Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Seagoon on August 09, 2006, 12:23:34 AM
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I wish that the following scenario were implausible, but given Ahmadinejad's absolute faith that the appearance of the 12th Imam is imminent and a host of recent statements to the effect that Israel is about to wiped off the face of the map, there really isn't a scenario too nutty for him...
This year, we are told, the Muslim commemorations associated with their calendar date 27 Rajab will occur on August 22. On this a most celebratory date in the Islamic calendar, best-selling author and Islamic scholar Robert Spencer reminds that the Prophet Muhammed made his ascension into heaven from the Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, an event known as the Miraj. “[T]he Night Journey has become firmly embedded in the Islamic consciousness,” Spencer notes, “such that Muslims today celebrate it as one of the central events of Muhammad’s life.” And now, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has selected that as an auspicious date to create a light over the skies of Jerusalem such as the world has never seen since the Miraj.
If as the president of the Reform Party in Syria, Farid Ghadry claims, “Ahmadinejad is planning an illumination of the night sky over Jerusalem to rival the one that greeted the Prophet of Islam on his journey,” then it is difficult to imagine anything other than a full-scale Iranian nuclear attack. As Spencer continues, “a nuclear attack on Jerusalem or even an all-out conventional assault against Israel by Iran would be consistent with Ahmadinejad’s oft-repeated denials of Israel’s right to exist and recent predictions that its demise was at hand.” These observations are the latest from a growing list of ominous portents from Iranian and Syrian leaders too horrific to ignore.
( Source - The Missiles of 27 Rajab (http://regimechangeiran.blogspot.com/2006/07/missiles-of-27-rajab.html) )
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Much good it would do for Iran.. after 30 mins of launch they would resemble parking lot.
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Originally posted by LLv34 Jarsci
Much good it would do for Iran.. after 30 mins of launch they would resemble parking lot.
Absolutely no doubt about that. Syria would likely go also. I have a hard time believing they are really that suicidal.
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Originally posted by LLv34 Jarsci
Much good it would do for Iran.. after 30 mins of launch they would resemble parking lot.
That wouldnt help the folks in Jerusalem.
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Originally posted by lukster
Absolutely no doubt about that. Syria would likely go also. I have a hard time believing they are really that suicidal.
After all the suicide bombings you really have a hard time believing Muslims are *really that suicidal*?
They dont care if they die, or how many of their people die, as long as they are following the Koran.
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Originally posted by Elfie
After all the suicide bombings you really have a hard time believing Muslims are *really that suicidal*?
They dont care if they die, or how many of their people die, as long as they are following the Koran.
I'm just hoping that the guys in power over in Iran like their cushy life, and are at least partially trumping up the whole suicide bomber thing to look "good" to their people, and thus preserve their cushy life.
But, hey, with this region, who the heck knows.
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I'm just hoping that the guys in power over in Iran like their cushy life, and are at least partially trumping up the whole suicide bomber thing to look "good" to their people, and thus preserve their cushy life.
I'm not counting on that.
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Originally posted by lukster
Absolutely no doubt about that. Syria would likely go also. I have a hard time believing they are really that suicidal.
I get the impression that Iran is desperate to make a martyr of itself.
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"They dont care if they die, or how many of their people die, as long as they are following the Koran."
I think you are making a silly generalization here. But I am afraid the reasonable part of moslems may not have much influence to alter the politics of Iran.
You need to undersand the effect that owning nuclear power has on national prestige. E.g. as with India and Pakistan.
If a bomb falls in Israel a hasty retaliation from another country may have disastrous effects.
-C+
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If a bomb falls in Israel a hasty retaliation from another country may have disastrous effects.
Ok, then what should happen? What would an appropriate reponse be?
Would you fault Israel for retaliating with similar weapons?
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"Would you fault Israel for retaliating with similar weapons?"
Nope, that is what I expect to happen in such case. If there is anybody left to retaliate, that is...
Did you miss the part "from another country" in my initial post?
Like, this:
http://static.flickr.com/96/209266584_9d94170b56.jpg?v=0
:)
-C+
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Originally posted by Charge
If a bomb falls in Israel a hasty retaliation from another country may have disastrous effects.
Yes, they should take just enough time to research the proper cause of the attack and not one minute longer, but considering Iran has promised and may be finalizing plans its not hard to eliminate most of the causes.
I wonder if you'd be so willing to be patient if another country had promised that 'Finland would be wiped off the face of the earth' and now 'Espoo will be ignited by nuclear fire to herald a new Imam.'
No, I don't think so...
edit: I guess you don't fault them or anyone else that would take action against Iran for such an attack... consider my point withdrawn. I should of read the entire thread first...
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Originally posted by Furball
I get the impression that Iran is desperate to make a martyr of itself.
yep and I say we help the leaders of that country accomplish that goal ASAP
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Some of you are mistaking "Iran" for "Iranian hard-line religious leadership". The mainstream Iranian is persian and really feels no compelling need to martyr themselves for a bunch of lazy arab nutcases who would rather blow themselves up than get a job.
The Iranian government is held in check by a religious council that keeps power through a combination of popular religious rightousness and violent reprisals against dissent. Unlike other countries such as Turkey which is nearly the exact opposite of Iran (Turkey has a moderate government and a pissed off religious populace vs. Iran which has a hardline religous govt and a moderate populace), the Iranian people don't really seem all that interested in rocking the boat. They've had their wars and seem to prefer pepsi and blue jeans. We'll win a lot more battles in Iran with a soft hand than with a gloved fist.
