Post by: Cooley on August 06, 2006, 12:31:29 PM
Any of you guys catch that show on Hist Chn. last night about the B-25?
"Inside the B-25 Bomber"
Six veterans who served as B-25 crewmen during World War II share stories from the many missions they flew
then they all go on a ride on a restored B-25,,,was a great show
Its part of the "Saving History" series
not sure when it will air again, here is link if interested
http://www.saveourhistory.com/tv_schedule/
would love to have a few B-25s here ( I realize there are other Bombers that are due though Betty, D017, He111, P2)
but the things you could do with an H model here would be fun :aok
Post by: Toad on August 06, 2006, 12:43:47 PM
HT, Pyro: It's TIME.
Bring the B-25 to AH!
Puh-leez!
Post by: Viper9th on August 06, 2006, 01:00:21 PM
Post by: AutoPilot on August 06, 2006, 01:05:54 PM
Post by: viper215 on August 06, 2006, 01:17:18 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Two of those guys had been in the same Wing as my father.
HT, Pyro: It's TIME.
Bring the B-25 to AH!
Puh-leez!
Agreed
Post by: icemaw on August 06, 2006, 01:43:36 PM
Post by: Stoney74 on August 06, 2006, 01:55:50 PM
I think any of the 75mm equipped versions are too much for the game. I can't even bend my mind enough to think of all the ways they'll get abused. I say just stick with the C/D/J models and keep it sane.
Post by: Viper9th on August 06, 2006, 03:22:29 PM
Quote
Originally posted by AutoPilot
i saw it, was a very good hour of programming which is rare from the history channel.I really liked the actual combat footage of the b-25 with the 75mm cannon barking while in on a target.
75mm cannon, planning on strafing tigers? HOing il2s?
Post by: Guyver on August 06, 2006, 03:29:59 PM
Post by: AutoPilot on August 06, 2006, 03:30:18 PM
Quote
think any of the 75mm equipped versions are too much for the game. I can't even bend my mind enough to think of all the ways they'll get abused. I say just stick with the C/D/J models and keep it sane.
In WW2 they used that version to cut japanese transport ships in 1/2 in one pass.In a recent issue of Warbirds magazine they had a write up about the 75mm versiuon B-25.The hollowed out nose shape.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/902_1154896193_b2575mm.jpg)
Post by: hubsonfire on August 06, 2006, 03:57:06 PM
Post by: Hornet33 on August 06, 2006, 05:05:33 PM
Post by: Toad on August 06, 2006, 05:29:59 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v707/Kaytoo/NewGuinea/parafragbomb.jpg)
Post by: viper215 on August 06, 2006, 05:32:31 PM
Post by: AutoPilot on August 06, 2006, 05:47:02 PM
Para Frags for the spawn campers, i like it.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/902_1154904368_parafrags.jpg)
Post by: ded on August 06, 2006, 06:39:56 PM
Post by: Connery on August 07, 2006, 08:00:43 AM
It only carried about 21 rounds as well!
Post by: Stoney74 on August 07, 2006, 08:39:07 AM
The gun was designed with a 6 klick range. That's right at the edge of icon range.
Post by: Simaril on August 07, 2006, 09:02:33 AM
I cant think of getting hit that way once.
The ROF means that if you're good enough to get a hit with it, you're good enough to use it a more intelligetn way than HO.
Post by: Yoshimbo on August 07, 2006, 09:06:56 AM
Post by: daddog on August 07, 2006, 10:10:21 AM
The H would be fun for some shipping!
Post by: Stoney74 on August 07, 2006, 10:28:45 AM
Bring on the B-25. If you're looking for some good gouge on the plane, check out this website...
http://vmb-613.com
Post by: Karnak on August 07, 2006, 10:49:23 AM
The 6pdr Mollins gun on the Mossie XVIII significantly outperformed the 75mm cannon on the H in US tests simply due to the autoloader.
