Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: bagrat on August 11, 2006, 04:27:02 AM
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hows about jus makin everyone take damage,
despite the way it is modeled to send the collision to whoevers comp reads it first, people who try to hit other people or ram while in head-on. lets jus keep it simple
today i was flyin, got my tail shot off and was spiraling to the ground. the guy who shot my tail off decided to fly through me...."i guess". anyway adding injury to insult, "you have collided" it caused me to lose my left wing.
it really doesnt matter that i lost my wing i was already falling to the ground, but ya cant help but think, that jus aint right.
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Yeah. Ive had people collide with me, take off my wing, and they go undamaged!
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Some people just dont *want* to understand, do they?
Youd rather have someone fly PAST you at d100 and take damage?
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Youd rather have someone fly PAST you at d100 and take damage?
maybe u missed the part of the story where i was held completely responsible for a collision while a was falling hopeless to the ground.
yes, yes i would if it meant the same for them.
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bagrat, you were "held responsible" (which is a very misleading expression) for the collision because only you SAW it. If he had seen a colision, hed have had damage as well.
On his computer, he flew PAST you, never even coming close to a collision. So why should HE get damage?
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bagrat, you were "held responsible" (which is a very misleading expression) for the collision because only you SAW it. If he had seen a colision, hed have had damage as well.
yeah i understand, but if AH is gonna attempt to give someone damage for a collision, there needs to be more to it than just whos comp it appeared on. ya know?
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I understand. But unless we manage to make the internet fast (to around speed of light) well have to make do with what we got.
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Real planes can't fly into each other at 300mph and then fly off unscathed. Collisions MUST DESTROY BOTH PLANES!1!!1!1!! :mad:
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The collision model like it is right now is as good as its going to get. If you insist on changing it your really going to whine. Collisions happen so infrequently now but if you change it like you want your gonna cry a river of tears.
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Agreed, if one collides then both should get damage. Low pings should not be penalized because they have good connections.
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There must be 50 threads and hundreds of posts on this subject. The horse has been beaten into mush.
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Hubs:
How's the pot looking?
Bagrat:
Check out THIS (http://www.combathanger.com/MikeThinksPodcast27-6-06.mp3) audio download. Its HiTech himself explaining the collsion model at the con, and it makes things completely clear.
Truth is, there's no other way to do things fairly. There is a simple solution -- if you dont like collisions, then dont collide!
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Mush so fine each grain is only 2 molicules thick.
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What I really love about this whole thing is just how LONG the exact same whines have been recorded. I cant imagnie how HT maintains his sanity having to say the same thing to the same suggestions year after year after year.
From 2001: "Both should Die" and "The Slower Connect Wins Myth" in the same thread! (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=92557&highlight=collision#post92557). HiTech explains and debunks.
2000: The First "Both should go down" complaint... (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5126&highlight=collision) ...which the veterans of other collision systems smacked down.
2000: Why do I always lose the collsion? (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5126&highlight=collision) ...answer...because you're the one who collided!
And here's a very nice discussion by Karnak from 2001:
originally posted by Karnak when some current players were in fourth grade
Shooting and collisions are two totally different things.
Shooting works as follows:
Bob and John are in a dogfight and after a series of maneuvers, Bob manages to hit the right elevator of John's N1K2 on Bob's FE. Bob's FE knows that an MG151/20 round will destroy the right elevator of an N1K2, so Bob sees John's right elevator spin away. Bob's FE informs the server that the damage has occurred and the server then informs John's FE that his right elevator has been hit by an MG151/20 round and destroyed. John's FE then removes his N1K2-J's right elevator. This all occurs in the space of 1/4 to 1/2 of a second.
In the 1/4 to 1/2 of a second that John still has his right elevator on his FE, but not on Bob's FE, he continues to maneuver using it, his maneuvers are then sent, via the server, to Bob's FE. Even though an N1K2 missing its right elevator could not do the maneuvers that John is doing, it continues to maneuver as though it had both elevators until John's FE is informed of the loss of the right elevator, from which point John's N1K2-J follows its new flight model that lacks the right elevator.
It has to work this way because otherwise it would be nigh impossible to hit enemy aircraft. If the hits had to intersect with the target on the target's FE, the attacker would have to guess where the target was on the target's FE. If hits had to intersect with the target on both the attacker's FE and the target's FE on direct 6 o'clock and direct 12 o'clock shots would hit.
