Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Seagoon on August 09, 2006, 11:08:32 PM
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Hi Guys,
I know that most of you won't be interested in this, but I thought I'd post it for those of you with relatives in the military who are in the area and might be interested. Please feel free to pass this on as you wish. If someone would like to attend, but would need overnight accomodation, please contact me and I'll see if I can't find a place to stay free (or if you would prefer I can tell you which motels/hotels are nearest).
On August 25th and 26th we will be hosting a free conference entitled Bearing the Sword: What the Bible Says About War and Capital Punishment. I decided on the subject because questions concerning the bible's teaching on war are what I field most often from members of our largely military community (Fayetteville is the home of Ft. Bragg and Pope Airforce Base). Our Speakers this year are Pastor Rick Phillips, and Professor Tony Curto. Basic biographical information for these gentlemen is available below.
Bearing the Sword: What the Bible Says About War and Capital Punishment
A Free Bible Conference - August 25-26 2006
Providence PCA Church
2801 Ramsey St., Fayetteville, NC 28301
SCHEDULE
FRIDAY, AUGUST 25
7:00 PM - Rick Phillips - Understanding the Sixth Commandment
SATURDAY, AUGUST 26
9:00 AM - Tony Curto - Capital Punishment and the Civil Magistrate
10:15-10:30 AM - Break
10:30AM - Rick Phillips - The Christian View of War
11:45AM - Q&A Session
12:30 AM - 2:00 PM - CATERED LUNCH AT THE CHURCH
2:00 PM - Rick Phillips - The Christian Idea of Valor
3:15 PM - Q&A Session
4:15 PM - 7:00 PM - Dinner Break
7:00PM - Tony Curto - Civil War, Revolution, and Civil Disobedience
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Pastor Rick Phillips - Richard Phillips is senior minister of First Presbyterian Church in Coral Springs/Margate, Florida (PCA). He previously served as minister of preaching at the historic Tenth Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia. He is also a board member of the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals and is chairman of the Philadelphia Conference on Reformed Theology. His preaching is heard on the radio program God’s Living Word, broadcast in South Florida on FM 90.3 WAFG.
An officer in the United States Army for thirteen years, Phillips commanded tank units and later served as assistant professor of leadership at West Point before resigning with the rank of major to enter the ministry. He holds degrees from the University of Michigan, the Wharton School of Business and Westminster Theological Seminary.
Reverend Phillips is the author of numerous books, including his most recent, Chosen in Christ: The Glory of God’s Grace in Ephesians 1.
Professor Tony Curto - Having pastored several churches in Southern California, and having served several years as a missionary to the Karamojong people in Uganda, Tony Curto is currently Professor of Practical Theology and Evangelism at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Greenville, SC.
Prof. Curto, who is the son and grandson of US Marines, holds B.A., M.A., M.Div., and D.Min. degrees and is the author of The Dawning Light, A History of the Scottish Presbyterian Church.
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Registration for the conference is free, but there is a $3 charge for the lunch on Saturday
Childcare will also be available at a rate of $5 a day per family
To register for the conference in advance, please send an email to providencepca@hotmail.com indicating:
The Names of People Attending the Conference:
Contact Email and Phone #s:
Which Days You Will Be Attending:
How Many Will Need Lunch on Saturday:
How Many Children Will Need Childcare and Which Days:
Also please feel free to ask any questions via email or phone (my contact information can be found here:
http://www.providencepca.com/feedback.html
- SEAGOON
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Seagoon that sounds very interesting, to bad I live so far away. :(
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Hi Elfie,
I'm sorry too, it would have been good to meet you. I Wish I could offer to fly in interested people, but sadly the only aircraft I can afford to operate are all virtual so the best I can do is try to offer a free place to stay.
Ah well, if you are ever in vicinity, drop by anyway.
- SEAGOON
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Never mind the bible. What do the ten commandments say about war?
'Thou shalt not kill'.
Hmm, no room for interpretation there.
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Hi cpxxx,
Originally posted by cpxxx
Never mind the bible. What do the ten commandments say about war?
'Thou shalt not kill'.
Hmm, no room for interpretation there.
Your statement actually partially illustrates why we feel the need to have a conference.
As you are probably well aware, the Ten Commandments are found in the Bible at Exodus 20 and again in Deuteronomy 5. They were originally given in Hebrew, not 16th century King James Version English and thus the 6th commandment is actually Lo Ratsach - literally "Do Not Murder". Consequently, most modern English translations (NIV, NASB, NKJV, etc.) all translate Exodus 20:13 as "You Shall not Murder".
