Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: PonyDriver on August 08, 2006, 10:17:22 PM
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http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,207454,00.html
I was surprised the French govt didn't demand sooner that the Israeli's abandon Lebanon, thus enabling the Hezbo's to launch rockets deeper into Israel as we know thay won't honor any ceasefire agreement for long.*
Count on the French to do this, as near as I can tell their government lacks entirely the ability to discern that there truly is a right and wrong, a good and evil. Maybe when the Islamic extremists are goose stepping through the Arc de Triomphe they will gain enough virtue to know the difference.
*The Koran states that the "faithful" need not honor any agreeements with non-believers.
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"france is teh ghey" is right up there with "sandwiches are pretty good" or "oxygen is important to me".
IMHO, not threadworthy as i BTT:noid :noid :noid :O :t :t :furious :furious :furious :cool:
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Besides if France did become a part of the Intl force in Lebenon they would have surrendered....
In Two Weeks!
:D
Mac
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Originally posted by PonyDriver
Maybe when the Islamic extremists are goose stepping through the Arc de Triomphe they will gain enough virtue to know the difference.
What do you mean when?
(http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Sections/Newsweek/Components/Photos/051101_051107/051103_ParisRiots_wide..hlarge.jpg)
(http://www2.rnw.nl/images/assets/11166583)
(http://www.fhbc.org/Paris%20France_files/MuslimParis.jpg)
(http://islamonline.net/English/News/2006-02/12/images/pic01.jpg)
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The French will only support the Israeli cause when they reap some financial benefit from it.
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After all the riots and such from the summer of '05...I'm not surprised.
And Im sorry, France aint had a backbone for ages.
The French cant seem to stand anyone that isnt as moronic as they are.
Makes me glad my relatives ditched the country in the 1800s
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In effect, the thread's OP is probably accurate, as are its concurent replies.. but it's so obviously distorted by absence of almost any practical understanding of the french point of view, it boggles the mind.
I'll say why I dislike living in France. It's the sideline jeering.
Calling foreigners dirty, and foreigners calling the french dirty. The same lazy complacency that foreigners are just no good, inherently to their unfrenchiness, much the same way Neubob described with his dinner table analogy.
From the US, in average, it gets the simple "white flag" earmark, which is like I said, accurate in effect.
What itches is seeing the same armchair kneejerk "intellect" coming from not anyone else, but a country that's supposed to be in a position to mock that surrendermonkey mentality.
When you fail to thoroughly understand that which you wish to passively or actively defeat, you give up the tools required to defeat it and surrender to joining into bigotedness.
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Originally posted by Debonair
"france is teh ghey" is right up there with "sandwiches are pretty good" or "oxygen is important to me".
IMHO, not threadworthy as i BTT:noid :noid :noid :O :t :t :furious :furious :furious :cool:
Do you ever make any worthwhile posts?
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Originally posted by Elfie
Do you ever make any worthwhile posts?
His post still have more values than the post of Neubob or AWMac
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I've heard POV's from French persons but not their government. To a man it's always the same, they simply lack the moral clarity to agree that there is evil in the world, that there are bad people who are willing to kill others simply because of differring ideology. They always want to make both sides of the conflict to be equally culpable. It's this lack of moral strength that baffles me... it's literally, from my POV, as if Euope and France specifically learned nothing from the mistakes of those who twiddled their thumbs as Hitler prepared for war.
I believe that the French live in fear of Islamic terrorism and wish to avoid being attacked, thus their current position. There really is no other logical conclusion to draw(beyond siding with anyone who hates America, or anti-semitism). Like Chamberlain, you can only dance with the devil so long before you get burned. The French are solving nothing, only delaying the problem and in the prcess exacerbating it.
Today's European(at least those on this board and those i speak with) would probably try to mitigate the actions of Nazi Germany by placing blame elsewhere....whether it's the Jews, England, or their old standby fall guy, the USA.
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I can't tape and host it at the moment, but if you want some pertinent no-BS info, "Le vrai journal" by Karl Zero, on Canal Plus, is a good political brief.
It's not neutral, but incisive and articulate enough that you have no trouble discerning facts from suggestion.
Speaking of moral strentgh, aren't constitutional and other political erosions in the US due to a similar lack of integrity on the population's part?
What's the voting abstention percentage again?
Where's the opposition to corruption of things like illegals and privacy?
etc.
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Speaking of moral strentgh, aren't constitutional and other political erosions in the US due to a similar lack of integrity on the population's part?
I believe so, yes. Many of our citizens have the same malaise when it comes to morality. Another sickening trend here is that people will cast aside what beliefs/morals they have because they want their party in power. Individual politicians routinely commit unconscionable acts for fear of offending one block of voters or another, even though the path seems painfully clear. I use the case of our open borders as an example. The combined house won't take decisive action for fear of offending the hispanic vote.... this is unforgiveable to me. They do this in spite of the fact that over 80% of the voting public wants the borders closed.
another sickening example of politicians fear of losing votes is their pandering to the few who want to erase things like "In god we trust" from our currency. These people represent less than 4% of our population yet the politicians entertain these ideas simply because the 4% are more vocal thant the other 96%. It's embarrassing .... rediculous.
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Yes, and these traits aren't a matter of nationality..
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I agree. I didn't mean to imply that this is a French problem. In fact, I consider it to be an alarming trend here in the US. In other words, I don't think it is some small thing, but rather something that will cause problems for us domestically and abroad should this continue to spread as it seems to be.
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Lots of the usual smack talking here and not a single person has even got close to the main point that Fox manages not to mention.
The proposed multinational force for Lebanon would be under French leadership. To me, that gives them a bigger say in the conditions under which it enters Lebanon than the US government and the peanut gallery at the AH O'club.
How many troops for a stablisation force has the USA offered? How about none at all. Why might that be? Because your incompetent administration has got you bogged down in Iraq while simultaeneously assuring that no arab state moderate or otherwise is likely to see the US as an honest broker are my guesses.
Originally posted by PonyDriver
I believe that the French live in fear of Islamic terrorism and wish to avoid being attacked, thus their current position. There really is no other logical conclusion to draw(beyond siding with anyone who hates America, or anti-semitism). Like Chamberlain, you can only dance with the devil so long before you get burned. The French are solving nothing, only delaying the problem and in the prcess exacerbating it.
Today's European(at least those on this board and those i speak with) would probably try to mitigate the actions of Nazi Germany by placing blame elsewhere....whether it's the Jews, England, or their old standby fall guy, the USA.
Stuff and nonsense. Hezbollah isn't Nazi germany. It's not even fascist italy. That you think a threat like this truly poses a threat of the level you are suggesting just demonstrates how little you understand it.
France arguably has a record of fighting Islamic terrorism better than that the USA. At least they actually manage to catch the perpetrators of attacks against them or even prevent the attacks in the first place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_8969
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_bombings_in_France
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaled_Kelkal
Conversley, the US has probably done more to encourage radical islamism in the last few decades than it has to constrain it, unless you're going to give yourselves a pass over your relationship with the Saudis, the Pakistanis, the Afghan jihadis, the KLA etc etc.
No western country including France really has an issue with a campaign against terrorism, only with the idiotic and counter productive way that your administration insists on conducting it. That global terrorism has actually increased massively since Bush declared war on it underlines this point.
Originally posted by Shuckins
The French will only support the Israeli cause when they reap some financial benefit from it.
If that's a veiled reference to the so-called oil for food scandal, I guess you missed the part where it was revealed that US interests were getting more lucre than the French, didn't you? The part where the United States Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations found that 52% of all oil for food kickbacks were paid to US interests or individuals? Yup, I guess you missed it.
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Nice post Momus
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"they simply lack the moral clarity to agree that there is evil in the world,"
Amazing! More of this please!!!
:rofl
-C+
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Stuff and nonsense. Hezbollah isn't Nazi germany
I didn't say it was. I refuse to allow you to twist my words so you can take your feeble and tired stabs at insulting someone.
That you think a threat like this truly poses a threat of the level you are suggesting just demonstrates how little you understand it.
That you deduced I think they currently pose the same threat as Nazi Germany shows just how poor your command of my native tongue is. Go back to the North Pole, Rudolph. Your reindeer games don't fly here.
How many troops for a stablisation force has the USA offered?
This nicely skirts the real issue and again, I won't allow it. If we haven't offered troops it's likely that we'd like to see others stepping up to the plate inthe region and/or we know the arab nutjobs would decline our offer.
Hey Momus, are the Hezbollah terrorists?
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This should elevate some blood pressure a little...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ih7XYbC3Ec&mode=related&search=
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Here are some excerpts from an article by Scott Ritter (chief UN weapons inspector of Iraq 1991-1998):
"Contrary to popular opinion, Hezbollah is not an 'international terrorist organization.' It has not been linked to any acts of terror outside the borders of Lebanon (the current shelling of Israel notwithstanding, Hezbollah claims these are legitimate military actions in response to Israeli "aggression"). The United States and Israel often speak of "Hezbollah terror attacks" outside of Lebanon, but in the end cannot trace these attacks to Hezbollah with anything stronger than circumstance and rhetoric. The reality of Hezbollah is that it is a decidedly nationalistic organization that has gone on record condemning the September 2001 terror attacks against the United States, rejecting Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda, as well as any killing of innocent civilians in the name of Islam. If it were not for the Israeli angle, the irony is that Hezbollah actually represents the kind of home-grown political party that the United States should be supporting."
"Hezbollah is very much a political reality. It is woven into the daily reality of the lives of Lebanese Shi'a, providing medical and education support to impoverished civilians who otherwise would have to go without. Hezbollah has participated in the legitimate political processes of the Lebanese democracy, winning over a dozen seats in the Lebanese Parliament, and holding several cabinet-level positions. The Lebanese government itself recognizes the unique character of Hezbollah, rejecting any notion that it is an illegitimate militia, but rather a legitimate national resistance movement that will continue to exist until Israel stops meddling in Lebanese affairs."
cont'd
"So long as the American media collectively continues to masquerade as journalists, when in fact it serves as little more than the propagandistic arm of the U.S. and Israeli governments, the American people will continue to wallow in their collective ignorance of the world they live in, unable to discern solutions to problems because they are for the most part unable to define the problem itself. This is a very serious matter, one with huge potential consequences.
