Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Recap on August 07, 2006, 10:00:04 AM
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I'm still very new to this game and really only have AW to compare it to, but it seems like I may have a problem with aiming and I'm not sure if it is due to computer/hardware issues, or if it is how the game works. Basically, what I'm seeing is that when I somehow manage to get on someone's tail and am within shooting distance, I cannot for the life of me keep the crosshairs on the target. It's as if the nose is bouncing all over the place. I'm pretty sure i have the joystick calibrated correctly. I've worked with trainers on the dampening/deadpans, and that has helped but it has not eliminated the bounce.
I did a test last night where I basically would pull the joystick down or up and just let go. It would come back to center but it sort of bounces there in the middle a bit before coming to a stop. Is this normal? I am currently using a Sidewinder Precision 2 joystick and it twists for use of the rudder. It certainly isn't my desired set up, but before I go out and lay out money for CH joystick/pedals, I thought I would get some feedback from you guys in-the-know. So if there is anything you can suggest, my ears/eyes are open. Thanks!
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i sumtimes have this problem that murders my aiming, i also seem to "bounce back to center sumtimes when i'm workin the flaps. pisses me off.
sum1 please reply with hlp:(
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When I used a logitech wingman extreme, I had that problem alot due to the over-sensitive nature of the twist on it. When I switched to a saitek x52 I got rid of that problem. It has a mild "stop" for the twist action that keeps me from accidently twisting when I don't want to.
You could try setting deadzones higher for the twist, but I didn't have alot of luck with it on my logitech.
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I had that problem as well. I don't know whats causing yours but mine was overcontrolling that I couldn't seem to cure. The problem alleviated itself when I got my pedals but I still can't shoot worth anything.
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Originally posted by Recap
I'm still very new to this game and really only have AW to compare it to, but it seems like I may have a problem with aiming and I'm not sure if it is due to computer/hardware issues, or if it is how the game works. Basically, what I'm seeing is that when I somehow manage to get on someone's tail and am within shooting distance, I cannot for the life of me keep the crosshairs on the target. It's as if the nose is bouncing all over the place. I'm pretty sure i have the joystick calibrated correctly. I've worked with trainers on the dampening/deadpans, and that has helped but it has not eliminated the bounce.
Hi Recap, welcome to Aces High!
The correct term for what you describe as the "nose bounce" is a pitch oscillation. It is a normal characteristic of the control response and flight dynamics of an aircraft. So what what you are seeing isn't exactly a computer/hardware issue, it is the correct modelling of what is known as a short period pitch oscillation, however two aspects of your flight control hardware can influence it.
Originally posted by Recap
I did a test last night where I basically would pull the joystick down or up and just let go. It would come back to center but it sort of bounces there in the middle a bit before coming to a stop. Is this normal?
Yes and no... In real aircraft where the controls have low to moderate control power, and are generally handled gently, pitch oscillations are not normally significant. However, fighters are intended to respond quickly to their controls, they are generally less stable than other aircraft and their control power is relatively high and they have less pitch damping because that would reduce their transient maneuverability. Even so, most real fighters are rarely handled in a way that causes them to behave badly in this respect. Real pilots don’t handle their controls sharply, by snatching the flight stick backwards and then releasing them for a shot, if they did the pitch oscillations would be just as apparent, particularly at the lower end of the aircraft’s speed range. Real pilots tend to make control commands that are positive but steady, for flight sim pilots, who don’t suffer the same physical constraints, control movements and responses are inclined to be far more dramatic and for that reason, even though the aerodynamics may be exactly the same, the flight sim pilot may experience control responses, in terms of oscillations, that few real pilots would normally see.
Originally posted by Recap
I am currently using a Sidewinder Precision 2 joystick and it twists for use of the rudder. It certainly isn't my desired set up, but before I go out and lay out money for CH joystick/pedals, I thought I would get some feedback from you guys in-the-know. So if there is anything you can suggest, my ears/eyes are open. Thanks!
The good news is that because this is a control response, it is something you have the ability to influence with good manual control technique. You simply don’t need to make sudden or sharp control demands. One area where this is particularly important is in the influence this has on gunnery. When you are trying to track a target and hold a guns solution, it is important to make smooth changes of direction so that you can minimize any oscillations that spoil your aim. That’s why it can often be easier to get a kill when the bandit is holding a steady turn, and also why a good guns defense involves sudden and frequent changes of direction. All of that is the same for both real and sim' pilots.
I have found from experience that the design of some flight controls actually make this worse, particularly when they allow you to generate large control movements in very short distances and thus short times. Other flight sticks ease the problem, and I’m also convinced it is not just the physical design of the stick at play, the electronic characteristics of the stick also has an influence on the control signals received by the game and my own experiments with many different sticks show that this can result in a difference in the stability of the aircraft observed in flight simulations. I would say that of all the sticks I've tried, the best in this respect is the CH, USB Combat Stick.
Regardless of what stick you use the pitch oscillations can also be damped out to some extent in Aces High by using the control settings. However, too much pitch damping can have a negative affect on your reaction times in combat so it is important to find a stick that enables you to achieve a good degree of stability with as little pitch damping as possible, once again the CH stick score highly. If you check with some of the best pilots in the game, you will probably find that the majority of them are using the same kit.
