Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Verbal on August 08, 2006, 08:34:14 PM
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I am asking opinions on this, NOT DEFENDING A POINT.
i was wondering what the general concensus of players opinions was on HO fighting. it seems to boil down to 2 points of view.
1) If you a poor flyers, or just plain old pathetic and underhanded you go with the HO kill. and most times you'll get a collision . and this undermines the gentlemanly nature of the game.
2) a kill is a kill. HO fighting is a proven way to kill someone. and yes sometimes you collide, its the nature of the beast.
I wont elaborate on either, i just want to see what everyone thinks on this matter???
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I'll try to answer.
General concensus is....
If you lack ACM you HO.
HO is a quick out, no skill tactic and looked down on when used primarily.
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It takes two to HO. The one getting shot is just as much to blame as the one shooting. As lame as a HO might be, you only become a victim of one if you set yourself up for it.
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I most often see people trying to ho when their base is under attack. It makes sense in a way but it is cheap. I mean the attacker has to fly a long ways to make it back to the field. The guy that is trying to ho everything in sight can just come right back up again if he can avoid getting vultched. Sometimes its easy to avoid and other times not. You read posts where someone says all ya gotta do is this but thats too general I think. Like I said in another thread I can see circumstances where avoiding an ho is very difficult so the reply prior to mine is a generalization at best.
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Ho fighting.... (http://video.freevideoblog.com/video/8bd29bfd-3aed-4b45-be3b-1f3eefe3a547.htm)
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Was cruising along at 17k earlier today in a 38J. Spied a lone 51, he spied me, no other planes around looked like a good fight was in the offing. Went to merge, we were both fast and coming at each other head on. I dipped my nose a little and my right wing to show I had no intention of HOing. He dipped his nose and left wing, matched my course and lit me up.
That is a HO in my book. That is showing no intention of tying to fight our pretend planes until skill decides the winner.
Incidentally, I still beat him and took great pleasure in taking every peice off of his plane until he bailed, then I shot down his parachute. yes, I was bitter.
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if I'm red to you shoot me down.. HO, deflection, on my six, I don't care. You get the kill, I go to the tower, reup, get a beer, and I should have been paying attention to where you were and taken the appropriate offensive or defensive action. As neophyte as I am in this game I've already figured out that the HO is pretty much the easiest attack strategy to evade. Unless, of course, I was in the process of evading or chasing someone on your team in which case you were covering his rear same as I would. *shrug*
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Had a similar experience last night. I was up and about in the 38G when a guy way up high in a 190D9 spotted me. I turned into him in plenty of time. I ducked his HO's 8 different times before he got one hit that gave me a PW and started my right engine smoking. He would literally 'extend' 3-4K before reversing. He had all the speed and I wasn't going to outrun him. Because of the performance gap in the two planes he controlled the fight. I guess in that regard he did fine.
One time he tried to go vertical and turn in on me and I reversed while blacking out from the PW and got a hit on his cockpit. He then went back to coming in guns blazing nose on.
I did everything I could to avoid the HO shot and looking at the film of when he hit me and I was wounded, it was a million to one shot as I'd avoided him again based on the angle.
I think it was just hard as all he knew was full throttle and HO away. Ultimately he got me on the 10th HO as I was blacked out.
I can see why it might drive guys into LAs and 51s just to run these guys down, but I refuse to be dragged out of my 38G :)
I probably shoulda just starting HO'ing back but somehow it seemed wrong to get suckered into it under the circumstances.
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Problem is, some planes have this nasty capability to turn a full-plane shot into a HO before you can react (Spits, Il-2s and Hurricanes in particular are bad about this).
And I maintain this position:
In spite of ALL the vets that say to the contrary, I HAVE NEVER ONCE been in a nose to nose merge where the other plane has NOT taken the shot, even if I showed no intention of a straight HO by going high, rolling, ducking under, whatever. I ALWAYS see the muzzle flash.
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You'll find people with no real training, or much skill that has equated to real life success, endlessly dwelling on ch200 how well practiced they are at this game. Probably because they have exactly nothing to brag about in real life...
The mouthiest digital warriors were too chickenfece to join the military, washed out in police processing, got fired as mall security, and their only sexual conquest is Rosie Palm and her 5 sisters. Yet when logged on to AH, they have something, finally!, to yammer about... and they do.
The idea it takes skill to master a game most any child can become good at is laughable at best... none-the-less these folks cling desperately to their perceived AH community status as a 'skilled pilot', which I'm sure has every KIA WWII vet spinning in their respective graves.
To see alleged adults bragging, to the point of pride, they have the skills of most any kid.. is telling.
A HO shot is considered amateurish to the self appointed AH elite, so is playing the game in a tactful manor. Regardless of how you cause their digital demise, HO shot or otherwise, they will go to emotional poop on 200 suggesting you surviving the encounter was somehow cheap. Giving up all advantage, rolling over and allowing them a free easy stat is the only acceptable outcome.
You can decide to listen to them, or not... it's your $15. Laughing profusely at how serious these little men take themselves is worth $15 alone.
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I have been told to avoid Ho's, but it seems that every time I try to get an angle on someone they turn around and come straight at me...(well the good one's don't, they just disappear and end up about 200 behind me as my wings and tail blow off) but when faced with a plane coming at me, what are my options, I dive...I lose a tail, I climb...I lose a wing....I shoot and I die in a collision. I'm doing my best to avoid head ons, but it seems like alot of people don't. I `guess it takes time and practice...and to all the people I've ho'd...sorry, I'm really trying to avoid it.
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A HO happens from time to time and the best way to get through it is to just accept it. What did you do to put yourself into a position to be HO'ed?
If I am defending a base (usually in an IL-2 since the FH's are first to go next to the VH's) I'll do my best to defend it in any way possible. Doing complicated manuevers against the odds takes up time, kills me E and will generally put me in a position to be picked apart. If I want to win the battle I have to adapt.
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Had a similar experience last night. I was up and about in the 38G when a guy way up high in a 190D9 spotted me. I turned into him in plenty of time. I ducked his HO's 8 different times before he got one hit that gave me a PW and started my right engine smoking. He would literally 'extend' 3-4K before reversing. He had all the speed and I wasn't going to outrun him. Because of the performance gap in the two planes he controlled the fight. I guess in that regard he did fine.
One time he tried to go vertical and turn in on me and I reversed while blacking out from the PW and got a hit on his cockpit. He then went back to coming in guns blazing nose on.
I did everything I could to avoid the HO shot and looking at the film of when he hit me and I was wounded, it was a million to one shot as I'd avoided him again based on the angle.
I think it was just hard as all he knew was full throttle and HO away. Ultimately he got me on the 10th HO as I was blacked out.
I can see why it might drive guys into LAs and 51s just to run these guys down, but I refuse to be dragged out of my 38G :)
I probably shoulda just starting HO'ing back but somehow it seemed wrong to get suckered into it under the circumstances.
10 Bucks says it was oDALLASo?
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in my considered opinion this is what I have to say about that:
I am playing a game that simulates the physics of flying a WW2 combat airplane with guns. I shoot the guns at whatever shot presents itself. This could be a top to bottom shot, a right to left shot, a left to right shot, a front to back shot, a back to front shot, a high forward to low aft shot, a low forward to high aft shot, a back to back shot, a front to front shot......you get the picture........I will take WHATEVER shot presents itself. Having said that, I will try to avoid a collision. I especially like to burst em at about 1.2 and then do a quick break. At least thats what I remember doing.....I dont buy into the HO is evil cult but there is such a thing as a well executed HO shot.
thats all I got to say about that.
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Originally posted by x0847Marine
You'll find people with no real training, or much skill that has equated to real life success, endlessly dwelling on ch200 how well practiced they are at this game. Probably because they have exactly nothing to brag about in real life...
The mouthiest digital warriors were too chickenfece to join the military, washed out in police processing, got fired as mall security, and their only sexual conquest is Rosie Palm and her 5 sisters. Yet when logged on to AH, they have something, finally!, to yammer about... and they do.
The idea it takes skill to master a game most any child can become good at is laughable at best... none-the-less these folks cling desperately to their perceived AH community status as a 'skilled pilot', which I'm sure has every KIA WWII vet spinning in their respective graves.
To see alleged adults bragging, to the point of pride, they have the skills of most any kid.. is telling.
A HO shot is considered amateurish to the self appointed AH elite, so is playing the game in a tactful manor. Regardless of how you cause their digital demise, HO shot or otherwise, they will go to emotional poop on 200 suggesting you surviving the encounter was somehow cheap. Giving up all advantage, rolling over and allowing them a free easy stat is the only acceptable outcome.
You can decide to listen to them, or not... it's your $15. Laughing profusely at how serious these little men take themselves is worth $15 alone.
Just a tad bit defensive aren't ya? Something strike a chord? :)
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Because of the performance gap in the two planes he controlled the fight.
No offense to you gupy , but that right there is prolly why what happened,.......happened! You never fight anyone unless it is on your terms and no matter what plane they are in they never control the fight.Once you master that you will be a force to be reckoned with.
What Tinnman stated was exactly what i look for in the MA.The high alt fight.# of months ago i was in a 109-G-2 in the Ndilses map SW of A-5 at about 25-K and i came across of P-51-b's winged up and flying close formation.They tryed for quite some time to get me both of them HOing the whole time, but i wouldn't let them have a shot and they ended up flying away in a hurry.That is what the real fun of this game is about.Most the time i fly the C202 at around 25-K lookin for a fight, all i find in that is runaway Me-262's.
<<>> Xo847Marine
Thats about the best way i have ever heard this all described :rofl :rofl :rofl
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If a red gujy is in my sights or will be shortly ie. leading the target im gonna shoot. wether im on his six or if its a front quarter or if he is comming head on. im firing
I "used" to not fire in a head on type of pass but 99 times out of 100 the other guy did so now i shoot.
If i want gentlemanly fighting ill go to the da. to me the MA is a streetfight whuile the DA is like a boxing match.
Now if i have some idea of the stick im fighting in the MA wether thru his flying style or from countrymen he already shot down and I know he/she is the honourable type ill refrain from taking the full HO shot but honestly thats pretty rare I get the info before the red guy/gal is ded or I am
this is a game im here to have fun then again war is hell so im all for given em what for ! :cool:
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Originally posted by x0847Marine
The idea it takes skill to master a game most any child can become good at is laughable at best...
It takes hard work to master this game... The willingness to try something different; to push the edge; to give it your best shot and try to suprise yourself. The "skill" is what results from all this. And make no mistake, there is a great difference between those who have swallowed their pride, taken their lumps, and put in the effort to acquire that skill, and those who use an HO as their primary tactic, run from 1v1's, and do not leave the safety of their friends.
It is true that most any child can become good at this game. The same applies to most any old man. I've had my butt handed to me by kids 16 years old and guys over 60. I've been sent down in a flaming wreck by men with personal arsenals larger then some small countries, and men who just look darn ravishing in a pink number (Lew :D ) It really doesn't matter what age you are, or your background. All that matters is that you are willing to put in the time, effort, and determination to improve. I would have thought someone with your military and police training might not think so lowly of such a person?
I will agree with you, however, that some people do let it swell their heads a bit. Kind of silly, considering this is, after all, just one darn fun game :)
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Well... This is how I see it....
If its an LA7, Spit16, IL2, Nikki, Typhie.... I dont even chance it. If they look to be coming in for the Ho, I will open up.
If its an odd plane that takes some skill to fly, I usually will not open up and wait for tracers before I open up. Lastnite MFreak was in a 109F and I was in a Hurri Mk II and we had a cool little turn fight til a F4U1 came into the fray and went for the HO shot and pilot wounded me.
I survived the initial HO from him, But started blacking out and Freak nailed me turning out.
Seeing as you have no idea who is in the other plane, HO's happen. Really no sense whining about it just defend against it.
Minnow
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Originally posted by AutoPilot
No offense to you gupy , but that right there is prolly why what happened,.......happened! You never fight anyone unless it is on your terms and no matter what plane they are in they never control the fight.Once you master that you will be a force to be reckoned with.