That said, it is in our best interest to contain govt backed extremist influences streaming from Iran in the same way we resisted communist advances from the old soviet union. We don't have much to complain about regarding Iran itself (aside from nuke ambitions), but we do have an interest in their export of weapons and "volunteer martyrs" to surrounding countries.
Carrot and stick applies. We need to find an appropriate carrot, but it's hard to hide the fact that our stick is growing shorter and weaker with every budget cycle.
I'd personally recommend an Iraqi withdrawl and a silent agreement with Saudi Arabia and the Kurds to help contain the pending civil war and balance the Iranian and Syrian fueled "insurgency", followed by a strong show of force in support of an Israel-Lebanon cease-fire. But of course we won't see that...
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Iran may be planning on where to strike...
The US allready knows where we will strike.
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Jerusalem is an Islamic holy city. Seems unlikely Iran would nuke it. Iran entering the fray in a more substantial manner will likely mean direct US involvement. The only way these camel jockeys can defeat the US is to whittle away at our resolve as they have been doing in Iraq. They will lose a full scale military confrontation in short order.
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Hi Furball,
Originally posted by Furball
I get the impression that Iran is desperate to make a martyr of itself.
Ahmadinejad and the ruling council of Mullahs certainly are. Bernard Lewis, picked up on the 8/22 theme in the Wall St. Journal yesterday (I'd link directly to the article, but WSJ is subscription only). Lewis is easily one of the West's leading scholars on the subject of modern Islam.
He writes in part:
"What is the significance of Aug. 22? This year, Aug. 22 corresponds, in the Islamic calendar, to the 27th day of the month of Rajab of the year 1427. This, by tradition, is the night when many Muslims commemorate the night flight of the prophet Muhammad on the winged horse Buraq, first to "the farthest mosque," usually identified with Jerusalem, and then to heaven and back (c.f., Koran XVII.1). This might well be deemed an appropriate date for the apocalyptic ending of Israel and if necessary of the world. It is far from certain that Mr. Ahmadinejad plans any such cataclysmic events precisely for Aug. 22. But it would be wise to bear the possibility in mind.
A passage from the Ayatollah Khomeini, quoted in an 11th-grade Iranian schoolbook, is revealing. "I am decisively announcing to the whole world that if the world-devourers [i.e., the infidel powers] wish to stand against our religion, we will stand against their whole world and will not cease until the annihilation of all them. Either we all become free, or we will go to the greater freedom which is martyrdom. Either we shake one another's hands in joy at the victory of Islam in the world, or all of us will turn to eternal life and martyrdom. In both cases, victory and success are ours." "
The Martyrdom/Final Conflict language is currently being ramped up both in the Hezbollah and Iran. Even "moderates" in the Arabic world are framining the current conflict as modern day battle of Khaybar referring to the Prophet Muhammad's successfull raid on the Khaybar oasis which led to the final defeat and expulsion of the last Jewish presence on the Arabian peninsula.
Hence in Kuwait (one of the most supposedly "moderate" and pro-west Muslim nations) crowds chanted: "Khaybar, Khaybar, O Jews, the army of Muhammad will return.” (incidently, one of the Hezbollah missiles supplied by Iran is called the Khaybar-1 - which would have been like the Germans officially naming the V-2 "Brit Killer")
You see for us in the west, this is a nasty political conflict, in the middle east its a continuation of a religio/political conflict that began in 611 AD and which men like Ahmadinejad believe is now entering its final phases. They believe they can also speed up the final outcome.
The conflict is essentially irresolvable, because Israel occupies land that was conquered by Islam from the Byzantines and is thus an Islamic waqf (a permanent part of the Dar-El-Islam). The Hamas charter (and the Hezbollah charter) embodies this Sharia doctrine:
"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Moslem generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who could claim to have the right to represent Moslem generations till Judgement Day?
This is the law governing the land of Palestine in the Islamic Sharia (law) and the same goes for any land the Moslems have conquered by force, because during the times of (Islamic) conquests, the Moslems consecrated these lands to Moslem generations till the Day of Judgement." (Hamas Charter, Article 11)
Therefore Muslims must never stop fighting for the removal of Israel until the judgment day, and to die in such a fight is to enter directly into paradise. If you understand that, you'll understand why for Ahmadinejad, mutually assured destruction is actually an assurance of paradise and no threat at all.
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by eagl
Some of you are mistaking "Iran" for "Iranian hard-line religious leadership". The mainstream Iranian is persian and really feels no compelling need to martyr themselves for a bunch of lazy arab nutcases who would rather blow themselves up than get a job.
That's sort of similar to saying peolpe are mistaking Cuba for Castro and saying the mainstream Cubans aren't hardline communists with evil and cruel aspirations.
The problem is the mainstream is not in control, and have little if any say in how the country behaves, in both cases.
As such what the leaders of the country say and do is a far better illustration of what the intentions of that nation are, and what can be expected of them.
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We'll just have to hope that cooler heads prevail. If not, the response will have to be authoritative in a way that either converts them from their suicidal tendencies or accomodates them.
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Originally posted by Charge
"They dont care if they die, or how many of their people die, as long as they are following the Koran."
I think you are making a silly generalization here. But I am afraid the reasonable part of moslems may not have much influence to alter the politics of Iran.
You need to undersand the effect that owning nuclear power has on national prestige. E.g. as with India and Pakistan.
If a bomb falls in Israel a hasty retaliation from another country may have disastrous effects.
-C+
I was talking about the extremists, sorry, should have clarified that.
