise your beliefs, and don't teach your children to either. :)
My stepsister was in Camp Fire, and they seemed to have a good time. Hopefully, it will be a good thing for your children.
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Chairboy,
While it disappoints me that your kids might not enjoy the scouts because of your convictions I do admire that you arent comprimising because of your convictions.
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I'm curious chairboy... is this avowed athiesm yours or is it also your childs?
In other words... is the decision against the boy scouts yours or his and... if it is his... what is he basing it on?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
I'm curious chairboy... is this avowed athiesm yours or is it also your childs?
In other words... is the decision against the boy scouts yours or his and... if it is his... what is he basing it on?
lazs
A fine question. Like religious families, we're teaching him what we believe. When he's older, he can make his own choices, but our household is god free until then. Zero difference whatsoever from how, say, christian families raise their kids, I do hope it won't be suggested that a different standard applies to atheists?
Finally, it's not so much his decision against the Boy Scouts as it is my decision against putting him in a situation where he swears falsely. I'm raising my kids with more character than that.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Hi! Can anyone point me towards an organization similar to the Cub Scouts that doesn't have the same religious requirements? Googling it brings me page after page of folks complaining about the Boy/Cub scouts and their stance on the matter, but not a lot of matches for alternatives.
Figured it might be worth tapping the collective here, ifncase anyone here has stumbled across something...
Try any of the martial arts. Kendo, Kyudo, or tai chi. All build character, and one of them care what your religion is.
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chair... excellent answer...
As I have told you in other threads... there is "zero difference" between the way theists raise their children and the way the athiests raise their children... both impart their religion on to their kids.
there is one slight difference however... most religious families will let their kids go to non religious based events or organizations... your religion seems a little paranoid and strict.
lazs
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Lazs, the Boy Scouts specifically prohibit atheists from joining. It's simply not allowed. Nothing about paranoia.
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Originally posted by Red Tail 444
Try any of the martial arts. Kendo, Kyudo, or tai chi. All build character, and one of them care what your religion is.
Found a decent looking place in OR. (http://www.oregonmartialarts.com/)
I prefer Jiu-Jitsu (there's no substitute for ground skills), but a 4 y/o may be alittle young for that. They do have Enshin Karate classes for 4-6 y/o's though.
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chair... my point exactly. I raised my kids to believe in a god but I let them seek out different views on their own. even at very young ages... I would not do what you are doing to them and tell such a young and forming child that your religion was the only one.
I would raise my kids to make up their own mind. I think your fear is paranoia.... I was raised catholic. went to catholic school... I am not one now.
Kids do listen to their parents... if you allow your child to be an agnostic... he can see it all. Let him come back to you and ask questions. If you make sense he will see it.. if you don't... well. He is a human being.. let him make his own mistakes so far as religion go and remember....
nothing is permanent... not the boy scouts brainwashing or yours.
I would not want to be you when he grew up and realized what you have done to him tho.
lazs
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guess I am saying... would you forbid them from going to different churches with their friends? would you deprive them of seeing how these things work?
My kids pretty much went to a lot of churches with their friends and....
In the end.. they decided that organized religion was pretty much a scam. That does not mean that they decided god was a scam...
lazs
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Lazs: You're not listening.
THE.
BOY.
SCOUTS.
DO.
NOT.
ALLOW.
ATHEISTS.
AND.
AGNOSTICS.
TO.
JOIN.
They kick them out.
This is not "Chairboy pushing an agenda", this is just facts.
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Chair,
The Cub Scouts and the Boy Scouts are a private organization. Membership, as we all can agree, is purely voluntary. Find a viable alternative for your child if you wish...and good luck to you.
One of the things about the modern "Scout" controversy that gives me the most chuckles is that some of our activist groups and parent organizations have been suddenly shocked, SHOCKED mind you, to discover that they are a (shudder) "religious" group.
As if the Scouts attempted to keep the fact a secret for the last century.
I was in the Cub Scouts for a couple of years as a child. The only thing I can remember clearly about it is the kool-aid and cookies, arts and crafts, and the nifty little uniform.
There were no secret religious rites with animal sacrifices performed while reciting the Protocols of the Elders of Zion by the light of the full moon.
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Originally posted by lazs2
chair... excellent answer...
As I have told you in other threads... there is "zero difference" between the way theists raise their children and the way the athiests raise their children... both impart their religion on to their kids.
there is one slight difference however... most religious families will let their kids go to non religious based events or organizations... your religion seems a little paranoid and strict.
lazs
I agree with you that atheism is a religion (in contrast to agnosticism) and atheists are "pushing" their religion on their children just like followers of any other faith, but at the same time I think that the "push" is highly individual and covers the entire spectrum. Some people simply show their kids "the way", but let them make their own choices later. Others kill their children if they stray from their "faith".