I'd disagree with you. If every fight is at an advantage, where is the challenge for you? Why play then if it's only going to be in a situation where you control it all?
I know lots of folks fly that way, and if I had only one life, I would probably fly much more that way, but I have a neverending supply of planes so why not challenge yourself to get better under less then ideal conditions.
I'm not sure what a 'force to be reckoned with" is in AH? Nobody controls anything in the end. The only force to be reckoned with is HTC as ultimately they control the skies that we fly in.
In the end you describe the mentality of probably the majority of people in the MA. To that end I suppose the ultimate test would be to fill the arena with LA7s and nothing else and see who is standing at the end.
I would never claim to be anything but an average pilot at best in AH, and I would never expect anyone to fly the game the way I want them to. It's their dime. But I do understand how some folk question how the game is played from time to time. Is it about ego? I can only speak for myself, but nothing in this game matters enough to me for it to be that. That I'm a good husband and father is all that matters to me in that regard. AH is just a distraction and fun. So in that regard I'd disagree with xMarine.
I do believe that some of the vets passionately care about this game and put a lot into it. As with any of the flight sims, the community can make a difference in that way. That we all agree on one particular style of play will never happen, but talking about it has yet to hurt anything that I can see.
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Originally posted by AutoPilot
You never fight anyone unless it is on your terms and no matter what plane they are in they never control the fight.
Unfortunately, this is not very practical advice for the MA ;)
So, basically, I make my terms:
"I'm probably lower then ya, in a plane that can't out-accelerate ya, and I'm not gonna shoot ya in the face on the first merge... Come n' get me"
See, now it's practical :D
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Guppy i have nothing against what you or the next person does.I was just giving advice you can take it and learn from it or take it with a grain of salt.
Why play then if it's only going to be in a situation where you control it all?
It;s not planning at all it's a version of flight technique that keeps one alive.
The only force to be reckoned with is HTC as ultimately they control the skies that we fly in.
Not how we fly in it though........
In the end it's just a game and most of us know that.Some like to fly around and HO everybody, and not all times it is because it is all they know it's just fun to them.Some get really upset that they got HO'd.Some like to HO when it's five of them against one.Some really get mad after being HO'd.I have gotten mad about it myself.We all learn from are mistakes i hope.The mentality anymore is more of " must get name up in lights by landing kills so i can get some wtg's and feel special" kind of mentality.
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Originally posted by AutoPilot
The mentality anymore is more of " must get name up in lights by landing kills so i can get some wtg's and feel special" kind of mentality.
I agree with this, and wish it didn't exist for that very reason. Attaboys make folks fly it differently too as somehow that becomes status in thier eyes and I suppose contributes greatly to the kill em anyway you can/vulchfest mentality that leads to those "so and so landed 15 kills in his LA7"
Again to each his own.
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I agree with what Tinman says i pull my guns away from the enemy's plane to show him i have no intention of hoing if he takes the shot i consider it a ho and i know he prbly lacks any acm's and is should be an easy kill, it also makes me mad and want to show no mercy and shoot him till he blow's up.
Sometimes you have no choice but to ho when your in a fight and it starts to get slow and he is forcing the ho on every merge.
An example is when i was fighting reeb in spits in a 1 on, he had the alt adv and dodged the ho (even though i didnt shoot) untill he lost all his energy and when it got slow i pointed my guns away from him but he forced the ho on every merge till he killed me 2 pass later on a ho shot.:mad:
We went to the DA later that night and did no hoing fights in spits and i beat him every time. :lol
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If I fly a 190A8, which I often do, the shots when 1 vs 1 are really scarce because the thing turns like a brick and cannot accelerate or run away easily if you don't have near max level speed so you bet I'll HO because that is probably the only firing chance I'll get.
Flying a plane with good maneuverability, say, Spit you can opt for early merge because of good E retention and the two hissos hit hard but fire slowly so the chances of hitting are smaller that with 4x20mm of 190.
I mean it dependes of the plane you fly and of what plane is against you in that situation. If you are low on fuel and RTB:ing you probably HO with any plane and if you do not hit you are dead anyway. So it dependes of the situation too.
I don't have anything against HO'ers. HO me anytime, and I'll HO you back. :D
-C+
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To HO or not to HO :)
The neverending story of AH.....
Any time im in the sights of the enemy, i made a mistake, wheather he shoots me HO or stabs me in the back. My fault, not his. In the MA I *expect* people to go for every shot they got. That doesent mean I do.
IMHO (and thats what i usually tell/show new players) pulling for a HO deliberatly puts you at a disadvantage most times. Its not so much the fact that its a HO, its more the issue that by pulling for a shot that might or might not hit (high deflection) you have to give up angles on your enemy. This effect shows itself when people say "When im out of ammo, i usually end up on the tail of the enemy" - because they stop thinking *shot* and start working on the angles. To make the long story short, i think a 50/50 shot just isnt worth pulling for it.
Then there are the pilots that fly like Guppy described. Come in HO, extend and reverse for the next HO. Those are hard to kill... annoying. Mostly theyll eventually wear you down. Then it becomes an Ego thing - someone with less skill killed you.
For me the MA is a place where everything is fair game. Who ever saidlife was fair? I have my own set of "rules", my own concience i (try to) follow. I cant expect that of others.
The DA is a whole different box though. Or even the MA when in a "duel like" fight. Those situations its about enjoying the *fight*, not the kill.
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It happened IRL, why not in AH.
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I'm not too keen on Ho-ing, myself. I've no interest in dying 50% of them time, however should the need arise i'll take the shot. I'll also take a front quarter shot if i think i can make it, I have no problem in taking a shot if the guy in front can't get me in a guns solution.
I really don't mind the HO jousterstoo much, they're generally easy enough to deal with. Present them your 6 and force the overshoot.
What i do hate are the guys that are simply a moderate exercise of SA. They'll come down on you, should you however roll your plane 45 degrees they will break off and extend 5k, rinse and repeat. I can deal with repeated HO's at least they'll give you a fight if you offer your 6, the SA warriors will on no terms engage you if you see them. I'm not too keen on people who run at the sign of a coalt merge/fight either.
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If I can determine that an enemy is not going to fire at me on a face to face merge and it's clear that he's not clever enough to do something other than trace a straight line across my screen as we merge, then I'll more than likely try to finish the fight right there by putting a stream of lead in place for him to fly through. If he's going to take the shot (eg the aforementioned Mr oDALLASo) then I'll not HO unless I've got a great firepower advantage or the situation is dire enough to warrant it.
It's all rather fun zooming (view) in, watching intently, then trying to guess what the other guy's intentions are and reacting swiftly and accordingly.
In the DA (where I don't spend enough time) HOing is totally pointless.
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I HO all the time in the MA. It's funt o take up an IL2 or 110 and see how many zekes will try to joust. Or even better, how many high alt cons will come down on me and do the same, wasting all their alt and time to climb just to lower the visor and cross lances.
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I host realistical historical missions (in the h2h) with all icons disabled.
You'd be surprised how often a (good) fight leads to a HO.
Sometimes it's just unavoidable
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I dont like to HO much prefer to have a good on the deck furball....
Now I Know that I said that I dont like to HO, But pretty much every time I have not shot at someone as we merge head to head I have been HO'ed so I have given up on being a sports man and will HO pretty much all the time now...
Unfortunatly once in a while ya encounter someone who does not HO back and ya always feel like an unsporting salamander when this happens....
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Originally posted by TinmanX
Was cruising along at 17k earlier today in a 38J. Spied a lone 51, he spied me, no other planes around looked like a good fight was in the offing. Went to merge, we were both fast and coming at each other head on. I dipped my nose a little and my right wing to show I had no intention of HOing. He dipped his nose and left wing, matched my course and lit me up.
That is a HO in my book. That is showing no intention of tying to fight our pretend planes until skill decides the winner.
Incidentally, I still beat him and took great pleasure in taking every peice off of his plane until he bailed, then I shot down his parachute. yes, I was bitter.
Your squadron as a whole does this. I've encountered about 8 of you over the last week. But let's not talk about that tidbit. :aok I just feel bad for my friend VegasX.
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Originally posted by Verbal
I am asking opinions on this, NOT DEFENDING A POINT.
i was wondering what the general concensus of players opinions was on HO fighting. it seems to boil down to 2 points of view.
1) If you a poor flyers, or just plain old pathetic and underhanded you go with the HO kill. and most times you'll get a collision . and this undermines the gentlemanly nature of the game.
2) a kill is a kill. HO fighting is a proven way to kill someone. and yes sometimes you collide, its the nature of the beast.
I wont elaborate on either, i just want to see what everyone thinks on this matter???
Poor design model. Front quarter hits should never have been allowed in the game in the first place. Kills gameplay, kills acm
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Originally posted by Vortex
Poor design model. Front quarter hits should never have been allowed in the game in the first place. Kills gameplay, kills acm
Though I understand your point I disagree...
If HT was to put Front shields on our rides why not Takeoff and landing shields....This would lead to ppl gaming the system...
How... well something has to be the trigger for the shields, so in the case of take off shields lets say it uses the same system as is used to bring the Buff drones into formation at takeoff, for this to happen you have to:
1- Get above 200 feet
2- Raise your gear
So we end up with guys never getting above 200 feet and flying with their gear down to avoid being vulched....
It all comes down to the individual pilots actions and there will always be those who HO, Vulch, Run and Gangbang.... It simply human nature
Remember its game have fun with it
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BTW as dirty as it makes me feel Vulching was a valid tactic....
Yeager got his first 262 kill by vulching it on landing
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Yeager got his first 262 kill by vulching it on landing
That 262 he vulched was something the U.S. knew very little about and it was shooting at friendlys, and in war everything goes.
But this isn't war it's a game and no one's life depends on it.
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Originally posted by AutoPilot
That 262 he vulched was something the U.S. knew very little about and it was shooting at friendlys, and in war everything goes.
But this isn't war it's a game and no one's life depends on it.
WTF... Are you saying Yeager shot down a friendly flying a 262... Ya wanna give me some more info... was it a captured 262 or somthing..
Also unless I am mistaken HO'ing was a valid tactic used in WWII, but here in the Virtual skys its just no fun......
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Originally posted by x0847Marine
You'll find people with no real training, or much skill that has equated to real life success, endlessly dwelling on ch200 how well practiced they are at this game. Probably because they have exactly nothing to brag about in real life...
The mouthiest digital warriors were too chickenfece to join the military, washed out in police processing, got fired as mall security, and their only sexual conquest is Rosie Palm and her 5 sisters. Yet when logged on to AH, they have something, finally!, to yammer about... and they do.
The idea it takes skill to master a game most any child can become good at is laughable at best... none-the-less these folks cling desperately to their perceived AH community status as a 'skilled pilot', which I'm sure has every KIA WWII vet spinning in their respective graves.
To see alleged adults bragging, to the point of pride, they have the skills of most any kid.. is telling.
A HO shot is considered amateurish to the self appointed AH elite, so is playing the game in a tactful manor. Regardless of how you cause their digital demise, HO shot or otherwise, they will go to emotional poop on 200 suggesting you surviving the encounter was somehow cheap. Giving up all advantage, rolling over and allowing them a free easy stat is the only acceptable outcome.
You can decide to listen to them, or not... it's your $15. Laughing profusely at how serious these little men take themselves is worth $15 alone.
:aok
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Originally posted by Schatzi
...pulling for a HO deliberatly puts you at a disadvantage most times...
Very true. I like to go low early and watch people go diving below me because they're determined to take the shot on the initial pass. Sometimes they get a hit (like last night when I left my AV going and planes were getting hits while they looked like they were pointed 45* off :furious AV induced lag!) but most times they just end up lower than me. :aok
Then, of course, I go down, blow my angle, and leave a smoking hole in the ground.:cry
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Sorry you understood mussie, i simply meant that the enemy 262's were shooting down friendly's and we did not know much about the aircraft at the time.
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o my the Sonic show's him self. What i hate is when you dive down to avoid and they just keep blasting away. But if they miss its usually lights out for em.