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IF and I say again, IF the statement to light up the night is in fact a true threat to use WMD on Isreal or another nation friendly to the west, or at least unfriendly to iran. It's time to start to take preparatory measures. I would assume there has been a redeployment of subs to the ME area to put iran in range of both conventional (cruise missiles) and unconventional weapons. They wouldn't be visible and likely not detectable by iranian forces.
Secondly a "shot across the bow" seems like a likely scenario to get a message to the ruling iranians. I don't know how that could or should be done but I see it as a possiblity to reinforce their vulnerability.
Of course this is all idle speculation on my part as I certainly do not have access to the intel related to iran's capabilities.
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11The angel of the LORD said to her further,
"Behold, you are with child,
And you will bear a son;
And you shall call his name Ishmael,
Because the LORD has given heed to your affliction.
12"He will be a wild donkey of a man,
His hand will be against everyone,
And everyone's hand will be against him;
And he will live to the east of all his brothers."
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Ahmadinejad's on Saturday Night Live this weekend....what a cheekbones! He should have held out for Leno.
:D
Mac
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I doubt it.
The prophecie says It has to be a solar eclipse in that month and moon eclipse too.
Interesting part is, that banners appeared within less than 24 hours
after Hizbollah kidnapped the Israeli soldiers. Coincidence?
The messages on the banners are:
“By renouncing sin and by integration for the sake of afterlife we become the best soldiers to our leader and savior the Mehdi”
At least Ahmadinejad has shown strong support beliving in the prophecies
Along with many other Hojjatiehs he advocates the hastening of the arrival of the 12th Imam leading to the battle between good and evil.
Imam will one day return to lead the religious battle between good and evil when the world has become consummately nefarious:
“Our revolution’s main mission is to pave the way for the reappearance of the 12th Imam, the Mahdi,”
"Today we should define our economic, cultural and political parties based on the policy of Imam Mahdi’s return we should avoid copying West’s politics and systems.”
I hope to survive my birthday at 22 Sept. one month later! ;)
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Originally posted by LLv34 Jarsci
Much good it would do for Iran.. after 30 mins of launch they would resemble parking lot.
probably not a launch scenario. If they have nukes and intended to use them against isreal, they would use well established black market routes to smuggle in the weapons. probably do some bravado god is comming thing and then light the fuse for wwIII final battle.
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I see the Israeli's now have IRG's bodies in lebanon, wonder if this will crank things up a notch or 5.
WW3 anyone?
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Originally posted by Vulcan
I see the Israeli's now have IRG's bodies in lebanon, wonder if this will crank things up a notch or 5.
WW3 anyone?
Iranian Republican Guard = IRG?
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Originally posted by Vulcan
I see the Israeli's now have IRG's bodies in lebanon, wonder if this will crank things up a notch or 5.
What is an IRG?
WW3 anyone?
IMHO it is inevitable, the final showdown between Islam and the civilized world that is. There's no way to have a billion people acting with a 6th century mentality and avoid it.
If it is inevitable then lets get on with it so our children wont have to, and quit this "low intensity" BS that has no chance of ending it.
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Hmmm...this is an interesting thought.
Wonder if I should pray for an early Tee Time with Bobby Jones , Ben Hogan , and Payne Stewart? I'll have to think about that one.
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Originally posted by Elfie
Iranian Republican Guard = IRG?
Iranian Revolutionary Guard.
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IDF has confirmed that some of the dead with Hezbolla are actully IRG. Hope you guys are catching the news.
Ahmadinejad is just a cheekbones. I say we light up Iran the night before.
BTW Roll on IDF!!! Kick Asss!!!!
:aok
Mac
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If East vs West are going to war to start Judgement Day (TM), I'd move to East Asian countries (China, Japan, Korea, Philippines) where i don't have to deal with this religious suicidal crap on both sides.
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Originally posted by tikky
If East vs West are going to war to start Judgement Day (TM), I'd move to East Asian countries (China, Japan, Korea, Philippines) where i don't have to deal with this religious suicidal crap on both sides.
Then you don't want to go to the Philippines....
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Originally posted by tikky
If East vs West are going to war to start Judgement Day (TM), I'd move to East Asian countries (China, Japan, Korea, Philippines) where i don't have to deal with this religious suicidal crap on both sides.
If it comes to a "Judgement Day" scale war one place will be as good, or bad, as the next within a short period. The fallout and nukuler winter and all.
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What scares me the most about the new age we live in as that there is no deterrent to the martyr or suicide bomber
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http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2006/07/israel_iran_and.html
Geez....Just found this...Iran is saying that on August 22nd it will give it's reply to the West's package of incentives for ending its nuclear program.
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We all know Iran and North Korea are to some degree in bed together...Could the Korean missile test on July 4, 2006 been a pre-cursor to what "may" happen on the 22nd? Anyone know if there are any similarties with the missiles NK shot, and what Iran has in its arsenal?
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Hi Tikky,
Originally posted by tikky
If East vs West are going to war to start Judgement Day (TM), I'd move to East Asian countries (China, Japan, Korea, Philippines) where i don't have to deal with this religious suicidal crap on both sides.
Actually, you'll find the Jihad really is worldwide. Of late, for instance, Jihadis have been working overtime to add Thailand to the Dar-El-Islam -
Wednesday, August 2, 2006 (Bangkok):
(AP)
A bomb planted along a railroad in southern Thailand exploded early on Wednesday, killing three policemen, a day after a huge spate of widespread, minor attacks by suspected Muslim separatists.
Another officer was injured in the attack in the Chana district of Songkhla province, which was believed to have targeted police who conduct daily inspections of tracks before the departure of morning trains, said police Lt. Col Sompien Eksomya.