Post by: outbreak on August 07, 2006, 11:02:34 AM
Post by: ded on August 07, 2006, 11:04:17 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
The 6pdr Mollins gun on the Mossie XVIII significantly outperformed the 75mm cannon on the H in US tests simply due to the autoloader.
Lets get that too then :cool:
Post by: Karnak on August 07, 2006, 11:28:49 AM
Quote
Originally posted by ded
Lets get that too then :cool:
It'd be fun for the Mossie pilot, but not so fun for the tanks or bombers.
Also they only built 28 of them.
All things considered I don't think it should be added.
Post by: toon on August 07, 2006, 12:01:51 PM
Post by: Kazaa on August 07, 2006, 12:07:09 PM
Any rear gunning postion ?
Post by: Toad on August 07, 2006, 05:28:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by COBA94
i missed it but i'll be lookin for it. dad flew 50 missions as radio/gunner out of port moresby,new guiena(SP) bad. i have really good pics.and his mission logs..rabaul,wewak stand out. he was in the squadron that had wolf's heads as noseart. also spoke of skip bombing, said pucker factor was in neg.zone
Never seen a squadron with wolf nose art.
Could it possibly be a 345th Air Apache Wing/ 499th "Bats Outta Hell" squadron plane?
The 499th had this nose art:
(http://modelingmadness.com/reviews/allies/us/cleaver25jc.jpg)
Post by: Toad on August 07, 2006, 05:50:26 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Kazaa
So what would the B-25 add to the game of Aces High 2 ?
Any rear gunning postion ?
1. A great medium bomber, torpedo capable as well.
2. From the C model on there were twin .50's in the tail, either field mod or factory. Until the H, the gunners had to lay on their belly in the position. The H got an armored Bell M-7 turret.
Post by: Kazaa on August 08, 2006, 08:12:13 AM
Post by: toon on August 08, 2006, 08:26:03 AM
Post by: mussie on August 08, 2006, 08:47:04 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Kazaa
So what would the B-25 add to the game of Aces High 2 ?
How about 14 foward firing 50 Cals
Post by: FiLtH on August 08, 2006, 09:00:23 AM
Post by: Kazaa on August 08, 2006, 10:09:43 AM
It had nice speed, good turret locations and a nice bomb load.
I would fly it for sure :aok
Post by: Toad on August 08, 2006, 05:50:21 PM
Quote
Originally posted by COBA94
just got off phone with the man.he was in the 38th bomb group ,5th af..71st bomb squad.the 71st was the wolfs head.he knew a couple guys in the 345th..one was k.t. witt..and his squad was called the treetop terrors.he said later in the war the 822nd and the 823rd got the model with the 75mm.but they were used mainly for barge sweeps and shipping.he got to go on a couple missions with that plane but didnt like it.too damn noisy.
Yeah, my dad is deaf in some hearing ranges from the B-25; he used to sit right next to a ringing telephone in the "bell ringer" days and never hear it at all.
I looked around for 38th stuff. You might pass this on:
Quote
The 38th Bomb Group, The Sun Setters, will hold its next reunion in Mesa, Arizona, USA on 28 - 30 September 2006
Went to a 345th reunion last September with my Dad; he had a great time and so did I.
He must have know K.T. Witt early on; the 345th only used "Treetop Terrors" a short time; they went with "Air Apaches". After the 345th arrived at Nadzab (late Feb 1944) a contest was held and Tree Top Terrors was picked as a group nickname. When they moved to Biak in the middle of July they picked a new name, Air Apaches. Sgt. Pushetonequa, an actual American Indian designed the Indian Head logo.
Post by: Stoney74 on August 08, 2006, 06:00:01 PM
Quote
Originally posted by mussie
How about 14 foward firing 50 Cals
Where does that number come from? The most dedicated forward firing guns I can find are on the H model, with 4 in the nose, and 4 on the blisters, or with the same set up on certain blocks of the J models. I guess if you turn the dorsal turret forward, it would be 10, but the other 4 guns were in the tail and waist. Can someone correct me if I'm wrong? I've seen pictures of B-25's with 8 guns in the nose on a J model, but I can't find anything that refers to that as a factory installed set up. Possibly a field mod? Can someone look that up in America's 100,000 or something?