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Originally posted by AutoPilot
Sorry you understood mussie, i simply meant that the enemy 262's were shooting down friendly's and we did not know much about the aircraft at the time.
262's shooting down friendlies.... I did not know :O
J/K Auto :p
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Originally posted by Schatzi
........snip
pulling for a HO deliberatly puts you at a disadvantage most times. Its not so much the fact that its a HO, its more the issue that by pulling for a shot that might or might not hit (high deflection) you have to give up angles on your enemy.
.........snip
Exactly.
HO's are a non-issue once you know how to deal with them -- either barrel roll through firing range, or do a lead turn (preferably vertical) on to the enemy's 6. Either tactic gives near complete protection from the HO-meisters.
I havent been hit on a HO merge forever...except the few times I mess up the move or "accept" the joust for the heck of it.
I think most guys who scream about the HO are saying as much about their ACM skills as they are about the attackers'. There's no reason you should have to "depend on the kindness of strangers*" to avoid the HO.
So anybody wants to give up angles to try the HO shot on me, feel free. Odds are, it'll hurt you more than it hurts me....
*Bonus points if you know where the quote came from...without google.
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[SIZE=10]NOT ANOTHER FLIPPIN HO THREAD AAARRRGGGGGG!!!!![/SIZE]
yanks out keyboard and beats himself to death with it!
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with a :furious for good measure
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Originally posted by AutoPilot
But this isn't war it's a game and no one's life depends on it.
Yet people yell and scream beacuse they want the game to be more "realistic". . . .
Read the biographies of the aces - most of them mention "HO'ing" at one time or another - especially Bong. It made sense with the grouped firepower of the 38 against the lightly armored Japanese aircraft.
IMHO if the afore mentioned "AH Elite" hadn't cut their teeth in Air Warrior, where the HO shot was effectively disabled, it wouldn't be something to be offended about here in AH. Another case of people whining because the opponents don't fly the way they want them to.
If you have a red plane in your sights - pull the trigger.
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SKjohn i agree with you completely on that.Mr.Bong also had really poor eyesight so the close up shots worked for him even while Head On.I really don't want the "GAME" to be more realistic as much as i want some actual fights once in a while.Last night i ran into this guy at 25-k.he was a spit14 i was in my trusted Razorback and he ends up running away from me like a Chump, ran to his little gurl friends all flying Spit16's HOing every plane they see.I want to find a fight where the spit14 and i tangle for 5 or 6 mins. at 25-K where very few other people fly and i don't have to worry about the "kill happy get my name up in lights Types" are flying.
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Originally posted by AutoPilot
SKjohn i agree with you completely on that.Mr.Bong also had really poor eyesight so the close up shots worked for him even while Head On.I really don't want the "GAME" to be more realistic as much as i want some actual fights once in a while.Last night i ran into this guy at 25-k.he was a spit14 i was in my trusted Razorback and he ends up running away from me like a Chump, ran to his little gurl friends all flying Spit16's HOing every plane they see.I want to find a fight where the spit14 and i tangle for 5 or 6 mins. at 25-K where very few other people fly and i don't have to worry about the "kill happy get my name up in lights Types" are flying.
Well, it'd take us a darn long time to get that high, but I'd like to get a feel for the F4U4's envelope up there, and if you like Jugs, I think we might be able to strike a deal in the DA for a few hours :)
Better find me tonight if you want anything even remotely resembling a challenge, though... I have new gear coming and will be a newbie all over again in a few days... To Jamusta's delight :cry :D
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Originally posted by AutoPilot
SKjohn i agree with you completely on that.Mr.Bong also had really poor eyesight so the close up shots worked for him even while Head On.I really don't want the "GAME" to be more realistic as much as i want some actual fights once in a while.Last night i ran into this guy at 25-k.he was a spit14 i was in my trusted Razorback and he ends up running away from me like a Chump, ran to his little gurl friends all flying Spit16's HOing every plane they see.I want to find a fight where the spit14 and i tangle for 5 or 6 mins. at 25-K where very few other people fly and i don't have to worry about the "kill happy get my name up in lights Types" are flying.
Be careful using Bong as an example. His quote was in essence that his gunnery was poor so he had to 'fly right up their A**' to get his kills. He didn't say he flew right up their nose :)
I woud be curious as to where you saw documentation of Bong having poor eyesight. Never heard that before.
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It was SKjohn that brought Bong up.
I volunteer twice a month at WPAAF Museum and i got the info from there as well as the biography on bong that was on the Military channel.
I read a report about Bong's flight training and it says where he was practicing against the instructor who was in a 38 and he was in a AT6 Texan.Bong was able to reverse behind the experienced pilot.The instructor said Bong was the most naturally gifted pilot he had ever saw.
let me do some digging Guppy and i will see if i can find that and some other stuff i have found.if so i will let you know.
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Originally posted by Simaril
*Bonus points if you know where the quote came from...without google. [/B]
My mom if I'm not mistaken :)
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Originally posted by sullie363
It takes two to HO.
I see this argument alot by HO'ers. It is totally and utterly untrue, think about it. Anyone who flies a plane that manuevers poorly relative to the average knows this. Simply stated, any plane with a major manueverability advantage can force a HO on an unwilling, relatively unmanueverable opponent, Hurricanes and Nikis are fabulous at this. So, if both planes have comparable manueverability it really may take two. But, if one has a significant manueverability advantage he can force a HO in the majority of situations if he commits to it regardless of what the far less manueverable plane does to avoid it...
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
I see this argument alot by HO'ers. It is totally and utterly untrue, think about it. Anyone who flies a plane that manuevers poorly relative to the average knows this. Simply stated, any plane with a major manueverability advantage can force a HO on an unwilling, relatively unmanueverable opponent, Hurricanes and Nikis are fabulous at this. So, if both planes have comparable manueverability it really may take two. But, if one has a significant manueverability advantage he can force a HO in the majority of situations if he commits to it regardless of what the far less manueverable plane does to avoid it...
Zazen
I call BS. A simple barrel roll will always avoid the HO. If you don't have enough E to barrel roll you are a sitting duck no matter which way you are attacked from.
I will even challenge you to the DA to "force" me into an HO, I bet you can't do it.
One of my favorite things to do in this game is up a ME-110G2 with the 4 20 mm's and 2 30 mm's and HO everything in sight. It is simply astounding the number of folks that will fly headlong into a withering stream of cannon fire. I find it hysterical, especially if it illicits an HO whine, oh sure Mr. Spitty let me present my a** to you :huh
The HO is a just as valid a tactic as any other, you fly your plane, I'll fly mine. The louder the whining the more effective the tactics.
There is one caveat, a duel with pre-arranged rules and ettiquete, often includes a wings-level, guns-cold merge at the start. If you expect this in the MA you get exactly what you deserve.
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Simply stated, any plane with a major manueverability advantage can force a HO on an unwilling, relatively unmanueverable opponent,
Zazen
Without comment on your basic premise, I'd just like to point out that anyone in a plane with a major manueverability advantage that HO's a relatively unmanueverable opponent is a tardling.
Obviously, with such an advantage there are far better ways to score a kill.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Your squadron as a whole does this. I've encountered about 8 of you over the last week. But let's not talk about that tidbit. :aok I just feel bad for my friend VegasX.
Does what Mash? Takes planes apart peice by peice or shoots down chutes?
It was the first time I had ever done the latter.
edited for spelling
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Originally posted by TinmanX
Does what Mash? Takes planes apart peice by peice or shoots down chutes?
It was the first time I had ever done the latter.
edited for spelling
HO's.
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I'm sorry you think so poorly of us. I can't speak for the entire squadron, only for myself; I try to avoid the HO at all times.
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Never said you guys were poor. Just stated that in the last 3-4 days I've been HO'd by about 8 different Unforgiven. I've actually had the pleasure of meeting VegasX in person at the 2003 Con. Maybe pass this on to VegasX.
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Originally posted by Toad
Without comment on your basic premise, I'd just like to point out that anyone in a plane with a major manueverability advantage that HO's a relatively unmanueverable opponent is a tardling.
Obviously, with such an advantage there are far better ways to score a kill.
And if more maneuverable also means you are so much slower you will never catch the "less maneuverable" plane?
You think a Hurri is going to be able to maneuver for a kill against a Tempest? IL2 going to catch an LA-7?
It's either HO or be BnZed to death . . .
"All blanket statements are wrong . . . Including this one."
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Never said you guys were poor. Just stated that in the last 3-4 days I've been HO'd by about 8 different Unforgiven. I've actually had the pleasure of meeting VegasX in person at the 2003 Con. Maybe pass this on to VegasX.
VegasX is my CO and he is a great person. Believe it or not, but the squad is made up of over 60 members. I avoid ho's at all cost. And if a head on is presented, I die with honor by not pulling the trigger.
Masherbrum
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And if a head on is presented, I die with honor by not pulling the trigger.
====
This made me fart :huh
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Originally posted by lagger86
I have been told to avoid Ho's, but it seems that every time I try to get an angle on someone they turn around and come straight at me...(well the good one's don't, they just disappear and end up about 200 behind me as my wings and tail blow off) but when faced with a plane coming at me, what are my options, I dive...I lose a tail, I climb...I lose a wing....I shoot and I die in a collision. I'm doing my best to avoid head ons, but it seems like alot of people don't. I `guess it takes time and practice...and to all the people I've ho'd...sorry, I'm really trying to avoid it.
Sir...call me out in MA sometime. I will go to DA or TA and challenge you to get a shot on me HO...betcha cant. After which i will show you how to avoid an HO if you so desire. Let me know.
Now there is the situation where you try for an angle shot but the NME simply has been given enough airspace to get turned HO pass after pass.
This is where you have to be patient and slowly close the gap 1 pass at a time. Eventually you will crowd his airspace and get inside his turn radius . With enough time and an environment that allows...you can finally get the shot you want, or at least A shot of some sort. Herein lies the problem. In the MA 99% of the time, when you take the time needed in such circumstances, you will be bounced by another NME or Picked.
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Originally posted by Charge
If I fly a 190A8, which I often do, the shots when 1 vs 1 are really scarce because the thing turns like a brick and cannot accelerate or run away easily if you don't have near max level speed so you bet I'll HO because that is probably the only firing chance I'll get.
Flying a plane with good maneuverability, say, Spit you can opt for early merge because of good E retention and the two hissos hit hard but fire slowly so the chances of hitting are smaller that with 4x20mm of 190.
I mean it dependes of the plane you fly and of what plane is against you in that situation. If you are low on fuel and RTB:ing you probably HO with any plane and if you do not hit you are dead anyway. So it dependes of the situation too.
I don't have anything against HO'ers. HO me anytime, and I'll HO you back. :D
-C+
Me too, have had some really good fights in the A8. Actually it is safer to LOOK like you are going to HO me. I will pass and it's fight on. I'll just wait and see what the other pilot does during the merge. BUT if you nose down at 1k out to pass under me, I am going to roll 90deg to the left crack in some rudder and fill your plane with 20mm's.
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Originally posted by Kermit de frog
VegasX is my CO and he is a great person. Believe it or not, but the squad is made up of over 60 members. I avoid ho's at all cost. And if a head on is presented, I die with honor by not pulling the trigger.
Masherbrum
Kermie, I know your a damn good stick and had the pleasure of being "clipped" by your gunfire in the MA. We'll have have to go to the DA sometime so I can learn me a couple of things.
You're damn right, VegasX IS a good person.
<> Karaya
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Originally posted by Toad
I'd just like to point out that anyone in a plane with a major manueverability advantage that HO's a relatively unmanueverable opponent is a tardling.
The only thing better than a major manueverability advantage is a major firepower advantage. HOWN!
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Originally posted by g00b
There is one caveat, a duel with pre-arranged rules and ettiquete, often includes a wings-level, guns-cold merge at the start.
Wings level? :confused: :huh
Who've you been dueling?
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ho are so easy to avoid its not funny if you cant avoid one you suck! if your getting killed by ho's its your fault! another moment spent by skuzzy having to read another HO thread is a waste of hitechcreations time.
might as well start another spit la7 thread!