The blast occurred at about 6:30 am (2300 GMT). Police found electrical wire leading from the tracks to bushes about 100 meters (330 feet) away, which they believe was used to trigger the explosion.
More than 1,500 people have been killed in Thailand's three Muslim-dominated provinces- Yala, Pattani and Narathiwat- since a resurgence of a violent Islamic separatist movement in January 2004.
There are also several Islamic Jihadist groups fighting to establish hegemony for "the religion of peace" in the Southern Phillipines, including Abu Sayyaf an Al-Qaeda affiliated organization.
There is even an embarassing Islamic insurgency in Western China (Xinjiang province or East Turkistan as the Jihadis call it). Chinese officials will admit to a death toll of 160 in 260 separate incidents over the past decade, but the actual death toll is probably much higher. Recently Xinhua (the official Chinese news agency) released a surprisingly frank report about the troubles...
BEIJING, Sept. 5 (Xinhuanet) -- The "East Turkistan" terrorist forces remain to be the great terrorist threat to China at presentand in future, a Chinese anti-terrorist official said here Monday.
"In the last decade, the terrorist threats that China confronted with were mainly terrorist activities of 'East Turkistan' terrorist forces inside and outside Chinese territory, international terrorist groups and terrorists," said Zhao Yongchen, deputy director of the Anti-Terrorism Bureau under the Ministry of Public Security.
"The terrorist activities carried out by the three terrorist forces have not only jeopardized China, but also posed a threat toregional security and stability," Zhao said.
On March 27, 2003, the East Turkistan Liberation Organization hijacked a passenger bus of a Xinjiang company, killed all the 21 passengers and the driver and set the bus on fire with the bodies inside it.
The three terrorist forces openly summon the extremists inside China to carry out terrorist activities aiming at kindergartens, schools and government, or attack Chinese armed forces and government agencies, with means of explosives and poison.
The forces, he said, have also become part of the international terrorist forces. "They have close ties and even align with terrorist groups including the Taliban, the Uzbekistan Islamic Liberation Movement and Al Qaeda."
According to Zhao, many members of the "East Turkistan" forces have received military training in terrorist bases in central and south Asia and directly have taken part in terrorist activities sponsored by owners of the bases.
There simply isn't anywhere on earth you can really simply escape from the Jihadis, unless of course you are a Penguin.
- SEAGOON
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whoa, those mother****ers doing that **** in China are really suicidal. They better pray the billion-man Chinese PLA won't do something bad on their group or their country origin.
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Did you miss the part "from another country" in my initial post?
No Charge, not at all. In fact, I think you make a very good point here. Since I agreed wholly with you, I didn't bring it up.
My point is, really, that everyone who thinks Isreal should reply to force with like force would probably go thru their collective roof if Israel began to launch hundreds of rockets into Lebanon indiscriminately.
Yet these same people complain that Isreal has overreacted.
Arguments aside, put yourself in Isreal's position. The hezbos sporadically launch rockets at your cities, with no specific goals other than to kill as many civilians as possible. Wouldn't you eventually get fed up with Lebanon's inability/refusal to put a stop to this? Doesn't there come a time for you when you decide that your citizens ought to be allowed to live in peace within your own borders and the only way to accomplish this is to eradicate the rocket firing, civilian-clothes-wearing perpetrators?
When is it too much?
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Can anyone link an actual "legit" news agency... CNN, BBC, anything, that reports what the linked blogs have said? Especially about Iran promising to give their reaction on August 22 to the West's demands that they end their Nuclear program?
And as I read in the link in your initial post, Seagoon, it looked like the Iranian President's competitor was the one who claimed the Iranian President said such things?
It's not that I necessarily think this is an overreaction (is this really the sort of thing one can afford to underestimate?), but I'd just like to see a few more sources before I make up my mind, for what it's worth (pretty much, nothing, granted).
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Hello Vudak,
Originally posted by Vudak
Can anyone link an actual "legit" news agency... CNN, BBC, anything, that reports what the linked blogs have said? Especially about Iran promising to give their reaction on August 22 to the West's demands that they end their Nuclear program?
Yes the August 22nd date is legitimate and was set by Iran in response to UN pressure (they wanted a much earlier response). The following is from Reuters:
TEHRAN, July 13 (Reuters) - Iran said on Thursday it would not abandon its right to nuclear technology in a defiant statement after Tehran's case was sent back to the U.N. Security Council over its atomic dispute with the West.
But U.S. President George W. Bush kept up the pressure saying Tehran could not "wait us out" and Germany warned "other steps" would be necessary if Tehran did not respond to a package to rein in its atomic work.
Five permanent Security Council members, the United States, France, Britain, Russia, China, plus Germany backed a package calling for Iran to halt uranium enrichment in return for economic and diplomatic incentives. But on Wednesday they asked the council to intervene after Tehran failed to reply.
"Our answer to the P5+1 package is clear, the Iranian nation abides by international laws and regulations but will not abandon its obvious right to obtain nuclear technology," Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was quoted as saying by state TV.
The West says Iran wants to enrich uranium to produce atomic bombs, a charge Iran denies. It has refused to halt the work.
"We are trying to investigate the proposed package positively," Ahmadinejad said in comments carried by Iran's Fars news agency, but repeated that Iran would give its final reply by Aug. 22 despite pressure for a swifter response.
