Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Eagler on January 10, 2002, 11:03:00 AM
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anyone else watched this on tv?
do you think they'll find him guilty?
Looks to me that he outweighed the dead dad by about 100 lbs. I think he could have gotten out of the arguement without going to blows. It takes two to tango. His fists killed someone. I think he's guilty of murder, one type or another.
But not so sure justice will be served though ...
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Originally posted by Eagler:
anyone else watched this on tv?
do you think they'll find him guilty?
Looks to me that he outweighed the dead dad by about 100 lbs. I think he could have gotten out of the arguement without going to blows. It takes two to tango. His fists killed someone. I think he's guilty of murder, one type or another.
But not so sure justice will be served though ...
Somebody his size should know he could kill a skinny dude and NOT hit him more than it takes to defend himself. Didn't the dead dad start it? It's still no excuse, but I think that would stop me from giving him the death penalty. 10yrs? 15yrs? It won't do his children good to have him gone, but he did murder somebody.
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Won't do his kids good if he walks either.
-SW
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I've seen some of it...Prosecuter seems lame. I think this guy might walk.
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Looks to me like he was in a blood rage. It can be hard to turn that off. However, the law expects the person defending himself to stop using force when he is out of imminent danger. Dude will have to answer for that.
Jurys are unpredictable, though.
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It's hardly self-defense when you are on your knees punching a guy in the head who is on his back. The fact that the defendant left the rink after the verbal argument, but then returned for the physical confrontation throws self-defense out the window in my opinion.
We had a bar fight here about 3 years ago in a parking lot where a guy "defending" himself threw the only punch and the other guy fell to the pavement, hitting a parking barrier. He died from head trauma. I think he got 5 years for involuntary manslaughter.
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If the dead guy started it... screw him. The problem w/today is there arent enough bellybutton beatings.
xBAT :p
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he went wrong trying to say it was self defense and saying all the little things like "he had my arms" etc.
he should just own up and say the guy was asking for it - because he was. he got in the guy's face - when you do that you take your chances and everyone knows that.
i think the jury would respond to it and if not at least he'd go down like a man not trying to act like a victim.
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I agree Mr Fish. I kind of think its sad the guy is going to get murder charges for a fight he didnt start..but thats our justice system at work lately :(
xBAT
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He should be found not guilty. I watched a good portion of this, although admittedly not all of it, on CourtTV.
He outweighed the other guy/victim by 100 pounds? Well, yah, but the other guy was fully dressed in hockey uniform, pads, etc. I'm sure he did not look like some puny little guy.
The testimony of virtually all of the State's witnesses was for toejam. They all gave contradictory testimony and changed their stories multiple times.
Maybe if I had seen it all I would have a different opinion, but from everything that I saw, closing arguments, examination of witnesses, I hope this man is found not guilty.
Nim
Oh and the death penalty was never an option and should never be an option in a case like this. To get the death penalty, first of all you have to be charged with murder and *not* manslaughter. Murder requires an actual INTENT to kill, usually in the form of malice aforethought/premeditation. Manslaughter (voluntary) on the other hand is a killing that occurs absent malice or deliberate intent, resulting from a voluntary act committed during a sudden heat of passion (i.e. a fight, finding your wife in bed with another, etc). Involuntary manslaughter is quite similar but usually results from a lawful act performed in an inherently unsafe manner.
At a worst, I think this guy is facing 20 years. If he is found guilty, I suspect he will serve probably 5-7 years max of a 20 year sentence assuming good behavior. On a 10 year sentence for involuntary MS, probably serve 2-4 years pending good behavior.
[ 01-10-2002: Message edited by: aknimitz ]
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Diffrence between a fight and a assault is not fighting back. That guy WAS 100lbs less and I doubt he could have ran down 'ol boy who looked pretty big to me (big enough to kill someone turns out didn't it?) and beat him up.
Take the punch, walk away, call the police, and then see a doctor as to why your permantly disabled and count all his money after the court case. Pry get time off work to party a bit and he'll pay for that too.
Much better. Everyone lives and you can drive by his house in your new car he paid for in the lawsuit, honk and laugh.
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A little off topic... ok, just a different theme on what Creamo said...
I once lived in town. We had a nice little house that sat on a quiet street- quiet except for the rental right across the road. It was occupied by about 12 people (though it was only a 4-room bungalow), most of which were high school age. They didn't go to school- they were "home-schooled". They spent their time causing mischief in the neighborhood and answering their door every 15 minutes all night long (drugs? You betcha!).
I came home from work one day, got out of my car, noticed a piece of trash on the ground on my property, picked it up and turned towards my trash. Suddenly I hear a crash, and a potato flies across the street at me. It misses, but I am seriously pissed.
I pick the potato up and walk over to the door and knock. The snaggle-tooth retard answers, and I tell him the next time they throw something at me the law will arrive shortly thereafter. He yelled something at me, but the poor idiot couldn't speak a legible word of English (except for curse words, which were enunciated perfectly). I said fine, and turned back to my house.
BANG! Out the door comes retard #2. This one thinks he's black, starts with the gang-bangin' posturing and emoting. "You want some O' me? Huh? I whip yo' bellybutton you be comin' back heah!" I find myself infuriated and beside myself with laughter at the same time. Yeah, this guy "grew up on th' eas' si'e O' Be'ford. TH' EAS' SI'E O' BE'FORD!" alright (population 13,500 totally white and bible belt - too much MTV for sure).