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Originally posted by icemaw
ho are so easy to avoid its not funny if you cant avoid one you suck! if your getting killed by ho's its your fault! another moment spent by skuzzy having to read another HO thread is a waste of hitechcreations time.
might as well start another spit la7 thread!
Sooner or later, people will learn that it doesn't take two. If one moves out the way, sometimes the other will get a lucky high deflection shot. No skill whatsoever to get that kind of shot.
If 1 guys moves out the way, technically, it is no longer a head on for both, but just a "high" deflection shot by the one willing to ho in the first place. Those of you waiting for the guy to move out the way first, only to use rudder to get that snapshot are taking the low skill way of killing.
Most people don't care about how they get a kill, as long as they get a kill. Not everyone plays for the same reasons.
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ho are so easy to avoid its not funny if you cant avoid one you suck
In a 1 on 1 yes.what about a 3 on 1? when there is 3 against you and all 3 of them HO shoot you?2 of them are spi16's and the other 1 is a la-7.What then oh might Icemaw?
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Originally posted by icemaw
ho are so easy to avoid its not funny if you cant avoid one you suck!
On Mindanao at A28 I dove in a Spit 5. Our field was capped. I shot down two. Next thing I see coming out of a loop is NO LESS than 6 Knights HO ing me. Now come on Ice, I'm sorry but those 6+ Knights "suck" more. They all missed proving my last point, but it is pathetic that when in the minority the "majority" are still HO'ing because they have no ACM.
Also I was between A5 and A217 against the Bish on Trinity last map. There were two Rooks on 5 Bish. They HO'd on every pass they made. It's pathetic. It tells me one thing "having the quantity, doesn't mean their quality".
I choose not HO and 90% the passes are cold pases from me. They'll be blazing away. Hell, a couple of tours ago I was in a Spit1, and HO'd a 110 removing a wing from his craft. HE was firing at 1.2 out and never hit me. If you CANNOT hit a plane with 30's, "you suck". He even called me a cheat which made my day that much better knowing the dolt used the 110 as a HO wagon and nothing more.
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Originally posted by AutoPilot
In a 1 on 1 yes.what about a 3 on 1? when there is 3 against you and all 3 of them HO shoot you?2 of them are spi16's and the other 1 is a la-7.What then oh might Icemaw?
well a spit16 and a la7 thats different they are gonna ho you for sure.
come its a 3 on 1 who are you levi you really expect to live through that your gonna die to one of them anyways what difference does it make where he was when he shot you down.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
On Mindanao at A28 I dove in a Spit 5. Our field was capped. I shot down two. Next thing I see coming out of a loop is NO LESS than 6 Knights HO ing me. Now come on Ice, I'm sorry but those 6+ Knights "suck" more. They all missed proving my last point, but it is pathetic that when in the minority the "majority" are still HO'ing because they have no ACM.
Also I was between A5 and A217 against the Bish on Trinity last map. There were two Rooks on 5 Bish. They HO'd on every pass they made. It's pathetic. It tells me one thing "having the quantity, doesn't mean their quality".
I choose not HO and 90% the passes are cold pases from me. They'll be blazing away. Hell, a couple of tours ago I was in a Spit1, and HO'd a 110 removing a wing from his craft. HE was firing at 1.2 out and never hit me. If you CANNOT hit a plane with 30's, "you suck". He even called me a cheat which made my day that much better knowing the dolt used the 110 as a HO wagon and nothing more.
ya well i can see that you were going to shoot them all down if they didnt all ho you at once:rofl
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Originally posted by icemaw
ya well i can see that you were going to shoot them all down if they didnt all ho you at once:rofl
so you agree that what happened was just the "slightest bit lame"?
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come its a 3 on 1 who are you levi you really expect to live through that your gonna die to one of them anyways what difference does it make where he was when he shot you down
Well with that atitude i don't see how you would survive.I regularly fly into a 3 or a 4 or a 5 on 1.Way more fun to do and there is no one there to steal my kills and plenty of targets to shoot at.It;s not always about the kills or getting your name up in lights so you can get a bunch of WTG's for banging 2 in a La-7 or a spit16.I fly my P-40 into 3 on 1 's cuz it's fun.I didn't care if i got shot up before i did it, and i don't care after wards.
That is what i believe is one of the main problems with the MA anymore.It use to be about base capture and winning the war, now it;s about blood thirsty La and spit pilots who feel the will get satisfaction by seeing their wittle name up in lights.Or the score potato who say " lets go too the DA so i can get a lucky deflection on you in my uber late war ride".
But thats just my .02 centz
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Originally posted by AutoPilot
Or the score potato who say " lets go too the DA so i can get a lucky deflection on you in my uber late war ride".
What do you think of a P-40E vs. an F4U-1?
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Originally posted by AutoPilot
Well with that atitude i don't see how you would survive.I regularly fly into a 3 or a 4 or a 5 on 1.Way more fun to do and there is no one there to steal my kills and plenty of targets to shoot at.It;s not always about the kills or getting your name up in lights so you can get a bunch of WTG's for banging 2 in a La-7 or a spit16.I fly my P-40 into 3 on 1 's cuz it's fun.I didn't care if i got shot up before i did it, and i don't care after wards.
That is what i believe is one of the main problems with the MA anymore.It use to be about base capture and winning the war, now it;s about blood thirsty La and spit pilots who feel the will get satisfaction by seeing their wittle name up in lights.Or the score potato who say " lets go too the DA so i can get a lucky deflection on you in my uber late war ride".
But thats just my .02 centz
Agree 100%.
Landing two in an La7 is like taking sand to the beach, nothing special.
I wanna say around February, I was winging with Birdo and we came across two Spits. Birdo ended up getting shot down by Bodhi. Within 10 seconds, Bodhi and Levi were down. I rtb'd. ACM, no HO's, dweeb chit, nada.
I also was in a 5 on 1 in April. I was in a Spit5 and shot down three, and had two other's run. It's still sad that now when this happens, the other's find it necessary to still HO.
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What do you think of a P-40E vs. an F4U-1?
Not really a good match up for the DA.
I like to fly the C202 Vs. C202 in the DA and for one reason only.
1.When in the DA it's not about plane skill it's about pilot skill.Your not going in there because the guys plane was talkin smack to you.The majority are all Hardcore about the DA in the la-7 or spit series, but usually clam right up when you say 202's only.AAloki and i always meet up in the MA on channel 217.He fly's rooks i fly bish and we will meet at a certain area in C-202's and it is really a good time.
Karaya, the other day SLAMMERx and myself were in the baltic map near A-22 at 20-K in P-40-E's, you came along in a P-38-L and dove the CV, made slammer over shoot you for a kill.I was so hoping that you would engage when i found out it was you.
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Schatzi
Vudak
Auto
Myself
Let's fly some pre-44 craft this weekend in the DA. Pick a time 1 vs 1's, 2 vs 2's. Trade some notes, etc. Have a few laughs.
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Well i have a Civil War Event saturday and have too work Saturday night.Sunday during the day is good for me.Can we make it Pre-1943 air craft?ok 1940 -1941 only.
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Originally posted by AutoPilot
Well i have a Civil War Event saturday and have too work Saturday night.Sunday during the day is good for me.Can we make it Pre-1943 air craft?ok 1940 -1941 only.
AP, I'll go Hurri 1's, was just starting somewhere and letting you guys/gals hammer out the details. Gotta begin somewhere.
I can make it.
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Originally posted by AutoPilot
Not really a good match up for the DA.
Cheap on my part, perhaps, but I had some very good fights against a very good stick doing so last night. I lost quite a few of them.
I like to fly the C202 Vs. C202 in the DA and for one reason only.
1.When in the DA it's not about plane skill it's about pilot skill.Your not going in there because the guys plane was talkin smack to you.The majority are all Hardcore about the DA in the la-7 or spit series, but usually clam right up when you say 202's only.
First off, where's Lute for this one :D
Secondly, an awful lot of pilot skill has to do with how well one can handle their plane. Yeah, sure, you know the same manuevers but you may not know the edge a certain plane can ride them on. In that respect, your saying "202's only" really makes you no different then a guy saying "spits only." Wouldn't you say?
I mean, I would not put money on my being able to beat you in anything. But I'd surely be more confident in my ability to give you a more decent run in a Corsair then I could in a 202, or a Spit, for that matter.
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HO vs ACM:
HO is part of real life ACM.
If 6 enemies HO at you, that's life.
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Originally posted by esohn
yawn
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I would not put money on my being able to beat you in anything
I don't play to be able to say i am better than others, i play because it's fun.
In that respect, your saying "202's only" really makes you no different then a guy saying "spits only." Wouldn't you say?
SpitMKI's yes.Hurri MKI's yes.A lot of people in the DA or the MA rely on Cannons, a 20mm will do more damage than a 12mm will so the out come doesn't take as long.If you don't see what i am getting at Vudak then i guess you never will.I like a Cannon free fight, cannons are a crutch.
And someone go check the temprature in HELL cuz me and karaya are agreeing on something.:D
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Originally posted by AutoPilot
And someone go check the temprature in HELL cuz me and karaya are agreeing on something.:D
You've started to become more......................... .....docile. :aok
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I am sorry you are right and I am totally off base and out of line. I apoligize for my harsh statments and regret making them.
Please accept my apologee and try to forgive me. For I am a low life furballer who only flys easy mode spit16s and hands out HO's at every merge.
:o
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Originally posted by icemaw
I am sorry you are right and I am totally off base and out of line. I apoligize for my harsh statments and regret making them.
Please accept my apologee and try to forgive me. For I am a low life furballer who only flys easy mode spit16s and hands out HO's at every merge.
:o
Quit getting pissy, AWMac stole your purse!
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You know, you say this:
I don't play to be able to say i am better than others
And then you say this:
I like a Cannon free fight, cannons are a crutch.
I'm not sure how they fit together well?
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Quit getting pissy, AWMac stole your purse!
lol i thought i put enough irony in that statement
and give me back my money BGB is rich he dont need it
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pfffft
im not rich till i own a warbird
and Jousting is Very Honorable
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I fly as if everyone in the game is going to ho me. And yes i would be terrible at a game of chicken cause i tend to not turn away. BUt i do wonder how many people confuse a ho with a front quarter shot. or a sniper shot to the pilot:)
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Originally posted by E25280
And if more maneuverable also means you are so much slower you will never catch the "less maneuverable" plane?
You think a Hurri is going to be able to maneuver for a kill against a Tempest? IL2 going to catch an LA-7?
It's either HO or be BnZed to death . . .
"All blanket statements are wrong . . . Including this one."
A Tempest isn't always less maneuverable than a Hurri; as you point out, it's much more maneuverable in the verticle than a Hurri. Same with an La-7 and an Il-2.
"Maneuverable" isn't limited to the horizontal plane.
Is your argument then that you will HO an aircraft that is more maneuverable in the vertical?
That you will HO an aircraft that is more maneuverable in the horizontal?
Seems to say you'll take any HO you can.
I do agree that B&Z is pretty boring; on either end of it. Still, the HO is not the only recourse for either pilot in that scenario.
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Originally posted by Toad
Without comment on your basic premise, I'd just like to point out that anyone in a plane with a major manueverability advantage that HO's a relatively unmanueverable opponent is a tardling.
Obviously, with such an advantage there are far better ways to score a kill.
No argument there, except for the fact that more manueverable almost always equals slower plane. So, the guy in the slow turny plane would much rather use his manueverability advantage to force a HO than the likely scenario of watching the fast plane simply disengage and prepare for another pass or egress...
Zazen
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Jesus how many BBs shades are there in this thread?
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Originally posted by g00b
I call BS. A simple barrel roll will always avoid the HO. If you don't have enough E to barrel roll you are a sitting duck no matter which way you are attacked from.
Ever tried barrel rolling to avoid a HO in a Typhoon which rolls like french fried ass? If the Ho'er has anything better than piss poor aim and is in a plane that has gobs of ammo he can spray all over like the Niki...well...good luck to you on the barrel roll...