For several weeks the west was wondering, "why August 22nd?" Gradually however, consensus is building that Ahmadinejad picked an Islamic Holy Day with a connection to Jerusalem specifically to make a high profile symbolic gesture. The best case scenario is that once again he thumbs his nose at the west on the enrichment question, the worst is the stuff of nightmares...
In any event, it's becoming increasingly obvious that Iran filling Southern Lebanon with short and medium range missiles and then sending in Hezbollah to do a highly provocative raid followed by the largest series of barrages yet, was planned well in advance. Iran has deliberately baited Israel into a proxy war on their terms, I hardly expect their only goals are to generate bad PR for Israel and give them a bloody nose.
My general read is that Ahmadinejad is specifically attempting to jump start a regional Jihad against Israel - so far the Arab league has resisted that impulse, but given the increasing level of protests amongst the umma in their own countries he may get what he wants - especially if he can provoke an Israeli response against a major power like Iran - which is precisely what they want.
Their sense, right or wrong is that Israel has never been weaker, that western support for Israel is evaporating, and that America is too over-extended and politically hamstrung to intervene. Israel's failure to quickly roll-over Hezbollah and recent change of strategic command will only have encouraged that theory.
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Hello Vudak,
Yes the August 22nd date is legitimate and was set by Iran in response to UN pressure (they wanted a much earlier response). The following is from Reuters:
For several weeks the west was wondering, "why August 22nd?" Gradually however, consensus is building that Ahmadinejad picked an Islamic Holy Day with a connection to Jerusalem specifically to make a high profile symbolic gesture. The best case scenario is that once again he thumbs his nose at the west on the enrichment question, the worst is the stuff of nightmares...
In any event, it's becoming increasingly obvious that Iran filling Southern Lebanon with short and medium range missiles and then sending in Hezbollah to do a highly provocative raid followed by the largest series of barrages yet, was planned well in advance. Iran has deliberately baited Israel into a proxy war on their terms, I hardly expect their only goals are to generate bad PR for Israel and give them a bloody nose.
My general read is that Ahmadinejad is specifically attempting to jump start a regional Jihad against Israel - so far the Arab league has resisted that impulse, but given the increasing level of protests amongst the umma in their own countries he may get what he wants - especially if he can provoke an Israeli response against a major power like Iran - which is precisely what they want.
Their sense, right or wrong is that Israel has never been weaker, that western support for Israel is evaporating, and that America is too over-extended and politically hamstrung to intervene. Israel's failure to quickly roll-over Hezbollah and recent change of strategic command will only have encouraged that theory.
- SEAGOON
Thanks for the clarification, Seagoon.
Let's hope that best case scenario is, in fact, what transpires.
(And failing that, let's at least hope Russia, China, Pakistan, and India, amongst others, are ok with the Israeli and/or US response).
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As I mentioned, I remain doubtful that Iran would "nuke" Jerusalem, at least with a near ground burst. Something much higher to destroy Israel's electronic/electric capability with the emp without killing people seems more likely and would certainly "light up the sky". Israel would probably be unable to respond. I'm not sure how the US should respond, perhaps in kind.
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Originally posted by tikky
If East vs West are going to war to start Judgement Day (TM), I'd move to East Asian countries (China, Japan, Korea, Philippines) where i don't have to deal with this religious suicidal crap on both sides.
LMFAO...avoid the east v west fight by goinig to Korea?
Oh yeah, it is north v south there, guess you do have a point
(http://www.haxed.co.uk/cms/uploads/pics/giant_rolleyes.gif)
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"The hezbos sporadically launch rockets at your cities, with no specific goals other than to kill as many civilians as possible. Wouldn't you eventually get fed up with Lebanon's inability/refusal to put a stop to this? Doesn't there come a time for you when you decide that your citizens ought to be allowed to live in peace within your own borders and the only way to accomplish this is to eradicate the rocket firing, civilian-clothes-wearing perpetrators?"
If you put it that way, of course I'd be fed up.
But what IS their motivation to do that?
They are Evil(TM)?
They are moslem maddogs and want to kill everything non-moslem? (TM)
They try to taunt Israel to attack to turn the whole moslem world against Israel and ultimately to destroy Israel together?
They think that Israel do not have right to occupy any part of Lebanon and want them out of Lebanese soil completely and without any excuse of defensive security etc.?
They want to support Palestinians in their aspirations of independence?
-C+
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I wonder if the "light up the sky" was a reference to the foiled airline bombing plot in the UK...
In the meantime...
Charge, your sarcastic motivations are, except for the first one, pretty much the publicly stated objectives of many religious extremist (aka "terrorist") groups. The apologetic philosophy of making excuses for terrorists is a rather extreme liberal point of view. I refer of course to "global liberalism", not US democrat "liberalism"... If you don't know the difference or don't know what global or international liberal philosophy means, then you might want to do a little studying before trying to come up with excuses for the Islamist terrorist behaviors.
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Originally posted by Charge
But what IS their motivation to do that?
They are Evil(TM)?
They are moslem maddogs and want to kill everything non-moslem? (TM)
They try to taunt Israel to attack to turn the whole moslem world against Israel and ultimately to destroy Israel together?
They think that Israel do not have right to occupy any part of Lebanon and want them out of Lebanese soil completely and without any excuse of defensive security etc.?
They want to support Palestinians in their aspirations of independence?
Assuming you are serious...
Yes
Yes
Yes
Irrelevant/pointless
No (none of the Arab countries really give a flip about "palestinians" or they'd welcome them into their countries)
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So eagl, are you saying that if you are welcome to spew out you opinions on this topic I am not, because I don't know, according to you, what the whole topic is about because I am "extremist liberal"?