Take, in closing, the manner in which Israel and the United States have painted Hezbollah's military underwriters in Iran and Syria. If Hezbollah resistance continues (as it seems likely to do), the United States and Israel have stated that Syria and Iran become, by extension, legitimate military targets.
This discussion is offered without any thought or recognition of the "other side of the coin," namely the mindset in much of the Arab and Muslim world that if Iran and Syria are targeted for providing military support for Hezbollah, then the No. 1 underwriter for the ongoing Israeli slaughter of Lebanese, the United States, likewise becomes a legitimate military target."
Full article: Link (http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/40033/)
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hmmm... no caps lock attack yet, tic tic tic...
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7- Members should remember this board is aimed at a general audience. Posting pornographic or generally offensive text, images, links, etc. will not be tolerated. This includes attempts to bypass the profanity filter.
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Originally posted by Momus--
France arguably has a record of fighting Islamic terrorism better than that the USA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_8969
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_bombings_in_France
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaled_Kelkal
When France and Spain would not allow airspace fly through for Operation El Dorado Canyon. This was in direct response to the Rome and Vienna airport bombings of Dec. 27, 1985 (if memory serves me) and the April 5th Disco bombing in Berlin. God forbid if we forget that over 50% of the French population APPROVED of the bombing of Libya. Let's not forget Chad either.
Fixed
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Originally posted by Momus--
Stuff and nonsense. Hezbollah isn't Nazi germany.
they would be if they could be - that's enough for me to see them wiped from the earth
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Other countries must begin to denounce Hezbollah and their activities before the Lebenonese government will feel supported enough to make a stand.
Unfortunately, until the Lebenonese government does denounce them this conflict will never end, instead it will be marked by brief cease-fires.
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Originally posted by Eagler
they would be if they could be - that's enough for me to see them wiped from the earth
right... good ole final solution style, eh?
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rolex... do you believe ritter? Even if you do... he says that the hez-ebola only terrorize in and around lebanon...
So... that makes em what? local terrorists? and that's ok?
Soo.. they only kidnap locals and fire rockets at their neighbors homes from the homes of civilians that they live amungst?
Hell.... the IRA wasn't terrorists by ritters defenition. And what is ritter really saying? that there are worse terrorists?
Are they not fundamenatlists that believe that the only solution is when there are no jews in the middle east? Do they not believe that "convert or die" is the only way?
Sounds like they are the cause of all of lebenons problems.
lazs
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About the only good french is a none french.
French Foreign Legion!!
;)
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But for the french and their Navy you'd still be a british colony.Read your own history.
I can't find in this thread where anyone says otherwise. The French were paid back in spades in American blood on French soil.
But for us, the French would be speaking German right now.
As for whats happening in Lebanon, the Israeli response was disproportionate to the crime,
So, if I move next door to you and kill one of your children will you kill one of mine only, knowing full well that I'm going to come back over soon and kill another one?
Should Israel launch a thousand randomly aimed missles into Lebanon's cities? This would be a proprtionate response.
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If it were not for the Israeli angle, the irony is that Hezbollah actually represents the kind of home-grown political party that the United States should be supporting."
Ya, blow up our marine barracks, kill 241 of our soldiers,... ya we really should support them.
You simply must be joking... no-one is this daft.
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What is worth bashing the french in this news?
They're not siding with Hezbollah as apparent from the news itself:
"In addition, the French have reportedly agreed with Arab demands that the Lebanese force be accompanied only by UNIFIL, with no international force to be deployed.
Syria, Iran and Hezbollah are pushing to take Lebanon's offer to deploy 15,000 forces into the embattled southern region along with UNIFIL forces to gain stability without an international force there after more than three weeks of intense fighting."
If it works, then what's the problem?
Israel has demanded forces to the south to prevent Hezbollah from launching rocket attacks against Israel. The last news I heard on this was that the Israeli government is considering the offer from the Lebanese government - which is the above quoted.
If Israelis accepts the offer, would that make them siding with Hezbollah too?
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hezbollah attacks not specific military targets or any infrastructure in israel that would lower israel`s ability to wage war on lebanon. their goal is to terrorize the general population by spreading fear. the north of israel is not getting destroyed....it is being terrorized. anyone debating wether hezbollah a terror organization or not has absolutelly no clue what he`s talking about.
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Originally posted by Fishu
What is worth bashing the french in this news?
They're not siding with Hezbollah as apparent from the news itself:
"In addition, the French have reportedly agreed with Arab demands that the Lebanese force be accompanied only by UNIFIL, with no international force to be deployed.
Syria, Iran and Hezbollah are pushing to take Lebanon's offer to deploy 15,000 forces into the embattled southern region along with UNIFIL forces to gain stability without an international force there after more than three weeks of intense fighting."
If it works, then what's the problem?
Israel has demanded forces to the south to prevent Hezbollah from launching rocket attacks against Israel. The last news I heard on this was that the Israeli government is considering the offer from the Lebanese government - which is the above quoted.
If Israelis accepts the offer, would that make them siding with Hezbollah too?
i`ve heard that they aggreed to calling also the toothfairy the eastern bunny and maybe even santa claus to accompany UNIFIL in their very productive mission.
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If hezbollah isn't a terrorist organization, then that provides even more legitimacy to Israel fighting back against attacks against Israeli cities and citizens. If Hezbollah is a "legit" organization, then that legit organization is facing the understandable consequences of lobbing unguided weapons into random population centers.
So, which is it? Is Israel attacking a terrorist organization that cannot be controlled by a legitimate lebanese government, or is Israel attacking a legtimate organization that has been carrying out attacks against Israeli population centers? It seems like either way, it's a legitimate reaction to a lethal threat.
When a snake bites you in your own yard, you don't ask for it's opinion. You burn it out. If the snake bites you and retreats to a nest in your neighbors yard, and your neighbor refuses to burn out the snake, you still go in and burn out the snake.
The jackprettythang 3 doors down pledging to avenge the burned out snake is likely just a distraction, so ignore him unless he attacks. If he does, then he's just another snake to burn out.
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The French want Israel to withdraw from Lebanon and then the ceasefire begins. The French will then enforce the ceasefire with UNIFIL. Who in their right mind believes that even if Hezbollah stops firing it will last for more than a few days or weeks?
If the French want to dictate terms to Israel in this there should be some accountability involved. What will the French be required to do should someone violate the ceasefire? More of the same from the last 20 years won't cut it.
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Originally posted by lukster
Who in their right mind believes that even if Hezbollah stops firing it will last for more than a few days or weeks?
All the more reason for Israel to get back into the business against Hezbollah in Lebanon. Then nobody can say that Israel didn't give a (yet another) chance for peace.
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Originally posted by PonyDriver
But for us, the French would be speaking German right now.
It's Russian not German ! try to get it right damit !
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Originally posted by Fishu
All the more reason for Israel to get back into the business against Hezbollah in Lebanon. Then nobody can say that Israel didn't give a (yet another) chance for peace.
Exactly how many "chances for peace" do they have to give? Exactly how many Isreali citizens must die in terrorists attacks, during how many "cease fires", before it becomes apparent that "cease fires" don't result in peace?
Enough already, Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, and the rest of their ilk, DO NOT WANT PEACE, and in fact have stated their desired goal repeatedly, as have Syria and Iran.
If your neighbor says to you "I want you and your family dead, and your home destroyed", how many times do you let him try to blow up your home, or how many of your family do you allow him to slaughter, before you decide he means it?
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What is so hard to figure out?
Stop occupying Lebanon and they'll stop firing rockets.
Every time one country stops occupying or interfering in the affairs of another country, people stop attacking them. Works every time.
The same people who would resist with deadly force armed intruders trying to 'occupy' their house, land or their country are now in support of intruders over defenders? Now that is chutzpah.
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Originally posted by straffo
His post still have more values than the post of Neubob or AWMac
Now that hurts, straffo. I actually thought we'd come to some sort of consensus in the death to amreeka thread. I guess I was wrong.
PS, thanks for the stalk work. I didn't think anyone was noticing my Franco-bashing until now.
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Originally posted by Rolex
What is so hard to figure out?
Stop occupying Lebanon and they'll stop firing rockets.
Every time one country stops occupying or interfering in the affairs of another country, people stop attacking them. Works every time.
The same people who would resist with deadly force armed intruders trying to 'occupy' their house, land or their country are now in support of intruders over defenders? Now that is chutzpah.
What's so hard to figure out?
You've got to be kidding, right?
Israel is in Lebanon because Lebanon allowed Hezbollah to operate from their territory against Israel.
Comparing a citizen defending his home against a criminal intruder, to Hezbollah terrorists in Lebanon defending their territory after Hezbollah invaded Israel and kidnapped Israelis is total Bravo Sierra. More moral equivalence. What a joke.
Oh, and by the way, in case you forgot Israel left Lebanon quite a while back. Sort of odd how Hezbollah attacked Israel anyway, AFTER Israel left. Sort of blows your theory in your second and third sentences right to Hell. But then, you knew that already, didn't you.
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Israel ignored UNSC Resolution 425 since 1978 and never did completely withdraw. Tensions along the disputed 'blue line' continued daily with the UN confirming that the Israelis were breaching the border, not Lebanon or Hezbollah. Not to mention the Israeli re-routing of a river to deny Lebanon their share of shared water rights.
The analogy is valid. The Israeli soldiers were captured inside Lebanon. That pretty much settles who is the invader, doesn't it? I'll put it in bold since you like that:
The Israeli soldiers were captured inside LEBANON (L - E - B - A - N - O - N).
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geeez IDF acts like ruthless german soldiers on the east front. Just like the german order, Kill 1 of them and they kill 1000.
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Originally posted by Rolex
Israel ignored UNSC Resolution 425 since 1978 and never did completely withdraw. Tensions along the disputed 'blue line' continued daily with the UN confirming that the Israelis were breaching the border, not Lebanon or Hezbollah. Not to mention the Israeli re-routing of a river to deny Lebanon their share of shared water rights.