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Ever tried barrel rolling to avoid a HO in a Typhoon which rolls like french fried ass? If the Ho'er has anything better than piss poor aim and is in a plane that has gobs of ammo he can spray all over like the Niki...well...good luck to you on the barrel roll...
Zazen
Grabbin at straws now to support an invalid argument. I'll take a typhie, you take anything you want, we'll go HO and I'll barrel roll, If you can hit me 1 out 5 passes I'll eat my hat.
Or do you not care to support your argument?
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Originally posted by Toad
A Tempest isn't always less maneuverable than a Hurri; as you point out, it's much more maneuverable in the verticle than a Hurri. Same with an La-7 and an Il-2.
"Maneuverable" isn't limited to the horizontal plane.
Is your argument then that you will HO an aircraft that is more maneuverable in the vertical?
That you will HO an aircraft that is more maneuverable in the horizontal?
Seems to say you'll take any HO you can.
I do agree that B&Z is pretty boring; on either end of it. Still, the HO is not the only recourse for either pilot in that scenario.
I guess I should define something first. To me, the people who say "use ACM skills" to get a kill vs the HO are basically saying maneuver onto the enemy's 6 for the kill. Not sure if this is quite correct, but it was the basis for my statement.
So, my point is that if a Tempest or LA-7 driver has any idea what they are doing, and you are in a Hurri or an IL-2, there is little chance you are going to be able to saddle up on their 6 to take them down. They will continue to use their speed advantage until that last BnZ pass when you can't quite avoid their shot and you die.
OTOH, as the slow maneuverable plane you can take away his speed advantage by presenting the HO. Then you are on more or less equal terms. The faster plane can either take on the HO or break off his attack. But the option you do not really have (again, if the enemy knows what he is doing, and you should never underestimate your enemy) is "maneuvering" for a 6 kill since you will not slow him down enough to fight on your terms.
I put in the qualifying first paragraph because I suppose you or someone else might suggest trying to get the BnZ to overshoot and hit him with a snapshot as he passes, which may qualify as an ACM kill to some. But to me this is as dangerous as the HO (since you are giving the enemy an initial shot) but with less chance of taking him down in the process if his aim is good.
Hope that clears up what I meant.
Rereading your post, I think you are saying in the case I just described, by your definition it is the BnZer that has the "maneuverability advantage" (in the verticle) over the slower plane. Thus if he accepts the HO shot when presented, he is the "tardling" for giving up his advantage. I suppose looked at in that way, we do not disagree -- only a "tardling" will willingly give up his advantage.
In the end, the HO is the great equalizer. If the fight is unequal to your advantage, do not HO. If you are outmatched, then IMHO you should HO away.
Sheesh, I didn't mean to write a book, really!
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Originally posted by g00b
Grabbin at straws now to support an invalid argument. I'll take a typhie, you take anything you want, we'll go HO and I'll barrel roll, If you can hit me 1 out 5 passes I'll eat my hat.
Or do you not care to support your argument?
Grabbing at straws?!? Oh my God! another guy who debates with testosterone rather than reason and logic...joy... :rofl
Zazen
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Originally posted by E25280
.
So, my point is that if a Tempest or LA-7 driver has any idea what they are doing, and you are in a Hurri or an IL-2, there is little chance you are going to be able to saddle up on their 6 to take them down. They will continue to use their speed advantage until that last BnZ pass when you can't quite avoid their shot and you die.
OTOH, as the slow maneuverable plane you can take away his speed advantage by presenting the HO. Then you are on more or less equal terms. The faster plane can either take on the HO or break off his attack. But the option you do not really have (again, if the enemy knows what he is doing, and you should never underestimate your enemy) is "maneuvering" for a 6 kill since you will not slow him down enough to fight on your terms.
![/SIZE]
That's exactly right, in a nutshell. To add to that often, once the point of no return is reached for the faster plane, the slower plane can force a HO with little or no chance for the faster, less manueverable plane to get out of his forward arc.
Zazen
Zazen
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Originally posted by g00b
The HO is a just as valid a tactic as any other, you fly your plane, I'll fly mine. The louder the whining the more effective the tactics.
What a goobR loser dweeb statement! HO's are for folks that are lazy and don't want to learn how to dogfight. If your pathetic life allows you to play this game for more than six months and still call the HO a valid tactic in a cartoon plane game, then it says alot about what kinda of competitor you are. I HO'd the dickens out of people when I first played because it was the only thing that gave me a 50% chance at survival. In hindsight, I realise it was because I had no other manuvers to set the guy up. I agree with Zazen that many of the vets that fly Hurri's see a plane coming in on their 6 with E and turn to face them and fire and then say, "Don't point your nose at me or I will Shoot!" in their lame attempt to validate a pisspoor, loser, no-skill, lazy, not wanting to learn, type of gameplay. When in reality they could nose down for some E, let the guy get about 1000 off, start a slow turn either direction, and barrel roll around the guys bullets to end up on his six as he's passing by to fill his six full of zooka's! Learn to not HO! Learn to not HO! It ruins what is so special about AH, which is the opportunity to "dogfight" WWII planes.
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Originally posted by SkyRock
What a goobR loser dweeb statement! HO's are for folks that are lazy and don't want to learn how to dogfight. If your pathetic life allows you to play this game for more than six months and still call the HO a valid tactic in a cartoon plane game, then it says alot about what kinda of competitor you are. I HO'd the dickens out of people when I first played because it was the only thing that gave me a 50% chance at survival. In hindsight, I realise it was because I had no other manuvers to set the guy up. I agree with Zazen that many of the vets that fly Hurri's see a plane coming in on their 6 with E and turn to face them and fire and then say, "Don't point your nose at me or I will Shoot!" in their lame attempt to validate a pisspoor, loser, no-skill, lazy, not wanting to learn, type of gameplay. When in reality they could nose down for some E, let the guy get about 1000 off, start a slow turn either direction, and barrel roll around the guys bullets to end up on his six as he's passing by to fill his six full of zooka's! Learn to not HO! Learn to not HO! It ruins what is so special about AH, which is the opportunity to "dogfight" WWII planes.
yes i agree 100% with that statement. also i like when ppl try to HO because that means i know i have won. i know that the HOer is a n00b and all i do is dodge the HO and pull a emul on them lol
works like a charm and i win every time. becuase the HO limits there time and im already up and over by the time they finnish shooting. soo PLEASE TRY TO HO ME i need all the free kills i can get.:)
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Take either side of it. (Note: this applies to 1 v 1. If it goes multi v one or multi v multi, that's totally different.)
For example, an aircraft that has a speed/power/climb advantage against a slower plane that turns well but doesn't climb.
Both planes have advantages, just not the same advantages.
In this matchup, the true enemy is boredom. The Hurri, for example, should be able to dodge every high speed pass from the Tempest and make the B&Z pilot miss. There are people who are EXCEPTIONALLY good at this, so there is no doubt it can be done. Is you disbelieve, ask Levi to show you how he does it. (To use just one example.)
Eventually, boredom rears its head. The Tempest will either go find easier prey or will attempt to "mix it up" with the Hurri. If he goes away it's a draw. If he mixes it up, the advantage switches to the Hurri.
The Hurri can't run from the fight, he can only avoid the attacker's passes. When finally bored to tears, the Hurri may well try the HO to swat his attacker.
So really, the decision to HO is one of patience or lack of same in either of the planes mentioned in this example. Sorta depends on who runs out of patience first.
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You've started to become more......................... .....docile.
It's from hanging out with doobs.
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wow I just had an epiphany...
This game is like golf. You're not really playing against anybody but yourself. You strive, strive, strive, strive, to get better but you always suck.
HO, ACM, etc... the guy in the red plane is going to try to kill you. If he does it's your fault.
I got killed tonight because I was stupid enough to fall for the bait. That guy had a better plan than I did. big boy. The defense department regrets to inform the she devil that I was killed because I was stupid.
*shrug*
This is an argument that will never be settled.
But this is just the opinion of a noob that can't fly worth anything.
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But this is just the opinion of a noob that can't fly worth anything.
Did you have fun because thats what it is all about anyways.
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If you want to duel, go to the DA. If you want to HO come to the MA. Simple as that. Don't try to push your dogma on me.
Originally posted by SkyRock
What a goobR loser dweeb statement! HO's are for folks that are lazy and don't want to learn how to dogfight. If your pathetic life allows you to play this game for more than six months and still call the HO a valid tactic in a cartoon plane game, then it says alot about what kinda of competitor you are. I HO'd the dickens out of people when I first played because it was the only thing that gave me a 50% chance at survival. In hindsight, I realise it was because I had no other manuvers to set the guy up. I agree with Zazen that many of the vets that fly Hurri's see a plane coming in on their 6 with E and turn to face them and fire and then say, "Don't point your nose at me or I will Shoot!" in their lame attempt to validate a pisspoor, loser, no-skill, lazy, not wanting to learn, type of gameplay. When in reality they could nose down for some E, let the guy get about 1000 off, start a slow turn either direction, and barrel roll around the guys bullets to end up on his six as he's passing by to fill his six full of zooka's! Learn to not HO! Learn to not HO! It ruins what is so special about AH, which is the opportunity to "dogfight" WWII planes.
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Originally posted by SunKing
I'll try to answer.
General concensus is....
If you lack ACM you HO.
HO is a quick out, no skill tactic and looked down on when used primarily.
I disagree. When i am getting vulched from above, he has more E, more speed, and better angles. There is nothing i can do to get behind him almost. So what am i left with? turn head on to him, and climb into him. Deny him a shot at my 6. Hes got altitude, speed, and all i have left is the Head On shot to try to keep him from getting me. In these situations, when its either HO, or get vulched, is that not a fair shot?
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Reynold's your proving his point for him by typing what you typed.
Sunday in the TA if you have time i will show how defend the situation you described above.PM and i will let you know the time i will be in there.
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Originally posted by Reynolds
I disagree. When i am getting vulched from above, he has more E, more speed, and better angles. There is nothing i can do to get behind him almost. So what am i left with? turn head on to him, and climb into him. Deny him a shot at my 6. Hes got altitude, speed, and all i have left is the Head On shot to try to keep him from getting me. In these situations, when its either HO, or get vulched, is that not a fair shot?
Well if you just got off the runway, by all means, HO away. If you're talking about being lower and slower then someone, take Todd up on his offer... There are other things to do.
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Well, i know the basic turn in to deny him the shot, climb while hes behind, turn again and keep doing that until you are even. Thats what i do, but sometimes you see their shots pinging you head on, you can see their pilot in your crosshairs, and that 30mm is SCREAMING to be used...
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It's simple. The HO is going to be with us forever and ever. Expecting it to go away won't work.
I don't buy into you can avoid it anytime you want. I do believe you can avoid it most of the time. Here's a screenshot of me and that 190D9 that HO'd and ran 10-11 times before he finally hit me. Note where his firing is going. I'm not in the stream of fire, but I took at pilot wound and my engine started smoking at that exact moment. Clearly what he saw and what I saw was different so judging when to slide out of the way doesn't always work.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/861_1155280714_pw.jpg)
That being said, what it speaks to is a lack of effort on the part of the HO pilot not some great tactic.
This isn't the real deal so there is no risk for a guy taking a HO. If he miscalculates, all he loses is his airplane which is replaced by a brand new one everytime he dies.
The minute HTC makes this a one life and you are done game, then I'll buy into the HO as a valid tactic. Because then you have something to lose and the HO involves some risk. Until then it's just lack of effort.
Just my opinion of course and you are free to have fun anyway you see fit in the game. And if that means HOing away everytime, go for it.
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Ill admit. If i have a HO shot, i take it. I take any shot i can get. However, i try to avoid the HOs, just because they arent always that accurate. I will always try a 6 o'clock, or a top-down. They are so much better.
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Well, how many times do you see a HO in a scenario?
Never seen one and I've probably never HO'd in a scenario. Way too risky.