I catch myself turning back to the property. Now I know I could kick his bellybutton all over the yard, even if he doesn't know it. I find myself contemplating it. But, thankfully, reason took hold. I knew this kid was a minor, I was a teacher, and I would lose if I touched him. I went back to the house and called the police.
I didn't stop there. I also called welfare (there was a child to a teen mother living there that was subject to a welfare case). I called a friend on the force who was a detective, and alerted him to the drug activity. I called the landlord (also a friend) and told him what was going on. I organized the neighbors to watch and report everything.
You should have seen the looks on their faces when the cops showed up, welfare showed up, the detective showed up, and the landlord dropped the "you're outta here at the end of the month" on 'em. That was priceless.
Yes, it would have been satisfying to club the guy, but in the long haul this was the way to go. No one hurt, and justice was done.
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He slammed his head into the ground, where's the self defense again?
-SW
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SWulfe, is that undisputed? Or is that testimony from one of the eyewitnesses that also states he "he picked her up and threw her against a concrete wall" yeter suffered no bruises or scratches from it?
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I dunno, it was on the news. Wasn't said who gave the testimony, he could of done it himself for all I know- just something I heard.... of course it DID come from Fox...
A fight involving fists in which someone dies, I find it hard to believe it was "self defense"- unless something like what Mickey posted happens...
-SW
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Originally posted by mrfish:
he went wrong trying to say it was self defense and saying all the little things like "he had my arms" etc.
he should just own up and say the guy was asking for it - because he was. he got in the guy's face - when you do that you take your chances and everyone knows that.
i think the jury would respond to it and if not at least he'd go down like a man not trying to act like a victim.
But did he have to go as far as taking a man's life? He lost it, and he should accept the consequences. Sure, they could have had a good box to let out some steam, but the guy went too far.
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Octavious, what you are saying is totally contradictory. Let them have a good box to let off some steam? And what happens when the "bigger" guy punches the smaller guy and causes an artery to rupture in teh back of his neck (freakish, but happens, happened in this case). Or hell, so he punches at him and misses hitting him in the throat collapsing his windpipe/cutting off air? All because you say its ok to let 'em have a box?
Wulfe, that ifnormation about the head pounding came from the victom? hehe - nope, he's dead. It definitely did not come from the accused. It came from one of the witnesses who has changed their stories so many times they dont even know which way is up. Emotion, memory, pressure, stress ... all these things play into the recantation of facts. This case is going to boil down to who was more credible on the stand, who did the jury find more believable. I think the dad wins on that ground.
Nim
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i think he should serve a few years for involuntary manslaughter.
it was a risk he shouldve known he was taking when he started whoopin on that guy so he has to be responsible to some degree.
he should just face up quit trying to get off scott free.
that looks pathetic - i mean what did he expect? no punishment? did he go into it not knowing the consequences? if so then he taught his son nothing.
his actions (issuing a proper asswhoopin), were justified, but he rolled the dice and the guy came up dead. if that happens then some price must be paid.
even if he was right, the guy is still dead so he must do at least some time.
the least he could do is go sit down and do his time like a man and quit trying to fight it. its only right. he owes that time to get right.
as for that dead fool...people out there are ruthless, you gotta have that in mind before you decide to start in with someone, the lil guy should have known that but he sounds like an bellybutton that was encouraging violence and hollow toughery anyway -
people start toejam like they are action heroes, like its a game, but you arent invincible and i have enough scars and crooked fingers to have learned this the hard way and lived - that dead guy apparantly didnt.
3 years is fair with potential for parole after 1/3 or 2/3 of his term if he is behaved. something like that.
imo
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Originally posted by aknimitz:
SWulfe, is that undisputed? Or is that testimony from one of the eyewitnesses that also states he "he picked her up and threw her against a concrete wall" yeter suffered no bruises or scratches from it?
It just my opinion, which is based on sketchy evidence but from what I have seen I would guess what we have here is your typical amazinhunk with more brawn than brain who most likely spent the majority of this HS and younger years being the tough-guy around town. I'd also be willing to bet this clown has kicked more than his fair share of butts over a number of years. Besides...he killed the guy. Nobody deserves to die for mouthing off, or throwing the first punch even, thats ridiculous. How can you be "Life threatening" even with a Hockey stick to a guy who wieghs 270? Also, there are very few fist-fights where people die. The human body, especially one dressed up in a Hockey outfit is not THAT frail. This got out of hand...big tough he-man got out of hand, and I hope they burn him at the stake as an example to the rest of "those".
Tumor
Tumor
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creamo hit it on the head ...
civilized ppl let the lawyers throw the blows now a days, uncivilized ppl need to meet bubba and his squeakes ...
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Well actually I think Creamo's post kind of reflects whats WRONG w/America. We handle EVERYTHING vie lawyers. Yahoo's mouth off, threaten, talk trash etc w/impunity and if you touch them..law suit. They do this and KNOW there will be little to NO chance of consquences. To me the lawyers often shield cowards and loud mouth losers who could most likely use a good bellybutton beating.
xBAT
P.S. I am not in ANYWAY saying Creamo or anybody else in this post is a "coward" or a "loser". I dont KNOW any of you and I'd have to be around you gents in something other than a silly vid game...lol. :)
[ 01-11-2002: Message edited by: batdog ]
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I know the victim is dead. I meant it very well could of come from the guy who is on trial. But I dunno, like I said, it was just something I heard... and it was from FOX nonetheless.
-SW
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OK, involuntary MS with a sentence likely to be around 3-5 years, out in 18 mos for first time offender and good behavior. This is far IMHO.
Nim
errr, in case this wasnt clear, this was the verdict handed out yesterday.