The fact that the commandments are found in the midst of positive commandments to put evil doers to death should indicate that Exodus 20:13 cannot be a blanket prohibition on all taking of human life. For instance in the very next chapter we read that God also told Moses to teach the following to the people -
"He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death. However, if he did not lie in wait, but God delivered him into his hand, then I will appoint for you a place where he may flee. But if a man acts with premeditation against his neighbor, to kill him by treachery, you shall take him from My altar, that he may die." (Exodus 21:12-13)
The above clearly indicates that under the divinely given Jewish civil law, Capital punishment was prescribed for premeditated murder, but not for accidental manslaughter.
In any event, the teaching of the Word on killing in both the NT and the OT is far more complex than a simple blanket prohibition.
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by cpxxx
Never mind the bible. What do the ten commandments say about war?
'Thou shalt not kill'.
Hmm, no room for interpretation there.
There is room for translation though and I believe the original text meant "Thou shalt not murder".
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You really need a whole conference for this?
Comon man, you're either with the terrorists or you're with the Bible.
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Ok, having been duly corrected. Thou shalt not murder.
So killing is OK as long as they are evil doers, murderers and enemies.
Suddenly all is clear. Killing is good and neccessary. Of course enemies is a nicely broad term. Innocent civilians, men, women and children are fair game. People on airliners, in houses, in cars. People in the wrong place at the wrong time. As long as it's war it's OK. It's not murder.
You know until now, I had an incomplete understanding of the of the mentality of the Jihadists. Now I see the Christian opposite.
They say you learn something new every day and I have today. Why do I feel slightly sick?
Thank you, Seagoon.
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Depending on what sort of Christian you are, then there are many many interpratations to make on the bibles thoughts RE: the above.
On one extreme we have the Far right, fundalmentailsts gagging for another war so we can have the rapture they are so convinced is about to happen and on the other side you could have say, the methodists for example who don't advocate war based on their interpration of the bible.
I guess it all comes down to who has the best marketing plan and cash flow in terms of winning converts to their train of thought or getting a message across that is particular to the intepretaion.
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You are taking the whole thing out of context Cpxxx. :)
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Hello again Cpxxx,
Originally posted by cpxxx
Ok, having been duly corrected. Thou shalt not murder.
So killing is OK as long as they are evil doers, murderers and enemies.
Suddenly all is clear. Killing is good and neccessary. Of course enemies is a nicely broad term. Innocent civilians, men, women and children are fair game. People on airliners, in houses, in cars. People in the wrong place at the wrong time. As long as it's war it's OK. It's not murder.
You know until now, I had an incomplete understanding of the of the mentality of the Jihadists. Now I see the Christian opposite.
They say you learn something new every day and I have today. Why do I feel slightly sick?
Thank you, Seagoon.
How on earth do you move from what I wrote to the monstrous idea that I endorse unilaterally killing innocent civillians?
I believe that the Magistrate was given the power of the sword and may lawfully exercise that right only in the prosecution of a just war against an aggressor or in punishing capital crimes like murder. I do not believe in Terrorism, revenge, feuding, brawling, duels, or a host of other forms of violence. I certainly do not believe in some sort of reverse Jihad or Christian "Holy War."*
Can I take it from your response Cpxxx that you are an absolute pacifist and would not approve of killing even to defend yourself or your countrymen from unprovoked aggression or to stop civillians being slaughtered by terrorists? Also that you believe that is wrong and immoral to have an army or an armed police and that when police officers or soldiers kill, it is always an abominable act of murder?
EDIT: *PDFs and/or AUDIO of what I do believe and teach regarding violence and the taking of human life are available here:
The Sixth Commandment, pts.1-4 (http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?sourceOnly=true&currSection=sermonssource&keyword=providencepca&keyworddesc=Providence+PCA+Church&subsetcat=series&subsetitem=The+Ten+Commandments)
- SEAGOON
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Yo Seagoon.
So we got this thou shalt not murder thing.
Who decides what is a murder? In non theocratic countries, the regime does. In theocratic countries, the priesthood does.
So, if the law says that it's ok to stone a woman because she was raped and now is unclean, her killing would be lawful. It wouldn't be murder.
Who's laws are we talking about here? You're the expert on the Bible laws. Setting aside the Old Testament and its many examples of righteous killings, in what cases would Jesus say "right, this man deserves to die"?
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Can't you Christian haters just leave the poor guy alone? Try and show some tolerance for other views for a change. :rolleyes:
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Hi St,
Originally posted by StSanta
Yo Seagoon.
So we got this thou shalt not murder thing.