The analogy is valid. The Israeli soldiers were captured inside Lebanon. That pretty much settles who is the invader, doesn't it? I'll put it in bold since you like that:
The Israeli soldiers were captured inside LEBANON (L - E - B - A - N - O - N).
Since you brought in the UN.
"United Nations Security Council Resolution 1559 was a resolution adopted by the United Nations Security Council on September 2, 2004. It called upon Lebanon to establish its sovereignty over all of its land and called upon Syria to end its military presence in Lebanon by withdrawing its forces and to cease intervening in internal Lebanese politics. The resolution also called on all Lebanese militias to disband."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1559
That would make Hezbollah an outlawed renegade organization which has no legal right to be defending the borders of Lebanon.
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Originally posted by Neubob
Now that hurts, straffo. I actually thought we'd come to some sort of consensus in the death to amreeka thread. I guess I was wrong.
nope
PS, thanks for the stalk work. I didn't think anyone was noticing my Franco-bashing until now. [/B]
No one is more blind than someone who don't want to see.
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Originally posted by deSelys
Nice post Momus
ditto:aok
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Originally posted by lukster
Since you brought in the UN.
"United Nations Security Council Resolution 1559 was a resolution adopted by the United Nations Security Council on September 2, 2004. It called upon Lebanon to establish its sovereignty over all of its land and called upon Syria to end its military presence in Lebanon by withdrawing its forces and to cease intervening in internal Lebanese politics. The resolution also called on all Lebanese militias to disband."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1559
That would make Hezbollah an outlawed renegade organization which has no legal right to be defending the borders of Lebanon.
This is what you call the "Pwn Stick". Bravo!
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Originally posted by straffo
nope
No one is more blind than someone who don't want to see.
Truer words are rarely said. Unfortunately, the one saying them usually means them for another.
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As for whats happening in Lebanon, the Israeli response was disproportionate to the crime
The Israeli response was intentionally disproportionate to the crime in an effort to stop the cycle of attacks by Hizbollah and the subsequent Israeli reprisals.
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Originally posted by Rolex
Israel ignored UNSC Resolution 425 since 1978 and never did completely withdraw. Tensions along the disputed 'blue line' continued daily with the UN confirming that the Israelis were breaching the border, not Lebanon or Hezbollah. Not to mention the Israeli re-routing of a river to deny Lebanon their share of shared water rights.
The analogy is valid. The Israeli soldiers were captured inside Lebanon. That pretty much settles who is the invader, doesn't it? I'll put it in bold since you like that:
The Israeli soldiers were captured inside LEBANON (L - E - B - A - N - O - N).
wow, what have you been smoking?
Israel withdrew from Lebanon in summer 2000 and UN officials marked the blue line declaring that Israel has fully retreated from Lebanon. Shab'a farms claimed to be Lebanese were marked on the Israeli side BY THE UN.
Find me those UN reports of Israli forces breaching the border. I can find you a few where Hizballa has breached the border or fired at Israeli troops on the ISraeli side.
Re-routing a river ?! you don't know anything you talk about do you. The direction of flow in this region is from north to south (from Lebanon to Israel). Unless water start flowing up hill Israel canot prevent water from Lebanon - it's the other way around. Israel has made some noise about the Lebanese drawing water that flow to Israel and to the sea of Galili.
Israeli soldiers were not captured inside Lebanon. You can see from the photos of the burnt patrol vehicles that they were on the patrol road on the Israeli side of the border. I don't know of a single source that claim otherwise, not even Hizballa.
I feel sorry for you man.
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Perhaps Rolex was thinking of the Golan or the Jodan river ?
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"This is what you call the "Pwn Stick". Bravo!"
I would call that a sign of disturbing simplification. But if that makes it more easy for you to understand it then it's fine. :)
-C+
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So, your position is that people have no right to have a militia defend the borders of their nation from constant armed invasion by a country that illegally occupied it for over 20 years.
An illegal militia captured soldiers illegally invading its country.
Got it. ;)
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Originally posted by Rolex
So, your position is that people have no right to have a militia defend the borders of their nation from constant armed invasion by country that illegally occupied it for over 20 years.
An illegal militia captured soldiers illegally invading its country.
Got it. ;)
Not necessarily my position but it is that of the UN which you brought in as the "authority" in this matter.
My desire is for Israel to completely destroy Hezbollah doing whatever it takes. Hezbollah is the self proclaimed enemy of Israel and the US and they have acted on that proclamation several times. If the lebanese people get in the way I have regrets and some sympathy for the innocents, but not a lot.
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Israel ignored UNSC Resolution 425 since 1978 and never did completely withdraw.
LIE
The Israeli soldiers were captured inside Lebanon.
LIE
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So, your position is that is okay for a country to have an armed militia and capture foreign soldiers invading?
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Originally posted by Rolex
So, your position is that is okay for a country to have an armed militia and capture foreign soldiers invading?
Read my edit for your answer if you are addressing me.
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Originally posted by Rolex
Here are some excerpts from an article by Scott Ritter (chief UN weapons inspector of Iraq 1991-1998):
"Contrary to popular opinion, Hezbollah is not an 'international terrorist organization.' It has not been linked to any acts of terror outside the borders of Lebanon (the current shelling of Israel notwithstanding, Hezbollah claims these are legitimate military actions in response to Israeli "aggression").
Hizballa was linked to the bombings of Israeli embassy and Jewish center in Argentina. It was done in response to the killing of Mussawi, Nasralla's predecessor, but that's still international and terrorism.
The reality of Hezbollah is that it is a decidedly nationalistic organization that has gone on record condemning the September 2001 terror attacks against the United States, rejecting Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda, as well as any killing of innocent civilians in the name of Islam.
Hizballa and El Qaeda hate each other. The former represent the extreme Shia of Iranian origin while the latter represent the extreme Suni of Saudi origin. Most local arab states oppose Hizballa as they are mostly Suni and do not want Iranian influence in the region. Suni and Shii were busy fighting each other long before the state of Israel and after it.
Hezbollah has participated in the legitimate political processes of the Lebanese democracy, winning over a dozen seats in the Lebanese Parliament, and holding several cabinet-level positions. The Lebanese government itself recognizes the unique character of Hezbollah, rejecting any notion that it is an illegitimate militia, but rather a legitimate national resistance movement that will continue to exist until Israel stops meddling in Lebanese affairs."
That's why Israel has full legitimacy in attacking Lebanon. If a branch of the goverment and a political party attack Israel it means a decleration of war by the state of Lebanon on Israel.
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Originally posted by Rolex
So, your position is that people have no right to have a militia defend the borders of their nation from constant armed invasion by a country that illegally occupied it for over 20 years.
An illegal militia captured soldiers illegally invading its country.
Got it. ;)
According to international law, Israel gained control of those lands in the process of defending itself from aggressors who attacked Israel in an illegal act of war. As such, so long as no actual peace treaty between ALL parties is signed, Israel is in fact NOT required to return those lands, and is in fact acting properly according to international law. Those attacking Israel are the ones acting illegally. Only Egypt and Jordan signed actual peace treaties. Cease fires are NOT peace treaties, and are in fact considered by international law to be temporary interruptions in hostilities. Study harder.
The ones conducting illegal acts are Syria, Iran, Hezbollah (and the rest of the terrorists), and Lebanon itself (by allowing Hezbollah and other terrorists to operate from their lands). Try again. You're not getting anywhere.
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Thank you rolex for tacitly admitting one of the things I have stated repeatedly. There is no seperation between hezbolla and lebanon. They are now one and the same. You claim they are a militia "defending" lebanon. The media treats them like a seperate force that lebanon is unable to control. I look at the fact that the lebanese PM is trying to negotiate as the agent of hezbollah and implies that he has the authority to do so. Apparently hezbollah agrees as there has been nothing from the organization that I have seen that says they object to the lebonese PM negotiating for them and will not abide by whatever agreement he makes.
Since this makes lebanon and hezbollah one and the same I don't see where they have a damn thing to say about the Isreali's hitting targets inside lebanon whne their "militia" as you called it is randomly rocketing civilian areas of Isreal.
I see the UN situation is only used when it serves your agenda and not when it is regarding the shebaa farms.
Frankly, I think the un should depend on someone other than the US for troops in the middle East and in some other areas. It's time france and some other countries took up the slack and started doing more for global efforts. There wasn't very much support when the US called for the un resolutions to be upheld in iraq, so clean up the mess in lebanon on your own then.
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"According to international law, Israel gained control of those lands in the process of defending itself from aggressors who attacked Israel in an illegal act of war. As such, so long as no actual peace treaty between ALL parties is signed, Israel is in fact NOT required to return those lands, and is in fact acting properly according to international law. Those attacking Israel are the ones acting illegally. Only Egypt and Jordan signed actual peace treaties. Cease fires are NOT peace treaties, and are in fact considered by international law to be temporary interruptions in hostilities."
Interesting. Any links to sources of international law?
-C+
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Originally posted by Saintaw
right... good ole final solution style, eh?
you see any other permanent solution?
kill the jews maybe? there are less of them after all ...
Israel - good luck with your quest
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Originally posted by Rolex
What is so hard to figure out?
Stop occupying Lebanon and they'll stop firing rockets.
Yes, they would cause the rockets to stop, the suicide bombers to stop coming over the border, and Iran/Syria/etc will happily stop arming militias in another country to do their bidding.
LINK (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/naive)
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Originally posted by Eagler
you see any other permanent solution?
kill the jews maybe? there are less of them after all ...
Israel - good luck with your quest
Wow, a open support of genocide.
You can be happy I'm not a moderator, you would be PNG otherwise.
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Originally posted by straffo
No one is more blind than someone who don't want to see.
What, Straffo, is it that makes your points of view more enlightened?
The fact that you're niether Jewish nor Arab(a huge assumption, I admit) might lend you some objectivity. On the other hand it may just make you sufficiently indifferent. When it becomes an 'us against them' scenario, the arguments of the other side tend to dissolve against the overwhleming tide of self-preservation. Unfortunately, it's always been us against them, and after a couple thousand years of it, even you might stop caring about that other side thinks, or how it suffers.