What Chairboy is doing is perfectly reasonable. His kid is incapable of making choices so Charboy has to make them for him. It is only natural. As a parent Charboy is untimately responsible for his kids' upbringing. The key is to let go, when the kids are capable of making their own choices.
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Shuckins,
I know, I'm not trying to shoehorn my way into the scouts, just looking for an alternative for my kids.
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Originally posted by mietla
As a parent Charboy is untimately responsible for his kids' upbringing. The key is to let go, when the kids are capable of making their own choices.
Agreed 100%, and I will.
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2- Threads should remain on topic, do not "hijack" topics.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Lazs: You're not listening.
THE.
BOY.
SCOUTS.
DO.
NOT.
ALLOW.
ATHEISTS.
AND.
AGNOSTICS.
TO.
JOIN.
They kick them out.
This is not "Chairboy pushing an agenda", this is just facts.
Wel yeah, but...
YOU have decided that he is atheist, so indirectly YOU have decided that he can't join Boy Scouts.
You have every right to do that, but do not whine that your kid can't join Boy Scouts. Find another organization, which is exactly what you are doing.
I see no problem for anyone. Win Win.
Had you been an agnostic, there would be no issue at all.
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Originally posted by mietla
Wel yeah, but...
YOU have decided that he is atheist, so indirectly YOU have decided that he can't join Boy Scouts.
You have every right to do that, but do not whine that your kid can't join Boy Scouts. Find another organization, which is exactly what you are doing.
I see no problem for anyone. Win Win.
Had you been an agnostic, there would be no issue at all.
1. I'm not whining, I'm just asking for an alternative for my kid. You're putting words in my mouth.
2. Agnostics are also not allowed to join the Boy Scouts. You quoted my message, but I'm guessing you didn't read it.
C'mon, get it together and stop tilting at windmills.
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Originally posted by lukster
2- Threads should remain on topic, do not "hijack" topics.
What relationship does your message have with my request for an alternative?
Are you suggesting I'm a nazi? I don't get it.
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2- Threads should remain on topic, do not "hijack" topics.
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Where am I bemoaning it? Are you getting confused because I'm mentioning it whenever people ask why I don't just enroll him in cub scouts? It's not bemoaning, it's a simple statement of fact.
1. The scouts are a private organization.
2. Their rules exclude atheists and agnostics.
3. That's their perogative, this is America.
4. Anyone know any alternatives?
Anything you read into my messages beyond that is your own construction.
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Chairboy, I found something that may be just what you are looking for:
here (http://www.camp-quest.org/?contentPage=info.xhtml)
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2- Threads should remain on topic, do not "hijack" topics.
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Explorers. I know for a fact that they have Aviation Explorer's. Growing up I was in Boy Scouts and Aviation Explorers. Unfortunatley I left the Explorers, when I was concentrating on making Eagle Scout.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Lazs: You're not listening.
THE.
BOY.
SCOUTS.
DO.
NOT.
ALLOW.
ATHEISTS.
AND.
AGNOSTICS.
TO.
JOIN.
They kick them out.
This is not "Chairboy pushing an agenda", this is just facts.
You are the supposed aethist. Your child is not. Children are children.
I get a great kick out of folks who are so literaly terrified........of something they say they do not beleive in. :)
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Message 4, I said I didn't want him swearing to god, which he didn't believe in.
And no, I didn't have a problem until you rolled out your condescending "Avoiding the scouts for THAT? Wow." Then I did. Drop it, I'm just looking for something for my kid.
I'm just curious- do atheist kids believe in Santa Clause?
Its kinda hard to swallow that a kid could be an atheist at four years old. Of course they are doing and saying what they are told, but I sincerely doubt they've sorted it all out :)
And BTW, I wouldn't want to seem to criticize how you are raising or not raising your child. But from your responses, I think you were looking for more than links (i.e., a debate on Christian organizations). Color me a skeptic:noid
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I suppose my kid is an atheist/agnostic at 4 just as much as someone elses kid is christian/jewish at 4. Look, I'm not pushing any agenda, despite what some folks are suggesting. I'm just looking for something for my kid, and I've gotten some great suggestions, for which I'm thankful.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
I suppose my kid is an atheist/agnostic at 4 just as much as someone elses kid is christian/jewish at 4. Look, I'm not pushing any agenda, despite what some folks are suggesting. I'm just looking for something for my kid, and I've gotten some great suggestions, for which I'm thankful.
Maybe, but it sounds like typical anti-christian rhetoric to me. If I'm wrong, I apologize.
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Originally posted by BTW
Maybe, but it sounds like typical anti-christian rhetoric to me. If I'm wrong, I apologize.