Who decides what is a murder? In non theocratic countries, the regime does. In theocratic countries, the priesthood does.
So, if the law says that it's ok to stone a woman because she was raped and now is unclean, her killing would be lawful. It wouldn't be murder.
Who's laws are we talking about here? You're the expert on the Bible laws. Setting aside the Old Testament and its many examples of righteous killings, in what cases would Jesus say "right, this man deserves to die"?
Again, you're essentially asking me to do the conference myself here via online exchanges.
For what it is worth, in the civil law of Israel, a raped woman was the innocent party and it was her rapist who was the malefactor. The Islamic idea that you punish the victim is not endorsed.
The Bible simply teaches that the deliberate unjust taking of human life is murder because humans are created in the image of God.
As for what Christ and the apostles endorsed, neither Christ nor the Apostles condemned the profession of soldier, in fact several soldiers in the NT were commended for the faith and none were ever told to leave their profession. Also, at no point did Jesus or the apostles condemn capital punishment in and of itself, Paul twice makes it clear that he accepted that the authorities had the right to put criminals to death. What they were universally critical of was murder, regardless of whether the perpetrators were civilians, soldiers, or politicians.
What I tend to find, is that people today want the Bible to teach absolute pacifism, even though they have no intention of following that teaching. In other words, they want Jesus and the Apostles to set an ideal that would only be tenable in a sinless utopia, so they can say "wouldn't it be nice if..." and have an idealistic objective that every student of actual human nature knows is impossible to achieve. That way they can shrug and say, "I wish I could follow the teachings of Jesus but since we've just been attacked, we are going to have to do some killing..."
We want impossible ideals to make us feel better, not actual commandments to live by. We want a tame, defanged, Santa Claus kind of God, not the righteous and terrifying God of the Bible. C.S. Lewis captured this idea well in "The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe" when he has Lucy ask if Aslan is "safe" to which the reply comes, "No he is not safe, but he is good." We like gentle Jesus meek and mild, but we don't like the Jesus who purged the temple or the Jesus who returns at the end as the warrior king to judge the living and the dead. So when the Bible teaches us that Christ is both and that it depends on your relation to Him, we reject that and instead reshape him as the non-bibilcal Jesus we'd prefer.
- SEAGOON
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That begs the question of how murder is defined, and who defines it. Is it possible for a society to be so misguided in its definition of murder that it is a sin to execute a "criminal" under its laws? If so, who has sinned? The executioner, the judge/jury, the lawmakers, or the society that supports them (or elected them, depending on system of govt)?
Can a soldier following orders ever commit "murder" or is he absolved of responsibility (in God's eyes) through the human construct called chain of command?
I'm no peacenik by any means - there are plenty of people that I think deserve a lead lobotomy right between the eyes - but I'm curious as to what the Bible says about it (as I'm not nearly as well versed in the Bible as Seagoon is).
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I believe Romans 8 indicates that God has setup all authorities (governments). And it is the government's right to carrry and use the sword.
As for comment about Jesus, I believe that Jesus is attributed as the final judge so therefore He will be the one that makes the final decision on who should have eternal life and who will be condemned forever.
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Hi GTO,
Originally posted by GtoRA2
Can't you Christian haters just leave the poor guy alone? Try and show some tolerance for other views for a change. :rolleyes:
While I appreciate the support. It's ok, in a sense I asked for it by posting the ad here, and whenever I "walk in" to the OC, I know what I can expect. Besides, I haven't earned special treatment and I certainly don't get it anywhere else so why should this place be different? And like I've said before, even the most ascerbic members of the OC are mild and well-behaved in comparison to the vile way I used to treat Christians prior to my conversion.
- SEAGOON
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When ever I read the OC....I realise Heaven wont be near as crowded as some may hope. I'll have some elbow room and no problem getting a tee time at Heavenly Golf & Country Club:)
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Hi GTO,
While I appreciate the support. It's ok, in a sense I asked for it by posting the ad here, and whenever I "walk in" to the OC, I know what I can expect. Besides, I haven't earned special treatment and I certainly don't get it anywhere else so why should this place be different? And like I've said before, even the most ascerbic members of the OC are mild and well-behaved in comparison to the vile way I used to treat Christians prior to my conversion.
- SEAGOON
SG,
It's quite refreshing too see someone stand in a public forum like this and shine an intelligent and knowlagable light on what the Bible says in this day and age.
I applaude you, sir (though I know this isnt what you seek in this posting).
Thanks,
Sun
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Originally posted by Sundowner
SG,
It's quite refreshing too see someone stand in a public forum like this and shine an intelligent and knowlagable light on what the Bible says in this day and age.