-C+
Ed. actually I've HO'd once, accidentally -chasing one more kill, and lost a wing in the process. :cry
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Hey, that was your wing i was flying today, wasnt it? Anyway, especially in scenarios i like the concept of a HO. if you time things just right, its a perfect shot!
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Originally posted by SkyRock
What a goobR loser dweeb statement! HO's are for folks that are lazy and don't want to learn how to dogfight. If your pathetic life allows you to play this game for more than six months and still call the HO a valid tactic in a cartoon plane game, then it says alot about what kinda of competitor you are. I HO'd the dickens out of people when I first played because it was the only thing that gave me a 50% chance at survival. In hindsight, I realise it was because I had no other manuvers to set the guy up. I agree with Zazen that many of the vets that fly Hurri's see a plane coming in on their 6 with E and turn to face them and fire and then say, "Don't point your nose at me or I will Shoot!" in their lame attempt to validate a pisspoor, loser, no-skill, lazy, not wanting to learn, type of gameplay. When in reality they could nose down for some E, let the guy get about 1000 off, start a slow turn either direction, and barrel roll around the guys bullets to end up on his six as he's passing by to fill his six full of zooka's! Learn to not HO! Learn to not HO! It ruins what is so special about AH, which is the opportunity to "dogfight" WWII planes.
Toad, Zazen & SkyRock. <> there are a few of us left.
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Originally posted by TinmanX
Was cruising along at 17k earlier today in a 38J. Spied a lone 51, he spied me, no other planes around looked like a good fight was in the offing. Went to merge, we were both fast and coming at each other head on. I dipped my nose a little and my right wing to show I had no intention of HOing. He dipped his nose and left wing, matched my course and lit me up.
That is a HO in my book. That is showing no intention of tying to fight our pretend planes until skill decides the winner.
Incidentally, I still beat him and took great pleasure in taking every peice off of his plane until he bailed, then I shot down his parachute. yes, I was bitter.
I dont blame you Tinman i hate it when that happens it seems to me that people in p51 always wanna HO and its really sad in my book. I hate N1k pilots because all they seem to do is fly for the HO nothing else.
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Originally posted by AutoPilot
Did you have fun because thats what it is all about anyways.
every time I up :D
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You guys crack me up. The best cartoon pilot in this game is a HOtard. Where does he fit into your classifications?
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Originally posted by SkyRock
What a goobR loser dweeb statement! HO's are for folks that are lazy and don't want to learn how to dogfight. If your pathetic life allows you to play this game for more than six months and still call the HO a valid tactic in a cartoon plane game, then it says alot about what kinda of competitor you are. I HO'd the dickens out of people when I first played because it was the only thing that gave me a 50% chance at survival. In hindsight, I realise it was because I had no other manuvers to set the guy up. I agree with Zazen that many of the vets that fly Hurri's see a plane coming in on their 6 with E and turn to face them and fire and then say, "Don't point your nose at me or I will Shoot!" in their lame attempt to validate a pisspoor, loser, no-skill, lazy, not wanting to learn, type of gameplay. When in reality they could nose down for some E, let the guy get about 1000 off, start a slow turn either direction, and barrel roll around the guys bullets to end up on his six as he's passing by to fill his six full of zooka's! Learn to not HO! Learn to not HO! It ruins what is so special about AH, which is the opportunity to "dogfight" WWII planes.
Hmmm. Perhaps this is just a bit overbroad (not to mention unpleasant).
I'll throw my money on top of Brauno's here. HOs are not usually a very wise tactic, but I think it's silly not to take any shot that presents itself. Quite often I find that this occurs in scissoring, and also when both planes are doing the endless-loop routine. In the former situation, of course, it was the basis of the Thatch Weave (those lazy pathetic loser Navy fliers at the beginning of the war, remember them?).
Having said that, I found myself at home with extra time on my hands on Tuesday and Wednesday of this week. Couldn't lure the daytime crowd into the AvA, so I spent a fair amount of time (for me) in the MA. There's no question, in my mind at least, that a huge number of fliers there - seemed to me like it was well over half - use the HO as their preferred tactic, which is just plain dumb.
- oldman (heh, unless you're flying Il-2s defending a capped base - I had to admit that was fun) (I also learned that I was all in favor of ganging the survivors of the group that so enjoyed vulching us) (it will turn you vicious, the MA will)
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These are always the best threads. Funny arguments on both sides.
shades without the sac to post under your normal names.
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I'll take any shot that presents itself. If that's a HO shot, and that's my best chance to end the fight quickly, I'll usually take it. If it's a 262 coming at me HO, I'll always take the shot.
I see people complaining about a 1v3 with the three enemies going HO all the time, but I don't understand the anger. I salivate at that opportunity. An enemy who goes HO with me has negated all of his advantages; when severely outnumbered I will take the headon shot whenever the opportunity presents itself.
If it's someone I know, and we're just having fun, of course I won't take the shot. But dagnabbit, virtual war is hell! Buck up, you Nancy boys!
-- Todd/Leviathn
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waaaah. the other guy won't fight the way I want him to. waaaah.
Seriously... it's the MA. The other guy pays the monthly fee just like the rest of us. If they don't want to learn anything but the HO, that is their perogative.
You want a "fair" fight with rules of engagement, then grab a partner and go to the DA.
Oh, and Levi is my idol! :D
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Toad, Zazen & SkyRock. <> there are a few of us left.
Dude, seriusly, stop including yourself in the list. You dont belong in it. :lol
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Originally posted by Reynolds
I disagree. When i am getting vulched from above, he has more E, more speed, and better angles. There is nothing i can do to get behind him almost. So what am i left with? turn head on to him, and climb into him. Deny him a shot at my 6. Hes got altitude, speed, and all i have left is the Head On shot to try to keep him from getting me. In these situations, when its either HO, or get vulched, is that not a fair shot?
Yes. The guy with the E advantage is controling the fight. Given equal pilots, you are dead. So, your best move is to even the situation by turnig head on and making it a 50-50 fight. The key here is that the guy controling the fight, should avoid the HO and try something else. After all, he is the one in control
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Originally posted by BugsBunny
Dude, seriusly, stop including yourself in the list. You dont belong in it. :lol
The bunny is always good to lay it down. Where's Shane when you don't need a shade.
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I prefer HO feature in the game. It's more realistic. That's why i'm looking forward to play AH more so than the old airwarrior.
In real fighting, the pilots had to deal with it, too. The skilled prevailed anyways regardless the opponent HO or not.
In airwarrior, I didn't have to worry about HO but it wasn't that realistic.
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Originally posted by BugsBunny
Dude, seriusly, stop including yourself in the list. You dont belong in it. :lol
What's funny is you think I care about your opinion. I'll never make anyone's list, nor do I want to. So again, my first sentence explains it.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Toad, Zazen & SkyRock. <> there are a few of us left.
Snicker... Oh, you few, the proud, the brave. What an elite group, I wish I could be a part of it :huh You impose your own doctorine to a "game" which has never been sanctioned by any of those in a position of authority, and indeed never even accepted by the majority. So you and your 6 friends can run around screaming "he HO'd me" and feel good and rightous and have an excuse as to why you died. You're cut from the same mold as those who whine about sniper guns, rocket launchers, campers, etc, etc, etc... You should rejoice every time someone goes for the HO and gives you the angles. Or does your sence of honor require you to fly straight and level to keep the fight fair?
Get over it. That HO'ing is somehow "wrong", is a fallacy to protect fragile egos, created by those who simply can't get out of the way of my guns.
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Originally posted by SkyRock
What a goobR loser dweeb statement! HO's are for folks that are lazy and don't want to learn how to dogfight. If your pathetic life allows you to play this game for more than six months and still call the HO a valid tactic in a cartoon plane game, then it says alot about what kinda of competitor you are. I HO'd the dickens out of people when I first played because it was the only thing that gave me a 50% chance at survival. In hindsight, I realise it was because I had no other manuvers to set the guy up. I agree with Zazen that many of the vets that fly Hurri's see a plane coming in on their 6 with E and turn to face them and fire and then say, "Don't point your nose at me or I will Shoot!" in their lame attempt to validate a pisspoor, loser, no-skill, lazy, not wanting to learn, type of gameplay. When in reality they could nose down for some E, let the guy get about 1000 off, start a slow turn either direction, and barrel roll around the guys bullets to end up on his six as he's passing by to fill his six full of zooka's! Learn to not HO! Learn to not HO! It ruins what is so special about AH, which is the opportunity to "dogfight" WWII planes.
Thats ***** retarded. Not all aircraft can accelerate fast enough in a dive to get away. So what, just so the guy doesnt get whiney, i should give him a free kill? I understand that turning tightly can often shake them, but if the guy wants to BnZ, you have every right to counter that maneuver in any way you see fit. I dont understand you guy. I have no qualms with getting HOd. I tried one maneuver, he got lined up, just as i was trying to do, and he pulled the trigger first. Its simple. Its not like the guy vulched you (Which i tend to have a problem with if its done repeatedly by the same guy) You had the opportunity to maneuver out of his line of sight. You didnt do it. You took the guy head on and gave him the perfect shot. You fked up. Dont expect him to feel pity and let you go. He SHOULD take that shot. He earned it fair and square.
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Originally posted by TinmanX
Was cruising along at 17k earlier today in a 38J. Spied a lone 51, he spied me, no other planes around looked like a good fight was in the offing. Went to merge, we were both fast and coming at each other head on. I dipped my nose a little and my right wing to show I had no intention of HOing. He dipped his nose and left wing, matched my course and lit me up.
That is a HO in my book. That is showing no intention of tying to fight our pretend planes until skill decides the winner.
Incidentally, I still beat him and took great pleasure in taking every peice off of his plane until he bailed, then I shot down his parachute. yes, I was bitter.
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Now THIS IS a bad HO. This is the thing we can complain about. You maneuvered to show him you werent going to HO, and he took advantage of you. I agree completely Tinman.
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Originally posted by g00b
Snicker... Oh, you few, the proud, the brave. What an elite group, I wish I could be a part of it :huh You impose your own doctorine to a "game" which has never been sanctioned by any of those in a position of authority, and indeed never even accepted by the majority. So you and your 6 friends can run around screaming "he HO'd me" and feel good and rightous and have an excuse as to why you died. You're cut from the same mold as those who whine about sniper guns, rocket launchers, campers, etc, etc, etc... You should rejoice every time someone goes for the HO and gives you the angles. Or does your sence of honor require you to fly straight and level to keep the fight fair?
Get over it. That HO'ing is somehow "wrong", is a fallacy to protect fragile egos, created by those who simply can't get out of the way of my guns.
Nothing Elite, some don't feel like HO'ing 90% of the time. May favorite's are the one's that run, and give chase when I turn. THose people have NO BUSINESS shelling out $14.95 a month. Then again, I kill 110's in a HO with a Spit 1. But, I don't need to do it all of the time. There is no skill, or challenge to it. Sorry if wanting a challenge is to much to ask.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
What's funny is you think I care about your opinion. I'll never make anyone's list, nor do I want to. So again, my first sentence explains it.
:D Just stating some facts, no opinions. For example, Todd, Zaz, and Sky don't belong in the same list.
By saing "there are a few of us left" you entered your self in three lists. Some you don't belong in and some you don't want to be in. :lol
One is a born killer, the other is a profecional cherry picker, and the third is confused. What did you mean when you said "us?"
:lol
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
I'll take any shot that presents itself. If that's a HO shot, and that's my best chance to end the fight quickly, I'll usually take it. If it's a 262 coming at me HO, I'll always take the shot.
I see people complaining about a 1v3 with the three enemies going HO all the time, but I don't understand the anger. I salivate at that opportunity. An enemy who goes HO with me has negated all of his advantages; when severely outnumbered I will take the headon shot whenever the opportunity presents itself.
If it's someone I know, and we're just having fun, of course I won't take the shot. But dagnabbit, virtual war is hell! Buck up, you Nancy boys!
-- Todd/Leviathn
Hell ifin it's good enough for this guy.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Clearly what he saw and what I saw was different so judging when to slide out of the way doesn't always work.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/861_1155280714_pw.jpg)
That being said, what it speaks to is a lack of effort on the part of the HO pilot not some great tactic.