[Edit] I just remembered America's 100,000 is a book on fighters...and I found a reference to a factory installed 8 gun package. It said that most units equipped with the 8 gun nose removed the 4 blister guns. That keeps us at an 8 forward firing gun net...not counting the dorsal turret.
Post by: Toad on August 08, 2006, 07:24:04 PM
The blister guns were removed because they were pretty hard on the airframe and because the J's were too heavy.
Post by: Stoney74 on August 09, 2006, 10:33:42 AM
I like the B-25, I'd fly the B-25 almost exclusively as a medium bomber, but I think all of the talk about the 75mm and "14 forward firing .50 cals" gets away from the actual aircraft itself, and has people thinking "we need this because it will be an uber-destroyer plane". I hope we eventually get it, because of its historical significance--not because a few variants had all that firepower.
Post by: AutoPilot on August 09, 2006, 11:06:34 AM
Quote
If you look at the game balance issues it could cause,
Just think, instead of the bomber jocks bombing the hangers in FT , they would be low level straffing them instead.
Post by: Toad on August 09, 2006, 07:44:50 PM
As for the B-25J "solid nose" strafer, these were both field modifications and factory issue.
Remember that a huge number of C/D models were modified to 8 forward firing guns by putting 4 in the nose and 2 on each side in the blister packs.
Production J models were standard from the factory with the 4 guns in side blisters.
There were ~480 B-25g's, the first with the 75mm. There were about 1000 B-25H's built, all of those built in Kansas City. The models with 75mm were by no means a "rare" bird. Roughly 1500 out of 9900 had the big gun, about 15%.
As for the B-25J "solid nose" strafer, these were both field modifications and factory issue.
Remember that a huge number ( probably all in the SWPAC) of C/D models were modified to 8 forward firing guns by putting 4 in the nose and 2 on each side in the blister packs.
Production J models were standard from the factory with the 4 guns in side blisters. The nose could be plexiglass or a solid 8 gun nose there were 453 12 gun J's from the factory. The dash of the model number identified those with the 8 gun nose. There were several dash numbers that signified the 8 gun nose. There were 4,390 J models produced in Kansas City, making it the most heavily produced of the Mitchells.
The solid 8 gun nose was also available for field modification and the changeover was relatively easy. The depot at Townsville, Australia, orginators of the "strafer B-25" modded a lot of J's to 8 gun configuration.
In short a lot of B-25J's flew for quite a while with 12 forward firing guns. Over 450 were delivered that way and an unknown number were field modded. (Consider again that almost every C/D in the Pacific was modded to strafer configuration in the field. )Towards the end of the war, the side blisters were removed for weight and maintenance considerations.
Post by: Stoney74 on August 10, 2006, 01:27:44 AM
Post by: A20Gman on August 11, 2006, 10:41:02 AM
Post by: Suave on August 16, 2006, 05:33:12 PM
Did you guys see that movie at zenos on the b25H flying fire mission. In the video they used a formation of the planes like a flying artillery battery. The whole formation of b25s started shooting miles from the target.
Post by: Suave on August 16, 2006, 05:35:31 PM
Post by: Krusty on August 16, 2006, 05:49:52 PM
EDIT: I'm all for the glass-nosed C, the glass nosed J and the solid nosed J (imagine the armament options, with cheeks, without cheeks, etc)
Post by: Dichotomy on August 16, 2006, 05:55:43 PM
Post by: Krusty on August 16, 2006, 06:06:00 PM
Post by: Guppy35 on August 16, 2006, 07:23:44 PM
Then I'd ask that there be a 'strafer' option like the one Toad's father would have flown, which would have been a C/D with the 4 guns in the nose and 4 in two gun packages on each side of the nose ala 5th AF style.
Everyone drools about the H, but in the 5th AF which used the 25 extensively they took the cannon out of the gun tunnel and replaced it with twin 50s as it was more effective.