-C+
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You don't seem to have an opinion Charge. You do however seem interested in making apologies for terrorists and trying to discredit or minimize the motivations of those involved in the actual fighting, and scoff at the idea that actions have consequences.
That makes you a pretty typical extreme international liberal. You make no real contribution yourself, don't bother to actually educate yourself on the subject you spout off about, yet you deride and decry the words and actions of those who are actually involved. You and your kind love to accuse the victim and make excuses for deadly behaviors of aggressive radicals who seek to spread their faith under a 'convert or die' mode of operation. It is cultural relativism at it's worst.
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It's easy to read too much into statements like lighting up the sky on August 22nd. The Arabs and presumably the Persians are much given to flowery overblown rhetorical statements. Anyone remember the Baghdad Bob?
It's highly unlikely that the Iranians would nuke Jerusalem, which after all contains one of Islams holiest shrines and where presumably they would expect the mythical prophet to return.
It's easy to get carried away with current events in Lebanon. Unfortunately this is yet another in a long line of skirmishes in that part of the world. No worse or no better than all the rest. Once the rest of the world get their act together and sort out who controls southern Lebanon. The Israelis will pull out.
The real threat is in the future should Iran get nuclear weapons and the stupidity to use them.
This is not the end of the world.
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Originally posted by cpxxx
The real threat is in the future should Iran get nuclear weapons and the stupidity to use them.
They already have the latter, and I hope never EVER get the former.
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If Iran develops nukes and puts them on rockets, maybe we'll have a market in the region for all of our old short range rockets. Dig up a dozen or so from Germany and tote them down south a bit... We used to think the Russian commies were whackos too, but we managed to avoid tossing nukes at each other. Maybe MAD will work with Iran. It seems to have worked with India and Pakistan without our help, so it's not really all that strange of an idea.
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Originally posted by eagl
If Iran develops nukes and puts them on rockets, maybe we'll have a market in the region for all of our old short range rockets. Dig up a dozen or so from Germany and tote them down south a bit... We used to think the Russian commies were whackos too, but we managed to avoid tossing nukes at each other. Maybe MAD will work with Iran. It seems to have worked with India and Pakistan without our help, so it's not really all that strange of an idea.
i sure hope my government won`t take chances on this matter and the pm will have balls like menachem begin did.
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Originally posted by eagl
Maybe MAD will work with Iran. It seems to have worked with India and Pakistan without our help, so it's not really all that strange of an idea.
I hope you are right. But in India/Pakistan I see some signs of rational behavior from their leadership, MAD seems to define the GOALS Iran's leadership, so how much of a deterrant could it be?
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Soda's wild prediction for 22 Aug..
No Nuclear bomb but the following...
22 Aug, 2006
Iran Mines the Strait of Hormuz ...
and Venezuela halts oil shipments to the US
The day we declared an "end of the Oil age" will be the same day there will be peace in the Middle East..
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After studying this a bit more I find myself like Vudak, wondering how much of this is specualtion. It appears that the only "fact" is that Iran did delay their response to the UN until the 22nd of August. The "light up the sky over Jerusalem" statement was not made by Ahmadinejad, at least any where I can find. Also, the anniversary of the original event will occur the night of August 21, not the 22.
I wouldn't put it past Iran to do something like this but the threat does not seem so imminent considering it's mostly specualtion.
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Hi Cpxxx,
Originally posted by cpxxx
It's easy to read too much into statements like lighting up the sky on August 22nd. The Arabs and presumably the Persians are much given to flowery overblown rhetorical statements. Anyone remember the Baghdad Bob?
It's highly unlikely that the Iranians would nuke Jerusalem, which after all contains one of Islams holiest shrines and where presumably they would expect the mythical prophet to return.
Just wanted to address a few religious misconceptions. First the Mahdi, the 12th Imam is prophesied to reappear in Mecca not Jerusalem.
Secondly, it is a common misunderstanding that Jerusalem is a particularly holy city to Muslims. Jerusalem itself is never mentioned in the Koran or the Hadiths. It's only value religiously, to Islam is as the location for the Al-Aqsa or farthest Mosque built by the Umayyads in 715. Supposedly the Dome was built over the rock from which Mohommed made the "Miraj" or night journey to heaven.
However, the city itself is not critical to Islam. No great icons of Islam are buried there, it has no role in future Islamic history (you know what we call "mythical prophecies"), is not a capital from which Muslims historically ruled great areas, and in recent history is more of a thorn in the side in that it is currently governed by infidels and not subject ot Sharia.
Now if Jews destroyed or damaged the Al-Aqsa, the Islamic world would go crazy in a way that would make the cartoon riots seem mild. However, if Muslims damaged the Al-Aqsa in the process of inflicting serious damage on Israel, this would be considered an entirely acceptable loss. The most important priority is that the Islamic waqf of Palestine be recovered from the Infidels prior to Judgment day. That is the priority established by Islamic law, all other considerations of life or property are secondary and any Muslim who dies in the process of accomplishing this goal is blessed as a shahid (holy martyr).
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by soda72
The day we declared an "end of the Oil age" will be the same day there will be peace in the Middle East..
I would not be so sure of that
oil is the reason for our interest in the region but that interest is not the reason the cheekboness want us dead
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Originally posted by Eagler
I would not be so sure of that
oil is the reason for our interest in the region but that interest is not the reason the cheekboness want us dead
True, but without oil revenues for them to use it becomes much more difficult for those "cheekboness" to wage war.