I applaude you, sir (though I know this isnt what you seek in this posting).
Thanks,
Sun
:aok
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It's also pretty cool to see someone that clearly has no idea of what the Bible actually says verbally fly off into the outer space of another astral dimension when his Biblical misconceptions are made clear to him.
I enjoy these threads Sea; thanks!
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Remmember God sent David to take out the Giant didnt he? So there for God dose let protection have its room on earth. And wasnt there a fight with I dont know who it was that was fighting but God sent them to fight even though they were out numberd God tould them to not worrie thats as they fought he would be by there side. Not to good on this Bibble stuff by I remmember asking my Preacher if the Lives I had taken In Iraq was ok. And he told me those two stories. And then he told me that It's ok to strike the enemy but only with the permition of my country but not to kill in vein.
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Again, you're essentially asking me to do the conference myself here via online exchanges.
Well, your place is a just a tad too far away for me to attend. Seriously, if it was close, I would. But I am a northern Yurotard.
For what it is worth, in the civil law of Israel, a raped woman was the innocent party and it was her rapist who was the malefactor. The Islamic idea that you punish the victim is not endorsed.
Right. But since such a killing is endorsed by the authorities, it does not constitute murder. Since it is not murder, is it acceptable? My point being that at some point one has to make a judgement.
The Bible simply teaches that the deliberate unjust taking of human life is murder because humans are created in the image of God.
I agree with the Bible here although I question reasoning. If God looks anything like me, he is an ugly one and that doesn't resonate too well to my perception of 'im. The key here is to define unjust. How would you do that? Do the secular laws or laws of other religions matter or is it all in accordance to Biblical new Testament law?
Thanks, very informative. Good info.
We want impossible ideals to make us feel better, not actual commandments to live by. We want a tame, defanged, Santa Claus kind of God, not the righteous and terrifying God of the Bible.
I agree this is what most want. Myself, I would prefer a combination of the two. Problem is with the second part is that is is easily perverted and turned into something akin to what we saw in the Crusades and in the Muslim world today.
Anyway, my question was more related to what constitutes an unlawful killing.
Thanks for taking your time to respond Seagoon. You actually have a pretty good job come to think of it. Sure beats being a cog in the corporate machine, eh?
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I generally enjoy reading your posts, Seagoon, you're one of the few "religious types" I know who can present a reasoned, researched argument and not sound like a total nutjob in the process.
I mean, you've yet to convert me, as I have yet to be persuaded that, for example, the creation story in the Bible is any less a fairy tale then that of the Ancient Greeks, but at least I feel like I'm getting an education as to how learned Christians see things.
Anyway, I hope you keep it up, and don't let the skeptics (myself included) get you down :aok
- Edit, it's too bad the conference is so far away. It'd be interesting to go to. Perhaps next time I'm in the area I'll shoot you a PM.
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Hi StSanta,
Originally posted by StSanta
Well, your place is a just a tad too far away for me to attend. Seriously, if it was close, I would. But I am a northern Yurotard.
Well, I guess come to think of it, I'm a displaced Yurotard myself, at least in the place of origin sense.
I'm sorry you won't be able to make it, recordings of the conference will be available afterwards via the net though, and I'll be willing to discuss the content here.
Right. But since such a killing is endorsed by the authorities, it does not constitute murder. Since it is not murder, is it acceptable? My point being that at some point one has to make a judgement.
Actually, the teaching of the bible is that just because an action carries the imprimatur of a magistrate or a judge, that does not mean that it can't still be an act of murder. For instance, it is clearly taught that the crucifixion of Jesus was in itself "unlawful" and therefore an act of murder. This is reinforced by the description of the Kangaroo court trial in the Sanhedrin and the final decision of Pilate to order Christ put to death even though he had formally declared Him to be innocent of all crimes at least twice. The same is for instance true of King Saul's order to kill the priests in 1 Sam. 22, Jezebel's order to put Naboth to death in 1 Kings 21 and a host of other "unlawful" killings.
The biblical principle (which was also carried over into English common law) was that all authority human authority is derived rather than original. So when a King acts contrary to the moral law, he ceases to be a ruler and becomes instead a tyrant "doing what is right in his own eyes" and usurping an authority he does not have. Judges, and even legislative bodies can do the same thing when they rule contrary to principles of justice.
I agree with the Bible here although I question reasoning. If God looks anything like me, he is an ugly one and that doesn't resonate too well to my perception of 'im.