This isn't the real deal so there is no risk for a guy taking a HO. If he miscalculates, all he loses is his airplane which is replaced by a brand new one everytime he dies.
The minute HTC makes this a one life and you are done game, then I'll buy into the HO as a valid tactic. Because then you have something to lose and the HO involves some risk. Until then it's just lack of effort.
Just my opinion of course and you are free to have fun anyway you see fit in the game. And if that means HOing away everytime, go for it.
good points.
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Originally posted by g00b
Snicker... Oh, you few, the proud, the brave. What an elite group, I wish I could be a part of it
I challenge you to find a post where I complained about being HO'd.
Go ahead, search away.
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Originally posted by g00b
If you want to duel, go to the DA. If you want to HO come to the MA. Simple as that. Don't try to push your dogma on me.
YOU stated that the HO was a valid tactic! Its your foot in your mouth! Don't say stupid watermelon like that unless you are willing to accept how skilless and ignorant you seem if you say it! MA or DA or TA or whatever, you have a choice! You are either going to leanr to fight without stupid idiot tactics, or you are going to be an idiot and brag about it! most in the MA that I see HOing, dop it when they have the advantage! Its about as stupid as it gets. Whats even more stupid is squads like the 31st that HO when they are ganging folks! LMAO!
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Originally posted by BugsBunny
:D Just stating some facts, no opinions. For example, Todd, Zaz, and Sky don't belong in the same list.
By saing "there are a few of us left" you entered your self in three lists. Some you don't belong in and some you don't want to be in. :lol
One is a born killer, the other is a profecional cherry picker, and the third is confused. What did you mean when you said "us?"
:lol
I never mentioned Todd. But those smilies you use for shades purposes must be PCP laced. You obviously suck because of the need to troll and pretend to be funny. News flash, you aren't. < no ghey smilie needed >
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Originally posted by SkyRock
YOU stated that the HO was a valid tactic! Its your foot in your mouth! Don't say stupid watermelon like that unless you are willing to accept how skilless and ignorant you seem if you say it! MA or DA or TA or whatever, you have a choice! You are either going to leanr to fight without stupid idiot tactics, or you are going to be an idiot and brag about it! most in the MA that I see HOing, dop it when they have the advantage! Its about as stupid as it gets. Whats even more stupid is squads like the 31st that HO when they are ganging folks! LMAO!
I understand he has his foot in his mouth, and at the risk of chewing my own toe-nails, i must ask, like i stated above, are there not situations where the HO is a valid tactic? Is it really that hard not to get HOd? Just dive, pull up, brake in one direction... its no longer a HO! If you are going to fly right at the guys guns, you deserve to be HOd. Never close head on. Plane and simple.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
You obviously suck because of the need to troll and pretend to be funny. News flash, you aren't. < no ghey smilie needed >
bugsbunny is very good. I've fought him and bugbait and they both destroyed me.
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easy there skyrock. if a 31st hoed you while you were being ganged doesnt mean we go to the TA and practice hoing. it happened im sure but dont throw the whole squad under the bus. hoing is going to happen but the main complaint i hear on squad vox is that "someone is trying to ho me or someone hoed me". as this must be a recent occurance, since its fresh in your memory i undrstand your bitterness. also,about being ganged, no disrespect intended,seriously, i kinda enjoy multiples v me.3 or less.and who in the ma really expects others to not join in when there is only one eny. i have actually asked other green guys to leave myself and whoever alone to no avail. every sitiuation is different and i'll ho on a few...me v 262 =ho,protecting goon=ho, protecting squaddy in any situation=ho. rather use acm, love a great fight win or lose but sometimes, occasionally a man with a gun gotta do things he dont wanna do.lol.
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I avoid the HOs the best I can. Then when I see the people in the area are zooming around in fast cannon planes, I up one myself and make a point to ignore the mid range planes and hunt those types. When doing that I'll HO till the cows come home. The old "How do ya like me now!".
It probably doesnt make them think about grabbing a different type of plane, but it makes me feel good knowing their free reign in that area is over.
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Originally posted by FiLtH
I avoid the HOs the best I can. Then when I see the people in the area are zooming around in fast cannon planes, I up one myself and make a point to ignore the mid range planes and hunt those types. When doing that I'll HO till the cows come home. The old "How do ya like me now!".
It probably doesnt make them think about grabbing a different type of plane, but it makes me feel good knowing their free reign in that area is over.
w00t! :aok
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Originally posted by g00b
Get over it. That HO'ing is somehow "wrong", is a fallacy to protect fragile egos, created by those who simply can't get out of the way of my guns.
....it aint that it's wrong! It's just that it's the ultimate "no-skill wussie" shot. Nobody likes to get drilled by a no-skill wussie.
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just so I can keep up w/ who's is saying what.....
what name does bugsbunny fly under?
anyone? bugs?
p.s. I luv' guys that only ho. What I REALLY like to do is to sucker 'em into a fight, getting on their 6, tossing a few rounds over their cockpit, and watch them flounder around obviously clueless as to what to do outside of a joust. It's like they don't have the slightest idea what to do in an actual "fight" that requires ACM.
I get a kick out of that.
It's the little things that keeps me going....
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Originally posted by Tumor
....it aint that it's wrong! It's just that it's the ultimate "no-skill wussie" shot. Nobody likes to get drilled by a no-skill wussie.
Youve obviously never been truely jousted. Tried taking a 109 G-14 with the 30mm head on against a spit 16 at 325mph. THAT takes skill. Its hard enough not to collide, let alone get a clean shot.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
I see people complaining about a 1v3 with the three enemies going HO all the time, but I don't understand the anger. I salivate at that opportunity. An enemy who goes HO with me has negated all of his advantages; when severely outnumbered I will take the headon shot whenever the opportunity presents itself
-- Todd/Leviathn
3 things about this lil paragraph:
1. calling someone a HOtwit is not a complaint, its merely a mild insult
2. I never get angry about it at all, as I agree with the last sentence in this your statement
3. As you stated in the last sentence in this paragraph, it negates the HO'ers advantages and therefore is a pretty stupid tactic. Lets say I get HOd 100 times, 99 of those times I dont even get hit, and 1/2 of 1% of those times I just recieve minor damage. It's not like its even effective against peeps who know how to avoid the bullets. I make most of my judgment on the HO by the amount of peeps who do it when they have all the advantages, in which case you can tell the person is not thinking out the advantage and how to completely own the engagement. HO's are a gamble (50%), and well thought out acm's are much more effective and have a higher % of complete success.
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Originally posted by Oldman731
HOs are not usually a very wise tactic, but I think it's silly not to take any shot that presents itself. Quite often I find that this occurs in scissoring, and also when both planes are doing the endless-loop routine. In the former situation, of course, it was the basis of the Thatch Weave (those lazy pathetic loser Navy fliers at the beginning of the war, remember them?).
There's no question, in my mind at least, that a huge number of fliers there - seemed to me like it was well over half - use the HO as their preferred tactic, which is just plain dumb.
- oldman (heh, unless you're flying Il-2s defending a capped base - I had to admit that was fun)
I agree with these statements! I will say that if you throw in some portion of horizontal movement in a scissors fight you can usually get away from that, who got guns around first, moment as well.:aok
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Originally posted by g00b
Get over it. That HO'ing is somehow "wrong", is a fallacy to protect fragile egos, created by those who simply can't get out of the way of my guns.
I would look at you HO'ing me as confirmation that if you tried any other move, you get totally pwned, outflown, arse handed, slappped back to HOdome, weined from innocense, flamebroiled, goose cooked, ....etc. On the other hand, I don't believe I ever said the word "wrong", I said lame, loser, lazy, skilless, and cowardly! It's like playing russian rouhlette in cartoon planes, just a lil pathetic, huh? :aok
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Originally posted by Reynolds
Thats ***** retarded. Not all aircraft can accelerate fast enough in a dive to get away. So what, just so the guy doesnt get whiney, i should give him a free kill? I understand that turning tightly can often shake them, but if the guy wants to BnZ, you have every right to counter that maneuver in any way you see fit. I dont understand you guy. I have no qualms with getting HOd. I tried one maneuver, he got lined up, just as i was trying to do, and he pulled the trigger first. Its simple. Its not like the guy vulched you (Which i tend to have a problem with if its done repeatedly by the same guy) You had the opportunity to maneuver out of his line of sight. You didnt do it. You took the guy head on and gave him the perfect shot. You fked up. Dont expect him to feel pity and let you go. He SHOULD take that shot. He earned it fair and square.
1. I wasnt talking about "getting away", I was talking about killing the bnz'er!
2. Again, me calling someone a HOtwit, is not a whine, its a mild insult!
3. If you had training, you'd know there are many manuvers that counter a bounce and do not involve HOing.
4. 99.5% of attempted HO's on me are failed attempts.
:aok
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Originally posted by Reynolds
I understand he has his foot in his mouth, and at the risk of chewing my own toe-nails, i must ask, like i stated above, are there not situations where the HO is a valid tactic? Is it really that hard not to get HOd? Just dive, pull up, brake in one direction... its no longer a HO! If you are going to fly right at the guys guns, you deserve to be HOd. Never close head on. Plane and simple.
Question: Do I ever HO?
Answer #1 Yes, If Im not even wheels up at a vulched base!
Answer #2 Yes, if I'm fighting 2+ and I am at top of stall (which leaves plane no E to manuver out of bullets)and have no other options but to pull trigger.
Answer #3 Yes to all bombers! :aok
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Originally posted by COBA94
easy there skyrock. if a 31st hoed you while you were being ganged doesnt mean we go to the TA and practice hoing. it happened im sure but dont throw the whole squad under the bus. hoing is going to happen but the main complaint i hear on squad vox is that "someone is trying to ho me or someone hoed me". as this must be a recent occurance, since its fresh in your memory i undrstand your bitterness. also,about being ganged, no disrespect intended,seriously, i kinda enjoy multiples v me.3 or less.and who in the ma really expects others to not join in when there is only one eny. i have actually asked other green guys to leave myself and whoever alone to no avail. every sitiuation is different and i'll ho on a few...me v 262 =ho,protecting goon=ho, protecting squaddy in any situation=ho. rather use acm, love a great fight win or lose but sometimes, occasionally a man with a gun gotta do things he dont wanna do.lol.
Brick I have contacted a few in your squad since that post and will tell you now that I like to challenge folks. I think that we have even flown wing a lil when I was on bish and your a respectable wingy and foe! I will avoid calling out your entire squad from this time forward. Check your PM in here!:aok
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Okay, i still think if you get HOd, its your fault. You shoulda MOVED!!!
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Okay, i still think if you get HOd, its your fault. You shoulda MOVED!!!
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Originally posted by WMLute
just so I can keep up w/ who's is saying what.....
what name does bugsbunny fly under?
anyone? bugs?
Well, that would be BugsBuny.
I think Karaya has shadephobia. Every post of his has the word shade in it, lol
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Originally posted by Reynolds
Okay, i still think if you get HOd, its your fault. You shoulda MOVED!!!
loser skilless response!:aok
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Originally posted by SkyRock
loser skilless response!:aok
You would think, but no. Yall like the WWIIiness, well lets think. Its WWII. You are in a P51, and a 109 is coming right at you. You recognize the markings, Erich Hartman (Yeah, i probably spelled that wrong, but thats too bad) and the top ace of the war is coming right for you. You bet your arse youd be shooting on the merge. Same in the game. If they come for you, you shoot. Can you think of any reason you could not avoid going head on with an enemy? Is there ANY curcumstance where you could NOT move out from in front of an enemy? If you chose to take a pilot head on, expect to get shot. YOURS, is a loser skilles response, because even a retarded kid (And yes, i have seen this to prove it) can turn left and not get HOd.
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Avoiding the HO becomes easier after a while. My main difficulty with accepting the HO is based on reading books like "Fighter Combat" by Shaw that shows HO's are low probability shots and should not be so lethal. I have been criticized by some persons here on the forum for that position. My position still stands.