You can sit on the sidelines and referee all you want, but so long as I have friends and family in harms way, I will not allow this war of ideology to turn into some sort of philosophical excercise. If this is a situation where one side must win, and the other, by default, must persish forever, then I know who I want to win. If both can live and let live, then I'm all for it.
You can resume your epithets now.
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Originally posted by straffo
Wow, a open support of genocide.
You can be happy I'm not a moderator, you would be PNG otherwise.
how do you deal with a mad dog? we put them down over here - maybe you send them to therapy over there...
I do not support genocide only the total removal of ones enemies and those who support them
I just wish it was as simple as Rolex seems to think it is ..
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Originally posted by Rolex
This should elevate some blood pressure a little...
[The reality of Hezbollah is that it is a decidedly nationalistic organization that has gone on record condemning the September 2001 terror attacks against the United States, rejecting Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda, as well as any killing of innocent civilians in the name of Islam.
So firing hundreds of rockets at Israeli cities doesn't count toward killing innocent civilians? Must not. After all, they're Jewish, right?
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Originally posted by Neubob
What, Straffo, is it that makes your points of view more enlightened?
My POV has the same values as the other, I'm just a different voice.
The purpose of a forum is to share ,discuss and think ,I'm just trying to do my best.
I changed my opinion on lot of things (for example how I pictured the average american before being involved in AH) and still will change it (born idio I'll try to die less idiot).
The fact that you're niether Jewish nor Arab(a huge assumption, I admit) [/B]
yep, as I'm quite unsure to not being part jew myself.
might lend you some objectivity. [/B]
the day I pretend to be objective ... please kill me.
On the other hand it may just make you sufficiently indifferent. [/B]
I'm not indifferent ,otherwise I won't be reading or posting at all.
When it becomes an 'us against them' scenario, the arguments of the other side tend to dissolve against the overwhleming tide of self-preservation. Unfortunately, it's always been us against them, and after a couple thousand years of it, even you might stop caring about that other side thinks, or how it suffers.[/B]
All can change Germany and my country can proove it (even if I admit the real enemy is still UK :D)
You can sit on the sidelines and referee all you want, but so long as I have friends and family in harms way, I will not allow this war of ideology to turn into some sort of philosophical excercise. If this is a situation where one side must win, and the other, by default, must persish forever, then I know who I want to win. If both can live and let live, then I'm all for it.[/B]
Having to much empathy for both side ,I can't take this position.
FYI one of my best friend is in tsahal right now and even if I fully support him and his familly I still beleive I've the right to disagree with the action of his goverment and I've also lebanese friends.
What should I do ? suicide ?
Unfortunaly we don't have here people from the other side of the fence*,but for knowing both I weight them equal.
Both are good peoples unfortunalty there is allways bad apples.
You can resume your epithets now. [/B]
it was not my intent perhaps your initial post was harsh for people not thinking like you,don't you think ?
@eagler: thank for clearing it but it's not my position,I don't compare human to animals
*not the fanatics ,obviously
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I am neither Israeli or Arab, Jew or Muslim.
Answer these two questions (to yourself if you want)...
1.) If the Arabs laid down their arms, disbanded their terrorists camps and publicly stated the legitimacy of the political state of Israel would there be peace?
2.) If the Israelis laid down their arms and opened their borders would there be a second holocaust as their neighbors "pushed them into the sea"?
==============
I beleive yes to both, so the moral question is as clear as black and white to me, I reject the "shades-of-grey" mentality to issues of right and wrong.
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Originally posted by Edbert1
I am neither Israeli or Arab, Jew or Muslim.
Answer these two questions (to yourself if you want)...
1.) If the Arabs laid down their arms, disbanded their terrorists camps and publicly stated the legitimacy of the political state of Israel would there be peace?
2.) If the Israelis laid down their arms and opened their borders would there be a second holocaust as their neighbors "pushed them into the sea"?
==============
I beleive yes to both, so the moral question is as clear as black and white to me, I reject the "shades-of-grey" mentality to issues of right and wrong.
Spot on Edbert.
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Originally posted by Elfie
Spot on Edbert.
The only problem is that point #1 would never happen-- there are MILLIONS of people over there who are taught from toddler age to wipe every Jew off the face of the earth, and that Allah supports them in this quest.
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Originally posted by bj229r
The only problem is that point #1 would never happen-- there are MILLIONS of people over there who are taught from toddler age to wipe every Jew off the face of the earth, and that Allah supports them in this quest.
I realize that. That's why we wont see peace in the Middle East.
Side A wants peace, Side B only wants the complete destruction of Side A. That's why I cant understand why people harp on Side A's every response to Side B.
If folks would try to put themselves in Israel's shoes, and try to imagine their country in Israel's position, I think alot of attitudes on this BBS and around the world would change.
I personally dont know of any American that would be willing to put up with attacks from Mexico or Canada for very long before demanding the American military put a stop to the attacks.
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Originally posted by bj229r
The only problem is that point #1 would never happen--
Oh, I quite agree, it was merely an exercise used to illustrate the glaringly obvious difference between the combatants.
#2 will never happen either.
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Originally posted by Edbert1
Oh, I quite agree, it was merely an exercise used to illustrate the glaringly obvious difference between the combatants.
#2 will never happen either.
#2 would have a chance if #1 ever happened. It wont though =/
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Originally posted by bj229r
The only problem is that point #1 would never happen-- there are MILLIONS of people over there who are taught from toddler age to wipe every Jew off the face of the earth, and that Allah supports them in this quest.
Where do people like you get ideas like that? You must be completely brain-washed. Riddle me this: Where do you think the largest Jewish community in the Middle-East outside Israel is?
Iran, with 25 thousand Jews living in the capital Tehran alone.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8a/Khatami_Jewish.jpg)
Former Iranian president Khatami visits a Tehran Jewish center.
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Originally posted by Infidel
Where do people like you get ideas like that? You must be completely brain-washed. Riddle me this: Where do you think the largest Jewish community in the Middle-East outside Israel is?
Iran, with 25 thousand Jews living in the capital Tehran alone.
Former Iranian president Khatami visits a Tehran Jewish center.
Is that the same Iran that was looking to have everyone wear identifying clothing a few months ago?
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No. That Iran exists only in your head.
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Originally posted by Infidel
No. That Iran exists only in your head.
Really? I was aware that Iran denied the Canadian report that non-muslims would have to wear badges but will non-muslims be allowed to wear the muslim dress?
"The parliament is currently debating a dress code for Muslims "to preserve and strengthen Iranian-Islamic culture and identity, consolidate and promote national clothing designs and guide the manufacturing and marketing of clothes, on the basis of domestic forms and designs, as well as to encourage the public to refrain from choosing and spending on foreign designs not appropriate to the Iranian culture and identity.""
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=50304
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I take it you would not trust an Arab source, so here’s a Jewish one:
“Representative of Iran’s 25,000 Jews in the nation’s parliament, Maurice Motamed, the only Jewish MP there, told the western press that the report dealt a severe blow to the Jewish image in Iran. “I was there when they discussed the law, and it was about the dress of Iranian Muslim women. Restrictions for minority or other religions were not mentioned,” Motamed said.”
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3252934,00.html
Again, you’re brain-washed.
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Originally posted by Infidel
Again, you’re brain-washed.
Maybe he was just reading a different source?
Doesn't make him brain washed.
I don't think anyway.
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Originally posted by Infidel
I take it you would not trust an Arab source, so here’s a Jewish one:
“Representative of Iran’s 25,000 Jews in the nation’s parliament, Maurice Motamed, the only Jewish MP there, told the western press that the report dealt a severe blow to the Jewish image in Iran. “I was there when they discussed the law, and it was about the dress of Iranian Muslim women. Restrictions for minority or other religions were not mentioned,” Motamed said.”
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3252934,00.html
Again, you’re brain-washed.
What I've read and posted the link for says nothing about this "dress code" being for women only. Are you saying there is no validity in the article I linked? I find that those who are quick to accuse others of being brain washed usually suffer the same.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Thank you rolex for tacitly admitting one of the things I have stated repeatedly. There is no seperation between hezbolla and lebanon. They are now one and the same. You claim they are a militia "defending" lebanon. The media treats them like a seperate force that lebanon is unable to control. I look at the fact that the lebanese PM is trying to negotiate as the agent of hezbollah and implies that he has the authority to do so. Apparently hezbollah agrees as there has been nothing from the organization that I have seen that says they object to the lebonese PM negotiating for them and will not abide by whatever agreement he makes.
Since this makes lebanon and hezbollah one and the same I don't see where they have a damn thing to say about the Isreali's hitting targets inside lebanon whne their "militia" as you called it is randomly rocketing civilian areas of Isreal.
I see the UN situation is only used when it serves your agenda and not when it is regarding the shebaa farms.
Frankly, I think the un should depend on someone other than the US for troops in the middle East and in some other areas. It's time france and some other countries took up the slack and started doing more for global efforts. There wasn't very much support when the US called for the un resolutions to be upheld in iraq, so clean up the mess in lebanon on your own then.
Mav,
I don't think anyone has ever said Hezbollah and Lebanon are separate. They and Lebanon say they are a militia, not me. The only agenda I have, Mav, is that there are two sides to every story. I have said over and over on many topics that understanding both sides is the only way to find possiblities of realistic solutions. Israeli politicians, hezbollah leaders and Lebanese politicians are all responsible. No party is blameless.
Other than packing up Israel and moving it to South America or Texas, I don't see any long-term peaceful solution. No foreign intervention is going to solve anything, it just exacerbates and creates proxies for the problem, because the root cause is never addressed.
Before Israel was created, all the land belonged to someone else. That is what it all distills down to.
The French and the US both left Lebanon after the bombing of their respective barracks. I'll bet over half of the people here don't realize that 58 French soldiers were killed in an attack occuring almost simultaneously to the attack on the Marine barracks in 1983.
Reagan figured it out - get out of Lebanon and no Americans would be killed or hurt there since their presence was only aggravating the situation and not contributing anything toward a solution. The old, "Tell me again why we are there?" trick. We figured it out in Vietnam also, eventually.
I would say it's another case of the US media winding up Americans to fever pitch about something they have no stake in.
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Before Israel was created, all the land belonged to someone else. That is what it all distills down to.