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While supposedly the attack recently thwarted in the UK was being carried out by people of Pakistani extraction living in the UK, you have to wonder if it might have been the "fire in the sky" (exploding airliners?) the clown from Iran was speaking of (funded and assisted by Iran maybe?).
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Originally posted by eagl
You don't seem to have an opinion Charge. You do however seem interested in making apologies for terrorists and trying to discredit or minimize the motivations of those involved in the actual fighting, and scoff at the idea that actions have consequences.
That makes you a pretty typical extreme international liberal. You make no real contribution yourself, don't bother to actually educate yourself on the subject you spout off about, yet you deride and decry the words and actions of those who are actually involved. You and your kind love to accuse the victim and make excuses for deadly behaviors of aggressive radicals who seek to spread their faith under a 'convert or die' mode of operation. It is cultural relativism at it's worst.
Well said sir! ...Damn proud to have men and women like you flying the jet's that protect our country!
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
While supposedly the attack recently thwarted in the UK was being carried out by people of Pakistani extraction living in the UK, you have to wonder if it might have been the "fire in the sky" (exploding airliners?) the clown from Iran was speaking of (funded and assisted by Iran maybe?).
maybe.....
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
While supposedly the attack recently thwarted in the UK was being carried out by people of Pakistani extraction living in the UK, you have to wonder if it might have been the "fire in the sky" (exploding airliners?) the clown from Iran was speaking of (funded and assisted by Iran maybe?).
While I wont rule any crazyness out when discussing Iran...I doubt it.
Reports I'm reading about the UK plot center around our friends Al Qaeda, who are comprised of Sunnis, the arch enemies of Iran's favored international terrorist group Hezbollah which is comprised of S h i i t e s.
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Originally posted by Edbert1
While I wont rule any crazyness out when discussing Iran...I doubt it.
Reports I'm reading about the UK plot center around our friends Al Qaeda, who are comprised of Sunnis, the arch enemies of Iran's favored international terrorist group Hezbollah which is comprised of S h i i t e s.
Agreed. However, don't forget that Iran recently released OBL's kin and sent him to join Hezbollah in Lebanon. No, the two factions ain't holdin hands, but you can bet yer bellybutton they hate "us" a lot more than they dislike each other.
I'm not convinced either way by any stretch, we (the public) don't know enough yet.
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"don't bother to actually educate yourself on the subject you spout off about, yet you deride and decry the words and actions of those who are actually involved."
Riiiiight. Somehow I'm really dissapointed. Sigh.
Involved? Actually we Europeans live on the same continent with these buggers, you don't. If the situation escalates for some reason the south Europeans and particularly the French and Germans live interesting times..the Brits do already.
-C+
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Originally posted by soda72
True, but without oil revenues for them to use it becomes much more difficult for those "cheekboness" to wage war.
I think it will make it worse. Taking their money away from them will make them far more desperate than they are now. They will view the West as directly responsible for the collapse of their economies.
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Originally posted by Nifty
I think it will make it worse. Taking their money away from them will make them far more desperate than they are now. They will view the West as directly responsible for the collapse of their economies.
What economy? These people live in mud shacks with thatched roofs and sheets for doors. Unless you mean the rulers of these countries, they certainly have something to loose.
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Originally posted by Nifty
I think it will make it worse. Taking their money away from them will make them far more desperate than they are now. They will view the West as directly responsible for the collapse of their economies.
Point is, they will no longer have the extra cash flow to toss millions of dollars to terrorist groups to buy weapons with. Nor will they have the extra cash to pay for the weapons, then hand them to the terrorist groups.
Eventually the oil will run out anyway, what the heck do the Arabs think they are gonna do then? Blame the West for buying all the oil? heh....actually, they just might.
How big of a threat were terrorists before the oil boom boosted thier coffers?
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Originally posted by Elfie
Point is, they will no longer have the extra cash flow to toss millions of dollars to terrorist groups to buy weapons with. Nor will they have the extra cash to pay for the weapons, then hand them to the terrorist groups.
Eventually the oil will run out anyway, what the heck do the Arabs think they are gonna do then? Blame the West for buying all the oil? heh....actually, they just might.
How big of a threat were terrorists before the oil boom boosted thier coffers?
Yep, they will go back to killing each other. We can forget the whole region after.
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Originally posted by tikky
If East vs West are going to war to start Judgement Day (TM), I'd move to East Asian countries (China, Japan, Korea, Philippines) where i don't have to deal with this religious suicidal crap on both sides.
Not China! I work with a number of Chinese students and visiting scientists. In Western China, they face problems with Islamic fundamentalists, too. We just don't get to hear as much about it due to the whole government controlled media over there.
Erm...and don't forget about the little N. Korean thing either.
Phillipines? Nope.
Japan? Remember their little subway gassing incident by the doomsday cult?
Nutcases with agendas are everywhere.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
While supposedly the attack recently thwarted in the UK was being carried out by people of Pakistani extraction living in the UK, you have to wonder if it might have been the "fire in the sky" (exploding airliners?) the clown from Iran was speaking of (funded and assisted by Iran maybe?).
That's the problem with metaphor - its real convenient. Could be, maybe not. But if it worked, they would've said it was. Don't mean it was or it wasn't.
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Originally posted by Elfie
Eventually the oil will run out anyway, what the heck do the Arabs think they are gonna do then? Blame the West for buying all the oil? heh....actually, they just might.
They know very well how to spend the money today in the desert before
the oil runs out.
Today they build the best hotels and palaces in the world, like the Burj al Arab.
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Originally posted by Edbert1
What economy? These people live in mud shacks with thatched roofs and sheets for doors. Unless you mean the rulers of these countries, they certainly have something to loose.