The 'strafer' version with the 50s were a much more potent aircraft which I imagine is why they went back to the all 50s nose with the later solid nose J.
And Toad, here's a Wolf painted B25C of the 71st BS, 38th BG 5th AF.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/861_1155773815_wolf25.jpg)
Post by: Guppy35 on August 16, 2006, 07:33:29 PM
Ed Cragg and Cy Homer of the 80th covering a 345th B25 on the Rabaul run
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/861_1152950374_80th38s.jpg)
Post by: Toad on August 16, 2006, 07:58:28 PM
I believe that many if not all of the C/D models in the SWPAC had a two .50 mg tail gun field modification.
Check this picture of Tin Liz, ( http://screeningroom.com/pacificwar.html ) same squadron as my father's Quitch. Tin Liz clearly shows a tail gun position; that matches my father's memory of tail guns on Quitch. Additionally, color plates of C/D aircraft in Hickey's Warpath Across the Pacific also show tail guns.
Post by: Guppy35 on August 16, 2006, 10:44:21 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Thanks for the pic!
I believe that many if not all of the C/D models in the SWPAC had a two .50 mg tail gun field modification.
Check this picture of Tin Liz, ( http://screeningroom.com/pacificwar.html ) same squadron as my father's Quitch. Tin Liz clearly shows a tail gun position; that matches my father's memory of tail guns on Quitch. Additionally, color plates of C/D aircraft in Hickey's Warpath Across the Pacific also show tail guns.
Agreed on the tail mods. I wasn't real clear. I'd like a stock C/D model as the RAF had em, and the MTO groups among others without the tail guns.
The strafer C/D would have the 5th AF mods which made it so potent of a ground attack bird. The USN/Marine birds had the tail guns too I think, although I believe they put a single 50 in.
But for scenarios and such you'd need a stock C/D too. Obviously the strafer would get much more MA use.
I just don't want to see a solid nose J or cannon H before I'd see those that did most of the dirty work like those modified strafers :)
Post by: Krusty on August 17, 2006, 10:13:03 AM
I'd like the non-modified versions. Glass nose and factory-made hard nose.
Post by: toon on August 17, 2006, 11:50:33 AM
Post by: mussie on August 17, 2006, 12:04:48 PM
if you want send me a copy of the pic and I will post it for you
gsx1100e@gmail.com
Post by: Major Biggles on August 17, 2006, 12:15:53 PM
a26 would get my vote instead of the b25 :)
Post by: Krusty on August 17, 2006, 12:23:51 PM
Post by: Major Biggles on August 17, 2006, 12:40:07 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
A26 didn't serve in a FRACTION of the capacity that the B25 did. Also saying the A20 is similar is very misleading.
truesay, but i still want one! :D
Post by: Krusty on August 17, 2006, 12:48:08 PM
Post by: Toad on August 17, 2006, 07:00:15 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
I'm not a big fan of the field-modified C/D simply because it only has 4 forward 50cals. The Havoc has 6 of them and flies a lot lighter, it will do the job nicely.
The Townsville strafers actually had 8 forward firing .50's.
Four in the nose and two on each side of the cockpit in blisters.
This is a picture of an early Townsville strafer, B-25C Mitchell, #41-12946, "Margaret" in a hangar at Garbutt airfield, Base Depot Number 4.
(http://home.st.net.au/~dunn/jfox.jpg)
Post by: Krusty on August 17, 2006, 07:49:02 PM
Post by: Toad on August 17, 2006, 08:26:35 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
I'm not a big fan of the field-modified C/D simply because it only has 4 forward 50cals. The Havoc has 6 of them and flies a lot lighter, it will do the job nicely.
I'd like the non-modified versions. Glass nose and factory-made hard nose.
As you like.
But the C/D had 8 forward firing, not 4.