[/b]
3,000 - 2,000 BC
Early Bronze Age. Arrival and settlement of the Canaanites (3,000 - 2,500 BC)
ca. 1,250 BC
Israelite conquest of Canaan.
Unless the Canaanites show up, it looks like the Israelites have the oldest claim on the area of Palestine.
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U g0ing 2 giv teh land to teh 1njuns!???! :mad:
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Dunno Thrawn.... are you Canuks going to give all the land back to the Indians?
If you do, we might.
But don't let the simple point escape you: Pretty much all the land of every country belonged to 'someone else' at one time or another.
Where do we draw the line?
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Stop making sense Toad, might get the wackos panties more in a bunch.
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4- Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users and HTC. Flaming or abusing users is not tolerated.
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Unless the Canaanites show up, it looks like the Israelites have the oldest claim on the area of Palestine.
Thats not likely to happen though since the ancient Israelites pretty much wiped out the Canaanites.
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Originally posted by Infidel
I take it you would not trust an Arab source, so here’s a Jewish one:
“Representative of Iran’s 25,000 Jews in the nation’s parliament, Maurice Motamed, the only Jewish MP there, told the western press that the report dealt a severe blow to the Jewish image in Iran. “I was there when they discussed the law, and it was about the dress of Iranian Muslim women. Restrictions for minority or other religions were not mentioned,” Motamed said.”
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3252934,00.html
Again, you’re brain-washed.
Welcome back Staga. :lol
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Welcome back Staga. :lol
I was away for too long. Difficult for me to guess who a shade account might be.
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Precedent:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi#Distinctive_clothing
http://www.irna.ir/en/news/view/line-24/0605206372115739.htm
http://www.juancole.com/2006/05/another-fraud-on-iran-no-legislation.html
Even wikipedia covers it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Iranian_sumptuary_law_controversy
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France? Support terrorist activities? NEVER!
(http://www.greenpeace.de/typo3temp/GB/08ff9357fa.jpg)
:mad:
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France sides with Hezbollah
Well now there is a real deal breaker. :)
One loud statement , from one person, with something over the level of janitor to the effect of..."Shut up!"
Next thing you would see would be the raising of the white flag and a press release to the tune of."OK."
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Rolex... what do you think the government of the U.S. would do if some of our "militia" groups started suicide bombing the mexicans and kidnapping their soldiers and then....
started firing rockets at mexico from the houses of border cities?
Say they did it because they called illegal aliens an invading force?
It wouldn't matter... the U.S. army and forces would come down on the militia like a ton of bricks and be paying mexico billions in reparations...
the whole time assuring mexico that we were controling the problem.
This is not happening in lebenon.
The jews have no choice that I can see. If the hez-ebola are "militia" and the lebonese aren't stopping them from attacking neighbors then... the entire country of lebenon is a terrorist nation or...
at the very least.. a country at war with it's neighbor.
It really is that simple.. The solution however, is not so simple I would think.
lazs
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momus,,, gone.... owned.
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Originally posted by lazs2
Rolex... what do you think the government of the U.S. would do if some of our "militia" groups started suicide bombing the mexicans and kidnapping their soldiers and then....
started firing rockets at mexico from the houses of border cities?
Say they did it because they called illegal aliens an invading force?
It wouldn't matter... the U.S. army and forces would come down on the militia like a ton of bricks and be paying mexico billions in reparations...
the whole time assuring mexico that we were controling the problem.
This is not happening in lebenon.
The jews have no choice that I can see. If the hez-ebola are "militia" and the lebonese aren't stopping them from attacking neighbors then... the entire country of lebenon is a terrorist nation or...
at the very least.. a country at war with it's neighbor.
It really is that simple.. The solution however, is not so simple I would think.
lazs
1. You don’t ‘kidnap’ soldiers in a border skirmish. Unless you are picking them up on the streets of Europe like your CIA ineptly tries to do, it’s called ‘capturing’ an enemy soldier.
2. I understand that many Americans believe the territory in question was taken from Lebanon during the 6 day war or Yom Kippur or some sort of aggressive war against Israel. This is false. The territory in the south was illegally invaded and occupied by Israel in 1982 in response to an assassination attempt by the PLO on an Israeli ambassador. In 1985 Hezbollah was formed to resist the illegal occupation of South Lebanon in a time where Lebanon was in civil war.
3. Israel is claiming the border skirmish happened on their side of the border, and Hezbollah claims the opposite. They BOTH think they are right because there is no clear line of border anymore, just a no-man’s land. In the last 20 years of Israeli occupation the Israelis have ‘captured’ hundreds of Hezbollah soldiers in border skirmishes.
4. In the last 8 years Hezbollah has not fired a single rocket or shell at Israel, or attacked Israel in any other way. Now Hezbollah only started shelling Israel AFTER the IAF started bombing Lebanon.
5. It is not Lebanon that is attacking Israel, it is Israel invading Lebanon. Again.
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Originally posted by Infidel
5. It is not Lebanon that is attacking Israel, it is Israel invading Lebanon. Again.
I think a more appropriate nom de guerre for this account of yours would be "Holy Warrior", Infidel doesn't seem to fit.
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Originally posted by Infidel
4. In the last 8 years Hezbollah has not fired a single rocket or shell at Israel, or attacked Israel in any other way. Now Hezbollah only started shelling Israel AFTER the IAF started bombing Lebanon.
DUDE!!!!
YOU NEED TO PUT DOWN THAT GLASS PIPE!!!!
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Originally posted by lukster
I think a more appropriate nom de guerre for this account of yours would be "Holy Warrior", Infidel doesn't seem to fit.
Since I'm a christian Lebanese the term fits pretty well.
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Originally posted by Infidel
Since I'm a christian Lebanese the term fits pretty well.
Not really. Chrsitians are considered to be "people of the book", not infidels.
I'll concede the point, the argument being that jews and christians have lost much of the respect their faiths once garnered for them among muslims.
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
DUDE!!!!
YOU NEED TO PUT DOWN THAT GLASS PIPE!!!!
Hamas has been shelling Israel from Palestine. Hezbollah has not fired a rocket or shell since the late 1990's.
An Israeli patrol and a Hezbollah patrol fought at the border and Hezbollah won, capturing two Israeli soldiers. The IAF started bombing roads and known Hezbollah strongholds in south Lebanon, while IDF made incursions into Lebanon to try and free the captured soldiers. After numerous civilian casualties in Lebanon the Hezbollah retaliated by firing rockets at Israel.
Please tell me where I’m wrong.
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Originally posted by lukster
Not really. Chrsitians are considered to be "people of the book", not infidels.
I am ‘kafir’, a ‘non-muslim’. This word is usually translated to ‘infidel’ in English.
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Originally posted by Infidel
I am ‘kafir’, a ‘non-muslim’. This word is usually translated to ‘infidel’ in English.
Please see my edit on previous page.
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So, what do you think of this Infidel? Is it true?
“Hezbollah came to Ain Ebel to shoot its rockets,” said Fayad Hanna Amar, a young Christian man, referring to his village. “They are shooting from between our houses.”
http://www.bigpharaoh.com/2006/07/30/christian-infidels-hezbollah-shooting-from-between-our-houses/
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Ok. :)
In Lebanon we are all brothers. We used to cut each others heads off, but we got tired of it. I only hope the Israelis tire of it soon before they destroy my country. Again.
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Originally posted by lukster
So, what do you think of this Infidel? Is it true?
“Hezbollah came to Ain Ebel to shoot its rockets,” said Fayad Hanna Amar, a young Christian man, referring to his village. “They are shooting from between our houses.”
http://www.bigpharaoh.com/2006/07/30/christian-infidels-hezbollah-shooting-from-between-our-houses/
I don’t know if that story is true or not, but Hezbollah knows how to fight dirty (they have to) so I don’t find it unlikely for it to be true.
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Originally posted by Infidel
Hamas has been shelling Israel from Palestine. Hezbollah has not fired a rocket or shell since the late 1990's.
An Israeli patrol and a Hezbollah patrol fought at the border and Hezbollah won, capturing two Israeli soldiers. The IAF started bombing roads and known Hezbollah strongholds in south Lebanon, while IDF made incursions into Lebanon to try and free the captured soldiers. After numerous civilian casualties in Lebanon the Hezbollah retaliated by firing rockets at Israel.
Please tell me where I’m wrong.
hezbollah was fireing mortars and katyushas into israel every now and than, than israel would bomb hezbollah positions near the border. these kind of skirmishes had been going on for years. i`ve even heard and saw jets going that way when i lived in north israel,than i`d see on the news what happened. these small news wouldn`t make it on cnn.
what u see on your hezbollah controlled tv just isn`t what`s really going on. i`d advise u and your fellow lebanese to get your country in order and rid yourselves of hezbollah and similar scum. israelis would be happy to live in peace with you,open our borders for travel and trade. you would benefit greatly from that. WE DON`T WANT OUR SOLDIERS DYING IN LEBANON!!!
WE DON`T WANT TO KILL YOU AND DESTROY YOUR COUNTRY!!!
but as of now we are sadly left with no other choice:(
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Welcome back Staga. :lol
Staga's English was way worse. Plus, his posts actually gave off a stench.
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I find my news in the internet these days. The tv cannot be trusted. I think it is the same everywhere. These Americans certainly don’t trust their tv news.
I hope you’re right Caligula. Peace must come before everything is lost. If Hezbollah is destroyed in the process, so be it. They have been obsolete since the Israeli withdrawal. Unfortunately many people might think otherwise if your army invades us again.
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Originally posted by Infidel
I find my news in the internet these days. The tv cannot be trusted. I think it is the same everywhere. These Americans certainly don’t trust their tv news.
I hope you’re right Caligula. Peace must come before everything is lost. If Hezbollah is destroyed in the process, so be it. They have been obsolete since the Israeli withdrawal. Unfortunately many people might think otherwise if your army invades us again.
our army will be gone as soon as the treat to our ciizens and country is gone. i`m yet to talk with any israeli who`s happy about the IDF entering lebanon. we don`t want to be there, belive me.
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5- Flamebaiting, trolling, or posting to incite or annoy is not allowed.