Yes, I was referring to the rulers of the countries.
When the cash flow starts dwindling for them, these nutjobs in power are gonna do something. I don't know what they'll do, but they'll do something.
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Originally posted by cpxxx
.
This is not the end of the world.
Not yet, the end is going to come after a long and painfull war.Nostradamus said 27 years
"""VIII: 77
L'antichrist trios bien tost annichiliez, Vingt & sept and sang durera sa guerre Les heretiques morts, captifs, exilez, Sang corps humain eau rogie gresler terre.
The Third Antichrist soon annihilated, Twenty-seven years his bloody war will last: The heretics dead, captives exiled, Blood soaked bodies, and a reddened, icy hail covering the earth."""
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Ghi, that can't be true.. as you can see:
"""Kuabris Defrabax Rexulon Ukkazaal Ukzaab Urpaefel Taculbain Habrak Hacoruin Maquafel Tebrain Hmcatuin Rokasor Himesor Argaabil Kaquaan Docrabax Reisaz Reisabrax Decaiquan Oiquaquil Zaitabor Qaxaop Dugraq Xaelobran Disaeda Magisuan Raitak Huidal Uscolda Arabaom Zipreus Mecrim Cosmae Duquifas Rocarbis."""
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Originally posted by lukster
Absolutely no doubt about that. Syria would likely go also. I have a hard time believing they are really that suicidal.
i dont.
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Originally posted by kamilyun
Not China! I work with a number of Chinese students and visiting scientists. In Western China, they face problems with Islamic fundamentalists, too. We just don't get to hear as much about it due to the whole government controlled media over there.
Erm...and don't forget about the little N. Korean thing either.
Phillipines? Nope.
Japan? Remember their little subway gassing incident by the doomsday cult?
Nutcases with agendas are everywhere.
There's NOTHING in Western China and no foreigner will ever settle there. Maybe the China that i'm thinking about is the eastern provinces. I'm confident the PLA can handle the terrorists in "East Turkestan" (Xinjiang) if they start doing something fishy...
Japan would be a nice place to live in peace but they only let few gaikokujins[/] to live there (less than 5% of total population)
And in the Philippines... that country is in bad shape. Almost all of my relatives from my father's side left that country in early 90s. It's so bad that the Philippines have to deal with the JIHADISTS, COMMUNISTS, and the people within the government (destabilizers).
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Bernard Lewis, picked up on the 8/22 theme in the Wall St. Journal yesterday (I'd link directly to the article, but WSJ is subscription only). Lewis is easily one of the West's leading scholars on the subject of modern Islam.
Maybe you should have quoted the whole article Seagoon, because Lewis finishes with a statement that undermines your past contention that the problem is with the root and branch of Islam and not a disturbed minority as I keep reminding you.
In the long term, it would seem that the best, perhaps the only hope is to appeal to those Muslims, Iranians, Arabs and others who do not share these apocalyptic perceptions and aspirations, and feel as much threatened, indeed even more threatened, than we are. There must be many such, probably even a majority in the lands of Islam.
Source (http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=11000876)
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I'm betting that Iran does NOT have the kahones to pop a nuke over Israel come Aug 22nd. Any takers?
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They have the cojones, they don't have teh n00k...yet.
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Originally posted by lukster
I'm betting that Iran does NOT have the kahones to pop a nuke over Israel come Aug 22nd. Any takers?
dirty bomb?
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Iran airbursts a nuke high in the atmosphere. No damage, but quite a light show.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Iran airbursts a nuke high in the atmosphere. No damage, but quite a light show.
It would have to be very high for the emp not to do any damage.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Iran airbursts a nuke high in the atmosphere. No damage, but quite a light show.
No damage. Unless you count the radioactive fallout.
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The U.S. has airburst alot of nuclear weapons. No lasting damage.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
The U.S. has airburst alot of nuclear weapons. No lasting damage.
No damage when the burst wasn't over anything, like a fleet of ships that were damaged or sunk when it was.
I think it it would be almost as much of a mistake for them to detonate a nuke over Israel without causing damage as doing one that does. That would almost surely provoke an attack from Israel. No middle eastern country will survive a no holds barred war with Israel.
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umm, since this was dug back up...
I don't ever remember seeing an article where the Iranian President said the sky would light up over Israel on August 22nd. Where did you guys get this from, and how come I don't recall seeing anything about it in the AP or Reuters?
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Originally posted by Nifty
umm, since this was dug back up...
I don't ever remember seeing an article where the Iranian President said the sky would light up over Israel on August 22nd. Where did you guys get this from, and how come I don't recall seeing anything about it in the AP or Reuters?
I don't think he said it. Some are speculating that's why he delayed his answer to the UN until the 22nd. Sounds possible to me though, if unikely.
The 22nd is just around the corner.
I "dug" it up because of the current celebration among Israel's enemies. Especially the one that claims Israel must and will be completely destroyed, you know, the president of Iran. Is he a man of action or hot air? Well, that and I was enjoying some pretty good margaritas last night.
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Originally posted by lukster
I'm betting that Iran does NOT have the kahones to pop a nuke over Israel come Aug 22nd. Any takers?
Interesting phrasology. I guess that in case Iran does n00k Israel, they will be evil genocidal tards. And if they don't they would be gutless cowards.
Spintacular!
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Just heard on the news that they're on hold for some international offer reply regarding their nuclear development.
I don't feel good about them, it's as if they're pondering on whether to blackmail or to go ugly.
And the Prez just opened a blogsite.
Want the link?