Post by: Krusty on August 17, 2006, 08:40:50 PM
Post by: Toad on August 17, 2006, 08:55:10 PM
Quote
B-25C serial number 41-12437 was chosen for the initial tests. Since in a low-level, high-speed attack the bombs would be released by the pilot, there was no need for a bombardier. Consequently, the bombardier position was removed and replaced with a package of four fixed 0.50-inch machine guns with 500 rpg and aimed directly forward. The guns protruded from a metal plate that replaced the flat bomb-aiming panel. In addition, four more fixed 0.50-inch machine guns were installed in individual external blisters, two on each side of the fuselage. Blast protection from the fuselage blister guns was achieved by using blast tubes on the gun barrels and by mounting large sheet metal plates on the fuselage sides that covered the entire blast area. The plane was appropriately named Pappy's Folly. In the first tests, the fuselage guns were found to be too far forward for the center of gravity, and were later moved further aft.
Trials were sufficiently impressive for General Kenney to order more strafer conversions. By the end of February 1943, twelve strafers were completed by the Eagle Farms operation in Australia and assigned to the 90th Squadron.
Here (http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_us/b025-08.html)
Post by: Guppy35 on August 17, 2006, 11:20:40 PM
Here's the deal Krusty, from my point of view, and that's the history aspect of it. The battle of the Bismarck Sea was these early Strafers. All the Rabaul runs were these early strafers. There's one from Toad's Dad's outfit that flew 180 combat missions.
Sure the late J would be cool, but it didn't do the dirty work and wouldn't fit for nearly the number of scenarios that the early 25s would. Also, if you look at wartime photos of operational solid nose J's they don't seem to have the cheek guns. It's just the nose guns so it's still 8.
And if for no other reason then Toad and the other guy in this thread whose father's flew these strafers, it would seem fitting, if we ever get a 25 that it would be one of those modified C/D birds. The paint schemes on those would be something to see once the skinners got going too and wouldn't it be kinda cool to see Toad out flying his Dad's bird?
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/861_1155874638_pappys.jpg)
Post by: Toad on August 18, 2006, 06:30:20 AM
At one time he had more hours in the B-25 than anyone else in the AF, a bit over 4000 at that time. I was a newborn then. ;)
Post by: Hajo on August 18, 2006, 07:03:46 AM
Great aircraft.....great History.
Post by: Bruv119 on August 18, 2006, 08:34:17 AM
Post by: MajWoody on August 18, 2006, 12:11:54 PM
Post by: toon on August 18, 2006, 12:25:55 PM
!["Photobucket]("http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a9/sweetsn55/4.jpg")
!["Photobucket]("http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a9/sweetsn55/3.jpg")
!["Photobucket]("http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a9/sweetsn55/2.jpg")
!["Photobucket]("http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a9/sweetsn55/1.jpg")
Post by: toon on August 18, 2006, 12:26:37 PM
Post by: toon on August 18, 2006, 12:49:11 PM
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a9/sweetsn55/4.jpg)
Post by: toon on August 18, 2006, 12:49:46 PM
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a9/sweetsn55/3.jpg)
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a9/sweetsn55/2.jpg)
Post by: toon on August 18, 2006, 12:50:21 PM
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a9/sweetsn55/1.jpg)
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a9/sweetsn55/6.jpg)
Post by: toon on August 18, 2006, 12:51:03 PM
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a9/sweetsn55/7.jpg)
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a9/sweetsn55/8.jpg)
Post by: toon on August 18, 2006, 12:51:43 PM
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a9/sweetsn55/9.jpg)
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a9/sweetsn55/10.jpg)
Post by: toon on August 18, 2006, 12:52:15 PM
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a9/sweetsn55/11.jpg)
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a9/sweetsn55/12.jpg)
Post by: toon on August 18, 2006, 12:52:50 PM
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a9/sweetsn55/13.jpg)
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a9/sweetsn55/14.jpg)
Post by: toon on August 18, 2006, 12:53:35 PM
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a9/sweetsn55/15.jpg)
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a9/sweetsn55/16.jpg)
Post by: toon on August 18, 2006, 12:54:08 PM
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a9/sweetsn55/17.jpg)
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a9/sweetsn55/18.jpg)
Post by: toon on August 18, 2006, 12:54:53 PM
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a9/sweetsn55/19.jpg)
(http://[IMG]http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a9/sweetsn55/bhiarrivalandsunset.jpg)
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a9/sweetsn55/bhiarrivalandsunset005.jpg)
Post by: toon on August 18, 2006, 01:04:01 PM
Post by: Guppy35 on August 18, 2006, 11:35:28 PM
I see a "Silver Fleet" B26 in there a 19th or 43rd BG B17E, a 35th FG, probably 80th FS P400 Airacobra and a 39th FS P38F. I'd really like to see that last one blown up in size if possible as I don't know that I've ever seen a photo of "White 13" from the 39th FS but all of em, including the wolf painted B25 noses would be great.