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Originally posted by Infidel
Peace must come before everything is lost. If Hezbollah is destroyed in the process, so be it. They have been obsolete since the Israeli withdrawal.
For an obsolete group they sure do seem to be having their way.
You and your contrymen must take full responsibility for the existence of Hez-ebola in your country. You will all pay the price for harboring/funding/encouraging these subhuman diaper-heads...mark my words.
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5- Flamebaiting, trolling, or posting to incite or annoy is not allowed.
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Originally posted by Infidel
5- Flamebaiting, trolling, or posting to incite or annoy is not allowed.
That remark will make you very welcome here.:rofl
I'm sure someone will soon introduce you to Skuzzy.
I hope you're havINg fun.
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Originally posted by Infidel
5- Flamebaiting, trolling, or posting to incite or annoy is not allowed.
Damn, no wonder I always liked hot weather and devil's foodcake.
Sorry Infidel, but whatever legitimate argument you had becomes soured and ignored when you make such silly comments.
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If Infidel is who he claims to be (I remain skeptical) then his response is understandable considering the current situation. Let's cut him a little slack?
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7- Members should remember this board is aimed at a general audience. Posting pornographic or generally offensive text, images, links, etc. will not be tolerated. This includes attempts to bypass the profanity filter.
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Originally posted by lukster
If Infidel is who he claims to be (I remain skeptical) then his response is understandable considering the current situation. Let's cut him a little slack?
he should ask himself the question: what`s better? american made laser guided ammo,killing hezbollah and anyone silly enough to be around them, or israei made napalm killing everyone...
as of today this war cost us 5 billion shekels....napalm would be lot cheaper and more effective....so who`s evil once again?
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You guys sorta missed the slap Redradr put in his face..
Any of you would've bit at least as hard into that sorta provocation.
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6- Members are asked to not act as "back seat moderators". Issues with any breach of rules should be brought to HTC's attention via email at support@hitechcreations.com.
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Buh bye...I'd say it was nice knowing you but it was not.
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Originally posted by moot
You guys sorta missed the slap Redradr put in his face..
Any of you would've bit at least as hard into that sorta provocation.
Tell ya what. When the vast majority of Lebanon turns their back on Hezbollah, and starts pointing them out to the Israelis, then I'll worry about their feelings. Right now, they're aiding and abetting Hezbollah. Makes them guilty of harboring and aiding terrorism. I'm a little short on tolerance for that particular criminal act these days.
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Originally posted by xrtoronto
'Redradr' should be PNG'd for the comment.
Don't mean to hijack, but until Skuzzy ties all accounts to game logins, he is going to have to baby sit all these shade posters.
Sorry Roy, but you have your work cut out for you and I do not envy you at all.
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Originally posted by xrtoronto
6- Members are asked to not act as "back seat moderators". Issues with any breach of rules should be brought to HTC's attention via email at support@hitechcreations.com.
Certainly no more than "infidel" should be for his response. Good for the goose? Good for the gander.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Certainly no more than "infidel" should be for his response. Good for the goose? Good for the gander.
not at all true Captain...
If someone said they "enjoyed the death and destruction" caused in NYC and Washington while it was happening on 9/11 and posted it somewhere...how would you respond to it? I myself would have answered it in much stronger language than did infadel. (and I'm not even American)
What Redradr said was unconscionable. It is the single worst thing I think I have read on this bbs in all my years.
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2. I understand that many Americans believe the territory in question was taken from Lebanon during the 6 day war or Yom Kippur or some sort of aggressive war against Israel. This is false. The territory in the south was illegally invaded and occupied by Israel in 1982 in response to an assassination attempt by the PLO on an Israeli ambassador. In 1985 Hezbollah was formed to resist the illegal occupation of South Lebanon in a time where Lebanon was in civil war.
3. Israel is claiming the border skirmish happened on their side of the border, and Hezbollah claims the opposite. They BOTH think they are right because there is no clear line of border anymore, just a no-man’s land. In the last 20 years of Israeli occupation the Israelis have ‘captured’ hundreds of Hezbollah soldiers in border skirmishes.
Point number 2: The attempted assassination attempt was only the straw that broke the camels back so to speak. Prior to that there were repeated artillery attacks by the PLO into northern Israel. If Israel is being attacked they have every right to invade to stop the attackers, nothing illegal about that imo.
Point number 3: Israel had the UN come in and define the border between Lebanon and Israel. When Israel pulled out of Lebanon the first time, they pulled back past the UN defined boundary.
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Originally posted by xrtoronto
6- Members are asked to not act as "back seat moderators". Issues with any breach of rules should be brought to HTC's attention via email at support@hitechcreations.com.
I didn't realize it was off, thanks. It's on now but I don't check that email account often. I'll switch back to that account once I get the email thing rearranged.
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Originally posted by Infidel
5- Flamebaiting, trolling, or posting to incite or annoy is not allowed.
Interesting how one's flawed logic eventually comes to the surface. You don't know ME enough to make this statement.
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So lukster = akiron?
Regarding redradr's comment...I took it to mean he's glad to see that someone is willing to confront the evil that has beset them rather than hide and "hope the mean man goes away" like so many naive folks do, or as the French and Lebanese populace do and actually take the side of the terrorists (the subject of the thread in the first place).
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My guess on the international force is that it's gonna be led by crack units from France and the Italians.. god help us all....
Thinnest book in the world anyone ?.... Italian book of war heros...:D
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Originally posted by Edbert1
So lukster = akiron?
Regarding redradr's comment...I took it to mean he's glad to see that someone is willing to confront the evil that has beset them rather than hide and "hope the mean man goes away" like so many naive folks do, or as the French and Lebanese populace do and actually take the side of the terrorists (the subject of the thread in the first place).
Yes, I was away from this board for about a year and a half. My akiron account was disabled (Skuzzy renabled after I mentioned it) so I used the first one I played the game with. Lukster was actually a friend who I played RB with on TSN, I don't he minded me using his name.
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Originally posted by Infidel
1. You don’t ‘kidnap’ soldiers in a border skirmish. Unless you are picking them up on the streets of Europe like your CIA ineptly tries to do, it’s called ‘capturing’ an enemy soldier.
Yes it would be apart from a small detail -
They were 'captured' for eventual use in a prisoner swap, so in effect are in fact HOSTIGES.
Capturing hostiges is AGAINST the Geneva Convention, but then again why should this surprise anyone from a group of thugs who break the Convention at every opportunity.
1) Blending in with the Civilian population.
2) Using civilians to hide weapons.
3) Using civilian areas to launch attacks.
4) Using protected structures to hide weapons caches.
Funny how one side is expected to abide by all rules of war while a blind eye is turned towards others.
These thugs aren't even subject to being classed as combatants -
1) Must have a clear chain of command
2) Must be distinguishable form the civilian populaiton
3) Must carry arms openly
4) Must abide by the laws of armed conflict
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Originally posted by Toad
Unless the Canaanites show up, it looks like the Israelites have the oldest claim on the area of Palestine. [/B]
Well... if we're going to go with oldest claims on an area, we may all have to move somewhere else. ;)
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Originally posted by xrtoronto
not at all true Captain...
If someone said they "enjoyed the death and destruction" caused in NYC and Washington while it was happening on 9/11 and posted it somewhere...how would you respond to it? I myself would have answered it in much stronger language than did infadel. (and I'm not even American)
What Redradr said was unconscionable. It is the single worst thing I think I have read on this bbs in all my years.
Aww,you'll get over it..
As for Infidel an them Lebneeze... dont start none, want be none.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Well... if we're going to go with oldest claims on an area, we may all have to move somewhere else. ;)
I'm just seeking knowledge.
As Rolex correctly posted,
Before Israel was created, all the land belonged to someone else. That is what it all distills down to.
I just want to know where we draw the line and say "OK, this land now belongs to... _________________"
Is it a date? Is it after all previous occupiers of the particular land have lived their lives and passed on? Do we have to wait until all their relatives pass on?
What's the determining factor?
Who really "owns" the land of the United States? Should we give it back to the Indians?
What's your standard?
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Originally posted by Sandman
Well... if we're going to go with oldest claims on an area, we may all have to move somewhere else. ;)
Exactly, none of us would have a place to live. That's what makes the Palestinian claims so rediculous imo.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Yes it would be apart from a small detail -
They were 'captured' for eventual use in a prisoner swap, so in effect are in fact HOSTIGES.
Capturing hostiges is AGAINST the Geneva Convention, but then again why should this surprise anyone from a group of thugs who break the Convention at every opportunity.
1) Blending in with the Civilian population.
2) Using civilians to hide weapons.
3) Using civilian areas to launch attacks.
4) Using protected structures to hide weapons caches.
Funny how one side is expected to abide by all rules of war while a blind eye is turned towards others.
These thugs aren't even subject to being classed as combatants -
1) Must have a clear chain of command
2) Must be distinguishable form the civilian populaiton
3) Must carry arms openly
4) Must abide by the laws of armed conflict
That is another thing that many people ignore/forget. It's a valid point imo.
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It's a good question, Toad. I would like to hear your opinion on it. I know you know there is no definitive answer, only opinions.
Here's mine - based on little else than my gut: I'd compare it to radioactive decay.
I'll just use the word 'occuption' in the general context of occupying land belonging to others.
I think there might be a half-life of 2 generations in the case of a benevolent occupation. The more oppressive the occupation, the longer the half-life of the isotope.
For example, the benevolent occupations of post WWII Germany and Japan relieved hardships and rebuilt infrastructure resulting in both nations becoming contributors to the world, yet we still see people hostile to their generational peers after 2 generations. I guess there will be half as many after 2 more generations. Just my guess.
The contrast in the two 20th century, post-war conditions placed on Germany might be a good example.
Could Israel be considered an extreme example of eminent domain?
Imagine the UN decided tomorrow that Native Americans will be given an area of land comprising portions of Washington D.C., Maryland and Virginia to form a homeland and nation. We could even throw in the mix that China will be its strategic umbrella and supply the new nations military. And the new Native American nation had a nuclear capability.