You're not wrong and I don't apologize.
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Originally posted by BTW
Maybe, but it sounds like typical anti-christian rhetoric to me. If I'm wrong, I apologize.
Ok, what part of what I wrote was anti-christian?
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Ok, what part of what I wrote was anti-christian?
You post at least once a month some complaint about how Christians are oppressing you. Just because you veiled it with a request for info isn't fooling anyone. You want to complain about Christians you have the right. If you treat us like we're stupid expect to be called on it.
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Originally posted by lukster
You post at least once a month some complaint about how Christians are oppressing you. Just because you veiled it with a request for info isn't fooling anyone. You want to complain about Christians you have the right. If you treat us like we're stupid expect to be called on it.
Tell me this, can you suggest anything I should have done differently?
Just not enroll my kids in any type of scouting, is that it?
Lukster, you're pushing your own issues onto this. I'm not veiling anything, I'm being straight up.
You're wrong, do you have the strength of character to admit it and apologize?
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check your PM chairboy
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Thanks Xrtoronto!
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Tell me this, can you suggest anything I should have done differently?
Just not enroll my kids in any type of scouting, is that it?
Lukster, you're pushing your own issues onto this. I'm not veiling anything, I'm being straight up.
You're wrong, do you have the strength of character to admit it and apologize?
What have I done wrong? Call you on your anti-Christian crusade? You trying to tell me that you weren't trying to provoke exactly the response you got from many here? I don't buy it.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Tell me this, can you suggest anything I should have done differently?
Just not enroll my kids in any type of scouting, is that it?
Lukster, you're pushing your own issues onto this. I'm not veiling anything, I'm being straight up.
You're wrong, do you have the strength of character to admit it and apologize?
Lets see. You could have went to google and typed in "secular youth groups."
Or you could've came here and list all the decadences the boy scouts don't allow and imply thats a bad thing.
Another take on it is this:
I could quietly go to Google and search "ACLU opponents organizations" or I could start a new thread here "What groups combat the communist influence of the ACLU?" or "Who is standing up for the children that the ACLU consistently use as pawns?"
See, its pretty easy to inject baseless arguments when you come as a concerned parent. Perhaps you are a concerned parent that is not familiar with search engines. I don't know because I don't know you. But in my skeptical mind, I think its a easy way to take baseless pot shots at the Boy Scouts of America.
Just cause you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get ya..:noid
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You've still to point out exactly what he wrote that's anti-christian.
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Chairboy clearly stated why he came here to ask if there are organizations similar to the Boy Scouts that do not have religious requirements. He tried googling it, but was only able to find commentary on the Boy Scouts. He was unable to find what he was looking for.
So he came here to ask. He got answers. Then individuals start calling him out on his motives, and he defended his original post, the reason for needing an alternative, and even his religious choice.
The only thing he is guilty of is continuing to reply to those who are basically trolling him.
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Originally posted by lukster
What have I done wrong? Call you on your anti-Christian crusade? You trying to tell me that you weren't trying to provoke exactly the response you got from many here? I don't buy it.
I was not trying to provoke anything, I was just asking for scouting ideas for my kids, and I got some great ones. You're pretty much the only person who's freaking out.
If you don't believe me, that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, but please don't make personal attacks.
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Originally posted by moot
You've still to point out exactly what he wrote that's anti-christian.
What I said was he is using "typical anti-christian rhetoric." i.e., the the exposure to Christian terms or values will pollute his innocent child.
Oh and he didn't answer MY question.. "Do little atheist believe in Santa Clause?"
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Originally posted by BTW
What I said was he is using "typical anti-christian rhetoric." i.e., the the exposure to Christian terms or values will pollute his innocent child.
No, that's not at all what I said. The scouts specifically prohibit atheists and agnostics from joining, so my kid _cannot_ join. Doesn't matter if I want him to or not.
Originally posted by BTW
Oh and he didn't answer MY question.. "Do little atheist believe in Santa Clause?"
What does Santa have to do with religion?
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BTW, what's that in bold, heading your post?
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Originally posted by moot
BTW, what's that in bold, heading your post?
I dunno, I don't see anything unusual.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
No, that's not at all what I said. The scouts specifically prohibit atheists and agnostics from joining, so my kid _cannot_ join. Doesn't matter if I want him to or not.
What does Santa have to do with religion?
Tell ya what I'll do. If you can refrain for six months from bashing/mocking christians/religion here I'll agree that this thread wasn't just more of the same ole and apologize. Otherwise I'll continue to call it as I see it.
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Originally posted by lazs2
In the end.. they decided that organized religion was pretty much a scam. That does not mean that they decided god was a scam...
lazs
Agreed.