Thanks for posting them
Post by: nugpot on August 19, 2006, 05:57:50 AM
<
nugpot
Post by: toon on August 19, 2006, 07:30:06 AM
Post by: toon on August 19, 2006, 12:13:43 PM
"Ode to Shanty O'Neill"
The 38th Group's been in Guinea too long
We're mighty hard up for a drink
For want of a woman we're all going nuts
Oh, Shanty please say what you think
There are snakes in the jungle and bugs in the grass
The mosquitoes have seven inch prongs
The rain falls in buckets clear up to our ass
Oh, Shanty we've been here too long
Oh, the airplanes all stink and the pilots all drink
The navvies don't know where they are
The bombardiers can't hit a bucket of ****
Oh, Shanty please send us afar
We've been over Buna, we've been over Lae
We've been out to sea after ships
We've been to Gasmata and Vunakanau
Oh, Shanty it gives us the ****s
Now Shanty's our leader, He's Irish they say
Irish as a banshee's wail
But take it from us, we know he's just
Half scotch and half ginger ale.
(Written by Lt. Uhler)
skuzzy, i found this, it was a song by and about the 38th bomb group in the south pacific. i know there are some questionable words and i hope you are able to just edit them, i was afraid to try and am absolutely thrilled with myself that i was able to copy something and post it here.
Post by: toon on August 20, 2006, 11:32:48 AM
Post by: toon on August 20, 2006, 11:33:53 AM
!["Photobucket]("http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l214/summeys1/7-1.jpg")
Post by: toon on August 20, 2006, 11:52:22 AM
Post by: toon on August 20, 2006, 02:16:19 PM
Post by: toon on August 20, 2006, 03:16:30 PM
Post by: toon on August 20, 2006, 03:17:21 PM
Post by: toon on August 20, 2006, 03:18:21 PM
Post by: toon on August 20, 2006, 03:19:27 PM
Post by: toon on August 20, 2006, 03:20:34 PM
Post by: toon on August 20, 2006, 03:21:29 PM
Post by: toon on August 20, 2006, 03:22:20 PM
Post by: toon on August 20, 2006, 03:23:02 PM
Post by: toon on August 20, 2006, 03:23:53 PM
Post by: toon on August 20, 2006, 03:24:39 PM
Post by: toon on August 20, 2006, 03:25:16 PM
Post by: toon on August 20, 2006, 03:38:00 PM
Post by: toon on August 20, 2006, 03:38:52 PM
Post by: toon on August 20, 2006, 03:41:40 PM
Post by: Guppy35 on August 20, 2006, 11:24:22 PM
Now to find out what happened to those birds. If I can find out I'll pass it on.
Post by: toon on August 21, 2006, 09:53:19 AM
Post by: Flayed1 on August 21, 2006, 12:30:14 PM
(http://www.luft46.com/mess/hs129b3a.jpg)
Post by: Krusty on August 21, 2006, 12:34:44 PM
P.S. HT has said "no" on the 57mm so I'm guessing he'd say no to the 75mm.
Post by: Toad on August 22, 2006, 06:40:35 PM
Great photos!
HT, Pyro... it's time!