Collisions work as follows:
John, now missing his right elevator, continues to turn, hoping that his slower moving N1K2-J can still turn inside Bob's fast moving Fw190D-9 as Bob comes in for another attack. On John's FE he cuts across the path of the onrushing Fw190D-9 with about 100 yards to spare, managing to get through the line of fire without having any more systems destroyed. On Bob's FE John's move is taking place 1/4 to 1/2 of a second later. Bob sees John's break turn, slower because of the elevator damage, and dives in for the kill. Bob presses his attack too aggressively, sees a possible collision and slews his rudder over to try to pass behind John but, unfortunately for Bob, his left wing intersects with the tail of John's N1K2-J, and is ripped off. Bob tumbles down and bails, leaving a damaged, somewhat puzzled John with the victory.
Collisions have to work this way. In the example, John correctly estimated that he had room to cut in front of Bob's Fw190D-9. Bob miscalculated his maneuver and collided with John's N1K2. John should not be punished when he estimated correctly and Bob estimated incorrectly. Likewise, Bob should not be rewarded for his mistake by either destroying John in a collision or by passing through John's aircraft unscathed. Both pilots had a chance to avoid colliding with the other on their own FE, but only John was successful.
If both aircraft were destroyed when a collision occurred people would use this to their advantage. If it takes the attacker 10 minutes to get to your base and you 30 seconds to takeoff and collide with him you can be back where you were 30 seconds later but it will take your enemy 10 minutes to regain what he lost from you colliding with him in a way he could not avoid. After all, on his FE you flew across his flight path 300 yards behind him, why should he have dodged?
On the other hand, if there has to be a collision on both FEs in order to for a collision to occur, then people will simply fly straight through their targets,firing all the way (hitting from 10 feet out is easy), without worrying about colliding. After all,I know that the B-17 I am diving on is, on my target's FE, 150 yards ahead of where it is on my FE. I know there won't be a collision, but I will definitely nail him with by guns as I fly through the image of his B-17.
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I like taking an IL-2 and ramming panzers with it
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Originally posted by hitech
Mush so fine each grain is only 2 molicules thick.
That many? You sure?
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Originally posted by Schatzi
I understand. But unless we manage to make the internet fast (to around speed of light) well have to make do with what we got.
This is why you need to move to the US. Our internet is running at the speed of light here :D
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Actually the speed of light is way too slow. The internet transmits data at 40-60% of the speed of light now.
What we need is a quantum effect where data transmission is instant.
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i have to agree on this one i had 5 planes in a row fly into me on perpos and only i got damage and the blame. this is soooo wrong. they take advantege of the modleing.
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Originally posted by Guyver
i have to agree on this one i had 5 planes in a row fly into me on perpos and only i got damage and the blame. this is soooo wrong. they take advantege of the modleing.
I know what you mean.
Take this example:
I'm in a goon flying along straight and level. Along comes another goon and zooms down on me. He misses me but my FE shows him flying through my tail. I get the "you have collided" message and the other guy does not...even though from my point of view he clearly was the one who ran into me.
So?
Yes, examples such as this one apprear to be "unfair.
Which of these seems the fairest?
1) Both parties get damage
Why am I getting damage when I did not see a collision?
2) Neither party gets damage
Guns blazing free-for-all with no consequences
3) Only the party whos FE saw the collision gets damage
Doesn't always seem fair...but it's the fairest of them all
4) Only the party whos FE did not see the collision gets the damage (in other words if one sees it, the other gets it)
:huh uh, no thanks (imagine the whines on this one)
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:noid :noid :noid
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Originally posted by bagrat
hows about jus makin everyone take damage,
despite the way it is modeled to send the collision to whoevers comp reads it first, people who try to hit other people or ram while in head-on. lets jus keep it simple
today i was flyin, got my tail shot off and was spiraling to the ground. the guy who shot my tail off decided to fly through me...."i guess". anyway adding injury to insult, "you have collided" it caused me to lose my left wing.
it really doesnt matter that i lost my wing i was already falling to the ground, but ya cant help but think, that jus aint right.