I take it you're joking here and that you understand what is meant, but I'll go ahead and note that the image of God refers not to physical appearance, but rather to qualities that are not present in anything else in creation, like having an immortal soul and the ability to reason and obey Him. Of course the bible teaches that our resemblence to God was substantially marred by the fall.
The key here is to define unjust. How would you do that? Do the secular laws or laws of other religions matter or is it all in accordance to Biblical new Testament law?
All of the laws in the Bible are intended to be a reflection of the application of God's nature to morals. In a sense therefore when we ask "What would God's nature (the holiness of God if you will) look like if it was expressed in ethical principles?" we have an answer in the Ten Commandments. God does not steal, murder, lie, etc. Our modern civil laws need not slavishly follow the civil laws of the Old Testament, but they should follow rather than reverse the general tenor of the Ten Commandments. If they do, we can say they are"Just" because they follow an absolute standard for Justice and Mercy. So our laws should go against bribery, partiality in judgement, false witness, and so on.
Most of the world's laws, intentionally or not, follow this principle. Those that don't are at best arbitrary and at worst unjust whether or not men in those countries would agree.
Thanks for taking your time to respond Seagoon. You actually have a pretty good job come to think of it. Sure beats being a cog in the corporate machine, eh?
Well, I can honestly say I love my calling and wouldn't want to be doing anything else. I have worked as the corporate cog, I've even worked in politics, and ultimately I can say that while those jobs were more financially profitable, being a pastor is the most worthwhile thing I have ever done.
Anyway, good "talking" to you (that goes for Vudak and the rest). Do feel free to stop by.
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Hi Guys,
I thought I might as well post the announcement for this in the old existing thread rather than starting a brand new one.
The Audio for the lectures at the conference is now available. All of the talks are interesting, but I think you'll enjoy the lectures on the scriptural view of war given by Rick (who was formally an Armored Cav officer and West Point instructor) and the Q&A sessions most. Several of the people asking questions in the Q&A sessions are actually Green Berets (SF) who have multiple combat tours under the belt or members of their family, so this was not an entirely academic exercise for them.
Here is one of my favorite quotes from Q&A session #1 in reply to my follow-up question as to whether Pat Robertson was wrong to advocate assassinating Hugo Chavez: "Well I think that the words 'Pat Robertson was wrong' are generally true and should be given precedent in most arguments."
Anyway, I think that regardless of your perspective you'll find the lectures interesting and I know that they were helpful to the military men in our own congregation - even though they were challenged at points especially by the contention that torture is always wrong.
Here are the lectures in Chronological order:
FRIDAY, AUGUST 25
Rick Phillips - Understanding the Sixth Commandment (http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?currSection=sermonssource&sermonID=83106125746) – The Bible on why not all taking of human life is a violation of the sixth commandment, and why sometimes preserving lives and protecting others from evil, will involve going war.
SATURDAY, AUGUST 26
Tony Curto - God, the King, and the Sword (http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?currSection=sermonssource&sermonID=920601258) – How the Bible teaches that the civil magistrate has been given the sword by God to punish evildoers and to what end.
Rick Phillips - The Christian View of War (http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?currSection=sermonssource&sermonID=83106171727) – Under what circumstances may magistrates wage war and may Christians get involved? Also a discussion of, and response to Christian Pacifism.
Bearing the Sword Conference, Q&A Session #1 (http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?currSection=sermonssource&sermonID=9606171443) – Rick Phillips and Tony Curto take questions from the audience.
Rick Phillips - The Christian Idea of Valor (http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?currSection=sermonssource&sermonID=9106124144) – the example of Christ and not human ideas of glory set the standard for Christians in regard to “valor”
Bearing the Sword Conference, Q&A Session #2 (http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?currSection=sermonssource&sermonID=9606214756) – Rick Phillips and Tony Curto take questions from the audience.
Tony Curto - The Lesser Magistrate and the Theology of Resistance (http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?currSection=sermonssource&sermonID=9506123323) – Dr. Curto tackles the difficult subject of when and if Christians may rebel against the civil magistrate. In this lecture, the strengths and weakness of theories from Samuel Rutherford (Lex Rex) and John Calvin (The Institutes) are examined in detail, and Calvin’s doctrine of the authority of the Lesser Magistrate is defended.
All the lectures on one page can be found here (http://tinyurl.com/nyo92 )
- SEAGOON
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Thanks Seagoon. :)
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My pleasure.
BTW - If any one knows of someone in the military who might benefit from any of these messages on tape or CD send me your address, the name of the lecture(s) and the format you want them in via a PM.
Please allow 1-3 weeks for the disorganized Pastor to be able to get them done and out the door. ;)
- SEAGOON