Call me a pessimist, but I think current residents of those areas, regardless of how many generations they had lived there, would be a little upset about it. Some would even resist with force. And people in other states would be outraged by seeing their 'bretheren' driven from their land and many would advocate driving the new nation into the sea.
And that ends my analogy to the middle east today. :)
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Israeli occupation of Lebanon and Gaza has been anything but benevolent. It systematically destroyed the economy of Lebanon. Beruit used to be a beautiful and vibrant city, economically and culturally. There are just as many Israelis who were/are just as intent in driving Lebanese and Palastinians into the sea as there are Lebanese and Palastinians intent on driving Israelis into the sea.
I believe the leaders of hezbollah and Israel are both unmotivated to peacefully co-exist.
Hezbollah's reason for existence would evaporate if Israel pulled back to the blue line and released long-held Lebanese prisoners. Israel would have nothing to lose by doing that, but Israel will never do that because its leadership wants to root out moderates who seek any form of Arab-Israeli relations.
Olmert and Nasrallah both depend on each other for probes, provocation and hostility to maintain support to their causes from the people they represent, and from outside countries who support them. There are no moderates leading any of the factions or nations.
Yes, Lebanese police and much of the non-western media say without question that Israeli soldiers were inside Lebanon on July 12th when hezbollah attacked them. As the battle went on, the Israelis retreated back into Israel and hezbollah pursued them across the border.
The Israelis and western media say the opposite. Your view is based on which media you see, not the facts, whatever they may be. Or is it even relevant if both leaders are itching for a fight?
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It's not just this incident that sparked this latest round of violence Rolex, it's a whole series of events since Israel withdrew from Lebanon the first time.
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For several decades now moderates on both sides of the Arab/Israeli conflict have been intimidated and marginalized.
Moderates were willing to work together to effect a reconciliation of their differences. But they've not been given the chance.
Radicals could have compromised and made room for the Israelis over there, but they would really rather not. Thousands of moderate Arabs have been murdered for daring to pursue peace.
As long as the Radicals continue to muck up the peace efforts over there there will be no peace.
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For several decades now moderates on both sides of the Arab/Israeli conflict have been intimidated and marginalized.
Can you site an instance or article where an Israeli moderator was either of these?
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I'm referring to the use of violence by radical islamic-fundamentalists to intimidate moderates on both sides and thereby subvert efforts to reach a peaceful resolution to the conflict.
What are YOU referring to?
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I don't know why some of you guys bother. When facts meet Neocon brainwashing it's no contest...
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The Key to the whole middle East and it's problems is a Palistinian state,without it this and other regional conflicts will go on ad-infinitum.
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What are YOU referring to?
I was just trying to get clarification on your statement, wanted to be sure I inderstood it correctly
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Originally posted by Rolex
It systematically destroyed the economy of Lebanon. Beruit used to be a beautiful and vibrant city, economically and culturally. There are just as many Israelis who were/are just as intent in driving Lebanese and Palastinians into the sea as there are Lebanese and Palastinians intent on driving Israelis into the sea.
...
Hezbollah's reason for existence would evaporate if Israel pulled back to the blue line and released long-held Lebanese prisoners.
...
Your view is based on which media you see, not the facts, whatever they may be.
ok Rolex, you either don't read what I wrote the previous page or you just ignore it.
Beirut was not destroyed by Israel, not in 1982 when it was destroyed by the civil war even before Israel reached it not today where only one neighborhood named Dahia in the south of the city was bombed. All the ruined buildinds you see in the news are from that neigborhood. Other residental parts of the city were not bombed.
Israel has no interest in "driving Lebanese into the sea". Israel has no teritorial claims from Lebanon and never had. Israel has an interest in keeping Lebanon independent and out of Syrian hands. I don't know where you got this idea from.
Let me explain something to you about the "blue line". That is the line marked by the UN when Israel pulled out of Lebanon in august 2000. This line certifies that Israel has withdrew completely from Lebanon. Israel has not violated this line since 2000, but Hizballa forces have crossed it several times and shot at Israeli forces on the Israeli side every 2-3 months in the past 6 years. So Israel already withdrew to the blue line.
Almost all Lebanese prisoners were released a few years ago in exchange for 3 soldier bodies (kidnapped by Hizballa from the Israeli side) and 1 kidnapped business man (that I wish they'd kept him). Currenlty there are 3 Lebanese held by Israel. Samir Kuntar was part of a terrorist group that in 1979 came ashore Naharia, took over a family home and murdered the father and a child. He was captured in Israel and sentensed to life. That is not a prisoner of war, nor a kidnapped. The other one is a woman who illegaly entered Israel, I guess she'd be released sooner or later anyway. I forgot who the 3rd one is.
My view is not based on the Media. I actually live in Israel, served in the army and still serve in reserve duty. In anything that has to do with the military or intelligence I know enough from 1st source or able to find out, without the "service" of the media.
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Hi bozon,
You're right, I didn't read your earlier post. I've reached the stage - not necessarily this topic only - where I scan the name and the first line because I know pretty much what they're going to say and how they're going to say it. Many don't know the difference between a discussion and an argument, or think their insults are clever, leaving a small number who actually have something interesting or informative to say.
Sorry, I'm afraid I scanned over yours, but I'll watch more carefully for your posts since I think you're sincere.
I think I said that the Lebanese economy was destroyed. I try to write precisely, but sometimes fail miserably, bozon. ;)
But, as far as Beruit, is the information below incorrect?
"Beirut suffered grievously between June 6, 1982, when Israeli troops first crossed the Lebanese border, and September 16, when they completed their seizure of West Beirut. Normal economic activity was brought to a standstill. Factories that had sprung up in the southern suburbs were damaged or destroyed, highways were torn up, and houses were ruined or pitted by artillery fire and rockets. Close to 40,000 homes--about one-fourth of all Beirut's dwellings--were destroyed. Eighty-five percent of all schools south of the city were damaged or destroyed. The protracted closure of Beirut's port and airport drastically affected commerce and industry." -- Federal Research Division of the U.S. Library of Congress
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And to the most recent campaign:
"In just two weeks of sustained Israeli attacks, the Lebanese economy has been knocked so far back it may never fully recover.
Gains from years of rebuilding have been wiped out in two weeks.
Almost all the war-torn country's bridges and 80% of its major roads have been crushed. Airports and ports, telecoms sites and TV towers, schools and hospitals have been bombed.
"The effect on the economy is going to be very, very drastic," says BLC Bank's chairman, Shadi Karam.
The damage to the country's infrastructure so far amounts to more than $1bn (£540m), economists estimate.
Yet the total cost could be much larger." Source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/5209502.stm)
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I do have a question if you have a chance to answer. I realize the entire circumstances of hezbollah's support by Iran and throughout the region is a complex web of interests, but, as an Israeli, why do you think Hezbollah has so much support among the people of Lebanon? Is it mostly from they being the ones trying to build hospitals, schools, deliver mail and such for the people, or is it philosophical, simple ethnic affiliation or other reasons?
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Originally posted by Hazzer
The Key to the whole middle East and it's problems is a Palistinian state,without it this and other regional conflicts will go on ad-infinitum.
Wrong answer. They've been offered their own state. They want that AND Israel, and the Israelis DEAD. How many times do they have to say that, and act on it, before people believe it. A hundred, a thousand, ten thousand, a MILLION?
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Originally posted by Rolex
You're right, I didn't read your earlier post. I've reached the stage - not necessarily this topic only - where I scan the name and the first line because I know pretty much what they're going to say and how they're going to say it. Many don't know the difference between a discussion and an argument, or think their insults are clever, leaving a small number who actually have something interesting or informative to say.
And you wonder why people respond to you in a manner you do not like. It shouldn't surprise anyone. And you ask why no one gives any consideration to what you write. You gave your own answer, clearly.
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Captn, IMHO you belong to those posters whom replies are very rarely constructive or interesting...
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Wrong answer. They've been offered their own state.
They were offered a state that was chopped up like a jigsaw puzzel with Israeli land between the pieces.
They want that AND Israel, and the Israelis DEAD. How many times do they have to say that, and act on it, before people believe it. A hundred, a thousand, ten thousand, a MILLION?
Who is this "They"? The majority of Palistinians would agree to a two state solution if it ment peace.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Who is this "They"? The majority of Palistinians would agree to a two state solution if it ment peace.
1948 seems like yesterday, eh?
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What is happening in Lebanon should shame the world.It's to easy for us over here to condemn when we don't have to pay the Butchers bill.
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Originally posted by Hazzer
What is happening in Lebanon should shame the world.It's to easy for us over here to condemn when we don't have to pay the Butchers bill.
So you're OK with what's going on in Haifa then.
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Oh an Kev 367th by your definition the whole resistance movement during wwII should have been locked up or executed after hostilities ceased,of course those unfortunate enough to be in the east were arrested and many executed by the russians using your criteria.Propaganda could turn the most upright citizen into a terrorist/freedom fighter -you decide-if we don't question are leaders and soak up propaganda like a sponge.
interestingly the british Goverment locked up the err resistance fighters on Jersey after the war on evidence of the german occupiers .
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No I'm not ok with whats going on in haifa.Jeez
I don't like seeing dead babies being put in plastic bags be they Jews or Muslims or any other religion for that matter! Happy now.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
And you wonder why people respond to you in a manner you do not like. It shouldn't surprise anyone. And you ask why no one gives any consideration to what you write. You gave your own answer, clearly.
That is a very bizarre thing to write. I didn't wonder or ask either of those things.
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Originally posted by Rolex
And that ends my analogy to the middle east today. :)
An interesting read but I didn't really get an answer.
Or is your answer that there is no standard? No determining factor? No place to clearly draw the line?
I think that's what you meant, or at least what I got out of your post.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
I will subsequently tell you my view.
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Originally posted by deSelys
Captn, IMHO you belong to those posters whom replies are very rarely constructive or interesting...
Spare me. IMHO? Yeah right, The "H" stands for Humble. Give me a break. The reason you declare it uninteresting and not constructive is you don't agree with it.
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Hi Toad,
You're right. I don't have a good answer. I don't even have a bad answer.
A wide DMZ across the 1948 line between Lebanon and Israel in the Korea model isn't workable since Lebanon isn't a totalitarian regime with people trying to escape and there are too many people with too many ties across the border to limit all travel.