Anyone who has to ask this question is completely and utterly clueless as to how the collision model works or how this game works.
There are ample explanations from HT on this BBS as to how all this work. It works the only way it can work that is at all fair.
Look it up before you come here and make yourself look like a "clueless dolt"!
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Originally posted by Clifra Jones
Look it up before you come here and make yourself look like a "clueless dolt"!
Or would that be "stuck on stupid" mode ?
Bronk
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I know the collision model is as good as its going to get. I just get whinney when i lose the a perk plane (On the RARE occurance that I fly one) Because some guy hit me.
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Originally posted by Reynolds
I know the collision model is as good as its going to get. I just get whinney when i lose the a perk plane (On the RARE occurance that I fly one) Because some guy hit me.
You don't lose it because he hit you . You lose it because he had the trigger taped down when HE collided. You take no damage from the collision you just get white text stating that xxx has collided.
I wish HT would remove the white text . I don't care if the other guy collides if it has no effect on me. This I think would remove 1/2 of the whine about it.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Bronk
You don't lose it because he hit you . You lose it because he had the trigger taped down when HE collided. You take no damage from the collision you just get white text stating that xxx has collided.
I wish HT would remove the white text . I don't care if the other guy collides if it has no effect on me. This I think would remove 1/2 of the whine about it.
Bronk
I used to think the same thing, except that then the assumption would always be the orange "you have collided" message applies to both planes. So, you would still have the same people whining "hey, we collided, but I went down in flames and he flew off unscathed." That is to say, it wouldn't help after all.
At least with two messages a person who choses to use half their brain will know whether only he collided or both planes collided.
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You don't lose it because he hit you . You lose it because he had the trigger taped down when HE collided. You take no damage from the collision you just get white text stating that xxx has collided.
well everything is so clear now, my thanks to virgin bronk
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Originally posted by E25280
I used to think the same thing, except that then the assumption would always be the orange "you have collided" message applies to both planes. So, you would still have the same people whining "hey, we collided, but I went down in flames and he flew off unscathed." That is to say, it wouldn't help after all.
At least with two messages a person who choses to use half their brain will know whether only he collided or both planes collided.
If you don't collide you do not get orange text . It's that simple.
People who get the orange text have to get over the fact that they collided not the other guy.
After reading and listening to ht reasoning on this subject. I see no need for any changes to collision model.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Karnak
Actually the speed of light is way too slow. The internet transmits data at 40-60% of the speed of light now.
What we need is a quantum effect where data transmission is instant.
EXACTLY! Even at the speed of light (669600000mph) you still incur about 250ms lag to the far side of planet, assuming you have a direct fiber-optic connection. Even playing on a server 1000 miles away or less will have lag of 10's of ms which at the speeds of the planes and reflexes of the pilots will never be fast enough for "perfect" gameplay.
Bring on the quantum network!
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Originally posted by g00b
EXACTLY! Even at the speed of light (669600000mph) you still incur about 250ms lag to the far side of planet, assuming you have a direct fiber-optic connection. Even playing on a server 1000 miles away or less will have lag of 10's of ms which at the speeds of the planes and reflexes of the pilots will never be fast enough for "perfect" gameplay.
Bring on the quantum network!
Although, you must admit, it's gotten alot better then "check your 6, if it reads 1200 he's really 600."
The collision model currently in the game is perfect. We just have to wait for the internet to catch up now.
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what's the point, reallY?
A) actually encourages the Ho+ram guys in the La7's
B) ruins a good dogfight that's running at the edge of the envelope as two planes drift into eachother
C) isn't implemented for GV's - I constantly have to man my pintle gun to ward off maruding Jeeps that want to park inside my tigger
here's an idea, rather than take damage, how about a colision that simply halts your vehicle? imagine the LA7 that tries to ram you and winds up going from 400mph to 0 ? that would be a laugh!!
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Originally posted by Bombardy
imagine the LA7 that tries to ram you and winds up going from 400mph to 0 ? that would be a laugh!!
:huh
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The funny thing is that you can make a buff formation ram you and die if you know where to park yourself, I can do it more often than not.
The problem is, they can't be shooting back... if they are, parking yourself is a bad idea.
All things considered, the ram model is just fine the way it is.