Hope that helps…
Badboy
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Thanks Badboy for that very detailed explanation. I think I understand what you mean and yes I know that sudden and sharp movements aren't really what I want to be doing but in my defense this was only a test. I couldn't figure out what was happening when I'm actually in combat. It basically feels like there is too much play in the stick and when I am trying to make small adjustments to stay on target, I just can't. It's a bit like when someone tries to over correct a car that is fish tailing. One attempt at correcting the nose, turns into over-corrections compounding themselves until I'm bouncing all over the place haha. My thought was, if I pull the stick back and let it go..once it's in the center and there are no inputs, it should hold steady. Well it doesn't, the stick is steady but I can watch the nose bounce around a little until it comes to a stop. I'll keep messing with it, and see if there is anything else I can see. Thanks for the feedback.
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in the advance section of the jstick setup I have all my scales all the way to the top. being usb x45, I do not need any help by using this setting in a graduated scale as some do. When I move my stick, I want it to react 1 to 1
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try setting up a button on your stick if you can to toggle combat trim on and off. This helped me, with the combat trim on as you are making your merge for the shot it will keep the nose from bouncing all over.
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Originally posted by Eagler
in the advance section of the jstick setup I have all my scales all the way to the top. being usb x45, I do not need any help by using this setting in a graduated scale as some do. When I move my stick, I want it to react 1 to 1
Another thought is the dampner's & the deadzone in the advanced axis setup... mine are set to minimum, as well as scaled to 100%...
Combat trim is still a mystery to me... it seems to help at High speeds, but seems to hinder at low speed turns. I can use trim to correct but haven't gotten the knack for it yet...
Wormy1
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Do you zoom in when you are shooting? If you are zoomed in to much it is much more difficult to keep steady.
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Like someone said before. Pedals fixed this problem for me i.e. rudder control no longer on the twisty stick.
Like some said again :-) - if you're zoomed in too close thats gonna be a real problem. I have the zoom key assigned to a joystick button. I normally prefer to fly with a zoomed out view - and head position all the way back. When I am just about ready to shoot I zoom in.
Regards
Acetnt
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I'd recommend taking a look at AKAK's stick scale settings (http://479th.jasminemarie.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Downloads&file=index&req=viewdownload&cid=2). His file package shows screen shots of the scale slider settings. AKAK used to work for CH Products, so he is well qualified to give controler advise.
To get to the sliders in controler selection, you have to click on the advanced... button, and check enable scaling. Typically you'd want to scale the pitch, yaw, and roll axis's.
As badboy noted you can expect some osillation, but scaling your axis input can often help soften the osillation.
I'd also suggest not applying very much dampening to your pitch or roll axis. The effect of over dampening will cause you to constantly be exagerating your stick input, and over correcting, which will not help you develop the fine control technique that badboy mentioned.
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Originally posted by Wormy1
Another thought is the dampner's & the deadzone in the advanced axis setup... mine are set to minimum, as well as scaled to 100%...
Combat trim is still a mystery to me... it seems to help at High speeds, but seems to hinder at low speed turns. I can use trim to correct but haven't gotten the knack for it yet...
Wormy1
Combat trim arbitrarly and automatically adjusts your trim in an attempt to keep your nose neutral when you center the stick. This can be handy when you need to trim up in a hurry. It does have some limitations. It does not account for flap deployment, or low torque when you are running at reduced power. It does not react instantly to quickly changing situations that require trim adjustments. In some planes with high speed handling problems, it can be a detrement to dive recovery.
Concerning elevator trim specifically...As your speed increases the lift produced at the wing increases, so combat trim will be trimming nose down. And it will be adding elevator trim as your speed decreases.
Which means if you are doing sustained turns, your speed will decrease while maneuvering. If combat trim is on during sustained turns, it will constantly be chasing the speed change trying to add the set elevator trim for your current speed. So if you pull a sustained turn, and hold a constant angle on your stick, combat trim will effecively cause more elevator input trying to trim to your speed change in spite of you holding the constant input on the stick.
Some people adapt their flying style to combat trim and are perfectly comfortable with its effects. Others, (like me) do not care for their control surfaces to be automatically adjusting things in spite of pilot input.
Personally, I have CT set to a button so that I can toggle it on/off quickly when I need to trim up, but generally have it off. How you choose to use it does not matter to me one way or the other. Im just explaining how it works and what its effects are.
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Thanx Murdr ! !
I can now see why it might now be a good idea to use it...
climbing out or in transit, no big deal...
but going after a trgt, it mite help or hurt... depending on the situation...
thanx again for the explanation...
Wormy1
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Thanks for bumping this again. I'm still fighting the problem pretty much and there are some new suggestions that I'm going to try. If not, think I'm going to have to get pedals atleast.
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The SW Prec Pro 2 stick is a fine stick although some of the twisties will spike with age. Make sure that stick aint spiking.
You can never get rid of all the bounce, only reduce it to acceptable limits. Its in the game. Quality controls count.
Scale your rudder and elevator so the first quarter pull only produces 10% or so deflection (see akak's guide). This helps greatly.
In your fights, be patient. Don't force a bad shot but force your enemy into a planform position where your shots will count.
Your problem is a combination of equipment, scalings, and tactics.
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I had the same problem when i first started to control it as suggested above enable scaling into a shallow start and then increase it so its like a positive correlation from shallow to steep.
After flying for about 8 months the controls didnt get stolen from me and now they dont ever. With the latest patch I have made my stick more sensitive to pull off some sharper turns and rolls without losing control.
Shooting is a big thing in aerial combat so getting good at it is a priority try shooting the drones offline with different armament from all kinds of angles and deflections.
Bruv
~S~