However, this is the game we have. HO's are quite lethal and if you don't actively work to avoid them you will get shot down. There is no... "it takes two" or "you asked for it"... if you don't actively maneuver to avoid the HO, which IMO has more lethality than a dead six shot, you will get hit.
The HO, while it doesn't require ACM skills, does require some pretty good gunnery so I would not say it is absolutely a 'skill less dweeb' who shot you. I keep it in my list of options but prefer not to HO. However, that is just personal preference on my part. HO'ing is an integral part of the game.
Regards,
Malta
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My preferred a/c is the Hurri iiC and yes I do HOE. If you are dumb enough to come right at me then I will HOE you. ONe shot I have praticed and gotten very good at is the deflection shot. You come HO and turn I will gun you down. What annoies me is when peopl call that a HOE> Guss what it isn't a HOE. HOES are also easliy aviodable. 70% of the time when someon goes Ho I will fire and to be honest I hope you avoid because you gave me what I wanted. Hurris are slow therefore the less E my opponent has the more advantage I have. But there is one thing no one should complain about when it comes to HOE no matter who you are. If you go HO with a 110 and dont expect him to fire your an idiot plane and simple. If you are in a perk plane and try a HO with any cannon equiped a/c then once again you are idiot. Why you get more perks for killing a perk plane. IN a HUrr for shooting down one 262, yes I HOED him for his effort at trying to vulch me I got 20 perks for it. You dont want to get HOED dont put yourself in that position. Last but not least I have noticed that some complain about getting HOE who HOE themselves. They get mad that didnt win or you would not see there name on here or hear there complaints.
Chief31
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Originally posted by Warchief
My preferred a/c is the Hurri iiC and yes I do HOE.
This is not Home & Garden chief.
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holy crap!
never woulda thought this thread would have gone the distance
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Originally posted by Warchief
My preferred a/c is the Hurri iiC and yes I do HOE. If you are dumb enough to come right at me then I will HOE you. ONe shot I have praticed and gotten very good at is the deflection shot. You come HO and turn I will gun you down. What annoies me is when peopl call that a HOE> Guss what it isn't a HOE. HOES are also easliy aviodable. 70% of the time when someon goes Ho I will fire and to be honest I hope you avoid because you gave me what I wanted. Hurris are slow therefore the less E my opponent has the more advantage I have. But there is one thing no one should complain about when it comes to HOE no matter who you are. If you go HO with a 110 and dont expect him to fire your an idiot plane and simple. If you are in a perk plane and try a HO with any cannon equiped a/c then once again you are idiot. Why you get more perks for killing a perk plane. IN a HUrr for shooting down one 262, yes I HOED him for his effort at trying to vulch me I got 20 perks for it. You dont want to get HOED dont put yourself in that position. Last but not least I have noticed that some complain about getting HOE who HOE themselves. They get mad that didnt win or you would not see there name on here or hear there complaints.
Chief31
Ive seen u up a field and do nothing but fly around HOing at everything. Or come barreling through a furball HOing at everything in sight. Note I said HOing "at". I am challengeing you to a duel in hurri2c's gentlemens agreement on NO HOing on any merge which means u have to outfly the guy to get on his six! It is not to see who's better, rather to see just where your at as far as acm's are concerned. The reason being is part of this argument is that many peeps HO because there not comfortable manuvering for the kill. If you have acm's and the DA will prove that, then you will be proving some of the argument wrong! Deal????:aok
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i will ho a 262 or a vulcher everytime.
sometimes if im really pushed i will 'return fire' in a close turn fight ho after the merge, when i know the pilot im fighting has no scrupels about shooting from any ho and i cannot get out the way....... i wouldnt open fire first.
sometimes i fight people i know and we can hold fire for minutes into a fight untill we get a worthy shot, giving up countless even and uneven ho passes.
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
sometimes i fight people i know and we can hold fire for minutes into a fight untill we get a worthy shot, giving up countless even and uneven ho passes.
And those make for some fun, fun fights Batfink :) !
I like the "If I have a shot and you don't have a shot, I'll take the shot, but if the only reason you don't have a shot is because you chose not to push for a HO shot, I won't" deal, myself.
It's pretty obvious when that's the case, IMO.
It's kinda stupid, after all, to match each other in a scissor only to pull the trigger at the exact same time... Much better to keep going until only one guy has a shot. This doesn't mean it won't be front quarter, though.
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My personal opinnion is that it depends on what your flying and the situation you are in at the time.
Example.... I up a YAK-9T from a base that was under attack, climb up for a bit and see nmy dots out ahead and just higher than me. I lvl my 9T out trying to get a bit of speed out of it but well didn't have enough time to get much speed.
A few seconds later I see that it's a Hurri coming twards me so I think Hmm either I can try diving out and hope the Hurri above me dosn't have enough E to catch me or I could try for the HO with my flying field gun :D Those were the only options I could really see working cause I figure there wouldn't be much of a way for my (at the time slow) bazooka packing plane to manuver with a Hurri. :)
When what happenes but the Hurri dips his nose and points it right at me..... Well I think to myself, if that isn't an invite I don't know what is. I figure the Hurri's multipul cannons are a good mach up for my fat single.
I have just enough E to pull up into the Hurri, any higher and I couldn't have done it. We close in and I wait till he's 800 out and Fire off 3 or 4 slugs. He hits my oil but not before I see 2 big explosive looking blasts to his nose and he evaporates...
He pipes in on 200 saying something about how long it takes to get a Hurri over there just to die to a HO.. I said next time don't point your nose at my 9T.
In that instance I couldn't see much of a way out of it and I had the gun to back me up, although I do like to ho people with Spit and Hurri MK1's from time to time. Or sometimes I'll HO IL2's and 110's in what ever I'm flying just to laugh when I have better aim and kill the big gunned monsters with my A6M. ;) I even Ho'd a D9 with a D3A once and won, almost crashed laughing.
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Originally posted by SkyRock
It is not to see who's better, rather to see just where your at as far as acm's are concerned. The reason being is part of this argument is that many peeps HO because there not comfortable manuvering for the kill. If you have acm's and the DA will prove that, then you will be proving some of the argument wrong! Deal????:aok
was gonna refrain from posting to this thread, until I flown in this last Friday KOTH.......which was full of crackshot HO artist might I add.......
I was in a fight with this new person ( new to me anyways had never seen him before) we will refer to him as "popcorn".......well from the get go this guy had the smack down, always I did this because I am better atitude....
during the turn fight he comes in with advantage, I quickly reverse it on him and started gaining angles, he breaks off and runs, calmly telling me over vox, I was gaining on you and could have shot you down but I extended, well his extending was because he did not have the ability to manuever for angles, so he extends and yep you guessed it, revs for the HO train..does this for about 6 extends/HO merges...avoiding them are easy most times, but some of these people practice nothing but the HO tactic, or 90% of the time practice this, I took an oil hit then a pilot wound...all because he could have kilt me in the manuevering but decided to break off and reverse for 6+ HO attempts......
then another HO artist, one that has caught alot of flack lately on this board comes in, does the quick pull trigger HO, pull trigger HO, routine and yep I was rusty shot down in flames again..........well I throw out my idolized & quoted "WTG HO Boy" congrats to him to just make him ill thinking I was mad or sumtin, I admire how much these profound ACES of THE HO Sky, have practiced so hard to make this tactic work for them:rolleyes:
it truly made this last KOTH an unique experience, not in a good way either....
where 4 of the rounds won if not more were from these self proclaimed HO artist.........here's to you the almighty HO Boys WTG ~S~
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K, for those of you who think HOs are easy to avoid. Lets try it in the DA. I will try to HO you and you try to get out of the way. Lets see how easy it is.
Anyone wants to try?
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sure bugs,just for chits and giggles. and skyrock
bud, you are a stand-up guy. and my boy chief is serious, hoing a hurri is as crazy as playing chicken with a train. lol.
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Originally posted by BugsBunny
K, for those of you who think HOs are easy to avoid. Lets try it in the DA. I will try to HO you and you try to get out of the way. Lets see how easy it is.
Anyone wants to try?
Better get someone with a little better aim for that, bud :p
j/k j/k
:noid
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Originally posted by BugsBunny
K, for those of you who think HOs are easy to avoid. Lets try it in the DA. I will try to HO you and you try to get out of the way. Lets see how easy it is.
If you dont make any mistakes (speed and angle wise), most HOs have a pretty good chance of being avoided. Its the repeat of the process and/or the number of HOing enemies that gets me most times.
Anyone wants to try?
Hey, i dont let anyone HO me in the DA!!! :furious
But if youre interested in some wrestling in the weeds...... :t
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In my brief experince so far, I didn't find HO to be a problem.
I found I could avoid it most of the time. It's very easy to do. I allowed some chance hit but I think I could improve on that, too.
HO is not a major problem, I don't think, even for a newbie like me.
I find ACM to be advantageous to wasting time on HO.
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typical HO thread. Someone got shot down in a HO and now everyone comes in to talk about how much better, or more honorable, they are than people who HO.
If being better at a computer game makes you feel better as a man (or woman) then... yay for you?
If the objective for fun is just the ACM and not the shooting down, why not go to the TA where lethality is dialed down? (it is dialed down, right?) You can have your fight and pepper each other without the fight ending right away.
Sheesh, complaining how people fly their virtual planes. Next, people are going to be complaining about the planes people fly... :rofl
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umm schatzi you little lynx.:rofl
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Originally posted by Schatzi
Hey, i dont let anyone HO me in the DA!!! :furious
But if youre interested in some wrestling in the weeds...... :t
Yer so feisty! Gotta love it!
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Originally posted by Nifty
Next, people are going to be complaining about the planes people fly... :rofl
We've got a psychic here, folks. :p
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Originally posted by BugsBunny
K, for those of you who think HOs are easy to avoid. Lets try it in the DA. I will try to HO you and you try to get out of the way. Lets see how easy it is.
Anyone wants to try?
you would miss/i would avoid and waste your angles letting me kill you right after 95% of the time. 5% luck factor involved.
i'll happily test that.
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Originally posted by BugsBunny
K, for those of you who think HOs are easy to avoid. Lets try it in the DA. I will try to HO you and you try to get out of the way. Lets see how easy it is.
Anyone wants to try?
Yes, i will take that. Time and date please?
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Originally posted by Nifty
Next, people are going to be complaining about the planes people fly... :rofl
Um, arent they already? I seem to remember a 4 page thread that started with complaining about a certain pair of P-51s...
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6 pages of replys to THIS? You gota b kidding me..
(http://www.vtxpress.com/rv6/dead-horse.gif)
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Originally posted by rv6
6 pages of replys to THIS? You gota b kidding me..
(http://www.vtxpress.com/rv6/dead-horse.gif)
4 pages.
Plus, that horse looks like it's still twitching.
BEAT IT SOME MORE!
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Originally posted by Reynolds
Um, arent they already? I seem to remember a 4 page thread that started with complaining about a certain pair of P-51s...
People been complaining about HOs and what planes people fly for as long as I've been around this game. If you look at my registration date, you'll see that's been awhile.
Of course, back then the whining about one particular plane was so thick that said plane got itself perked. Though, the plane was accounting for about 1/4 of the kills in the entire MA, so the whines were not completely unfounded. That's how the C-Hog got it's perk status.
Point is, the HO "discussion" isn't new. The "discussion" about what people choose to fly isn't new. Even Lazs talking about the "fluffers" isn't new (but he occassionally comes up with new names for them!) Even people like me coming in and saying "don't worry about what the other guy does" isn't new! :D
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See Rule #5, #4, #2
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See Rule #5, #4
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Originally posted by rv6
6 pages of replys to THIS? You gota b kidding me..
(http://www.vtxpress.com/rv6/dead-horse.gif)
LOL!!! :D :rofl
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Originally posted by SkyRock
See Ruel #5, #4
Now that is comedy.
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Originally posted by Schatzi
But if youre interested in some wrestling in the weeds...... :t
Can we use hot oil?
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This one has run its course.