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I rarely collide - but the last four times I remember it happening are:
2 times I dove down on a buff formation, killed the lead buff in a big "POP' and a drone warped into the lead position and I passed through what should have been empty space - getting a collision -
1 time I was in a verticle fight and neither me or my oponent had enough airspeed to manuver away for eachother and we collided
1 time an La7 came whipping up from below and behind me, pulling up at the last second in front of my plane and I flew through him, overall nice manuver and good timing on his part.
again, there needs to be a collision model for the GV's that don't involve damage - similar to when you collided with a tree
Again - Why even have a collision model for aircraft???? collisions are rare, and ocasionally unfair, and certianly don't discourage Ho's....
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For the zillionth time, if you think the collision model screws you over, then..
[size=10]STAY THE *** OUTTA COLLISION DISTANCES IN THE FIRST PLACE[/size]
How hard is it to understand something as simple as that?
The collision models fine.
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Originally posted by Bombardy
Again - Why even have a collision model for aircraft???? collisions are rare, and ocasionally unfair, and certianly don't discourage Ho's....
Because there would be no maneuvering for angles anymore, everyone would actually fly guns blazing into each other - after all, you canīt collide anymore. Especially when attacking buffs, no skill would be required anymore. Full speed, collision course, you canīt miss at 0ft distance while flying through the enemy bomber at 500mph... sounds like a much better gameplay to me... :rolleyes:
2 times I dove down on a buff formation, killed the lead buff in a big "POP' and a drone warped into the lead position and I passed through what should have been empty space - getting a collision -
- this is more a problem how the game handles the drones (instawarp) than a collision problem
1 time I was in a verticle fight and neither me or my oponent had enough airspeed to manuver away for eachother and we collided
-so the collision was deserved. You got yourself into such a dangerous position and payed the price - just like in real life
1 time an La7 came whipping up from below and behind me, pulling up at the last second in front of my plane and I flew through him, overall nice manuver and good timing on his part.
- this CAN happen, but is rare, and not easy to accomplish deliberately, for you donīt know the total lag of both connections combined. You have to live with it, or make things MUCH worse by dropping collision modeling alltogether
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my point was, in the rare occurances that I get a collision, only 1 in four times I "deserved it"
again, collisions are RARE - and before anyone thinks that the current collision model deterrs people from ramming - think again -
* people who ram will do so no matter what -
* people who just go in guns blazing do it anyway -
* there are LOTS of people who seem uninterested in getting angles on an opponent, just find a local enemy LA7 for your reference
Just like the Death penalty - the collision model in this game is NOT a deterrent
removing the collision model will stop the whines about collision, and that would be a nice change
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You have to chuckle when people complain that others intentionally rammed them but got no damage.
It says alot about reading comprehension.
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well since this thread has become a purse swinger fight. ide like to direct everybodys attention to another thread ive started. it is labeled the "HIGHLANDER" and wondering why AH does not put the highlander into the game.
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Originally posted by bagrat
well since this thread has become a purse swinger fight. ide like to direct everybodys attention to another thread ive started. it is labeled the "HIGHLANDER" and wondering why AH does not put the highlander into the game.
beware of my mighty battlepurse, yer olde threadjacker! :mad:
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beware of my mighty battlepurse, yer olde threadjacker!
battlepurse? WTF! get the hel out of town
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Originally posted by Kweassa
STAY THE *** OUTTA COLLISION DISTANCES IN THE FIRST PLACE
The best distances for firing are 200 and under, once in a great while, I'll ram into their wreckage. However, 90% of the time their peices will slide off my wings sounding like rocks hitting a tin roof.
At those ranges, damage to enemy aicraft is catastrophic and I'll continue to take my chances.
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I have the best solution ever. Just make both planes take damage ONLY if both FE's see a collision. If one of the two FE's does not see a collision...no damage to either party, go ahead and give the FE that saw a collision a message and some noise but no damage. That would be the best solution, no more advantage for having a chitty connection.
Zazen
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As a relative newbie, I am still getting used to (& used by) the collision model, but it is only one of a series of slightly vexing glitches with the game. If in one session I get rammed, killed by buff laser guns, & have trouble tracking warping buff drones----I'll still have had the most fun I can have with a computer & 500 other people without real lives. How many of you have felt your WHOLE night was ruined by a collision??????? At least I get over it & go on with having fun.