I don't know of any lines that will work for Palestine-Israel-Jerusalem, even if we could go back in time to start again without 800,000+ refugees and erase the memories of almost two generations of people.
The entire process from the early 40s is like a Rube Goldberg machine, but without anything getting accomplished at the end.
I'm all ears though...
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There is no solution. At least not until the Muslims recognize Israel's right to exist and they stop the terror attacks on Israel.
Israel has already pulled out of the Sinai and taken the settlers with them. Same with the Gaza Strip. Israel pulled out of southern Lebanon once already as well. Terrorist attacks have continued after Israel pulled out of Lebanon (Hezbollah) and the Gaza Strip (Hamas).
Israel has shown *good faith* imo. Should they pull out of the West Bank also? Not yet imo. Not until the Muslims show some *good faith* also.
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Originally posted by Rolex
A wide DMZ across the 1948 line between Lebanon and Israel in the Korea model isn't workable since Lebanon isn't a totalitarian regime with people trying to escape and there are too many people with too many ties across the border to limit all travel.
That's not completely accurate. A coworker of mine has in-laws that live in Lebanon today. They've been trying for decades to get out and cannot get a Visa.
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Originally posted by Edbert1
That's not completely accurate. A coworker of mine has in-laws that live in Lebanon today. They've been trying for decades to get out and cannot get a Visa.
I would not know why they couldn't get a credit card.
A visa, however, is issued by the country of destination, not the country of origin. They are issued at a port of entry or the embassy of the destination country depending on the type of visa and conditions the destination country has set for the citizens of the origin country.
Are you working part-time after school? Good luck and it's good to see an industrious teenager.
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Who owns the land?
If one were to say the original inhabitants, then most countries would undergo major changes in political structure.
That isn't going to happen.
Land now belongs to those that have the oldest squatters rights and the power to back their claim for lack of a better explanation. It's why the Native Americans are not going to get the US or Canada back.
The Arabs aren't going to get Israel back because the Israelis have UN documents giving them the territory that is now Israel. They are squatting on that land and won't give it up. Israel may eventually pull entirely out of land added to the UN delineated territory by conquest but I think they'll hold some of that until they feel their security and nationhood are assured.
I wonder what the US and Canada would do if Native Americans started strapping on dynamite belts and blowing up pizza parlors full of squatters.
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Who owns the land?
1937 Peel Commission report on the British Mandate of Palestine
Chapter IX. - The Land
A summary of land legislation enacted during the Civil Administration shows the efforts made to fulfil the Mandatory obligation in this matter. The Commission point to serious difficulties in connection with the legislation proposed by the Palestine Government for the protection of small owners. The Palestine Order in Council and, if necessary, the Mandate should be amended to permit of legislation empowering the High Commissioner to prohibit the transfer of land in any stated area to Jews, so that the obligation to safeguard the right and position of the Arabs may be carried out. Until survey and settlement are complete, the Commission would welcome the prohibition of the sale of isolated and comparatively small plots of land to Jews. They would prefer larger schemes for the rearrangement of proprietorship under Government supervision. They favour the proposal for the creation of special Public Utility Companies to undertake such development schemes subject to certain conditions.
An expert Committee should be appointed to draw up a Land Code.
Recommendations are made with a view to the expediting of settlement (the need for which is paramount) and to the improvement of settlement procedure.
The present system of Land Courts is contributory to delay. Until survey and settlement are complete there should be two or three Land Courts separate from the District Courts and each under a single British Judge.
Up till now the Arab cultivator has benefited on the whole both from the work of the British Administration and the presence of Jews in the country, but the greatest care must now be exercised to see that in the event of further sales of land by Arabs to Jews the rights of any Arab tenants or cultivators are preserved. Thus, alienation of land should only be allowed where it is possible to replace extensive by intensive cultivation. In the hill districts there can be no expectation of finding accommodation for any large increase in the rural population. At present, and for many years to come, the Mandatory Power should not attempt to facilitate the close settlement of the Jews in the hill districts generally.
The shortage of land is due less to purchase by Jews than to the increase in the Arab population. The Arab claims that the Jews have obtained too large a proportion of good land cannot be maintained. Much of the land now carrying orange groves was sand dunes or swamps and uncultivated when it was bought.
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Seems to me that after Allenby conquered the Central Power allied Ottomans in the Middle East that during the decades of British Government in Palestine (1917-1948) Jewish land purchases were subject to British approval.
Peel Commission (http://www.mideastweb.org/peelmaps.htm)
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Originally posted by Toad
The Arabs aren't going to get Israel back because the Israelis have UN documents giving them the territory that is now Israel. They are squatting on that land and won't give it up. Israel may eventually pull entirely out of land added to the UN delineated territory by conquest but I think they'll hold some of that until they feel their security and nationhood are assured.
I agree with you Toad, except for the term conquest. Israel did not take that extra land by conquest, while the term may be debatable don't forget the wars that caused the borders to shift were not started by Israel (they pulled out of the Sinai, the only war Israel technically started). The term conquest, to me, indicates an offensive military operation, like Lebensraum, or Manifest Destiny (high sounding terms eh?). Israel was attacked, and captured territory as a result of the conflict to act as a buffer against future attacks. If we discount that methodology then when will the state of Prussia be reconsituted, or the Hopi Empire? I ask becuase they were truly gained through "conquest".
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Boycot Le French kiss.:furious
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Originally posted by Edbert1
I agree with you Toad, except for the term conquest. Israel did not take that extra land by conquest,
How about "force of arms"?
In any event, they took the territory by force and held/hold it by force.
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Islam is peace
and.."the French...there always there when they need us"
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Originally posted by Rolex
I think I said that the Lebanese economy was destroyed. I try to write precisely, but sometimes fail miserably, bozon. ;)
Yes, Lebanese economy suffered badly and so did Israeli economy. Both northern Israel and Lebanon are based heavily on tourism. You can guess how many tourists will come to the Galili or Beirut this or next year. Hizballa rockets have caused forest fires that burned very large portion of the forests in Northern Israel. Would you like a room with a view to the ashes? It will take years till it's green again.
In one of my first posts when the whole thing just began (another thread) I said I pity the Lebanese since their economy is about to be destroyed. They had nothing to gain from attacking Israel but still allowed Hizballa to do so. I don't see Lebanon as an enemy. If anything, they are the neighbor I wish for the best relations with. But they should not expect happy tourists on Beirut beach when tourists run away from the Galili. If finally they'll take responsibility for what is happening in their country, Israel and Lebanon can happily live side by side and contribute each other. South Lebanon people used to work in northern Israel and there's no reason we can't go back to that.
It all comes down to what Lebanese people and goverment are going to do in the next few weeks. If they truely act to end the Hizballa state within a state and secure their side of the border, this region can flourish again.
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I keep seeing the phraase a state within a state regarding hezbollah and Lebanon. At this point I am thinking that given Lebanon's inability to control their own borders and interior to keep a terrorist group from innitiating open conflict the phrase has been misconstrued. I think it's more like Lebanon is a state within hezballah. Watching the Lebanese PM doing the negotiating for hezbollah in the latest dust up just reinforces my opinion in that regard. I think hezbollah owns Lebanon at this time. They certainly have no qualms about using it as their own private playground, battlefield and propaganda generator with little if any regard for the Lebanese people.
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Originally posted by Maverick
I keep seeing the phraase a state within a state regarding hezbollah and Lebanon. At this point I am thinking that given Lebanon's inability to control their own borders and interior to keep a terrorist group from innitiating opne conflict the phrase has been misconstrued. I think it's more like Lebanon is a state within hezballah. Watching the Lebanese PM doing the negotiating for hezbollah in the latest dust up just reinforces my opinion in that regard. I think hezbollah owns Lebanon at this time. They certainly have no qualms about using it as their own private playground, battlefield and propaganda generator with little if any regard for the Lebanese people.
Ditto...across the board.
Looking again at the subject of this thread I'd say not just France but the UN, and the entire world sided with Hezbollah, including the whitehouse (and thus the USA) has handed a staggering defeat to the Israelis though this "cease fire" resolution. We owed it to our allies to hold the appeasers at bay while the IDF uuterly destroyed Hez-ebola below the Litani. Of course that assumes Israel had a leader with the desire to win, a subject I think is clear, Olmert blinked and for the next few years (possibly a decade) his people will pay the price for his weakness.
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Originally posted by Edbert1
We owed it to our allies to hold the appeasers at bay while the IDF uuterly destroyed Hez-ebola below the Litani. Of course that assumes Israel had a leader with the desire to win, a subject I think is clear, Olmert blinked and for the next few years (possibly a decade) his people will pay the price for his weakness.
There was no point in destroying Hizballa south of the Litany save claiming a victory for the television. The goal from the start was an international agreement that Hizballa should be disarmed and this decision acted uppon. In other words, implementing resolution 1559 immediately. This was not a military campaign but a diplomatic campaign with the military as a leverage. In addition to weakening the Hizballa for international and Lebanese forces to take over.
The international community, as predictable as ever, had to water down the resolution. Still, If the new resolution is decisively implemented, it is a good situation for Israel and hopefully will lead to full implementation of 1559. It is not Israel's job to clear the internal affairs of Lebanon. If it does, the price Lebanon will pay will be intolerable. Their goverment needs to grow some balls.
Bozon
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Originally posted by bozon
The goal from the start was an international agreement that Hizballa should be disarmed and this decision acted uppon.
Oh I see, another UN resolution that calls for Hezbollah to disarm, how quaint. How will this one be enforced considering all the other rsolutions calling for the same are ignored, maybe UNIFIL will act this time?
Forgive me but I used up all of my supply of optimism for a peacefull resolution to the mess over there after GW1 (when the west showed it's willingeness to free opressed Arab/Muslims and were denounced soon afterwards), land-for-peace does not work when your enemy is sworn and dedicated to see your destruction.
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Edbert,
My guess is that the UN will finally get around to taking strong action after mushroom clouds start appearing. Of course then it will be too late.
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Yeah, they'll keep their blue helmets down...bobbing up and down on each other's laps I'm sure.