-MI- {Shillelagh}
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Originally posted by Zazen13
I have the best solution ever. Just make both planes take damage ONLY if both FE's see a collision. If one of the two FE's does not see a collision...no damage to either party, go ahead and give the FE that saw a collision a message and some noise but no damage. That would be the best solution, no more advantage for having a chitty connection.
Zazen
Hmmmm........I like.
(Not that my opinion matters....just commenting)
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Originally posted by Zazen13
I have the best solution ever. Just make both planes take damage ONLY if both FE's see a collision. If one of the two FE's does not see a collision...no damage to either party, go ahead and give the FE that saw a collision a message and some noise but no damage. That would be the best solution, no more advantage for having a chitty connection.
Zazen
I think the result would be absolute contrary, having a laggy aconnection would be a big advantage:
Letīs imagine you flying a buff or heavy fighterbomber and me desperately & dweebish trying to stop you:
Case A:
Both have very good connections, letīs say about 10ms -> total lag 20ms. Our invisible towed drones are more or less at the same place as our "original" planes. So when I (as a noob unable to shoot you down regulary), the probability is high that both FEs register collision and we both go down.
Case B:
You have the same superb connection, but I have a very laggy one, letīs say 300ms. Total lag is now about 310ms. Now our respective invisible towed drones would be a lot further away from our original planes. Knowing that I have a laggy connection, I can now dive guns blazing THROUGH your plane, because I know that the risk of both FEīs registering a collision is considerable smaller. On my FE I seem to collide with you plane, but not on yours. So no collision, but I was able to shoot you from 0 feet distance and still be able to continue lfly & fight. I took advantage of my internet lag. I bet that this is nothing you would really like to see! With our current collision model, I would go down, for I had collided with you. If you think about it, the current way is still the best possible solution available.
EDITed some minor spelling errors
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Originally posted by Zazen13
I have the best solution ever. Just make both planes take damage ONLY if both FE's see a collision. If one of the two FE's does not see a collision...no damage to either party, go ahead and give the FE that saw a collision a message and some noise but no damage. That would be the best solution, no more advantage for having a chitty connection.
Zazen
good idea. maybe have a set taly pof collision messages that inflict damage after 2 collisions per flight? duno..but i dont like it the way it is now. Fact: There are more complaints about collisions now than there ever were before the implication of the "Collision message"
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Originally posted by Mugzeee
. Fact: There are more complaints about collisions now than there ever were before the implication of the "Collision message"
Yeah, funny. Even though the collision model didnt change at all with the introduction of the messages.
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it's this simple- I pray I have learned this every day............
Originally posted by Kweassa
For the zillionth time, if you think the collision model screws you over, then..
[size=10]STAY THE *** OUTTA COLLISION DISTANCES IN THE FIRST PLACE[/size]
How hard is it to understand something as simple as that?
The collision models fine.
When I was new, lots more collisions;
now just the rare, cockpit to cockpit, barrell rolling scissors collision, and the rare " darned I hit that bomber job "
Learn to merge with the internet not just the target
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Real planes can't fly into each other at 300mph and then fly off unscathed. Collisions MUST DESTROY BOTH PLANES!1!!1!1!! :mad:
yep:mad:
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Real planes can't fly into each other at 300mph and then fly off unscathed. Collisions MUST DESTROY BOTH PLANES!1!!1!1!! :mad:
Not unless i get orange text. Cuz if i don't get text stating "YOU COLLIDED" I avoided it.
Bronk
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Real planes can't fly into each other at 300mph and then fly off unscathed. Collisions MUST DESTROY BOTH PLANES!1!!1!1!!
A suicidal tard comes to ram me. I try hard as I can to avoid it.
Lo and behold, I've avoided the batage, and yet poof, I'm going down. Just because the tard at the other FE saw collision on HIS screen, I am now going down from a collision which never happened on my FE.
How lame is that?
The collision model is fine. It can't be any better.
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It just don`t get any better than this. :rofl
Pass the popcorn.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Real planes can't fly into each other at 300mph and then fly off unscathed. Collisions MUST DESTROY BOTH PLANES!1!!1!1!! :mad:
Real planes don't exist in three separate realities either.
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Collisions must damage both planes. That's the only fair way to insure both planes give each other wide berth.
I went looking for this thread because over the last two days I've been getting hit right and left and I always seem to tumble in a big mess to the ground while the other guy flies away unscathed. The first couple of times were mutal HOs, but after that, getting tired of flying to bases only to be rammed, I started breaking off, diving and generally trying to avoid the other guy who continued flying right at me.
Guess what, despite what I did to avoid rams, they continued to happen.
Today I'm flying around, chasing an LA when a mossie decides to come to his aid. He approaches me at 3 oclock. I continue flying straight. Bam, rammed in the tail. Now on his front end he might have just flown by me and missed, but on my front end, my reality, I had ample room to avoid him. Nothing I could have done in that situation, short of bailing out, could have avoided that collision. I got a "xx has collided with you" message, but he kept flying on unscathed while I headed down to play with the gophers.
People might not want to hear that the damage model is messed up, but it is. it's that simple. That's why this horse keeps getting beaten. When things work in a fair and reasonable manner, horses are free to roam.
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Originally posted by baine1
I got a "xx has collided with you" message, but he kept flying on unscathed while I headed down to play with the gophers.
Which means he shot you as he flew by. You did not take damage from the collision.
Repeating so it will sink in . . .
He shot you. You did not take damage from the collision.
He shot you. You did not take damage from the collision.
He shot you. You did not take damage from the collision.
He shot you. You did not take damage from the collision.
He shot you. You did not take damage from the collision.
He shot you. You did not take damage from the collision.
He shot you. You did not take damage from the collision.
He shot you. You did not take damage from the collision.
He shot you. You did not take damage from the collision.
He shot you. You did not take damage from the collision.
He shot you. You did not take damage from the collision.
He shot you. You did not take damage from the collision.
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Originally posted by E25280
Which means he shot you as he flew by. You did not take damage from the collision.
Repeating so it will sink in . . .
He shot you. You did not take damage from the collision.
He shot you. You did not take damage from the collision.
He shot you. You did not take damage from the collision.
He shot you. You did not take damage from the collision.
He shot you. You did not take damage from the collision.
He shot you. You did not take damage from the collision.
He shot you. You did not take damage from the collision.
He shot you. You did not take damage from the collision.
He shot you. You did not take damage from the collision.
He shot you. You did not take damage from the collision.
He shot you. You did not take damage from the collision.
He shot you. You did not take damage from the collision.
wait let me get this straight, hes taking damage cause he hit him not because he shot at point of intersection
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Originally posted by baine1
People might not want to hear that the damage model is messed up, but it is. it's that simple. That's why this horse keeps getting beaten. When things work in a fair and reasonable manner, horses are free to roam.
Baine, the only thing wrong is that people refuse to understand how it works. Period. That is the reason this horse keeps getting beaten.
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So a guy kills me in a head on whilst shooting at me, we collide but only I die ?
It was a head on for ****s sake ? I saw my hit sprites on him ! I die ?
schatzi quit taking the party line
wipass
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maybee if it didnt tell anyone that another player collided w/ you the assumption would have to be "the bastage shot me"?
just keep the "you have have collided" message so I know when i figured one coat of paint too short
on the other hand these threads are always full of amusing commentary, and I have only been playing since april (I think)
Karnak--- "Real planes don't exist in three separate realities either."
----whoa Imma gittin dizzy now:rolleyes:
someone flying into/inside my plane and letting loose w/ guns and them not taking damage would be the single most disgusting arcade like effect I can imagine at this time
the current collision model makes good sense to me;)
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will someone please tranzliate teh shiznitz ta jive. cliznick the spinnin rim biotches
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If you didn't see an orange message that says "You have collided", then you didn't take damage from a collision. If you see the orange message, you were damaged in the collision. How severe depends on which parts your PC says were occupying the same space occupied by the other plane.
Due to lag, the positions of your plane on his FE, and his on your FE, won't be exactly the same. They will be close, but not so exact that a collision will be recorded by both FEs. At 300mph, you travel 44 every tenth of a second. That is enough of a difference to allow one guy to collide and one guy to get by cleanly.
Basically, don't try to fly through the other guy's plane. If you do, you will likely find that the collision model works exactly like it should.